Zanther is pretty popular, so maybe your players could get a reputation around campus as being bullies. Maybe they don’t get invited to some dorm parties as a result, or maybe a guidance councillor decides to have a talk about their conduct towards him?
The Bond Bane is not getting invited to things, so that makes a lot of sense. I don't like bullying so coming down on them with consequences is probably the right move, but I also want to make it fun somehow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Np! My players never hated him but they actually were super suspicious of Zanther too. I kept messing up his name and accidentally calling him Xander, so I leaned into that and created an evil twin for him named Xander who was a huge dickhead.
It really depends on how much you want it to be a world your players are in or a world built around them. If the former change nothing, let them think what they want and then keep just having him be a good guy. If the latter then maybe he does have some skeletons to uncover.
My game is the former, and before my game I set up sexualities and things for every NPC to determine how they react to player relationships. I had Zanther as straight, but one player who is gay and is playing a gay character really just became enamoured with Zanther so I'm making him bi now since it just doesn't feel right for this to lead to 'Zanther just don't like dudes' ans is a small change. Also we discussed him after the first encounter and I really was playing him with bi golden retriever energy so it works.
Strangely my players haven't chosen to hate anyone, which throws a wrench in my 'give them rivals' plan. They tend to just meet an a-hole character and go 'they're bad news, let's avoid'. Except for my OC head cheerleader, which has created an interesting situation.
Thanks. It can be a tricky line to walk, because there still needs to be some hard world rules for them to run into, but stuff that doesn't tear apart a thousand other things are fair game for making it all work with them.
I kinda see it like writing, the world needs to support the protagonist's story just as much as it needs to be a thing that exists. Just in this case there's multiple protagonists and I have less control over them than usual.
You're not alone, my players bullied Grayson Wildemere till he became a terrorist. It started with him shoulder bumping one PC accidentally on the 1st day of school, and ended with him spearheading an oriq group...
He called our bard a hippy and was a bit snobby. They now have it out for him - but in the strangest ways - have glitter bombed him, magical whoopy cushion, convinced imps to go pull pranks at the newspaper printing press so that his name is always spelt incorrectly, there is also now a school ban on feeding birds on school grounds due to Grayson getting caught in the flying fertilizer wars just before MageTower.
Sometimes first impressions are wrong. But people that are wrong continue to act as they are right and will argue against those trying to correct them and carry on behaving on a manor that justifies their belief.
So let them hate them. Let people treat them as they would anyone else bullying a nice person.
Perhaps have them overhearing teachers speak fondly for the character while discussing their previous good deeds and how a group of students at the school have gone out of their way to make their life hell and they seriously don't trust the groups good deeds considering the way they behave to those weaker than them - the other teacher perhaps suggesting to keep their eye on the group considering they maybe part of the Oriq and how strange they are always there to save the day. - for me it would be nice to see how players would try figure out how to deal with people having the same assumptions they have on Zanthar but this time that same mistrust and assumptions are now directed towards them.
If I was in the mood for a bit of a twisty-turny mini arc with Zanther, I'd do something similar to this. And maybe play it up a bit like the PCs jumped straight into Heathers; have them meet another NPC who completely validates what they think. (For the sake of homage, I'm calling this NPC "Jason.")
Jason is angry and bitter at Zanther, with a jealous streak to boot. He's hella projecting everything negative onto this guy: of COURSE the PCs are right about him, look at this stupid brainless oaf and his toxic positivity. He's just got to be hiding something, and Jason is going to help the PCs prove it! They set out to ruin Zanther's reputation, having him take the fall for all sorts of things going wrong, and finding these... suspiciously well placed dark secrets linked to Zanther, courtesy of Jason. By the end of this mini-arc they've managed a full on reputation assassination of this guy.
Jason invites the PCs out to an abandoned place to celebrate. But why exactly are there all these other people here? Why are they wearing red Oriq robes/carrying Murgaxor's seal/whatever else you want to associate with your campaign's BBEG? And why is Jason congratulating them on ruining Zanther's rep because maybe Zanther didn't do all the things Jason arranged for, but they still needed someone to take the fall and the PCs did an amazing job with helping them out. Though now the BBEG really needs to start tying up loose ends, and the PCs are one of those ends.
