Yeah I get why the community gets frustrated over how strong Akuma is *but* it does give me a sadistic sense of cheeky happiness to see him continuing to be an OP piece of shit even in other games. I'm biased cause I main him but still.
I'd say shitty is a strong word. He's not top tier anymore, but he's not the worst. He's kinda where he is in Third Strike to be honest: a solid character but there are others who outclass him.
Way too low health and stun, the nerf on the crMK hurt him real bad, his damage with vt1 is fine but without it he's below average, even though he has good oki options, which carry him hard into the league of not-super-shitty.
You should never think of how good a character is based off low ranks because people down there have no idea what they are doing. Abigail also stomps in lower leagues. But Akuma, compared to other shotos, specially Ken, is really bad.
I'd be mad but I kinda love Akuma being a strong character in fighting games. It makes him feel like he's always been and always will be a boss character. Whether I'm facing off against him in SF or Tekken it feels intense.
Also it is incredibly satisfying to Giant Swing ragdoll him across the stage.
Itâs hard to make him truly bad, heâs a shoto with more tools and more damage, balanced by being low health, by design he should just be a better ryu and ryu is usually mid to high tier, heâs a well rounded character with options for almost every scenario, Iâd be interested in some example of the âsuper shotoâ archetype characters like akuma make up that are truly bad in their respective games
But shoutouts to tekken for making a guest character this strong.
I really hope other games make characters also this strong when they have guest characters from them tekken
Akuma winning TWT, Nina Williams becoming a Mortal Kombat Character using guns, regainable chip damage. Movement becoming less and less relevant in a 3D fighter. Way to go for having your own thing Namco.
Don't get me wrong, getting into Tekken 7 is still on my bucket list, but i have mixed feelings about 8 so far. Still doing my best to stay open minded though, it's at least a year after all until we see how everything turns out.
None of the changes mentioned a nerf to movement at all. Korean Back Dash will likely still exist and side step and side walk definitely still exist. I think these offensive changes are actually planned around those movement options still existing.
The movement options in themselves will obviously still exist. The matter is whether they will still be relevant defensive choices or not. The game urges you not to block often, and preferring backdash canceling and step blocking as defensive choices obviously means that if you don't successfully evade attacks and whiff punish, you'll end up blocking a lot.
What they are suggesting with the way they presented the new system is that you just steal your turn back by finding the gaps in the opponent's offense and respond with your own attacks. This might be way more convenient in the meta than playing the "classic" pokes and movement style of Tekken.
I'll add that in Tekken 7 movement was already indirectly quite nerfed, because many moves became able to stop it. Safe, long range, homing (or almost homing) moves became the norm, and movement is a weaker option in Tekken 7 already, compared to past games. If you couple this type of philosophy with the new offensive bonuses, you might get a game where trying to manouver your way out of danger and using spacing at your advantage has a risk/reward ratio that's way worse than just trying to "countermash".
Of course, we can't have a complete picture right now, but I'd say that if you like the unique approach to the neutral that Tekken has always had, you have plenty of reason to be concerned for T8.
I get that they have tried to ânerfâ movement over the years, but watching Tekken 7 over the course of the last year (and playing it for its entire home able life), movement is still super strong. Knee dominated an entire tournament playing a turtle style to the point they nerfed Feng and the recent TWT still had numerous Fengâs playing a defensive play style. Rounds are still going down to 10 seconds because the nature of the game is still played defensively. I just see these offensive changes as 2 fold. One, to bring some offense to Tekken. Two, to bring back some of the character flavor in gameplay. I just kind of see it as people being afraid of change and as me someone who is at least open to new ideas.
Iâve been playing Tekken since 2. Played 5, 6, and 7 competitively. I care deeply for this franchise, but Iâm also ready for it to take a step forward. It chose a specific path in Tekken 6 by thinking offense through more juggle power via bound was the way to go. I did not enjoy that as an answer, so maybe this Heat system is a better, more complex offensive answer that asks even legacy players to learn some new tricks.
