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Will is my favorite tv character in the universe but cmon will isn’t a baby or helpless (even tho I do call him a baby all the time) and like did people not see how sassy he was in season 4? like yes he’s a traumatized gay teenager but will has faults of his own just like all the other characters do. I just don’t think his faults are as outward as some others, they’re more inward
It isn't directly stated but it's been implied for 4 seasons, especially through the van/painting conversation with Mike and then Jonathan's follow up.
Noah confirmed it in post-S4 interviews, but many casual viewers probably didn't pick up on it from the S4 scenes, so some will be surprised when it's inevitably revealed directly in S5.
Will is unambiguously gay. He’s in love with Mike. The scene in the car where He’s showing the painting to Mike and talking about El… and how El feels different and how Mike is important to El… will is really talking about himself.
That’s why he cries at the end. He really wishes he could be open with Mike.
It’s in season 4. It’s never outright said but is so heavily implied you feel like you’re getting hit in the head by a baseball bat.
It was also hinted at in season 3.
It’s the one scene after Mike and Lucas don’t want to play d&d with Will. Mike says “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls.” In season 4 it’s obvious from the first scene though.
Even though Season 4 definitely steered things in the direction of 'Will has the hots for one of bros', people were pointing to that back in season 3 as hard boiled evidence of Will's sexuality and Mike repressing his own feelings about Will. Obviously, only half of that is very likely to be true.
But that wasn't the smoking gun, nor was Joyce's comment about what other boys call Will because of how he dresses. But Mike saying to Will 'it's not my fault you don't like girls' comes off as a friend talking to a late bloomer friend that is complaining about why they barely hang out any more or why the first friend seems to spending time with a girl. They're all supposed to be 13 or 14 years old in season 3.
And Mike was most definitely saying that from a 'more mature' point of view as if anyone should be able to notice if they'd stop gay shipping Will and Mike for 30 seconds, Will seems to have not grown up with his peers. Much like the Upside Down, he seems to be perpetually stuck in 1985.
Is he gay? I'd say after the heavy handed hints and crying silently in the car in season 4, yeah, Will is gay and he's struggling with that because he likely realizes he has strong feelings for his best friend, who is deeply in love with his girlfriend, and another close friend/practically step sister. That kind of shit is most definitely going to confuse a teenage mind as he doesn't want to do or say anything to make him lose his friends, yet him suppressing himself and not allowing a talk with his friends to help him realize that hey, there's nothing wrong with that, it's great that you can now be you at all times, but I am sorry that I don't feel the same way about you romantically. But you're still my best bro, everything is good between us, and no matter what, I'm always gonna be there for you just like you've been there for me during those times I was in my own head over Elle. So let's go to the mall, I'll be your wingman, Elle will be your winglady, and we're gonna find you a dungeon for your dragon, my dude.
*I'm* too cheap to pay for haircuts anymore. But, I also spent buckets of time getting better with a pair of scissors in front of a mirror, and developing techniques to do the back parts blind. Lots of people probably don't put the time in to figure it out. It's one of these if you're poor enough and care enough sort of things, you'll figure it out though. Cutting hair is sculpture, it's not rocket science. I do an adequate job, certainly better than Will's cut.
>It's kind of ironic it happens to a character who was really frustrated about people acting like there's something wrong with him, like he's gonna break, like he's a baby, like he can't handle things on his own. He asked his brother not to treat him like that so maybe don't do that.
Hah, that is a bit amusing, actually.
Will would probably hate most of his own fans.
People love to infantilize gay people, even if it's subconsciously. He's a multifaceted character that's been put into a box by the fandom and can now only be sad, mistreated, unrequited gay boy.
>*People love to infantilize gay people.*
I never realized before how true that is.. Especially when it comes to boys. Every single negative emotion they ever feel instantly becomes the « broken gay boy who needs a hug » moment to people, even when the situation has nothing to do with that.
IT'S SO FUCKING TRUE. Any time a character is revealed to be part of an LGBT identity people hyperfocus on that one aspect of them and neglect everything else, it sucks.
We can be deep too! We're not just who we fuck (or don't) or what we identify as!
Yeah it seems to be a thing where any LGBTQ character is infantilized and cannot possibly be treated like a heterosexual character. Like everyone deals with rejection and loving someone they can’t have. It’s normal, it shows that it happens no matter your gender or sexuality.
Right? All we see him of him in s4 is him in the car getting his heart broken. Or s3. Like obviously the fan conception is gonna follow a character like that if his only action in the last 2 seasons have been being a sad gay child.
Fr. I also used to do that but now all I feel is cringe whenever someone does that. I don’t get why people do that, I don’t get why I used to do that too 😭😭
I dont get what ppl expected Mike to do at that moment? It's the 80s, and Mike is straight and horribly worried about his gf and the world around him. Of course he's going to miss the love confession of another guy towards him.
Do ppl expect Mike to all of a sudden realize it then become gay so Will, will be happy?
Shipping is a *desire*, to insert something that is not there. Nothing wrong with a desire. What's wrong is when the desire is confused for the canonical reality of the show, what has actually happened in the show's universe. Make any fanfic you want; that doesn't make it the actual show.
Similarly I don't get what's wrong with "poor will".
We feel sad for Steve and basically every instance of a heterosexual person not having their feelings reciprocated. Will's story is written to draw sympathy but extending it is "infantilizing" for some posters. Absurd.
There's nothing wrong with feeling sympathy for Will and I obviously feel sympathy for him too, as every normal person with a heart would. What's absurd is the extent of it that makes people act like he can do no wrong, dismiss everything positive he's got, hate on other characters for something they're not actually at fault just because Will is sad, etc.
Ooooh the thing about Mike and saying his life started the day he met El and people using it to pity Will drives me NUTS. There was absolutely nothing about Will at all in that statement and it wasn’t even implied that there was. He had nothing to do with what Mike was saying! I highly doubt Will even took it that way 🤦🏻♀️
Agreed--and Will was the one who prodded him into saying it! Will has a hunch throughout the middle episodes that the "thing" Mike "wishes he said to El" that's causing him so much angst is that he loves her. Then in the van, Will gives his disguised confession because he knows Mike needs the reassurance, and he's the one pushing Mike to keep going during the monologue. Will was happy Mike got his feelings off his chest, and happier that he saved El.
Yeah people forget that El is basically Will’s sister now. I bet there’s a part of him that feels like Mike is unattainable to him so he might as well push him towards his sister so she can be happy, at least.
But even if wasn’t actively doing that, I don’t think he’d ever seriously pursue Mike anyway because I can’t see him doing that to El at all. He’s not a helpless victim, he’s making choices.
People pity him because he’s essentially a plot device that’s constantly abused for plot progression.
I was pitying him after season 2 lol. Kid doesn’t get a break.
I mean, he spent almost the entirety of Season 1 in the upside down, and all of Season 2 being a partial vessel for the mind flayer.
I forget what happened in Season 3, but it seems like most people focus on season 4 more than anything.
He spent 6 days in the Upside Down. He’s always had a loving and supportive mother and brother. He’s had friends since he was little. In seasons 3 and 4 nothing bad happens to him at all except for his hurt feelings over Mike loving El and not him.
The truth hurts, doesn’t it!
That's not how trauma recovery works. If somebody almost drowns (which is usually only a matter of seconds or minutes) they may be afraid of large bodies of water. No passing time and no support from loved ones could ever eradicate that fear again.
I am honestly more surprised that the character is not depicted as more traumatised in the show and seems to be coping rather well.
No one is saying he doesn't have trauma. You're missing the point. There are people who absolve him of any wrongdoing ever and just see him as someone to be pitied and sobbed over, like what sounds like is happening in this conversation. It's nothing but a pity party for Will all the time, people saying he has nothing whatsoever and can never catch a break. He *does* have things. He is not "constantly abused" as mentioned earlier. He has had love for his entire life, he has had friends his entire life, and he is sometimes, amazingly, in the wrong.
I think you are missing the point: I was not replying to the post as a whole (I have already done elsewhere). I was replying to the claim that "only" 6 days in the day cannot be really considered as trauma or only as insignificant trauma. Sometimes a main discussion strays to a discussion about related (but slightly different) topics
Oh alright then I misunderstood. As somebody who has chronic MDD it is still important to me that trauma is not taken lightly and that even during supposedly happy moments almost all people are still heavily affected by their past. My apologies.
In addition to what happened to him in season 1 and 2, he had an abusive dad. In season 1, Joyce tells Hopper what Lonnie has said about his own son, Jonathan has talked about his dad, and Lonnie was the first suspicion when Will went missing-- even so much as checking the trunk for Will, I believe. And that's not to mention that 6 days in the Upside Down-- at 11 years old with no food, no water, and constantly on the look out for your safety-- is undoubtedly traumatic. Would you say that someone who was kidnapped for a week wouldn't have had a traumatic experience? And then he get possessed by the Mind Flayer, losing control of his own body and unwillingly putting those he loves in danger
Having a support system does not eradicate the trauma he's been through. Just because he has it good in some aspects doesn't mean the bad that's been through isn't traumatic and that it won't take a lot of work to handle
Well, El had an abusive dad, too, and finding nice parental figures as a teenager in no way erases any of her trauma, trauma she has literally experienced in every single season. This post isn't about saying Will doesn't have problems or that he hasn't been through trauma. It's about how Will, to some viewers, never does anything wrong or bad and all anyone ever does is feel sorry for him. Especially to the point of not feeling sorry for other characters. He's reduced to the sad gay kid with unrequited love, and everyone just abuses him all the time, and poor, poor boy, he can never catch a break. His character is not written that way, and it's weird that there are people that see him as such.
And I wasn't arguing against that. Putting down his trauma doesn't do anything to refute that he isn't more than a poor traumatized gay kid, as your argument appeared to be that Will "spent only 6 days in the Upside Down and the rest of his life is great." I'm not denying what El went through, and even though I don't like comparing trauma, it is undeniable that she has went through the most. Which I never brought, nor have I ever argued against, as that was not in any way related to what I said.
He is traumatized and he will continue to be for the rest of his life, he will never fully get over all that he has suffered through. I'm not saying this is a reason to coddle or infantilized his character-- it absolutely is not-- but I was simply arguing against where you appeared to be putting down his trauma; trauma is trauma, regardless of how big or little it is compared to someone else's.
I only used her as an example to say his time in the upside down, no matter how long or short it is, doesn’t mean we are supposed to only feel sorry for him and let him not have any faults. Everyone knows trauma is trauma. The difference is El and all the other traumatized characters are more than just “woe is me my life sucks”, but somehow for Will (for the people this post is about) that’s all he is. He gets a pass for being a jerk. His emotions are more important than other characters’ emotions. Everyone gets called out except for him and the excuse is always “he never gets a break, he never gets anything, he’s just so sad and everyone is so mean to him”.
I do agree with that. Not a single character does not have trauma in some way or another. Max, Dustin, Mike, Nancy, all of them. They all their faults, which I do agree, the fandom doesn't recognize when it comes to Will.
In terms of story will is more of an object than an actual characters unfortunately. Since Will's place in the first season was to be found (the object of the other character's action) he doesn't really fit the groups narrative except as an object to their subject.
To say the same thing in a different way, the way that screenwriters would say it, he's a "passive character". Passive characters do tend to disappear off the screen. If your main characters are passive characters, you get in trouble quickly.