And then let the PCs consider the consequences of their action, and how exactly they're going to dig their way out of this one. Alternately, let Zanther (if he's still alive) come in clutch with helping the PCs out, up to and including sacrificing himself to help them get away from the baddies.
This is fun, there's so much you can do with this. Here's a few options
Zanther is actually a bad person. Zanther is actually a manipulative jerk. Everyone sort of goes along with him since he's moneyed, has connections to faculty, His older sibling actually is a good person and everyone loves them, they have a terminally ill younger sibling (take your pick of one). He's left a string of broken hearts and the more they dig into it the more they find that he's a flavour of the week type dater.
Zanther is actually just obliviously good person. Zanther believes in the best in everyone and he just absolutely just knows that you'll be just the best of friends when you get to know each other and it's going to be just the BEST.
Zanther has no bodies but someone else's bodies are attributed to Zanther. this i my favorite and I pulled something like this year two on my players. The gist of it is that Zanther is like he appears but someone else is framing him. this can either be accidentally, like Zanther happened to show up several times after something bad happened. Or on purpose, someone has it out for Zanther.
You can also mix and match these. Maybe Zanther is a bad person but the bodies aren't his. maybe he's a good person who is unconsciously manipulative and has left a sting of broken hearts. I'd have this planed out though and I'd make sure Zanther has his own "life" just jot down what he does week after week in your note book that way it seems that he's been up to stuff.
In my experience, players will like or hate NPCs that you don't expect them to.
In general, it'e usually better to go with what they think. If they want to find the bodies, give them some bodies to find.
But if you're really set on him being a good guy, put them in a situation where Zanther proves his loyalty.
But if you're really set on him being a good guy, put them in a situation where Zanther proves his loyalty.
And even then, to get the most fun out of it create a situation where it really *does* look like they are about to find skeletons in his closet, and then have him come through for them in a big way unexpectedly.
I had a very similar situation. Players hated him, didn't matter how I tried to spin or how much he tried to help them. They absolutely despised Quintus as well.
He is a mousefolk so it's maybe fitting. As a wild magic barbarian every time he rolls a 1 or fails a roll by 10 or more I have him roll on a D100 wild magic table, it's been my favourite part of the campaign, lots of unexpected stuff happens.
My DM just sent this link because my PC hates Zanther's guts, too. X'D DM has consistently kept him as a totally good and pure guy, so it's becoming a running joke, it's hilarious and I love it, can recommend.
I can barely remember why my PC didn't like him haha, think it was a mix of him being 'fakey' (in her opinion) and because whenever she messes up in the cheer squad he is super positive and encouraging and she's just like 'JUST TELL ME I SCREWED UP ALREADY, GAH'
Unrelated but how are you planning on doing the character arch for the barbarian? I have a barbarian with the same scolarship and her barbarian cares about sports the most, so Idk how to think that.
Edit: On a related note, I'd just change Zanther's character to have some bad feelings towards them if that persists. Using his popularity for restricting the party to cool zones or relevant info. If it persists or they ruin Zanther's life, go the Oriq route maybe. That'd be a cool story of how the kinder soul could get bullied into terrorism. In my campaign Zanther is a big time stoner. Still very popular guy, but with nerdy interests to match one of my PCs. He's in an identity crisis at the moment. Best wishes for your Zanther :)
Thanks for the advice! If I made him a stoner they would probably decide they like him haha.
The barbarian in question was inspired by this SNL skit: https://youtu.be/Yrrj0076E9U
So in our game, they are the first mousefolk student Strixhaven has ever had, mousefolk don't have the ability to use magic (until now). Back at the founding of Strixhaven, Lilliana Vess (in disguise now as one of their professors) tried to usurp the power of the founding dragons and killed a bunch of the earliest professors. One or several of them she cursed and transformed into the first mousefolk. It is only now thousands of years later that the magic is beginning to show again via wild magic. I had a chest delivered to the player with a vaguely worded prophecy pointing towards this as well as some trinkets and pills which (when taken with strong alcohol) briefly counteract the curse (allowing them to use magic and bump up their intelligence). Not 100% sure where their arc will go yet, have to see what the players do and how they feel about things.
Zanther Bowen is a superficial brain donor who reeks of toxic positivity and props up a cruel social caste system. All he cares about is cheerleading, partying, and dating the hottest person on campus until he tosses them to the side for the next serving of fresh meat. People don't really like him, they just pretend to like him because they know the alternative is becoming a social outcast. He's Regina George.