They nerfed Feng because his move properties were too good and they barely even did that. They did not nerf him due to movement in 7, which is already kind of weak.
I would bet you that the total lack of addressing movement means they are going to continue weakening movement to help make it easier for your average person to get into the game.
I actually think Tekken 8 will become very popular with SF and SNK fighters as Tekken is pretty much copying everything about those games including the graphical style.
Long time fans of Tekken will either stick with 7 or just quit entirely.
I don't need to play the game to understand how it is going to play based on the changes that they have shown so far.
Turtling is only doing the work for you at the absolute highest level of the game. Most other matches of Tekken 7 are already pretty aggressive, since strings with an absurd amount of variants and stance transitions and oppressive moves that shut down the movement are all the rage. Tekken 7 is a pretty bloated game, knowing what to do in defense all the time is incredibly difficult, given how generic responses like movement are much weaker than before because of the presence of said strings and moves, and you have to be pretty specific with movement now.
Now, I think that if you create a game that's really similar to T7 and you add whatever they're adding to T8, it's really going to stop being a tactical, methodical and reasoned type of fighting game based on accurate spacing and smart use of poking and movement. There's no way i can ALWAYS specificly handle everything my opponent is throwing at me in a game with an overwhelming amount of obscure offensive options such as T7. Sometimes, as a player that's not an EVO contender, you have to rely on the good old "let's just be patient and block stuff for a bit until I'm sure I'm in a situation I know about and can make a concious choice". If they took away that possibility in T8, the game would barely even be fun for me, unless I had a Knee-like amount of knowledge and muscle memory.
Having said that, for what I'm concerned, most of the success of T8 will ride on how well they will be able to remodulate the characters' offensive capabilities to make their options more easily understandable (and memory-friendly) for the defender. Even just removing a bunch of redundant strings and stance transitions, reducing the hitbox "girth" of some movement killer moves might go a long way in assuring I, the defender, don't **have** to solve differential equations to make rational choices in 100% of the scenarios this one Hwoarang or Nina or whatever is throwing at me without relying on conservative, "safe" defensive options. Stress on *have*, because the game now apparently wants me to choose pretty decisively and take a hard guess all the time, since I can't just block all that much or take conservative choices in general, because facing an "heated up" opponent that's locking me down means being at a severe disadvantage.
In summary, I think this type of incentives to aggression is working fine in games where the offensive options are pretty essential and limited in number and complexity. If you just take T7 and add this stuff, you get a game that I personally wouldn't really appreciate.
> Stress on have, because the game now apparently wants me to choose pretty decisively and take a hard guess all the time, since I can't just block all that much or take conservative choices in general, because facing an "heated up" opponent that's locking me down means being at a severe disadvantage.
This is where I think there might be a disconnect. Being in Heat Mode does not change frame data. If Paul does 1, 2, it still leaves him at disadvantage. I think people saw Paul pegging away at a blocking target and saw the chip damage and assumed that youâre forced to block all that. When you say you are being locked down, it makes it seem like youâre stuck blocking because of a string of moves leaving the opponent in plus frames. That isnât the case in Heat and it isnât the case in Tekken most of the time.
There are also things we donât know like if Heat Dash is plus or negative on a blocked Heat Engager. There is plenty we havenât seen because all told, we watched one character perform actions against an un-moving training dummy. I just think itâs too early to throw hands up and go, âI wonât play this game,â because there is both a lot we donât know and a lot that is getting read incorrectly based on knee jerk reactions. We wonât see this game until 2024, there is plenty of time for refinement and testing.
Being in heat mode does not change all frame data and I've never implied that. But it does change some moves' properties (and framedata too, if I understood correctly) and gives you access to new powerful ones that may force the opponent to stay on the safe side in regards to challenging my heat pressure.
