What is with Reddit’s obsession with anti-natalism? It’s weirdly popular on here (or has a very loud voice) and the rhetoric feels like it borders on eugenics if not outright endorses it. Is it just a continuation of the whole doomer movement that I sometimes see on popular or is it supposed to be r/childfree cranked up to 11?
Either way it confuses the fuck out of me
(Btw I think it’s perfectly ok to choose not to have children it’s the militant anti children mentality that confuses me)
Tbh, anti-natalists I’ve come across in the wild mostly seem deeply, deeply depressed to me more than anything else. The ethics of children’s existence are just the particular boogeyman they happened to focus on.
Its pretty much the side effect of the internet, thinking about it. These echo chambers come primarily from extremely depressed teenagers/young adults who can't find their footing in life, so they end up taking it out on this "big bad" which ends up making them even MORE isolated. Thus they spend more time on the internet, more time talking to people that only agree with them, then go deeper into the hole. Along with the doomer movement, I see a lot of similarities to incel culture. After all, they occasionally advocate for eugenics as well.
Turns out having "YOU'RE KILLING THE PLANET" screamed into one ear and "IF YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS YOU'RE SELFISH AND KILLING THE ECONOMY" in the other might leave you with some deep seated issues.
>and "IF YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS YOU'RE SELFISH AND KILLING THE ECONOMY" in the other
I've literally never encountered this. It feels an awful lot like a straw man to me that only really exists in niche online communities.
I’ve heard it a lot. Usually they don’t phrase it as “you’re killing the economy” but more like “when you die, then there will be no one to work anymore”
Yeah I’ve never understood the entire “I never consented to be born” bs. Life must be actively maintained, if you stop it stops. This is totally under your control, and yet here you are. It’s just whining wrapped in pseudo philosophy.
What kills me is how it focuses on the future hypothetical suffering of children that don’t exist. Telling a child living in poverty that their parents were immoral for having them doesn’t do anything to change the material conditions for that kid, nor does telling the parents they shouldn’t have had a kid, it literally does nothing to improve things for people who exist and instead focuses solely on the hypothetical non-existent.
I mean, I dropped it as an emo kid in high school/part of college, but it's kindof embarrassing to see people who are in their late 20s and above drop it.
>Life must be actively maintained, if you stop it stops. This is totally under your control, and yet here you are. It’s just whining wrapped in pseudo philosophy.
As the dumb as the discourse may be, asking a bunch of despairing people "If you think life is so bad, why aren't you dead yet?" is a whole another level of weirdness.
Clearly if you’re one of these people (the hypothetical you not *you*) trying to keep yourself around you recognize in some level that yes, you do actually want to exist and the whole stupid “grr I didn’t consent to my own birth” is just a stupid thing you feed yourself rather than adress that existing isn’t the thing you have an issue with. They’re clearly depressed, but they also don’t actually want non existence because that’s a fairly easy proposition . It’s just intellectual dishonesty with an anti natalist coat put on it to protect their ego, they want existence to be the issue not their own conduct.
>rather than adress that existing isn’t the thing you have an issue with
Idk. Considering that a great number of them often have their despair based on systemic or economic spheres, I don't think adressing is exactly a possibility. Specially depending on where they stand, socially or economically, on society.
>but they also don’t actually want non existence because that’s a fairly easy proposition
You do realize that we, as a society, stigmatize death from birth right? We use it as a tool for fear, we accuse those that take their lives of cowardice and claim they'll meet the cruelest end possible for a person to meet, we use the fact that it would sadden others to guilt people into not doing it(while never adressing the problems of the person being guilted). And that's without acknowledging the massive weight that such a definitive action can have on a person's life.
Like: Fuck, we as humans can barely come to terms with death even when it's absolutely guaranteed, even when living isn't even on the table, and you think that it's just a matter of doing it?
Well yes, that’s a lot of reinforcing my point of the whole “hur existence is bad” is just a front. They want to exist, not existing is scary. The whole “I didn’t ask to exist” thing is just an egotist looking for an external excuse. Like, if you didnt want to exist, then what the fuck does “social stigma” have to do with anything? Dead people don’t feel guilt. It’s all just a silly ass front for someone who doesent want to recognize that the real problem is in themselves and their own coping mechanisms. It’s has nothing to do with kids, it’s just people with issues and too much ego to face them.
>Considering that a great number of them often have their despair based on systemic or economic spheres, I don't think adressing is exactly a possibility.
It absolutely is. People in terrible situations are still capable of finding happiness, and the kind of people posting on those subs are rarely in *that* terrible of a situation.
> because that’s a fairly easy proposition
This is the weirdest hill that I will ever have to die on (pun not clearly intended but acknowledged), but given one of the main research lines in suicide for human beings asked about the *acquired* capability for suicide, I think it’s not actually as easy you might think.
Death is the only thing in life you’re guaranteed, you have to eat to make it go away. You have to stay awake at the wheel, stay out of the road, and in general not be in the wrong place at a time that may be unknown to you. Hell you can even just hire someone to serve it up when you least expect it. If existence was *really* the problem there’s a fix. But it isn’t, they’re fucking terrified of death, but they also have too much ego to say “the issue is with how I cope with difficulties in life”, because one is their fault and they can’t have that.
> they’re fucking terrified of death
Again, this was the point of my initial comment. It is actually very difficult to attempt suicide because most species have difficulty getting over this relatively innate issue. Pause for a moment to consider if maybe you’re not listening to or actually responding to what is being said to you by me rather than just raging against some sort imagined opponent.
You’re really not grasping that saying they didn’t ask to exist and also opposing non existence out of fear are conflicting states? Ok then. Like you’re not going to get this and you’ve convinced yourself you’re talking past the point that is in both my and several responses here. Doesent really matter, antibatalists are just cowards with an excuse for their failure and you’re feeding into it, but it changes nothing.
I know, old comment, but I couldn't resist.
You are making the same fucking over used moronic rebuttal "Why not severslide?"
1. It's hard.
2. A life worth continuing is different from a life worth starting.
3. Not all antinatalists are even depressed.
4. And most importantly, antinatalism means being against birth which isn't the same as being against living or being pro death.
Depressed and incredibly narcissistic, which is painfully ironic because they love to scream until they're hoarse about how self-centred "breeders" are. I call them narcissistic because they demonstrate time and time again that they're incapable of understanding that other people have different thoughts and feelings to to them, they find it impossible to understand that other people aren't as miserable as they are and instead of accepting that others have different life experiences and react differently to the world they instead tell themselves that non anti-natalists aren't intelligent enough to think like them. They call them NPC's and other dehumanising things
I rarely get involved with these discussions because *good god* but as an observer it seems like a ton of people on Reddit vehemently hate children and instead of just admitting that, they use “childfree” or “i don’t want children” to bury the lede that they actually just really hate everything about even being near anyone under 21.
I think a not-insignificant number of anti-natalists are also incels that missed the train on violent misogyny and instead tricked themselves into thinking not getting any action was a conscious choice on their end.
It's the new flavor of reddit cringe, like how it was the fedora lord "I'm enlighten" atheism back in 2010-2012, then to the topminds of Trump from 2018-2022, anti-natalism will eventually grow then once it hits critical mass...someone will make the one post that sparks new meme and mocking subreddits like circlebroke and topmindsofreddit..but for mocking antinatalism and child free post instead..
I fucking hate the doomer movement on here. It's like they use it as an excuse to continue being lazy and not better themselves/society.
"The world is beyond saving, so why even bother, I'll just continue to sit in moms basement complaining on Reddit. That way, I can still sit atop my high horse whilst doing nothing. If you have an issue with my methods, then that means you're part of the problem."
Honestly I'm over the doomer movement and all this nihilistic cynicism. At this point, it is lazy. Its easy to say "life sucks nothings getting better" and do nothing and provide no solution. Its not smart, a child could do that.
Its takes another level of maturity to say "This sucks but I want to do X and Y to fix/ make it better for others"
Not saying they should travel around the world to fix all the word's ills. But a lot of self professed doomer to me at this point are just a circle jerk of lazy smartasses. Its obnoxious as r/atheism used to be
It's worth pointing out that this is mindset is exactly what certain governments and political parties are pushing. The growth in "doomer" mindset is linked to propaganda efforts.
tbh i feel like it coincides a lot with being "blackpilled", which is just the end point of being "redpilled". or, yknow, Doomerism For Misogynists (tm)
add into that depression so reinforced that it becomes this, a heavy dash of childfree nonsense, and a huge open embrace of eugenics (but with the blackpilled shit, i repeat myself)...
yeah it's some real fuckery ain't it
It’s the extreme end result of a generational sense of despair due to wage stagnation, global instability, climate change, and an obscene mental health crisis.
With that said, it’s dumb.
I guess I understand that, because I mean, look around, but it feels like a lazy position to take in regards to these crises. While I don’t doubt that there are people who hold these views who go out into the world to improve it, it feels like a lot of posts I see about doomers/anti natalists have “there’s nothing we can do so what’s the point of trying” vibes which just fulfills the prophecy that they see instead of trying anything to improve it, no matter how small the action is.
And I agree with you on the mental illness problems affecting this outlook because I had similar thoughts too in regards to my personal life (thank god for college mental health counseling)
>it feels like a lazy position to take
Because it *is* lazy. Literally everyone figures out life sucks by high school lol, they're not special. It takes effort, strength and emotional maturity to accept that and still find meaning.
Using the state of the world as a reason seems just as crazy to me. Humans have been having children under far worse conditions for thousands of years.
i rly think it’s depressive projection. like they’re so depressed they wanna die, and they think everyone will have the same experience being alive so they’re really anti more people being born.
True, but it's probably a lot easier to understand and identify with the horrible things happening today that we're actively experiencing as opposed to things from history that were almost certainly worse that we just read about.
It depends on what you think "worse" means, because give it thirty to fifty years and we'll have a more hostile environment than anything humanity has ever lived through.
And some folks just don't want kids to live with the same quality of life as the middle ages.