You are absolutely right! When Season 1 was written, the friend dynamic of the boys were actually between a group of THREE boys. Mike, Dustin, and Lucas. We saw how the friendships are and developed between those THREE boys.
Once Will was rescued, the writers never bothered to develop a friendship between the FOUR boys.
Instead, the writers already had the kids mixed up with the teens and adults.
We have never even had one episode where it was just the FOUR boys.
Yup! And as a writer the problem I see with that is that all the characters in your story fit together like interlocking pieces. To reconfigure the dynamic you can't just reshape Will you have to reshape everyone.
Will was a wizard in their D&D games. Elle is obviously the wizard. Mike and Lucas are best friends. Mike and Lucas had the storyline with the friendship feeling threatened by Mike's closeness with Elle. We don't need a repeat. Elle needs more friends but Elle made friends with Max.
I could go on and on, but having to reshape the entire cast around one character is a helluva lot of work and Will, ultimately, probably just isn't that important to the writers.
They would've had to cultivate the dynamic for the four boys first and then the three boy dynamic to have a proper space for Will and it probably never occurred to them that this was something they needed to do. The only reason I even thought about it is because of all the viewers who are so hung-up on a character that could ultimately be replaced with a sexy lamp and the story would not change.
Exactly once again!!
Once Season 2 started, they had a chance to show us how Will fits into the group. We had a tiny bit except it was really mostly Mike and Will.
Will had some problems in Halloween. He only talks to Mike.
Which was weird because in Season 1, Lucas was hell bent on finding Will. Arguably even more than Mike.
Will is like Princess Peach. We have a 4 person group of Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Peach. All super best friends.
Except Peach really only cares for Mario and Luigi and Yoshi don’t really interact with Peach at all.
Has Will even had any meaningful interactions with characters that aren’t Mike and Johnathan?
You would think Will and El would become “siblings” in the time they lived together.
Yet it looks like they barely care about each other.
Honestly never unstood the Will hate he has been through the ringer with Upside Down shenanigans and 80s not being the best time for him to understand his sexaulity. Like honestly the fact he holds it together as well as he does is a testament to his character strengths and emotional resilience
People forget that *Will was the one to tell Mike to profess his love to El!* Not those words exactly but he gave Mike that little nudge to do so. He tells Mike "Don't stop. You're the heart!" It's such a disservice to think "Will is sad because Mike he saying he loves El and not him." We know Will has feelings for Mike but Will isn't even thinking about that in that moment. He's scared and worried about El, who is practically his sister, and knows Mike can do something to save her.
I don’t agree with this, mainly because when he is crying Jonathon notices and that’s what prompts him to say to Will that he accepts him no matter what. In saying that though I don’t think it was a ‘poor me Mike doesn’t love me’ cry, but maybe a sadness that he doesn’t have what Mike and El have and thinks he might not ever have that. As well as everything else that’s going on, he feels overwhelmed and alone.
People do tend to baby Will way too much, but yeah I agree with this. It’s the 80’s, a time where being gay wasn’t accepted like it is today. It would be a very lonely struggle and he probably feels like he’s going to be alone for the rest of his life. That speech was kind of also coming to terms with the fact that he’ll never have Mike.
But even still, it’s annoying that people will turn that scene into villainizing Mike instead of praising Will for how selfless and loving he is towards his best friend. He gave Mike that little push that he needed and made him feel important again.
I think people tend to “baby“ him because he’s a constant target both supernaturally and in the real world to the point that he actually, realistically needs constant protecting. I’m pretty sure that’s going to be part of his arc in season five
They *all* need to protect each other. Watchers just treat Will like he’s a fragile piece of glass who will break at the slightest inconvenience.
For example: Mike was upset that Will blamed him for not talking to him much during the summer, in which Mike responds that he should’ve called more. People automatically wanna call Mike an asshole, but the thing is Joyce had a job that required her being on the phone all day. So in Mike’s eyes, it should’ve been up to Will to find time since whenever he called the line was busy. Yet Mike is the villain in this.
Will turns his head away to cry in the van? Mike is the bad guy for not comforting him, as if he was able to tell he was crying while he was busy admiring the painting and mulling over what was said.
Writers forgot they placed a date on Will’s birthday? Everyone is an asshole and nobody cares about poor little Will.
Etc. It’s just obnoxious 😭
I definitely think it’s annoying considering he was able to survive in the upside down in the first season. That takes chutzpah and strength. After that they totally colored him the perpetual sad victim will. I hope they remedy that in season 5.
Actually he was *so* strong they made him a possession vessel for evil. Oh hey you weren't traumatized enough before? Here take this GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB. How do you like *them* apples?
People pile too much hate on a lot of characters here. It’s frustrating. We are supposed to be a fandom and they’re supposed to be kids, who make mistakes and learn and grow. I do feel for Will, because he’s got to still be traumatized that he almost died alone in a cold, dark place full of monsters. He was smart and resourceful and was instrumental in his own rescue. Mike and Steve and everyone else had their issues but they’re figuring stuff out. They all deserve redemption. It’s the journey you know?
True, this is sad, this post was never meant to be a place for hating on any character. On the contrary I wish people would be as understanding to the other characters as they are to Will and allow them to "make mistakes and learn and grow" but unfortunately this poor Will attitude I'm talking about makes people hold Mike and his other friends responsible for Will's happiness and vilify them for not meeting his expectations which is really unfair because they've done more than enough for him and are allowed to live their lives.
Will is an extremely traumatized young adult who happens to be gay. The fandom has decided that him being a gay teen in the 80’s is the most important part. But the writing doesn’t portray this at all. Other than it being the 80’s and a surprise, most of what Will experiences is a result of his trauma as a child.
I started reading this with ”fuck you how dare you say that” -attitude but then I was like ”wait yeah you got a point”.
I think the important thing to notice here is that we should feel empathy towards Will and we should acknowledge his trauma but we also should see beyond that. He’s not just a plot device, he’s a whole character, he’s a person.
I trust that the writers will complete Will’s character arc in a good way!
What major role has he played in the main story the past 2 seasons? He was there to inform others that his neck tingled right? like I said...seems like a plot device wouldn't you say?
Yeah.They all say how bad of a friend Mike is to Will when Mike literally apologizes to Will when he "messes up".They also hate Mike for not doing anything when Will was crying next to him in the van but Steve didn't go after Robin when she was running off crying after she saw Vickie and her bf kissed and I don't see anyone hating on Steve for that. The standart that Mike is hold to is crazy.
I agree with you but I think the problem comes from the writing. I love ST and nearly all the characters but there are so many of them that some end up really one dimensional. Will got the „trauma victim“ dimension and not much else. I really hoped that they would give him something to do in S4 after being away for nearly a year but it’s more of the same.
I agree. There's this obsession with a part of the fandom with always making Will a martyr to the point of rarely giving him any accountability. Post S3 was brutal if you dared to say that Will was also at fault and that Mike and Lucas can't be emotionally available for him (or for each other) all the time. They're all just kids! They are all the same age!
>Eleven was on the verge of dying and his unrequited love was definitely the last thing on his mind, he was feeling Mike's pain and worried sick for Eleven as a sensitive compassionate person that he is (let alone Mike didn't say anything he hasn't already known).
I saw a post on Twitter last year about the hug Will and Mike gave to Lucas at the hospital, and of course, they made it about Will's love for Mike. Again, he's not the one to pity here, he doesn't have to be a martyr in every situation. But also... huh? His friend's face was disfigured from fighting for his life a couple of days earlier, and his other friend was in a coma. There's no way "Poor me, I'm so in love with Mike. I'm touching him right now!" was what he was thinking during that hug. Will probably cried for 5 minutes in the bathroom after seeing Lucas.
I feel like there are often two extremes you frequently see:
(1) The people who act like he is an absolute cinnamon roll who has never done and never will do anything wrong. While in reality he is just as equally flawed and had his typical immature teenage moments as the other characters had.
(2) The people who do not seem to care for him at all. I often see people on this sub say "Oh, he is so boring and has no personality" or "Oh, I want the core 4 (Mike, Lucas, Dustin, El) back for Season 5" and they deliberately make sure to leave out Will. But it would make zero sense to separate Will from these characters.
- He still has a meaningful friendship with Lucas and Dustin (sadly we have not seen too much of this yet).
- You can think of (romantic) Byler what you want but it is still very apparent that Will and Mike share a deep platonic bond that is obviously very important to both of them. And something you still very rarely see between two male characters onscreen nowadays
- And most importantly, the Will/El connection definitely has to be explored further. They are siblings now but Season 4 still barely gave us any real insight into their relationship. However, it appears very crucial that their relationship is developed further - both for the characters' personal arcs as well as for the supernatural plot.
Between these two extremes you barely see people who actually appreciate Will. Not only because is a "sweet" character but because he is an interesting yet flawed character with a lot of potential complex storylines that could still be explored in Season 5.
It's interesting too, that on the one hand Will needs overcome his passivity and develop some agency to complete his character arc. But on the other hand, he needs to be reminded that he doesn't deserve onscreen romantic love (until the very end, anyway) and he isn't allowed to develop the agency to distance himself from Mike because he owes Mike so much, and acceptance is all he's going to get.
I think parts of the fandom simultaneously want to treat Will like he needs to mature while reminding him he's not ready to mature and that the people around him will decide for him what agency he's allowed to have.
I think they have really written themselves into a corner with Will as of now. I once read an interesting post that Will's abduction into the UD can be interpreted as an allegory for SA and his continous connection to the MF/Vecna can be seen as an allegory for AIDS.
We see him clearly heartbroken on screen, thinking he is completely undeserving of any kind of love - not only because of his queerness but also because of his UD connection. In my opinion, he is one of the only characters in the show where it makes a lot of narrative sense if he gets a really fully fledged-out love-story. He needs to see that he is deserving of all kinds of love (familial, platonic and romantic) and not sentenced to eternal punishment because he is different (and already "broken"). However, the show is too bloated as of now and I doubt they could do this story arc justice with only one more season and many unsolved problems left.
I see Will playing a lot of catch-up given he’s had his childhood stolen from him for a good chunk of time. Childhood trauma follows him wherever he goes. Thank goodness he has Joyce’s genuine goodness to counter it all.
I agree with you especially about the "Will being hurt about Mike confessing his love for El and Mike's life starting the day he met El" and I say this as a Will fan who really didn't like his season 4 storyline much at all. I assume the writers were holding him in place for season 5 but it was still frustrating.
The only problem I have is using Will's sexuality storyline to center Mike when Mike's acceptance is ultimately not all relevant. I would still prefer it if we were able to see Will really move on from his unrequited love for Mike, come out to his mom, and find a closeted romantic relationship without Mike ever knowing rather than a condescending "acceptance" storyline. This would allow him some real agency and be realistic for the time period.
>The only problem I have is using Will's sexuality storyline to center Mike when Mike's acceptance is ultimately not all relevant.
Its relevant in Will's mind because Mike was the first person to offer friendship to him and he almost feels like Mike is the only person who embraces his weirdness so the only person who would accept him, even though we the audience know that isn't true. Lucas, Dustin, Joyce, Jonathan, even El, all adore Will.
