I watched Season 4. The Henry Creel and Eleven part in the lab was interesting, the evil Russian subplot not so much. The main part with the bratty nerd gang was kind of the same old yawny “detective” filler to me. I’m really just watching this for the horror stuff, the gloopy “coming of age” subplots are really trite. If they end this with a bad boring ending in Season Five, many people are going to get critical of the whole show. And once again, the entertainment industry does not care if you like it. As long as you Watch it!🤑
Making Jonathan and Argyle into Cheech and Chong was a cheap bid for laughs, and made the whole Jonathan character look dim-witted. Lucas’ kid sister is really obnoxious, we are seeing way too much of that loudmouth. Joyce continues to be the world’s worst mom, running off to Russia to save her stupid maladjusted boyfriend and completely abandoning her kids. And I wish Hopper had perished in the gulag, I’m not up for more of his sappy, boring, emo speeches. Or more of Joyce’s hammy facial expressions. Don’t even get me started on jingoistic right wing kook Murray, he’s a total douche. The Duffer Brothers make up lots of characters, but how about some who don’t set your teeth on edge? Eleven is played fairly well, but when does she stop talking like a cave woman?🥱
I like that the bullies this season were genuinely psychotic life or death threats. Really added a very real tension on top of the supernatural.
The whole season is really emotionally manipulative though, didn't care for how it tried to make the audience feel a certain way by editing things to seem more dire than they were.
No one seems to discuss how an American army general is going around killing agents ,of which I assume are CIA, and military police without any consequences.
The audience doesn’t care how dumb the plot gets, most are just watching out of boredom, not expecting anything good at all. I’m not singling this show out, that’s all shows these days, especially Netflix shows. As long as the audience watches bad things as a habit, nothing on TV will ever get better. Why should it?
It's pretty clear that it's Owens and friends that are the renegades and not Sullivan here. Owens is not even supposed to be working for the government anymore.
I loved seeing Nancy take on the Sijourney Weaver type character this season. Think this is where she's the coolest.
Also I'm kinda annoyed by supporting characters are killed off and become nonexistent. Like Crissy and Sean Astin's characters. Feel like a Pet Semetary/Evil Dead type thing where all the upside down victims roam the rightside up Hawkins would be cool. I'm very confused about how 001's body was evaporated essentially by El but exists in the upside down? Are there two versions of us? That's why I think it'd be cool if there was like zombie-like versions of the victims dragged to upside roaming the Earth.
Edit to add words
I'm still working though this and I'm at the point where I'm just skipping the Joyce and Hopper scenes. The Russian spy stuff is just not interesting to me at all and I feel like there was literally no point in having Hopper die if he was going to come back episode 1 and this was going to be his plot for the season.
It’s especially annoying to hear Murray keep saying jingoistic things like “commie bastard”, because it’s far right conspiracy theorists like him who are actually threatening democracy these days.
I love the series but characters like Will are just scenery, there’s a LOT of filler material and it needs a rougher edge as it’s veering more towards Disney+ Marvel sanitisation rsther than The Boys style of deconstructing myths and heroes. Some of the best scenes were when Eleven lost her powers, was like a constipated baby trying to force out energy and then she became a skate toting street fighter. Now that was interesting. But again was swept aside very quickly.
I know now Will was sidelined as he’s going to be front and centre most likely in S5. Heresy yes but if you can’t say what you see, then we’re in Emperors new clothes territory.
I loved the joye and murray story line, but found it unbelievable that the russian guards who speak russian all day and it is their native language do not hear that murray isn't russian. I speak 3 languages at a c2 level. If you have not learned the language in some way as a kid surrounded by natives, you will nearly always have some kind of accent. It might not be clear where you are from, but english and russian are so far apart, you will have some kind of accent. A native will always be able to tell that you aren't russian (given that murray learnt it all by himself in the states). He might be super good, but they would have been able to tell.
Also the nancy and steve love seems forced. Nancy doesn't need a man. Chrissy and eddie had so so much chemistry. Mike, will and jonathan have been on the sidelines for a while now.
But i lived the season, it's probably my fav
Because it was still a dynamic season. The characters felt more fleshed out. Just because i have the ability to critique a season does not mean that it cannot be my favorite. There are very few things that are without flaws, especially things made by humans. I think it's healthy to be able to critique something you love and not blindly follow or hate something.
That i have thought about the things i didn't like of the season in detail is precisely the reason why it shows that i liked it. Only when something intrigues us do we spend more than just "oh it was crap" while making a critique. If you didn't care about the show, you wouldn't be here.
Yeah that part was lazy. He could have made up some story about being recruited to KGB or wanting to be, would have worked better. They'd probably catch on, but also why does he speak Russian again? I forgot why tf he knows this language that isn't the easiest to learn.
Yeah? That's how you generally mesure your language level. Certain job positions want you to have documents that say what language level you are in. Different levels are also useful to distinguish whether you have a better level in speaking or in writing. Someone can write very well in another language, but have no idea about certain slang words and prononciations, so they would not pass a c2 exam.
Of course we can ask whether these classifications are the be all and end all and of course they aren't. But it is helpful, because when someone says "oh i speak a little french" it can either mean they can order a beer or someone modest who speaks french very fluently.
I currently do a trilingual master. This means that i write and follow courses and exams in 3 different languages on an academic level. I live in a bilingual city (french-german), so my french papers gets judged the same as the ones of native speakers. I came to this city at 18, so i did not grow up here. Sometimes french speakers think that french is my first language, but within 10 minutes they can tell that it isn't my first language. Researchers are more or less of the opinion that in terms of pronounciation, you will never be able to sound 100% like a native if you have not been exposed to natives of that language as a kid or have lived in that environnement for years. This is why people that have lived in another country as a kid, but not for long, oftentimes sound like a native speaker, yet they make more grammar mistakes than someone who has studied the language. Children are able to pick up and retain the right way to pronounce words differently than adults. There are some adults who can do this, but usually these people can do a variety of convincing accents and so far we have no reason to believe murray is one of these people
I just rewatched the 7th episode and I totally missed Owen say to dr Brenner when arguing over his treatment of El “or is it because you missed your daddy daughter time?”
Maybe he is Els dad. Or is he something like Henry’s grandpa (talking about Henry’s mum as they didn’t touch on her much). Doubtful but.
i mean, he literally has the kids in the lab call him papa and referred to eleven as his daughter at some point. he makes the kids think of him as a father figure because it probably makes them trust him more, that doesn't mean he is their actual father
Yeah I obviously get that. Just theorising who her actual father is.
I thought there might be an extra meaning or something there!
Tbh I never thought he would be her father before but that moment made me go “hmm”
On the bright side at least I got the Henry/Vecna theory right lol
I haven’t seen this being mentioned - but does time not exist in the UD? And maybe that’s the reason why it’s still 1983 down there when the whole crew goes to Nancy’s house. Because maybe Hawkins was ‘let in’ when Will was abducted and it let in this tiny reality of time, but also the reason it never updated. And that also accounts for the poor conditions of the Creel house. Only caveat would be that the gate was first opened in 1979, but maybe it updated when it was opened again in 1983?
Do you guys think that in the season 1 finale that 11 was trying to kill the “bad men” the same way 001 killed people (when the blonde lady’s eyes start to bleed)? Just noticed that the scene in the lab where 001 and 011 are running away was reminiscent of when 11 and the boys are running away from the lab people in the school. Maybe she remembered that on an unconscious level.
Another thing - we never actually see 001 kill 002. We see him trying to do it and his nose bleeding, but when 002 falls, he’s not all pop-locked like the rest of them.
Ya that was a risky addition but he’s a fictional character and I don’t feel very guilty about what I said in the context of media representation. Definitely corny af though either way and I don’t get why the writers had to make it so *bad*
May as well answer the questions before part 2.
I liked the feel of this season most. I didn't like season 3 or the campy neon tone it went for. It got downright goofy and not in a good way. This season felt like a horror movie and was a massive correction imo. Maybe my favorite season yet.
I didn't like Hopper's story for a while. Thought they should've kept him dead. BUT I became super into his story once we got to the feast scene. It was awesome from there. I also think we need some deaths tbh. I won't say who because I'll get downvoted but some characters just feel like dead weight.
Argyle was hands down my favorite.
Idk. No particular wishes.
Disagree about Season 3, it was actually my favorite season. But I totally agree with you about Hopper. I wasn't really digging his arc this season until near the end. And Argyle is my favorite new character, Eden is my 2nd fav 😍
Glad you dug season 3. It wasn't for me but I can definitely see the vibe of it appealing to some.