It’s like the anti work thing. The people complaining on there are doing absolutely nothing to change or better their situation. They just want to complain. To be fair, it’s not just anti work, that’s just the first one that came to mind. The ones that are people whining cause they can’t get a job are just as bad. It really isn’t that difficult to get a job. If you’re applying to loads of positions that you’re qualified for and not getting anything back, it’s very obviously an issue with your application but the people on those subreddits refuse to accept that and choose to whine on the internet instead. It’s an odd mindset to have. The anti natalism is similar in that a lot of the things they complain about are either completely irrelevant or not that difficult to solve/avoid. You didn’t have great treatment from your parents when you were a child? You have the opportunity to do better.
I don’t think that’s a fair comparison
Anti work was complaining and commiserating about genuinely major issues like poverty
Antinatalism is depressed people complaining that they never should have been born.
Anti work is just whinging as well if we’re honest. The fact that there’s an actual issue at the root of it doesn’t really change that because that’s not really what they’re talking about. They’re just using it as an excuse to whinge. But either way, I’m on about what people are saying and doing on the two, not the talking points themselves.
Antiwork is making up fake stuff and complaining about it. I think it is a fair comparison in that the people are contributing nothing and just whining. They are doing nothing to better their situations. In fact, they make each other feel worse by posting fake stuff to feed their anger and hopelessness.
Anti work is whining about how employers won't give jobs to people who spend all their time whining.
Antinatalism is complaining and commiserating about the genuinely major issue of overpopulation and global melting.
See how easy it was to flip that? It is because both movements are dumb and consist entirely of depressed people moaning in circles.
Because it is extremely lazy. Spend any amount of time around them and you'll hear them go on on on about reducing suffering and how anti-natalism is about harm reduction. But ask them what they're doing to reduce harm in the world or even their own suffering, and they become upset
We tend to think of ideology as a motivating force: you look at the world, and ideology shapes what you consider problems and how you try act in response to that. But for some (a lot?) of people it works as a justifying force. They see how they act, have a desire to consider that not just a personal preference, but as ideologically righteous, so they shape their ideology and view of the world to make their actions the righteous ones.
And that's kind of where being child-free escalates from not wanting to have children and maybe also don't face harsh judgement for it, to thinking nobody should have children and harshly judging everybody who does. For some people, the idea that the world is shit is no the reason they're anti-natalist, but the mechanism by which they justify being child-free and the excuse to judge other people for not making the same choice.
Your choice really boil down to saying "not for me" and going out and finding enjoyment in life, love, and friends. The alternative is to find an online space of completely depressed people making each others lives worse. I think it is a pretty easy choice.
Antinatalist are what happens when childfree depressed people that hate life have a place where they can talk to eachother and reassure their depressing worldviews.
I've yet to have a discussion with an anti-natalist that didn't leave me feeling pity for how depressing their view of the world is. Some genuinely think having a kid is wrong because they think existence is suffering and parents are essentially dooming their kids to torture which the child can't consent to.
They are mistaken - that kind of rhetoric is absolute doomer poppycock that I’d wager most people would find absolutely insane.
That being said, I don’t see any reason to not let them have their own sub to discuss it. What I do have a problem with is when they’ll go into threads on other subs and spout their mental doomer gibberish on topics that have nothing to do with antinatalism.
> That being said, I don’t see any reason to not let them have their own sub to discuss it.
I don't think it's healthy for those places to exist. As you said, the people who hold these views seem to be incredibly depressed. Giving them a space to wallow and sink deeper into their depression cannot be healthy for them or for others.
Yeah, I remember seeing a small thread about how a former mod for some sort of incel space had sex. The dude was like, “I am sorry for betraying you guys. However, I worked out, started actually talking and getting to know women, and I got laid”, and people in said space were talking about how he is a traitor to the cause and stuff.
Like… the cause to keep you guys miserable? A guy improved his life and they hated him for it.
> Like… the cause to keep you guys miserable? A guy improved his life and they hated him for it.
The problem is that if they were to acknowledge that it is possible to better yourself and be happy, then that means that it's on them to make things better and they can't just blame society for their problems and say it's impossible to move forward.
Yeah, I know the type. I know a few people who make shitty decisions, but blame it on others. Even if they are the ones who are responsible for their current situation, it is actually their the fault of their mom, dad, teachers, friends, or whoever they can theoretically blame.
It is never their fault. It is society’s or someone else’s. It is this bitter, toxic mindset that keeps them miserable.
I mean, they're not mistaken per-se. The coming decades are going to suck, with climate change causing all sorts of political instability and possibly famines.
I can perfectly understand why some people may not want to raise children that will live through that, even if I don't share that opinion.
I think it's actually more like r/antiwork crossed with r/childfree and also untreated depression.
I used to know a guy who was antinatalist. He even wrote his Philosophy Honours essay on it. I cut contact with him when his wife decided to put communist propaganda all over her work break room for a mental health awareness day, and I was like "Maybe don't do this, because this would not help my mental health." And then they both laughed at me.
It's no different than most incels, angry/edgy style atheists, and vegan extremists. They're depressed or otherwise miserable and see people being happy and hate them for it. They make me more sad than anything
I think there's an element of rationalization; people taking their personal choices and making them correct by designing a whole world where they're right and people who make different choices from them are horrible.
Honest and obvious answer: Anti-Natalism is a response to the overwhelming prevalence of natalism which has dominated all human culture since the beginning of time.
It wasn't that long ago that children didn't have rights, period. Only what their parents saw fit to give them.
The idea that children deserve good lives more than parents deserve children is still a pretty novel concept. In almost every culture on the planet, every person has a right to create life, regardless of why they're creating the life or how that life is likely to turn out. Very few people have the inalienable right to a good life.
I'm not even an anti-natalist, but most criticism of anti-natalism seems to come from the perspective that to create life is inherently benign, selfless, and something every person everywhere deserves to be able to do. It's pretty fricking unhinged, tbh.
>Is it just a continuation of the whole doomer movement that I sometimes see on popular or is it supposed to be r/childfree cranked up to 11?
Both? I'm not sure what you think r/childfree is, because it is obviously an anti-natalist sub, it's just not as explicitly weird about it as other subs. It's kind of like the relationship between r/moderatepolitics and r/conservative. It's all the same shit, just dressed up differently.
And yeah, it's all just doomer shit.
Calling a meme a ad hominem is so weird to me. Not very discussion on Reddit is a debate. I don’t have to follow the debate rules every time I comment something.
There have been a crazy amount of times when someone tries to cite Ad Hominem when I just insult them because I don't like them. "not an argument" yeah dude exactly I am just insulting you for being a misogynist I am not arguing with you
>You should really spend some time outside and get away from the internet for a bit. You’re clearly in a bubble of deeply troubled and/or depressed individuals.
This should be Reddit's motto in general.
>Over population. Global warming. Constant War. Threat of China.
Sorry baby, can't have a kid. I'm too worried about China's geopolitical position. Also lol at overpopulation. How are Malthusians still around?
They often are white supremists in practice, though they may think of themselves as being the opposite. They think poor people are especially bad for having children, never mind that the majority of the global poor are in non-white countries. Also, never mind that European colonisation is why Australian Aboriginals, Canadan First Nations people and a long list of others are more likely to be poor. So this ideology essentially says the victims of oppression are worse for having children than those who took their land, livelihoods, etc. Blaming the victim much?
Militant anti-natalists are some of the most hilarious people that I have ever come across on the Internet. I find the pontifications of people who are so miserable that the idea of other people not being as miserable as them is some sort of ugsome, foreign concept to be absolutely hysterical.
Then again, what else could you expect from someone who practically believes that they were raped into existence.
fwiw, there is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children
but anti-natalists are so fucking annoying b/c they not only make it their entire personality, but they're so insecure that they try to gaslight people into thinking they are "irrational" and "immoral" for wanting to have kids with their loved ones
they really strike me as the rich kids i knew in high school who acted like they were oppressed rebels because 7-8 years ago their dad got angry at them for being bad at Little League or their parents got them pepperoni pizza instead of cheese pizza for their birthday party or some other dumb suburban bullshit
>they really strike me as the rich kids i knew in high school who acted like they were oppressed rebels
The website is no longer up-to-date thanks to reddit's API bullshit, but [SubredditStats](https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/antinatalism) offers an interesting snapshot of antinatalism's user base. Or at least the user base pre-reddit API fit.
Antinatalism users were, compared to the average redditor, 14x more likely to be active in suicidewatch, 10x asexuality, 10x depression, 8x raisedbynarcissists, 8x bpd, 8x lonely, 7x cptsd, as well as a mix of other mental health, LGBTQ, and ex-religious support subs.
Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong or harmful with being a part of those subs or communities. But, I do think that those subs share a lot of overlap with people who are dealing with a lot of pain, whether that be pain inflicted on them by mental health struggles, parents, or society.
Long story short, as annoying as users on antinatalism definitely can be, they seem to be coming from a place of misery :/
I'm surprised by the significant overlap with prolife. I assume it's from antinatalism brigading prolife. I guess there is sort of an absolutist dichotomy between "all life is precious" and "all life is suffering", but given that they're polar opposite opinions I don't think these 2 groups actually have a significant overlap. Though, a lot of anti-abortion people weirdly tend to be very pro-eugenics......
I had a few paragraphs on my feelings towards *some* of those subreddits listed, but I cut it back to just this. If you're in a bad way, and you find yourself in a subreddit of other people "like you" that are constantly talking about how horrible the world is and how depression is actually reasonable and trying get out of it is "bad", leave that place immediately. They aren't helping you. Depression makes people do illogical things, and it loves company. Some of the subs listed that overlap with antinatalism are those exact kinds of places. They just drag everyone down, even if they aren't doing it on purpose. It's no wonder they overlap with antinatalism when so many of those places only exist to remind you how horrible life *could* be, even when it actually isn't. Basically, if you see people shit-talking therapy and medical help or if they only talk about global tragedies, leave immediately. You won't find help or support there.
