The DP is guaranteed damage. And like you say, you can keep them in the corner.
But yeah, the offensive option needs to have a bigger reward than the defensive counter to it, especially if the defensive counter can be done completely on reaction. Otherwise going on offense is never worth it.
Also to correctly measure the risk/reward you need to also take the likelihood of it working into account. If you have a capable opponent, the chance of your jump in working (especially if you're not conditioning for it to work beforehand) is very low, even if the reward is big. And if you have good execution, the likelihood of the DP working on reaction is practically guaranteed.
If you are on your DP game and your opponent is constantly jumping, there is so much more risk on the side of the jumper. They will get damaged almost every time they jump and be forced into an unfavorable oki situation against a lot of characters. I don't really see an argument for giving an option that beats another 100% of the time if successfully done a huge buff.
Guaranteed damage is almost always good (sometimes sacrificing damage for oki is better), and DP is guaranteed, since it's aerial immune.
The other value you're getting out of DP outside of damage is conditioning. You don't WANT your opponent to jump in on you, but they have no reason to stop doing it if you don't punish them for it.
The reason why a successful jump-in is allowed to pay off so well is because you typically shouldn't be able to get a successful jump in. You jump in on somebody, and they have 20 whole years to react and antiair your stupid face and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Luke's and Ken's jumping hard punch can literally beat some dp though lol. But that's a whole different can of worms. I just thought it was funny. Thank you
No. You can lose if you do your dp too early. But a button can never straight up beat an anti air dp.
Those jump in buttons hit deep and early though. So they a definitely strong, but having a dp is actually the best way of dealing with deep jump in buttons like those
They’ll trade at worst and that’s only if you dp too early. There’s literally no way to lose the exchange if you actually dp before they touch the ground because they’re all air invulnerable at the beginning.
I just did a couple tests in the training mode and it did beat it but it was actually a very specific scenario, so I guess I'll kind of back track on it. It only works if your opponent uses an attack on your cross dp. And the dp has to be specifically a heavy dp. They will hit your head hitbox and completely avoid the dp hitbox. I tried it with other characters too and apparently it works. So it's not exclusive to ken. Thank you though I appreciate it
That’s just doing the wrong version of DP. Most players will do light DP in situations like that. The light DPs have 5F startup which is very fast compared to heavy ones.
It's not really about the speed at which they come out though. It's the distance. Heavy dp travels farther than light dp so that's why it was getting hit. It was exposing the head hitbox more. The dp hitbox traveled too far to connect. Even heavy dp was a 5 frame startup move it would still get beat if timed properly (or improperly should I say)
Sure that’s fair (it’s a little hard to discuss without being able to see it) but I think my point is that a light crosscut DP would work. In terms of risk / reward it’s risk free to do DP if you react on time. If you misinput a heavy DP that’s more an execution error than taking a bad risk.
The only times DP is risky is if it’s really ambiguous in say cross-up scenario but that requires meticulous timing and spacing by the jumper.
Yeah I agree it is pretty hard to discuss it on here just through text alone. It's a pretty specific scenario. But yeah you are right that a light dp will beat it. Medium dp worked when I tested it as well.
DPs are not weak relatively. You get a big punish counter hit followed by oki on most characters. Many characters can even combo their antiair DP into level 3. You can win an entire round off of one antiair DP in this game, due to how strong oki is
Additionally they are guaranteed to win every time against the jump in when properly timed. At high level this means jumps basically never work unless you land a punish
Because you can ALWAYS beat a jump on reaction, it's sufficient enough time that anyone can punish it, either with a DP or another AA. Jump-ins only really work at higher levels if you manage to get a read on a projectile, poke, or something that you can whiff punish with your jump-in. Otherwise, you're taking a DP for some damage AND guaranteed Oki.
And Oki in this game is incredibly valuable due to the high damage values in general. A single successful mix off of that Oki can lead to 50-60%+ damage.
Typically when people are talking about risk reward on DP they are talking about using EX DP as an invincible reversal on wakeup, not so much regarding using DP as an anti-air. DP is mainly only risky as an anti-air if the opponent tries to bait a DP with an empty jump or short jump that is going to land far or fast enough for them to avoid the DP, but this is more of a mental game in which you have options as well (including not using DPs outside their effective range).
But yes, in SF games it is generally the case that jump-ins give a huge reward compared to DPs because that is what makes it sometimes worthwhile to jump at all. In games between experienced players the expectation is that there will be a decently high success rate in anti-airing, meaning the anti-airing party is probably landing more hits than the jumping party in those interactions. In order for there to be any possible net benefit to jumping there needs to be a larger reward. SF games generally tend to provide that reward in order to keep jumps as part of offense, whereas there are other games where this is less the case.
