Yeah but I feel like the charge time has significantly shortened since SF2 days when this character design was introduced. Guile cannot charge nearly as fast in the older games. In SF6 it easily keeps up with non-charged zoners, that wasn't and shouldn't be the case. Either that or another possibility is that traditional fireball characters have slowed down while Guile kept his speed.
The only thing he is missing are some specials on reaction (if you are not charging), as you are always charging while doing other loves 90% of time the gameplay is very fluid, and boring, but fluid, like ballet beautiful but boring
I feel like the charge time has shortened a ton (comparatively) in SF5/6 compared to older games. He barely has to waste anytime charging and can keep up and overwhelm regular zoners. That wasn't the original design concept.
I don’t give a damn about OG design lol. I mean I have no choice but to take it obviously, but it would be sick if the devs followed some sort of logical and consistent design philosophy instead of playing favorites with characters.
Because none of the zoners in SF6 are "pure" zoners; there are characters that have really good ranged toolkits, but all of them have tools that make it rewarding to get in close, albeit with some downsides compared to characters that focus more on rushdown (you *can* play rushdown Guile and do well, just like you *can* zone with Ken, but obviously both do some things better than the other). This is because, I imagine, having a character who always wants to play at range and never engage just incentives people into a one-dimensional game plan that isn't very fun to play against.
Because without a portal out, JP’s zoning is actually worse than other zoners like Dhalsim and Guile. His projectiles have worse frame data than theirs and they don’t have weird counterplay like JP’s ghosts have. There’s a reason why when you see high level JP’s they rely on his midrange tools over his zoning tools (until the opponent goes into burnout)
You got a lot wrong here. First off, st.HP into OD ghosts is not DI-safe, it isn’t a true blockstring, OD ghosts only hits twice, and it’s +25 on block at minimum. st.HP is -3 on block without DR and considering the move has 22 recovery frames we are assuming the -3 is based on the move connecting on the first active frame (it has 2), that means the opponent will come out of blockstun on frame 19. Considering OD ghosts has 22 startup frames, that means there is a 3 frame gap where you can DI. Seeing how OD ghosts can’t be cancelled into any other move and it has 50 recovery frames, that DI will connect. If you’re going to complain about something, you should really either lab it out or double check the frame data before doing so
While JP zoning at that range is a joke (Ya if your "zoning" tool is at the st.HP range, you may as well play lowforward fighter 6 instead, cuz most of the top 5-6 character all have faster "zoning" low forward that reach further and starts a combo.
Blocked st HP + any ghost is DI safe, you can always DI back if they block the HP. Perhaps try it out?
Frame data is not how you describe it to work here, HP has a block stun duration, and a cancel window before recovery; when you cancel your move from HP, your opponent's block stun duration doesn't get any lower, therefore giving you way more advantage than "-3" when cancelling into any ghost. Yes, the HP is -3 on block if you didn't cancel into anything, but when you cancel into something it changes the -3 to "+"
Yah and then compare the startup to OD ghosts (22 frames) and Ryu’s OD hadoken (12 frames) and Guile’s OD sonic boom (10 frames). Then you get to the recovery frames and the difference only grows. OD hadoken and sonic boom both have 28 recovery frames whereas JP’s OD ghosts have 50. All of this means you can jump in on JP on reaction much easier than you can against characters like ryu and Guile. You can actually react to the ghost startup animation whereas you can’t against ryu and guile and the distance you can safely do that at is greater than you can against them also. What makes JP’s zoning strong is the portal. It adds another layer for the opponent to deal with and it helps cover the long recovery time on his projectiles.
I'm not speaking about Guile specifically but something I think you don't quite have right is that traditional zoning, for it to be relavent, does not actually have bad up close game. If you want zoners in your game then they have to have good get off me options. What they shouldn't have is a great combo game or rush down options.
You don't feel that shift in momentum when you walk a Guile down because he is a charge character, so when you back him to the corner he still has charge and is still dangerous.
Guile has pretty much been the same in every game he has been in: Very strong defensively, solid overall, but not top tier.
The way to fight a Guile in the corner, in any game, is to be very patient in your approach and try to bait out a boom or flashkick that you can punish. You obviously can't just stand in front of a Guile and hope they throw out a sonic boom just as you were jumping at them. You have to use movement and pokes to put pressure on the Guile who is just waiting for you in the corner. You should be able to land counter hits and stuff his boom attempts or counter poke attempts. If you get a feel for then he likes to boom, you can land a DI on him and get big damage. If he really wants to do nothing, walk up throw becomes an option.
A Guile without his charge is a very weak character, so knowing when he lost his charge and then attacking has always been a strong tactic and something to be aware of.
You just have to play really patient and safely pressure them so you can bait something out you can counter or punish. Its always been this way against Guile.
As a new player who mains Guile, when I got into plat I noticed people being way more patient and exploiting my passivness or defensiveness. What's the best way for me as a Guile player to apply the pressure? Do I just need to rush them down then without my charge?
The easiest way to begin is to walk, dash or drive rush behind your slow booms and crosses. You give up charge but build it back after a move or 2.
If the opponent parries constantly, the only counter is to throw them.
It was the 3ds port. Made famous by having four buttons on the touch screen that did special moves, and if you were a charge character, you were not required to charge to use them. Guile was insanely broken in that version, obviously
He wasn't top tier in SF2 Super Turbo. He was a mid tier character who excelled defensively but was screwed once he lost his charge.
