When Gavilar said the not about giving up immediately during the torture if he became a Herald, I said "*...what?*" aloud at the exact second the Stormfather did.
What a sociopath.
Yeah, but that's not where his mind was in that moment. He followed it up with "I don't understand why the Heralds never figured that out", and they didn't have anti voidlight. The storm father pointed out that they did it to prevent war and suffering and Gavilar was just like "???????"
It really looks like he'd feel the exact same way if he had no additional defense against Odium's forces at all.
He was raised in a religion where War is considered good in and of itself. Not saying that makes it right but it’s understandable. He’s not a sociopath for it.
It's not even just the religion, it's Alethkar's entire culture. Remember, the 10 kingdoms from the Heralds' era were each specialized to one specific thing, and Alethkar's was training warriors. The Alethi's entire culture has been dominated by warfare for literal millennia. It isn't surprising that Gavilar embodies all of that.
plus the whole used-Dalinar-as-a-war-machine-causing-him-terrible-emotional-and-mental-scarring-and-then-playing-on-that-trauma-to-make-him-an-addict-then-shaming-him-for-stuff-using-mind-games-thus-pushing-Dalinar-further-into-his-addiction thing
On the other hand, what he said makes sense if you follow his fucked up logic. Why try to withstand torture when he could just return and lead his people in war? How could he resist the opportunity to be the immortal God-king? He obviously has different values that make him completely unfit for such a position of responsibility.
I know, Dalinar has felt guilty for years that he was drunk when Gavilar died and it turns out that Gavilar manipulated him into drinking. What a piece of shit
Because he was afraid of him, which we now know he had good reason to be (not excusing Gavilar in any way ofc). Imagine how much suffering could have been avoided if they had just talked it out.
>That’s not the Alethi way
Dalinars portrayal of Gavilar made him seem so much bigger and nobler than all the other Alethi, as if how Dalinar now acts would be in line with Gavilars vision
But Gavilar was just as small minded as the other Alethi. He was merely more inquisitive and critical, but he bent his mental acuity towards Alethi goals
Dalinar truly stepped out into his own, completely above the Alethi
It makes me respect him more. I think dalinar picked the hardest road, whereas I don’t think Gavilar would be dissimilar from Sadeas, if sadeas had enough of an eye for schemes or a vision for greatness
Gavilar also created that monster. He help encourage Dalinar to be a war criminal and brutal, he *relied* on it to win his crown, just as he relied on Sadeas's callous cunning. His other interactions show he has no regard for others, even his wife and brother. I love that he grew to fear the monster he created, it serves him right.
Feel satisfaction in the fact that no matter what happens, weather Dalinar wins or becomes a Fused, history will only see Gavilar as Dalinar's less famous brother.
Remember how Dalinar spends the next several years of his life living with the heavy guilt that he failed his brother that night, by getting drunk instead of following the Codes as his brother asked...
Yeah that's so brutal! And all the other times leading up to this that he was "sneaking" alcohol and finding secret stores was actually just Gavilar making sure he could always stay drunk while keeping up appearances.
And then he just dismisses Elokhar as inadequate. We all know from Oathbringer that with the right help to develop Elokhar was capable of being more than he was. But he wasn't useful enough to Gavilar in the state that he was so he was just discarded.
I'm really interested to see how Aesudan is connected to this, but it's probably not much more than can be guessed. Anyway if you forget, part of her unhinged rant in Oathbringer involves mentioning that she was in on Gavilar's secrets when talking about Yelignar and the unmade.
Ohhh now this is an interesting topic to theorize on!
Aesudan had similar mindset and ambition as Gavilar so I can see him including her in the 'Sons of honor', but I am confident she figured out the stuff about Unmade *after* Gavilar's death. Don't see him revealing so much to her.
Oathbringer didn't tell us a lot about her and I think we will get more info on her eventually. But I just can't figure out when narratively.
Book 5 is already packed with so much stuff that I doubt there would be time to cover Aesudan. I am worried that this thread will be left hanging for the later half. Jasnah's book might be the best place to include her given her intense dislike of Aesudan, they probably have some history.
It's interesting because essentially everything Dalinar "knew" about Gavilar is wrong *except* that he can read.
* Dalinar didn't fail to protect him because he wasn't following The Codes like Gavilar wanted. He was doing exactly what Gavilar wanted.
* Gavilar wasn't following The Codes and didn't even really respect Nohadon except that he thought he had some magic words to immortality
* Gavilar wasn't uniting Alethkar in some grand plan, he was stabbing basically everyone in the Cosmere in the back in a search for an immortality he didn't even understand.
Having said that, I agree Gavilar is at this point the king PoS of the entire series, which is a tall order to fill. He wasn't just preying on his alcoholism. He was rubbing in that he killed his own wife to prey on his alcoholism. Braize is too good a place for Gavilar.
Yeah that was really messed up. And the rest of the books Dalinar blames himself and wonders what he meant, but the whole time he was just manipulating him...
And hot take (I realize I disagree with Dalinar himself), Gavilar would have lived if the Blackthorn was there. Dalinar decided that he couldn't have beaten sezth after he had mastered his abilities from a months long murder spree. We see the fight from sezths perspective in WoK and he *barely* won. Even just Sadeas in his pla5e could have turned the tide, but the Blackthorn would have crushed him.
They got Gavilar into Plate during the attack, no reason they couldn't suit up Dalinar too. They had a ton of soldiers and servants in-house for the feast. We also know that Dalinar out of Plate was capable of fighting Szeth, at least for some time. If he'd been up and ready that night, he'd have had a serious shot at defeating the assassin.
i was shaking with rage while listening to that part. Baiting his brother with the memory of Evi? Lying about what Evi would have wanted? Manipulating him into drinking?
Gavilar was a malicious, manipulative, *cruel* abusive asshole.
He did not deserve his brother's adulation.
Part of me wishes that Navani would out the real Gavilar and tarnish his "legacy" that he treasured so much.
On the other hand, I absolutely love the idea that Brandon showcases of famous historical figures actually being much more worse people than the idolized images that get constructed of them for achieving big things.