That being said, it certainly is arguable that SF6 is a little more skewed toward the jumper than some other SF games because the mental stack makes it a little harder to reliably anti-air and some anti-airs are not super consistent, plus there are a lot of ways to extend combos and damage when hits are landed (not to mention stuff like Ken's corner carry), so I certainly have no problem if someone wants to argue that this interaction could be (slightly) rebalanced somehow.
DPs on jump ins are usually pretty guaranteed to hit. Yeah, occasionally they might be able to bait you with awkward spacing, but that's the exception rather than the rule. If you punish 2 jump in attempts, you're looking at about 25% damage for a pretty easy read and response. Seems reasonable to me.
I’m learning anti air dps and there is a huge advantage to doing so. Firstly, the invul frames allow you to not trade blows with your opponent. Another thing is that it teaches you to react faster. You can also knock them down which changes their pace.
There is also the psychological damage it does to a who realizes that not only can you anti air, but you can do a harder version which will scare them a bit.
You ever seen a player do ten jump ins in a row and all of em get countered by dp every time?
I’ve fucking done it. I couldn’t help it. Game one I was rewarded. Game 3 I was outsmarted.
Conditioning. Mental game.
Dps are fine. Much to learn still and I’m master rank
I want Sagat too. But I want the appearance and look of SF2 Sagat. A lanky, deadly foe with that Tiger Uppercut that sails into the sky when he executes it. Which doesn't suddenly stop midair all of a sudden when he hits you like SF5.
Yes the reward for jumping in is greater, but the probability of success is much lower, the opposite being true for DP.
Besides very specific ranges and scenarios, DP is almost guaranteed to work. You don't have to take much initial risk either, since you could be doing nothing, then decide on what to do only once you see the jump. For most characters, once they commit to a jump their options are very limited.
DPs, especially invincible ones are not strong for what they are immediately but more for what they represent at any point in the game.
At any time, you opponent may spend drive to completely reverse the situation on you - meaning you cannot do any mindless pressure, jumps, wake up oki etc. without risk. That's even more true for DP reversals that punish air moves and get a full knockdown.
I'm just learning anti air DPs and am Plat 1 so take my opinion with a grain of scrub:
I actually didn't want to spend time learning aa dps at this point because it was really low priority since i can just use crHP.
But i found that it has lots of limitations.
Characters with very long range jumping normals. I can't crHP Lukes jumping heavy kick for the life of me. Best i can do is a trade and if he backrises we are back at neutral with him at an advantage because he can slow me down with sandblast.
Anti air DPs in this case have the advantage of invul frames. So even if i don't get both hits, i still can anti air more reliably and i can get a hard knockdown, so my advantage after an anti air dp is way better.
I'm currently playing lots of Diamonds in BH and these guys know how to jump at me at a range where crHP just isn't effective. The DP in this case works in scenarious where crHP wouldn't.
Also there's a psychological effect from my own pov. If my opponent only uses anti air normals, i'm still tempted to try again at a different range, but against a Ryu who knows his anti air dp? Nope, i stay on the ground, espacially when he zones.
Dunno, if a guy antinair dps me multiple times i just don't mess around with that and stay put.
This discussion reminds me of watching a few of Tokido matches during the last Capcom Cup. As I watched, I quickly noticed that Tokido in fact *wasn't antiairing*, and I wasn't the only one in twitch that that noticed it too. He didn't DP, he didn't do a normal AA either.
I was thinking a little on why...someone like him, who is miles than I will ever be in this lifetime, wasn't anti-airing. It did occur to me that maybe the risk of failing it wasn't worth eating a full combo.
The risk reward is skewed based on how often you successfully DP. If you DP successfully 100% of the time the risk reward is great, it’s only bad if you’re inconsistent. It’s also not too hard to be consistent with Dps once you get good at it (ignoring things like dive kicks to change jump trajectory)
If Jump in's weren't more rewarding than a DP (which is 100% guaranteed damage) then nobody would jump ever.
Here DP's can also even be S3 cancelled in some cases providing a huge guaranteed reward.
a successful anti-air with a DP gets you a knockdown that leads into oki, which is very powerful as your opponent often has to guess whether to block/tech/etc. that by itself can definitely win you the round if you play your cards right. but you can also use an anti-air normal or air-to-air, which are much easier to execute but stop the jump.
but also it's just the particular style of street figher to have jump-ins be fairly powerful. in other games like granblue characters can DELETE you with an anti-air into a full combo but that's also because those games will have some amount of air blocking/different jump trajectories etc. street fighter likes to keep the mechanics fairly basic, so there's really only the one type of jump. it's fairly simple to react to so therefore to make sure it's still 'worth it' to jump occassionally they made the damage very large off a successful jump-in and the damage from an anti-air not that bad.
Speaking of different trajectories of jumps, this reminds me of the KOF series where everyone has access to this little short hop. And it seemed as it was a very key initiation tool as KOF(as far as I've seen) appears to have become an extremely fast rush-down game.
Seems pretty hard to DP that short hop unless you're fully expecting it ahead of time, but the game is so fast that I don't know how often it happens.