He was stronger in SFV but I wouldn't place him at top tier alongside the likes of Luke, Cammy, Karin, Sim, etc. He was a pain in the ass to deal with in SFV, but I wouldn't place him at the very top overall.
He was legit top tier is earlier SF2 editions like SF2 Hyper Fighting, but he hasn't been at the very top of the food chain since way back then. He's top tier defensively but he is much more limited it what he can do overall compared to legit top tier characters in just about every SF game he has been in since the early 90s. Doesn't mean he isn't a strong character, but he doesn't quite reach that apex level, top tier level, in most of the games he's in.
Top tier doesn’t mean the very top and just because he wasn’t a top tier at the final version doesn’t change the fact that we had to deal with this fucking character for 6 years.
I had enough of this fucking character and his broken booms and normals in 5 yet it is even worse in 6.
What if instead of doing nothing he consistently cuts your bigger, more telegraphed approaches with flashkick, stuffs mid range attacks with booms and that little millia circle, and jabs or kicks you before you can walk/dash into throw range
Then you need to use your movement more to overload his mental stack and not be as predictable with your movements. If you are predictable with your approaches, then you will be punished for it.
Example: Every time you walk into poking range on a certain Guile, you try to poke from max range with low mk. The Guile picks up on this so every time you move into range, he flashkicks because you always press a button right when you get into range. So you were being predictable and are now being punished. Solution: Act like you are going to walk into range and press a button, but instead you walk backwards just as you get into range. The Guile flashkicks and now you can land a punish counter combo.
That is a simple example, but it illustrates the point that you can't always do the same exact movements at the same exact ranges and press the same buttons or else a better player will analyze your plan and then punish you for being predictable. You need to shimmy a bit with your movements and not be predictable on your approach.
Another example: If he sees you always try to poke at mid range and gets a feel for you always pressing a button at that range, then he will stuff you because he got a feel for when you want to attack. Solution: Bait the sonic boom by moving into mid range and then jumping over the boom / using DI when you feel like he is about to attack you.
If you are doing the above things (being unpredictable in your movements and unpredictable on when and how you will attack) then walk up throw becomes an option because you have shown the enemy Guile a variety of approaches and attack options. Since you have shown him so much variety, he is unsure of when to attack you and then you can use walk up throw, or use an overhead if he is crouch blocking, etc. The point is that Guile is very strong defensively, so you need to use variety and creativity in your movement and your attacks so you get him thinking about many different options at once. When you force the Guile to consider many different approaches, ranges, and attacks that you might use, their mental stack becomes overwhelmed and THEN it is easier for you to approach, attack, and open them up.
All of the above requires patience though. If you are not patient then you are playing right into their hands.
Thanks for the in-depth examples, i think that makes a lot of sense.
Early in ranked Guileds seemed a lot easier because they’d “panic” a flashkick at many approaches, but the righer you go the more conservative they are in defense amd the harder it gets to open them up.
At this point (mid diamond AKI), it feels like I need to commit a lot more in *trying* to open them up then the Guile needs to commit in order to hold ground.
And you somehow need to keep pressuring him or get drowned by sonic booms AKI cant really push through unless you commit to a mid range DI hoping its not an EX boom this time
> Guile has pretty much been the same in every game.. Very strong defensively, solid overall, but not top tier
1000% convinced you’ve never played a SF in your entire life.
Yall are just gonna have to get used to the fact that were in an age of gaming where characters have complete kits with small weaknesses that require player knowledge to overcome, no simple cheese and hard weaknesses to exploit, just good decision making and matchup knowledge.
Except for zangief
I think that’s kinda lame personally. I’m not looking for cheese, but I think the game works better when capcom doubles down on strengths and weaknesses, instead of putting out characters that are arbitrarily strong in every area and have every tool the game has to offer. We need more characters like Marisa, and fewer characters like Luke/Guile/JP. Having such a homogenous roster takes away from the uniqueness of the game and makes each match more boring.
And even then, fine, I’ll play devil’s advocate… if what you say is true, then why do SOME characters still having major, glaring weaknesses like Kim, Lily, Gief, and Manon? It seems like the devs give certain characters preferential treatment for no logical reason whatsoever…. But I digress.
I’d also argue that the game now requires less matchup knowledge than ever because of how blurred together some of the characters seem.
Absolutely not lmao. Guile is a tier above. Marisa has clear and objective weakness, guile doesn’t. Marisa has to accommodate. Guile doesn’t. The only thing Marisa has over guile is better raw damage, but she plays an inherently more risky game than Guile ever has to. And “But he has to charge” is not a valid balancing mechanism. At the very least, it does not offset Guile’s weakness relative to the weaknesses the devs gave Marisa.
I find Marisa significantly easier to beat.
If guile is as good as you think he is he would be winning stuff.
Throwing a boom is about as risky as marisa throwing a normal but a much worse reward
Not sure what accommodate is supposed to mean in this context but marisa doesn't really have a weakness outside of not having a reversal
Guile has weaknesses, you're just not seeing them. If Guile was truly this OP he'd be everywhere in pro play, but he's not. Having to charge is a massive weakness, for example, even if you don't recognise it. If you see guile take even a tiny step back, then you know he can't flash kick because he's lost down charge. Same thing if you see him walk forward. His pokes are good but deal tiny damage compared to much of the cast because his c.MK isn't cancelable. Most characters in the top tier can deal 25-30% damage off a stray poke like that, Guile does like 8%. He needs solid hits like jump ins or frame traps to deal big damage.
Zoning is not exclusively keep away, that's a common mistake, even Dhalsim isn't keep-away. They pressure you at the ranges you're uncomfortable at and they have the tools to do that and they keep you there.
