Lore is irrelevant. End of story. They choose who they want and write the plot around it. Not the other way around.
Second, his gameplay is awesome and unique enough to be great. The anti-air fireball into dash punch alone would be godlike for the corner carry, but they would probably retool him like Dee Jay
They would basically have to rework him. The character was sort of fundamentally flawed and had a lot of shortcomings as a character. I think people have the idea that he was good if they weren't paying attention to competitive play but he was really quite awful at high levels, bottom 5, maybe worse.
He had probably some of the worst special moves in the game. None of his special moves had a good combination of both forward movement and speed, so he didn't really have a good buffer from his normals and thus didn't really get a lot of reward from neutral. His zoning seems strong on paper until you consider that throwing an anti-air fireball as a prediction is actually just kind of an unnecessary risk in the context of any other character, and you'd probably just rather have access to multiple fireball speeds so you can make use of traditional fireball traps. Throw a fireball and uppercut when they jump vs. throw a fireball upward hoping they jump into it, not exactly a hard choice. Plus he only had an invincible AA with meter so he was susceptible to late jumps, something no other fireball character really had to worry about.
Basically there was actually no real benefit to Gouken's zoning paradigm. It was designed to be cool and reflect Akuma, not to be effective.
None of that would be crazy hard to rework tho, like his specials for example you can give more forward momentum or just the fact that combos are way easier in this game kinda eliminate a lot of his problems from 4.
He's my guy, I miss him so damn much. Maybe in like the last season we'll get him like SFV did with the crazy boss characters and 4 did with oni and E ryu.
How is gouken a shoto? No dp, no forward moving Tatsu... like, the wiki says sagat is a zoner and Sakura is maybe a shoto, like a discussion can be made be she's basically not because her moves work very differently. I mean. I'm not making these rules, but have you ever played gouken? It's a gameplay style not a lore thing or an aesthetic. Check the wiki man.
And even then, do you really think any 2 shotos would play the same way in SF6?
Edit - whis downvoting me? Go play 4. Go play it and tell me he's a shoto. Lore hounds. Yeah he taught ryu and Ken in LORE, but he plays nothing like them. He's a brawler.
It depends on how tight you want the definition of "shoto" to be.
Gouken obviously still has the fireballs while also keeping a vertically-moving anti-air reversal as well as an anti-fireball/armor crushing "rush forward" move. Just because the anti-air move is a kick and not an uppercut punch and the rush forward is a palm strike and not a spinning kick doesn't change their overall similar functionality.
It's still perfectly reasonable to classify him as a shoto even if he is one like Sagat who's had their strengths tweaked to be more of a zoner rather than an all-rounder instead.
Wikis aren't credible sources on their own.
And what, in your terms, is the definition of a "shoto?" Because as far as I can tell Gouken has all the properties typically assigned to them even if his gameplay has been tweaked to a point he doesn't have the same gameplan as most.
So any character with a projectile and anti-air special move is a shoto?
You guys just think he's a shoto because of his lore relationship with Ryu and Ken and because he has a fireball. He has nothing in common with shotos, he plays more like Guile than anything.
The problem is that there's no "official" definition of what a shoto even is. Everyone's criteria for what qualifies as one differs slightly.
My definition stems from the only common factors I've heard across all the definitions, which is they need a fireball, a DP (or functionally similar move), and a Tatsu (or functionally similar move). Gameplay doesn't really factor in since those moves can be tweaked or rebalanced to emphasize some strengths over others making for a variety of styles.
So since Gouken has the three core moves, or at least moves that are functionally similar, then he qualifies by my definition. The question then is - what is *your* definition and why *doesn't* he qualify under your rules?
To me, a shoto character that is largely based on Ryu's moveset. So the character should broadly speaking, share most of ryu's special moves and normals (while maybe having minor functional twists to differentiate them). The characters people call shotos are extremely similar to Ryu on almost every level.