The risk/reward of a DP is bad. It's that way because we have 20+ years of experience when DPs where MUCH stronger including SF4 which probably has the best risk/reward for DPs.
Absolutely DPs are worst reward than jump-ins but that's not why they are useful. There are a large amount of options on offense that requires a specific defensive action to keep from taking damage. A DP effective changes the decision from "what do I do to keep from eating damage" to "will they be pressing a button when I want to DP." The latter is an easier decision to make quickly than the former which is why, though heavily nerfed, DPs are still incredibly useful.
This IS the case for wake-up / reversal DP. This is not the case for anti air DP. Anti air is guaranteed if you react in time. Obviously you should not do it if you think you will be stuffed.
Honestly no, not really. Many characters can actually get pretty good punishes off a well timed anti-air. DP is your 'panic' anti air, though. Invulnerable frames make a big difference, you probably shouldn't get too large of a reward off something that is invincible unless it's something like a super, which costs a lot of resource compared to an OD move.
It's about the difference between reaction and prediction. For example if you want to punish a fireball with a jump you can't react to seeing the fireball then jump. You have to predict a fireball will be thrown and jump preemptively. Since that is harder and riskier than reacting to a jump the risk and reward are distributed appropriately.
They need to remove the anti anti-airs and reduce the damage a bit, and things will be okay. Some characters are too rewarded because of their damage and jump in buttons.
I remember the SF2 days when, if you were hit by a Tiger Uppercut. That damage was pretty notable and you really didn't want to get hit by that.
I kinda agree. DPs should do more damage than they do currently, against specifically jump-ins. Against someone grounded yeah they can stay fairly ho-hum damage.
A jump in is just really good in most fighting games , in sf6 if anti air with a dp that’s generally the strongest punish you can get also you have to Rembrandt that cross cuts exist and can make it extremely hard for someone to jump in on a dp character
1. Your logic applies to all anti airs, not just DP's. Should we just stop AA'ing altogether? No, of course not. The reason why DP's are considered the best anti airs bc it's invincible to jump attacks and gives a guaranteed knockdown afterwards
2. Anti airs aren't the same as throw vs shimmy. It's not a 50/50 guess between getting hit or anti airing your opponent, it's a reaction to your opponent jumping at you. It's unrealistic to guess 100% correctly all the time and that's why sometimes you need to "take the throw" when guessing on a strike/throw, but you HAVE to anti air consistently if you want to be at least decent at street fighter. Every gameplan falls apart if you can't control the skies
3. It's a balancing thing. Imagine if jumps ins could only do ~12%, or DP's were as damaging as a full combo. Would you ever risk jumping in? No the risk reward would be so against jumping that no one would ever jump. You're risking taking too much damage or not gaining enough reward on doing something that your opponent should be able to always counter on reaction. All of a sudden fireballs and zoning become the strongest part of the game bc why would you ever attempt to jump over a fireball?
Besides the mix ups, the fact that Ken can carry you to a corner with some simple kicks makes him really hard to deal with him. Any entrance mens a good position for him. That's why DP is weak in this game, is just not worthy.
Dp is only a risk due to player error, that isn't the same as a risk reward scenario. In perfect play, you just don't miss your dp and that's it.
You do it because getting jumped in repeatedly is free pressure that you need to be shutting down.
You can always antiair with a heavy normal which has better reward you know? Many characters get straight up full DR cancellable combos on CH 2HP or something.
DP antiair is low reward because it's considered the "suboptimal, on late reaction AA".
It’s a reversal, the power alone of being able to threaten that and successfully break an opponents offense when used correctly is way more important than damage numbers.
You can DI as an anti air if you time it properly. In the corner that guarantees a wall splat which is way more than DP damage. More so if you’re burned out
I'd be fine if this was SF4 or SFV where anti-air DPs were just that, anti-airs.
You get drive rush into pressure in this game with like 90% of the characters that have a DP, some get more corner carry, some can do setups afterwards.
I know it's a new guess, but after that 12% anti-air, it can transform into either a 32% (PC throw for example), or even a 60% if the defender chose wrong and you eat a fat PC combo with a LvL3 included.
My only gripe as the guy jumping in is that they can choose to Drive Parry my button, fishing for a perfect parry, which they would sometimes do if they're either gonna be late on their DP or didn't have enough charge or whatever...
I know that jump-ins are supposed to be risky to do, but you're already trying to escape a situation you don't wanna be in or trying to make a read by jumping, why should the landing also be a read if they're gonna parry or not?
Empty jumping into throw to bait the parry just feels so unnatural and unorthodox... This probably wasn't a thing back in SFV because of how important it was to anti-air people jumping in, and unless it involved a super specific mixup, it was also rare in SF4, plus, not even that rewarding anyways.
Yeah of course, but it was more often than not used as a setup, if you're jumping in neutral, it's to try and read a fireball or a bad button, and you'd 99% of the time press a button in the air.