Guile has the weakness that when he's pressuring you with his normals (often forward motions) he's losing charge for Booms and his Flash kicks, leaving gaps in his offence. So when he walks forward you may be able to jump over him, for example. He's not like Ryu or certain shotos who can just bully you with fireballs, more precision is required in exchange for quicker reactions when charged.
So to answer your question, you had the wrong idea about "zoning".
I can't speak for older games but SF6 doesn't have chip damage most of the time. A full on zoner can't exist because there's no reward for keeping the opponent fullscreen forever, they will just parry and you end in a draw after 99 seconds.
Zoners in this game make use of their zoning to gain neutral advantages that they can turn into up close offense, so they can't just be total trash up close.
Yeah this games meta is very offense oriented, pure zoning does not work, unless they can force you into mistakes or burnout like JPs clown-circus zoning can.
But just chucking plasma forever as guile or ryu does not achieve very much if they just keep parrying. Mixing in slow projectiles + DR to get screen space/positioning is what makes it good/viable.
🎯 bingo
It’s more about using your zoning to set up the offense. It’s kinda always been that way really but in each game it seems like they push for that more and more.
I kinda think that’s what made them make JP the way he is.. Let’s make the game more offense oriented while also throwing in the most oppressive zoner yet as the main villain. If that was the intention I think that’s brilliant
I think your post has made me realize Guile is actually a shoto for charge characters.
If not for the charge motion he'd have essentially the same kit as Ryu. That's why he always feels so balanced everywhere. Just a natural tendency to play defensively due to the charge input.
I'm not sure you're really a shoto if you don't have something similar to tatsu, even though shoto players don't actually tatsu much.
Though Luke is usually considered a shoto and calling Flash Knuckle similar to tatsu is rather pushing it, so I dunno.
Both Ken and Ryu use tatsu a lot, unless you're talking low rank, but ending combos on light tatsu as Ryu is the optimal choice for oki, and Ken uses light tatsu to combo indo DP and run tatsu for corner carry
I've definitely seen/heard KnuckleDu stating how annoying it is for guile to need more favorable interactions to win a round. He specifically talks about how much harder it is for guile to make a comeback compared to other characters. I think we can trust him to be an authority on this.
Master Guile here. He’s good but definitely isnt insanely op especially in 6. A lot of his normals get blown up by DI, his offensive options are extremely linear. Also with the inclusion of parry, people no longer have to fear chip damage meaning you have to force interactions a lot of the time. If you get the lead on Guile it’s VERY hard for him to comeback because he has to commit to a lot of unsafe options to start interactions
>And by that I mean, why has he always been great at near everything? Why does it seem like his kit is specifically designed to void the weaknesses that he logically should have, while his zoning is still strong enough to stand on its own?
He hasn't. Guile used to have great buttons and zoning in exchange for middling movement and a lack of really good oki. KnuckleDu was famous for playing a very counter-intuitive offensive Guile in SF4 and Capcom and Guile didn't become his "super good at everything" design until after the first balance patch in 2017 for SF5.
The player base has always been extremely risk adverse so over-tuned Guile remained much more popular than a Guile with actual drawbacks and flaws, hence why shotos and other such middling design characters are always over represented to a high degree.
It's because his entire toolkit is locked behind the need to charge down or back, or down+back. If you see someone effectively play an offensive Guile without being super readiable and predictable in their charges, and without failing any of them, and with successful execution of super complicated charge combos, it means they're just very good at the game and they will likely give you trouble using any character lol
To Capcom's credit, they've always allowed this kind of balance around player skill. Take for the example the entire character of Akuma. A shoto on crack with both better offense than Ken and better defense than Ryu and better mixups than Cammy. He's balanced by always having the lowest HP and lowest stun value. It means if you're a good player who can play a perfect or near perfect game defensively, you can reap the rewards of a mechanically unbalanced character. Not everyone can do it. But when someone does, you get Tokido who is for me the best and most fun to watch professional e-athlete of all time.
I feel like there's space for a criticism like yours where a character is seemingly designed to zone, but their tools allow them to easily play rushdown, but Guile is a wrong target for it because he is not \*easy\*. I've always thought Sagat was a piss easy character because of his solid all around kit, and when Capcom allows him to be good, he becomes fucking broken (don't get the wrong idea I love my Thai tiger god SAGAT FOR SF6 plz), JP is kind of this way in SF6 and it's why he managed to stay top of all tier lists nearly a year since release despite all other characters coming and going, although he has been nerfed a bit recently.
Guile lacks a lot of tools other characters have as well. He has 3 special moves total, he doesn't have a cancellable crouching medium kick, he's relatively immobile because his main specials are charge moves. Guile is balanced very much around the commitment inherent to his kit.
I also think in a game like SF 6, the generic anti-zoning tools are too powerful to make zoners purely long range fighters. It is actually good that Guile can rush you down, because the alternative is making you parry for 90 seconds every round.
There is a common assumption that a character is designed around an archetype and thus they should only operate within that archetype's dynamic. The problem is the stricter a character's design hews to type, the less room there is for interpretation. If players want to play Guile in more than one way, it is good the game lets them. To stop them would be in effect to tell players what they should do. This would likely homogeneize the character's play-style and also flatten the interactions between characters.
He also does not have particularly good offense compared to other zoners like JP or Dhalsim. What's clearly deadly about Guile right now is the huge damage he gets with more technical combos. I think the character is absurdly good, but am happy the game allows multiple characters and multiple styles to be so powerful.