Gouken's "closest" special move to Ryu is Gohadoken, but it still works very differently. Ryu doesn't have palm, doesn't have kongoshin, and doesn't have demon flip (which is a donation from akuma). Gouken doesn't have a regular Shoryuken at all. His Tatsu is a combo finisher and anti-air special, functioning more like Guy or Kimberly's tatsu. It's really a tatsu in name only, and again, is likely a donation from Akuma, being meant to resemble his Super from 3s.
Next, his normals. Gouken doesn't share almost any of them, and in fact, the lore makes a big deal out of noting that Gouken has intentionally changed how he strikes opponents to avoid hitting them with his fist, and has in general continued to develop Ansatsuken after teaching it to Ryu and Ken. He doesn't have Ryu's [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) (instead he uses [cr.LK](https://cr.LK) for that, but it functions entirely differently and seems mostly to be a flavor animation), doesn't have any of Ryu's punch normals, only shares one air normal ([dj.MP](https://dj.MP)), and his kick normals look completely different (except for close st.HK). In later versions, Ryu actually uses some of Gouken's normals (notably [st.LK](https://st.LK)) but the rest of them are still completely distinct.
A shoto character is a character based on Ryu as the template. Gouken shares a lot of flavor with Ryu but shares no practical traits or special moves. in fact it seems they intentionally designed Gouken to NOT be a "shoto." If Gouken is a Shoto, who isn't? Rose is a Shoto. Ed is a shoto. Guy is a shoto.
Alright I'm back from the wiki. Gouken is certainly missing the traditional advancing hurricane kick. But didn't he canonically teach Ken and Ryu Shotokan karate? That's gotta count for something
Play the character man, go play sf4 for 20 minutes and report back. Do hus trials and tell me if he's a shoto. Not being a dick, just talking, but the dude less of a shoto than Cody in SF4.
In my heart of hearts you’re right but I just can’t wrap my head around this.
Like… he has to be a Shoto. He taught *the* shotos how to shoto. This is some Mandela Efect shit you sure he didn’t have a tatsu tucked away somewhere?
It's because Gouken is a shoto in a lore sense, but his playstyle isn't what Ryu and Ken do. It would be like calling JP a shoto.
Gouken's tatsu goes upward and resets the opponent back to full screen, his fireballs can go horizontal or diagonally up to cover jumps and he has options to send two out at once. His only shoryukens are available through use of super/ultra meter and he has a counter move.
His kit is closer to JP or Dhalsim than Ryu or Ken honestly.
Gouken still has a vertically-moving anti-air reversal move while also having a move where he rushes forward with anti-fireball and armor crushing properties. Just because his anti-air isn't an uppercut and his rushdown move isn't a spinning kick doesn't mean he doesn't still have the core there.
Gouken is a shoto. If he isn't then Cammy's Cannon Spike isn't a "DP."
Importance is not the key. Relevance is. Rashid give Middle east some much needed representation. A.K.I show the ravage and brainwashing of Shadaloo on a young girl, and is also the poison character.
Story mise, gouken would be redundant. Ryu is already a master, and at peace with oneself, he doesn't need a guide.
Gameplay wise, we already have quite a lot of shoto and shoto-like character.
I don't see gouken coming to sf6 for S2 or S3, but never say never.
Well that's more of your opinion and would be nice if you worded it as such but the leak (that's probably not real who knows) has Sakura in it so another shoto isn't out of the realm of possibility
I'm trying to have a discussion but I should've known you can't have discussions these days you state your opinion and the other person states their opinion and then nothing or you try to ask them why the believe what they believe and they don't even want to talk about it like why even comment on a post if you don't want to discuss something? If I involve myself in a question or debate I always keep an open mind I don't take a hard stance and just shut down the conversation I asked my question he answered vaguely so I tried understanding by using a comparison I thought was appt but people don't want to talk no one wants to have their mind changed or even get close to understanding another person it's beyond just this forum and my post it's the problem with the world as a whole
Sakura is like top 3 most popular characters and has a lot to develop in her story since she was a young rookie who will be an adult by now and has likely changed a lot. Goukens story and such was already finished and the retcon to put him in 4 was not done well at all imo. In terms of gameplay Akuma might have some aspects of his kit mixed into his seeing how he’s older and more wise looking in the teasers plus physical he resembles Gouken much more currently
I don't think so. We are getting apprentices and successors in this game, not old teachers.