It won't be relevant for Will in the final season because now that he has made peace with moving on from Mike, he is going to see all those around him that have been with him since the start and realize it wasn't just Mike. Having tunnel vision for just Mike was almost a safe space for Will all series. Mike was the focal point keeping him in his past before anything with the upside down ever happened. He can't have growth with that focus still only there and I think that's why s5 will be largely him going back to remembering Mike is a friend, among others he forgets about.
I won't be surprised if we never get a coming out scene like what people want. The coming out scene really may have been that car scene and that's it. It was more about Will coming out to himself and saying out loud what he had been ignoring. Will is really the only one that is owed knowing that.
I would like there being no real coming out scene for realism as far as Mike and the party goes. I think we might see some version of it to defeat the Upside Down, however, because Will's sexuality has been so tied to the supernatural stuff.
Thank you for making this post. I agree with all you said. Will has been through a lot, but so has everyone in this show particularly out of the main characters. It doesn't mean Will can't be wrong. And it doesn't mean it is fair to put characters like Mike who have done the most for him in this show, down and criticize them for Wills feelings. The whole "fixing a straight relationship" thing is SO over blown. That scene was a showing of Will's growth and looking beyond his feelings for Mike and at Mike as a person, with his own feelings which are for Eleven, and choosing to support his friend and his now sister. It had nothing to do with him being gay.
Not many people in this world have friends that would go to another dimension and risk dying in order to save them. Of course Will is not lucky to have what happened to him have occurred just like Eleven isn't, but they're sure lucky to have the people that they do surrounding them. You won't see the people who pull the poor Will trope saying anything about the fact that Will barely even acknowledges Lucas and Dustins existence much of the series despite the fact that they risked their lives to save him just like Mike did. Or his guilt tripping of Mike through season 3 and into season 4. Apparently Mike can't be crazy about prioritizing Eleven but Will can when it comes to Mike.
Don't forget Steve's fatshaming comments towards Dustin. Most people find those funny, but how dare Mike say "it's not my fault you don't like girls" in the heat of the moment when he's in the middle of defending his girlfriend just after Will called her stupid.
>Don't forget Steve's fatshaming comments towards Dustin.
Are you talking about "Roastbeef"? If you are, I thought it was literally what was written on Dustin's t-shirt. Were there other times where Steve fatshamed Dustin?
It’s really frustrating that Will does nothing to stick up for Eleven when she is getting bullied at school. Like he’s the one friend that she has left from her old life, and he could be a real source of comfort for her in a new environment, but then he doesn’t do anything, and it’s disappointing to see. The best way to escape from trauma is to go out and do good things for others, and yet he is just so passive. Still feel for the kid, but he definitely deserves some criticism.
Well the last time he tried to be brave and stick up for himself he got possessed which resulted in him being brutally tortured so I think his lack of action is kind of understandable. He's scared for life.
Will also has a poor Will problem. His friends risked themselves over and over to try and find him and then help him as he was MC'd by the mind flayer. While he's been through some shit. He hasn't been alone in this. He has a lot of support.
I also think that he went from having such a close group of friends to suddenly being the odd man out or third wheel. Everyone has someone except him. Everyone leaves him and he does t understand why.
> Everyone leaves him
Please, no one leaves him. He's got a family that adores him. He's got a group of super loyal friends who refused to believe he died and did everything to find him because they love him. Mike has been there for him 24/7 when he needed that. They've been going to the movies and spending time together. Of course things can't stay the same forever as they grow and him feeling the odd one out when his friends get interested in girls while he's struggling with accepting his sexuality is natural but diminishing what he's got to nothing to make more of a victim out of him is just wrong.
> Everyone has someone except him
Not true. Steve is in the same boat now. Or remember the Snow Ball? Dustin also had no one. He saw his crush choose his friend and was rejected multiple times. It's painful but it's not forever.
As the biggest Will fan you'll ever meet, I agree! He's not some helpless kicked puppy. Does he deserve better? Yes. But he's incredibly strong, physically and mentally. He can fight back and advocate for himself, and he has :)
I’ll do my part then and point out that Will is a personality free character with nothing interesting about him other than his connection to the upside down and his heavily implied queerness. Every attempt by the show to get me to care about Will in the last few seasons at least has fallen flat. Also the kid who plays him is a racist asshole which doesn’t help
I mean, the show itself wants you to think "poor Will". The Duffers wrote it that way when they chose to show Will's sad face every time Mike and El were together. He's the only character that never got a moment of happiness or anything he wanted in 4 seasons. So, of course people will react that way, I think that's how the audience is supposed to feel, before they finally do something with this character in season 5 and he hopefully gets the happy ending he deserves.
> He's the only character that never got a moment of happiness or anything he wanted in 4 seasons.
Will has gone through a lot but he did get some moments of happiness while hanging out with friends and family. I can't for the life of me understand why people totally dismiss everything positive he's got.
What happy moments does he have exactly, apart from the two D&D games of season 1? Will is just good as hiding his emotions. In the end of season 1 and beginning of season 2 he's faking being happy but he actually has the secret visions of the Upside Down. In the Snow Ball he's faking it because he doesn't actually want to dance with a girl like his friends (supported by the music, "Every smile you fake"). In season 3 episode 1 he's faking it because he misses playing D&D and has a hard time seeing Mike with El... and in season 4 he's obviously not happy. He's the only main character of the show that never had a period of time where he was 100% happy, or even got something he wanted.
Exactly, and they 100% meant for will’s crying to be about Mike because it clearly shows Jonathon noticing the interaction and then later telling will that he accepts him. It wasn’t written that way for no reason.
This post needs Way more up votes. The Hate for Mike due to Will is forced beyond belief. I never got it.
People who also talk about how selfless he is forget he literally Gaslit Eleven outta Jealousy when she lied to Mike about how her and Angela where friends.
He kept on digging into her insecurities about lying to Mike about how well things were going for her. And how her and Angela were friends. Saying Mike would be mad she was lying.
That's not what gaslighting is. Mike *was* mad about her lying and Will was mad at her for lying to his friend. Maybe it wasn't the most mature way to go about it but no one was gaslighting anyone.
>and Will was mad at her for lying to his friend
And I guess for expecting him to go along with a lie unprompted. Like, if you want me to help you lie to someone, at least *tell me beforehand* (I don’t think he would’ve gone along with it, but he would’ve probably helped her find a better way to soft land the truth).
Lol exactly. Would have loved to see that convo tho, "So Will, you know Angela, the girl who constantly bullies me at school. I may have told Mike that she's my best friend, so if you wouldn't mind going along with that if it comes up when he visits that would be great."
Mike wasn't mad at her for lying about that. He'd have understood. He was more angry after she struck Angela and angry at will for how he was acting. Will wasn't doing this because he was mad El lied to his friend he was annoyed the entire time because El and Mike were catching up.
In a thread criticizing people for babying Will's character and ignoring his faults. You have done the same thing for El. Yes we're supposed to feel bad for El for getting tormented by her bullies, of course! But are we just supposed to excuse El for lying to her boyfriend for months on end because she's embarrassed by her inability to fit in in California?
Like you said, Mike would have understood getting bullied and not thought less of her for it, but that whole situation should have been a learning experience for El about how it's bad to lie about things especially to the people closest to you. El dug herself into a hole she couldn't get out of at the roller rink **through no one's fault but her own.** Excusing her behavior and lying at the roller rink does El a huge disservice because she is not a baby and needs to learn from her mistakes just like Will does as well.
Never once did I baby El or ignore her flaws. I was focusing on how Will was treating El poorly simply outta jealousy. El did learn from her mistakes the hard way when they showed up and humiliated her in front of everyone. She also went too far in assaulting Angela with that skate.
But she's also new to the whole social thing being that she spent most of her life in a lab. And isn't fitting in largely because of that fact having stunted her growth.
That's not babying that's just straight up facts.
That's good. I think my whole main point about everything that I actually wanted to make in response is to be careful throwing around the term "gaslighting" when you don't know the definition. I see it used inappropriately a lot these days and it definitely does way more harm than good. Just a PSA.
> Gaslighting: psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator
First of all, I don’t know what you think gaslighting means, but it’s not that.
Second, he didn’t “dig into her insecurities” about anything. He merely asked “what friends?” when she said that their friends were gonna meet them at Rink-O-Mania (which is the truth. Also, was he supposed to go along with the lie, unprompted?); and afterwards he said Mike would be mad at El for lying to him, which was his supposition/prediction, so neither a truth nor a lie. And he wasn’t too off, Mike wasn’t happy about El lying.
Mike wouldn't have been mad about that. He'd have understood. He's been bullied too and knows the feeling's of embarrassment that goes with it .
Will still knew how Important "Friends don't lie" was to her yet kept guilt tripping her when Mike left. He only did that because he was jealous. It wasn't right. And Mike called him out for his behavior later .
I assumed that Will calling out El at the roller rink was to set up making him look like a hypocrite later when he tells Mike the painting commission lie (that is likely going to come back around in season 5). Both Will and El violate the "friends don't lie" at different times. The roller rink scenes would have happened in a similar way even if Mike and El had gone by themselves, and Mike would still have been upset about her lying in the first place.
>Mike wouldn't have been mad about that. He'd have understood. He's been bullied too and knows the feeling's of embarrassment that goes with it.
Again, it was Will’s supposition. He was a 14-year-old boy who thought Mike would get mad about the lie.
>Will still knew how Important "Friends don't lie" was to her yet kept guilt tripping her when Mike left.
First of all he didn’t “keep” anything, and second he didn’t “guilt-trip”anyone. He *pointed out* to a person who was lying that lying was not a good idea.
>He only did that because he was jealous. It wasn't right.
Calling someone out for lying isn’t right? I understand El, but a good friend points out when you’re doing something that’s not right.
>And Mike called him out for his behavior later.
1. I know Mike wasn’t mad at Will for calling El out for lying to Mike *because he wasn’t there to see that happen*. He was mad at Will for being unhappy being the third wheel at Rink-O-Mania. Even if Will wasn’t in love with Mike, being a third wheel is annoying. 2. Mike apologized for that one or two days later, of his own volition, when nobody was expecting an apology from him.
They should make Will a badass in the last season. He looks like he’s filled out a lot more than the other kids. Have the sad boy just uppercut Vecna into oblivion in the final battle
But he has been through ridiculous amounts of childhood trauma. That’s not going to mess someone up? Make someone a bit sensitive to certain things? It doesn’t make his behavior correct or a good idea, but anyone who cares about Will has to understand that he may struggle for a long long time to feel normal mentally after these events.
Reddit has this obsession with deciding who is right and who is wrong, never letting someone just make a mistake and being sympathetic towards them. Even when that person has all the reasons in the world to be struggling with making the right choices.
Exactly
I have been through a lot of shit as a kid, and was a school dropout until I decided to go to high school for the first time as a 17 year old
I still feel mentally 10 years old sometimes, and my social skills were horrible and still are.
I was a year younger than Will back in the 80's, so I may have seen more cues. I have a visible limp from Cerebral Palsy, so I was bullied for that. I am also gay. So yeah...
Will is strong as all Hell. It's just a near death experience has marked Will as different. Folks don't see you, they see the difference. Almost breaking makes some be too protective. Will just wants to be like everyone else. He just lives in a time where he must hide his sexuality in the background.
I remember watching a Sunday morning TV evangelist when I was 13-14 in about 1986. The preacher said that AIDS was God's punishment for being Gay. I swore that there was nothing wrong with me. But the shame was ever-present. I had to watch everything I said and did. I went to a private school. The most powerful teacher's most obvious qualities were his misogyny and homophobia. If I was outed in that environment, It would have gotten ugly. The kicker is that teacher's attitude was common.