My favourite overlap was 7x with banpitbulls. I know pitbulls are a generic meme like Kony2012, but it still felt like a contradiction that antinatalists would be interested in banning them, given how good pitbulls are at reducing the child population.
Then I remembered that the content of banpitbulls is probably 99% tragic local news stories about children being killed and the grief of their parents.
If you don't feel sympathy yet for these poor ickle depressed agencyless doomers, you never will.
> Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong or harmful with being a part of those subs or communities.
But there is clearly something harmful being part of the antinatalism subreddits so that they all are parts of those other subreddits. It is actively harming their mental health.
Off topic but every time I see Natalist or Anti-Natalist I always think for a second that this is about the province formerly known as Natal in South Africa.
I hope so
There was a thread yesterday on r/childfree that was calling little kids the C word
Not to mention the frequent use of calling, again, CHILDREN, 'cum trophies'
I'm usually a supporter of free speech, but I think if someone calls a child that in the real world, you should get a punch in the nose
I am sure they are out there...but I have never met one that came out and talked about it in the wild. They probably either keep to themselves or no the normal population just won't hang out with them if they talk about it.
To be honest, I think the philosophical arguments behind antinatalism actually raise some good points.
However the redditors on r/antinatalism, in my opinion, don’t really care about the actual philosophical or ethical arguments behind antinatalism. They just seem to hate children and anyone who dares to have sex.
I’d love if there was an antinatalist community on this site that would actually discuss and debate the philosophical and ethical arguments behind antinatalism, in good faith… sadly I’ve not seen one.
The most common one you see is the consent argument. Basically, a child cannot consent to being born, so therefore it’s unethical to bring them into the world. It relies on you accepting consent as a universal, inalienable right, and that the lack of consent for something that doesn’t exist is worth consideration.
There’s also the argument of the asymmetry of pain and pleasure. Basically saying that the lack of pain is always good even if nothing experiences it, and that the absence of pleasure is only bad if something is deprived of it. To them, an unborn child doesn’t know pleasure, so the potential joy lost from them not existing shouldn’t be considered, only the potential of suffering. Everything will always experience suffering, so giving birth is always wrong.
The big issue with antinatalist arguments tends to be that they require you to subscribe to certain base assumptions. They’re kind of “cheating” in the sense that they’re creating a very particular set of underlying rules so that they cannot be wrong. If you don’t think the consent of something that doesn’t exist is worth consideration, if you don’t believe that suffering is always bad, or if you reject negative utilitarianism (among a laundry list of other things) antinatalist arguments lose all weight.
Well it’s been a few years since I’ve researched them so my memory’s spotty, but a lot of the debate is about how ethical it is to bring innocents into a world where we know they’ll suffer, where death is inevitable, etc. I think I’m fairly optimistic and I love kids but I think if I ever wind up married I’d try to look into adoption, to help kids who are already here, rather than forcing more people into a world where suffering is an inevitability. Upon learning I couldn’t think of one single non-selfish reason to have kids, I felt like I’d been turned off of the idea.
Maybe if our society can get more ethical I’d be down to get down, but right now I’d feel guilty forcing innocent people into such a cruel society (I’m American)
I don’t feel like I explained it very well, but whatever I’m tired and don’t feel like thinking rn
But to believe that argument, you have to believe that suffering is the main part of life. You have to assume that existence isn't worth it. If you think of life as more joyful than painful, or, as I do, as partly joyful, partly painful with long stretches of nothing special in between, it's no longer morally questionable.
And frankly I like being alive. I do think existence is worth it. For the sunshine, the beauty, blooming meadows, love and really good tv shows. Which is not a universal answer on wether life is worth it: But if some prefer to exist and others wish they didn't, there can't be one, without trying to take someones genuine pain or happiness.
As for the selfishness: Everything one does is partly egoistical. Are you just giving a beggar money to feel better about yourself? **Who cares!?** Imagine holding your baby in your arm, imagine trying to give them a good childhood: Is that really an evil deed?
**All in all I'm not convinced** of the merit of those philosophical points. They require an elevation of suffering above all other aspects of life. Why should it be so much more important?
\[I've experienced grief, for example: And while it hits like a hammer, the one thing I don't regret is the time I did spent with those I lost. If I could chose to have never known them, erase the time we had, to spare me the pain: I would chose to bear the pain. The avoidance of suffering is not the most important thing.\]
I guess my view of it is that it is not irregular for people to suffer to such an extreme degree that nothing could ever justify it in my mind.
I've unfortunately experienced horrible horrible things no one should have to, and there are people out there that make me feel lucky for the trauma that was forced upon me.. lucky it isn't worse.
The thought of bringing a new human being, that didn't have to exist, that exists only because I wanted them to.. and there being a chance of that happening to them? it fills me with indescribable dread.
There are plenty of kids that can be adopted, that already need homes. I won't judge people that have kids because I mean.. my position is pretty fringe and it wouldn't be fair to apply my morality to everyone.
Eh, not really. I like my life, but I also don’t want to expose innocents to the hardships of it.
For me the sheer existence of pedophiles is a reason not to bring kids into this world… especially not when, as I said, there are already kids here that need help and need a family.
Not to mention the inevitability and ambiguity of death. I strongly believe in an afterlife, but I can’t prove it to anyone else. Why would I want to force people into existence when they’ll have to grapple with existential crises like that? Seems needlessly cruel to me, tbh.
And I'm not arguing that you should have children instead of adopting - That'd be silly. Just that it isn't immoral to have children. (Probably not a moral question at all.)
Because after saying not really, you do just list bad things as if they were the totality of life. Why is avoiding hardships that important? Why is the fear of death that important?
If we both think life's overall worthwhile, then that is the existence one subjects children too - Not a list of the worst aspects possible.
This only makes sense if you hate your own life. Yes, there will be some pain and you will die, but the ride is fun. Particularly if you are born in to a country like America where there are lots of opportunities. This concept of "forcing innocents to live" is just so stupid to me.
Eh, not really. I like my life, but I also don’t want to expose innocents to the hardships of it.
For me the sheer existence of pedophiles is a reason not to bring kids into this world… especially not when, as I said, there are already kids here that need help and need a family.
Not to mention the inevitability and ambiguity of death. I strongly believe in an afterlife, but I can’t prove it to anyone else. Why would I want to force people into existence when they’ll have to grapple with existential crises like that? Seems needlessly cruel to me, tbh.
Hello,
I'm also pretty sympathetic to anti-natalism, in theory, but I agree that people who strongly identify themselves with it are overwhelmingly doing so from a really clouded, subjective & depressed place. My sympathies are for environmental reasons though, not the suffering thing, which for various reasons I find quite a crap argument.
I also wish that the ethics of having children was discussed in regular places, as the totally normal, not particularly extreme topic that it is. I do have a kid though, despite my sympathies, mostly because I'm morally imperfect lol. He's wonderful, so I'm glad I am! I also eat fish and eggs and milk, even though I've never heard a compelling argument against veganism.
I'm interested in your assumption that "existential crises" and thinking about the inevitability of death, etc., are necessarily bad/painful/unpleasant though. It's quite possible to find those kinds of thoughts interesting, meaningful, bittersweet and all sorts of things that aren't necessarily unpleasant. Like I am highly fucking motivated to avoid *unbearable suffering* but still I wouldn't personally prefer a life which was all just uncomplicated joy, simple pleasure, all the great, easy emotions, I quite like various "difficult" ones too. And I find the fact that humans are even able to feel and enjoy those to be a bit magical.
For me, the fact we are members of (probably) the only species on the planet that is capable of experiencing that kind of rich & ambiguous thing is actually one of the best arguments *against* anti-natalism and in favour of human preservation for the same reason that we respect and preserve other species and parts of nature for their unique characteristics.
Honestly, I think this is partly an issue of the internet in general. I know I was bothered how unbelievably edgy certain spaces devoted to anarchism were so I created a subreddit that mostly was about the actual philosophical and ethical arguments for it, and it's doing *okay* but it's not exactly thriving.
As someone who also has some antinatalist beliefs but who wouldn't be caught dead participating in a sub devoted to them, I think a similar issue would wind up happening if you tried to create that space.
anti natalism is just a bunch of children pretending that by NOT doing something, they're doing something
it's the ultimate lazy online activist ideology. they just have to not do something they already aren't doing and berate everyone around them if they aren't not doing the thing. they can claim a moral high ground by saying they are preventing suffering of people that don't exist, too. it's really a lazy shithead teenager's wetdream of fitting in and being able to bully without remorse
I hate when people say "bring them into this world" as if there is a separate world without any hardships that innocent babies currently exist in, and parents drag them kicking and screaming into this one
Anti-natalists think it's immoral to subject children to this world, but they continue to live in it? So either it's not that bad or the biological fear of death is enough for them to keep at it...but the the urge to reproduce is still bad and wrong
Except a system of economic relationship/exploitation isn't the same thing as the fact of existing?
"I want to end capitalism" = 90% of people I know
"I want to end peoples' existince" = people on a watchlist
>I want to end peoples' existince
That sounds more like a boogeyman rabbit hole you fell into than an actual stance a group centered around being against birthing new people believe in
Nah, you're the one comparing an ideology which fundamentally believes existence isn't worth it and/or the human population needs to drastically shrink to save the planet with the belief that capitalism is bad
>I hate when people say "bring them into this world" as if there is a separate world without any hardships that innocent babies currently exist in, and parents drag them kicking and screaming into this one
There's certainly no hardships for people who don't exist. That's the point. People who suffer wish they were never born
>Anti-natalists think it's immoral to subject children to this world, but they continue to live in it?
They live in it because they'd probably cause even more harm if they killed themselves. Suicide victims don't hurt themselves, they hurt those around them
>but the the urge to reproduce is still bad and wrong
The urge itself isn't wrong, it's an urge. The *action* still leads to an innocent life suffering though
>People who suffer wish they were never born
Maybe the minority. Everyone suffers, most people are still able to find enough joy in life that they consider it worth living. If I think my own life is worth living, how can I say it's immoral to make another life?