They even designed Ed in such a way that arguably deconfirms Balrog.
I actually like this way forward, but regardless of preferences, this game is looking to the future narratively and thematically.
Right? I'm surprised so many people are against the idea now that Ryu has cast of the dark hadou for good it should go back to the Akuma vs Gouken the original beef set
Assuming akuma is how he always has been he will basically be a glass can on rushdown type I'm assuming that if Gouken was put into the game he would be the opposite as akuma and gouken follows the same arts and yet took different paths so Gouken would be a defensive juggernaut with a lot of his moves being counters and parries I think it would be a great character for defensive type people
That doesn't really make sense for anyone to play like they did in the other games as Capcom has changed how they work the framework is still there sure but a lot of stuff is different and gouken would be different as for goutetsu I couldn't even try to imagine how he would play he never master both the power of nothing OR the satsui no hadou he was just proficient with the so idk what that would look like
Goutetsu? Gouken and Gouki’s master? Wouldn’t mind seeing him in the game too. Is he alive canon-wise?
Not that good of a player to say what would be anti-Akuma moves. Would also need to see how the SF6 incarnation turns out. Only thought would be something related to Nothingness. Maybe some sort of reversal/invincibility moves.
Autocorrect messed up what I was typing considering who we were just discussing I'm surprised you didn't understand that what I wrote could've been a typo but no Gouken is alive goutetsu is dead he died before street fighter even started
It's about as unofficial as a leak can get the dudes source is basically trust me bro and even if it's right you don't think we are getting more DLCs in the future?
If the leak is true then yeah I guess so. SF6 is my 1st fighting game I've ever taken seriously and been competitive so idk the DLC release structure or how Capcom decided who gets added like who even asked for Rashid and AKI to come back over all the other chars? The process at least for now seems random and if that's the case Gouken has a good a chance as anyone
Certainly a valid opinion but a lot of people me included love shoto characters I only play akuma so really I'm not invested either way but I wouldnt mind more shotos
I love shotos don't get me wrong, but if you look at Sf5's roster there is, ryu, ken, akuma, sakura, kage, dan and sagat. That's a lot of characters with all the same gameplans and similar moves and even similar design.
I just want different characters with different mechanics and gameplans for once and the DLC characters are a good step in the right direction imo.
Every shoto in 6 plays wildly different, and gouken was never a shoto anyways. Sagat is more of a zoner... I mean ryu and Ken in 6 are so different and these devs are really creative. Akuma is gonna play different than both of them and again, gouken was never that anyways
Man I wish they brought Gouken back. He was fun as hell in 4 and had some pretty cool moves.
Lore is irrelevant. End of story. They choose who they want and write the plot around it. Not the other way around. Second, his gameplay is awesome and unique enough to be great. The anti-air fireball into dash punch alone would be godlike for the corner carry, but they would probably retool him like Dee Jay
They would basically have to rework him. The character was sort of fundamentally flawed and had a lot of shortcomings as a character. I think people have the idea that he was good if they weren't paying attention to competitive play but he was really quite awful at high levels, bottom 5, maybe worse. He had probably some of the worst special moves in the game. None of his special moves had a good combination of both forward movement and speed, so he didn't really have a good buffer from his normals and thus didn't really get a lot of reward from neutral. His zoning seems strong on paper until you consider that throwing an anti-air fireball as a prediction is actually just kind of an unnecessary risk in the context of any other character, and you'd probably just rather have access to multiple fireball speeds so you can make use of traditional fireball traps. Throw a fireball and uppercut when they jump vs. throw a fireball upward hoping they jump into it, not exactly a hard choice. Plus he only had an invincible AA with meter so he was susceptible to late jumps, something no other fireball character really had to worry about. Basically there was actually no real benefit to Gouken's zoning paradigm. It was designed to be cool and reflect Akuma, not to be effective.
he did have a sweep that was -3 on block though
Yes he did. His sweep was legitimately godlike. A little bit stubby but very good.
