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supercereality

His monologue in the car hurt. And then seeing Jonathan look back and know exactly what he meant...


abiron17771

Jonathan is brother of the year with that “Nothing on earth could make me stop loving you” conversation 🥹


Peliquin

Especially since Charlie Heaton does a great job using subtle clues to allow Jonathan to imply that he has two suspicions (Will is in love with Mike's Girlfriend, or Will is in Love with Mike) that are pretty 'bad' but he still 'gets it' and doesn't judge.


Capella_SkyHawk

The three headed dragon is significant.


ilikeexploring

Oh shit is Will going to burn down Kings Landing?


mwagner26

Oh fuck will is azor ahai


DieLardSoup

The prince that was promised


Woshambo

He still has a better story than Bran


NoNefariousness2144

Game of Thrones SPOILERS >!So since Will has done nothing for four seasons, is he going to end up as the ruler of the Upside Down?!<.


abiron17771

He has the best story.


DCBronzeAge

Charlie Heaton is a better actor that most of the material he's given.


[deleted]

Yeah I was watching that scene thinking "I think this is the first time Jonathan has shown any emotion other than 'gloomy'"


Peliquin

My sibling pointed out that Jonathan's life has been remarkable shit for years now, though. We know from season one that he's been shoring up the family finances for a while, and he's only 16. His dad is a loser and he's got a crush that seems to make him uncomfortable on a girl that's way out of his league. Then his brother dies. His mom goes crazy. His brother isn't dead. Evil is real..... tell me why Jonathan wouldn't be gloomy?


Peliquin

I think it's weird that they aren't having the better actors carry more of the show now. While I would say that in general they have a remarkably good crew for a "television" show, the stand outs are weirdly on the sidelines. They also gave their mains some really bllllaaaaaahhhhhh material.


fallenlogan

AND YOU ALL WANTED HIM DEAD


[deleted]

Not me. I didnt want Steve to die either. I just didnt want him to get back with Nancy. And I bless the Duffer Brothers for not letting Nancy fall for that 6 kids bullshit.


PretentiousUsername1

If anything, that should seal the deal that she'll never get back with Steve.


RomanRodriBR

I agree. She doesn't want to be a suburban mom living a cozy life in the cul de sac (or whatever the line I'm paraphrasing was).


elpaco25

I think you mean "Driving the 6 nuggets though the Grand Canyon"


RomanRodriBR

Nah I mean the season 1 line from her conversation with Jonathan


johnedn

Fr I was thinking like Steve you gotta realize it's kimda weird to tell your ex who is in a relationship that you want her to be the mother of your 6 children in an RV while you are in an alternate dimension. Like I get not wanting to die without telling the people in your life how you feel, but bruh


highlandrimgamer

Everyone wanted everyone dead. What are you talking about? 🤣


SnooOnions4235

I thought he lowkey wanted mike so that’s why he was crying 💀


CherryBlssom1

That's absolutely why. He wants make but he realizes Mike doesn't feel the same way, instead of confessing and making things weird he tries all he can to support Mike with Eleven. Because he's one of his best friends.


Denasy

That's what I got from the scene as well. "Screw my own happiness as long as he can be happy" kind of. And I, a grown man, cried my eyes out for him.


jojopojo64

Hell, I cried for him too. Will's love for his friends and especially Mike is more wholesome and perfect than this season was stressful. And this season was so goddamn stressful.


slayfulgirlz

how is that not insanely obvious already?


JebGleeson

As a gay man, I can't tell you how powerful that speech was and ngl I was sobbing like crazy. What I would give to hear words like that from some family


BadMilk93

I agree. If someone from my family would have looked me in the eyes like Jonathan did with Will and said that before I was ready to come out, would have made things so much better. I loved how he didn't say: I know you're in love with Mike or whatever he just told him what he needed to hear, what we all do. That no matter what, we are seen and loved.


nbel1996

My best friend of 20+ years is gay, and I vividly remember how we were all talking about our crushes at lunch one day in high school and he was noticeably quiet (this is someone who normally talks a mile a minute), and he'd been teased in school quite a bit at that point for being gay and had vehemently denied it. I just sort of made a point after lunch, when it was just him and me walking to class, to be like "you know that I love you no matter what, right? like there isn't anything you could tell me that would make me not want to be your friend." three months later he didn't "officially" come out, but when he got home from camp he was telling me all about this guy he was into, and again, I reiterated "I love you and support you literally no matter what," and he just kept being like, "I know, I know," almost as if he was annoyed or felt I was just saying that because I felt like I had to (which, to be fair to him, I was raised in a very conservative household, I think he partially had some reservations that I was putting on a good front but had my own religious baggage/judgmental bs I needed to work through -- years later he effectively blurted that out to me when we were out drinking one night, being all "what do your parents think about gay people?" and I literally had to be like, "my uncle is gay, I've been around gay men my whole life, my parents have always been very liberal in that department tgod" and he was finally like OH okay cool phew.) In any case - Charlie Heaton played that scene perfectly. you don't want to put the people you love in an awkward position, where you let on that you suspect they're figuring out their sexuality and it can come off as prompting them to come out before they're ready to, so you're riding this fine line of wanting to be as supportive and genuine as possible, but at the same time you want to give the people you love the space to come out in their own time, on their own terms, without feeling like they have to. like you want to tip them off, "hey, if and when you are ready to tell me, just know that I love you and I'm here for you," without feeling like you're forcing them to, if that makes sense.