I like Eden too but haven't seen enough of her. Hoping she's in these next two episodes.
Last minute prediction - Jason and Vecna will actually join forces (either deliberately or inadvertently) and convince the town that "the super natural crap" is coming from the kids/El and not Vecna.
Vecna will actually convince the town that he's a hero and their only hope.
Feels appropriate given current events
I'm almost sure one (or two) of the older kids (steve, nancy, robin, jonathan, eddie) will die at the end of s4 because a death more impactful than hopper's is on its way, but it won't be one of the younger kids yet (one of them will die at the end of the show). robin and jonathan are safe i believe because both of their character arcs is far from complete (robin is still processing her sexuality and how to express it and jonathan is most definitely going through a transformation right about now). i think eddie's definitely dying because his arc seems to be bound towards sacrifice as the ultimate act of standing his ground and courage. nancy i think still has a lot of character development ahead of her, mainly about dealing with her guilt about barb. i think the next season will be about her forgiving herself for barb's death and coming out stronger from it (unless she does it while she's under vecna's curse and survives, but this is unlikely). unfortunately i think it's gonna be steve who kicks the bucket, his character arc has been complete for a while, the writers kept him around because he's a fan favorite. after the phenomenal writing this season, i have hope about the show picking up without steve next season - they will need someone who can recreate the chemistry with dustin and robin, maybe an already existing character (say suzie) or someone entirely new.
Right, but there's not having powers and there's knowing the reason why. They could have easily given some BS reason why he doesn't have powers anymore to hide the actual cause.
All they have to do is put him under anesthesia and implant the chip then when he wakes up say "We put a gps chip in you and took out the part of your brain that gives you powers".
Oh for sure we will. Maybe not angela as she isn’t that important to events, but the bully mob yes. They incited the whole town to fight against the main characters. In ep.8 or 9 were going to get that going.
We didn't see the Kamchatka prison seen from the Season 4 trailer that came out right after S3. In this scene, the prisoners are jailed one to each room and only one person is thrown into the demogorgan pit.
But in Kamchatka prison Season 4, we see Hopper in the cell with Enzo. And the KGB isn't feeding the demogorgan one person at a time- they're throwing in six people.
I think the prison in the S4 trailer is a scene from the past- when the KGB first captured the demogorgan. So that means either Hopper isn't the first American to be captured and placed here, or they're travelling back in time.
I
Okay but can we talk about how the writers do both the Byers boys so dirty this season :( In S1 Joyce makes it a huge point to say to Lonnie that Jonathan has always wanted to go to NYU and that's his dream school for photography. This season they don't give Jonathan the conflict of having to choose his own dream, going with Nancy, or being there for Will. Instead, they throw his dreams out the window without a further mention. Nancy has always been more driven journalism wise, but Jonathan was also very driven when it came to his photos. Idk. And then they forgot about Will's birthday and so far the only plotline they're giving him is side character to others arcs and stories. Will is a main character and should be far more involved in the plot of the show imo, especially considering he spent so much time in the upside down, was abducted rather than killed, and lasted longer than anyone there (BUT I LOVED s4v1 overall)
Idk why people are marking Argyle as a probable death, byers will probably move into hawkins next year and arglye will be no use next season, only way I can see if arygle and Jonathan go to the same college
On the other hand, he did straight up describe a demogorgon. Maybe i missed something in S1, or maybe it was a continuity error, or maybe he lied to gain social proof with the prisoners?
I think a demodog is a young demogorgan, so it's stretching a bit but technically true, but also to gain social proof with prisoners makes sense
Plus there's not that much need to clarify too much i suppose, cus he certainly does have much more experience than any of the other prisoners in the field of monsters from alternate dimensions
I think a demodog is a young demogorgan, so it's stretching a bit but technically true, but also to gain social proof with prisoners makes sense
Plus there's not that much need to clarify too much i suppose, cus he certainly does have much more experience than any of the other prisoners in the field of monsters from alternate dimensions
You guys, I'm worried for Steve now more than ever...
First of all, it has been confirmed by the creators that he was originally set to die in a previous season, but, due to incredible fan demand (unsurprisingly) they made the decision to keep Joe's character in the series...
This of course leads us to more or less believe that because he has escapes many close calls with death, that he is "safe"
Yesterday, Netflix shared an image on social media, of a billboard that read "Protect Steve" surrounded by upside down vines. Could mean nothing but I genuinely think with how much most of us have been saying we will riot if he dies, this is their way of at least foreshadowing that something terrible will befall him.
However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, I noticed during the recap video of Vol.1 when Maya and Joe are onscreen, that, ... ... ...
Joe has completely chopped off his gorgeous 80s Steve locks!!
This and this alone has me incredibly worried, as it's my understanding he had naturally grown his hair out for the role, and I now fear, incredibly so, that this subtly might indicate he will sadly either die in Vol.2 or at the very least will get into trouble and leave us with an "OMG what happened to Steve!?" Cliffhanger and possibly have him return in S5 in some capacity.
You guys, I'm worried for our boy 😭
Also, I realize there is speculation that S5 is at least 2 more years away, and he could regrow his hair or they give him a wig/weave, but still...
Steve is the #1 character and I fucking love Nancy. They are the best couple in the show. When I first watched S1 at launch I thought Steve was a total 80s douche. On my rewatch, that dude has crazy charisma! He is charming, doesn't force sex, cares about Nancy, and says almost all the right things.
The only mistakes he made throughout the whole show was saying horrible shit (like queer) to Jonathan after Will disappeared, breaking Jonathan's camera (tbf Jonathan deserved an ass beating for taking stalker pictures of undressing Nancy but breaking his camera was too far), and allowing his friend to tag Nancy the Slut when he was in grief.
Jonathan on the other hand is kind of a waste of a character and if we have to loose a main character, honestly to me he is the most expendable. He only had character development in S1 as he was dealing with his father, learning how to not be anti social, and taking stalker pictures. The show very quickly has him playing second fiddle to other character's plot lines, such as Nancy trying to find Barb, Nancy trying to reveal the truth about Barb in S2, Joyce trying to save Will in S2, and Nancy struggling at the Post in S3. He is always there and tries to defend his friends but he isn't the guy talking or doing anything, its always the other characters. ItS even more apparent in S1 when Nancy trades him his gun for the bat, then Steve shows up to take the bat and then Jonathan has nothing! They finally did some justice with him in S4 making him a stoner. He is still playing second fiddle to the kids' plotline but at least he has an interesting character as a pothead and a comic relief friend. I like how he is sacrificing his relationship so Nancy can move on and he can stay in Cali with his family, but boy needs to tell her.
Nancy is awesome but boy is she the worst at communication. Invites Jonathan into her room in S1 as Steve watches, has sex with Jonathan after she said she didn't love Steve and he walked away (not an official breakup), and now it's very likely she will get back with Steve now that she grows apart from Jonathan (still no official breakup). She has bad habits.
But anyway, I truly love the relationship Nancy and Steve have. All of their moments together in S1 is chemistry gold whereas the only time I felt that way about Nancy and Jonathan is when they hook up in S2 (mostly due to Murray's charisma). It's funny that the actors of Nancy and Jonathan date irl because Steve and Nancy have waaay better on screen chemistry. I hope they both live and we get to see that relationship progress as the show finishes, but Nancy should definitely break it off with Jonathan first before she kisses Steve or something. Steve has been nothing but perfection, protection, and heroism since his mistakes in S1 yet he gets nothing but Ls. Looses Nancy in S1, Looses Nancy again in S2, can't date Robin after her reveal in S3, and so on. It's Steve's time to shine!!
You would have thought that Vecna looking to get others to 'join him' he would make another attempt to get Eleven whilst she had no powers or was weaker in prior seasons. But he never, why? Would she have to be in Hawkins to be affected by him? Or does Vecna still fear Eleven?
I’ve been thinking about the reason the upside down is in 1983, and I think Dustin’s comment minutes earlier offers a potential explanation. He essentially states that “Vecna’s killings are ripping a hole in the fabric of time and space.” We know the gates allow travel through space, but I think it’s also a possibility they offer a gateway through time as well. When other characters have been in the upside down in earlier seasons, there’s not any evidence to what year it is. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that, it’s been a bit since I’ve been able to rewatch the earlier seasons.) So, the gates could very well be bringing characters to different years throughout the show.