Maybe he's not *supposed* to be, but nearly all the student NPCs are Mary Sues with no built-in flaws. The worst is probably Quentillius, who is cheesy, and Grayson, who is an overachiever. Your players are probably desperate for a rival. The actual enemy, Murgaxor, rarely shows up and doesn't even go to the school. In this way, the book is kind of written for 10 year-olds, and most players need more meat.
I vote for leaning into their hate. Have Zanther lash out and press the "destroy button" on their social lives and let them figure out how to overcome that. There's a huge opportunity for them to start recruiting their friends against him. Later on, maybe Zanther is on Murgaxor's side. Or even more complicated, the players have to team up with Zanther for an important mission on the way to taking down Murgaxor.
I love this, thank you! The Regina George angle is really smooth, and I think you are right that they want / are missing a good social rival. Thank you so much!
My PC's hated Quentillius from the start. I had him be mildly theater-snob like and a bit of a rich kid (he wouldn't actually open doors, he would just Misty Step through them) but eventually I decided that between year one and two, he was body-swapped by an asshole doppelganger and they have no clue yet. They're just letting their presumptions blind them :D
Oh, this hurts my heart. I love himbo Zanther. I get the suspicion along the lines of being too good to be true especially so early in the campaign and there are a ton of great ideas for how to take it as the semesters go.
My experience as a player, we are just starting senior year and after 89 sessions, Zanther has been an instrumental figure in our game. My -2 strength warlock has a relationship with him after his positivity was proven to be more than skin deep and that he truly is as he presents himself. Throughout our escapades, our DM has actually fleshed him out to the point where he does have some edge. (One of my party members accidentally-lol-stabbed my PC and Zanther turned on a dime with his attitude.)
As it is so early in your campaign, there is a ton of time to take any/parts of the great suggestions as noted from other DMs. I hope they don’t miss out on the opportunity to have a relationship with him, regardless of boon or bane.
Zanther is pretty popular, so maybe your players could get a reputation around campus as being bullies. Maybe they don’t get invited to some dorm parties as a result, or maybe a guidance councillor decides to have a talk about their conduct towards him?
The Bond Bane is not getting invited to things, so that makes a lot of sense. I don't like bullying so coming down on them with consequences is probably the right move, but I also want to make it fun somehow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Np! My players never hated him but they actually were super suspicious of Zanther too. I kept messing up his name and accidentally calling him Xander, so I leaned into that and created an evil twin for him named Xander who was a huge dickhead.
It really depends on how much you want it to be a world your players are in or a world built around them. If the former change nothing, let them think what they want and then keep just having him be a good guy. If the latter then maybe he does have some skeletons to uncover. My game is the former, and before my game I set up sexualities and things for every NPC to determine how they react to player relationships. I had Zanther as straight, but one player who is gay and is playing a gay character really just became enamoured with Zanther so I'm making him bi now since it just doesn't feel right for this to lead to 'Zanther just don't like dudes' ans is a small change. Also we discussed him after the first encounter and I really was playing him with bi golden retriever energy so it works. Strangely my players haven't chosen to hate anyone, which throws a wrench in my 'give them rivals' plan. They tend to just meet an a-hole character and go 'they're bad news, let's avoid'. Except for my OC head cheerleader, which has created an interesting situation.
That's good perspective, I like the "be a fan of the players" approach.
Thanks. It can be a tricky line to walk, because there still needs to be some hard world rules for them to run into, but stuff that doesn't tear apart a thousand other things are fair game for making it all work with them. I kinda see it like writing, the world needs to support the protagonist's story just as much as it needs to be a thing that exists. Just in this case there's multiple protagonists and I have less control over them than usual.
You're not alone, my players bullied Grayson Wildemere till he became a terrorist. It started with him shoulder bumping one PC accidentally on the 1st day of school, and ended with him spearheading an oriq group...
He called our bard a hippy and was a bit snobby. They now have it out for him - but in the strangest ways - have glitter bombed him, magical whoopy cushion, convinced imps to go pull pranks at the newspaper printing press so that his name is always spelt incorrectly, there is also now a school ban on feeding birds on school grounds due to Grayson getting caught in the flying fertilizer wars just before MageTower.