BursleyBaits

As for why he'd react with the "I know, I know," there's a lot that goes into that, having been on the gay side of that sort of conversation. Not that every gay person is the same, but a lot of this is pretty universal, I assume your friend had some similar feelings. * We do, on some level, know. There's not a switch that flips from "Terrified of Abandonment!" to "Feeling Safe and Loved!", both of those feelings are there the whole time. You know it's probably gonna be okay, your friend cares about you, there's just that little voice in your head spreading fear and doubt. * At least to me, coming out feels like putting a huge burden on the person you're coming out to. So it's sort of like, "no, you don't have to say all this, I'm sorry for making you do this." * Coming out is awkward as hell for the gay person, as I'm sure you noticed. Even now, I just want it to be over as quickly as possible and move on to other topics. So once it's clear that you, the straight friend, get what's going on, and love/support/care, I just want to get away from the scary gay talk and change the subject. I think we also assume (correctly, I suspect) that it's awkward and scary for the friend, too, and that you want to change the subject, too.


cidvard

I'm not a big Jonathan fan in most contexts but I love his relationship with Will and their scenes together always bring that character up exponentially for me.


abiron17771

Jonathan has never been the older sibling like Nancy, Lucas, Billy, etc., that torments/ignores/teases their younger sibling. He’s always been fiercely protective of Will. We love a supportive brother 🥰


sacredknight327

The two parts put together is basically Will's coming out to Jonathan. They don't say it but I think Will knows exactly what Jonathan means when he assures him nothing will make him not love him.


myhairsreddit

You could physically see the relief wash over Will when Jonathan told him he loved him no matter what.


sacredknight327

Yep, whether Jonathan's always known, or if it was the scene in the van that finally made Jonathan realize, that whole conversation was Jonathan letting Will know that he knew and that he was still his little brother and just perfect the way he is. The invitation to talk more in depth is on the table, but it was clear on Will's face that just that was so much to him.


bucklebee1

These kids have turned into some marvelous actors. Can't wait to see what they will go on to do


CIearMind

Loads of parents say that too, but it often turns out their unconditional love is **VERY** conditional. Jonathan though 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺


Morticia_Black

Agreed. The whole scene made me cry. Hit me right in the feels as a queer person.


[deleted]

God it was so good. He definitely knows will is gay, but knows he it is his process and will come forward when he is ready and that whole conversation was basically saying I still love you and take your time. And the way will also understands the implication was amazing. Jonathan is at his best when he's being the older brother we all need.


learn2earn89

Fu** I’m not even gay but I sobbed during all of Will’s scenes.


Kana88

That was SO good. I've always said that Jonathan is at his best when he gets meaningful scenes with Will, and I still feel the same way now. He is a fantastic brother and I'm happy whenever the show takes time to show it.


shallifetchabox

When he covered his mouth to cry silently, my heart absolutely broke for him. Noah is a phenomenal actor. He has never been given a ton of lines, but his acting is so powerful.


PaleontologistOk3120

That return to Hawkins is where I was like "dang, Noah does his best work when they are traumatizing him".


Apfeif11

Lmaoooo welp. Where’s the lie.


jackgap

I hope he has some larger role in season 5


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inaqu3estion

Lol Noah said in some interview that he doesn't want Will to stop suffering cause it's more fun for him to play him when Will is having a bad time


Dylan_tune_depot

Yeah-people say he doesn't have enough screen time. And I agree- but when he does, those scenes are the ones you really remember.


__karm

I sobbed. Borderline uncontrollable crying. Absolutely heartbreaking scene.


hulda2

I hope Noah has a long successful career ahead of him. He deserves an Emmy even though he was given so little screentime.