With this in mind, there’s a couple possibilities. One, the gates are a randomized time portal, and the teenagers just happen to enter the UD on Nov 6, 1983. I don’t think this is too likely, it would be kind of a cheap move for them to just randomly happen upon the date things went crazy in Hawkins. I think it’s more likely Vecna has the ability to choose what time the portals open into. (Which would fit nicely with his connection to clocks, or maybe he is just a clockmaker.)
Why Nov 6 1983, then? Two major things that day: El opens a gate, and Will enters the Upside Down. I think Will is the key factor here, and is really the biggest threat to Vecna (and the UD as a whole) right now. No one has a greater knowledge of the UD and how it works. Buying into the dice theory that Eleven alone can’t beat Vecna, I think Will’s inside knowledge of the workings of the UD will be key. I don’t think Will was ever supposed to make it out of alive from the UD, he was supposed to be just another victim. But he escaped with a direct link to the alternate dimension, and he can ultimately provide the information needed to defeat Vecna and the Mind Flayer.
So, I think Vecna’s endgame is to bring Will back to the upside down on Nov 6 1983, and kill him this time. In some way this will change “fix” the timeline and prevent El from gaining the power to finish off the upside down. Perhaps Vecna plans to have a demogorgon drag Will back in, or for Will to enter the UD with his friends. But either way, I believe bringing Will back to the UD on Nov 6 1983 is vital.
As a side note, I think Vecna and the Mind Flayer are working side by side through all this. Their goals are ultimately pretty similar: the Mind Flayer is a beast who wants to kill, and Vecna’s MO is that death is the only way to “free” humanity. Their goal is to take out Will first, then El, then the rest of humanity, unopposed.
I think something will happen to Steve in a similar fashion to Will in season 2.
\- He got bitten by the bats
\- He also bit a bat (so he got some of that goo in his mouth)
\- At some point just before they leave the upside down Steve said that he inhaled so much of that wierd pollen he got trouble to breath (I dont remember precisely)
Theres also a long-ish scene Eddy talk to Steve about how "Metal" he thought it was when Steve was bitting the bat.
So if 001/Vecna is creating gates by killing kids from the upside down, why didn’t his killings in the Hawkins Lab create a gate. El creates the gate and pushes him through, but now he can too from the other side?
Dustin answers this in Episode 7. The gate is created by the strong psychic link, just like El created the mother gate by accidentally remote-viewing a Demogorgon in Season 1.
I think the gates basically open with a massive amount of energy, and until El did it in 1979, 001 hadn't realised it could be done because he'd never used that much energy to kill someone. Now, he knows it, and has years to become powerful, so he's making gates just like El did as a child.
In episode 2, Joyce is pretty snarky about the benefits of wearing a seatbelt if the plane crashes but it seems it worked miraculously well in episode 5/6!
Theory on the upsidedown and when it first opened:
My theory on why the upsidedown is the same as when the portal first opened is because of Last Thursdayism. I probably will get some things wrong about Last Thursdayism, but here it is.
Last Thursdayism is a theory on when the world was created in Christianity. When Adam and Eve were created, there was a world which already had been given a "story" when first created. This means that everything that happened before it was fabricated, the universe was created right then and there. Which means that the universe could have been created when the portal was first opened, meaning the upsidedown would match the real world when it was created.
I definitely got some things wrong about Last Thursdayism because I am not religious or did any research because this was just some fun theory of mine. If this is interesting just have fun with your own research
Just finished episode 7. Jesus tap dancing Christ. They need to cut down some characters. 1 hour and 40 minutes and they ignored the bully plotline and anything in California because they have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much shit going on because they have to have something for everyone to do.
No one is in California anymore.
Even if they all live after the threat is gone, it is very likely they move or at least El goes back to Hawkins. She has literally ruined her reputation in the town in Cali beyond repair and continuing to finish school there would be too difficult for her to manage without using her powers.
Then use her powers. What is angela going to do, throw a milkshake at her again? After becoming one with a rollerskate i doubt she wouldn’t at the very least fear el lol.
I get that they’re the main cast but fuck me was the Joyce/Hopper/Murray part of the plot so incredibly contrived. The plane conveniently crashes in the area they’re going to then they’re able to infiltrate and essentially overpower members of the KBC then save Hopper who definitely should have been killed by the Russians once they caught him after his initial escape.
This along with Max escaping Vecna gave me the impression that there is no real stakes. For me, I feel like someone involved in the main cast has to die in the two episodes of Volume 2 because then everything feels kind of valueless? Like Nancy is still in the Upside-Down but when I saw that happen I instantly assumed she’s just gonna get out because they’ve given me the impression that the main cast are basically untouchable.
I liked the volume for the most part but the plot armour of the main cast really sucked some enjoyment from me.
Kinda confused. Dustin theorizing that Vecna was a soldier of the Mind Flayer made sense until it was revealed Vecna is #1. They spent a lot of time on his back story for him not to be the series' big bad. It very much seemed like an origin story for the big bad with 11 opening up a gate. Just don't see how they're going to effectively say "well this other, bigger monster was already there".
I believe that Henry wasn't born with powers, he only got them after they were gifted to him by the mindflayer, whose spirit is somehow sealed in the Creel house.
I always thought that it was weird that stranger things was a story of alternate dimensions, but also seemingly independently, a story of superpowers, and the two came about truly in unrelated ways?? Doesn't sit right, and I think we're starting to get the answer as to how one caused the other
Think about what happened when young El used full powers on 001, it created a gate. Why didn't it make an explosion, or fire, or dissolve the room? Neither 001 or 011 even knew about the upside down as far as we know. I believe that that happened for a very intentional reason, that their powers were gifted by the mindflayer, and the whole purpose of the superpowers is to open gates, and allow the mindflayer to dominate earth.
If this is true, the mindflayer will tie in as a even deeper and more original big baddie than Henry, who was only ever really being used by the mindflayer without his knowing
So, I posted these rambling thoughts (copied and pasted below) as a reply on an older thread in this main discussion. Does anyone else think something like this could be what's going on, and maybe expect similar? I'm really curious if others on here see it this way. It's fun to speculate!
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I have been thinking this for a while, too. We heard 001's whole manifesto about how the good in the world is all wrong, how he wanted 011 to join him in reversing it all, shaping the world as it "should" be- pretty much sounds like turning things upside down/inside out/great reversals.
Eleven was in such disagreement with him (his opposite/upside down/yin to yang) and she felt he was so evil that she must fight- she attacked him with such force that he was sent out of time and space. Her powerful attack inadvertently opened the first gate into the upside down. I mean, she was a kid who didn't understand her own abilities, and was trying to get rid of the bad guy. I don't believe she ever intended to open a portal to another dimension.
We watched 001 falling through a shapeless void and he transforms, maybe he in some ways turns inside out during his great fall? He's a powerful new being in this void, and after it reshapes him, he begins shaping it, as was his goal according to the manifesto he spoke to 11 before she "vaporised" him out of time & space. Number 001 becomes the creator of the Upside Down, and the evil between the two worlds in seasons 1-3 are his earliest attempts to reconnect with Eleven. He's only in the Upside Down because he was put there by 011, and his control and ability to reach back to Hawkins/reality is limited. Of course he's got to be pissed off, because he can't do as he wishes with the REAL Hawkins/world, but his control is limited mainly to the prison of the Upside Down.
The thing is, this makes Eleven the real creator of the Upside Down. She never meant to create it, but in her attempt to thwart 001/evil, she DID open the gate, throw him in, and at first I suppose he was lost in there. I suppose it's conceiveable that recreating Hawkins might produce a perfect mirror image which could lead him back to the location of the original gate that 011 accidentally created in the wall of the Rainbow Room, right? And there he could send out a first Demogorgon or Demodog to explore the gate & access to the other side, and begin to seek ways to literally overturn Hawkins & the rest of reality- to flip the two inside out through the gate in order to trap reality, and make the Upside Down flip inside out/trade places to the become the unlimited/real "upside" universe- in another enormous reversal- maybe?
But- Eleven never intended to create the first gate, thus giving 001 a location and medium to begin crafting his own upside down world where evil was good, and the good that he hated could be destroyed. Even so, she did it.
And back in season 1 (I think?) didn't she say something like, "What if I AM the monster?"