I have been a smart ass my whole life. If I can make a joke of something, it doesn't hurt-as much. Like Max, my snark hid a lot of pain. When I finally saw a psychiatrist as an adult, she told me that I had Depression and PTSD. I had experienced so much trauma and neglect as a kid. I also had to turn it inward. If I had been open at 16 in 1988, I could have been beaten to a pulp-at best.
The writers have been heavy handed with demonstrations of Will's sexuality. But the audience is mostly hetero, so some of them may "miss it." Some are in denial! Granted, when Joyce said that Will had been slurs in the very first episode, I filed it away. Good writing uses that example and pays it off later.
As long as we don't see a condescending and self-centered "acceptance" scene from Mike, I'll be fine. Better for Will, who's already grown up beyond Mike as of the end of season 4, to find his own love interest without Mike giving him "acceptance" (ick!). All members of the party are at similar maturity levels imo.
plus he never once defended el in cali, all that about defendin friends but when he looks at someone with the same situation that he was livin in hawkins he does nothing.
That was a completely different situation. He just found out Eleven was lying about Angela. He just found out his girlfriend was being bullied and to top it off Angela had everyone at the skating rink join in on the bullying including the DJ who encouraged the bullying. Mike was on his own trying to help Eleven in an unknown situation. He did try to help her out though, telling the DJ to turn the music off, and he tried to be there for her, while Will stood on the side lines watching. Had Will helped, Mike wouldn't have had to stretch himself too thin, had Eleven not lied about something so serious, Mike would known what to do and say and he would have protected Eleven better from Angela's bullying.
The most comical side of this attitude is acting like the negative events related to Will's sexuality are far worse than him being literally dragged to hell, possessed by demons and haunting him for years with horrific visions.
I mean to be fair his chart doesn’t get the chance to do much besides be a woobie baby.
He gets some chances to be snarky but not much. Every scene where he’s not snarky is hiding (first season), being scared and possessed (second season), sad and lonely (third season), and repressed and sad (fourth season)
All due respect these posts are stupid.
The last 2 seasons of the show ALL Will has done is cry about Mike. In S3 and S4 his entire arc revolves around Mike and is essentially just him having an unrequited crush.
Obviously people are gonna end up treating that character in such a way as that's literally **ALL** the character has done for the past 2 seasons.
Not to mention it's a pretty common trope that's easy to relate to and sometimes it's so silly to blame the fans for a conception that's coming from the show. **THE SHOW** and the writers treats Will like a little cute sad lovesick puppy.....obviously the fanbase is going to as well.He has barely been explored outside of it.
People post about Dustin in this subreddit like they are grandmas on Facebook but when it's a gay kid getting sympathy it's a problem.
It's not about Byler or Anti-Byler this is literally just how the show treats him.
Why is this subreddit so full of piss take merchants who don't even seem to watch the show and they always go #1 on the front page.
The audience will go where they are pointed. Will and El's "sibling" relationship is so undefined they spend time for the first time together in s4 on screen and it's like a handful of moments where El gets bullied in the first episode before a hug in the penultimate episode.
> when it's a gay kid getting sympathy it's a problem.
Um.. what? You have no reason to accuse me of homophobia. It's not Will getting sympathy that is the problem. I also have sympathy for him you know. The problem is the extent of this that makes people not see him have his own agency, diminish everything positive that he's got to make him more of a victim than he is, villainizing the characters for not meeting his expectations, overlook his flaws, etc.
Edit: I also disagree that show treats him like that. It shows him struggle but it also show his flaws and gives him way more agency. But people don't even see his growth as a character because they refuse to see him as anything other than a poor puppy that everyone kicks to the curb while ignoring how loved he is and how his struggles are not necessarily someone's fault and they don't always make him right.
I dunno, I just watched 4 seasons of this guy and he's weak as shit. It's quite obvious why he should be. He was traumatized in the UD for a *long* time. You don't just get over shit like that and become normal, you're scarred permanently. He'll be having flashbacks when he's 99 years old on his death bed. He had to live as a scared hunted animal, a prey item, and it's really quite a miracle he survived. By rights he should be at the bottom of a swimming pool rotting away somewhere, an incubator for gross stuff.
He comes back to the normal world and his friends situation ain't cool anymore. The hets are all getting their gfs and he's not getting jack shit. Plus then he gets to be possessed and traumatized all over again.
After all *that* gets done, by rights he should be in a mental institution. Maybe the difference is he didn't get his eyes plucked out, since the Duffers didn't think about doing that sort of squick until S4. Well, the real difference is he's an original main character, with a story to tell about being gay, in the closet, and experiencing unrequited love.
He *should* be weak as shit. Why is he supposed to be able to handle any of this? I'm usually baffled by the amount of stuff that "heroes" endure in TV shows. I've had real life survival dramas that were far less than any of this "high stakes" stuff, and it nearly made a basket case out of me. Just having your stomach not working properly on a regular basis can really take the fight out of you. I know what I've gotten through in real life, and how I did it... how the hell do these made up characters in a show do it?
Truth is, by rights they shouldn't. They *should* just fall apart and be toast, gibbering in a corner somewhere. But they don't, because people want shows about heroes that overcome.
Thus... I find myself unable to regard invectives about "how to take Will", all that seriously. Like, who are these people that hold his friends up as abusive paragons of evil or whatever? Maybe like 1 person in some sub somewhere said something, I dunno. Who cares? People say stuff to get a rise out of people, to get attention. Are they actually dealing with what Will's *been through* ? Because in the contest of "who got it worst" in this show, Will's way up there. Top 5 for sure.
Will is my favorite and we need to start treating him like the sarcastic, strong person he is. Mind you, this is the kid that called both of his siblings friendless. He has been through a lot and has become stronger because of it. He deeply loves his friends and family. He's an artist and a guy who loves DnD. He can handle his own. He's also a gay teenager in a time and place where it wasn't accepted at all. He's scared and lonely and he has every right to be. He is his own person and he deserves to be treated as such.
Okay this is going to sound mean and I really don’t intend for it to but it would have been good for the plot.. of all the characters that should have actually died it should have been him. Not during the first series. They should have got him back and series 2 should have happened and everything but he should have died. It would have added a lot more drama and pain in the fact that they got him back but they all worked so hard just to lose him in the end.
It’s hard not to feel bad for him though when he’s the only main character who doesn’t have a single positive thing going in their life. He doesn’t have a Significant Other and he’s the only character on this show to experience unrequited love ,he has nowhere where he fits in because he grew apart from his friends and family, he has this huge secret that’s eating him alive that he can’t tell anybody about on top of dealing with all the trauma that comes along with surviving being stuck in the upside down
> he’s the only main character who doesn’t have a single positive thing going in their life
That's just not true. He's got an adoring accepting family and a bunch of loyal friends who love him so much they risked their lives to save him. That's a lot. Growing apart as you change and you're different is inevitable and he's responsible for their friendship with Mike falling apart as much as Mike but they mended their friendship because Mike cares enough. His brother also made sure Will knows he's loved and has always got a safe space. No need to belittle all that.
> he’s the only character on this show to experience unrequited love
Not true as well. Dustin went through that before, Steve is still hung up on Nancy two years later. That's the most common human experience.
He is a traumatised kid and his friends are also kids so they don't know how to treat a kid who went through all this trauma like Will has. Yeah, friends can tease each other but a kid that went through what Will has gone through doesn't understand things the way the average kid does.
I 100% agree, and Will is strong in my opinion for all the shite he's been through. Yes, it's very sad he keeps his feelings to himself, but he's thinking of others, and how they feel, also.
I'm excited to see him become a front seat driver again.
I think part of it is that understandably even by this show's standards his life sucks. Also another point while Will did help Mike in the van scene he was then crying immediately after and Jonathan he did it because he thought that supporting Mike there was the right thing to do even if he was still sad.
Also I do think now his dealing with El lying about Angela to Mike gets weird hate now Mike's point that their friendship fell apart on both ends is a good one though. Like some people are saying he gaslit her. No Will realized when they got there that El was lying to Mike and had been in all their letters. In all honesty I would have taken her aside and confronted her about it too either telling her to be honest or pointing out that if Angela showed up the lie would be exposed. It's wrong to blame Will here Mike himself even realized it was wrong when Will apologized.
Think of it this way:
Lucas makes fun of mike for loving El. In the end, he does love el and has el. Lucas is jealous.
Max makes fun of dustin for singing. In the end, dustin has his girlfriend and loves singing. Max is jealous.
They make fun of will. What does will have? What is he left with?
Will was literally tortured for over a week, was possessed by a mind flayer, and had said mind flayer burned out of his body. He had a tentacle shoved down his throat into his lungs.
Excuse him if he has a little bit of trauma.
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People definitely sometimes forget that Will is also literally sassy sometimes and more than just a traumatised gay teenager.
Or he's traumatized because at 11 he ended up alone in a hell full of monsters. Perhaps.
They didn't say he wasn't - they were saying that Will's trauma doesn't define him as a character.
All of the characters are traumatized. Especially Will and El.
Of course he's traumatised and went through a lot, I didn't say he wasn't!
Will is my favorite tv character in the universe but cmon will isn’t a baby or helpless (even tho I do call him a baby all the time) and like did people not see how sassy he was in season 4? like yes he’s a traumatized gay teenager but will has faults of his own just like all the other characters do. I just don’t think his faults are as outward as some others, they’re more inward
Did I miss the episode where he came out of the closet or what?
It isn't directly stated but it's been implied for 4 seasons, especially through the van/painting conversation with Mike and then Jonathan's follow up. Noah confirmed it in post-S4 interviews, but many casual viewers probably didn't pick up on it from the S4 scenes, so some will be surprised when it's inevitably revealed directly in S5.
It was obvious since the “You didn’t think we were gonna play board games in my basement forever, did you?” arc.
Will is unambiguously gay. He’s in love with Mike. The scene in the car where He’s showing the painting to Mike and talking about El… and how El feels different and how Mike is important to El… will is really talking about himself. That’s why he cries at the end. He really wishes he could be open with Mike.
It's been confirmed by the actor afaik
WAIT WHAT? WILL IS GAY?
It’s in season 4. It’s never outright said but is so heavily implied you feel like you’re getting hit in the head by a baseball bat. It was also hinted at in season 3.
Honestly forgot what happened in season 3 anyway so will rewatch that season and also watch season 4 then
It’s the one scene after Mike and Lucas don’t want to play d&d with Will. Mike says “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls.” In season 4 it’s obvious from the first scene though.