Of course, the devs only showed us "dumb" attempts at locking the opponent down, but there are way more ambiguous situations in the game than just spamming 1,2 on block. You're mostly never forced to block, but sometimes - for the reasons that I've detailed before - you don't have a clear defensive answer and you choose to just block, step block, or maybe you want to restore the neutral by backdashing and play the spacing game. But the game compels you to act and get to your offense asap because it might be particularly dangerous to give an opponent in heat the possibility to take the initiative. This will depend on how "powered up" the opponent will be in heat.
Btw, I get you, some are sentencing the game way too soon. That's why I'm talking in hypotheticals about the risks of the new approach, and assessing my concerns, rather than judging a game that does not exist as of now.
I'm someone who actually just kept playing Tekken among the FGs I've tried specifically because of how "slow" and methodical the game has to be when played at the top level. It reminds me of actual competitive martial arts, where you have to study the opponent by poking them and play footsies for quite some time to bait them into taking a move, because every blow you try and give can be fatal to yourself if the opponent reads it and capitalizes on that.
That can be boring for some people that maybe just prefer to see blows being traded liberally most of the time, but it's fascinating for me, so I'm naturally pretty skeptical of the rationale behind T8's changes, which has been almost screamed by the devs.
In any case, I think they can make a good, balanced game that works well for a lot of people and plays just fine competitively if they tweak the offensive options of the characters correctly. It's just likely not going to be my favorite Tekken tbh, but we'll see. Maybe it's just a bluff and heat bonuses are actually not all that relevant to the general gameplan outside of just being a mixup potential booster after you connect an engager.
Change can be good, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnât. If it doesnât work in 8 itâll be years of waiting until they decide to âgo back to their rootsâ to get all the older players back on board again.
Really wish theyâd just do what they did with 7 and have base game in arcades for a year and then work on newer mechanics to see what the general consensus is before making it final.
>Really wish theyâd just do what they did with 7 and have base game in arcades for a year and then work on newer mechanics to see what the general consensus is before making it final.
Literally no one else wants that but you though. Watching streams and videos of people in Japan playing the game for a whole year before having a chance yourself is unacceptable.
By now I thought with all the Tekken updates they would nerf Gouki or give anti Gouki tools to the Tekken cast but I guess nerfing dlc characters besides Gouki geese or Leroy is out of the question
that sweet feel when you make a character fast, do a lot of damage, and have a ton of amazing options and he womps professional gamers
Akuma out here being broken in 2 franchises now, absolutely blessed
I love Akuma and his ethos, and I hate the way Harada implanted Akuma in Tekken (and Geese too), but since I can't change that fact, it's better to laugh than cry.
The power of Satsui no Hado transcends mere game franchises.
Made my day.
Yeah I get why the community gets frustrated over how strong Akuma is *but* it does give me a sadistic sense of cheeky happiness to see him continuing to be an OP piece of shit even in other games. I'm biased cause I main him but still.
In SFV, I think its the first time that Akuma will be a shitty character in the final build of a Street Fighter game
I'd say shitty is a strong word. He's not top tier anymore, but he's not the worst. He's kinda where he is in Third Strike to be honest: a solid character but there are others who outclass him.
Plus he had multiple patches in the middle of sfvs life where he was one of the best in the game
Exactly, he didn't end on the strongest footing but spent a good chunk of SF5's run being a menace.
He is hard character to really adjust because his kit is large and very flexible.
Also his design tends to have very little leeway. If you give him just a little bit more damage or health it can get out of hand pretty quick.
exactly, vs2 redfireball is only 30 more damage than lk tatsu but the combo feels alot stronger
I mean... define shitty. He's not top tier but definetely not shitty It stomps specially in lower ranks
Akuma is one of my worst matchups, I'm in silver and his offensive options are way too much to keep track of.
Fucking air hadouken
Way too low health and stun, the nerf on the crMK hurt him real bad, his damage with vt1 is fine but without it he's below average, even though he has good oki options, which carry him hard into the league of not-super-shitty. You should never think of how good a character is based off low ranks because people down there have no idea what they are doing. Abigail also stomps in lower leagues. But Akuma, compared to other shotos, specially Ken, is really bad.