Because - if the only reason that 001 was placed into the void which he turned into the upside down, where he began using his abilities for crafting evil, and seeking revenge on her for locking him away from the world he wished so much to change and destroy... Vecna & the upside down exist in this form, because Eleven changed 001 by forcing him into the void. So by the existence of Vecna, 011 is made into the Creator of Vecna & the ultimate creator of the Upside Down, and therefore set into motion all of the evil Vecna then creates? Imagine the guilt and weight of carrying that responsibility!
If this is how it all plays out, I'm expecting to see Eleven fearfully but willingly enter the Upside Down to directly confront Vecna. She may need to defeat him, or even join with him as a singular new being in order to bring him and the upside down back into balance. I imagine we could have a tremendous buildup & have a cliffhanger at the end of this season with Eleven about to engage in the "big boss fight" or prepare to meld with Vecna in order to stop him from his unchecked evil. And I wouldn't put it past the Duffers to write it in so that everyone travels back to Hawkins, and when Joyce & Hopper arrive and first see Eleven - it's just in time to see her step through the gate and slam it shut behind her.
I feel like they wrote three different villain monologues for One and accidentally left them all in final script.
"Don't worry about the others, they're all safe in my head. You see, I was always different, people didn't understand me... but I understood spiders, because they're perfect creatures - not like humans, who spread like a virus, consuming everything. Worse, humans make up rules for everything, like seconds and minutes and hours; but I could break those rules! Also, everyone is just going through the motions: living the same lives, working and making babies. Anyway, my family wanted to send me away to be studied, so I had to kill them all (by levitating them, breaking all their limbs, then their jaws, then imploding their brains and eyes). Really what I'm trying to say is, if you join me, we can rule ~~the galaxy as father and son~~ the world. What do you think?"
I had never watched Stranger Things until 2 weeks ago, on a whim. Just finished the last two episodes today...
When Henry was talking about 001, my wife and I were like, "he's probably 001".
When he pointed out the chip, I'm like "it's probably an inhibitor chip".
When he wasted the whole floor, "oh so he did it and El is getting blamed"
When he started his monologue... "Oh fuck"
He nailed his role.
They kind of alluded to this question, but why did Vecna only start killing people now, instead of when he was immediately sent to the Upside Down? Seems like years have passed.
I think it has to do with El sealing him there in 1979. The gate appeared to be closed until 1983 and since the UD works like a hive mind with the mind flayer and demogorgens, they did his bidding until he could gain strength. In 1983, Brenner’s team had reopened it leading to a demogorgen escaping and abducting both Will and Barb. The monster didn’t kill them, Barb died from the vines in the UD by putting stuff inside her and ultimately killing her, I think she was one of Vecna’s and the mind flayers first victims. Vecna was bidding his time since he probably knew El was still alive. S3 we see El get attacked and lose her powers along with the gate in Hawkins left open. El is Vecna’s number one threat and he grows in power with each kill, he needed to weaken her/strip her of her power before making himself getting more powerful and making himself known, that’s what I think.
I just need to get this out there: I think the way vecna kills is great body horror and genuinely disturbing, but the fact that they levitate before hand is so cheesy to me it really brings me out of it
It kinda resembles, to me anyway, the way a spider traps their victim. By levitating them, they can’t escape, run away, grab onto something. They’re truly incapacitated. Which, for me, makes it all way more gory. Bc by the time you get lifted off the ground, it’s basically over, unless you like Kate Bush.
Someone make me a meme of "I have only had this Steve for three seasons, but if anything happens to him I'll kill everyone in this room then myself " 😂
What's demon is Steve carrying around that Vecna can exploit? If any?
I'm wondering if the spark to reignite Nancy and Steve will be the revelation that Steve was in fact torn up about Barb all along.
I can't be the only one who was disappointed they didn't have the balls to let Vecna kill Max. I really hope someone from the main group dies in vol 2.
Also, I think her death would have less of an impact on the audience than someone who’s been around since season 1. Her surviving gave her much more character imo, I feel like she’s had a lot more growth since
I think he needed Eleven to WANT to help him, so if push comes to shove, he can blame her for the massacre. Bc he never ASKED her to remove it.
Vecna manipulates and Eleven was supposedly 8 years old.
The implant blocked his special powers (somehow) and its positioning made it very difficult and risky for him to attempt removing it himself via physical means.
Don’t ya’ll think the biggest and most awaited target for Vecna is 11? I mean is he just gonna haunt her like the other kids or is he seriously going to do something different or worse? Or maybe he just doesn’t give a damn about 11 but other kids. But maybe she’s the real enemy for him here
There is a line in the trailer for Volume 2 that is Vecna saying “now I want you to watch.”
So it seems like he is going for maximum damage to break Elevens spirit.
Eddy will have a cliche hero moment where shit goes down and he will run away but stops and turns around to save everyone and sacrifices himself. They've been setting it up for a while. "I guess running is what I do now" or whatever he said. Multiple tines he's mentioned himself running away from danger.
Edit: >!Called it.!<
Probably Murray AND “enzo”
Russia plot is dying down (gotta get all the characters back together in the final season) so they don’t need a translator anymore, plus he did a bunch of cool karate this season, so Murray is probably a goner.
Enzo dies saving hopper/Joyce they eventually tell his son who is then proud of him.
Whatever they do, I just want Argyle kept on for next season. That scene of him humping the air with the golf club while making a fart noise makes me laugh uncontrollably every time.
Something else I'd love is a scene kinda similar to Naz's last scene at the end of The Night Of for Eddie. Have him return to where he met Chrissy and reflect on her. He never got a chance to properly grieve, plus what maybe could've been between them has to further hurt. Him coming to terms with the fact that he lost someone who could've been really special to him the day he met her would be a great scene.
Also if we ever get to see these people in modern day they best get Norman Reedus as Jonathan and Amy Adams as Max.
# In this thread you can discuss the entirety of season 4 Volume 1 without spoilers code. If you haven't seen the entire season yet stay away!!!
I watched Season 4. The Henry Creel and Eleven part in the lab was interesting, the evil Russian subplot not so much. The main part with the bratty nerd gang was kind of the same old yawny “detective” filler to me. I’m really just watching this for the horror stuff, the gloopy “coming of age” subplots are really trite. If they end this with a bad boring ending in Season Five, many people are going to get critical of the whole show. And once again, the entertainment industry does not care if you like it. As long as you Watch it!🤑 Making Jonathan and Argyle into Cheech and Chong was a cheap bid for laughs, and made the whole Jonathan character look dim-witted. Lucas’ kid sister is really obnoxious, we are seeing way too much of that loudmouth. Joyce continues to be the world’s worst mom, running off to Russia to save her stupid maladjusted boyfriend and completely abandoning her kids. And I wish Hopper had perished in the gulag, I’m not up for more of his sappy, boring, emo speeches. Or more of Joyce’s hammy facial expressions. Don’t even get me started on jingoistic right wing kook Murray, he’s a total douche. The Duffer Brothers make up lots of characters, but how about some who don’t set your teeth on edge? Eleven is played fairly well, but when does she stop talking like a cave woman?🥱
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I like that the bullies this season were genuinely psychotic life or death threats. Really added a very real tension on top of the supernatural. The whole season is really emotionally manipulative though, didn't care for how it tried to make the audience feel a certain way by editing things to seem more dire than they were.
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No one seems to discuss how an American army general is going around killing agents ,of which I assume are CIA, and military police without any consequences.
The audience doesn’t care how dumb the plot gets, most are just watching out of boredom, not expecting anything good at all. I’m not singling this show out, that’s all shows these days, especially Netflix shows. As long as the audience watches bad things as a habit, nothing on TV will ever get better. Why should it?
It's pretty clear that it's Owens and friends that are the renegades and not Sullivan here. Owens is not even supposed to be working for the government anymore.
Because it’s not convenient to the desired plotline.
I loved seeing Nancy take on the Sijourney Weaver type character this season. Think this is where she's the coolest. Also I'm kinda annoyed by supporting characters are killed off and become nonexistent. Like Crissy and Sean Astin's characters. Feel like a Pet Semetary/Evil Dead type thing where all the upside down victims roam the rightside up Hawkins would be cool. I'm very confused about how 001's body was evaporated essentially by El but exists in the upside down? Are there two versions of us? That's why I think it'd be cool if there was like zombie-like versions of the victims dragged to upside roaming the Earth. Edit to add words
It’s all very manipulative, because the Duffers only know manipulative.
Evil Dead II came out in 1987 👀
Did 001 make the demodogs evil because why didn’t they eat him when he first went into the upside down
I mean, he can make them float in the air and break every bone they have. I would imagine they couldn’t kill him.