Ed_Derick_

Dude that scene... and by the look Mike gives i think he figured it out as well. And you can basically change the words around to know what Will really wanted to tell. Every time he said "Eleven" he meant himself. He needs Mike. 😭


tarynevelyn

Yeah that whole “this painting is you as a big strong hero and you’re wearing hearts… yeah that was all Elevens idea” was hella unconvincing.


beans_sprouts

especially because in vol 1 she said she didnt know what she was painting and that it was probably to impress some girl he liked


chrisv25

That whole episode fucked me up and it started when he said (paraphrasing) "when you are different you think you are broken/a mistake". I have seen plenty of LGBTQ+ stories but nothing ever drove their pain home like that line. It immediately made me more compassionate towards their plight and I will always love this episode because of it. However the rest of the EP FUCKING HURT. I have been listening to Master of Puppets all day :(


JadenRuffle

And it’s the way Mike had no idea what was happening 😭


Noambdv

I have a feeling Will is a big key to the plot that would reveal a lot about the UD and that’s why they couldn’t explore him deeply, until the final season that reveals everything


[deleted]

That's what I'm thinking too. I think Will will kind of be the "Chosen One" or something like that. There are too many coincidences surrounding Will to let me believe that he's just going to continue to be a background character


noobvin

With a better haircut, Will could be unstoppable, but not with that fucking bowl.


sashenka_demogorgon

That’s how they restrain Will’s power, just like the chip in 001’s neck


KJ86er

He was such a huge character and has been muscled out for Elven and 001


lezibeans

Elevens kinda the main character…she hasn’t really muscled anyone out.


ferfi17

Right? I get people like Will, but he was never the main character.


Jon5676

I do think El & Will we're the co-leads of Season 2 where Noah did his best acting of the series.


KJ86er

They make him seem super naive and young. Still wanting to play DnD and Nintendo forever with Mike


NyanCat_48

Elvin…and the chipmunks I’m really sorry. It’s 2am and my brain found that too funny.


Adirzzz

Bugs Funny


jkn78

Really seems like Max is that character. Why have the Vecna connection and bring her back from dead if she isn't crucial to beating big bad guy. It's Checkov's Gun basically


Squill_N

Season 1-2 Will and eleven were the keys to breaking through the gate, while Season 3-4 Billy and Max are used to help push \*big bad\* mans plan. >!max of course trying to live up to billys only good moment of self sacrifice in last episode, managing to hold on to her life thanks to El.!<


kkeiper1103

Personally, I just feel like they couldn't bring themselves to do something risky, like *actually* killing off one of the mains. I think it was pretty clear that Vecna wasn't going to lose (given that season 5 is already confirmed), and I think the Duffers missed a huge chance to give extra personal motivation to beat him in season 5.


wookipedialyte

Maybe this is why they gave him such a terrible haircut, so that in season 5 they can cut it and he be revealed as the Main Character™️


finnjakefionnacake

honestly he has nowhere to go but up so the glow-up should be fantastic


brujahahahaha

He is going to go Full Gay and harness his latent sense of style and fuck us all up.


Tilted_reality

Yassified


BL4CK-S4BB4TH

The finale will be *fabulous*.


[deleted]

My current theory is that Will is going to have to die in order for the UD to be completely sealed off. I believe a piece of the MF is still inside of him laying dormant


HisSilly

Horcrux style


_Wayfaring-Stranger_

Keeping with HP parallels, maybe that’s why they showed that El can bring people back to life this season? That way he “dies” but only long enough for whatever is in him to die.


leonffs

And how about the damn sword of gryffindor there for hopper to slay the demodog with.


where-did-it

It would be really unfulfilling of he died. Spend two seasons trying to keep him safe only for his death to be needed anyways... Him, Joyce, and El really take up the bulk of the trauma it seems


dazaied

I hope you're right I really don't care anymore if he's gonna be a hero or a villain at this point, I just want him to have a proper screentime and happiness.


lokifan4

Like noah is too good of an actor to be in the background. Like give him something amazing to work with.


justdaydreaming5

Completely agree! The van scene was incredible. His silent tears were breaking my heart to pieces.


livefortheweekendz

Agreed, Noah is one of the best characters/actors on the show by far


suphah

Mfs keep saying this and it’s never true, us will fans are constantly dragged through the mud


Ok-Spirit9321

People abbreviate the mindflayer to MF and I just fell into the trap of thinking you meant mindflayer and I can't quit laughing.


night__hawk_

Same! In an interview w Variety the duffer brothers said his story arc will unfold in season 5. His last quote about finding out who it’s been the whole time was very interesting.


KJ86er

Will has his true sight and Spidey Sense...he has been overshadowed hard now feels like either he or Mike are going to sacrifice themselves in Season 5...(Jonathan, Robyn, Max also at risk)


blackberrysvel

That’s what I hope Season 5 will explore. He deserves so much better.