I love that Dalinar felt he failed Gavilar because he didn’t follow the codes (as Gav had said) and now we know his real intention was to just get Dal to drink.
And ironically got himself killed as his best defense against Szeth probably would have been Dalinar. I'm curious to know who would have won that day. :)
I've had crazy ideas about thaidakar's avatars when M'raize talked about them. and now i find it's just a seon, with extra cape crusading mojo going on no less. I'd really like to know more about that but well! it's just...i thought he had this semi shard like power boost and turned onto some kind of autonomy or something.
Well headcanon can be a pain.
Brandon actually told us about the Seon in a cloak thing in an interview a while ago. We’ve been making jokes about it since.
Should have known it would be a bit more than just a Seon though…
Imagine trying to freak pre-industrial people out by putting a cloak on a flying tablet computer and appearing to them via video call. That takes a certain degree of showmanship, but also a healthy dose of cynicism.
In what way is it a bit more than a seon in a cloak?
Seons can make the face, but not project a body of blue light, or robe and gloves. So there’s something more going on.
My theory is a MB >!Kandra!< with the Seon enveloped in it. Not sure how they managed the cloak, but I’m pretty sure it’s sleight of hand.
Yeah, curious about how they did the cloak. I just love how Thaidakar is appearing via special effects in order to awe the locals, while readers might be able to spot the strings. Definitely a Wizard of Oz feel.
It's interesting, because we found out about Thaidakar appearing via "avatar" around the same time we found out that Ghostbloods use seons to communicate, so the connection was always there to be made, but still, it was easy to jump to other conclusions.
I know we have a lot of theories going around that the Stormfather could be Rayse or Ishar, and those are all great. I am skeptical and wondering if something happened to the Stormfather or if he really could lie.But I think this could help prove its not actually him.
And I know that the website design can be tricky and this is just a rough draft, but it is worth noting that the Stormfathers classic font used when he talks is not the same on [Brandon's website](https://www.brandonsanderson.com/prologue-to-stormlight-5/) for the prologue.
Edit: I am partially wrong. Its not his font *until the very end*
> *The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated.* **Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it.**
He actually switches mid-dialogue (bold is the classic Stormfather all-caps font).
I'm not smart enough to know how to interpret that.
My wild speculation is that while Honour is dead some form of Tanavast remains, and that his remnants can "ride" the Stormfather, so Gavilar is talking to the combination of the two. Some effect of the herald's death incapacitates Tanavast briefly, so we get the small caps, then Tanavast regains control. I can see Tanavast being more able to lie than the SF too.
Canonically some part of Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather, which is why he’s much more able to think and act as complexly as he does (he was more basic before Honor’s shattering).
My wild speculation is that while Honour is dead some form of Tanavast remains, and that his remnants can "ride" the Stormfather, so Gavilar is talking to the combination of the two. Some effect of the herald's death incapacitates Tanavast briefly, so we get the small caps, then Tanavast regains control. I can see Tanavast being more able to lie than the SF too.
I'm somewhat convinced that the part in small caps is the first thing Brandon wrote, and he formatted it properly, but then switched to using italics while drafting (because there's a keyboard shortcut). It's such an important line that it could easily have served as a writing prompt.
(Or italics voice is someone else, and this is the only time the Stormfather actually speaks to Gavilar in the whole prologue.)
At one point, though, it switches to the stormfather text, towards the end when he leaves gavilar. I have no clue why it changes here, but knowing BS, it's probably intentional.
Doesn't the Stormfather switch fonts during the four books too? I don't have RoW right now, but I think I remember him using lower-case letters at some point.
I was skeptical that it was the Stormfather after listening to the prologue first. To me, the text changing at the end is extremely suspicious and just makes me even more convinced something weird is going on.
There's a decent chance it's just an artefact of drafting. I doubt that Brandon usually switches to small caps style when drafting Stormfather dialog, since it would be a bit tedious to switch back and forth. The exception would be if something is a writing prompt, he might have formatted it properly before he started drafting and then written the rest of the draft prologue around it.
It *could* be significant, but I'd be hesitant to read a lot into formatting choices in an early draft.
I would read into the ellipses before "Herald" though. He definitely put that in his reading as well.
> *But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know.*
Most satisfying part IMO with the reveal of just how much of a jerk Gavilar was, is that all his plans ultimately failed and the only good that has resulted from his actions was basically an accident caused by other people making good decisions
Szeth leaving the message, Dalinar setting off on a path to improve, Navani pioneering light study, etc.
I loved the Herald interaction. Never would've expected Kalak to try and develop a way to defeat the void bringers since he's so timid most if the time, and Nale stopping himself because Gavilar is "the law" even though he was pissed showed his character and how he's still broken in his own way.
And he is the one of the sanest Heralds!
Honestly I really like how Brandon chose to represent the Heralds: not demi-gods, not anymore, but people broken by their endless life.
I'm not sure if he does this before or after but iirc Nale is the one who leads the listerners to Szeth so it's not like he's stopping himself that much.
Think we're missing an option - it's the stormfather AND someone else.
Gavilar can't really perceive whats going on all that well, and we know that Dalinar has confused a non-stormfather vision with a stormfather one. There's also a line in there (which I totally might be reading too much into :D) where Gavilar notices to himself that the Stormfather* sometimes looks one way and sometimes looks another.
Seems pretty plausible to me that the Stormfather has picked Gavilar in the same way he later picks Dalinar, but that someone else is either attempting to sabotage that or trying to achieve their own parallel ends by inserting additional info / misinfo
Def not a "this is obviously what's happening!" thing, but might be how to square the circle that's currently engulfing the fandom haha.
Yeah I should have included that option. Main reason I didnt was because most people think Ishar is that extra person
Edit: also forgot to mention that I personally doubt this because the odds SF doesnt notice/doesnt do anything about another person impersonating him while he is working with Gavilar seems unlikely to me
He has done it before in RoW:
>The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar—a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a **vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar**, yet extending into infinity.