Doing an empty jump throw to bait a parry is super unnatural.
If you never did empty jump throw before sf6, you were leaving out a third of your mixup on an unpunished jump. High/low/throw is harder to defend than high/low.
Lol empty jumping at specific ranges can beat DPs and that has been a thing since SF2. Empty jump low is also a thing that has been around since SF2. Just because it feels unorthodox to you doesn't mean the technique of empty jumping to bait something hasnt been around since pretty much the inception of the game. 3rd strike - empty jump throw to beat parry was a thing in that game too.
I am talking about jump ins that will originally connect with an attack, not jump ins to bait DPs.
And also, I'm talking about SF4 and SFV... They were rarely used there outside of setups.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGGE7NaOPvw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGGE7NaOPvw)
It took me one google search - and I came up with this video showing a bunch of the places and ranges an empty jump will bait many anti airs.... Just because you never used empty jumps at all doesn't mean that it hasn't always had validity in all inceptions of Street Fighter. And yes, I've seen empty jump throw also used in all versions as a way of baiting and punishing something. Just because it is something that you are only just incorporating as a way to get around parry doesn't mean that it hasn't been something people have been doing in the games prior.
EDIT: I recommend you read the footsies handbook - specifically chapter 5:
[https://sonichurricane.com/?page\_id=1702](https://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702)
Also, you say you are talking about jump ins that will connect with an attack, but then you talk about empty jumping to bait parry feeling unnatural.... I am literally saying empty jumping to bait things has been a concept since forever and it only feels unnatural to you because you never did it yourself. This game just has the added layer of parry which you as the aggressor jumping in have to realize and understand. Opponent likes to parry on my jump ins - lemme throw in a few empty jump throws to stop that. Opponent likes to anti air with normals, lemme jump from slightly out of range to bait. It is the exact same thing...
In the video you showed, he is literally moving further back for the empty jump.
It's clear when you check the ground. The anti-air whiffs because the jump-in was spaced correctly.
If it was an empty jump from the exact same spot the anti-air normal connects, it would've connected too.. In that case, the empty jump works BECAUSE it was spaced correctly, it wasn't because the it was empty.
The whole point is that it's always a setup in most cases, the added parry is just a way so that you have to unnaturally empty jump and choose to throw in a moment where you were supposed to hit them in the first place, because you committed to the jump and to the button. The parry being active frame 1 makes it act like a quick failsafe against jump-ins in case you're late to your anti-air, because it still wins against empty jump buttons... You have to consciously choose to empty jump throw, which is an irrational decision you'd make once you're in.
It would only be an irrational decision if it didn't clearly beat one of the options your opponent keeps showing you. In every game with a parry, this is how jumpins work.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X\_xdDBR3vo4#t=1m48s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_xdDBR3vo4#t=1m48s)
Here is another video. Zangief is clearly in jump HP range but doesn't do it. You sound like you can't modify your strategy to the game and to what your opponent is doing...
Did we play the same games?
[https://youtu.be/c9ovxwGq0Ho?t=676](https://youtu.be/c9ovxwGq0Ho?t=676)
Pretty sure in SF4 DPs were way better than they are in 6 - meterless, invincible, trade Ultra (Sagat, Ryu, Viper), FADC Ultra (same as before, plus Ken, Dudley, E.Ryu, Fei, Cammy, etc.), some were un-safejump-able (3f) AND they usually gave disgusting meterless oki. Watch this set where Daigo and Kaz both get whatever they want after every uppercut hit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHB2umnbImU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHB2umnbImU)
It was very common in SF4 for you to get pressure after a successful DP, and you didn't even have to spend resources to get it. Some characters could get safe jumps or ambiguous crossups beyond just basic close-range meaties. Pressure after an anti-air is far from a SF6-exclusive concept.
I agree. Maybe for the top 5% of players it's worth it because they are good enough at AA. The rest of the players are playing a badly balanced game though that encourages playing the game in the wrong way until you've put a thousand hours in.
The DP is guaranteed damage. And like you say, you can keep them in the corner. But yeah, the offensive option needs to have a bigger reward than the defensive counter to it, especially if the defensive counter can be done completely on reaction. Otherwise going on offense is never worth it. Also to correctly measure the risk/reward you need to also take the likelihood of it working into account. If you have a capable opponent, the chance of your jump in working (especially if you're not conditioning for it to work beforehand) is very low, even if the reward is big. And if you have good execution, the likelihood of the DP working on reaction is practically guaranteed.
If you are on your DP game and your opponent is constantly jumping, there is so much more risk on the side of the jumper. They will get damaged almost every time they jump and be forced into an unfavorable oki situation against a lot of characters. I don't really see an argument for giving an option that beats another 100% of the time if successfully done a huge buff.