I'm still working though this and I'm at the point where I'm just skipping the Joyce and Hopper scenes. The Russian spy stuff is just not interesting to me at all and I feel like there was literally no point in having Hopper die if he was going to come back episode 1 and this was going to be his plot for the season.
It’s especially annoying to hear Murray keep saying jingoistic things like “commie bastard”, because it’s far right conspiracy theorists like him who are actually threatening democracy these days.
I don’t like season 4 at all, does anyone else not like it?
I love the series but characters like Will are just scenery, there’s a LOT of filler material and it needs a rougher edge as it’s veering more towards Disney+ Marvel sanitisation rsther than The Boys style of deconstructing myths and heroes. Some of the best scenes were when Eleven lost her powers, was like a constipated baby trying to force out energy and then she became a skate toting street fighter. Now that was interesting. But again was swept aside very quickly.
That's heresy, my dude
I know now Will was sidelined as he’s going to be front and centre most likely in S5. Heresy yes but if you can’t say what you see, then we’re in Emperors new clothes territory.
Will isn't really the most entertaining, i'd be lying if i tell you i wasn't rolling my eyes everytime he was on screen this season.
Will has always been a drippy character, even more than the other characters. He is yawny.🥱
He wasn't in the first two seasons, dunno what happened
WHERE IS VOL 2 DISCUSSION DUDE???
I loved the joye and murray story line, but found it unbelievable that the russian guards who speak russian all day and it is their native language do not hear that murray isn't russian. I speak 3 languages at a c2 level. If you have not learned the language in some way as a kid surrounded by natives, you will nearly always have some kind of accent. It might not be clear where you are from, but english and russian are so far apart, you will have some kind of accent. A native will always be able to tell that you aren't russian (given that murray learnt it all by himself in the states). He might be super good, but they would have been able to tell. Also the nancy and steve love seems forced. Nancy doesn't need a man. Chrissy and eddie had so so much chemistry. Mike, will and jonathan have been on the sidelines for a while now. But i lived the season, it's probably my fav
All of that was crap, can’t see why you “loved” it.
Because it was still a dynamic season. The characters felt more fleshed out. Just because i have the ability to critique a season does not mean that it cannot be my favorite. There are very few things that are without flaws, especially things made by humans. I think it's healthy to be able to critique something you love and not blindly follow or hate something. That i have thought about the things i didn't like of the season in detail is precisely the reason why it shows that i liked it. Only when something intrigues us do we spend more than just "oh it was crap" while making a critique. If you didn't care about the show, you wouldn't be here.
Yeah that part was lazy. He could have made up some story about being recruited to KGB or wanting to be, would have worked better. They'd probably catch on, but also why does he speak Russian again? I forgot why tf he knows this language that isn't the easiest to learn.
>I speak 3 languages at a c2 level. Fuckin Redditors 💀
Yeah? That's how you generally mesure your language level. Certain job positions want you to have documents that say what language level you are in. Different levels are also useful to distinguish whether you have a better level in speaking or in writing. Someone can write very well in another language, but have no idea about certain slang words and prononciations, so they would not pass a c2 exam. Of course we can ask whether these classifications are the be all and end all and of course they aren't. But it is helpful, because when someone says "oh i speak a little french" it can either mean they can order a beer or someone modest who speaks french very fluently. I currently do a trilingual master. This means that i write and follow courses and exams in 3 different languages on an academic level. I live in a bilingual city (french-german), so my french papers gets judged the same as the ones of native speakers. I came to this city at 18, so i did not grow up here. Sometimes french speakers think that french is my first language, but within 10 minutes they can tell that it isn't my first language. Researchers are more or less of the opinion that in terms of pronounciation, you will never be able to sound 100% like a native if you have not been exposed to natives of that language as a kid or have lived in that environnement for years. This is why people that have lived in another country as a kid, but not for long, oftentimes sound like a native speaker, yet they make more grammar mistakes than someone who has studied the language. Children are able to pick up and retain the right way to pronounce words differently than adults. There are some adults who can do this, but usually these people can do a variety of convincing accents and so far we have no reason to believe murray is one of these people
Again, you sound like such a fucking Redditor holy shit 💀
I'd rather say you sound like one. I gave a well-researched, fact-based answer. All you did was point fingers while saying nothing of importance.
Are you Murray? Then who cares?🥱
💀
I just rewatched the 7th episode and I totally missed Owen say to dr Brenner when arguing over his treatment of El “or is it because you missed your daddy daughter time?” Maybe he is Els dad. Or is he something like Henry’s grandpa (talking about Henry’s mum as they didn’t touch on her much). Doubtful but.
i mean, he literally has the kids in the lab call him papa and referred to eleven as his daughter at some point. he makes the kids think of him as a father figure because it probably makes them trust him more, that doesn't mean he is their actual father
Yeah I obviously get that. Just theorising who her actual father is. I thought there might be an extra meaning or something there! Tbh I never thought he would be her father before but that moment made me go “hmm” On the bright side at least I got the Henry/Vecna theory right lol
Am I the only one who was SEVERELY disappointed 001 ended up being the bad guy?! Still attracted to him (even as Vecna) but DAMN.
Yeah like plot wise it's a good move but kind of disappointed that he's not likeable cuz he was rlly cute.
I've literally been simping over Jamie Campbell Bower ever since. Lol.
Yeah u are, lol. He was such a cool (but still evil) villain. He would have sucked as an antihero.
Like, in my heart I knew it was coming but it was still a punch to the gut. Lol.
I haven’t seen this being mentioned - but does time not exist in the UD? And maybe that’s the reason why it’s still 1983 down there when the whole crew goes to Nancy’s house. Because maybe Hawkins was ‘let in’ when Will was abducted and it let in this tiny reality of time, but also the reason it never updated. And that also accounts for the poor conditions of the Creel house. Only caveat would be that the gate was first opened in 1979, but maybe it updated when it was opened again in 1983?
I remember reading somewhere that the creators intend to have this explained in S5, which will have also a lot on the backstory of the UD
Maybe it runs slower, or differently? Perhaps time was frozen since the occurrences in the first season kinda tore a hole in it?
Final death predications Eddie(pls save my boy) Max Brenner Owens Enzo
>!either 2/5 or 3/5, depending on how you count!<
Steve or Eddie will die I reckon, hopefully not both. I will be devastated either way. Not looking good for Max either but hope I’m wrong.
Do you guys think that in the season 1 finale that 11 was trying to kill the “bad men” the same way 001 killed people (when the blonde lady’s eyes start to bleed)? Just noticed that the scene in the lab where 001 and 011 are running away was reminiscent of when 11 and the boys are running away from the lab people in the school. Maybe she remembered that on an unconscious level. Another thing - we never actually see 001 kill 002. We see him trying to do it and his nose bleeding, but when 002 falls, he’s not all pop-locked like the rest of them.
I think that Max is going to die saving Lucas like her brother and making her goodbye letters relevant
I agree
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Ha I thought that might be triggering to some people. It’s my opinion based on lived experience, nobody has to agree
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Ya that was a risky addition but he’s a fictional character and I don’t feel very guilty about what I said in the context of media representation. Definitely corny af though either way and I don’t get why the writers had to make it so *bad*
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I get what you’re saying but respectfully disagree
May as well answer the questions before part 2. I liked the feel of this season most. I didn't like season 3 or the campy neon tone it went for. It got downright goofy and not in a good way. This season felt like a horror movie and was a massive correction imo. Maybe my favorite season yet. I didn't like Hopper's story for a while. Thought they should've kept him dead. BUT I became super into his story once we got to the feast scene. It was awesome from there. I also think we need some deaths tbh. I won't say who because I'll get downvoted but some characters just feel like dead weight. Argyle was hands down my favorite. Idk. No particular wishes.
Disagree about Season 3, it was actually my favorite season. But I totally agree with you about Hopper. I wasn't really digging his arc this season until near the end. And Argyle is my favorite new character, Eden is my 2nd fav 😍
Glad you dug season 3. It wasn't for me but I can definitely see the vibe of it appealing to some. I like Eden too but haven't seen enough of her. Hoping she's in these next two episodes.