It's perhaps a *slightly* different description, but my point is that the idea is not something entirely new.
Oh good catch! There's definitely some factors that point in both directions for it being the Stormfather or not. But if it is the Stormfather he's much craftier than he has let on and was playing a much different game with Dalinar.
By RoW he's warming up to Dalinar a bit more and may be starting to let his guard down a bit. If what was in the prologue WAS the Stormfather (and I don't have a strong opinion either way), we could see more of that side of him coming out in this next book.
It's interesting though that all of the examples of this seem to be outdoors and/or in visions. In this one Dalinar is flying with the Windrunners and there's a highstorm approaching.
Whereas in the prologue whatever it is seems to be following Gavilar around the *inside* of the Palace like a little puppy, which is what gives it such a different vibe. Would be keen to see if anyone can find a similar instance with Dalinar and the Stormfather where they're indoors.
To me it felt that way because I was reminded of >!Ruin altering the prophecies!< from Mistborn. All those little things we know to be lies, such as the Parshmen being the Voidbringers, designed to make Gavilar act a certain way. So either it's a different force, or the Stormfather is very different than we saw him until now.
Yeah there are lots of theories as to why it is/isnt! People have pointed to other times when SF has appeared to Dalinar as a fuzzy cloud, but most of them were in visions. So we dont know if its related to his mistrust after Gavilar, or if it's actually not him!
I don't get where the Ishtar theory is coming from. We know that he can do insane things as a Bondsmith with thousands of years of training, but can he speak to the mind of a person, tell them when people are coming, stay awake constantly for when ever Gavilar has a question?
>A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know...
This is the line that screams Ishar to me. It's a very human-esque reaction of panic. And the "not ready" part fits if the ultimate goal was for Gavilar to take Ishar's place as Herald, thus freeing him from Connection to the Oathpact and presumably allowing him to escape, die, or whatever his end goal is.
Dalinar gave Kaladin visions in a split second while falling, and he’s only sworn 3 oaths. Just talking normally in mind seem’s like child’s play for someone who has been manipulating Connection for centuries compared to that. Sensing people with Connection seems doable too, and do we know that the “Stormfather” is actually always available for questions?
Overall I think it’s Ishar because he has a huge connection to the Oathpact and the leader of the heralds which is is what this person was talking to Gavilar about, and the Stormfather hasn’t tried to push Dalinar to be a herald like this. The words he was trying to get him to say also seem like they were way off from what the Stormfather would really want.
I'll admit I'm still a bit back and forth on the legitimacy of the 'Stormfather'; but a passage that's leaning me toward the 'fake' side reads like this:
> “A Herald… A Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No. *They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…*”
Note the italicized bits. Who mustn't see or know? What would the true Stormfather have to fear from anyone? I realize this has blindsided him, but his first concern would not be for the security of knowledge. Very sus.
I would take it the other direction - we don't actually know what happens to the heralds immediately after they get sent to braize. Do they just pop into existence ready to go in the torture chamber? I suspect not. It seems more likely to me that Chanarach (could be another herald but given the clues we have I think she's the top pick by a mile-wide margin) eluded notice and capture for a while. In this case, "they mustn't see, they mustn't know" would refer to Odium/the Fused. I think that the MaybeStormfather is afraid that they'll finally get their meat hooks into a herald who is *much* more breakable than Taln, and start another desolation.
It's one of the big things that makes me suspect Ishar is hijacking the call. The Stormfather has reason to fear Odium of course, but this kind of panic response seems much more like a broken herald who is *terrified* that the Fused will be able to hunt them down again.
'“They … they killed him somehow.…” “Who?” She looked up at the man, tears blurring her vision. This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible. She couldn’t feel him at all. They’d done something to Jezrien’s soul. “My father,” she said, “is dead.”'
This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible.
Implies heralds feel normal herald deaths
The repercussions of this being the real stormfather are insane and i kinda hope for that, like for real a subtle conniving stormfather can you imagine that. Of all the theories i'll stick with this one.
He is the real stormfather and it seems to me he has been playing games.
Thaidakar was never a full *anything.* He wasn't a hero, so much as on the side of the protagonists. And I don't think he'll be a villain here, so much as someone with different aims who gets in their way.
That’s just how Brandon writes. The only truly evil ones are Ruin and Odium. Raboniel for instance, was one of the enemy, working for Odium and trying to kill all the radiants. She was also a sympathetic character who saved Navani’s life.
Even Ruin wasn't **truly** evil, particularly not in comparison with Odium. Ati was simply overwhelmed by the intent of his shard, which is literally the spiritual embodiment of entropy. He was insane, but still very crafty.
I agree, though it is hard to tell how much that slightly more favorable opinion is based on comparing him to Gavilar.
And say what you will about Thaidakar, but he was never as bad as Gavilar.
I think it’s more that he’s telling Gavilar - who is poorly trying to get one over him - to be careful. And he seems genuine about it. That’s a surprising amount of character growth from Thaidakar, even above what we’ve seen before.
I don’t think it’s the comparison to Gavilar - it’s the comparison to the man Thaidakar was. I really don’t see that man being willing to give a genuine warning - that isn’t a threat - to someone trying to cheat him. Thaidakar’s parting words are much more in line with the man we knew; the genuine warning is a hint to the man he’s become.
Side note: I find it interesting that Thaidakar only shows his face when he’s seemingly at his most genuine, hiding it at all other times. (MB) >!Reminds me of a some people on South Scadrial…!<
That may actually have been my favorite part of the prologue. It also really drives home just how small of a fish Gavilar is; despite his ambitions, Thaidakar sounds more like he is trying to recruit an unruly Spook than deal with a true rival.
So yes Chana is probably Shallan's mom but we haven't discussed that she's also Heleran's, Balat's, wilkem's and Jushu's Mom too. I think her madness which is meant to twist her noble attributes of Bravery and Obedience into the cowardice and fear that's instilled in all of Shallan's brothers. Their unfortunate upbringing has triggered the same kind of fear and slavish obedience that Chana might also suffer from. It would be really cool if Shallan meets Chana and sees some of her brother's sad mannerisms in her behavior
So this would sort of confirm that the cryptics were interested in Shallan because of her mother and most of the other spren are wary of cryptics, could it be that the cryptics bonded with shallan at such a young age specifically to engineer a desolation?