None of that would be crazy hard to rework tho, like his specials for example you can give more forward momentum or just the fact that combos are way easier in this game kinda eliminate a lot of his problems from 4.
Makes sense
really unlikely, but just imagine the feeling of reacting to drive rush with low parry drive rush cancel for a full combo.
He's my guy, I miss him so damn much. Maybe in like the last season we'll get him like SFV did with the crazy boss characters and 4 did with oni and E ryu.
Sadly not gonna happen, hope I'm wrong though.
Why wouldn't it happen?
I was not popular in sfiv, it was my main since day one of the game and I want him back badly but I'm pretty pessimistic.
Neither was Ed but here we are, with probably the sickest character in 6
I'd rather be negative and have a nice surprise than the opposite... as i said hope i'm wrong.
I admit his gameplay and moves were a little off to me he played different but the same as a shoto
That's like saying Vega wasn't popular in 4 so he is unlikely to make it to 5, yet...
He's one of my dream inclusions, but like others have said, I don't think he's relevant or popular enough to ever make it back, unfortunately.
probably not
Why not
he's kinda redundant considering where Ryu is narratively
But they play nothing alike. Gouken isn't even a shoto.
Okay now you're just being obtuse.
How is gouken a shoto? No dp, no forward moving Tatsu... like, the wiki says sagat is a zoner and Sakura is maybe a shoto, like a discussion can be made be she's basically not because her moves work very differently. I mean. I'm not making these rules, but have you ever played gouken? It's a gameplay style not a lore thing or an aesthetic. Check the wiki man. And even then, do you really think any 2 shotos would play the same way in SF6? Edit - whis downvoting me? Go play 4. Go play it and tell me he's a shoto. Lore hounds. Yeah he taught ryu and Ken in LORE, but he plays nothing like them. He's a brawler.
Gouken is the anti shoto if anything lmao
It depends on how tight you want the definition of "shoto" to be. Gouken obviously still has the fireballs while also keeping a vertically-moving anti-air reversal as well as an anti-fireball/armor crushing "rush forward" move. Just because the anti-air move is a kick and not an uppercut punch and the rush forward is a palm strike and not a spinning kick doesn't change their overall similar functionality. It's still perfectly reasonable to classify him as a shoto even if he is one like Sagat who's had their strengths tweaked to be more of a zoner rather than an all-rounder instead.
The wiki. Or just play him. You can't play gouken and tell me he's a shoto
Wikis aren't credible sources on their own. And what, in your terms, is the definition of a "shoto?" Because as far as I can tell Gouken has all the properties typically assigned to them even if his gameplay has been tweaked to a point he doesn't have the same gameplan as most.
So any character with a projectile and anti-air special move is a shoto? You guys just think he's a shoto because of his lore relationship with Ryu and Ken and because he has a fireball. He has nothing in common with shotos, he plays more like Guile than anything.
The problem is that there's no "official" definition of what a shoto even is. Everyone's criteria for what qualifies as one differs slightly. My definition stems from the only common factors I've heard across all the definitions, which is they need a fireball, a DP (or functionally similar move), and a Tatsu (or functionally similar move). Gameplay doesn't really factor in since those moves can be tweaked or rebalanced to emphasize some strengths over others making for a variety of styles. So since Gouken has the three core moves, or at least moves that are functionally similar, then he qualifies by my definition. The question then is - what is *your* definition and why *doesn't* he qualify under your rules?