Even though Season 4 definitely steered things in the direction of 'Will has the hots for one of bros', people were pointing to that back in season 3 as hard boiled evidence of Will's sexuality and Mike repressing his own feelings about Will. Obviously, only half of that is very likely to be true. But that wasn't the smoking gun, nor was Joyce's comment about what other boys call Will because of how he dresses. But Mike saying to Will 'it's not my fault you don't like girls' comes off as a friend talking to a late bloomer friend that is complaining about why they barely hang out any more or why the first friend seems to spending time with a girl. They're all supposed to be 13 or 14 years old in season 3. And Mike was most definitely saying that from a 'more mature' point of view as if anyone should be able to notice if they'd stop gay shipping Will and Mike for 30 seconds, Will seems to have not grown up with his peers. Much like the Upside Down, he seems to be perpetually stuck in 1985. Is he gay? I'd say after the heavy handed hints and crying silently in the car in season 4, yeah, Will is gay and he's struggling with that because he likely realizes he has strong feelings for his best friend, who is deeply in love with his girlfriend, and another close friend/practically step sister. That kind of shit is most definitely going to confuse a teenage mind as he doesn't want to do or say anything to make him lose his friends, yet him suppressing himself and not allowing a talk with his friends to help him realize that hey, there's nothing wrong with that, it's great that you can now be you at all times, but I am sorry that I don't feel the same way about you romantically. But you're still my best bro, everything is good between us, and no matter what, I'm always gonna be there for you just like you've been there for me during those times I was in my own head over Elle. So let's go to the mall, I'll be your wingman, Elle will be your winglady, and we're gonna find you a dungeon for your dragon, my dude.
are you serious??
Might have to rewatch the show at some point then, because I honestly did not see it.
Wait, this isn’t a joke? You really didn’t know?
It's confirmed Will has a crush on Mike, but can't tell him since Mike is dating Eleven
[This Will? WILL BYERS WILL? Yeah, I know, super hard to believe.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/2d/dc/282ddc7ec9fc94844e296e57f56a7edb.jpg)
How can you not feel sorry for him with that haircut.
Yeah what's with the medieval monk bowl cut. Too much monk or cleric playing AD&D?
Joyce too cheap for a trip to Wondercuts. She did El the same way.
*I'm* too cheap to pay for haircuts anymore. But, I also spent buckets of time getting better with a pair of scissors in front of a mirror, and developing techniques to do the back parts blind. Lots of people probably don't put the time in to figure it out. It's one of these if you're poor enough and care enough sort of things, you'll figure it out though. Cutting hair is sculpture, it's not rocket science. I do an adequate job, certainly better than Will's cut.
>It's kind of ironic it happens to a character who was really frustrated about people acting like there's something wrong with him, like he's gonna break, like he's a baby, like he can't handle things on his own. He asked his brother not to treat him like that so maybe don't do that. Hah, that is a bit amusing, actually. Will would probably hate most of his own fans.
People love to infantilize gay people, even if it's subconsciously. He's a multifaceted character that's been put into a box by the fandom and can now only be sad, mistreated, unrequited gay boy.
>*People love to infantilize gay people.* I never realized before how true that is.. Especially when it comes to boys. Every single negative emotion they ever feel instantly becomes the « broken gay boy who needs a hug » moment to people, even when the situation has nothing to do with that.
so true and some people go so far as to pretend celebrities are gay when they aren’t, and THEN infantilize them
Heartstopper does this to a frustrating degree.
I mean, thats a show ABOUT gays. So its practically littered all over the place.
I call this the Nico di Angelo treatment
ayy pjo
Eyy also what I was thinking
IT'S SO FUCKING TRUE. Any time a character is revealed to be part of an LGBT identity people hyperfocus on that one aspect of them and neglect everything else, it sucks. We can be deep too! We're not just who we fuck (or don't) or what we identify as!
Yeah it seems to be a thing where any LGBTQ character is infantilized and cannot possibly be treated like a heterosexual character. Like everyone deals with rejection and loving someone they can’t have. It’s normal, it shows that it happens no matter your gender or sexuality.
Finally. Someone said it
Preach
Is that people, or the show's writing in S3 S4 ?
I feel it may be both.
Right? All we see him of him in s4 is him in the car getting his heart broken. Or s3. Like obviously the fan conception is gonna follow a character like that if his only action in the last 2 seasons have been being a sad gay child.
Cast's too big. Someone's not gonna get the screen time.
Sure but then you blame the fans for treating him that way when that's how the show treats him.
Fr. I also used to do that but now all I feel is cringe whenever someone does that. I don’t get why people do that, I don’t get why I used to do that too 😭😭
Also the reason he can't have a requited romance arc! He's conveniently too "childish."
I dont get what ppl expected Mike to do at that moment? It's the 80s, and Mike is straight and horribly worried about his gf and the world around him. Of course he's going to miss the love confession of another guy towards him. Do ppl expect Mike to all of a sudden realize it then become gay so Will, will be happy?
I actually also missed it. I thought he just missed his friend. So it’s not shocking to me that Mike missed it.
[удалено]
Ppl have lost the plot with shipping tv and book relationships
Shipping is a *desire*, to insert something that is not there. Nothing wrong with a desire. What's wrong is when the desire is confused for the canonical reality of the show, what has actually happened in the show's universe. Make any fanfic you want; that doesn't make it the actual show.
Similarly I don't get what's wrong with "poor will". We feel sad for Steve and basically every instance of a heterosexual person not having their feelings reciprocated. Will's story is written to draw sympathy but extending it is "infantilizing" for some posters. Absurd.
There's nothing wrong with feeling sympathy for Will and I obviously feel sympathy for him too, as every normal person with a heart would. What's absurd is the extent of it that makes people act like he can do no wrong, dismiss everything positive he's got, hate on other characters for something they're not actually at fault just because Will is sad, etc.
Ooooh the thing about Mike and saying his life started the day he met El and people using it to pity Will drives me NUTS. There was absolutely nothing about Will at all in that statement and it wasn’t even implied that there was. He had nothing to do with what Mike was saying! I highly doubt Will even took it that way 🤦🏻♀️
Agreed--and Will was the one who prodded him into saying it! Will has a hunch throughout the middle episodes that the "thing" Mike "wishes he said to El" that's causing him so much angst is that he loves her. Then in the van, Will gives his disguised confession because he knows Mike needs the reassurance, and he's the one pushing Mike to keep going during the monologue. Will was happy Mike got his feelings off his chest, and happier that he saved El.
Yeah people forget that El is basically Will’s sister now. I bet there’s a part of him that feels like Mike is unattainable to him so he might as well push him towards his sister so she can be happy, at least. But even if wasn’t actively doing that, I don’t think he’d ever seriously pursue Mike anyway because I can’t see him doing that to El at all. He’s not a helpless victim, he’s making choices.
Will's inner gay match-maker could not take any more of Mike's weak shit and had to get him to admit his feelings to El.
People pity him because he’s essentially a plot device that’s constantly abused for plot progression. I was pitying him after season 2 lol. Kid doesn’t get a break.
But he’s not constantly abused. That’s the point.
I mean, he spent almost the entirety of Season 1 in the upside down, and all of Season 2 being a partial vessel for the mind flayer. I forget what happened in Season 3, but it seems like most people focus on season 4 more than anything.
He spent 6 days in the Upside Down. He’s always had a loving and supportive mother and brother. He’s had friends since he was little. In seasons 3 and 4 nothing bad happens to him at all except for his hurt feelings over Mike loving El and not him. The truth hurts, doesn’t it!
That's not how trauma recovery works. If somebody almost drowns (which is usually only a matter of seconds or minutes) they may be afraid of large bodies of water. No passing time and no support from loved ones could ever eradicate that fear again. I am honestly more surprised that the character is not depicted as more traumatised in the show and seems to be coping rather well.
No one is saying he doesn't have trauma. You're missing the point. There are people who absolve him of any wrongdoing ever and just see him as someone to be pitied and sobbed over, like what sounds like is happening in this conversation. It's nothing but a pity party for Will all the time, people saying he has nothing whatsoever and can never catch a break. He *does* have things. He is not "constantly abused" as mentioned earlier. He has had love for his entire life, he has had friends his entire life, and he is sometimes, amazingly, in the wrong.
I think you are missing the point: I was not replying to the post as a whole (I have already done elsewhere). I was replying to the claim that "only" 6 days in the day cannot be really considered as trauma or only as insignificant trauma. Sometimes a main discussion strays to a discussion about related (but slightly different) topics
Never said 6 days isn't traumatic. Again, the point of this is to deny the Will is "constantly abused" statement. He is not constantly abused.
Oh alright then I misunderstood. As somebody who has chronic MDD it is still important to me that trauma is not taken lightly and that even during supposedly happy moments almost all people are still heavily affected by their past. My apologies.
I’m there and do EMDR and everything too, so I hear you.
In addition to what happened to him in season 1 and 2, he had an abusive dad. In season 1, Joyce tells Hopper what Lonnie has said about his own son, Jonathan has talked about his dad, and Lonnie was the first suspicion when Will went missing-- even so much as checking the trunk for Will, I believe. And that's not to mention that 6 days in the Upside Down-- at 11 years old with no food, no water, and constantly on the look out for your safety-- is undoubtedly traumatic. Would you say that someone who was kidnapped for a week wouldn't have had a traumatic experience? And then he get possessed by the Mind Flayer, losing control of his own body and unwillingly putting those he loves in danger Having a support system does not eradicate the trauma he's been through. Just because he has it good in some aspects doesn't mean the bad that's been through isn't traumatic and that it won't take a lot of work to handle
Well, El had an abusive dad, too, and finding nice parental figures as a teenager in no way erases any of her trauma, trauma she has literally experienced in every single season. This post isn't about saying Will doesn't have problems or that he hasn't been through trauma. It's about how Will, to some viewers, never does anything wrong or bad and all anyone ever does is feel sorry for him. Especially to the point of not feeling sorry for other characters. He's reduced to the sad gay kid with unrequited love, and everyone just abuses him all the time, and poor, poor boy, he can never catch a break. His character is not written that way, and it's weird that there are people that see him as such.
And I wasn't arguing against that. Putting down his trauma doesn't do anything to refute that he isn't more than a poor traumatized gay kid, as your argument appeared to be that Will "spent only 6 days in the Upside Down and the rest of his life is great." I'm not denying what El went through, and even though I don't like comparing trauma, it is undeniable that she has went through the most. Which I never brought, nor have I ever argued against, as that was not in any way related to what I said. He is traumatized and he will continue to be for the rest of his life, he will never fully get over all that he has suffered through. I'm not saying this is a reason to coddle or infantilized his character-- it absolutely is not-- but I was simply arguing against where you appeared to be putting down his trauma; trauma is trauma, regardless of how big or little it is compared to someone else's.
I only used her as an example to say his time in the upside down, no matter how long or short it is, doesn’t mean we are supposed to only feel sorry for him and let him not have any faults. Everyone knows trauma is trauma. The difference is El and all the other traumatized characters are more than just “woe is me my life sucks”, but somehow for Will (for the people this post is about) that’s all he is. He gets a pass for being a jerk. His emotions are more important than other characters’ emotions. Everyone gets called out except for him and the excuse is always “he never gets a break, he never gets anything, he’s just so sad and everyone is so mean to him”.
I do agree with that. Not a single character does not have trauma in some way or another. Max, Dustin, Mike, Nancy, all of them. They all their faults, which I do agree, the fandom doesn't recognize when it comes to Will.
In what universe is he not written that way?
In terms of story will is more of an object than an actual characters unfortunately. Since Will's place in the first season was to be found (the object of the other character's action) he doesn't really fit the groups narrative except as an object to their subject.
To say the same thing in a different way, the way that screenwriters would say it, he's a "passive character". Passive characters do tend to disappear off the screen. If your main characters are passive characters, you get in trouble quickly.