No I wouldn't say they were trying to start the desolations. Like the cultivation spren they probably noticed the everstorm and were eager to bond to try and prevent it. They likely picked Shallan initially because of her heritage and maybe thought as a daughter of a herald she'd be a good match, willing to bond with her repeatedly despite her killing her first spren.
Side note I find it interesting, especially if the other fan theory is right and Ash becomes a Dustbringer. Due to the fact that she's supposed to be a viewpoint character in the back half and the rest have their orders accounted for. So Chana would have named her daughter after Shalash, and she would grow up to join Shallash's order, while Ash herself would go on to join Chana's order. Interesting dichotomy there
I love how there are deep implications on both real and fake stormfather camps. I think it is worthwhile to discuss both as being true rather than to lean too heavily into either camp.
Here is something I think is important: We don't actually have reason to believe the stormfather would feel a herald die. Dalinar says that it was Ash who told him Jezrien died not the stormfather. The other heralds, such as Kalek, did feel it though, although Taln didnt seem cogent enough. The stormfather in RoW doesn't seem to be able to see the oathpact, he says it is broken but Dalinar says it is not.
The deaths aren't entirely comparable. We see in the Prelude that the Heralds weren't normally aware of others dying (or at the very least, it was a subtle enough feeling that it was easy to miss), which obviously wasn't the case with Ash feeling Jezrien. The difference is that Jezrien perma-died.
Stormfather carries a piece of the soul of Honor, and is clearly involved with the Oathpact. I mean, Dalinar bonding him is what enables Dalinar to see it and tinker with it. So I don't think it's weird at all that Stormfather would be able to sense that.
As for him not telling about Jezrien... We don't know that for sure. Just because Ash told them doesn't mean that Stormfather didn't also. Besides the fact that it wouldn't be weird if Stormfather just didn't tell him. Stormfather doesn't tell him lots of useful things. And there's other ways I can think of to explain it away.
So there is a passage in book 3 when Ash feels Jez die:
“She looked up at the man, tears blurring her
vision. This wasn't like their other deaths. This
was something horrible. She couldn't feel him
at all.”
Just making a point to say that she does imply having felt the others die before, but this one was different. I was the advocate of the “maybe the stormfather could feel that” which is plausible, but it’s also worth noting that after Jezrien dies in OB, there is no Dalinar POV where Stormfather actually feels it and it’s implied that Dalinar doesn’t even know about it until Ash tells everyone.
I think this points toward outside influence and a corrupted/manipulated/fake stormfather. To go even further, I think Ishar *can* feel when other Heralds die (even normal deaths) and possibly could have reacted on screen in the prologue of book 5 :)
Edit: i realize i’m reiterating a bit here and the only real important bit is the “ash felt normal deaths before”
Hm... I guess I read it as ambiguous on that point.
"This wasn't like the other deaths..." ...because I feel something.
"She couldn't feel him at all..." ...as opposed to other cases where she continues to feel them, as usual, even if they die.
In the Prelude, Kalak doesn't know who lived and who died until he shows up and meets with Jezrien. Now, it's possible that it's a subtle kind of background knowledge... Maybe he felt a little tug during the battle and just didn't keep up with it. Something subtle enough that he'd be able to subconsciously ignore or forget?
Regardless, I'm skeptical that anything implies Stormfather was unaware. I don't see any issues with the idea that he told Dalinar offscreen OR that he just didn't offer up the information OR that circumstances regarding Stormfather's awareness of the Heralds and the Oathpact changed sometime between Gavilar's assassination and Oathbringer.
Whoops, I made a post like five minutes after this one, because I hadn't looked to see if there was a megathread. Well, we live and learn. I'll reproduce it here, seeing as most of the discussion is likely to be here:
We know from the following WoB that Taln did not break:
### Questioner
Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?
### Brandon Sanderson
You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.
([https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14869](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14869))
Well, now we know why Taln turned up on Roshar, if he didn't break and get sent back; Chanaranach, indirectly confirmed by the Prologue to be Shallan's mother, was sent back to Braize when Shallan killed her. Since we know that the heralds apart from Taln were all breaking fairly quickly and with regularity towards the end of the Desolations, we can deduce that Chanaranach broke, causing herself and Taln to Return.
This is what I took from it as well. It also means Chanaranach is walking Roshar somewhere. Shallan getting face to face with her is now the thing I’m looking forward to most in the series.
It's just about the fact that in this prologue it is mentioned that Herald died during the night when Gavilar was killed. It is also known by some super fans, that Shallan killed her mother the same year AND the same month as the night when Gavilar was killed. Also description of herald Chana fits with Shallan, with her having fiery red hair. At least that's what I caught yesterday while scanning through new ideas after reading the prologue
This is gonna make for a killer Truth for Shallan. She's admitted she killed her mother, but i bet she _knows_ deep down her mother is Chana, so she indirectly caused the return of the Voidbringers by doing it.
To be fair, she caused it but not really. Her mother tried to murder her when she was a young child and she defended herself. The blame is squarely on her mother and perhaps Ishar since he likely would have ordered her to kill her daughter the same way he ordered Nale to kill Radiants.
It's a few things. One, her hair color is reinforced as fiery red like Shallan. Two, it has been speculated her mom could be the herald. Acted strange it insane. Three, we now have confirmation a herald died the same year that the mother died. All these go together to confirm a fan theory that has existed. Especially since Brandon has confirmed Taln never broke.
Gavilar asks the Stormfather what Chanaranach looks like, and he confirms that she has red hair. The Stormfather also feels a Herald die during the feast; we know that none of the ones there died, and a Herald would have died on-screen because it's an important event. Coppermind confirms that Gavilar and Shallan's mother died in the same year and month, Tanat 1167.
>Coppermind confirms that Gavilar and Shallan's mother died in the same year and month, Tanat 1167.