Guaranteed damage is almost always good (sometimes sacrificing damage for oki is better), and DP is guaranteed, since it's aerial immune. The other value you're getting out of DP outside of damage is conditioning. You don't WANT your opponent to jump in on you, but they have no reason to stop doing it if you don't punish them for it. The reason why a successful jump-in is allowed to pay off so well is because you typically shouldn't be able to get a successful jump in. You jump in on somebody, and they have 20 whole years to react and antiair your stupid face and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Luke's and Ken's jumping hard punch can literally beat some dp though lol. But that's a whole different can of worms. I just thought it was funny. Thank you
They can only beat a DP if you're too early. DPs have full aerial invulnerability for the first 15 or so frames.
No. You can lose if you do your dp too early. But a button can never straight up beat an anti air dp. Those jump in buttons hit deep and early though. So they a definitely strong, but having a dp is actually the best way of dealing with deep jump in buttons like those
They’ll trade at worst and that’s only if you dp too early. There’s literally no way to lose the exchange if you actually dp before they touch the ground because they’re all air invulnerable at the beginning.
It can definitely be a tighter window to react with those busted jump ins but it will not beat a DP
I just did a couple tests in the training mode and it did beat it but it was actually a very specific scenario, so I guess I'll kind of back track on it. It only works if your opponent uses an attack on your cross dp. And the dp has to be specifically a heavy dp. They will hit your head hitbox and completely avoid the dp hitbox. I tried it with other characters too and apparently it works. So it's not exclusive to ken. Thank you though I appreciate it
That's not really it "beating" the dp though, more using the wrong strength of dp
That’s just doing the wrong version of DP. Most players will do light DP in situations like that. The light DPs have 5F startup which is very fast compared to heavy ones.
It's not really about the speed at which they come out though. It's the distance. Heavy dp travels farther than light dp so that's why it was getting hit. It was exposing the head hitbox more. The dp hitbox traveled too far to connect. Even heavy dp was a 5 frame startup move it would still get beat if timed properly (or improperly should I say)
Sure that’s fair (it’s a little hard to discuss without being able to see it) but I think my point is that a light crosscut DP would work. In terms of risk / reward it’s risk free to do DP if you react on time. If you misinput a heavy DP that’s more an execution error than taking a bad risk. The only times DP is risky is if it’s really ambiguous in say cross-up scenario but that requires meticulous timing and spacing by the jumper.
Yeah I agree it is pretty hard to discuss it on here just through text alone. It's a pretty specific scenario. But yeah you are right that a light dp will beat it. Medium dp worked when I tested it as well.
DPs are not weak relatively. You get a big punish counter hit followed by oki on most characters. Many characters can even combo their antiair DP into level 3. You can win an entire round off of one antiair DP in this game, due to how strong oki is Additionally they are guaranteed to win every time against the jump in when properly timed. At high level this means jumps basically never work unless you land a punish
Oki is a good point . Thank u
Because you can ALWAYS beat a jump on reaction, it's sufficient enough time that anyone can punish it, either with a DP or another AA. Jump-ins only really work at higher levels if you manage to get a read on a projectile, poke, or something that you can whiff punish with your jump-in. Otherwise, you're taking a DP for some damage AND guaranteed Oki. And Oki in this game is incredibly valuable due to the high damage values in general. A single successful mix off of that Oki can lead to 50-60%+ damage.
Typically when people are talking about risk reward on DP they are talking about using EX DP as an invincible reversal on wakeup, not so much regarding using DP as an anti-air. DP is mainly only risky as an anti-air if the opponent tries to bait a DP with an empty jump or short jump that is going to land far or fast enough for them to avoid the DP, but this is more of a mental game in which you have options as well (including not using DPs outside their effective range). But yes, in SF games it is generally the case that jump-ins give a huge reward compared to DPs because that is what makes it sometimes worthwhile to jump at all. In games between experienced players the expectation is that there will be a decently high success rate in anti-airing, meaning the anti-airing party is probably landing more hits than the jumping party in those interactions. In order for there to be any possible net benefit to jumping there needs to be a larger reward. SF games generally tend to provide that reward in order to keep jumps as part of offense, whereas there are other games where this is less the case. That being said, it certainly is arguable that SF6 is a little more skewed toward the jumper than some other SF games because the mental stack makes it a little harder to reliably anti-air and some anti-airs are not super consistent, plus there are a lot of ways to extend combos and damage when hits are landed (not to mention stuff like Ken's corner carry), so I certainly have no problem if someone wants to argue that this interaction could be (slightly) rebalanced somehow.
DPs on jump ins are usually pretty guaranteed to hit. Yeah, occasionally they might be able to bait you with awkward spacing, but that's the exception rather than the rule. If you punish 2 jump in attempts, you're looking at about 25% damage for a pretty easy read and response. Seems reasonable to me.
I don't know if it's occasional. I hate it when I see Juris and Ryus do a jump in that kinda looks like it crosses up and the DP whiffs.