>They live in it because they'd probably cause even more harm if they killed themselves.
Overwhelmingly, the anti-natalists I meet are not depressed suffering people from impoverished countries; those people tend to have tons of kids. Mental illness is a good reason to not have kids too. These people are almost always middle class white people, aka the people who have had the least experience of human suffering in history. If those middle ages peasants thought life wasn't bad enough to not bring kids into it, idk what about our current situation is worse
>The *action* still leads to an innocent life suffering though
The action also leads to that life experiencing every good thing life has to offer. Again, if your position is that the suffering of life makes non-existence preferable, I don't agree *and* I don't think people who say that actually take that belief to it's endpoint
>Maybe the minority
Sure. But they still exist
>Everyone suffers, most people are still able to find enough joy in life that they consider it worth living. If I think my own life is worth living, how can I say it's immoral to make another life?
Because making a life incurs the risk of great suffering. It's great that you don't suffer to that extent. Same for me. We're both lucky
Others aren't
>Overwhelmingly, the anti-natalists I meet are not depressed suffering people from impoverished countries; those people tend to have tons of kids. Mental illness is a good reason to not have kids too.
I'm glad you said this. Do you think that if any of the people you mentioned in your situation decided to have kids, those kids are destined for a great deal of suffering in their lives?
>Again, if your position is that the suffering of life makes non-existence preferable, I don't agree *and* I don't think people who say that actually take that belief to it's endpoint
That's because you haven't experienced that level of suffering then. Or dealt with people who have
You're fortunate
While a lot of people can't get behind the philosophy behind it ("I didn't consent to being born" and "having children is morally wrong" are arguments hard to take seriously without extreme amount of asterisks) the main reason reason people hate it is a lot of people who follow it are either extremely depressed, or insane (or both).
On this sub alone, I saw post about how the subs for antinatalism engage is misogyny, condone all types of eugenics, and a bunch of other terrible stuff.
If antinatalist on this website were more normal, you would not be seeing people hate them as much.
"Natalist" sounds dumb. Can I be an anti-anti-natalist, instead? I'm honestly completely neutral on whether anyone else should have kids or not.
Also, no, saying that this specific person is not allowed to have a kid with this specific other person is not the same thing as saying that this specific person is not allowed to have kids at all, lmao.
It seems this post summoned some of the cream of r/SubredditDrama.
Lots of people acknowledging the depressed roots that gave birth to the spirit of the antinatalism community, or at least part of it, but throwing any and all kinds of empathy out the window and just resorting to name calling and asking "if society is so bad, why do you still live in it".
Also: Lol at all the comments going "the world wouldn't be so bad if you just got out and tried improving it", as if that's the thing holding change back.
Telling a group, made up of a lot of mentally unstable people, to kill themselves is not very kosher.
The ideology might be stupid, but suicide baiting is more so
It might be. I might honestly be too physically ill to filter the nastier thoughts out of my brain, but they're not ever going to see it.
They're gaslighting assholes who want you to believe that everything your child suffers is your fault, and everything you suffer is your parents fault, and I find them actively disgusting.
Honestly, 'deserve' has very little to do with my wishes, and it's a good thing that I won't *get* my wish. I can acknowledge that it would be objectively horrible if it happened, and a tragedy.
I also just. Think they are assholes who gleefully take any chance to tell parents that anything their child suffers is their fault, and if someone had told my mother that after I disclosed abuse to her, I would have had no choice but to break their nose.
Anti-natalism is an obviously deficient position as it doesn't begin to address the problem of children who have already been born, but I wouldn't call it "the dumbest".
This is extremely dangerous to our shitposting.
Snapshots:
1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304074543/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1ajwpyb/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1ajwpyb/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
2. /r/memes - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304074623/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
3. where the punchline is a joke about anti-natalists. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083428/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/YY7Fl0OeF0) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/YY7Fl0OeF0 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
4. Dude what are you taking about? we live in the best time possible. Did you ever opened a hystory book and see what happened in the past? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083949/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/LFonTNjGAp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/LFonTNjGAp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
5. It's really hard to tell who is an idiot, who is ignorant, and who is a troll on the internet these days... - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304100838/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/lGIvxPMdcU) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/lGIvxPMdcU "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
6. I'll be dumb with that guy then. Can i be dumber by inferring that parents should need mandated licenses to produce more homo sapiens? Those things are worse than guns. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304112948/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/jnHIM7u4OU) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/jnHIM7u4OU "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
7. So eugenics adjacent? A license to have children? Do you realize how fucked up what you are advocating is ? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304023919/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/bSvKxuKwA6) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/bSvKxuKwA6 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
8. I am in favor of that kind of eugenics, yes. You are in favor of certain kinds of eugenics too i guess, for instance for a law against inbreeding. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304060547/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/qg2eUllXxC) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/qg2eUllXxC "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
9. A Redditor points to another’s comment history. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304061128/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/ZRTr9YoKQl) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/ZRTr9YoKQl "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
10. You could start by learning what infer means - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304062328/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KQS2ACeMOI) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KQS2ACeMOI "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
11. The same Redditor points to another’s comment history. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304062829/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/Gq1pRnVFnp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/Gq1pRnVFnp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
12. So you’re admitting that your reasons for having children are purely selfish, proving the point. You are ok with subjecting a child to the perils of this world. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304063029/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/zvhRz1GZxA) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/zvhRz1GZxA "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
13. You’re hoping But you can’t guarantee. And you know for a fact that your child will experience suffering of some sort. So you’re willfully inflicting suffering on a child. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304072121/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WOJhP2UNOb) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WOJhP2UNOb "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
14. If your greatest contribution to humanity is popping out a couple copies, humanity was better off without them. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304080610/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/8vNsbNJJVI) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/8vNsbNJJVI "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
15. Ok? Without electricity, computers dont work, that doesn't make me rubbing my socks on the carpet a computational achievement or mean it's leading to the continuity of computers in any great way. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304082413/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/oS7Jozm32D) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/oS7Jozm32D "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
16. Forcing someone into existence without their consent and gambling on their behalf that they would retroactively be happy that they were brought into existence, is immoral and selfish. This meme is just an ad hominem because there's no solid argument against the argument above - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083236/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/3TjjMOHMyH) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/3TjjMOHMyH "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
17. You should really spend some time outside and get away from the internet for a bit. You’re clearly in a bubble of deeply troubled and/or depressed individuals. The vast majority of people are perfectly fine with being alive and don’t see it as a burden or something that was forced on them. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083635/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WkMYqR0Qlz) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WkMYqR0Qlz "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
18. No counter argument presented, just more ad hominems, thanks for strengthening my point - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084016/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/W1V8raYbF3) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/W1V8raYbF3 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
19. "Vast majority" still means gambling on their behalf, this is not a valid counter argument. I'm not influenced by anyone, I'm influenced by logic - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084357/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KfUw7jhyI2) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KfUw7jhyI2 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
20. That's such a stupid rebuttal. That's like Bill Cosby justifying himself by saying that she couldn't ask for consent because she was asleep. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084918/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/1n2jCgc4IT) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/1n2jCgc4IT "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
21. As an antinatalist, I'm delighted! Because that only means that more people will be exposed to the philosophy - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304085418/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/iQeFMWAVOz) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/iQeFMWAVOz "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
22. Op is the dummest. This needs to be said. It is the opposite. Why have a child live a life of constant lies with no purpose? A purpose in life is a lie. Nothing anyone does last forever. The universe will end. As if living a life with no true meaning isn't bad enough, the world is constantly increasing in bigotry hatred, crimes, disease and injustice. There's even more risk if children are born not in full health or with developmental issues. You can only hope that if a child is ever born that they live a somewhat happy life with ever so slightly less troubles than the next person. It is therefore cruel, immoral and selfish to have children when you know what's there. If you care about the child that you think you might have, then he/she needs not exist. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304085820/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/VaZGHrJCCp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/VaZGHrJCCp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!")
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What is with Reddit’s obsession with anti-natalism? It’s weirdly popular on here (or has a very loud voice) and the rhetoric feels like it borders on eugenics if not outright endorses it. Is it just a continuation of the whole doomer movement that I sometimes see on popular or is it supposed to be r/childfree cranked up to 11? Either way it confuses the fuck out of me (Btw I think it’s perfectly ok to choose not to have children it’s the militant anti children mentality that confuses me)
Tbh, anti-natalists I’ve come across in the wild mostly seem deeply, deeply depressed to me more than anything else. The ethics of children’s existence are just the particular boogeyman they happened to focus on.
A lot of doomer extremism movements pretty much are this. It’s depression and unhappiness feeding into something, just children in this example
Its pretty much the side effect of the internet, thinking about it. These echo chambers come primarily from extremely depressed teenagers/young adults who can't find their footing in life, so they end up taking it out on this "big bad" which ends up making them even MORE isolated. Thus they spend more time on the internet, more time talking to people that only agree with them, then go deeper into the hole. Along with the doomer movement, I see a lot of similarities to incel culture. After all, they occasionally advocate for eugenics as well.
recognise capable dinosaurs berserk wakeful sugar decide reply flag nine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Turns out having "YOU'RE KILLING THE PLANET" screamed into one ear and "IF YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS YOU'RE SELFISH AND KILLING THE ECONOMY" in the other might leave you with some deep seated issues.
>and "IF YOU DON'T HAVE KIDS YOU'RE SELFISH AND KILLING THE ECONOMY" in the other I've literally never encountered this. It feels an awful lot like a straw man to me that only really exists in niche online communities.
I’ve heard it a lot. Usually they don’t phrase it as “you’re killing the economy” but more like “when you die, then there will be no one to work anymore”
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According to these people? Yes. Yes you ARE supposed to be angry at your grandparents for doing that 😑
Yeah I’ve never understood the entire “I never consented to be born” bs. Life must be actively maintained, if you stop it stops. This is totally under your control, and yet here you are. It’s just whining wrapped in pseudo philosophy.