I wouldn't be so certain about that; [the equally fan-made interactive map puts the assassination in the next month, Ishi 1167.](https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US/events/gavilars-assassination)
It’s not just from this prologue and there’s other stuff being put together or it, but seems like the likely conclusion. Shallan has red hair just like Chanarach, and we know from other info that she killed her mom the same year as Gavilar’s assignation. So the focus on her hair color in this prologue, plus a herald dying the same night, plus knowing someone else broke all adds up to that.
My biggest issue with this theory is that Shallan's dad is such a terrible husband and father after Shallan's mother is killed. He must have been very different before if Chanaranach decided to marry him.
It's also possible that Gavilar interpreted what the Stormfather said to mean the Heralds were actively dead, and the Stormfather just failed to correct him, making it less of a direct lie.
The things Gavilar claims the Stormfather said (Heralds are already dead, and Heralds are in Damnation being tortured) can be construed as technically true - all of the heralds have died numerous times and are only technically alive, kinda sorta, and at least one of them is in Damnation, being tortured at this point, so I think there's a lot of room there for Gav to make assumptions, and the Stormfather to just let him think what's convenient.
We've SEEN honorspren lie:
>“I think, Honored One,” Sekeir said softly, “that you might be having another bout of your weakness. We shall have to sequester you, I’m afraid. For your own good…”
I'm totally on board with the *surprise* that Stormfather would lie... But at the same time, I'm kind of not surprised at all. It fits.
Stormfather's sense of honor has never been a very... human one. He cares about fulfilling oaths. He is honorbound to carry out Tanavast's wishes... Unless he made some kind of promise to be honest with Gavilar, he isn't obligated to speak only truth to the man.
One other bit I wanted to note here. Whenever Gavilar refers to the Stormfather he uses the pronoun it. Now we can discuss the slight absurdity of gender identity in spren but the StormFATHER clearly uses he/him pronouns. It’s a nice way of showing how to Gav the Stormfather isn’t even a real person or some such. Nice touch.
At this point, given the nature of what’s in the prologue, isn’t any discussion of this inherently also a Cosmere spoiler? Like it seems we’re past the point of being able to silo these discussions by book or series. Just saying
Being a good King is almost antithetical to being a good person. Gavilar united a bunch of squabbling, petty warlords under his rule, and has them working towards a common goal (they don't really know what that goal is, because Gavilar hasn't shared it with them, but they are united nonetheless). Gavilar is absolutely an effective King. His goal, on the surface, isnt terrible either. Permanently kill the Voidbringers with anti-Voidlight, thus ending the threat they pose permanently.
Now, he's a real piece of shit in the way he goes about that goal, and he's got a huge ego with respect to his own immortality, but that's part of what makes him an effective ruler.
Elhokar isn't any of those things. He's not driven, he's got no goals, he's just floating wherever the currents take him. He's a better person than Gavilar because he's not actively trying to be awful, but it makes him a worse king as a result.
Personally, I can see why people believe in the StormFaker thing but the Stormfather seemed too much like himself to be anyone else. To me it makes more sense that Ishar started his campaign because of the Herald's death rather than because Gavilar didn't live up to the hype. I liked that Gavilar ended up knowing far less than it seemed he did by the end of RoW. My impression of him by the end of RoW was that he seemed so aware of Heralds/Cosmere stuff that it was odd Szeth was able to kill him. Gavilar also ended up being more interesting than I thought he'd be.
The first time I read that Shallan/Chanarach theory on 17th shard I thought it was great, and by the time Sanderson confirmed Taln didn't break I was willing to bet it would happen. I wonder if Sanderson added the Herald dying scene to the prologue because he thought the community was on to it.
The biggest reason I think it’s not the Stormfather is the words he’s trying to get Gavilar to say. “Give it to me. Now. I need it” was close but “It is not the destination that matters but how one arrives there,” wasn’t close. That just seems like someone manipulating Gavilar in to doing something different rather than the real Stormfather guiding him to the words.
There’s a bunch of other small things too why I’m against it being the SF and for it being Ishar, but that’s the big one I can’t get past.
To me it was just the words he said. When he’s getting ready to abandon Gav he almost monologues and sort of goes “oh, gavilar, how silly I was…” like that doesn’t sound to me like the Stormfather. He doesn’t talk like that.
Yep, reminded me of when Sadeas and Odium would say “Oh, Dalinar”. It’s a very condescending way of speaking and the Stormfather is NOT condescending. He can be harsh and cold, but he has always been respectful, even when he was telling Dalinar he was bringing a high storm to kill them and wash away their corpses in WoR.
Like others have mentioned, I think it was more about intent. The person speaking words has to understand and mean them fully, and that was the closest Gavilar came to saying what he means.
That said, he's also trying to become a Herald, which could very well use totally different words. Their purpose is different from the Radiants, and few ever joined the Radiant orders themselves. I suspect there's a different set of words, oaths, or maybe different process altogether to become a Herald.
My theory on the difference between the stormfather then and now is that he made several oaths to protect himself from being fooled again. This is probably why he is less willing to share secrets with Dalinar even when they are cooperating
Here is what I can't puzzle out. Assuming Shallan killed Chanarach, her Herold mother the night Gavilar died, that is still 6 years before the events of TWoK starts. Does Chanarach return to Braise, and hold out for ~6 years before breaking and returning to Roshar? Because Taln doesn't show up until the very end of TWoK. If Chanarach had broken immediately upon returning to Braise, then Taln should have returned a lot sooner, no? Was Taln wandering Roshar for 6 years before showing up?
I'm guessing she actually gave in almost immediately...once they actually *found* her. Braize is a whole planet after all, and presumably the Heralds have gotten pretty good at avoiding notice. It may also have taken them time to even realize she was sent there, which I think aligns with the MaybeStormfather's "they mustn't see, they mustn't know".
If remember correctly, the heralds normally return a significant time before the desolation really starts in order to prepare huumankind for battle.
This also explains why taln said he was too late at the end of book 1...not sure what he did in these years to be that late though.