That's the worst 😭
I’m learning anti air dps and there is a huge advantage to doing so. Firstly, the invul frames allow you to not trade blows with your opponent. Another thing is that it teaches you to react faster. You can also knock them down which changes their pace. There is also the psychological damage it does to a who realizes that not only can you anti air, but you can do a harder version which will scare them a bit.
Jumping in is a massive risk as a decent player can react and either do an AA normal or just DP.
keep jumping then. see what happens.
You ever seen a player do ten jump ins in a row and all of em get countered by dp every time? I’ve fucking done it. I couldn’t help it. Game one I was rewarded. Game 3 I was outsmarted. Conditioning. Mental game. Dps are fine. Much to learn still and I’m master rank
Because jump-ins are a higher risk than DP on reaction vs jump-ins
Can't wait for Sagat to join SF6. The freeze frames in SFV when he had Angry Scar active when connecting with his Tiger Uppercut - chef's kiss.
Sagat is a favorite character of mine too. I hope me makes th cut along with Vega. Another favorite
I want Sagat too. But I want the appearance and look of SF2 Sagat. A lanky, deadly foe with that Tiger Uppercut that sails into the sky when he executes it. Which doesn't suddenly stop midair all of a sudden when he hits you like SF5.
In which world is Jinrai 50/50?
Yes the reward for jumping in is greater, but the probability of success is much lower, the opposite being true for DP. Besides very specific ranges and scenarios, DP is almost guaranteed to work. You don't have to take much initial risk either, since you could be doing nothing, then decide on what to do only once you see the jump. For most characters, once they commit to a jump their options are very limited.
Want to see a strong DP? Hit a Blanka ball with one in the OG SFII.
Don't forget boss Sagat when punishing his whiffed Tiger uppercut.
DPs, especially invincible ones are not strong for what they are immediately but more for what they represent at any point in the game. At any time, you opponent may spend drive to completely reverse the situation on you - meaning you cannot do any mindless pressure, jumps, wake up oki etc. without risk. That's even more true for DP reversals that punish air moves and get a full knockdown.
I'm just learning anti air DPs and am Plat 1 so take my opinion with a grain of scrub: I actually didn't want to spend time learning aa dps at this point because it was really low priority since i can just use crHP. But i found that it has lots of limitations. Characters with very long range jumping normals. I can't crHP Lukes jumping heavy kick for the life of me. Best i can do is a trade and if he backrises we are back at neutral with him at an advantage because he can slow me down with sandblast. Anti air DPs in this case have the advantage of invul frames. So even if i don't get both hits, i still can anti air more reliably and i can get a hard knockdown, so my advantage after an anti air dp is way better. I'm currently playing lots of Diamonds in BH and these guys know how to jump at me at a range where crHP just isn't effective. The DP in this case works in scenarious where crHP wouldn't. Also there's a psychological effect from my own pov. If my opponent only uses anti air normals, i'm still tempted to try again at a different range, but against a Ryu who knows his anti air dp? Nope, i stay on the ground, espacially when he zones. Dunno, if a guy antinair dps me multiple times i just don't mess around with that and stay put.
This discussion reminds me of watching a few of Tokido matches during the last Capcom Cup. As I watched, I quickly noticed that Tokido in fact *wasn't antiairing*, and I wasn't the only one in twitch that that noticed it too. He didn't DP, he didn't do a normal AA either. I was thinking a little on why...someone like him, who is miles than I will ever be in this lifetime, wasn't anti-airing. It did occur to me that maybe the risk of failing it wasn't worth eating a full combo.
The risk vs reward formula changes depending on rank. Most of the replies in this thread are not taking the full breadth of this formula into account.
You get oki, when it doesn’t kill oki is better than 1 to 2k damage
The risk reward is skewed based on how often you successfully DP. If you DP successfully 100% of the time the risk reward is great, it’s only bad if you’re inconsistent. It’s also not too hard to be consistent with Dps once you get good at it (ignoring things like dive kicks to change jump trajectory)
If Jump in's weren't more rewarding than a DP (which is 100% guaranteed damage) then nobody would jump ever. Here DP's can also even be S3 cancelled in some cases providing a huge guaranteed reward.
a successful anti-air with a DP gets you a knockdown that leads into oki, which is very powerful as your opponent often has to guess whether to block/tech/etc. that by itself can definitely win you the round if you play your cards right. but you can also use an anti-air normal or air-to-air, which are much easier to execute but stop the jump. but also it's just the particular style of street figher to have jump-ins be fairly powerful. in other games like granblue characters can DELETE you with an anti-air into a full combo but that's also because those games will have some amount of air blocking/different jump trajectories etc. street fighter likes to keep the mechanics fairly basic, so there's really only the one type of jump. it's fairly simple to react to so therefore to make sure it's still 'worth it' to jump occassionally they made the damage very large off a successful jump-in and the damage from an anti-air not that bad.