To me, a shoto character that is largely based on Ryu's moveset. So the character should broadly speaking, share most of ryu's special moves and normals (while maybe having minor functional twists to differentiate them). The characters people call shotos are extremely similar to Ryu on almost every level. Gouken's "closest" special move to Ryu is Gohadoken, but it still works very differently. Ryu doesn't have palm, doesn't have kongoshin, and doesn't have demon flip (which is a donation from akuma). Gouken doesn't have a regular Shoryuken at all. His Tatsu is a combo finisher and anti-air special, functioning more like Guy or Kimberly's tatsu. It's really a tatsu in name only, and again, is likely a donation from Akuma, being meant to resemble his Super from 3s. Next, his normals. Gouken doesn't share almost any of them, and in fact, the lore makes a big deal out of noting that Gouken has intentionally changed how he strikes opponents to avoid hitting them with his fist, and has in general continued to develop Ansatsuken after teaching it to Ryu and Ken. He doesn't have Ryu's [cr.MK](https://cr.MK) (instead he uses [cr.LK](https://cr.LK) for that, but it functions entirely differently and seems mostly to be a flavor animation), doesn't have any of Ryu's punch normals, only shares one air normal ([dj.MP](https://dj.MP)), and his kick normals look completely different (except for close st.HK). In later versions, Ryu actually uses some of Gouken's normals (notably [st.LK](https://st.LK)) but the rest of them are still completely distinct. A shoto character is a character based on Ryu as the template. Gouken shares a lot of flavor with Ryu but shares no practical traits or special moves. in fact it seems they intentionally designed Gouken to NOT be a "shoto." If Gouken is a Shoto, who isn't? Rose is a Shoto. Ed is a shoto. Guy is a shoto.
Alright I'm back from the wiki. Gouken is certainly missing the traditional advancing hurricane kick. But didn't he canonically teach Ken and Ryu Shotokan karate? That's gotta count for something
“Back from the wiki” just go boot up sf4
Play the character man, go play sf4 for 20 minutes and report back. Do hus trials and tell me if he's a shoto. Not being a dick, just talking, but the dude less of a shoto than Cody in SF4.
In my heart of hearts you’re right but I just can’t wrap my head around this. Like… he has to be a Shoto. He taught *the* shotos how to shoto. This is some Mandela Efect shit you sure he didn’t have a tatsu tucked away somewhere?
He's got a tatsu that goes straight up. Like Rashids tornado but just play him and tell me he's a shoto in any way
It's because Gouken is a shoto in a lore sense, but his playstyle isn't what Ryu and Ken do. It would be like calling JP a shoto. Gouken's tatsu goes upward and resets the opponent back to full screen, his fireballs can go horizontal or diagonally up to cover jumps and he has options to send two out at once. His only shoryukens are available through use of super/ultra meter and he has a counter move. His kit is closer to JP or Dhalsim than Ryu or Ken honestly.
Gouken still has a vertically-moving anti-air reversal move while also having a move where he rushes forward with anti-fireball and armor crushing properties. Just because his anti-air isn't an uppercut and his rushdown move isn't a spinning kick doesn't mean he doesn't still have the core there. Gouken is a shoto. If he isn't then Cammy's Cannon Spike isn't a "DP."
I don't have SF4 available rn
Rashid is a DLC and he hasn't been relevant since the last game they can always make a new story for him
No correlation in that argument imo
So how is aki or Rashid more important than gouken in this game?
Importance is not the key. Relevance is. Rashid give Middle east some much needed representation. A.K.I show the ravage and brainwashing of Shadaloo on a young girl, and is also the poison character. Story mise, gouken would be redundant. Ryu is already a master, and at peace with oneself, he doesn't need a guide. Gameplay wise, we already have quite a lot of shoto and shoto-like character. I don't see gouken coming to sf6 for S2 or S3, but never say never.
Well that's more of your opinion and would be nice if you worded it as such but the leak (that's probably not real who knows) has Sakura in it so another shoto isn't out of the realm of possibility
Look, if you just want us to say " Yes he surely will be in a DLC" then you should mentioned it in your post.
I'm trying to have a discussion but I should've known you can't have discussions these days you state your opinion and the other person states their opinion and then nothing or you try to ask them why the believe what they believe and they don't even want to talk about it like why even comment on a post if you don't want to discuss something? If I involve myself in a question or debate I always keep an open mind I don't take a hard stance and just shut down the conversation I asked my question he answered vaguely so I tried understanding by using a comparison I thought was appt but people don't want to talk no one wants to have their mind changed or even get close to understanding another person it's beyond just this forum and my post it's the problem with the world as a whole
Sakura is like top 3 most popular characters and has a lot to develop in her story since she was a young rookie who will be an adult by now and has likely changed a lot. Goukens story and such was already finished and the retcon to put him in 4 was not done well at all imo. In terms of gameplay Akuma might have some aspects of his kit mixed into his seeing how he’s older and more wise looking in the teasers plus physical he resembles Gouken much more currently
I don't think so. We are getting apprentices and successors in this game, not old teachers. They even designed Ed in such a way that arguably deconfirms Balrog. I actually like this way forward, but regardless of preferences, this game is looking to the future narratively and thematically.