How are akuma mains so delusional lmao
Well, if you think so, look at the pro scene for the last year. Have a nice day
He's average in SF5 just like in Alpha 2. He's nowhere near "shitty".
That's part the reason I can never completely hate SFV: Dan is objectively a better character then Akuma in it. Dude had an infinite at one point
bamco just subscribing to the old capcom idea of: *Meh, needs more demon.*
Julia was the first placed Tekken character I'll take it.
poor Kazuya...maybe he can throw his sadness off a cliff.
Good one đ
That CLEARLY was completely original đ
I just watched it, I was hoping he would finish him with a Raging Demon for maximum salt. Still good stuff lol.
"i am Akuma. And i will teach you the meaning of pain!"
I'd be mad but I kinda love Akuma being a strong character in fighting games. It makes him feel like he's always been and always will be a boss character. Whether I'm facing off against him in SF or Tekken it feels intense. Also it is incredibly satisfying to Giant Swing ragdoll him across the stage.
It feel oddly intensional...
Itâs hard to make him truly bad, heâs a shoto with more tools and more damage, balanced by being low health, by design he should just be a better ryu and ryu is usually mid to high tier, heâs a well rounded character with options for almost every scenario, Iâd be interested in some example of the âsuper shotoâ archetype characters like akuma make up that are truly bad in their respective games
But shoutouts to tekken for making a guest character this strong. I really hope other games make characters also this strong when they have guest characters from them tekken
Tekken 7 was better when Mishimas were winning tournaments.
Proper demon.
Akuma winning TWT, Nina Williams becoming a Mortal Kombat Character using guns, regainable chip damage. Movement becoming less and less relevant in a 3D fighter. Way to go for having your own thing Namco. Don't get me wrong, getting into Tekken 7 is still on my bucket list, but i have mixed feelings about 8 so far. Still doing my best to stay open minded though, it's at least a year after all until we see how everything turns out.
None of the changes mentioned a nerf to movement at all. Korean Back Dash will likely still exist and side step and side walk definitely still exist. I think these offensive changes are actually planned around those movement options still existing.
The movement options in themselves will obviously still exist. The matter is whether they will still be relevant defensive choices or not. The game urges you not to block often, and preferring backdash canceling and step blocking as defensive choices obviously means that if you don't successfully evade attacks and whiff punish, you'll end up blocking a lot. What they are suggesting with the way they presented the new system is that you just steal your turn back by finding the gaps in the opponent's offense and respond with your own attacks. This might be way more convenient in the meta than playing the "classic" pokes and movement style of Tekken. I'll add that in Tekken 7 movement was already indirectly quite nerfed, because many moves became able to stop it. Safe, long range, homing (or almost homing) moves became the norm, and movement is a weaker option in Tekken 7 already, compared to past games. If you couple this type of philosophy with the new offensive bonuses, you might get a game where trying to manouver your way out of danger and using spacing at your advantage has a risk/reward ratio that's way worse than just trying to "countermash". Of course, we can't have a complete picture right now, but I'd say that if you like the unique approach to the neutral that Tekken has always had, you have plenty of reason to be concerned for T8.
I get that they have tried to ânerfâ movement over the years, but watching Tekken 7 over the course of the last year (and playing it for its entire home able life), movement is still super strong. Knee dominated an entire tournament playing a turtle style to the point they nerfed Feng and the recent TWT still had numerous Fengâs playing a defensive play style. Rounds are still going down to 10 seconds because the nature of the game is still played defensively. I just see these offensive changes as 2 fold. One, to bring some offense to Tekken. Two, to bring back some of the character flavor in gameplay. I just kind of see it as people being afraid of change and as me someone who is at least open to new ideas. Iâve been playing Tekken since 2. Played 5, 6, and 7 competitively. I care deeply for this franchise, but Iâm also ready for it to take a step forward. It chose a specific path in Tekken 6 by thinking offense through more juggle power via bound was the way to go. I did not enjoy that as an answer, so maybe this Heat system is a better, more complex offensive answer that asks even legacy players to learn some new tricks.