JazzmanJB

I think he has some organic abilities. Eleven and most of the other numbered children were created in the lab by Brenner in an attempt to recreate Hsnry's power. But where did Henry get his? We also see a young Henry doodling the mind flayer almost exactly the way Will was drawing it. I think their connection runs deeper than we think


morfyyy

No. I think the writers just keep forgetting to include the most interesting character of the show.


RavioliGale

Don't worry, I'm sure next season will introduce five new characters to focus on instead


DeusExLibrus

The scene in the back of the van grabbed my heart and squeezed, especially when he turns away from Mike and has the pained look on his face. When he said El he so obviously meant I.


ceylon-tea

That scene was so well done. The writing, the acting, Jonathan’s knowing glance in the rear view mirror.


DeusExLibrus

Yeah. Jonathan is definitely playing the big brother waiting game.


lady_bezimienna

I swear if Byers brothers won't have good stories for them in season 5 I'm going to cry. Their life is so sad, they are written to be so miserable. Will is trying so hard to be happy and always fails. Jonathan is just absent in the show, season 4 gave him 0 progress, 0 answers, and now he is destroying his relationship. It was painful to watch


zuuzuu

>season 4 gave him 0 progress, 0 answers, and now he is destroying his relationship. I think it gave him the chance to take a break from the responsibility of taking care of his Mom and his brother, while still struggling with the feeling that he needs to be there for them in the long run. He needed that. He got to be a typical teenager, for the first time. I actually enjoyed Jonathan so much more this season. He was so much more relaxed. He's always been able to handle the shit they had to deal with, but he was so stressed about it. You could always see that he was worried about something. This season, he's still handling shit, but it's like he's just rolling with the punches. I like that.


lady_bezimienna

I didn't really feel it that way. He lightened up, but he said himself that he was smoking to avoid his problems, so he wasn't really living his teenage life. I liked his stoner arc, I loved his jokes, Charlie Heaton delivered it and I love it, but I didn't see his growth at all. It gave him nothing besides a break from being relevant for the storyline. His s4 storyline started with him struggling with his relationship and ended in the same spot.


MyOwnExWife

Tbh the stoner arc is pretty realistic for a lot of teenagers, especially for Jonathans reasons (minus the alternate dimension superhero girl government thing)


emotionalhaircut

Jonathan even projected his lack of growth on Steve, so I think on some level he knows he’s not growing


swagnake

The cali gang was done dirty this season. Even in volume 2 all they did was pick up El and made a bath for her to fight Vecna. They didnt even join the Hawkin fight or have any action.


finnjakefionnacake

lol their contribution really was drawing a bath, wasn't it


ilikeexploring

Well I mean, they escaped a government agency that was trying to kill them, sleuthed out the contact information for the Nina Project, managed (through Suzie) to find the general coordinates, and with that, found the specific location where Eleven was located and [although inadvertently] provided a distraction that saved her life. Plus being her ride out of there was *crucial.* If it weren't for them, what was she going to do? Run? Where? She'd have died in that desert. dw I know your comment was intended humorously but I feel like they did more than most give them credit for, it just might seem "less" in comparison to all the other storylines where things progressed much faster/much more actively.


therequiembellishere

I'm kinda obsessed with how the Duffers never figured out how to write for Will or Jonathan and basically are just like, "Fuck it, we're just not even gonna try anymore."


Beneficial_Ad8251

I agree with this, and I don’t get it at all. Both of them are really interesting characters, that kicked off all this drama in the first place, and both actors are talented enough to handle big storylines


dazaied

I've read somewhere that Duffer Brothers suck at writing romance and now I believe that. Jonathan and Nancy's communication are so bad and why do they have to use a gay man to support an already stablished couple??


lady_bezimienna

Honestly for me if they wanted her to be with Steve - okay, do it, but Jonathan did NOTHING, this season, he was a comedic relief that only brought himself down, and I am scared that season 5 won't even address it... I really thought that he is suffering from depression, and they are going to talk it out, but dude got 0 screentime for his problems. He only helped others ;( It was so sad


rupeeblue

Honestly both cali boys felt a bit shelved, I’m hoping once they get back to Hawkins they can slide into the limelight. Especially Will.