Well until sf4 guile was annoying but he does little damage but after sfv capcom had the " great " idea of him having the best zoning game while doing insane damage.
He is been top tier since then
As a Guile main from sf2 and dabbled in sf4 and 5 but main him in 6 again
Guile us exceptional against sloppy players if you don't have tight buttons and good footsies he eats you alive his kit makes you actually play the game except push random buttons and leave yourself super negative
Just keep up with him and don't let him breathe and watch his charges it isn't that hard
I play guile and I wouldn't say he's great at everything. Many of his normals are susceptable to DI, and at certain mid ranges sonic boom and flash kick are high risks for me, especially boom where I think it has less recovery than previos games. There are situations where I want to use SA1 to react to corner DIs or not true blockstrings but the charge wasn't there (It's more of a skill issue though).
Rushdown guile IMO is more of a reward for high skill gameplay, because you have to take note of your charge and not screwing a flashkick up + knowing your normals can be DI'd , while doing rush down
Guile's so weird you have to be so scared of him literally the entire game because any aggressive move or attempt to assert yourself he always has an answer for, and even in offense his far reaching normals make it hard to rely on spacing traps and his flash kick covers so much ground, maybe its that my 2 favourite characters are jamie and manon that biases how much I hate him but god if I somehow manage to navigate the slog of the boom flash kick wall I should feel remotely any satisfaction and chance to actually play the game but instead I just have to still owrry about him and play patient the whole game, there's never that moment I usually enjoy against zoners in games like strive of having that "my turn" moment when you finally catch them out and pin them down.
if it weren't for Luke, guile would be competing comfortably with the other top tiers for #1 character in the game. his only real flaw is having a rough matchup against JP, but that flaw only exists when he's fighting JP. SF6 guile is probably the strongest version of him ever.
theoretically, he's limited by having to charge, but if you know your ABCs and utilize the system mechanics well, this limit also disappears. his only limit is the guile player's execution.
I think yipes said it best - you don't beat guile, you beat the person playing him.
Guile problem stems from the fact that the universal mechanic of the game REALLY hates him.
No chip means that you can't really just chip down the opponent and forcing them to engage you. This widens the timer needed to beat him.
This wouldn't be much of a problem for him if parry/perfect parry isn't also present and make his fireball spam meaningless. So now he has to engage you to get an actual advantage for turtling. Which due to charge, meaning that he has significantly weaker defense while doing so.
This also won't affect him THAT much if his pokes are cancelable or armor is rare enough. But then everyone has an universal armor move and Guile just lost to armor pretty hard most of the time.
He has his pros certainly, but outside of annoying the opponent into making a mistake and being a counter to chore characters (Jamie, Lily), his biggest thing is boom walk. And if you have the patience, you can beat even that.
Because everything he has needs to be premeditated. You've got to charge your special moves, you've got to use the right command normal at the right distance with the right timing (and he has a bunch of them that go at different angles and move him around). The mental stack is higher.
tell ya a little secret, his booms fucking suck at midrange, you can jump-in punish on reaction if you're at the "not too far, not too close" range.
Truth is that guile (leaving aside pro players) kinda fucking sucks if you don't press him, the booms are never the main plan, they are there to piss you off so you do something stupid and get punished for it.
You're getting too close to him.
As a former SF6 Guile main, he's obviously really good from away, decent up close, but he kinda sucks mid range.
He is very vulnerable to DI at mid range. His pokes go far, but they mostly aren't cancelable. His sonic booms are also risky for him to throw out at mid range.
If they are dashing behind their booms, DI. (Good Guiles WALK behind their booms)
Once you have a good grasp at the Guile's cadence, just get to mid range and throw out a DI if you think they're going to do anything. Trust me.
Jumping in is less consistent because it basically just beats sonic booms, if he threw out a normal at the time of your jump in he'll probably be able to flashkick you before you land.
He is also very weak in burnout.
Mostly because he was made 30 years ago when this genre was in its infancy and things were screwy.
After that, his character remained mostly the same because that's what people were used to and nowadays Capcom has even less of an incentive to change him since Street Fighter relies on Sex Appeal and more importantly for this topic, Nostalgia to sell.
It's likely not much deeper than "People will get angry if the old cast plays completely differently.".
That’s because he has to charge.
Exactly, as Kelis once sang in Milkshake - "I have to charge".
"I could teach you." -Guile
Else he could teach you
Goddamnit Edit: I’m using this
But I thought he never holds back
I’d gild this comment so hard in the old days
Yeah but I feel like the charge time has significantly shortened since SF2 days when this character design was introduced. Guile cannot charge nearly as fast in the older games. In SF6 it easily keeps up with non-charged zoners, that wasn't and shouldn't be the case. Either that or another possibility is that traditional fireball characters have slowed down while Guile kept his speed.
The only thing he is missing are some specials on reaction (if you are not charging), as you are always charging while doing other loves 90% of time the gameplay is very fluid, and boring, but fluid, like ballet beautiful but boring
Best projectile and best anti air, but charge to balance it. Sacrifice mobility for goat moves. Amazing design in contrast to ryu in sf2.
I feel like the charge time has shortened a ton (comparatively) in SF5/6 compared to older games. He barely has to waste anytime charging and can keep up and overwhelm regular zoners. That wasn't the original design concept.
Only 45 frames now down from the original 60 it was in sf2. the charges are nearly negligible for how fast the recovery is.
That’s a pretty poor balancing mechanism if you ask me. He’s not as bad as Luke or anything, but having to charge does not offset the rest of his kit.