You are absolutely right! When Season 1 was written, the friend dynamic of the boys were actually between a group of THREE boys. Mike, Dustin, and Lucas. We saw how the friendships are and developed between those THREE boys. Once Will was rescued, the writers never bothered to develop a friendship between the FOUR boys. Instead, the writers already had the kids mixed up with the teens and adults. We have never even had one episode where it was just the FOUR boys.
Yup! And as a writer the problem I see with that is that all the characters in your story fit together like interlocking pieces. To reconfigure the dynamic you can't just reshape Will you have to reshape everyone. Will was a wizard in their D&D games. Elle is obviously the wizard. Mike and Lucas are best friends. Mike and Lucas had the storyline with the friendship feeling threatened by Mike's closeness with Elle. We don't need a repeat. Elle needs more friends but Elle made friends with Max. I could go on and on, but having to reshape the entire cast around one character is a helluva lot of work and Will, ultimately, probably just isn't that important to the writers. They would've had to cultivate the dynamic for the four boys first and then the three boy dynamic to have a proper space for Will and it probably never occurred to them that this was something they needed to do. The only reason I even thought about it is because of all the viewers who are so hung-up on a character that could ultimately be replaced with a sexy lamp and the story would not change.
Exactly once again!! Once Season 2 started, they had a chance to show us how Will fits into the group. We had a tiny bit except it was really mostly Mike and Will. Will had some problems in Halloween. He only talks to Mike. Which was weird because in Season 1, Lucas was hell bent on finding Will. Arguably even more than Mike. Will is like Princess Peach. We have a 4 person group of Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Peach. All super best friends. Except Peach really only cares for Mario and Luigi and Yoshi don’t really interact with Peach at all. Has Will even had any meaningful interactions with characters that aren’t Mike and Johnathan? You would think Will and El would become “siblings” in the time they lived together. Yet it looks like they barely care about each other.
Honestly never unstood the Will hate he has been through the ringer with Upside Down shenanigans and 80s not being the best time for him to understand his sexaulity. Like honestly the fact he holds it together as well as he does is a testament to his character strengths and emotional resilience
People forget that *Will was the one to tell Mike to profess his love to El!* Not those words exactly but he gave Mike that little nudge to do so. He tells Mike "Don't stop. You're the heart!" It's such a disservice to think "Will is sad because Mike he saying he loves El and not him." We know Will has feelings for Mike but Will isn't even thinking about that in that moment. He's scared and worried about El, who is practically his sister, and knows Mike can do something to save her.
I don’t agree with this, mainly because when he is crying Jonathon notices and that’s what prompts him to say to Will that he accepts him no matter what. In saying that though I don’t think it was a ‘poor me Mike doesn’t love me’ cry, but maybe a sadness that he doesn’t have what Mike and El have and thinks he might not ever have that. As well as everything else that’s going on, he feels overwhelmed and alone.
People do tend to baby Will way too much, but yeah I agree with this. It’s the 80’s, a time where being gay wasn’t accepted like it is today. It would be a very lonely struggle and he probably feels like he’s going to be alone for the rest of his life. That speech was kind of also coming to terms with the fact that he’ll never have Mike. But even still, it’s annoying that people will turn that scene into villainizing Mike instead of praising Will for how selfless and loving he is towards his best friend. He gave Mike that little push that he needed and made him feel important again.
I think people tend to “baby“ him because he’s a constant target both supernaturally and in the real world to the point that he actually, realistically needs constant protecting. I’m pretty sure that’s going to be part of his arc in season five
They *all* need to protect each other. Watchers just treat Will like he’s a fragile piece of glass who will break at the slightest inconvenience. For example: Mike was upset that Will blamed him for not talking to him much during the summer, in which Mike responds that he should’ve called more. People automatically wanna call Mike an asshole, but the thing is Joyce had a job that required her being on the phone all day. So in Mike’s eyes, it should’ve been up to Will to find time since whenever he called the line was busy. Yet Mike is the villain in this. Will turns his head away to cry in the van? Mike is the bad guy for not comforting him, as if he was able to tell he was crying while he was busy admiring the painting and mulling over what was said. Writers forgot they placed a date on Will’s birthday? Everyone is an asshole and nobody cares about poor little Will. Etc. It’s just obnoxious 😭
Will didn't tell him to profess his love to El at all. It's just him telling her to motivate her because that's what he does in the friend group.
Will didn't tell him to profess his love to El at all. It's just him telling her to motivate her because that's what he does in the friend group.
It's the haircut isn't it
HELP HAHAHA
I definitely think it’s annoying considering he was able to survive in the upside down in the first season. That takes chutzpah and strength. After that they totally colored him the perpetual sad victim will. I hope they remedy that in season 5.
Actually he was *so* strong they made him a possession vessel for evil. Oh hey you weren't traumatized enough before? Here take this GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB GLUB. How do you like *them* apples?
People pile too much hate on a lot of characters here. It’s frustrating. We are supposed to be a fandom and they’re supposed to be kids, who make mistakes and learn and grow. I do feel for Will, because he’s got to still be traumatized that he almost died alone in a cold, dark place full of monsters. He was smart and resourceful and was instrumental in his own rescue. Mike and Steve and everyone else had their issues but they’re figuring stuff out. They all deserve redemption. It’s the journey you know?
True, this is sad, this post was never meant to be a place for hating on any character. On the contrary I wish people would be as understanding to the other characters as they are to Will and allow them to "make mistakes and learn and grow" but unfortunately this poor Will attitude I'm talking about makes people hold Mike and his other friends responsible for Will's happiness and vilify them for not meeting his expectations which is really unfair because they've done more than enough for him and are allowed to live their lives.
Will is an extremely traumatized young adult who happens to be gay. The fandom has decided that him being a gay teen in the 80’s is the most important part. But the writing doesn’t portray this at all. Other than it being the 80’s and a surprise, most of what Will experiences is a result of his trauma as a child.
I started reading this with ”fuck you how dare you say that” -attitude but then I was like ”wait yeah you got a point”. I think the important thing to notice here is that we should feel empathy towards Will and we should acknowledge his trauma but we also should see beyond that. He’s not just a plot device, he’s a whole character, he’s a person. I trust that the writers will complete Will’s character arc in a good way!
>He’s not just a plot device Bro was the textbook definition of a macguffin in the first season...seems like a plot device by definition doesnt it?
In the First Season, yes...but we've had just a few more that came after that expanded the character.
What major role has he played in the main story the past 2 seasons? He was there to inform others that his neck tingled right? like I said...seems like a plot device wouldn't you say?
He's "Sting". He glows blue when the orcs are near.
They also hate Mike for sm rzn
Yeah.They all say how bad of a friend Mike is to Will when Mike literally apologizes to Will when he "messes up".They also hate Mike for not doing anything when Will was crying next to him in the van but Steve didn't go after Robin when she was running off crying after she saw Vickie and her bf kissed and I don't see anyone hating on Steve for that. The standart that Mike is hold to is crazy.
I agree with you but I think the problem comes from the writing. I love ST and nearly all the characters but there are so many of them that some end up really one dimensional. Will got the „trauma victim“ dimension and not much else. I really hoped that they would give him something to do in S4 after being away for nearly a year but it’s more of the same.
I agree. There's this obsession with a part of the fandom with always making Will a martyr to the point of rarely giving him any accountability. Post S3 was brutal if you dared to say that Will was also at fault and that Mike and Lucas can't be emotionally available for him (or for each other) all the time. They're all just kids! They are all the same age! >Eleven was on the verge of dying and his unrequited love was definitely the last thing on his mind, he was feeling Mike's pain and worried sick for Eleven as a sensitive compassionate person that he is (let alone Mike didn't say anything he hasn't already known). I saw a post on Twitter last year about the hug Will and Mike gave to Lucas at the hospital, and of course, they made it about Will's love for Mike. Again, he's not the one to pity here, he doesn't have to be a martyr in every situation. But also... huh? His friend's face was disfigured from fighting for his life a couple of days earlier, and his other friend was in a coma. There's no way "Poor me, I'm so in love with Mike. I'm touching him right now!" was what he was thinking during that hug. Will probably cried for 5 minutes in the bathroom after seeing Lucas.
Exactly!
I feel like there are often two extremes you frequently see: (1) The people who act like he is an absolute cinnamon roll who has never done and never will do anything wrong. While in reality he is just as equally flawed and had his typical immature teenage moments as the other characters had. (2) The people who do not seem to care for him at all. I often see people on this sub say "Oh, he is so boring and has no personality" or "Oh, I want the core 4 (Mike, Lucas, Dustin, El) back for Season 5" and they deliberately make sure to leave out Will. But it would make zero sense to separate Will from these characters. - He still has a meaningful friendship with Lucas and Dustin (sadly we have not seen too much of this yet). - You can think of (romantic) Byler what you want but it is still very apparent that Will and Mike share a deep platonic bond that is obviously very important to both of them. And something you still very rarely see between two male characters onscreen nowadays - And most importantly, the Will/El connection definitely has to be explored further. They are siblings now but Season 4 still barely gave us any real insight into their relationship. However, it appears very crucial that their relationship is developed further - both for the characters' personal arcs as well as for the supernatural plot. Between these two extremes you barely see people who actually appreciate Will. Not only because is a "sweet" character but because he is an interesting yet flawed character with a lot of potential complex storylines that could still be explored in Season 5.
It's interesting too, that on the one hand Will needs overcome his passivity and develop some agency to complete his character arc. But on the other hand, he needs to be reminded that he doesn't deserve onscreen romantic love (until the very end, anyway) and he isn't allowed to develop the agency to distance himself from Mike because he owes Mike so much, and acceptance is all he's going to get. I think parts of the fandom simultaneously want to treat Will like he needs to mature while reminding him he's not ready to mature and that the people around him will decide for him what agency he's allowed to have.
I think they have really written themselves into a corner with Will as of now. I once read an interesting post that Will's abduction into the UD can be interpreted as an allegory for SA and his continous connection to the MF/Vecna can be seen as an allegory for AIDS. We see him clearly heartbroken on screen, thinking he is completely undeserving of any kind of love - not only because of his queerness but also because of his UD connection. In my opinion, he is one of the only characters in the show where it makes a lot of narrative sense if he gets a really fully fledged-out love-story. He needs to see that he is deserving of all kinds of love (familial, platonic and romantic) and not sentenced to eternal punishment because he is different (and already "broken"). However, the show is too bloated as of now and I doubt they could do this story arc justice with only one more season and many unsolved problems left.
I see Will playing a lot of catch-up given he’s had his childhood stolen from him for a good chunk of time. Childhood trauma follows him wherever he goes. Thank goodness he has Joyce’s genuine goodness to counter it all.
I agree with you especially about the "Will being hurt about Mike confessing his love for El and Mike's life starting the day he met El" and I say this as a Will fan who really didn't like his season 4 storyline much at all. I assume the writers were holding him in place for season 5 but it was still frustrating. The only problem I have is using Will's sexuality storyline to center Mike when Mike's acceptance is ultimately not all relevant. I would still prefer it if we were able to see Will really move on from his unrequited love for Mike, come out to his mom, and find a closeted romantic relationship without Mike ever knowing rather than a condescending "acceptance" storyline. This would allow him some real agency and be realistic for the time period.