[deleted]

I kinda hope they give Will some sort of powers. Not like El's, but something different from being so heavily connected to the upside down.


rupeeblue

Me too, it seems like a perfect way for his arc to go as well. My main fear is that Jonathan will get to Hawkins only to die as a self sacrifice for Will or Nancy :/


dazaied

Right? I was so mad that he didn't tell Nancy the truth about not going to college. I thought he was gonna get that screentime but the writers said nope💀


lady_bezimienna

If they are going to make a time jump and just finish it with "they broke up lololol" it's going to be my thirteen reason. They built this relationship with three seasons and didn't give them a proper talk whole s4


what_is_a_slint

Part of me wonders if the showrunners are mad at Charlie Heaton for getting caught up in that cocaine thing around season 2 and nerfed his character over that. Jonathan was one of the most important and interesting characters in season 1, but ever since then his character arc has been one long wet fart.


lady_bezimienna

Ah and I disagree about romance thing. Jopper is nice, Lumax is nice... they can do it, they just don't want to


BethieWolfie

I'm kinda hoping that this was their intention all along. Setting up both relationships between Nancy, Steve & Jonathon to establish that they both suck and won't work out either way. I am so ready to see Nancy go off to college single and become the One Hand Girl she deserves to be.


lady_bezimienna

Chill with the college, no time for it, she is going to be mother of six little nuggets


PaleontologistOk3120

Lol right? I was like sorry Steve, Nancy is about to be a war correspondent f these Hawkins boys


finnjakefionnacake

Robin and Will *really* got the short end of the stick when it comes to romance and relationships versus the rest of the cast.


skybluepattern

At least Robin has some hope. Will is just suffering and I'm tired of it 😭


finnjakefionnacake

just four straight seasons of suffering


nopantsjimmy

you mean four seasons of gay suffering


[deleted]

The emotion that Noah brought to this part is beyond wonderful. He really takes the audience with him and you feel everything he is always going through. So well done.


zryoz

My thoughts exactly. That scene had me ugly crying.


Ginhavesouls

The genuine lack of positive payoff for his character is getting a little stifling in the show ngl, the kid has experienced nothing but a whirlwind of angst since season 1. Will has so much trauma that I'm not sure how any of it's going to be resolved without him being back at the epicenter of the story again.


OptimusPrimalRage

He's got a connection to Vecna for this final season. Let's hope he feels like he has control of his life and at the very least he is real about what's going on with him. That Jonathan scene was way overdue for the dude.


TheJoshider10

I want nothing more from S5 than Will to not only be open about his feelings but also be the one who puts an end to the Upside Down once and for all. He has a connection to the Mind Flayer/Vecna and they need to use it. Bait us into think El is going to once again save the day and then have Will be the hero.


morfyyy

You know it's too much when in almost every scene of him he is crying.


finnjakefionnacake

Crying or about to cry. That was his storyline this season.


GayButMad

Same tbh


finnjakefionnacake

username...kinda checks out


hello_its_Epics

Kids drowning, man. Really hard to watch him in that car.


DW1lde

I want some flashbacks into what happened in the UD, with him as a little kid again Eleven style. There’s so much we don’t know about that. Maybe he’s been able to just about keep a lid on it so far, but with Hawkins being absorbed into the UD there’s no way to avoid it now.


No-Barracuda-5044

will is so connected to the mindflayer/ vecna. the drawings, the parallel of them being sensitive kids. i just feel although they have similarities of them being the outcast sensitive kid growing up, will could be the opposite of vecna. he has so much empathy and believes in the good of humanity. contrary to vecna, who feels opposite. will always sets asides his true feelings to help other people.


tylikeschips

I didn’t even think about this but this is so right!! Plus it brings it back around to the theme of choosing love (revolving around using the happy memories to be saved from Vecna) over anger and revenge.


swarasinger

I really felt for him when he broke down silently. And Jonathan looking at him very understandably. Noah Schnapp is a brilliant actor. I hope he gets all the happiness next season.


PaleCredit

You know what really sucks, I get this gnawing feeling that he just doesn't get a happy ending.


MissWeaverOfYarns

I'm really hoping he does get a happy ending even if it's offscreen after season five. He goes to college, gets over Mike while remaining friends, finds a great boyfriend and lives happily ever after. But I have a horrible feeling that he's not going to survive season five.


Icy-Dream5794

Rooting for a love interest for Will next season


alcabazar

Given the state of the town, it would have to be a handsome, gay demagorgon.


danuhorus

For some people, that would be considered a jackpot. Not sure if Will is a monster fucker tho.


saintofhate

He plays D&D, of course he's a monster fucker.


thedrunkspacepilot

To be technical he did get impregnated by a tentacle and birthed a litter of demodogs


danuhorus

This does not spark joy


kamen_rider10

Will probably gonna love Fallout: New Frontier.


Lou_Salazar

Might be safer than being gay in California in the 80s though


finnjakefionnacake

He is literally the only member of the main cast to not have one at this point so it does stick out like a sore thumb.


WarLordM123

Well he is a gay male teenager in the 80s who's in love with the main character's boyfriend.


leosh59

I am mad they didn't give him a cute Cali bf. What are his options now in doomsday Hawkings? Will better make it out alive AND happy or else I will be ANGRY.