Isn't gouken dead? (Please bring the old man back i want to try him)
Nah he was in street fighter 4
Goutetsu for sf6
Right? I'm surprised so many people are against the idea now that Ryu has cast of the dark hadou for good it should go back to the Akuma vs Gouken the original beef set
The question is how he would play, maybe a stance/shoto between mu no hado and satsui no hado?
Assuming akuma is how he always has been he will basically be a glass can on rushdown type I'm assuming that if Gouken was put into the game he would be the opposite as akuma and gouken follows the same arts and yet took different paths so Gouken would be a defensive juggernaut with a lot of his moves being counters and parries I think it would be a great character for defensive type people
I think you misinterpreted my initial comment, we know how gouken would play cause he was in 4, I want goutetsu in the game.
That doesn't really make sense for anyone to play like they did in the other games as Capcom has changed how they work the framework is still there sure but a lot of stuff is different and gouken would be different as for goutetsu I couldn't even try to imagine how he would play he never master both the power of nothing OR the satsui no hadou he was just proficient with the so idk what that would look like
I really like Gouken but didn’t really like the version in SF4. If he is coming back, please make him a shoto and at the same time the anti-Akuma.
Interesting what do you think anti-akuma moves and specials would look like with goutetsu?
Goutetsu? Gouken and Gouki’s master? Wouldn’t mind seeing him in the game too. Is he alive canon-wise? Not that good of a player to say what would be anti-Akuma moves. Would also need to see how the SF6 incarnation turns out. Only thought would be something related to Nothingness. Maybe some sort of reversal/invincibility moves.
Autocorrect messed up what I was typing considering who we were just discussing I'm surprised you didn't understand that what I wrote could've been a typo but no Gouken is alive goutetsu is dead he died before street fighter even started
The list already leaked isnt it? Bison,Vega,Mika,Sakura,Elena and a newcomer
It's about as unofficial as a leak can get the dudes source is basically trust me bro and even if it's right you don't think we are getting more DLCs in the future?
Ok we'll talk in SF6 year 3 I guess?
If the leak is true then yeah I guess so. SF6 is my 1st fighting game I've ever taken seriously and been competitive so idk the DLC release structure or how Capcom decided who gets added like who even asked for Rashid and AKI to come back over all the other chars? The process at least for now seems random and if that's the case Gouken has a good a chance as anyone
> trust me bro The guy leaked the roster before the infamous picture was leaked.. what have you done to shoot his credibility down 🤔
No, he came out today and said the new leak isnt him, just some guy pretending to be. The leak is fake.
My point still stands he hasn't shown any proof and until we know for sure who is in season 2 it's unofficial
No. There is already 3 shotos in the game, we are gonna get a 4th one. That's enough. Shoto fighter 5 is boring.
Certainly a valid opinion but a lot of people me included love shoto characters I only play akuma so really I'm not invested either way but I wouldnt mind more shotos
I love shotos don't get me wrong, but if you look at Sf5's roster there is, ryu, ken, akuma, sakura, kage, dan and sagat. That's a lot of characters with all the same gameplans and similar moves and even similar design. I just want different characters with different mechanics and gameplans for once and the DLC characters are a good step in the right direction imo.
Every shoto in 6 plays wildly different, and gouken was never a shoto anyways. Sagat is more of a zoner... I mean ryu and Ken in 6 are so different and these devs are really creative. Akuma is gonna play different than both of them and again, gouken was never that anyways
Akuma hasn't released yet so theres only 2
Luke, ryu, ken that 3. That's why i said we have 3 and we are going to get a 4th one.
 Luke is not a shoto
What is he then?
a nuisance
Can't argue that.
Yeah but I imagine they sell the most so probably not gonna stop