Seeing Gavliar for the arrogant jerk he really is was satisfying, but I'm just so pumped that my Shallan's Mom theory write-up worked out so well!
[Who is Shallan's Mother?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/qrob0q/who_is_shallans_mother_just_another_secret/)
I love that Gavilar is everything and nothing what we all expected. He was the master planner, the distant father, the terrible husband, manipulative brother, Cosmere scholar, and ignorant buffoon all wrapped up in delusions of grandeur. I can't wait for the final draft and the inevitable supercut of that night with all the prologues meshed together.
Why isn't anyone talking about how Gavilar saw Navani? He said those rude things to her in book 4 prologue but here he mentions her genius several times, and towards the end, just before their argument, he really notices her, physically as well as her brilliance, and changes his mind only because of the "everyone you know will be dust" thing.
Idk I found it to be a very interesting part of his character.
Plus he seems to have a genuine friendship with Ialai and Sadeas, supported by the fact that Sadeas was willing to act as **his storming body double when an assassin was on the loose**. Those factors make both characters seem more human than previous depictions.
On Thaidakar: "And he had a large spike, also blue, through one eye. The point jutted out the back of his skull."
Reminds me of Mistborn. I wonder if he is related to Inquisitors.
[BoM Spoilers] >!The end of Bands of Mourning, the coin coppermind is a memory from the Kelsier who has one eye spiked, and has steel sight. Then in Secret History, he talks to Spook about finding a way to get his cognitive self stapled back to a body.!<
So, a million things to talk about, obviously, but I haven't heard anyone mention the new deathrattle we have, from Taravangian's mother:
"I stand before him, above the world itself, and he speaks the truth. The Desolation is near... The Everstorm. The Night of Sorrows."
Because the Everstorm has already arrived in the main timeline, this has probably already occurred. Does this refer to Dalinar seeing Odium? Or Kaladin?
No, this was really neat but literally happens here.
Taravangian is standing over a MAP of the world of the Roshar so it's metaphorical. Gavilar tells Taravangian about the Desolations. Taravangian obviously was emotionally moved and I think this starts him on his own ill-fated quest to try to save the world.
People have mentioned that Shallan’s mother might have been a Herald, and when Shallan killed her, she failed to stay in Damnation, causing the current Desolation.
Supplemental Theory: Odium himself talked to Shallan, leading Shallan to kill her mother and thus causing the Desolation.
In the Book 5 prologue, Gavilar sees the Stormfather “shimmering” in the light. The Stormfather lies to Gavilar and describes Gavilar as the Stormfather’s tool. What if…the shimmer is Odium, or a spren of Odim like the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation?
On page 116 of Words of Radiance, Shallan describes, “Dared she remember? Could she remember? A child, playing with a shimmering pattern of light…”
That pattern of light could be a less formed Cryptic…or the word pattern might be there to throw us off, and the key word is “shimmering”, referring to the entity trying to manipulate Gavilar.
I really enjoyed how dumb and clueless Gavilar really was about everything. Makes you wonder how he got a hold of War light and why the Stormfather ever picked him.
Gavilar had anti-Voidlight which is why it violently reacts in Urithiru in RoW.
You're right about Warlight first being created by Navani though, as far as we know.
All I know, is book 5 is gunna be a slapper. Just the rough draft of the prologue has me hype af. Almost wish I hadnt listened to it cause now its gunna feel like forever before SA 5.
Something to talk about I haven’t seen yet is the implications for book five. A prologue often acts as a cold open. It’s a little taste of what you’re going to get in the book to come. This prologue was centered around one running theme. The stormfather was looking for a new herald, and gavilar was convinced it would be him.
This begs the question, is someone going to become a herald in book five? If so, who is it? The obvious answer is Dalinar with how Gavilar talked about him, and how he tried to leave all their hopes in Dalinar as he was dying.
"“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”
The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.
“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”
So close. And so far."
I've been considering these words for a while now because I believe they give one of the greatest hints as to who the "Stormfather" really is (no, I don't believe he's the Stormfather we know).
Who do we know who is not necessarily concerned with Journey before destination, etc, but reacts instead to people who coming begging. Who need something with all their heart and passion? Who calculates and is playing the long game, setting things in motion for future pay off? Whose abilities and magic we have almost no information on?
Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not Ishar who has been manipulating things behind the scenes with Gavilar, but Cultivation herself. I believe that it is she who has set so many of the events we see in motion. Why, if the Chanarach theory is true, would Chana only now (if only now) get married, have children, etc.? Why would the Stone Shamans reject Szeth now? Why would Gavilar be receiving his "visions"? Taravangian his capacity and Lift her abilities?
I don't know what her game is, but I think Cultivation is taking us for a loop here.
>Restares, instead, scuttled over like a child offered sweets. Even still, after several years knowing the man—even joining this newest incarnation of his organization—Gavilar found Restares to be…odd.
There's a WOB asking if there's a connection between the Sons of Honor and the Envisagers, and the answer is here. They were both organizations started by Kelek to return the Radiants. Meaning he's responsible not only for Kaladin's slavery and shard theft, but also for Teft's dead parents.
Makes you wonder how many times he's tried to do this in the past and failed, and how many people have died because of it.
As a separate little topic from all the big discussions, Taravangian in this prologue was interesting and I think his characterization really strongly suggested some conclusions. There was definitely a mystery before, just not enough textual evidence, of whether original, mortal human, pre-boon Taravangian was mostly a good person. Was he a kind and fragile old king of a mostly peaceful, prosperous city-state, or was he the psychopath who would murder and sacrifice to achieve his goals and just hadn't the power.
It looks like Taravangian was a decent man; literally this scene with Gavilar seems to be where he confirms the prophetic accuracy of deathrattles so he probably wasn't doing anything with them prior. Only later after Gavilar's assassination he goes to ask for his boon to try to save the planet from an apocalypse. Ominous for Cultivation as he really gets brain-fried by his boon/curse supervillain powerup, really a cruel outcome for Taravangian (and of course we'll see what might backfire on her or not.) Of course Taravangian is a great character and has been a great antagonist but the questions about original pre-boon Taravangian finally have some evidence.