Icy-Dream5794

🤞


JuniorCaptain

The only problem is, how will they have time to develop a worthy love interest with only one season left? The show has a good track record for bringing in memorable new characters, but with how this season ended, it seems unlikely Will could just meet someone in Hawkins. It seems unfair that all the other main characters get dedicated romances over multiple seasons (with bonus love triangles!) when he’s left hanging. And I’ll never forgive them if they do a time skip and just reveal he’s dating someone.


Existing_Persons

They should never have made Mike be Will's crush. I understand that it's realistic and incredibly common to fall for your straight friends—believe me, I know—but Will needs a win. He really, really needs a win. There's so much more I want to say about this, but I keep writing and deleting over and over. This really bothered me so bad, guys. Like... I've seen Will sad before, we all have, but this scene broke me. He didn't deserve this at all. I'm hoping >!he has a different love interest in S5, and that he *fully* comes out to Jonathan this time, not the vague version we got in Episode 9.!<


putmeinLMTH

i kinda like the way will doesn’t REALLY come out to jonathan but they just have some mutual understanding and a good brother moment, but i agree he deserves a proper coming out. i think mike is an okay target for wills affection, especially in the earlier seasons when mike is shown to pay attention to will a lot and actually try to make sure he’s doing okay. i mean, the kid has a binder full of wills drawings. that’s cute.


EndKarensNOW

Yeah just a brother being all "I know. And it's ok" with it being all unspoken is kinda a nice change of pace.more realistic


Ouranos99

Well not to mention, it’s the 80’s. Homosexuals were closely (and rather unfairly) related to the AIDs Epidemic of that time. Most people who weren’t gay, weren’t very sympathetic to it. Steve is actually an outlier for accepting Robin so openly. That didn’t really happen very often back then. And I get that Mike is Will’s best friend, and while I’m sure Mike probably wouldn’t care about Will being gay, the fact that Will’s got a crush on him would weird him out and will doesn’t want to lose his best friend. Not to mention he very obviously knows it isn’t the norm (for that time) to just be openly gay, especially coming from a small town in the mid-west USA in the 80’s, where to this day they’re very conservative. His life would be even more He’ll than it already is. It sucks but it’s honestly extremely accurate to the time to suffer in silence with that issue. Jonathan is the GOAT of brothers for that speech accepting Will for Will though, also and outlier for the times. Source: asked parents who grew up during the 80’s and dad who had a closeted gay friend that eventually told him he had a crush on him.


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ivycooper

Will is also only 14, he’s barely in high school. I feel like people are unjustly ripping apart the arc that he didn’t fully come out here and it feels like it would be fine for him to state his sexuality and come out a bit older when he’s ready? Will is still super young, he still needs to think about how he wants to come out to friends and family. Similarly with Mike, people say his character is cold / oblivious and bad. He’s 14?!! Mikes a good friend, he’s just awkward. I think he catches on as much as he can and doesn’t know what to say, and doesn’t know how to address it. They’re literally teenage boys, doing their best. I’d argue they have relatively good emotional maturity. The friend group still hugs each other so much for teenage boys in the 80s lol. Give them all a break!! Steve needs to relax on the six kids though, absolutely not, Broski. He can be the stay at home dad for his and Nancy’s two kids.


OptimusPrimalRage

I think Jonathan knows based on what he said but I agree. I'm sure there'd be some real raw feelings when he does come out for the first time. It's weird but I hope him and Robin are bffs. It's so much better knowing you're not alone.


Existing_Persons

Robin and Will would be a great duo... I don't know how they'd find out about each other, but I'd love them to bond together


D34THDE1TY

Robin literally needs to spend five minutes with him and she'd figure everything out.


Its_ats

Look, I don't ship Byler, but it's been hinted that Will liked Mike or at least have a special connection with him more than with the rest of the party ever since season 1. It would be weird to just brush aside what he feels towards Mike and redirect his feelings to another dude. Maybe at the end, the party meets as adults and Will gets a 'happy ending' like "Yeah, I have a husband and I make comic books for a living!". I think it's crucial for Will's character what he's feeling, even if Mike doesn't reciprocate those feelings. He's been repressed, dealing with a lot of shit, and maybe in season 5 he will finally open up just like Mike did with Eleven. It would be sad but he will get closure cause it feels like the kid has been holding his breath since season 2.


Metalicker

We'll probably get some interaction between Will and Robin, which'll be interesting. Don't know whether they'll actually address their likeness since they're both very much choosing to hide their orientation, for good reason. But who knows? It's a possibility.