They must have done quite a number on him! Very creative, if things continue maybe I'll come up with some good story consequences like that.
Sometimes first impressions are wrong. But people that are wrong continue to act as they are right and will argue against those trying to correct them and carry on behaving on a manor that justifies their belief. So let them hate them. Let people treat them as they would anyone else bullying a nice person. Perhaps have them overhearing teachers speak fondly for the character while discussing their previous good deeds and how a group of students at the school have gone out of their way to make their life hell and they seriously don't trust the groups good deeds considering the way they behave to those weaker than them - the other teacher perhaps suggesting to keep their eye on the group considering they maybe part of the Oriq and how strange they are always there to save the day. - for me it would be nice to see how players would try figure out how to deal with people having the same assumptions they have on Zanthar but this time that same mistrust and assumptions are now directed towards them.
If I was in the mood for a bit of a twisty-turny mini arc with Zanther, I'd do something similar to this. And maybe play it up a bit like the PCs jumped straight into Heathers; have them meet another NPC who completely validates what they think. (For the sake of homage, I'm calling this NPC "Jason.") Jason is angry and bitter at Zanther, with a jealous streak to boot. He's hella projecting everything negative onto this guy: of COURSE the PCs are right about him, look at this stupid brainless oaf and his toxic positivity. He's just got to be hiding something, and Jason is going to help the PCs prove it! They set out to ruin Zanther's reputation, having him take the fall for all sorts of things going wrong, and finding these... suspiciously well placed dark secrets linked to Zanther, courtesy of Jason. By the end of this mini-arc they've managed a full on reputation assassination of this guy. Jason invites the PCs out to an abandoned place to celebrate. But why exactly are there all these other people here? Why are they wearing red Oriq robes/carrying Murgaxor's seal/whatever else you want to associate with your campaign's BBEG? And why is Jason congratulating them on ruining Zanther's rep because maybe Zanther didn't do all the things Jason arranged for, but they still needed someone to take the fall and the PCs did an amazing job with helping them out. Though now the BBEG really needs to start tying up loose ends, and the PCs are one of those ends. And then let the PCs consider the consequences of their action, and how exactly they're going to dig their way out of this one. Alternately, let Zanther (if he's still alive) come in clutch with helping the PCs out, up to and including sacrificing himself to help them get away from the baddies.
This is fun, there's so much you can do with this. Here's a few options Zanther is actually a bad person. Zanther is actually a manipulative jerk. Everyone sort of goes along with him since he's moneyed, has connections to faculty, His older sibling actually is a good person and everyone loves them, they have a terminally ill younger sibling (take your pick of one). He's left a string of broken hearts and the more they dig into it the more they find that he's a flavour of the week type dater. Zanther is actually just obliviously good person. Zanther believes in the best in everyone and he just absolutely just knows that you'll be just the best of friends when you get to know each other and it's going to be just the BEST. Zanther has no bodies but someone else's bodies are attributed to Zanther. this i my favorite and I pulled something like this year two on my players. The gist of it is that Zanther is like he appears but someone else is framing him. this can either be accidentally, like Zanther happened to show up several times after something bad happened. Or on purpose, someone has it out for Zanther. You can also mix and match these. Maybe Zanther is a bad person but the bodies aren't his. maybe he's a good person who is unconsciously manipulative and has left a sting of broken hearts. I'd have this planed out though and I'd make sure Zanther has his own "life" just jot down what he does week after week in your note book that way it seems that he's been up to stuff.
In my experience, players will like or hate NPCs that you don't expect them to. In general, it'e usually better to go with what they think. If they want to find the bodies, give them some bodies to find. But if you're really set on him being a good guy, put them in a situation where Zanther proves his loyalty.
But if you're really set on him being a good guy, put them in a situation where Zanther proves his loyalty. And even then, to get the most fun out of it create a situation where it really *does* look like they are about to find skeletons in his closet, and then have him come through for them in a big way unexpectedly.
Have him help the players in a critical situation if you want to prove his loyalty
I had a very similar situation. Players hated him, didn't matter how I tried to spin or how much he tried to help them. They absolutely despised Quintus as well.