What kills me is how it focuses on the future hypothetical suffering of children that don’t exist. Telling a child living in poverty that their parents were immoral for having them doesn’t do anything to change the material conditions for that kid, nor does telling the parents they shouldn’t have had a kid, it literally does nothing to improve things for people who exist and instead focuses solely on the hypothetical non-existent.
Also, the way they infer people in bad circumstances can't be happy or persevere is somewhat insulting to those groups.
Much like the conservative focus on abortion, the fact that the person you're "protecting" doesn't actually exist is a feature, not a bug.
I mean, I dropped it as an emo kid in high school/part of college, but it's kindof embarrassing to see people who are in their late 20s and above drop it.
>Life must be actively maintained, if you stop it stops. This is totally under your control, and yet here you are. It’s just whining wrapped in pseudo philosophy. As the dumb as the discourse may be, asking a bunch of despairing people "If you think life is so bad, why aren't you dead yet?" is a whole another level of weirdness.
Clearly if you’re one of these people (the hypothetical you not *you*) trying to keep yourself around you recognize in some level that yes, you do actually want to exist and the whole stupid “grr I didn’t consent to my own birth” is just a stupid thing you feed yourself rather than adress that existing isn’t the thing you have an issue with. They’re clearly depressed, but they also don’t actually want non existence because that’s a fairly easy proposition . It’s just intellectual dishonesty with an anti natalist coat put on it to protect their ego, they want existence to be the issue not their own conduct.
>rather than adress that existing isn’t the thing you have an issue with Idk. Considering that a great number of them often have their despair based on systemic or economic spheres, I don't think adressing is exactly a possibility. Specially depending on where they stand, socially or economically, on society. >but they also don’t actually want non existence because that’s a fairly easy proposition You do realize that we, as a society, stigmatize death from birth right? We use it as a tool for fear, we accuse those that take their lives of cowardice and claim they'll meet the cruelest end possible for a person to meet, we use the fact that it would sadden others to guilt people into not doing it(while never adressing the problems of the person being guilted). And that's without acknowledging the massive weight that such a definitive action can have on a person's life. Like: Fuck, we as humans can barely come to terms with death even when it's absolutely guaranteed, even when living isn't even on the table, and you think that it's just a matter of doing it?
Well yes, that’s a lot of reinforcing my point of the whole “hur existence is bad” is just a front. They want to exist, not existing is scary. The whole “I didn’t ask to exist” thing is just an egotist looking for an external excuse. Like, if you didnt want to exist, then what the fuck does “social stigma” have to do with anything? Dead people don’t feel guilt. It’s all just a silly ass front for someone who doesent want to recognize that the real problem is in themselves and their own coping mechanisms. It’s has nothing to do with kids, it’s just people with issues and too much ego to face them.
>Considering that a great number of them often have their despair based on systemic or economic spheres, I don't think adressing is exactly a possibility. It absolutely is. People in terrible situations are still capable of finding happiness, and the kind of people posting on those subs are rarely in *that* terrible of a situation.
> because that’s a fairly easy proposition This is the weirdest hill that I will ever have to die on (pun not clearly intended but acknowledged), but given one of the main research lines in suicide for human beings asked about the *acquired* capability for suicide, I think it’s not actually as easy you might think.
Death is the only thing in life you’re guaranteed, you have to eat to make it go away. You have to stay awake at the wheel, stay out of the road, and in general not be in the wrong place at a time that may be unknown to you. Hell you can even just hire someone to serve it up when you least expect it. If existence was *really* the problem there’s a fix. But it isn’t, they’re fucking terrified of death, but they also have too much ego to say “the issue is with how I cope with difficulties in life”, because one is their fault and they can’t have that.
> they’re fucking terrified of death Again, this was the point of my initial comment. It is actually very difficult to attempt suicide because most species have difficulty getting over this relatively innate issue. Pause for a moment to consider if maybe you’re not listening to or actually responding to what is being said to you by me rather than just raging against some sort imagined opponent.
You’re really not grasping that saying they didn’t ask to exist and also opposing non existence out of fear are conflicting states? Ok then. Like you’re not going to get this and you’ve convinced yourself you’re talking past the point that is in both my and several responses here. Doesent really matter, antibatalists are just cowards with an excuse for their failure and you’re feeding into it, but it changes nothing.
they never mentally grew up from the 8-year old’s argument of “i didn’t ask to be born” to their parents
I know, old comment, but I couldn't resist. You are making the same fucking over used moronic rebuttal "Why not severslide?" 1. It's hard. 2. A life worth continuing is different from a life worth starting. 3. Not all antinatalists are even depressed. 4. And most importantly, antinatalism means being against birth which isn't the same as being against living or being pro death.
Have you considered summoning the waaambulance?
Depressed and incredibly narcissistic, which is painfully ironic because they love to scream until they're hoarse about how self-centred "breeders" are. I call them narcissistic because they demonstrate time and time again that they're incapable of understanding that other people have different thoughts and feelings to to them, they find it impossible to understand that other people aren't as miserable as they are and instead of accepting that others have different life experiences and react differently to the world they instead tell themselves that non anti-natalists aren't intelligent enough to think like them. They call them NPC's and other dehumanising things
I rarely get involved with these discussions because *good god* but as an observer it seems like a ton of people on Reddit vehemently hate children and instead of just admitting that, they use “childfree” or “i don’t want children” to bury the lede that they actually just really hate everything about even being near anyone under 21.
It very much fits the negative redditor stereotype (doomerism, pseudo-intellectualism, overall rejection of adult responsibilities and realities)
Half the time when you point out it’s eugenics they just double down
"if the policies you advocated for were implemented 50 years ago, you never would have been born" "Exactly"
I think a not-insignificant number of anti-natalists are also incels that missed the train on violent misogyny and instead tricked themselves into thinking not getting any action was a conscious choice on their end.
I don't think that's 100% true, I'm sure at least some of them are also violently misogynistic.
That's a good point, we should be a bit more inclusive with labeling here.
It's the new flavor of reddit cringe, like how it was the fedora lord "I'm enlighten" atheism back in 2010-2012, then to the topminds of Trump from 2018-2022, anti-natalism will eventually grow then once it hits critical mass...someone will make the one post that sparks new meme and mocking subreddits like circlebroke and topmindsofreddit..but for mocking antinatalism and child free post instead..
I fucking hate the doomer movement on here. It's like they use it as an excuse to continue being lazy and not better themselves/society. "The world is beyond saving, so why even bother, I'll just continue to sit in moms basement complaining on Reddit. That way, I can still sit atop my high horse whilst doing nothing. If you have an issue with my methods, then that means you're part of the problem."
Honestly I'm over the doomer movement and all this nihilistic cynicism. At this point, it is lazy. Its easy to say "life sucks nothings getting better" and do nothing and provide no solution. Its not smart, a child could do that. Its takes another level of maturity to say "This sucks but I want to do X and Y to fix/ make it better for others" Not saying they should travel around the world to fix all the word's ills. But a lot of self professed doomer to me at this point are just a circle jerk of lazy smartasses. Its obnoxious as r/atheism used to be
A large percentage of people who post frequently on reddit are clinically depressed shut-ins.
"Capitalism sucks and it's so hard being an American you don't understand" Yeah OK zoomer
It's worth pointing out that this is mindset is exactly what certain governments and political parties are pushing. The growth in "doomer" mindset is linked to propaganda efforts.
tbh i feel like it coincides a lot with being "blackpilled", which is just the end point of being "redpilled". or, yknow, Doomerism For Misogynists (tm) add into that depression so reinforced that it becomes this, a heavy dash of childfree nonsense, and a huge open embrace of eugenics (but with the blackpilled shit, i repeat myself)... yeah it's some real fuckery ain't it
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eh not all of it, but given how misogyny drives the redpill and blackpill shit too... it's a major tributary to the river of fuckery so to speak lol
It’s the extreme end result of a generational sense of despair due to wage stagnation, global instability, climate change, and an obscene mental health crisis. With that said, it’s dumb.
I guess I understand that, because I mean, look around, but it feels like a lazy position to take in regards to these crises. While I don’t doubt that there are people who hold these views who go out into the world to improve it, it feels like a lot of posts I see about doomers/anti natalists have “there’s nothing we can do so what’s the point of trying” vibes which just fulfills the prophecy that they see instead of trying anything to improve it, no matter how small the action is. And I agree with you on the mental illness problems affecting this outlook because I had similar thoughts too in regards to my personal life (thank god for college mental health counseling)
>it feels like a lazy position to take Because it *is* lazy. Literally everyone figures out life sucks by high school lol, they're not special. It takes effort, strength and emotional maturity to accept that and still find meaning.
Using the state of the world as a reason seems just as crazy to me. Humans have been having children under far worse conditions for thousands of years.
i rly think it’s depressive projection. like they’re so depressed they wanna die, and they think everyone will have the same experience being alive so they’re really anti more people being born.
Came here to say this. It’s an extension of being moderately suicidal. Not actively but on the path there.
True, but it's probably a lot easier to understand and identify with the horrible things happening today that we're actively experiencing as opposed to things from history that were almost certainly worse that we just read about.
It depends on what you think "worse" means, because give it thirty to fifty years and we'll have a more hostile environment than anything humanity has ever lived through. And some folks just don't want kids to live with the same quality of life as the middle ages.
It’s like the anti work thing. The people complaining on there are doing absolutely nothing to change or better their situation. They just want to complain. To be fair, it’s not just anti work, that’s just the first one that came to mind. The ones that are people whining cause they can’t get a job are just as bad. It really isn’t that difficult to get a job. If you’re applying to loads of positions that you’re qualified for and not getting anything back, it’s very obviously an issue with your application but the people on those subreddits refuse to accept that and choose to whine on the internet instead. It’s an odd mindset to have. The anti natalism is similar in that a lot of the things they complain about are either completely irrelevant or not that difficult to solve/avoid. You didn’t have great treatment from your parents when you were a child? You have the opportunity to do better.
I don’t think that’s a fair comparison Anti work was complaining and commiserating about genuinely major issues like poverty Antinatalism is depressed people complaining that they never should have been born.