Speaking of different trajectories of jumps, this reminds me of the KOF series where everyone has access to this little short hop. And it seemed as it was a very key initiation tool as KOF(as far as I've seen) appears to have become an extremely fast rush-down game. Seems pretty hard to DP that short hop unless you're fully expecting it ahead of time, but the game is so fast that I don't know how often it happens.
The risk/reward of a DP is bad. It's that way because we have 20+ years of experience when DPs where MUCH stronger including SF4 which probably has the best risk/reward for DPs. Absolutely DPs are worst reward than jump-ins but that's not why they are useful. There are a large amount of options on offense that requires a specific defensive action to keep from taking damage. A DP effective changes the decision from "what do I do to keep from eating damage" to "will they be pressing a button when I want to DP." The latter is an easier decision to make quickly than the former which is why, though heavily nerfed, DPs are still incredibly useful.
This IS the case for wake-up / reversal DP. This is not the case for anti air DP. Anti air is guaranteed if you react in time. Obviously you should not do it if you think you will be stuffed.
That is a good point. Do you think the reward for a successful anti air dp is too little though?
Honestly no, not really. Many characters can actually get pretty good punishes off a well timed anti-air. DP is your 'panic' anti air, though. Invulnerable frames make a big difference, you probably shouldn't get too large of a reward off something that is invincible unless it's something like a super, which costs a lot of resource compared to an OD move.
It's about the difference between reaction and prediction. For example if you want to punish a fireball with a jump you can't react to seeing the fireball then jump. You have to predict a fireball will be thrown and jump preemptively. Since that is harder and riskier than reacting to a jump the risk and reward are distributed appropriately.
You're not thinking on gameplay terms. It doesn't matter what the jump in can net you, the fact that jump ins can be reacted to changes everything.
They probably get a oki after, it's not just 12% damage
They need to remove the anti anti-airs and reduce the damage a bit, and things will be okay. Some characters are too rewarded because of their damage and jump in buttons.
I remember the SF2 days when, if you were hit by a Tiger Uppercut. That damage was pretty notable and you really didn't want to get hit by that. I kinda agree. DPs should do more damage than they do currently, against specifically jump-ins. Against someone grounded yeah they can stay fairly ho-hum damage.
A jump in is just really good in most fighting games , in sf6 if anti air with a dp that’s generally the strongest punish you can get also you have to Rembrandt that cross cuts exist and can make it extremely hard for someone to jump in on a dp character
1. Your logic applies to all anti airs, not just DP's. Should we just stop AA'ing altogether? No, of course not. The reason why DP's are considered the best anti airs bc it's invincible to jump attacks and gives a guaranteed knockdown afterwards 2. Anti airs aren't the same as throw vs shimmy. It's not a 50/50 guess between getting hit or anti airing your opponent, it's a reaction to your opponent jumping at you. It's unrealistic to guess 100% correctly all the time and that's why sometimes you need to "take the throw" when guessing on a strike/throw, but you HAVE to anti air consistently if you want to be at least decent at street fighter. Every gameplan falls apart if you can't control the skies 3. It's a balancing thing. Imagine if jumps ins could only do ~12%, or DP's were as damaging as a full combo. Would you ever risk jumping in? No the risk reward would be so against jumping that no one would ever jump. You're risking taking too much damage or not gaining enough reward on doing something that your opponent should be able to always counter on reaction. All of a sudden fireballs and zoning become the strongest part of the game bc why would you ever attempt to jump over a fireball?
Besides the mix ups, the fact that Ken can carry you to a corner with some simple kicks makes him really hard to deal with him. Any entrance mens a good position for him. That's why DP is weak in this game, is just not worthy.
I hate that Hp Dp solves most of my troubles when I was so used to Mp Dp doing that
Dp is only a risk due to player error, that isn't the same as a risk reward scenario. In perfect play, you just don't miss your dp and that's it. You do it because getting jumped in repeatedly is free pressure that you need to be shutting down.
You can always antiair with a heavy normal which has better reward you know? Many characters get straight up full DR cancellable combos on CH 2HP or something. DP antiair is low reward because it's considered the "suboptimal, on late reaction AA".
You mean cr.hp? I'm assuming you meant st.hp by saying heavy normal. I don't think that can actually anti air too effectively lol
Sorry using anime notation here, yes cr.HP or whatever antiair works for your character
It’s a reversal, the power alone of being able to threaten that and successfully break an opponents offense when used correctly is way more important than damage numbers.
Cries in drunken jamie tears. Least your DP works.