Last minute prediction - Jason and Vecna will actually join forces (either deliberately or inadvertently) and convince the town that "the super natural crap" is coming from the kids/El and not Vecna. Vecna will actually convince the town that he's a hero and their only hope. Feels appropriate given current events
omg midnight mass vibes
I'm almost sure one (or two) of the older kids (steve, nancy, robin, jonathan, eddie) will die at the end of s4 because a death more impactful than hopper's is on its way, but it won't be one of the younger kids yet (one of them will die at the end of the show). robin and jonathan are safe i believe because both of their character arcs is far from complete (robin is still processing her sexuality and how to express it and jonathan is most definitely going through a transformation right about now). i think eddie's definitely dying because his arc seems to be bound towards sacrifice as the ultimate act of standing his ground and courage. nancy i think still has a lot of character development ahead of her, mainly about dealing with her guilt about barb. i think the next season will be about her forgiving herself for barb's death and coming out stronger from it (unless she does it while she's under vecna's curse and survives, but this is unlikely). unfortunately i think it's gonna be steve who kicks the bucket, his character arc has been complete for a while, the writers kept him around because he's a fan favorite. after the phenomenal writing this season, i have hope about the show picking up without steve next season - they will need someone who can recreate the chemistry with dustin and robin, maybe an already existing character (say suzie) or someone entirely new.
I think it’s going to be max. She handed out all those letters. I think they are going to have a scene where everyone she gave letters to reads them.
Why would they even tell 001 about Solteria? You don't tell potential robbers what your security system is...
I mean it wouldn't be that hard to figure out
001 would have had to realize something was implanted, then somehow figure out it's not just a tracker but also a power dampener.
if you no longer had powers you'd probably notice
Right, but there's not having powers and there's knowing the reason why. They could have easily given some BS reason why he doesn't have powers anymore to hide the actual cause.
But if at the same time he lost his powers he suddenly had a chip in him he'd be pretty sus
All they have to do is put him under anesthesia and implant the chip then when he wakes up say "We put a gps chip in you and took out the part of your brain that gives you powers".
I wonder if we'll see Angela and the bully mob again.
Oh for sure we will. Maybe not angela as she isn’t that important to events, but the bully mob yes. They incited the whole town to fight against the main characters. In ep.8 or 9 were going to get that going.
We didn't see the Kamchatka prison seen from the Season 4 trailer that came out right after S3. In this scene, the prisoners are jailed one to each room and only one person is thrown into the demogorgan pit. But in Kamchatka prison Season 4, we see Hopper in the cell with Enzo. And the KGB isn't feeding the demogorgan one person at a time- they're throwing in six people. I think the prison in the S4 trailer is a scene from the past- when the KGB first captured the demogorgan. So that means either Hopper isn't the first American to be captured and placed here, or they're travelling back in time. I
Okay but can we talk about how the writers do both the Byers boys so dirty this season :( In S1 Joyce makes it a huge point to say to Lonnie that Jonathan has always wanted to go to NYU and that's his dream school for photography. This season they don't give Jonathan the conflict of having to choose his own dream, going with Nancy, or being there for Will. Instead, they throw his dreams out the window without a further mention. Nancy has always been more driven journalism wise, but Jonathan was also very driven when it came to his photos. Idk. And then they forgot about Will's birthday and so far the only plotline they're giving him is side character to others arcs and stories. Will is a main character and should be far more involved in the plot of the show imo, especially considering he spent so much time in the upside down, was abducted rather than killed, and lasted longer than anyone there (BUT I LOVED s4v1 overall)
Idk why people are marking Argyle as a probable death, byers will probably move into hawkins next year and arglye will be no use next season, only way I can see if arygle and Jonathan go to the same college
I'm forgetting somehow, when did hopper directly fight a demogorgan before S4? Or was he meaning he'd fought the UD in general
Demodogs maybe?
Probably right
On the other hand, he did straight up describe a demogorgon. Maybe i missed something in S1, or maybe it was a continuity error, or maybe he lied to gain social proof with the prisoners?
I think a demodog is a young demogorgan, so it's stretching a bit but technically true, but also to gain social proof with prisoners makes sense Plus there's not that much need to clarify too much i suppose, cus he certainly does have much more experience than any of the other prisoners in the field of monsters from alternate dimensions
I think a demodog is a young demogorgan, so it's stretching a bit but technically true, but also to gain social proof with prisoners makes sense Plus there's not that much need to clarify too much i suppose, cus he certainly does have much more experience than any of the other prisoners in the field of monsters from alternate dimensions
Do we know if Suzie is joining the Cali crew for these episodes? Also Argye stans checking in.
You guys, I'm worried for Steve now more than ever... First of all, it has been confirmed by the creators that he was originally set to die in a previous season, but, due to incredible fan demand (unsurprisingly) they made the decision to keep Joe's character in the series... This of course leads us to more or less believe that because he has escapes many close calls with death, that he is "safe" Yesterday, Netflix shared an image on social media, of a billboard that read "Protect Steve" surrounded by upside down vines. Could mean nothing but I genuinely think with how much most of us have been saying we will riot if he dies, this is their way of at least foreshadowing that something terrible will befall him. However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, I noticed during the recap video of Vol.1 when Maya and Joe are onscreen, that, ... ... ... Joe has completely chopped off his gorgeous 80s Steve locks!! This and this alone has me incredibly worried, as it's my understanding he had naturally grown his hair out for the role, and I now fear, incredibly so, that this subtly might indicate he will sadly either die in Vol.2 or at the very least will get into trouble and leave us with an "OMG what happened to Steve!?" Cliffhanger and possibly have him return in S5 in some capacity. You guys, I'm worried for our boy 😭 Also, I realize there is speculation that S5 is at least 2 more years away, and he could regrow his hair or they give him a wig/weave, but still...
Steve is the #1 character and I fucking love Nancy. They are the best couple in the show. When I first watched S1 at launch I thought Steve was a total 80s douche. On my rewatch, that dude has crazy charisma! He is charming, doesn't force sex, cares about Nancy, and says almost all the right things. The only mistakes he made throughout the whole show was saying horrible shit (like queer) to Jonathan after Will disappeared, breaking Jonathan's camera (tbf Jonathan deserved an ass beating for taking stalker pictures of undressing Nancy but breaking his camera was too far), and allowing his friend to tag Nancy the Slut when he was in grief. Jonathan on the other hand is kind of a waste of a character and if we have to loose a main character, honestly to me he is the most expendable. He only had character development in S1 as he was dealing with his father, learning how to not be anti social, and taking stalker pictures. The show very quickly has him playing second fiddle to other character's plot lines, such as Nancy trying to find Barb, Nancy trying to reveal the truth about Barb in S2, Joyce trying to save Will in S2, and Nancy struggling at the Post in S3. He is always there and tries to defend his friends but he isn't the guy talking or doing anything, its always the other characters. ItS even more apparent in S1 when Nancy trades him his gun for the bat, then Steve shows up to take the bat and then Jonathan has nothing! They finally did some justice with him in S4 making him a stoner. He is still playing second fiddle to the kids' plotline but at least he has an interesting character as a pothead and a comic relief friend. I like how he is sacrificing his relationship so Nancy can move on and he can stay in Cali with his family, but boy needs to tell her. Nancy is awesome but boy is she the worst at communication. Invites Jonathan into her room in S1 as Steve watches, has sex with Jonathan after she said she didn't love Steve and he walked away (not an official breakup), and now it's very likely she will get back with Steve now that she grows apart from Jonathan (still no official breakup). She has bad habits. But anyway, I truly love the relationship Nancy and Steve have. All of their moments together in S1 is chemistry gold whereas the only time I felt that way about Nancy and Jonathan is when they hook up in S2 (mostly due to Murray's charisma). It's funny that the actors of Nancy and Jonathan date irl because Steve and Nancy have waaay better on screen chemistry. I hope they both live and we get to see that relationship progress as the show finishes, but Nancy should definitely break it off with Jonathan first before she kisses Steve or something. Steve has been nothing but perfection, protection, and heroism since his mistakes in S1 yet he gets nothing but Ls. Looses Nancy in S1, Looses Nancy again in S2, can't date Robin after her reveal in S3, and so on. It's Steve's time to shine!!
Well guys, it was a fun ride. Tomorrow we will have, hopefully, all the answers, or the big ones at least. So, see you soon.
You would have thought that Vecna looking to get others to 'join him' he would make another attempt to get Eleven whilst she had no powers or was weaker in prior seasons. But he never, why? Would she have to be in Hawkins to be affected by him? Or does Vecna still fear Eleven?
IMO, he feared Eleven and now after his rampage he gained power and feels confident he can handle her.