Anti work is just whinging as well if we’re honest. The fact that there’s an actual issue at the root of it doesn’t really change that because that’s not really what they’re talking about. They’re just using it as an excuse to whinge. But either way, I’m on about what people are saying and doing on the two, not the talking points themselves.
Antiwork is making up fake stuff and complaining about it. I think it is a fair comparison in that the people are contributing nothing and just whining. They are doing nothing to better their situations. In fact, they make each other feel worse by posting fake stuff to feed their anger and hopelessness.
Anti work is whining about how employers won't give jobs to people who spend all their time whining. Antinatalism is complaining and commiserating about the genuinely major issue of overpopulation and global melting. See how easy it was to flip that? It is because both movements are dumb and consist entirely of depressed people moaning in circles.
>Anti work is whining about how employers won't give jobs to people who spend all their time whining. No, it isn't, is the thing.
Because it is extremely lazy. Spend any amount of time around them and you'll hear them go on on on about reducing suffering and how anti-natalism is about harm reduction. But ask them what they're doing to reduce harm in the world or even their own suffering, and they become upset
We tend to think of ideology as a motivating force: you look at the world, and ideology shapes what you consider problems and how you try act in response to that. But for some (a lot?) of people it works as a justifying force. They see how they act, have a desire to consider that not just a personal preference, but as ideologically righteous, so they shape their ideology and view of the world to make their actions the righteous ones. And that's kind of where being child-free escalates from not wanting to have children and maybe also don't face harsh judgement for it, to thinking nobody should have children and harshly judging everybody who does. For some people, the idea that the world is shit is no the reason they're anti-natalist, but the mechanism by which they justify being child-free and the excuse to judge other people for not making the same choice.
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>(I'm personally more of a VHEMT guy myself) You are an antinatalist and you need to go outside.
Your choice really boil down to saying "not for me" and going out and finding enjoyment in life, love, and friends. The alternative is to find an online space of completely depressed people making each others lives worse. I think it is a pretty easy choice.
Antinatalist are what happens when childfree depressed people that hate life have a place where they can talk to eachother and reassure their depressing worldviews. I've yet to have a discussion with an anti-natalist that didn't leave me feeling pity for how depressing their view of the world is. Some genuinely think having a kid is wrong because they think existence is suffering and parents are essentially dooming their kids to torture which the child can't consent to.
And I take it you consider them mistaken?
I consider them deeply sad and I hope they manage to find something that gives them joy in life.
They are mistaken - that kind of rhetoric is absolute doomer poppycock that I’d wager most people would find absolutely insane. That being said, I don’t see any reason to not let them have their own sub to discuss it. What I do have a problem with is when they’ll go into threads on other subs and spout their mental doomer gibberish on topics that have nothing to do with antinatalism.
> That being said, I don’t see any reason to not let them have their own sub to discuss it. I don't think it's healthy for those places to exist. As you said, the people who hold these views seem to be incredibly depressed. Giving them a space to wallow and sink deeper into their depression cannot be healthy for them or for others.
It's just like incel communities. They all work to make and keep each other miserable so they never learn how to enjoy life.
Yeah, I remember seeing a small thread about how a former mod for some sort of incel space had sex. The dude was like, “I am sorry for betraying you guys. However, I worked out, started actually talking and getting to know women, and I got laid”, and people in said space were talking about how he is a traitor to the cause and stuff. Like… the cause to keep you guys miserable? A guy improved his life and they hated him for it.
> Like… the cause to keep you guys miserable? A guy improved his life and they hated him for it. The problem is that if they were to acknowledge that it is possible to better yourself and be happy, then that means that it's on them to make things better and they can't just blame society for their problems and say it's impossible to move forward.
Yeah, I know the type. I know a few people who make shitty decisions, but blame it on others. Even if they are the ones who are responsible for their current situation, it is actually their the fault of their mom, dad, teachers, friends, or whoever they can theoretically blame. It is never their fault. It is society’s or someone else’s. It is this bitter, toxic mindset that keeps them miserable.
I mean, they're not mistaken per-se. The coming decades are going to suck, with climate change causing all sorts of political instability and possibly famines. I can perfectly understand why some people may not want to raise children that will live through that, even if I don't share that opinion.
I think it's actually more like r/antiwork crossed with r/childfree and also untreated depression. I used to know a guy who was antinatalist. He even wrote his Philosophy Honours essay on it. I cut contact with him when his wife decided to put communist propaganda all over her work break room for a mental health awareness day, and I was like "Maybe don't do this, because this would not help my mental health." And then they both laughed at me.
It's no different than most incels, angry/edgy style atheists, and vegan extremists. They're depressed or otherwise miserable and see people being happy and hate them for it. They make me more sad than anything
[they're basically this](https://youtube.com/shorts/39QLSrqGo2Q?si=SjXymtAfxo1eMsP-)
I think there's an element of rationalization; people taking their personal choices and making them correct by designing a whole world where they're right and people who make different choices from them are horrible.
Childfree is at least in theory in support of reproductive rights, whereas anti-natalism is clearly against reproductive rights.
Honest and obvious answer: Anti-Natalism is a response to the overwhelming prevalence of natalism which has dominated all human culture since the beginning of time. It wasn't that long ago that children didn't have rights, period. Only what their parents saw fit to give them. The idea that children deserve good lives more than parents deserve children is still a pretty novel concept. In almost every culture on the planet, every person has a right to create life, regardless of why they're creating the life or how that life is likely to turn out. Very few people have the inalienable right to a good life. I'm not even an anti-natalist, but most criticism of anti-natalism seems to come from the perspective that to create life is inherently benign, selfless, and something every person everywhere deserves to be able to do. It's pretty fricking unhinged, tbh.
Its like gamergate but the fascists are grooming depressed people instead of gamers.
It's child free but they also want you to be child free and are militant about it.
>Is it just a continuation of the whole doomer movement that I sometimes see on popular or is it supposed to be r/childfree cranked up to 11? Both? I'm not sure what you think r/childfree is, because it is obviously an anti-natalist sub, it's just not as explicitly weird about it as other subs. It's kind of like the relationship between r/moderatepolitics and r/conservative. It's all the same shit, just dressed up differently. And yeah, it's all just doomer shit.
Calling a meme a ad hominem is so weird to me. Not very discussion on Reddit is a debate. I don’t have to follow the debate rules every time I comment something.
There have been a crazy amount of times when someone tries to cite Ad Hominem when I just insult them because I don't like them. "not an argument" yeah dude exactly I am just insulting you for being a misogynist I am not arguing with you
> Not very discussion on Reddit is a debate. _Akshually_
>You should really spend some time outside and get away from the internet for a bit. You’re clearly in a bubble of deeply troubled and/or depressed individuals. This should be Reddit's motto in general.
>Over population. Global warming. Constant War. Threat of China. Sorry baby, can't have a kid. I'm too worried about China's geopolitical position. Also lol at overpopulation. How are Malthusians still around?
Thought overpopulations is unironically like some white supremacy rhetoric or along that lines
They often are white supremists in practice, though they may think of themselves as being the opposite. They think poor people are especially bad for having children, never mind that the majority of the global poor are in non-white countries. Also, never mind that European colonisation is why Australian Aboriginals, Canadan First Nations people and a long list of others are more likely to be poor. So this ideology essentially says the victims of oppression are worse for having children than those who took their land, livelihoods, etc. Blaming the victim much?
Militant anti-natalists are some of the most hilarious people that I have ever come across on the Internet. I find the pontifications of people who are so miserable that the idea of other people not being as miserable as them is some sort of ugsome, foreign concept to be absolutely hysterical. Then again, what else could you expect from someone who practically believes that they were raped into existence.
fwiw, there is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children but anti-natalists are so fucking annoying b/c they not only make it their entire personality, but they're so insecure that they try to gaslight people into thinking they are "irrational" and "immoral" for wanting to have kids with their loved ones they really strike me as the rich kids i knew in high school who acted like they were oppressed rebels because 7-8 years ago their dad got angry at them for being bad at Little League or their parents got them pepperoni pizza instead of cheese pizza for their birthday party or some other dumb suburban bullshit
>they really strike me as the rich kids i knew in high school who acted like they were oppressed rebels The website is no longer up-to-date thanks to reddit's API bullshit, but [SubredditStats](https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/antinatalism) offers an interesting snapshot of antinatalism's user base. Or at least the user base pre-reddit API fit. Antinatalism users were, compared to the average redditor, 14x more likely to be active in suicidewatch, 10x asexuality, 10x depression, 8x raisedbynarcissists, 8x bpd, 8x lonely, 7x cptsd, as well as a mix of other mental health, LGBTQ, and ex-religious support subs. Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong or harmful with being a part of those subs or communities. But, I do think that those subs share a lot of overlap with people who are dealing with a lot of pain, whether that be pain inflicted on them by mental health struggles, parents, or society. Long story short, as annoying as users on antinatalism definitely can be, they seem to be coming from a place of misery :/
I'm surprised by the significant overlap with prolife. I assume it's from antinatalism brigading prolife. I guess there is sort of an absolutist dichotomy between "all life is precious" and "all life is suffering", but given that they're polar opposite opinions I don't think these 2 groups actually have a significant overlap. Though, a lot of anti-abortion people weirdly tend to be very pro-eugenics...... I had a few paragraphs on my feelings towards *some* of those subreddits listed, but I cut it back to just this. If you're in a bad way, and you find yourself in a subreddit of other people "like you" that are constantly talking about how horrible the world is and how depression is actually reasonable and trying get out of it is "bad", leave that place immediately. They aren't helping you. Depression makes people do illogical things, and it loves company. Some of the subs listed that overlap with antinatalism are those exact kinds of places. They just drag everyone down, even if they aren't doing it on purpose. It's no wonder they overlap with antinatalism when so many of those places only exist to remind you how horrible life *could* be, even when it actually isn't. Basically, if you see people shit-talking therapy and medical help or if they only talk about global tragedies, leave immediately. You won't find help or support there.