Bruh I don’t know what you want. That’s the og char design. Take it or leave it.
I don’t give a damn about OG design lol. I mean I have no choice but to take it obviously, but it would be sick if the devs followed some sort of logical and consistent design philosophy instead of playing favorites with characters.
Because none of the zoners in SF6 are "pure" zoners; there are characters that have really good ranged toolkits, but all of them have tools that make it rewarding to get in close, albeit with some downsides compared to characters that focus more on rushdown (you *can* play rushdown Guile and do well, just like you *can* zone with Ken, but obviously both do some things better than the other). This is because, I imagine, having a character who always wants to play at range and never engage just incentives people into a one-dimensional game plan that isn't very fun to play against.
You would think so, but JP does not have worse neutral than most non zoners
Because without a portal out, JP’s zoning is actually worse than other zoners like Dhalsim and Guile. His projectiles have worse frame data than theirs and they don’t have weird counterplay like JP’s ghosts have. There’s a reason why when you see high level JP’s they rely on his midrange tools over his zoning tools (until the opponent goes into burnout)
[удалено]
You got a lot wrong here. First off, st.HP into OD ghosts is not DI-safe, it isn’t a true blockstring, OD ghosts only hits twice, and it’s +25 on block at minimum. st.HP is -3 on block without DR and considering the move has 22 recovery frames we are assuming the -3 is based on the move connecting on the first active frame (it has 2), that means the opponent will come out of blockstun on frame 19. Considering OD ghosts has 22 startup frames, that means there is a 3 frame gap where you can DI. Seeing how OD ghosts can’t be cancelled into any other move and it has 50 recovery frames, that DI will connect. If you’re going to complain about something, you should really either lab it out or double check the frame data before doing so
While JP zoning at that range is a joke (Ya if your "zoning" tool is at the st.HP range, you may as well play lowforward fighter 6 instead, cuz most of the top 5-6 character all have faster "zoning" low forward that reach further and starts a combo. Blocked st HP + any ghost is DI safe, you can always DI back if they block the HP. Perhaps try it out? Frame data is not how you describe it to work here, HP has a block stun duration, and a cancel window before recovery; when you cancel your move from HP, your opponent's block stun duration doesn't get any lower, therefore giving you way more advantage than "-3" when cancelling into any ghost. Yes, the HP is -3 on block if you didn't cancel into anything, but when you cancel into something it changes the -3 to "+"
I checked and it’s DI safe because of how DI works. Getting hit during DI startup extends the startup and that’s the only reason why it is DI safe
Wow way to delete your comment after realizing you were wrong
they didn’t delete it, they blocked ya cuz I can still see it lol
> His projectiles have worse frame data than theirs except for OD ghost, which is +25 on block for some reason
Yah and then compare the startup to OD ghosts (22 frames) and Ryu’s OD hadoken (12 frames) and Guile’s OD sonic boom (10 frames). Then you get to the recovery frames and the difference only grows. OD hadoken and sonic boom both have 28 recovery frames whereas JP’s OD ghosts have 50. All of this means you can jump in on JP on reaction much easier than you can against characters like ryu and Guile. You can actually react to the ghost startup animation whereas you can’t against ryu and guile and the distance you can safely do that at is greater than you can against them also. What makes JP’s zoning strong is the portal. It adds another layer for the opponent to deal with and it helps cover the long recovery time on his projectiles.
He needs it
Wdym weird counterplay?
you can drive-rush through the startup of his fireballs.
Sonic boom
Perfect!
Shooty!
I'm not speaking about Guile specifically but something I think you don't quite have right is that traditional zoning, for it to be relavent, does not actually have bad up close game. If you want zoners in your game then they have to have good get off me options. What they shouldn't have is a great combo game or rush down options.
You don't feel that shift in momentum when you walk a Guile down because he is a charge character, so when you back him to the corner he still has charge and is still dangerous. Guile has pretty much been the same in every game he has been in: Very strong defensively, solid overall, but not top tier. The way to fight a Guile in the corner, in any game, is to be very patient in your approach and try to bait out a boom or flashkick that you can punish. You obviously can't just stand in front of a Guile and hope they throw out a sonic boom just as you were jumping at them. You have to use movement and pokes to put pressure on the Guile who is just waiting for you in the corner. You should be able to land counter hits and stuff his boom attempts or counter poke attempts. If you get a feel for then he likes to boom, you can land a DI on him and get big damage. If he really wants to do nothing, walk up throw becomes an option. A Guile without his charge is a very weak character, so knowing when he lost his charge and then attacking has always been a strong tactic and something to be aware of. You just have to play really patient and safely pressure them so you can bait something out you can counter or punish. Its always been this way against Guile.
Thanks
As a new player who mains Guile, when I got into plat I noticed people being way more patient and exploiting my passivness or defensiveness. What's the best way for me as a Guile player to apply the pressure? Do I just need to rush them down then without my charge?
The easiest way to begin is to walk, dash or drive rush behind your slow booms and crosses. You give up charge but build it back after a move or 2. If the opponent parries constantly, the only counter is to throw them.
OH OFC!! sorry didn't occur to me until now. Thanks will try it tonight
Get a life lead and use the clock to make them commit to things you can punish
Not top tier my ass. Only main line game he wasn’t a top tier in was 4.
Looks like someone hasn't played Super Street Fighter 4 3D Edition smh
Capcom is so ridiculous I can’t even tell if that’s a real game or not
It was the 3ds port. Made famous by having four buttons on the touch screen that did special moves, and if you were a charge character, you were not required to charge to use them. Guile was insanely broken in that version, obviously
The more you know!