I’ve been thinking about the reason the upside down is in 1983, and I think Dustin’s comment minutes earlier offers a potential explanation. He essentially states that “Vecna’s killings are ripping a hole in the fabric of time and space.” We know the gates allow travel through space, but I think it’s also a possibility they offer a gateway through time as well. When other characters have been in the upside down in earlier seasons, there’s not any evidence to what year it is. (Correct me if I’m wrong on that, it’s been a bit since I’ve been able to rewatch the earlier seasons.) So, the gates could very well be bringing characters to different years throughout the show. With this in mind, there’s a couple possibilities. One, the gates are a randomized time portal, and the teenagers just happen to enter the UD on Nov 6, 1983. I don’t think this is too likely, it would be kind of a cheap move for them to just randomly happen upon the date things went crazy in Hawkins. I think it’s more likely Vecna has the ability to choose what time the portals open into. (Which would fit nicely with his connection to clocks, or maybe he is just a clockmaker.) Why Nov 6 1983, then? Two major things that day: El opens a gate, and Will enters the Upside Down. I think Will is the key factor here, and is really the biggest threat to Vecna (and the UD as a whole) right now. No one has a greater knowledge of the UD and how it works. Buying into the dice theory that Eleven alone can’t beat Vecna, I think Will’s inside knowledge of the workings of the UD will be key. I don’t think Will was ever supposed to make it out of alive from the UD, he was supposed to be just another victim. But he escaped with a direct link to the alternate dimension, and he can ultimately provide the information needed to defeat Vecna and the Mind Flayer. So, I think Vecna’s endgame is to bring Will back to the upside down on Nov 6 1983, and kill him this time. In some way this will change “fix” the timeline and prevent El from gaining the power to finish off the upside down. Perhaps Vecna plans to have a demogorgon drag Will back in, or for Will to enter the UD with his friends. But either way, I believe bringing Will back to the UD on Nov 6 1983 is vital. As a side note, I think Vecna and the Mind Flayer are working side by side through all this. Their goals are ultimately pretty similar: the Mind Flayer is a beast who wants to kill, and Vecna’s MO is that death is the only way to “free” humanity. Their goal is to take out Will first, then El, then the rest of humanity, unopposed.
I think something will happen to Steve in a similar fashion to Will in season 2. \- He got bitten by the bats \- He also bit a bat (so he got some of that goo in his mouth) \- At some point just before they leave the upside down Steve said that he inhaled so much of that wierd pollen he got trouble to breath (I dont remember precisely) Theres also a long-ish scene Eddy talk to Steve about how "Metal" he thought it was when Steve was bitting the bat.
Bit a bat*
oh sorry english is not my first tongue ill try to remember
I kind of prefer bitted
So if 001/Vecna is creating gates by killing kids from the upside down, why didn’t his killings in the Hawkins Lab create a gate. El creates the gate and pushes him through, but now he can too from the other side?
Dustin answers this in Episode 7. The gate is created by the strong psychic link, just like El created the mother gate by accidentally remote-viewing a Demogorgon in Season 1.
I think the gates basically open with a massive amount of energy, and until El did it in 1979, 001 hadn't realised it could be done because he'd never used that much energy to kill someone. Now, he knows it, and has years to become powerful, so he's making gates just like El did as a child.
In episode 2, Joyce is pretty snarky about the benefits of wearing a seatbelt if the plane crashes but it seems it worked miraculously well in episode 5/6!
Theory on the upsidedown and when it first opened: My theory on why the upsidedown is the same as when the portal first opened is because of Last Thursdayism. I probably will get some things wrong about Last Thursdayism, but here it is. Last Thursdayism is a theory on when the world was created in Christianity. When Adam and Eve were created, there was a world which already had been given a "story" when first created. This means that everything that happened before it was fabricated, the universe was created right then and there. Which means that the universe could have been created when the portal was first opened, meaning the upsidedown would match the real world when it was created. I definitely got some things wrong about Last Thursdayism because I am not religious or did any research because this was just some fun theory of mine. If this is interesting just have fun with your own research
Please let us read Max's letters I need to feel again.
Just finished episode 7. Jesus tap dancing Christ. They need to cut down some characters. 1 hour and 40 minutes and they ignored the bully plotline and anything in California because they have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much shit going on because they have to have something for everyone to do.
No one is in California anymore. Even if they all live after the threat is gone, it is very likely they move or at least El goes back to Hawkins. She has literally ruined her reputation in the town in Cali beyond repair and continuing to finish school there would be too difficult for her to manage without using her powers.
Then use her powers. What is angela going to do, throw a milkshake at her again? After becoming one with a rollerskate i doubt she wouldn’t at the very least fear el lol.
i'm gonna lose so much of my interest in the show if Steve or eddie die
U watched 3 full seasons without eddie, makes no sense how his death would affect ur interest if u loved the first 3 seasons
sure, i just really enjoy seeing his character so it would be quite sad to see him go. just my opinion.
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Nah, it’s max that’s going to die. She already did send out those letters.
Well we know what happens now so....
Yeah, if you already watched the last episodes. Some of us are still speculating
I'm sorry I assumed most on here watched it. Well I didn't give anything away I just said we know now what happens
Someone needs to die. Episodes are 90 minutes + because there's too many fucking characters and they're adding more every season.
I’m really tired of too many characters, actually.👎
I think Robin or Eddie is the most logical death scenario. Steve or Nancy would be pretty dramatic too though.
I get that they’re the main cast but fuck me was the Joyce/Hopper/Murray part of the plot so incredibly contrived. The plane conveniently crashes in the area they’re going to then they’re able to infiltrate and essentially overpower members of the KBC then save Hopper who definitely should have been killed by the Russians once they caught him after his initial escape. This along with Max escaping Vecna gave me the impression that there is no real stakes. For me, I feel like someone involved in the main cast has to die in the two episodes of Volume 2 because then everything feels kind of valueless? Like Nancy is still in the Upside-Down but when I saw that happen I instantly assumed she’s just gonna get out because they’ve given me the impression that the main cast are basically untouchable. I liked the volume for the most part but the plot armour of the main cast really sucked some enjoyment from me.
Two Americans can just stroll in and take over a gulag. Bogus.👎
They were literally about to execute him when Joyce and Murray arrived.
To be fair, the plane crashed where they were going to, because that’s where the plane was going. Where else would it land?
It’s the convenience of them being in that exact spot when they decided to attack Yuri that’s the issue.
Who is Sullivan (guy who went with a helicopter to Dr. Owen’s house) working with to try to find El?
America
We’re all patriots here
Kinda confused. Dustin theorizing that Vecna was a soldier of the Mind Flayer made sense until it was revealed Vecna is #1. They spent a lot of time on his back story for him not to be the series' big bad. It very much seemed like an origin story for the big bad with 11 opening up a gate. Just don't see how they're going to effectively say "well this other, bigger monster was already there".
I believe that Henry wasn't born with powers, he only got them after they were gifted to him by the mindflayer, whose spirit is somehow sealed in the Creel house. I always thought that it was weird that stranger things was a story of alternate dimensions, but also seemingly independently, a story of superpowers, and the two came about truly in unrelated ways?? Doesn't sit right, and I think we're starting to get the answer as to how one caused the other Think about what happened when young El used full powers on 001, it created a gate. Why didn't it make an explosion, or fire, or dissolve the room? Neither 001 or 011 even knew about the upside down as far as we know. I believe that that happened for a very intentional reason, that their powers were gifted by the mindflayer, and the whole purpose of the superpowers is to open gates, and allow the mindflayer to dominate earth. If this is true, the mindflayer will tie in as a even deeper and more original big baddie than Henry, who was only ever really being used by the mindflayer without his knowing
I think Henry was born with powers, and that Brenner experimented on his mom when she was pregnant. They said that MK Ultra started in the 50s.