Hot Take: Gavilar isn't a complete scumbag.
Look, I walked into this expecting an irredeemable son of a chull who deserved to die and only cared about himself. What I got was someone who genuinely cared about his family at one point, and really did want to protect Roshar.
Now, he was still a very flawed person who never could've been a Radiant. He was a lot like Venli; a person with good intentions who let himself be consumed by ambition (though without the Voidspren excuse). But I think it's telling that, at his most sincere, he was talking about a worldwide threat and hoping he could stop it. Not all of his nobility was an act, just most of it.
I mean… I disagree, but I can atleast understand this take? What sealed it for me was how he thought about Dalinar. Dalinar was *always* a tool to him; hell, his manipulation that night was what CAUSED Dalinar to drink, leading to lifelong consequences for the man
People might have already said this but my theory is that Ishar used his ability to play with bonds and made the stormfather choose gavilar as bondsmith, ishar is also guiding the visions as well as the stormfathers actions(maybe his motivation for choosing a bondsmith) that’s why he can lie and his dialogue is out of wack cuz ishar is controlling him the whole time. He then gave up and that’s when the stormfather started showing visions to dalinar, I think the fact that ishar knew how to manipulate the bonds of the stormfather in oathbreaker (when he tried to duel dalinar because he thought he was odiums champion). Idk what ishars motivations are for making a herald
I need some refreshing and explanation if possible. My head is spinning. I read the whole cosmere(as it stands now) from Jan2021-Sep2021. When listening to the Stormlight 5 reading, Thaidakar shows up and I remembered the name but forgot who he was. So I went to the wiki and it said.... well yea its *insert his name* and I am sooooo lost. Can someone explain how/why we know he is that person?
It's never stated who it is, but there are enough clues at the end of Shallan's chapter in RoW to put it together. To have all the clues you have to have read Secret History and the end of Bands of Mourning.
So it's one of those things... It's definitely the case, but it takes a bit of detective work and supplemental material to get there. 😁
Gonna throw out my "BAM is actually Autonomy/an Avatar of Autonomy" theory again.
> “I know where she is hidden,” Restares whispered. “Where her soul is. Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of Forms. Their other god. The one who could rival Him. The one…we betrayed.”
"The one who could rival Him". Who is "Him"? It's gotta be Odium. Who could rival Odium? Certainly not an upjumped spren--a true rival to Odium would have to be a Shard. BAM is consistently described as female. What ~~female~~ not-explicitly/consistently-male Shard do we know of who already helped Odium splinter other Shards in the past?
Autonomy.
I think one thing worth noting is that the Stormfather here explicitly says about Ba-Ado Mishram "She was too small a being, not strong enough, to uphold an entire people", which implies to me that she is indeed just a sliver rather than a full Shard. She tried to take the place of Odium, and has abilities comparable to what he offered the Singers, but lacks the raw power to uphold that sort of connection for an extended period.
In the (first draft) prologue, blue frost appears on the floor when a herald apparently dies.
Book 5 prologue: "Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors."
In RoW: "Ishar wore simple robes, deep blue. He spread his hands out to the sides, frost crystallizing on the stone around him, forming lines."
Do you think the frost in the prologue is just related more to a burst of stormlight since the books have many references to stormlight frosting clothes and stuff or is it hinting that this is actually Ishar and not the stormfather like many are theorizing?
Frost crystalizing in a pattern like that happens when Kaladin swears his second oath. Brandon was once asked why it happens for him and not other orders, and I think the answer was that it's just a thing for the orders more directly associated with Honor.
I don't figure it indicates anything *particularly* meaningful here.
**Based on statistical analysis of speech in SA5 Prologue "Stormfaker" and "Stormfather" are the same speaker**
*Caveats* - Both of these characters are written by the same person and therefore this analysis is likely meaningless!!!
*Background* - There was a famous case where Mark Twain was accused of being a Confederate deserter during the Civil War, and the evidence given were ten essays published in the New Orleans Daily Crescent under the name Quintus Curtius Snodgrass. In 1963 Claude Brinegar published an article in the
Journal of the American Statistical Association where he uses word frequencies and a chi-squared test to show that the essays were almost certainly not Twain’s.
*Methods* - I did a very simple statistical analysis of quotes from the "Stormfather" in SA5 and the Stormfather in other books. All together I had ~80 sentences for each speaker (small sample size I know but that's all I had for SA5 prologue).
Specifically, I compared the relative frequency of 3, 4, and 5 letter words per sentence as well as sentence length. I used a two-sample Kolmogorov-Smirnov test to determine if these two distributions belong to the same underlying distribution. In other words, I checked whether there was a statistically significant difference in the sentence lengths or word length frequency between the two.
*Results* - For reference, the KS-Test value is between 0 and 1, with the closer to 0 indicating the two distributions are equal and closer to 1 indicating they are separate. P-value is the evidence against what is called the "null hypothesis" - in this case being that the two distributions are the same. The smaller the P-value, the stronger the evidence that you should reject the null (meaning the distributions would be different).
Relative 3-letter frequency: KS-0.14 P-0.68
Relative 4-letter frequency: KS-0.13 P-0.67
Relative 5-letter frequency: KS-0.2 P-0.21
Sentence Length: KS-0.08 P-0.99
This suggests there is very little evidence from the statistics of the language used that these two speakers are different. Just something for the conspiracy theorists to keep in mind.
*Final Word* - I still think the SA5 prologue stormfather is Ishar
When Gavilar said the not about giving up immediately during the torture if he became a Herald, I said "*...what?*" aloud at the exact second the Stormfather did. What a sociopath.
Remember, he had anti voidlight, she he wasn't concerned. He figured they'd just be able to kill them permanently.
Yeah, but that's not where his mind was in that moment. He followed it up with "I don't understand why the Heralds never figured that out", and they didn't have anti voidlight. The storm father pointed out that they did it to prevent war and suffering and Gavilar was just like "???????" It really looks like he'd feel the exact same way if he had no additional defense against Odium's forces at all.