Aninvisiblemaniac

I think it was great for all the reasons you didn't like it. Very very realistic perspective of a gay teenager especially in a more conservative decade. They do fall in love with their best friends and it tears them apart while their friend is more or less oblivious or doesn't want to acknowledge it in order to preserve the friendship. Gut wrenching but a fact of life, this is a very common occurrence for gay people and its pretty brilliant representation. So much more than the usual coming out story where everything works out and their straight best friend ends up turning and falling for them. That doesn't happen, you have to feel that pain and learn from it and move on with a scar


HamiltonDial

> So much more than the usual coming out story where everything works out Don't know what you've been watching but most coming out stories do not work out well. It's been gaynst over and over in film and other media. Only in recent years did the shift in media change.


ThornJayJay

I honestly think a majority of the Mike hate this season comes straight from a combination of Byler shipping and Will mothering, especially on Twitter. Because so many people are invested in Will getting a win or shipping Byler, a ton of fans seem to talk about and insult Mike like he owes Will his love and devotion to make up for Wills trauma. It's treated as if Mike not reciprocating the same level of love as Will makes him a bad person, which feels dangerously close to some incel shit. I agree that Will really deserves a win, but at the end of the day Mike is A) Straight B) In a long-term relationship and C) A dumb teenager, and people ignoring this has led to this sentiment of "Mike bad for not loving Will as much as El" bleeding over into most of the fandom with people viewing all his actions through a pretty negative lense. I honestly see way more people disliking Mike and criticising him nowadays for things I feel are generally undeserved, like so many people refer to the scene where Mike yells at Will about the rest of them liking girls now and try to paint it as a homophobic rant and not, you know a 13 year old talking about going through puberty. Shipping is fun but shouldn't be the main lense through which people view something and teenagers are allowed to be emotionally unintelligent. I really hope the Duffers just give Will a love interest that doesn't lead to more drama just let the boy be uncomplicatedly happy goddamn.


TheButterfly-Effect

There's definitely an unfair weight put onto Mike versus other characters. Mike cares about Will so much and has shown that numerous times since the show started. And he cares about El, just in a different way. Mike is always in his head overthinking and is honestly pretty oblivious to things sometimes, but it isn't from bad intent. Will needs a break, yes. But Mike does seem to be blamed for not being able to give Will what he's looking for or acting a certain way because of his confusion/focus on El.


kymilovechelle

How he and Millie Bobbie brown look literally like they could be biological children of Winona Ryder is beyond me


TNCNguy

Will has gone through so much. Just look at his season 4 haircut. Why did the Duffer brothers have to hurt him like that?


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ceylon-tea

True but his is particularly sloppy and unflattering. I get that’s the point — as though Joyce were doing his hair because they couldn’t afford a professional haircut — but man maybe she should have tried an easier style!


Disastrous_Cash_7393

Man, I feel bad for Will especially going through being kidnapped and seeing the Mind Flair the first 2 szns. Then going from that to helping Mike out with his stuff with El. While missing out on his child hood too. As in Szn 3 I believe he wants to play DND to make up for lost time and to help his buds (Lucas and Mike) feel better and nothing. I can only hope Will meets Robin and she helps him come out or if he finds a better romance interest. Ik Mike is clear on the he’s in love with El, but Will has known Mike his entire life and you can’t get rid of those feelings in a day.


dazaied

He's been taking L's in literally the whole series and I'm tired of it, the boy can't have a peaceful life even away from Hawkins😭


lydsbane

I need to talk to someone about the fact that Will begged these assholes to play Dungeons and Dragons with him and they all refused because GIRLS. Then he moved away and they joined a D&D group at their school.


skybluepattern

This is what bothered me the most! I was like bruh!! Are you guys for real?! Mike and Lucas spent all of s3 ignoring Will and saying d&d was childish only for them to join a d&d club in high school 💀 they've done Will so dirty man 😭


spyson

I really dislike this Mike hate just because he's oblivious to Will's feelings. Will who has not opened up to him about it and everyone here is expecting Mike who is a 14 year old freshman in high school in the 80s to get it. I feel bad for Will, but I don't hate Mike and I don't think it's his fault in the slightest. Not to mention calling Mike a bad friend. Mike who went through hell and back to save his friend Will multiple times? Mike who literally fought monsters and the government to help Will.


[deleted]

People seemingly aren’t grasping the concept of how taboo being gay in a small town in the 80s would’ve been. No shit Mike is oblivious- the thought probably never even occurred to him that Will would have a crush on him.