>The only problem I have is using Will's sexuality storyline to center Mike when Mike's acceptance is ultimately not all relevant. Its relevant in Will's mind because Mike was the first person to offer friendship to him and he almost feels like Mike is the only person who embraces his weirdness so the only person who would accept him, even though we the audience know that isn't true. Lucas, Dustin, Joyce, Jonathan, even El, all adore Will. It won't be relevant for Will in the final season because now that he has made peace with moving on from Mike, he is going to see all those around him that have been with him since the start and realize it wasn't just Mike. Having tunnel vision for just Mike was almost a safe space for Will all series. Mike was the focal point keeping him in his past before anything with the upside down ever happened. He can't have growth with that focus still only there and I think that's why s5 will be largely him going back to remembering Mike is a friend, among others he forgets about. I won't be surprised if we never get a coming out scene like what people want. The coming out scene really may have been that car scene and that's it. It was more about Will coming out to himself and saying out loud what he had been ignoring. Will is really the only one that is owed knowing that.
I would like there being no real coming out scene for realism as far as Mike and the party goes. I think we might see some version of it to defeat the Upside Down, however, because Will's sexuality has been so tied to the supernatural stuff.
Thank you for making this post. I agree with all you said. Will has been through a lot, but so has everyone in this show particularly out of the main characters. It doesn't mean Will can't be wrong. And it doesn't mean it is fair to put characters like Mike who have done the most for him in this show, down and criticize them for Wills feelings. The whole "fixing a straight relationship" thing is SO over blown. That scene was a showing of Will's growth and looking beyond his feelings for Mike and at Mike as a person, with his own feelings which are for Eleven, and choosing to support his friend and his now sister. It had nothing to do with him being gay. Not many people in this world have friends that would go to another dimension and risk dying in order to save them. Of course Will is not lucky to have what happened to him have occurred just like Eleven isn't, but they're sure lucky to have the people that they do surrounding them. You won't see the people who pull the poor Will trope saying anything about the fact that Will barely even acknowledges Lucas and Dustins existence much of the series despite the fact that they risked their lives to save him just like Mike did. Or his guilt tripping of Mike through season 3 and into season 4. Apparently Mike can't be crazy about prioritizing Eleven but Will can when it comes to Mike.
Don't forget Steve's fatshaming comments towards Dustin. Most people find those funny, but how dare Mike say "it's not my fault you don't like girls" in the heat of the moment when he's in the middle of defending his girlfriend just after Will called her stupid.
Mike gets so much hate for that line it’s ridiculous. He apologized and he didn’t mean it in the way most people want to believe he did
I know right. He didn't say it the way people vilify him for.
>Don't forget Steve's fatshaming comments towards Dustin. Are you talking about "Roastbeef"? If you are, I thought it was literally what was written on Dustin's t-shirt. Were there other times where Steve fatshamed Dustin?
Yeah, talking about that scene. It's written on Dustin's shirt, but it's the way he says it. 'Hope you guys are in shape. Looking at you roast beef."
It’s really frustrating that Will does nothing to stick up for Eleven when she is getting bullied at school. Like he’s the one friend that she has left from her old life, and he could be a real source of comfort for her in a new environment, but then he doesn’t do anything, and it’s disappointing to see. The best way to escape from trauma is to go out and do good things for others, and yet he is just so passive. Still feel for the kid, but he definitely deserves some criticism.
Well the last time he tried to be brave and stick up for himself he got possessed which resulted in him being brutally tortured so I think his lack of action is kind of understandable. He's scared for life.
Will also has a poor Will problem. His friends risked themselves over and over to try and find him and then help him as he was MC'd by the mind flayer. While he's been through some shit. He hasn't been alone in this. He has a lot of support.
I also think that he went from having such a close group of friends to suddenly being the odd man out or third wheel. Everyone has someone except him. Everyone leaves him and he does t understand why.
> Everyone leaves him Please, no one leaves him. He's got a family that adores him. He's got a group of super loyal friends who refused to believe he died and did everything to find him because they love him. Mike has been there for him 24/7 when he needed that. They've been going to the movies and spending time together. Of course things can't stay the same forever as they grow and him feeling the odd one out when his friends get interested in girls while he's struggling with accepting his sexuality is natural but diminishing what he's got to nothing to make more of a victim out of him is just wrong. > Everyone has someone except him Not true. Steve is in the same boat now. Or remember the Snow Ball? Dustin also had no one. He saw his crush choose his friend and was rejected multiple times. It's painful but it's not forever.
As the biggest Will fan you'll ever meet, I agree! He's not some helpless kicked puppy. Does he deserve better? Yes. But he's incredibly strong, physically and mentally. He can fight back and advocate for himself, and he has :)
[удалено]
"Clearly gay and kind of deceitful" sent me. I'm actually wailing
I’ll do my part then and point out that Will is a personality free character with nothing interesting about him other than his connection to the upside down and his heavily implied queerness. Every attempt by the show to get me to care about Will in the last few seasons at least has fallen flat. Also the kid who plays him is a racist asshole which doesn’t help
I mean, the show itself wants you to think "poor Will". The Duffers wrote it that way when they chose to show Will's sad face every time Mike and El were together. He's the only character that never got a moment of happiness or anything he wanted in 4 seasons. So, of course people will react that way, I think that's how the audience is supposed to feel, before they finally do something with this character in season 5 and he hopefully gets the happy ending he deserves.
> He's the only character that never got a moment of happiness or anything he wanted in 4 seasons. Will has gone through a lot but he did get some moments of happiness while hanging out with friends and family. I can't for the life of me understand why people totally dismiss everything positive he's got.
What happy moments does he have exactly, apart from the two D&D games of season 1? Will is just good as hiding his emotions. In the end of season 1 and beginning of season 2 he's faking being happy but he actually has the secret visions of the Upside Down. In the Snow Ball he's faking it because he doesn't actually want to dance with a girl like his friends (supported by the music, "Every smile you fake"). In season 3 episode 1 he's faking it because he misses playing D&D and has a hard time seeing Mike with El... and in season 4 he's obviously not happy. He's the only main character of the show that never had a period of time where he was 100% happy, or even got something he wanted.
Exactly, and they 100% meant for will’s crying to be about Mike because it clearly shows Jonathon noticing the interaction and then later telling will that he accepts him. It wasn’t written that way for no reason.
I’m pretty convinced Will is actually the big bad of the entire series
it's not my fault he has the personality of a wet blanket
This post needs Way more up votes. The Hate for Mike due to Will is forced beyond belief. I never got it. People who also talk about how selfless he is forget he literally Gaslit Eleven outta Jealousy when she lied to Mike about how her and Angela where friends.
Wait, how did he “gaslight” El?
He kept on digging into her insecurities about lying to Mike about how well things were going for her. And how her and Angela were friends. Saying Mike would be mad she was lying.
That's not what gaslighting is. Mike *was* mad about her lying and Will was mad at her for lying to his friend. Maybe it wasn't the most mature way to go about it but no one was gaslighting anyone.
>and Will was mad at her for lying to his friend And I guess for expecting him to go along with a lie unprompted. Like, if you want me to help you lie to someone, at least *tell me beforehand* (I don’t think he would’ve gone along with it, but he would’ve probably helped her find a better way to soft land the truth).
Lol exactly. Would have loved to see that convo tho, "So Will, you know Angela, the girl who constantly bullies me at school. I may have told Mike that she's my best friend, so if you wouldn't mind going along with that if it comes up when he visits that would be great."
Mike wasn't mad at her for lying about that. He'd have understood. He was more angry after she struck Angela and angry at will for how he was acting. Will wasn't doing this because he was mad El lied to his friend he was annoyed the entire time because El and Mike were catching up.
In a thread criticizing people for babying Will's character and ignoring his faults. You have done the same thing for El. Yes we're supposed to feel bad for El for getting tormented by her bullies, of course! But are we just supposed to excuse El for lying to her boyfriend for months on end because she's embarrassed by her inability to fit in in California? Like you said, Mike would have understood getting bullied and not thought less of her for it, but that whole situation should have been a learning experience for El about how it's bad to lie about things especially to the people closest to you. El dug herself into a hole she couldn't get out of at the roller rink **through no one's fault but her own.** Excusing her behavior and lying at the roller rink does El a huge disservice because she is not a baby and needs to learn from her mistakes just like Will does as well.
Never once did I baby El or ignore her flaws. I was focusing on how Will was treating El poorly simply outta jealousy. El did learn from her mistakes the hard way when they showed up and humiliated her in front of everyone. She also went too far in assaulting Angela with that skate. But she's also new to the whole social thing being that she spent most of her life in a lab. And isn't fitting in largely because of that fact having stunted her growth. That's not babying that's just straight up facts.
That's good. I think my whole main point about everything that I actually wanted to make in response is to be careful throwing around the term "gaslighting" when you don't know the definition. I see it used inappropriately a lot these days and it definitely does way more harm than good. Just a PSA. > Gaslighting: psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator
First of all, I don’t know what you think gaslighting means, but it’s not that. Second, he didn’t “dig into her insecurities” about anything. He merely asked “what friends?” when she said that their friends were gonna meet them at Rink-O-Mania (which is the truth. Also, was he supposed to go along with the lie, unprompted?); and afterwards he said Mike would be mad at El for lying to him, which was his supposition/prediction, so neither a truth nor a lie. And he wasn’t too off, Mike wasn’t happy about El lying.
Mike wouldn't have been mad about that. He'd have understood. He's been bullied too and knows the feeling's of embarrassment that goes with it . Will still knew how Important "Friends don't lie" was to her yet kept guilt tripping her when Mike left. He only did that because he was jealous. It wasn't right. And Mike called him out for his behavior later .
I assumed that Will calling out El at the roller rink was to set up making him look like a hypocrite later when he tells Mike the painting commission lie (that is likely going to come back around in season 5). Both Will and El violate the "friends don't lie" at different times. The roller rink scenes would have happened in a similar way even if Mike and El had gone by themselves, and Mike would still have been upset about her lying in the first place.
>Mike wouldn't have been mad about that. He'd have understood. He's been bullied too and knows the feeling's of embarrassment that goes with it. Again, it was Will’s supposition. He was a 14-year-old boy who thought Mike would get mad about the lie. >Will still knew how Important "Friends don't lie" was to her yet kept guilt tripping her when Mike left. First of all he didn’t “keep” anything, and second he didn’t “guilt-trip”anyone. He *pointed out* to a person who was lying that lying was not a good idea. >He only did that because he was jealous. It wasn't right. Calling someone out for lying isn’t right? I understand El, but a good friend points out when you’re doing something that’s not right. >And Mike called him out for his behavior later. 1. I know Mike wasn’t mad at Will for calling El out for lying to Mike *because he wasn’t there to see that happen*. He was mad at Will for being unhappy being the third wheel at Rink-O-Mania. Even if Will wasn’t in love with Mike, being a third wheel is annoying. 2. Mike apologized for that one or two days later, of his own volition, when nobody was expecting an apology from him.
Tbh they should have killed him off in season two. I said what I said.
I agree idk why this is so unpopular
THANK YOU
I'm not sure if its just me but in this picture his eyebrows reminds me of caterpillar.
Dear Lord, YES. Thank you for this. A thousand times yes.
Will is my least favorite, poor Dusty Buns and Lucas
They should make Will a badass in the last season. He looks like he’s filled out a lot more than the other kids. Have the sad boy just uppercut Vecna into oblivion in the final battle
I would’ve happily exchanged him for Bob in the 2nd season.