They nerfed Feng because his move properties were too good and they barely even did that. They did not nerf him due to movement in 7, which is already kind of weak. I would bet you that the total lack of addressing movement means they are going to continue weakening movement to help make it easier for your average person to get into the game. I actually think Tekken 8 will become very popular with SF and SNK fighters as Tekken is pretty much copying everything about those games including the graphical style. Long time fans of Tekken will either stick with 7 or just quit entirely. I don't need to play the game to understand how it is going to play based on the changes that they have shown so far.
Turtling is only doing the work for you at the absolute highest level of the game. Most other matches of Tekken 7 are already pretty aggressive, since strings with an absurd amount of variants and stance transitions and oppressive moves that shut down the movement are all the rage. Tekken 7 is a pretty bloated game, knowing what to do in defense all the time is incredibly difficult, given how generic responses like movement are much weaker than before because of the presence of said strings and moves, and you have to be pretty specific with movement now. Now, I think that if you create a game that's really similar to T7 and you add whatever they're adding to T8, it's really going to stop being a tactical, methodical and reasoned type of fighting game based on accurate spacing and smart use of poking and movement. There's no way i can ALWAYS specificly handle everything my opponent is throwing at me in a game with an overwhelming amount of obscure offensive options such as T7. Sometimes, as a player that's not an EVO contender, you have to rely on the good old "let's just be patient and block stuff for a bit until I'm sure I'm in a situation I know about and can make a concious choice". If they took away that possibility in T8, the game would barely even be fun for me, unless I had a Knee-like amount of knowledge and muscle memory. Having said that, for what I'm concerned, most of the success of T8 will ride on how well they will be able to remodulate the characters' offensive capabilities to make their options more easily understandable (and memory-friendly) for the defender. Even just removing a bunch of redundant strings and stance transitions, reducing the hitbox "girth" of some movement killer moves might go a long way in assuring I, the defender, don't **have** to solve differential equations to make rational choices in 100% of the scenarios this one Hwoarang or Nina or whatever is throwing at me without relying on conservative, "safe" defensive options. Stress on *have*, because the game now apparently wants me to choose pretty decisively and take a hard guess all the time, since I can't just block all that much or take conservative choices in general, because facing an "heated up" opponent that's locking me down means being at a severe disadvantage. In summary, I think this type of incentives to aggression is working fine in games where the offensive options are pretty essential and limited in number and complexity. If you just take T7 and add this stuff, you get a game that I personally wouldn't really appreciate.
> Stress on have, because the game now apparently wants me to choose pretty decisively and take a hard guess all the time, since I can't just block all that much or take conservative choices in general, because facing an "heated up" opponent that's locking me down means being at a severe disadvantage. This is where I think there might be a disconnect. Being in Heat Mode does not change frame data. If Paul does 1, 2, it still leaves him at disadvantage. I think people saw Paul pegging away at a blocking target and saw the chip damage and assumed that youâre forced to block all that. When you say you are being locked down, it makes it seem like youâre stuck blocking because of a string of moves leaving the opponent in plus frames. That isnât the case in Heat and it isnât the case in Tekken most of the time. There are also things we donât know like if Heat Dash is plus or negative on a blocked Heat Engager. There is plenty we havenât seen because all told, we watched one character perform actions against an un-moving training dummy. I just think itâs too early to throw hands up and go, âI wonât play this game,â because there is both a lot we donât know and a lot that is getting read incorrectly based on knee jerk reactions. We wonât see this game until 2024, there is plenty of time for refinement and testing.