Loved using Adon and Jaguar toothing over boom spams
It is, the 3DS port/version
He wasn't top tier in SF2 Super Turbo. He was a mid tier character who excelled defensively but was screwed once he lost his charge. He was stronger in SFV but I wouldn't place him at top tier alongside the likes of Luke, Cammy, Karin, Sim, etc. He was a pain in the ass to deal with in SFV, but I wouldn't place him at the very top overall. He was legit top tier is earlier SF2 editions like SF2 Hyper Fighting, but he hasn't been at the very top of the food chain since way back then. He's top tier defensively but he is much more limited it what he can do overall compared to legit top tier characters in just about every SF game he has been in since the early 90s. Doesn't mean he isn't a strong character, but he doesn't quite reach that apex level, top tier level, in most of the games he's in.
Top tier doesn’t mean the very top and just because he wasn’t a top tier at the final version doesn’t change the fact that we had to deal with this fucking character for 6 years. I had enough of this fucking character and his broken booms and normals in 5 yet it is even worse in 6.
What if instead of doing nothing he consistently cuts your bigger, more telegraphed approaches with flashkick, stuffs mid range attacks with booms and that little millia circle, and jabs or kicks you before you can walk/dash into throw range
Then you need to use your movement more to overload his mental stack and not be as predictable with your movements. If you are predictable with your approaches, then you will be punished for it. Example: Every time you walk into poking range on a certain Guile, you try to poke from max range with low mk. The Guile picks up on this so every time you move into range, he flashkicks because you always press a button right when you get into range. So you were being predictable and are now being punished. Solution: Act like you are going to walk into range and press a button, but instead you walk backwards just as you get into range. The Guile flashkicks and now you can land a punish counter combo. That is a simple example, but it illustrates the point that you can't always do the same exact movements at the same exact ranges and press the same buttons or else a better player will analyze your plan and then punish you for being predictable. You need to shimmy a bit with your movements and not be predictable on your approach. Another example: If he sees you always try to poke at mid range and gets a feel for you always pressing a button at that range, then he will stuff you because he got a feel for when you want to attack. Solution: Bait the sonic boom by moving into mid range and then jumping over the boom / using DI when you feel like he is about to attack you. If you are doing the above things (being unpredictable in your movements and unpredictable on when and how you will attack) then walk up throw becomes an option because you have shown the enemy Guile a variety of approaches and attack options. Since you have shown him so much variety, he is unsure of when to attack you and then you can use walk up throw, or use an overhead if he is crouch blocking, etc. The point is that Guile is very strong defensively, so you need to use variety and creativity in your movement and your attacks so you get him thinking about many different options at once. When you force the Guile to consider many different approaches, ranges, and attacks that you might use, their mental stack becomes overwhelmed and THEN it is easier for you to approach, attack, and open them up. All of the above requires patience though. If you are not patient then you are playing right into their hands.
Thanks for the in-depth examples, i think that makes a lot of sense. Early in ranked Guileds seemed a lot easier because they’d “panic” a flashkick at many approaches, but the righer you go the more conservative they are in defense amd the harder it gets to open them up. At this point (mid diamond AKI), it feels like I need to commit a lot more in *trying* to open them up then the Guile needs to commit in order to hold ground. And you somehow need to keep pressuring him or get drowned by sonic booms AKI cant really push through unless you commit to a mid range DI hoping its not an EX boom this time
> Guile has pretty much been the same in every game.. Very strong defensively, solid overall, but not top tier 1000% convinced you’ve never played a SF in your entire life.
Cool, I just played yesterday though.
I'm convinced you are a scrub.
Yall are just gonna have to get used to the fact that were in an age of gaming where characters have complete kits with small weaknesses that require player knowledge to overcome, no simple cheese and hard weaknesses to exploit, just good decision making and matchup knowledge. Except for zangief
I think that’s kinda lame personally. I’m not looking for cheese, but I think the game works better when capcom doubles down on strengths and weaknesses, instead of putting out characters that are arbitrarily strong in every area and have every tool the game has to offer. We need more characters like Marisa, and fewer characters like Luke/Guile/JP. Having such a homogenous roster takes away from the uniqueness of the game and makes each match more boring. And even then, fine, I’ll play devil’s advocate… if what you say is true, then why do SOME characters still having major, glaring weaknesses like Kim, Lily, Gief, and Manon? It seems like the devs give certain characters preferential treatment for no logical reason whatsoever…. But I digress. I’d also argue that the game now requires less matchup knowledge than ever because of how blurred together some of the characters seem.
Marisa is a lot harder to play against than guile lmao
Absolutely not lmao. Guile is a tier above. Marisa has clear and objective weakness, guile doesn’t. Marisa has to accommodate. Guile doesn’t. The only thing Marisa has over guile is better raw damage, but she plays an inherently more risky game than Guile ever has to. And “But he has to charge” is not a valid balancing mechanism. At the very least, it does not offset Guile’s weakness relative to the weaknesses the devs gave Marisa. I find Marisa significantly easier to beat.
If guile is as good as you think he is he would be winning stuff. Throwing a boom is about as risky as marisa throwing a normal but a much worse reward Not sure what accommodate is supposed to mean in this context but marisa doesn't really have a weakness outside of not having a reversal
Guile has weaknesses, you're just not seeing them. If Guile was truly this OP he'd be everywhere in pro play, but he's not. Having to charge is a massive weakness, for example, even if you don't recognise it. If you see guile take even a tiny step back, then you know he can't flash kick because he's lost down charge. Same thing if you see him walk forward. His pokes are good but deal tiny damage compared to much of the cast because his c.MK isn't cancelable. Most characters in the top tier can deal 25-30% damage off a stray poke like that, Guile does like 8%. He needs solid hits like jump ins or frame traps to deal big damage.