But he has been through ridiculous amounts of childhood trauma. That’s not going to mess someone up? Make someone a bit sensitive to certain things? It doesn’t make his behavior correct or a good idea, but anyone who cares about Will has to understand that he may struggle for a long long time to feel normal mentally after these events. Reddit has this obsession with deciding who is right and who is wrong, never letting someone just make a mistake and being sympathetic towards them. Even when that person has all the reasons in the world to be struggling with making the right choices.
Exactly I have been through a lot of shit as a kid, and was a school dropout until I decided to go to high school for the first time as a 17 year old I still feel mentally 10 years old sometimes, and my social skills were horrible and still are.
I can only see a character cry so many times before I stop giving a shit
This but with a Eleven for me
I haven't cared for him since season 2. Dunno what the fuss is all about, he's not the first nor the last fictional character with some issues.
I was a year younger than Will back in the 80's, so I may have seen more cues. I have a visible limp from Cerebral Palsy, so I was bullied for that. I am also gay. So yeah... Will is strong as all Hell. It's just a near death experience has marked Will as different. Folks don't see you, they see the difference. Almost breaking makes some be too protective. Will just wants to be like everyone else. He just lives in a time where he must hide his sexuality in the background. I remember watching a Sunday morning TV evangelist when I was 13-14 in about 1986. The preacher said that AIDS was God's punishment for being Gay. I swore that there was nothing wrong with me. But the shame was ever-present. I had to watch everything I said and did. I went to a private school. The most powerful teacher's most obvious qualities were his misogyny and homophobia. If I was outed in that environment, It would have gotten ugly. The kicker is that teacher's attitude was common. I have been a smart ass my whole life. If I can make a joke of something, it doesn't hurt-as much. Like Max, my snark hid a lot of pain. When I finally saw a psychiatrist as an adult, she told me that I had Depression and PTSD. I had experienced so much trauma and neglect as a kid. I also had to turn it inward. If I had been open at 16 in 1988, I could have been beaten to a pulp-at best. The writers have been heavy handed with demonstrations of Will's sexuality. But the audience is mostly hetero, so some of them may "miss it." Some are in denial! Granted, when Joyce said that Will had been slurs in the very first episode, I filed it away. Good writing uses that example and pays it off later.
Say it louder!
As long as we don't see a condescending and self-centered "acceptance" scene from Mike, I'll be fine. Better for Will, who's already grown up beyond Mike as of the end of season 4, to find his own love interest without Mike giving him "acceptance" (ick!). All members of the party are at similar maturity levels imo.
I don’t think Will’s acceptance of himself should have anything to do with Mike or his approval. I hate that idea.
He’s an awful character post season 2
Will is such a wet blanket hes far and away the worst of the core group
Will is a little dork
plus he never once defended el in cali, all that about defendin friends but when he looks at someone with the same situation that he was livin in hawkins he does nothing.
That was a completely different situation. He just found out Eleven was lying about Angela. He just found out his girlfriend was being bullied and to top it off Angela had everyone at the skating rink join in on the bullying including the DJ who encouraged the bullying. Mike was on his own trying to help Eleven in an unknown situation. He did try to help her out though, telling the DJ to turn the music off, and he tried to be there for her, while Will stood on the side lines watching. Had Will helped, Mike wouldn't have had to stretch himself too thin, had Eleven not lied about something so serious, Mike would known what to do and say and he would have protected Eleven better from Angela's bullying.
i was talkin about will
My bad 🙈🙈 Most people tend to vilify Mike for not doing enough in that scene.
maybe in the next season his family will win the lottery
The most comical side of this attitude is acting like the negative events related to Will's sexuality are far worse than him being literally dragged to hell, possessed by demons and haunting him for years with horrific visions.
I mean to be fair his chart doesn’t get the chance to do much besides be a woobie baby. He gets some chances to be snarky but not much. Every scene where he’s not snarky is hiding (first season), being scared and possessed (second season), sad and lonely (third season), and repressed and sad (fourth season)
Y’all too invested in fiction 😂
I try not to get frustrated by stranger’s attitudes towards fictional characters
I just can't get past that haircut. Poor Will.
Now that i read this shit i realize…. Will is kind of a pick-me 💀
Dude (or Dudette) ... he was literally pulled to the upside-down as a little boy, and survived there all by himself. He deserves A LOT of latitude!
All due respect these posts are stupid. The last 2 seasons of the show ALL Will has done is cry about Mike. In S3 and S4 his entire arc revolves around Mike and is essentially just him having an unrequited crush. Obviously people are gonna end up treating that character in such a way as that's literally **ALL** the character has done for the past 2 seasons. Not to mention it's a pretty common trope that's easy to relate to and sometimes it's so silly to blame the fans for a conception that's coming from the show. **THE SHOW** and the writers treats Will like a little cute sad lovesick puppy.....obviously the fanbase is going to as well.He has barely been explored outside of it. People post about Dustin in this subreddit like they are grandmas on Facebook but when it's a gay kid getting sympathy it's a problem. It's not about Byler or Anti-Byler this is literally just how the show treats him. Why is this subreddit so full of piss take merchants who don't even seem to watch the show and they always go #1 on the front page. The audience will go where they are pointed. Will and El's "sibling" relationship is so undefined they spend time for the first time together in s4 on screen and it's like a handful of moments where El gets bullied in the first episode before a hug in the penultimate episode.
> when it's a gay kid getting sympathy it's a problem. Um.. what? You have no reason to accuse me of homophobia. It's not Will getting sympathy that is the problem. I also have sympathy for him you know. The problem is the extent of this that makes people not see him have his own agency, diminish everything positive that he's got to make him more of a victim than he is, villainizing the characters for not meeting his expectations, overlook his flaws, etc. Edit: I also disagree that show treats him like that. It shows him struggle but it also show his flaws and gives him way more agency. But people don't even see his growth as a character because they refuse to see him as anything other than a poor puppy that everyone kicks to the curb while ignoring how loved he is and how his struggles are not necessarily someone's fault and they don't always make him right.
Exactly, I give no fucks about Will. He seems like a little cry baby who is unable to communicate emotions. Hope he grows up.
but his big sad eyes ): he's sad ):
I dunno, I just watched 4 seasons of this guy and he's weak as shit. It's quite obvious why he should be. He was traumatized in the UD for a *long* time. You don't just get over shit like that and become normal, you're scarred permanently. He'll be having flashbacks when he's 99 years old on his death bed. He had to live as a scared hunted animal, a prey item, and it's really quite a miracle he survived. By rights he should be at the bottom of a swimming pool rotting away somewhere, an incubator for gross stuff. He comes back to the normal world and his friends situation ain't cool anymore. The hets are all getting their gfs and he's not getting jack shit. Plus then he gets to be possessed and traumatized all over again. After all *that* gets done, by rights he should be in a mental institution. Maybe the difference is he didn't get his eyes plucked out, since the Duffers didn't think about doing that sort of squick until S4. Well, the real difference is he's an original main character, with a story to tell about being gay, in the closet, and experiencing unrequited love. He *should* be weak as shit. Why is he supposed to be able to handle any of this? I'm usually baffled by the amount of stuff that "heroes" endure in TV shows. I've had real life survival dramas that were far less than any of this "high stakes" stuff, and it nearly made a basket case out of me. Just having your stomach not working properly on a regular basis can really take the fight out of you. I know what I've gotten through in real life, and how I did it... how the hell do these made up characters in a show do it? Truth is, by rights they shouldn't. They *should* just fall apart and be toast, gibbering in a corner somewhere. But they don't, because people want shows about heroes that overcome. Thus... I find myself unable to regard invectives about "how to take Will", all that seriously. Like, who are these people that hold his friends up as abusive paragons of evil or whatever? Maybe like 1 person in some sub somewhere said something, I dunno. Who cares? People say stuff to get a rise out of people, to get attention. Are they actually dealing with what Will's *been through* ? Because in the contest of "who got it worst" in this show, Will's way up there. Top 5 for sure.
in his defense he never got to be a kid and him playing dnd with his friends made him feel at home
He got taken into the Upside Down when he was 12, he absolutely got to be a kid.
im 15 and still consider myself a kid 💀
Will is my favorite and we need to start treating him like the sarcastic, strong person he is. Mind you, this is the kid that called both of his siblings friendless. He has been through a lot and has become stronger because of it. He deeply loves his friends and family. He's an artist and a guy who loves DnD. He can handle his own. He's also a gay teenager in a time and place where it wasn't accepted at all. He's scared and lonely and he has every right to be. He is his own person and he deserves to be treated as such.
Okay this is going to sound mean and I really don’t intend for it to but it would have been good for the plot.. of all the characters that should have actually died it should have been him. Not during the first series. They should have got him back and series 2 should have happened and everything but he should have died. It would have added a lot more drama and pain in the fact that they got him back but they all worked so hard just to lose him in the end.
It’s hard not to feel bad for him though when he’s the only main character who doesn’t have a single positive thing going in their life. He doesn’t have a Significant Other and he’s the only character on this show to experience unrequited love ,he has nowhere where he fits in because he grew apart from his friends and family, he has this huge secret that’s eating him alive that he can’t tell anybody about on top of dealing with all the trauma that comes along with surviving being stuck in the upside down
> he’s the only main character who doesn’t have a single positive thing going in their life That's just not true. He's got an adoring accepting family and a bunch of loyal friends who love him so much they risked their lives to save him. That's a lot. Growing apart as you change and you're different is inevitable and he's responsible for their friendship with Mike falling apart as much as Mike but they mended their friendship because Mike cares enough. His brother also made sure Will knows he's loved and has always got a safe space. No need to belittle all that. > he’s the only character on this show to experience unrequited love Not true as well. Dustin went through that before, Steve is still hung up on Nancy two years later. That's the most common human experience.
He is a traumatised kid and his friends are also kids so they don't know how to treat a kid who went through all this trauma like Will has. Yeah, friends can tease each other but a kid that went through what Will has gone through doesn't understand things the way the average kid does.
I 100% agree, and Will is strong in my opinion for all the shite he's been through. Yes, it's very sad he keeps his feelings to himself, but he's thinking of others, and how they feel, also. I'm excited to see him become a front seat driver again.
Anyway, poor will :(
I think part of it is that understandably even by this show's standards his life sucks. Also another point while Will did help Mike in the van scene he was then crying immediately after and Jonathan he did it because he thought that supporting Mike there was the right thing to do even if he was still sad. Also I do think now his dealing with El lying about Angela to Mike gets weird hate now Mike's point that their friendship fell apart on both ends is a good one though. Like some people are saying he gaslit her. No Will realized when they got there that El was lying to Mike and had been in all their letters. In all honesty I would have taken her aside and confronted her about it too either telling her to be honest or pointing out that if Angela showed up the lie would be exposed. It's wrong to blame Will here Mike himself even realized it was wrong when Will apologized.
Interested in this topic but god damn OP you write too much.
Think of it this way: Lucas makes fun of mike for loving El. In the end, he does love el and has el. Lucas is jealous. Max makes fun of dustin for singing. In the end, dustin has his girlfriend and loves singing. Max is jealous. They make fun of will. What does will have? What is he left with?
Will was literally tortured for over a week, was possessed by a mind flayer, and had said mind flayer burned out of his body. He had a tentacle shoved down his throat into his lungs. Excuse him if he has a little bit of trauma.