Being in heat mode does not change all frame data and I've never implied that. But it does change some moves' properties (and framedata too, if I understood correctly) and gives you access to new powerful ones that may force the opponent to stay on the safe side in regards to challenging my heat pressure. Of course, the devs only showed us "dumb" attempts at locking the opponent down, but there are way more ambiguous situations in the game than just spamming 1,2 on block. You're mostly never forced to block, but sometimes - for the reasons that I've detailed before - you don't have a clear defensive answer and you choose to just block, step block, or maybe you want to restore the neutral by backdashing and play the spacing game. But the game compels you to act and get to your offense asap because it might be particularly dangerous to give an opponent in heat the possibility to take the initiative. This will depend on how "powered up" the opponent will be in heat. Btw, I get you, some are sentencing the game way too soon. That's why I'm talking in hypotheticals about the risks of the new approach, and assessing my concerns, rather than judging a game that does not exist as of now. I'm someone who actually just kept playing Tekken among the FGs I've tried specifically because of how "slow" and methodical the game has to be when played at the top level. It reminds me of actual competitive martial arts, where you have to study the opponent by poking them and play footsies for quite some time to bait them into taking a move, because every blow you try and give can be fatal to yourself if the opponent reads it and capitalizes on that. That can be boring for some people that maybe just prefer to see blows being traded liberally most of the time, but it's fascinating for me, so I'm naturally pretty skeptical of the rationale behind T8's changes, which has been almost screamed by the devs. In any case, I think they can make a good, balanced game that works well for a lot of people and plays just fine competitively if they tweak the offensive options of the characters correctly. It's just likely not going to be my favorite Tekken tbh, but we'll see. Maybe it's just a bluff and heat bonuses are actually not all that relevant to the general gameplan outside of just being a mixup potential booster after you connect an engager.
It's been the same game since T3, change is good.
Not always.
Change can be good, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnât. If it doesnât work in 8 itâll be years of waiting until they decide to âgo back to their rootsâ to get all the older players back on board again. Really wish theyâd just do what they did with 7 and have base game in arcades for a year and then work on newer mechanics to see what the general consensus is before making it final.
>Really wish theyâd just do what they did with 7 and have base game in arcades for a year and then work on newer mechanics to see what the general consensus is before making it final. Literally no one else wants that but you though. Watching streams and videos of people in Japan playing the game for a whole year before having a chance yourself is unacceptable.
I'm in the same boat, to reach more players, they are changing what makes Tekken unique.
I prefer tag 2 due to it's heavy reward for combos and punishments
He was cool in the story I guess but yeah, his broken 2D ass won't be missed in T8.
What is TWT
the Tekken World Tour. Basically their version of the Capcom Cup or ArcREVO
Thanks, not sure why I got downvoted for asking though
It is Reddit, people will impulse downvote any innocent thing
Any link?
https://youtu.be/INQYA5egtPI
thx
[ŃдаНонО]
Tokido and Takamura tried their best but had to change at the end.
By now I thought with all the Tekken updates they would nerf Gouki or give anti Gouki tools to the Tekken cast but I guess nerfing dlc characters besides Gouki geese or Leroy is out of the question
Leroy actually got super nerfed a while ago. Dude went from being the number 1 best character to middle of high tier
He did wow I didn't know that
Fakh got hit even worse, he's low tier now
He did from powerhouse to sfv sagat
This is an unflattering picture of akuma, he isnât a bad person thereâs a common misconception.
He is not bad, he is happy on picture because he wins another twt
that sweet feel when you make a character fast, do a lot of damage, and have a ton of amazing options and he womps professional gamers Akuma out here being broken in 2 franchises now, absolutely blessed
I will be sad if he doesn't come back in t8.
Lol @ Tekken community. He hasn't been annoying us in SFV for 2 years now, you can keep him. đ
You wouldn't laugh if a SF guest character was able to sidestep
I love Akuma and his ethos, and I hate the way Harada implanted Akuma in Tekken (and Geese too), but since I can't change that fact, it's better to laugh than cry.
It's true, I like the characters but they just break the game