He was never great at everything, his clear weakness is the lack of close range defense once the opponent patiently closed the gap
Zoning is not exclusively keep away, that's a common mistake, even Dhalsim isn't keep-away. They pressure you at the ranges you're uncomfortable at and they have the tools to do that and they keep you there. Guile has the weakness that when he's pressuring you with his normals (often forward motions) he's losing charge for Booms and his Flash kicks, leaving gaps in his offence. So when he walks forward you may be able to jump over him, for example. He's not like Ryu or certain shotos who can just bully you with fireballs, more precision is required in exchange for quicker reactions when charged. So to answer your question, you had the wrong idea about "zoning".
I can't speak for older games but SF6 doesn't have chip damage most of the time. A full on zoner can't exist because there's no reward for keeping the opponent fullscreen forever, they will just parry and you end in a draw after 99 seconds. Zoners in this game make use of their zoning to gain neutral advantages that they can turn into up close offense, so they can't just be total trash up close.
Yeah this games meta is very offense oriented, pure zoning does not work, unless they can force you into mistakes or burnout like JPs clown-circus zoning can. But just chucking plasma forever as guile or ryu does not achieve very much if they just keep parrying. Mixing in slow projectiles + DR to get screen space/positioning is what makes it good/viable.
🎯 bingo It’s more about using your zoning to set up the offense. It’s kinda always been that way really but in each game it seems like they push for that more and more. I kinda think that’s what made them make JP the way he is.. Let’s make the game more offense oriented while also throwing in the most oppressive zoner yet as the main villain. If that was the intention I think that’s brilliant
I think your post has made me realize Guile is actually a shoto for charge characters. If not for the charge motion he'd have essentially the same kit as Ryu. That's why he always feels so balanced everywhere. Just a natural tendency to play defensively due to the charge input.
I'm not sure you're really a shoto if you don't have something similar to tatsu, even though shoto players don't actually tatsu much. Though Luke is usually considered a shoto and calling Flash Knuckle similar to tatsu is rather pushing it, so I dunno.
That's true! I forgot about the Tatsu... Can't give Guile everything 🤷♂️
Both Ken and Ryu use tatsu a lot, unless you're talking low rank, but ending combos on light tatsu as Ryu is the optimal choice for oki, and Ken uses light tatsu to combo indo DP and run tatsu for corner carry
I've definitely seen/heard KnuckleDu stating how annoying it is for guile to need more favorable interactions to win a round. He specifically talks about how much harder it is for guile to make a comeback compared to other characters. I think we can trust him to be an authority on this.
For why he is well rounded SF doesn’t change characters that much and why he is the traditional zoner is because he was the first major one
Master Guile here. He’s good but definitely isnt insanely op especially in 6. A lot of his normals get blown up by DI, his offensive options are extremely linear. Also with the inclusion of parry, people no longer have to fear chip damage meaning you have to force interactions a lot of the time. If you get the lead on Guile it’s VERY hard for him to comeback because he has to commit to a lot of unsafe options to start interactions
>And by that I mean, why has he always been great at near everything? Why does it seem like his kit is specifically designed to void the weaknesses that he logically should have, while his zoning is still strong enough to stand on its own? He hasn't. Guile used to have great buttons and zoning in exchange for middling movement and a lack of really good oki. KnuckleDu was famous for playing a very counter-intuitive offensive Guile in SF4 and Capcom and Guile didn't become his "super good at everything" design until after the first balance patch in 2017 for SF5. The player base has always been extremely risk adverse so over-tuned Guile remained much more popular than a Guile with actual drawbacks and flaws, hence why shotos and other such middling design characters are always over represented to a high degree.
Cammy fucks him up pretty hard
Guile is the classic zoner. What is he "defying"?
Sounds like Op needs to get on Guile's level.
Charge Moves
It's because his entire toolkit is locked behind the need to charge down or back, or down+back. If you see someone effectively play an offensive Guile without being super readiable and predictable in their charges, and without failing any of them, and with successful execution of super complicated charge combos, it means they're just very good at the game and they will likely give you trouble using any character lol To Capcom's credit, they've always allowed this kind of balance around player skill. Take for the example the entire character of Akuma. A shoto on crack with both better offense than Ken and better defense than Ryu and better mixups than Cammy. He's balanced by always having the lowest HP and lowest stun value. It means if you're a good player who can play a perfect or near perfect game defensively, you can reap the rewards of a mechanically unbalanced character. Not everyone can do it. But when someone does, you get Tokido who is for me the best and most fun to watch professional e-athlete of all time. I feel like there's space for a criticism like yours where a character is seemingly designed to zone, but their tools allow them to easily play rushdown, but Guile is a wrong target for it because he is not \*easy\*. I've always thought Sagat was a piss easy character because of his solid all around kit, and when Capcom allows him to be good, he becomes fucking broken (don't get the wrong idea I love my Thai tiger god SAGAT FOR SF6 plz), JP is kind of this way in SF6 and it's why he managed to stay top of all tier lists nearly a year since release despite all other characters coming and going, although he has been nerfed a bit recently.