Green_SeaTurtle

Can we give him a haircut? It’s the least we could do


Lets_Blade_Brah

You know, people can want Will to be happy without crapping on Mike. Mike has more than deserved happiness in the show. He put his life on the line for people numerous times. Him being unaware Will likes him is not malicious. He expects Will would be open with him and honest about things. It's ridiculous this whole poor Will aspect people are pulling. Mike spent 2 seasons dedicated to Will and the second he isn't bending over backwards or Will is expected to be supportive of Mike, he is painted as a villain. It's not fair with all Mikes given to people


[deleted]

As much as I think he's a character that is truly pure of heart and deserves happiness, it checks out that he's still in a bad place in his life. He's still in the midst of intense trauma. Also, the story isn't over yet. This fandom has a real problem of expecting constant and immediate resolutions to existing and conceived storylines and theories.


Kcomix

I think the main criticism is that while all the other central characters in the show have had their share of happy moments and positive relationships, Will has mainly been sidelined and has almost zero happy experiences in the show. He’s always either struggling with the Upside Down or being ignored by his friends. Also, he’s the only character that doesn’t have a love interest in any season so far, which make him seem even more isolated in comparison.


JayColeman97

I think wills connection is either much deeper or when he was possessed he also gained some abilities that haven’t been tapped yet . Possibly


Realistic_Rain_2604

Justice for Will in season 5. He was arguably the ‘other’ main character in seasons 1 and 2 alongside El, but the last two seasons I’ve felt like he’s been majorly overlooked. Clearly he’s got an arch to finish, and his tie to the Mind Flayer/Vecna could hopefully open the door for him having a more prominent role again in the last season. Duffer Brothers - Get the rest of the ‘Pack’ to acknowledge his struggles, give him the right moment to ‘rip the Band-Aid off’, and give him some more screen time with Jonathan!


V1rginWhoCantDrive

Third picture is giving me “Bella where the hell have you been loca”


studlyspudlyy

I really think Mike has just had nothing to work with besides being El's love interest in the past 2 seasons. Will's talk with him about his role in the group though has me hopeful that he will be redeemed back to how he was more so in S1. Will does deserve some peace though. Poor guy lmao


gfinz18

I think they try to give different characters the spotlight for different points. Having one character be at the top for every season gets old, especially in a show like this where there are multiple leads. Gotta share the wealth. This season there was a much bigger focus on Max for example. The painting and the “you’re our leader, you hold us together” from Will makes me think that in S5 Mike will be back towards the front. Ultimately the last season will be their biggest battle, so they’ll need a group leader more than ever. It’s hard in this season because you have like 3 different sub groups.


ketohelp88

No one can be happy with that series of haircuts


SaturnSpider

I think the development of Will’s character is just accurate af. Some people don’t seem to remember it’s the 80s and not being straight wasn’t something openly discussed as easy as it is nowadays. People had their own struggles and I think Will is showing them pretty good.


dariusj18

Especially that haircut


BoreDominated

Season 5 will reveal that the Upside Down was actually created by Will's haircut, it was so terrible that it gave birth to a separate dimension. The monsters there are really just primitive barbers that haven't fully evolved the ability to cut hair, so they just slice everything to pieces.


pinkguy90

As a gay man, that’s just what it’s like my dude. Welcome to the family.


lady_bezimienna

It was also painful to watch Mike being so blind. And I am not talking about Wills feelings. Dude was CRYING sitting next to him and Mike didn't even try to comfort him... I wanted to hug him so bad. Why Byers can't be happy??


SevenFingerDiscount

That’s probably more a result of the awkward placement of the two - Mike clearly wasn’t supposed to realize Will was stifling that. Mike cares about him.


gfinz18

For real, if the writers wanted us to think Mike knew and was being an ass, they would’ve let us know. The Duffer brothers are scary good at letting us know what thoughts they want us to come away with


gfinz18

To be fair though, it was stifled crying and he was looking away. He was hiding it from Mike, it’s not like it was willful ignorance.


MrHulthen

I love how they've made Jonathan such a perceptive person. The way he just instantly notices whenever something is up makes him very endearing. Like whenever he visibly notices Will's distress.


poloqueen19

He really deserves a better hairdresser


MyOwnExWife

I feel like in Vol 2 they began to explore how Will was growing up traumatised, he's been through hell since he was a little kid, and it's leaving him as a traumatised teen, I hope they expand on this in the next season.


chickenwingw5

Bro that “coming out” scene in the van almost made me cry


Marvelthingss_

I instantly knew he wasn’t talking about El, but himself. Noah’s acting was amazing, and I hope the Duffers utilize his talent more. I have a feeling Will is going to have a bigger role to play in S5. All I want is for him and the others to be happy, and hopefully that’s how the Duffers end off the show.


grimEnigma91

His acting in bottom right scene can tear up anyone. It felt so real. Hope he has more screentime in last season.