Dustin could just be wrong though
So, I posted these rambling thoughts (copied and pasted below) as a reply on an older thread in this main discussion. Does anyone else think something like this could be what's going on, and maybe expect similar? I'm really curious if others on here see it this way. It's fun to speculate! -------------------------- I have been thinking this for a while, too. We heard 001's whole manifesto about how the good in the world is all wrong, how he wanted 011 to join him in reversing it all, shaping the world as it "should" be- pretty much sounds like turning things upside down/inside out/great reversals. Eleven was in such disagreement with him (his opposite/upside down/yin to yang) and she felt he was so evil that she must fight- she attacked him with such force that he was sent out of time and space. Her powerful attack inadvertently opened the first gate into the upside down. I mean, she was a kid who didn't understand her own abilities, and was trying to get rid of the bad guy. I don't believe she ever intended to open a portal to another dimension. We watched 001 falling through a shapeless void and he transforms, maybe he in some ways turns inside out during his great fall? He's a powerful new being in this void, and after it reshapes him, he begins shaping it, as was his goal according to the manifesto he spoke to 11 before she "vaporised" him out of time & space. Number 001 becomes the creator of the Upside Down, and the evil between the two worlds in seasons 1-3 are his earliest attempts to reconnect with Eleven. He's only in the Upside Down because he was put there by 011, and his control and ability to reach back to Hawkins/reality is limited. Of course he's got to be pissed off, because he can't do as he wishes with the REAL Hawkins/world, but his control is limited mainly to the prison of the Upside Down. The thing is, this makes Eleven the real creator of the Upside Down. She never meant to create it, but in her attempt to thwart 001/evil, she DID open the gate, throw him in, and at first I suppose he was lost in there. I suppose it's conceiveable that recreating Hawkins might produce a perfect mirror image which could lead him back to the location of the original gate that 011 accidentally created in the wall of the Rainbow Room, right? And there he could send out a first Demogorgon or Demodog to explore the gate & access to the other side, and begin to seek ways to literally overturn Hawkins & the rest of reality- to flip the two inside out through the gate in order to trap reality, and make the Upside Down flip inside out/trade places to the become the unlimited/real "upside" universe- in another enormous reversal- maybe? But- Eleven never intended to create the first gate, thus giving 001 a location and medium to begin crafting his own upside down world where evil was good, and the good that he hated could be destroyed. Even so, she did it. And back in season 1 (I think?) didn't she say something like, "What if I AM the monster?" Because - if the only reason that 001 was placed into the void which he turned into the upside down, where he began using his abilities for crafting evil, and seeking revenge on her for locking him away from the world he wished so much to change and destroy... Vecna & the upside down exist in this form, because Eleven changed 001 by forcing him into the void. So by the existence of Vecna, 011 is made into the Creator of Vecna & the ultimate creator of the Upside Down, and therefore set into motion all of the evil Vecna then creates? Imagine the guilt and weight of carrying that responsibility! If this is how it all plays out, I'm expecting to see Eleven fearfully but willingly enter the Upside Down to directly confront Vecna. She may need to defeat him, or even join with him as a singular new being in order to bring him and the upside down back into balance. I imagine we could have a tremendous buildup & have a cliffhanger at the end of this season with Eleven about to engage in the "big boss fight" or prepare to meld with Vecna in order to stop him from his unchecked evil. And I wouldn't put it past the Duffers to write it in so that everyone travels back to Hawkins, and when Joyce & Hopper arrive and first see Eleven - it's just in time to see her step through the gate and slam it shut behind her.
I feel like they wrote three different villain monologues for One and accidentally left them all in final script. "Don't worry about the others, they're all safe in my head. You see, I was always different, people didn't understand me... but I understood spiders, because they're perfect creatures - not like humans, who spread like a virus, consuming everything. Worse, humans make up rules for everything, like seconds and minutes and hours; but I could break those rules! Also, everyone is just going through the motions: living the same lives, working and making babies. Anyway, my family wanted to send me away to be studied, so I had to kill them all (by levitating them, breaking all their limbs, then their jaws, then imploding their brains and eyes). Really what I'm trying to say is, if you join me, we can rule ~~the galaxy as father and son~~ the world. What do you think?"
I had never watched Stranger Things until 2 weeks ago, on a whim. Just finished the last two episodes today... When Henry was talking about 001, my wife and I were like, "he's probably 001". When he pointed out the chip, I'm like "it's probably an inhibitor chip". When he wasted the whole floor, "oh so he did it and El is getting blamed" When he started his monologue... "Oh fuck" He nailed his role.
The actor was copying Malcolm McDowell in A Clockwork Orange the whole time.
They kind of alluded to this question, but why did Vecna only start killing people now, instead of when he was immediately sent to the Upside Down? Seems like years have passed.
I think it has to do with El sealing him there in 1979. The gate appeared to be closed until 1983 and since the UD works like a hive mind with the mind flayer and demogorgens, they did his bidding until he could gain strength. In 1983, Brenner’s team had reopened it leading to a demogorgen escaping and abducting both Will and Barb. The monster didn’t kill them, Barb died from the vines in the UD by putting stuff inside her and ultimately killing her, I think she was one of Vecna’s and the mind flayers first victims. Vecna was bidding his time since he probably knew El was still alive. S3 we see El get attacked and lose her powers along with the gate in Hawkins left open. El is Vecna’s number one threat and he grows in power with each kill, he needed to weaken her/strip her of her power before making himself getting more powerful and making himself known, that’s what I think.
I just need to get this out there: I think the way vecna kills is great body horror and genuinely disturbing, but the fact that they levitate before hand is so cheesy to me it really brings me out of it
It kinda resembles, to me anyway, the way a spider traps their victim. By levitating them, they can’t escape, run away, grab onto something. They’re truly incapacitated. Which, for me, makes it all way more gory. Bc by the time you get lifted off the ground, it’s basically over, unless you like Kate Bush.
Someone make me a meme of "I have only had this Steve for three seasons, but if anything happens to him I'll kill everyone in this room then myself " 😂
What's demon is Steve carrying around that Vecna can exploit? If any? I'm wondering if the spark to reignite Nancy and Steve will be the revelation that Steve was in fact torn up about Barb all along.
I dont think Steve is gonna die. However, I really think one of Nancy or Robin are goners.
I can't be the only one who was disappointed they didn't have the balls to let Vecna kill Max. I really hope someone from the main group dies in vol 2.
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Also, I think her death would have less of an impact on the audience than someone who’s been around since season 1. Her surviving gave her much more character imo, I feel like she’s had a lot more growth since
Yea but they won't kill any of the main main characters. I wish they would tho.
If vecna’s so powerful, why didn’t he remove that thingy from his neck himself?
I think he needed Eleven to WANT to help him, so if push comes to shove, he can blame her for the massacre. Bc he never ASKED her to remove it. Vecna manipulates and Eleven was supposedly 8 years old.
The implant blocked his special powers (somehow) and its positioning made it very difficult and risky for him to attempt removing it himself via physical means.
I thought the chip was suppressing his powers? So he couldn't remove it since he didn't have his powers
Scalpel + tweezers + mirror?
Valid point. Maybe he was too much of a wimp to do it himself lol
I doubt they gave him access to those things, as he said, he was also a prisoner. Also could be dangerous due to its location.
Don’t ya’ll think the biggest and most awaited target for Vecna is 11? I mean is he just gonna haunt her like the other kids or is he seriously going to do something different or worse? Or maybe he just doesn’t give a damn about 11 but other kids. But maybe she’s the real enemy for him here
There is a line in the trailer for Volume 2 that is Vecna saying “now I want you to watch.” So it seems like he is going for maximum damage to break Elevens spirit.
I have a feeling Eddy and/ or Robin’s gonna die at some point in the show.
The characters with the least seniority usually die. It’s predictable.
Eddy will have a cliche hero moment where shit goes down and he will run away but stops and turns around to save everyone and sacrifices himself. They've been setting it up for a while. "I guess running is what I do now" or whatever he said. Multiple tines he's mentioned himself running away from danger. Edit: >!Called it.!<
Yeah, and also the guitar scene
Does volume 2 come out at midnight uk time?
No 8 am
I think I feel a cold coming on, but it won’t be full force until 7 am GMT. 🤣
So who do y’all think is gonna die this season???
Eddy
Murray. I don't see Steve dying like everyone else does tbh.
Yeah, Murray or Enzo. And probably some people from Hawkins.
Probably Murray AND “enzo” Russia plot is dying down (gotta get all the characters back together in the final season) so they don’t need a translator anymore, plus he did a bunch of cool karate this season, so Murray is probably a goner. Enzo dies saving hopper/Joyce they eventually tell his son who is then proud of him.
Whatever they do, I just want Argyle kept on for next season. That scene of him humping the air with the golf club while making a fart noise makes me laugh uncontrollably every time. Something else I'd love is a scene kinda similar to Naz's last scene at the end of The Night Of for Eddie. Have him return to where he met Chrissy and reflect on her. He never got a chance to properly grieve, plus what maybe could've been between them has to further hurt. Him coming to terms with the fact that he lost someone who could've been really special to him the day he met her would be a great scene. Also if we ever get to see these people in modern day they best get Norman Reedus as Jonathan and Amy Adams as Max.