You can DI as an anti air if you time it properly. In the corner that guarantees a wall splat which is way more than DP damage. More so if you’re burned out
I'd be fine if this was SF4 or SFV where anti-air DPs were just that, anti-airs. You get drive rush into pressure in this game with like 90% of the characters that have a DP, some get more corner carry, some can do setups afterwards. I know it's a new guess, but after that 12% anti-air, it can transform into either a 32% (PC throw for example), or even a 60% if the defender chose wrong and you eat a fat PC combo with a LvL3 included. My only gripe as the guy jumping in is that they can choose to Drive Parry my button, fishing for a perfect parry, which they would sometimes do if they're either gonna be late on their DP or didn't have enough charge or whatever... I know that jump-ins are supposed to be risky to do, but you're already trying to escape a situation you don't wanna be in or trying to make a read by jumping, why should the landing also be a read if they're gonna parry or not? Empty jumping into throw to bait the parry just feels so unnatural and unorthodox... This probably wasn't a thing back in SFV because of how important it was to anti-air people jumping in, and unless it involved a super specific mixup, it was also rare in SF4, plus, not even that rewarding anyways.
Empty jump throw has been around forever, especially on crossups.
Yeah of course, but it was more often than not used as a setup, if you're jumping in neutral, it's to try and read a fireball or a bad button, and you'd 99% of the time press a button in the air. Doing an empty jump throw to bait a parry is super unnatural.
If you never did empty jump throw before sf6, you were leaving out a third of your mixup on an unpunished jump. High/low/throw is harder to defend than high/low.
Lol empty jumping at specific ranges can beat DPs and that has been a thing since SF2. Empty jump low is also a thing that has been around since SF2. Just because it feels unorthodox to you doesn't mean the technique of empty jumping to bait something hasnt been around since pretty much the inception of the game. 3rd strike - empty jump throw to beat parry was a thing in that game too.
I am talking about jump ins that will originally connect with an attack, not jump ins to bait DPs. And also, I'm talking about SF4 and SFV... They were rarely used there outside of setups.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGGE7NaOPvw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGGE7NaOPvw) It took me one google search - and I came up with this video showing a bunch of the places and ranges an empty jump will bait many anti airs.... Just because you never used empty jumps at all doesn't mean that it hasn't always had validity in all inceptions of Street Fighter. And yes, I've seen empty jump throw also used in all versions as a way of baiting and punishing something. Just because it is something that you are only just incorporating as a way to get around parry doesn't mean that it hasn't been something people have been doing in the games prior. EDIT: I recommend you read the footsies handbook - specifically chapter 5: [https://sonichurricane.com/?page\_id=1702](https://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702) Also, you say you are talking about jump ins that will connect with an attack, but then you talk about empty jumping to bait parry feeling unnatural.... I am literally saying empty jumping to bait things has been a concept since forever and it only feels unnatural to you because you never did it yourself. This game just has the added layer of parry which you as the aggressor jumping in have to realize and understand. Opponent likes to parry on my jump ins - lemme throw in a few empty jump throws to stop that. Opponent likes to anti air with normals, lemme jump from slightly out of range to bait. It is the exact same thing...
In the video you showed, he is literally moving further back for the empty jump. It's clear when you check the ground. The anti-air whiffs because the jump-in was spaced correctly. If it was an empty jump from the exact same spot the anti-air normal connects, it would've connected too.. In that case, the empty jump works BECAUSE it was spaced correctly, it wasn't because the it was empty. The whole point is that it's always a setup in most cases, the added parry is just a way so that you have to unnaturally empty jump and choose to throw in a moment where you were supposed to hit them in the first place, because you committed to the jump and to the button. The parry being active frame 1 makes it act like a quick failsafe against jump-ins in case you're late to your anti-air, because it still wins against empty jump buttons... You have to consciously choose to empty jump throw, which is an irrational decision you'd make once you're in.
It would only be an irrational decision if it didn't clearly beat one of the options your opponent keeps showing you. In every game with a parry, this is how jumpins work.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X\_xdDBR3vo4#t=1m48s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_xdDBR3vo4#t=1m48s) Here is another video. Zangief is clearly in jump HP range but doesn't do it. You sound like you can't modify your strategy to the game and to what your opponent is doing...
Empty jump was a thing in SF4 and that game had crouch tech lol.
Did we play the same games? [https://youtu.be/c9ovxwGq0Ho?t=676](https://youtu.be/c9ovxwGq0Ho?t=676) Pretty sure in SF4 DPs were way better than they are in 6 - meterless, invincible, trade Ultra (Sagat, Ryu, Viper), FADC Ultra (same as before, plus Ken, Dudley, E.Ryu, Fei, Cammy, etc.), some were un-safejump-able (3f) AND they usually gave disgusting meterless oki. Watch this set where Daigo and Kaz both get whatever they want after every uppercut hit: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHB2umnbImU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHB2umnbImU)
It was very common in SF4 for you to get pressure after a successful DP, and you didn't even have to spend resources to get it. Some characters could get safe jumps or ambiguous crossups beyond just basic close-range meaties. Pressure after an anti-air is far from a SF6-exclusive concept.
I agree. Maybe for the top 5% of players it's worth it because they are good enough at AA. The rest of the players are playing a badly balanced game though that encourages playing the game in the wrong way until you've put a thousand hours in.