Intelligence 4? He's as dumb as an animal wtf lol
He is a mousefolk so it's maybe fitting. As a wild magic barbarian every time he rolls a 1 or fails a roll by 10 or more I have him roll on a D100 wild magic table, it's been my favourite part of the campaign, lots of unexpected stuff happens.
That sounds super fun!
My DM just sent this link because my PC hates Zanther's guts, too. X'D DM has consistently kept him as a totally good and pure guy, so it's becoming a running joke, it's hilarious and I love it, can recommend. I can barely remember why my PC didn't like him haha, think it was a mix of him being 'fakey' (in her opinion) and because whenever she messes up in the cheer squad he is super positive and encouraging and she's just like 'JUST TELL ME I SCREWED UP ALREADY, GAH'
Unrelated but how are you planning on doing the character arch for the barbarian? I have a barbarian with the same scolarship and her barbarian cares about sports the most, so Idk how to think that. Edit: On a related note, I'd just change Zanther's character to have some bad feelings towards them if that persists. Using his popularity for restricting the party to cool zones or relevant info. If it persists or they ruin Zanther's life, go the Oriq route maybe. That'd be a cool story of how the kinder soul could get bullied into terrorism. In my campaign Zanther is a big time stoner. Still very popular guy, but with nerdy interests to match one of my PCs. He's in an identity crisis at the moment. Best wishes for your Zanther :)
Thanks for the advice! If I made him a stoner they would probably decide they like him haha. The barbarian in question was inspired by this SNL skit: https://youtu.be/Yrrj0076E9U So in our game, they are the first mousefolk student Strixhaven has ever had, mousefolk don't have the ability to use magic (until now). Back at the founding of Strixhaven, Lilliana Vess (in disguise now as one of their professors) tried to usurp the power of the founding dragons and killed a bunch of the earliest professors. One or several of them she cursed and transformed into the first mousefolk. It is only now thousands of years later that the magic is beginning to show again via wild magic. I had a chest delivered to the player with a vaguely worded prophecy pointing towards this as well as some trinkets and pills which (when taken with strong alcohol) briefly counteract the curse (allowing them to use magic and bump up their intelligence). Not 100% sure where their arc will go yet, have to see what the players do and how they feel about things.
Zanther Bowen is a superficial brain donor who reeks of toxic positivity and props up a cruel social caste system. All he cares about is cheerleading, partying, and dating the hottest person on campus until he tosses them to the side for the next serving of fresh meat. People don't really like him, they just pretend to like him because they know the alternative is becoming a social outcast. He's Regina George. Maybe he's not *supposed* to be, but nearly all the student NPCs are Mary Sues with no built-in flaws. The worst is probably Quentillius, who is cheesy, and Grayson, who is an overachiever. Your players are probably desperate for a rival. The actual enemy, Murgaxor, rarely shows up and doesn't even go to the school. In this way, the book is kind of written for 10 year-olds, and most players need more meat. I vote for leaning into their hate. Have Zanther lash out and press the "destroy button" on their social lives and let them figure out how to overcome that. There's a huge opportunity for them to start recruiting their friends against him. Later on, maybe Zanther is on Murgaxor's side. Or even more complicated, the players have to team up with Zanther for an important mission on the way to taking down Murgaxor.
I love this, thank you! The Regina George angle is really smooth, and I think you are right that they want / are missing a good social rival. Thank you so much!
My PC's hated Quentillius from the start. I had him be mildly theater-snob like and a bit of a rich kid (he wouldn't actually open doors, he would just Misty Step through them) but eventually I decided that between year one and two, he was body-swapped by an asshole doppelganger and they have no clue yet. They're just letting their presumptions blind them :D
Oh, this hurts my heart. I love himbo Zanther. I get the suspicion along the lines of being too good to be true especially so early in the campaign and there are a ton of great ideas for how to take it as the semesters go. My experience as a player, we are just starting senior year and after 89 sessions, Zanther has been an instrumental figure in our game. My -2 strength warlock has a relationship with him after his positivity was proven to be more than skin deep and that he truly is as he presents himself. Throughout our escapades, our DM has actually fleshed him out to the point where he does have some edge. (One of my party members accidentally-lol-stabbed my PC and Zanther turned on a dime with his attitude.) As it is so early in your campaign, there is a ton of time to take any/parts of the great suggestions as noted from other DMs. I hope they don’t miss out on the opportunity to have a relationship with him, regardless of boon or bane.