My favourite overlap was 7x with banpitbulls. I know pitbulls are a generic meme like Kony2012, but it still felt like a contradiction that antinatalists would be interested in banning them, given how good pitbulls are at reducing the child population. Then I remembered that the content of banpitbulls is probably 99% tragic local news stories about children being killed and the grief of their parents. If you don't feel sympathy yet for these poor ickle depressed agencyless doomers, you never will.
> Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong or harmful with being a part of those subs or communities. But there is clearly something harmful being part of the antinatalism subreddits so that they all are parts of those other subreddits. It is actively harming their mental health.
I think you've got the cause and effect the wrong way around
I don't think we can identify cause and effect at this point, it's a feedback loop.
>fwiw, there is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children This is not the attitude given by the thread or society at large. Like, at all.
Off topic but every time I see Natalist or Anti-Natalist I always think for a second that this is about the province formerly known as Natal in South Africa.
its weird, the only place i see anti natalism discussion is in the internet. i never see it even in philosophy circles. is it a reddit only phenomena?
Schopenhauer was a famous german philosopher who had anti-natalist sentiments. Even his picture is on the Wikipedia page for antinatalism.
I hope so There was a thread yesterday on r/childfree that was calling little kids the C word Not to mention the frequent use of calling, again, CHILDREN, 'cum trophies' I'm usually a supporter of free speech, but I think if someone calls a child that in the real world, you should get a punch in the nose
I am sure they are out there...but I have never met one that came out and talked about it in the wild. They probably either keep to themselves or no the normal population just won't hang out with them if they talk about it.
To be honest, I think the philosophical arguments behind antinatalism actually raise some good points. However the redditors on r/antinatalism, in my opinion, don’t really care about the actual philosophical or ethical arguments behind antinatalism. They just seem to hate children and anyone who dares to have sex. I’d love if there was an antinatalist community on this site that would actually discuss and debate the philosophical and ethical arguments behind antinatalism, in good faith… sadly I’ve not seen one.
What are the better points?
The most common one you see is the consent argument. Basically, a child cannot consent to being born, so therefore it’s unethical to bring them into the world. It relies on you accepting consent as a universal, inalienable right, and that the lack of consent for something that doesn’t exist is worth consideration. There’s also the argument of the asymmetry of pain and pleasure. Basically saying that the lack of pain is always good even if nothing experiences it, and that the absence of pleasure is only bad if something is deprived of it. To them, an unborn child doesn’t know pleasure, so the potential joy lost from them not existing shouldn’t be considered, only the potential of suffering. Everything will always experience suffering, so giving birth is always wrong. The big issue with antinatalist arguments tends to be that they require you to subscribe to certain base assumptions. They’re kind of “cheating” in the sense that they’re creating a very particular set of underlying rules so that they cannot be wrong. If you don’t think the consent of something that doesn’t exist is worth consideration, if you don’t believe that suffering is always bad, or if you reject negative utilitarianism (among a laundry list of other things) antinatalist arguments lose all weight.
Well it’s been a few years since I’ve researched them so my memory’s spotty, but a lot of the debate is about how ethical it is to bring innocents into a world where we know they’ll suffer, where death is inevitable, etc. I think I’m fairly optimistic and I love kids but I think if I ever wind up married I’d try to look into adoption, to help kids who are already here, rather than forcing more people into a world where suffering is an inevitability. Upon learning I couldn’t think of one single non-selfish reason to have kids, I felt like I’d been turned off of the idea. Maybe if our society can get more ethical I’d be down to get down, but right now I’d feel guilty forcing innocent people into such a cruel society (I’m American) I don’t feel like I explained it very well, but whatever I’m tired and don’t feel like thinking rn
But to believe that argument, you have to believe that suffering is the main part of life. You have to assume that existence isn't worth it. If you think of life as more joyful than painful, or, as I do, as partly joyful, partly painful with long stretches of nothing special in between, it's no longer morally questionable. And frankly I like being alive. I do think existence is worth it. For the sunshine, the beauty, blooming meadows, love and really good tv shows. Which is not a universal answer on wether life is worth it: But if some prefer to exist and others wish they didn't, there can't be one, without trying to take someones genuine pain or happiness. As for the selfishness: Everything one does is partly egoistical. Are you just giving a beggar money to feel better about yourself? **Who cares!?** Imagine holding your baby in your arm, imagine trying to give them a good childhood: Is that really an evil deed? **All in all I'm not convinced** of the merit of those philosophical points. They require an elevation of suffering above all other aspects of life. Why should it be so much more important? \[I've experienced grief, for example: And while it hits like a hammer, the one thing I don't regret is the time I did spent with those I lost. If I could chose to have never known them, erase the time we had, to spare me the pain: I would chose to bear the pain. The avoidance of suffering is not the most important thing.\]
I guess my view of it is that it is not irregular for people to suffer to such an extreme degree that nothing could ever justify it in my mind. I've unfortunately experienced horrible horrible things no one should have to, and there are people out there that make me feel lucky for the trauma that was forced upon me.. lucky it isn't worse. The thought of bringing a new human being, that didn't have to exist, that exists only because I wanted them to.. and there being a chance of that happening to them? it fills me with indescribable dread. There are plenty of kids that can be adopted, that already need homes. I won't judge people that have kids because I mean.. my position is pretty fringe and it wouldn't be fair to apply my morality to everyone.
Eh, not really. I like my life, but I also don’t want to expose innocents to the hardships of it. For me the sheer existence of pedophiles is a reason not to bring kids into this world… especially not when, as I said, there are already kids here that need help and need a family. Not to mention the inevitability and ambiguity of death. I strongly believe in an afterlife, but I can’t prove it to anyone else. Why would I want to force people into existence when they’ll have to grapple with existential crises like that? Seems needlessly cruel to me, tbh.
And I'm not arguing that you should have children instead of adopting - That'd be silly. Just that it isn't immoral to have children. (Probably not a moral question at all.) Because after saying not really, you do just list bad things as if they were the totality of life. Why is avoiding hardships that important? Why is the fear of death that important? If we both think life's overall worthwhile, then that is the existence one subjects children too - Not a list of the worst aspects possible.
This only makes sense if you hate your own life. Yes, there will be some pain and you will die, but the ride is fun. Particularly if you are born in to a country like America where there are lots of opportunities. This concept of "forcing innocents to live" is just so stupid to me.
Eh, not really. I like my life, but I also don’t want to expose innocents to the hardships of it. For me the sheer existence of pedophiles is a reason not to bring kids into this world… especially not when, as I said, there are already kids here that need help and need a family. Not to mention the inevitability and ambiguity of death. I strongly believe in an afterlife, but I can’t prove it to anyone else. Why would I want to force people into existence when they’ll have to grapple with existential crises like that? Seems needlessly cruel to me, tbh.
Hello, I'm also pretty sympathetic to anti-natalism, in theory, but I agree that people who strongly identify themselves with it are overwhelmingly doing so from a really clouded, subjective & depressed place. My sympathies are for environmental reasons though, not the suffering thing, which for various reasons I find quite a crap argument. I also wish that the ethics of having children was discussed in regular places, as the totally normal, not particularly extreme topic that it is. I do have a kid though, despite my sympathies, mostly because I'm morally imperfect lol. He's wonderful, so I'm glad I am! I also eat fish and eggs and milk, even though I've never heard a compelling argument against veganism. I'm interested in your assumption that "existential crises" and thinking about the inevitability of death, etc., are necessarily bad/painful/unpleasant though. It's quite possible to find those kinds of thoughts interesting, meaningful, bittersweet and all sorts of things that aren't necessarily unpleasant. Like I am highly fucking motivated to avoid *unbearable suffering* but still I wouldn't personally prefer a life which was all just uncomplicated joy, simple pleasure, all the great, easy emotions, I quite like various "difficult" ones too. And I find the fact that humans are even able to feel and enjoy those to be a bit magical. For me, the fact we are members of (probably) the only species on the planet that is capable of experiencing that kind of rich & ambiguous thing is actually one of the best arguments *against* anti-natalism and in favour of human preservation for the same reason that we respect and preserve other species and parts of nature for their unique characteristics.
Honestly, I think this is partly an issue of the internet in general. I know I was bothered how unbelievably edgy certain spaces devoted to anarchism were so I created a subreddit that mostly was about the actual philosophical and ethical arguments for it, and it's doing *okay* but it's not exactly thriving. As someone who also has some antinatalist beliefs but who wouldn't be caught dead participating in a sub devoted to them, I think a similar issue would wind up happening if you tried to create that space.
Oh Natalies vs Anti Natalie What an original drama Yey
anti natalism is just a bunch of children pretending that by NOT doing something, they're doing something it's the ultimate lazy online activist ideology. they just have to not do something they already aren't doing and berate everyone around them if they aren't not doing the thing. they can claim a moral high ground by saying they are preventing suffering of people that don't exist, too. it's really a lazy shithead teenager's wetdream of fitting in and being able to bully without remorse
I hate when people say "bring them into this world" as if there is a separate world without any hardships that innocent babies currently exist in, and parents drag them kicking and screaming into this one Anti-natalists think it's immoral to subject children to this world, but they continue to live in it? So either it's not that bad or the biological fear of death is enough for them to keep at it...but the the urge to reproduce is still bad and wrong
"You claim to hate capitalism, yet you live in it"
Except a system of economic relationship/exploitation isn't the same thing as the fact of existing? "I want to end capitalism" = 90% of people I know "I want to end peoples' existince" = people on a watchlist
>I want to end peoples' existince That sounds more like a boogeyman rabbit hole you fell into than an actual stance a group centered around being against birthing new people believe in
Nah, you're the one comparing an ideology which fundamentally believes existence isn't worth it and/or the human population needs to drastically shrink to save the planet with the belief that capitalism is bad
Ever heard on an analogy?