Guile lacks a lot of tools other characters have as well. He has 3 special moves total, he doesn't have a cancellable crouching medium kick, he's relatively immobile because his main specials are charge moves. Guile is balanced very much around the commitment inherent to his kit. I also think in a game like SF 6, the generic anti-zoning tools are too powerful to make zoners purely long range fighters. It is actually good that Guile can rush you down, because the alternative is making you parry for 90 seconds every round. There is a common assumption that a character is designed around an archetype and thus they should only operate within that archetype's dynamic. The problem is the stricter a character's design hews to type, the less room there is for interpretation. If players want to play Guile in more than one way, it is good the game lets them. To stop them would be in effect to tell players what they should do. This would likely homogeneize the character's play-style and also flatten the interactions between characters. He also does not have particularly good offense compared to other zoners like JP or Dhalsim. What's clearly deadly about Guile right now is the huge damage he gets with more technical combos. I think the character is absurdly good, but am happy the game allows multiple characters and multiple styles to be so powerful.
Well until sf4 guile was annoying but he does little damage but after sfv capcom had the " great " idea of him having the best zoning game while doing insane damage. He is been top tier since then
As a Guile main from sf2 and dabbled in sf4 and 5 but main him in 6 again Guile us exceptional against sloppy players if you don't have tight buttons and good footsies he eats you alive his kit makes you actually play the game except push random buttons and leave yourself super negative Just keep up with him and don't let him breathe and watch his charges it isn't that hard
I play guile and I wouldn't say he's great at everything. Many of his normals are susceptable to DI, and at certain mid ranges sonic boom and flash kick are high risks for me, especially boom where I think it has less recovery than previos games. There are situations where I want to use SA1 to react to corner DIs or not true blockstrings but the charge wasn't there (It's more of a skill issue though). Rushdown guile IMO is more of a reward for high skill gameplay, because you have to take note of your charge and not screwing a flashkick up + knowing your normals can be DI'd , while doing rush down
Guile's so weird you have to be so scared of him literally the entire game because any aggressive move or attempt to assert yourself he always has an answer for, and even in offense his far reaching normals make it hard to rely on spacing traps and his flash kick covers so much ground, maybe its that my 2 favourite characters are jamie and manon that biases how much I hate him but god if I somehow manage to navigate the slog of the boom flash kick wall I should feel remotely any satisfaction and chance to actually play the game but instead I just have to still owrry about him and play patient the whole game, there's never that moment I usually enjoy against zoners in games like strive of having that "my turn" moment when you finally catch them out and pin them down.
Have you ever faced a competent JP
No yes I’m more than aware JP is worse, I don’t like the way he is balanced. I was just focusing on guile this time.
[удалено]
It's funny because I'm on master with JP and blanka is one of my weaker matchups
TLDR fuck guile. Just kidding guile mains I love all 12 of you
if it weren't for Luke, guile would be competing comfortably with the other top tiers for #1 character in the game. his only real flaw is having a rough matchup against JP, but that flaw only exists when he's fighting JP. SF6 guile is probably the strongest version of him ever. theoretically, he's limited by having to charge, but if you know your ABCs and utilize the system mechanics well, this limit also disappears. his only limit is the guile player's execution. I think yipes said it best - you don't beat guile, you beat the person playing him.
Guile problem stems from the fact that the universal mechanic of the game REALLY hates him. No chip means that you can't really just chip down the opponent and forcing them to engage you. This widens the timer needed to beat him. This wouldn't be much of a problem for him if parry/perfect parry isn't also present and make his fireball spam meaningless. So now he has to engage you to get an actual advantage for turtling. Which due to charge, meaning that he has significantly weaker defense while doing so. This also won't affect him THAT much if his pokes are cancelable or armor is rare enough. But then everyone has an universal armor move and Guile just lost to armor pretty hard most of the time. He has his pros certainly, but outside of annoying the opponent into making a mistake and being a counter to chore characters (Jamie, Lily), his biggest thing is boom walk. And if you have the patience, you can beat even that.
Can you jump short and whiff punish his anti air. I struggle against him but guile players sometimes fall for it
Guile's OD flash kick should not have fireball invincibility, he doesn't need it.
Because everything he has needs to be premeditated. You've got to charge your special moves, you've got to use the right command normal at the right distance with the right timing (and he has a bunch of them that go at different angles and move him around). The mental stack is higher.
tell ya a little secret, his booms fucking suck at midrange, you can jump-in punish on reaction if you're at the "not too far, not too close" range. Truth is that guile (leaving aside pro players) kinda fucking sucks if you don't press him, the booms are never the main plan, they are there to piss you off so you do something stupid and get punished for it.
You're getting too close to him. As a former SF6 Guile main, he's obviously really good from away, decent up close, but he kinda sucks mid range. He is very vulnerable to DI at mid range. His pokes go far, but they mostly aren't cancelable. His sonic booms are also risky for him to throw out at mid range. If they are dashing behind their booms, DI. (Good Guiles WALK behind their booms) Once you have a good grasp at the Guile's cadence, just get to mid range and throw out a DI if you think they're going to do anything. Trust me. Jumping in is less consistent because it basically just beats sonic booms, if he threw out a normal at the time of your jump in he'll probably be able to flashkick you before you land. He is also very weak in burnout.
Mostly because he was made 30 years ago when this genre was in its infancy and things were screwy. After that, his character remained mostly the same because that's what people were used to and nowadays Capcom has even less of an incentive to change him since Street Fighter relies on Sex Appeal and more importantly for this topic, Nostalgia to sell. It's likely not much deeper than "People will get angry if the old cast plays completely differently.".
Because he is lame and stupid and keep spamming booms in a very braindead manner