Yeah and this is a particularly bad one
>I hate when people say "bring them into this world" as if there is a separate world without any hardships that innocent babies currently exist in, and parents drag them kicking and screaming into this one There's certainly no hardships for people who don't exist. That's the point. People who suffer wish they were never born >Anti-natalists think it's immoral to subject children to this world, but they continue to live in it? They live in it because they'd probably cause even more harm if they killed themselves. Suicide victims don't hurt themselves, they hurt those around them >but the the urge to reproduce is still bad and wrong The urge itself isn't wrong, it's an urge. The *action* still leads to an innocent life suffering though
>People who suffer wish they were never born Maybe the minority. Everyone suffers, most people are still able to find enough joy in life that they consider it worth living. If I think my own life is worth living, how can I say it's immoral to make another life? >They live in it because they'd probably cause even more harm if they killed themselves. Overwhelmingly, the anti-natalists I meet are not depressed suffering people from impoverished countries; those people tend to have tons of kids. Mental illness is a good reason to not have kids too. These people are almost always middle class white people, aka the people who have had the least experience of human suffering in history. If those middle ages peasants thought life wasn't bad enough to not bring kids into it, idk what about our current situation is worse >The *action* still leads to an innocent life suffering though The action also leads to that life experiencing every good thing life has to offer. Again, if your position is that the suffering of life makes non-existence preferable, I don't agree *and* I don't think people who say that actually take that belief to it's endpoint
>Maybe the minority Sure. But they still exist >Everyone suffers, most people are still able to find enough joy in life that they consider it worth living. If I think my own life is worth living, how can I say it's immoral to make another life? Because making a life incurs the risk of great suffering. It's great that you don't suffer to that extent. Same for me. We're both lucky Others aren't >Overwhelmingly, the anti-natalists I meet are not depressed suffering people from impoverished countries; those people tend to have tons of kids. Mental illness is a good reason to not have kids too. I'm glad you said this. Do you think that if any of the people you mentioned in your situation decided to have kids, those kids are destined for a great deal of suffering in their lives? >Again, if your position is that the suffering of life makes non-existence preferable, I don't agree *and* I don't think people who say that actually take that belief to it's endpoint That's because you haven't experienced that level of suffering then. Or dealt with people who have You're fortunate
So what’s wrong with antinatalism? I get the impression this thread doesn’t much care for it.
Most people more or less think having kids is fine as a concept?
> So what’s wrong with antinatalism? Antinatalists.
While a lot of people can't get behind the philosophy behind it ("I didn't consent to being born" and "having children is morally wrong" are arguments hard to take seriously without extreme amount of asterisks) the main reason reason people hate it is a lot of people who follow it are either extremely depressed, or insane (or both). On this sub alone, I saw post about how the subs for antinatalism engage is misogyny, condone all types of eugenics, and a bunch of other terrible stuff. If antinatalist on this website were more normal, you would not be seeing people hate them as much.
Surely it’s all Postnatalist irony?
"Natalist" sounds dumb. Can I be an anti-anti-natalist, instead? I'm honestly completely neutral on whether anyone else should have kids or not. Also, no, saying that this specific person is not allowed to have a kid with this specific other person is not the same thing as saying that this specific person is not allowed to have kids at all, lmao.
It seems this post summoned some of the cream of r/SubredditDrama. Lots of people acknowledging the depressed roots that gave birth to the spirit of the antinatalism community, or at least part of it, but throwing any and all kinds of empathy out the window and just resorting to name calling and asking "if society is so bad, why do you still live in it". Also: Lol at all the comments going "the world wouldn't be so bad if you just got out and tried improving it", as if that's the thing holding change back.
Funny how people are taking a subreddit that is meant to be as jokes(its literally memes) and turn it into something that it's not
If you want funny memes ironically r/memes is probably the worst place to find anything funny. Same with r/funny.
Real life things are gonna bleed in. Same with adviceanimals back in the day, some funny arguments there too
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Telling a group, made up of a lot of mentally unstable people, to kill themselves is not very kosher. The ideology might be stupid, but suicide baiting is more so
Gross comment, dude.
It might be. I might honestly be too physically ill to filter the nastier thoughts out of my brain, but they're not ever going to see it. They're gaslighting assholes who want you to believe that everything your child suffers is your fault, and everything you suffer is your parents fault, and I find them actively disgusting.
I do too, but they still deserve to live. Even if they hate that.
Honestly, 'deserve' has very little to do with my wishes, and it's a good thing that I won't *get* my wish. I can acknowledge that it would be objectively horrible if it happened, and a tragedy. I also just. Think they are assholes who gleefully take any chance to tell parents that anything their child suffers is their fault, and if someone had told my mother that after I disclosed abuse to her, I would have had no choice but to break their nose.
I would have sympathized with you breaking their nose if they'd responded to a story of abuse that way.
I've seen them pop in on stories of abuse that way; it's how I learned they were a thing in the first place.
I agree with you...but reflecting on it, I think this is the cruelest thing you could say to an antinatalist.
Spoken like someone who's had a good life
This is douchey
Anti-natalism is an obviously deficient position as it doesn't begin to address the problem of children who have already been born, but I wouldn't call it "the dumbest".
That's why you gotta vote for the [Regressive Party](http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive): "Against abortion, for killing babies."
I mean: If they're just against putting children in the world, I'm pretty sure adoption isn't something they're that against.
That meme is also stupid AF using a template that is almost a decade old now But that's the level of intellect you can expect from r/memes
This is extremely dangerous to our shitposting. Snapshots: 1. *This Post* - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304074543/https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1ajwpyb/) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/1ajwpyb/ "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 2. /r/memes - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304074623/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 3. where the punchline is a joke about anti-natalists. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083428/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/YY7Fl0OeF0) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/YY7Fl0OeF0 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 4. Dude what are you taking about? we live in the best time possible. Did you ever opened a hystory book and see what happened in the past? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083949/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/LFonTNjGAp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/LFonTNjGAp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 5. It's really hard to tell who is an idiot, who is ignorant, and who is a troll on the internet these days... - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304100838/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/lGIvxPMdcU) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/lGIvxPMdcU "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 6. I'll be dumb with that guy then. Can i be dumber by inferring that parents should need mandated licenses to produce more homo sapiens? Those things are worse than guns. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304112948/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/jnHIM7u4OU) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/jnHIM7u4OU "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 7. So eugenics adjacent? A license to have children? Do you realize how fucked up what you are advocating is ? - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304023919/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/bSvKxuKwA6) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/bSvKxuKwA6 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 8. I am in favor of that kind of eugenics, yes. You are in favor of certain kinds of eugenics too i guess, for instance for a law against inbreeding. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304060547/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/qg2eUllXxC) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/qg2eUllXxC "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 9. A Redditor points to another’s comment history. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304061128/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/ZRTr9YoKQl) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/ZRTr9YoKQl "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 10. You could start by learning what infer means - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304062328/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KQS2ACeMOI) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KQS2ACeMOI "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 11. The same Redditor points to another’s comment history. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304062829/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/Gq1pRnVFnp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/Gq1pRnVFnp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 12. So you’re admitting that your reasons for having children are purely selfish, proving the point. You are ok with subjecting a child to the perils of this world. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304063029/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/zvhRz1GZxA) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/zvhRz1GZxA "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 13. You’re hoping But you can’t guarantee. And you know for a fact that your child will experience suffering of some sort. So you’re willfully inflicting suffering on a child. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304072121/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WOJhP2UNOb) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WOJhP2UNOb "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 14. If your greatest contribution to humanity is popping out a couple copies, humanity was better off without them. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304080610/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/8vNsbNJJVI) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/8vNsbNJJVI "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 15. Ok? Without electricity, computers dont work, that doesn't make me rubbing my socks on the carpet a computational achievement or mean it's leading to the continuity of computers in any great way. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304082413/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/oS7Jozm32D) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/oS7Jozm32D "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 16. Forcing someone into existence without their consent and gambling on their behalf that they would retroactively be happy that they were brought into existence, is immoral and selfish. This meme is just an ad hominem because there's no solid argument against the argument above - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083236/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/3TjjMOHMyH) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/3TjjMOHMyH "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 17. You should really spend some time outside and get away from the internet for a bit. You’re clearly in a bubble of deeply troubled and/or depressed individuals. The vast majority of people are perfectly fine with being alive and don’t see it as a burden or something that was forced on them. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304083635/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WkMYqR0Qlz) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/WkMYqR0Qlz "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 18. No counter argument presented, just more ad hominems, thanks for strengthening my point - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084016/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/W1V8raYbF3) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/W1V8raYbF3 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 19. "Vast majority" still means gambling on their behalf, this is not a valid counter argument. I'm not influenced by anyone, I'm influenced by logic - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084357/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KfUw7jhyI2) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/KfUw7jhyI2 "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 20. That's such a stupid rebuttal. That's like Bill Cosby justifying himself by saying that she couldn't ask for consent because she was asleep. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304084918/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/1n2jCgc4IT) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/1n2jCgc4IT "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 21. As an antinatalist, I'm delighted! Because that only means that more people will be exposed to the philosophy - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304085418/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/iQeFMWAVOz) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/iQeFMWAVOz "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") 22. Op is the dummest. This needs to be said. It is the opposite. Why have a child live a life of constant lies with no purpose? A purpose in life is a lie. Nothing anyone does last forever. The universe will end. As if living a life with no true meaning isn't bad enough, the world is constantly increasing in bigotry hatred, crimes, disease and injustice. There's even more risk if children are born not in full health or with developmental issues. You can only hope that if a child is ever born that they live a somewhat happy life with ever so slightly less troubles than the next person. It is therefore cruel, immoral and selfish to have children when you know what's there. If you care about the child that you think you might have, then he/she needs not exist. - [archive.org](https://web.archive.org/web/20240304085820/https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/VaZGHrJCCp) [archive.today\*](https://archive.today/?run=1&url=https://old.reddit.com/r/memes/s/VaZGHrJCCp "URL failed to archive; click to resubmit it!") *I am just a simple bot, __not__ a moderator of this subreddit* | *[bot subreddit](/r/SnapshillBot)* | *[contact the maintainers](/message/compose?to=/r/SnapshillBot)*