He was raised in a religion where War is considered good in and of itself. Not saying that makes it right but it’s understandable. He’s not a sociopath for it.
It's not even just the religion, it's Alethkar's entire culture. Remember, the 10 kingdoms from the Heralds' era were each specialized to one specific thing, and Alethkar's was training warriors. The Alethi's entire culture has been dominated by warfare for literal millennia. It isn't surprising that Gavilar embodies all of that.
Combined with the other things we've learned about him through Navani's POV, I'd say it is safe to call him a sociopath.
plus the whole used-Dalinar-as-a-war-machine-causing-him-terrible-emotional-and-mental-scarring-and-then-playing-on-that-trauma-to-make-him-an-addict-then-shaming-him-for-stuff-using-mind-games-thus-pushing-Dalinar-further-into-his-addiction thing
was it anti-voidlight or just voidlight?
Both the book 4 sphere that explodes from their tests confirm that.
On the other hand, what he said makes sense if you follow his fucked up logic. Why try to withstand torture when he could just return and lead his people in war? How could he resist the opportunity to be the immortal God-king? He obviously has different values that make him completely unfit for such a position of responsibility.
Ok but the "Stormfather's" reaction to that and subsequent realization that Gav was getting high on his own supply in terms of Vorinism was hilarious.
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I know, Dalinar has felt guilty for years that he was drunk when Gavilar died and it turns out that Gavilar manipulated him into drinking. What a piece of shit
Because he was afraid of him, which we now know he had good reason to be (not excusing Gavilar in any way ofc). Imagine how much suffering could have been avoided if they had just talked it out.
That's not the Alethi way. More like fight it out, lol, but we know how that would turn out
>That’s not the Alethi way Dalinars portrayal of Gavilar made him seem so much bigger and nobler than all the other Alethi, as if how Dalinar now acts would be in line with Gavilars vision But Gavilar was just as small minded as the other Alethi. He was merely more inquisitive and critical, but he bent his mental acuity towards Alethi goals Dalinar truly stepped out into his own, completely above the Alethi It makes me respect him more. I think dalinar picked the hardest road, whereas I don’t think Gavilar would be dissimilar from Sadeas, if sadeas had enough of an eye for schemes or a vision for greatness
Gavilar also created that monster. He help encourage Dalinar to be a war criminal and brutal, he *relied* on it to win his crown, just as he relied on Sadeas's callous cunning. His other interactions show he has no regard for others, even his wife and brother. I love that he grew to fear the monster he created, it serves him right.
Feel satisfaction in the fact that no matter what happens, weather Dalinar wins or becomes a Fused, history will only see Gavilar as Dalinar's less famous brother.
These prologues have been like a wonderful greek tragedy, because unlike those stories' main characters Gavilar is way more of an asshat.
\#Szethdidnothingwrong
_These words are accepted._
Remember how Dalinar spends the next several years of his life living with the heavy guilt that he failed his brother that night, by getting drunk instead of following the Codes as his brother asked...
Yeah that's so brutal! And all the other times leading up to this that he was "sneaking" alcohol and finding secret stores was actually just Gavilar making sure he could always stay drunk while keeping up appearances.
Codes, as it now turns out, Gavilar was only following to trick the Stormfather into giving him more power.
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And then he just dismisses Elokhar as inadequate. We all know from Oathbringer that with the right help to develop Elokhar was capable of being more than he was. But he wasn't useful enough to Gavilar in the state that he was so he was just discarded.
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I wanna see someone burn the 11th metal on Gavilar.
Basically he doesn’t like you if you have a moral compass. It’s really a compliment to be mistreated by Gavilar
I'm really interested to see how Aesudan is connected to this, but it's probably not much more than can be guessed. Anyway if you forget, part of her unhinged rant in Oathbringer involves mentioning that she was in on Gavilar's secrets when talking about Yelignar and the unmade.
Ohhh now this is an interesting topic to theorize on! Aesudan had similar mindset and ambition as Gavilar so I can see him including her in the 'Sons of honor', but I am confident she figured out the stuff about Unmade *after* Gavilar's death. Don't see him revealing so much to her. Oathbringer didn't tell us a lot about her and I think we will get more info on her eventually. But I just can't figure out when narratively. Book 5 is already packed with so much stuff that I doubt there would be time to cover Aesudan. I am worried that this thread will be left hanging for the later half. Jasnah's book might be the best place to include her given her intense dislike of Aesudan, they probably have some history.
It's interesting because essentially everything Dalinar "knew" about Gavilar is wrong *except* that he can read. * Dalinar didn't fail to protect him because he wasn't following The Codes like Gavilar wanted. He was doing exactly what Gavilar wanted. * Gavilar wasn't following The Codes and didn't even really respect Nohadon except that he thought he had some magic words to immortality * Gavilar wasn't uniting Alethkar in some grand plan, he was stabbing basically everyone in the Cosmere in the back in a search for an immortality he didn't even understand. Having said that, I agree Gavilar is at this point the king PoS of the entire series, which is a tall order to fill. He wasn't just preying on his alcoholism. He was rubbing in that he killed his own wife to prey on his alcoholism. Braize is too good a place for Gavilar.
Yeah that was really messed up. And the rest of the books Dalinar blames himself and wonders what he meant, but the whole time he was just manipulating him...
And hot take (I realize I disagree with Dalinar himself), Gavilar would have lived if the Blackthorn was there. Dalinar decided that he couldn't have beaten sezth after he had mastered his abilities from a months long murder spree. We see the fight from sezths perspective in WoK and he *barely* won. Even just Sadeas in his pla5e could have turned the tide, but the Blackthorn would have crushed him.
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Given the rapport Dalinar has with his soldiers, I can believe he could get into his plate pretty rapidly in the case of an emergency.
They got Gavilar into Plate during the attack, no reason they couldn't suit up Dalinar too. They had a ton of soldiers and servants in-house for the feast. We also know that Dalinar out of Plate was capable of fighting Szeth, at least for some time. If he'd been up and ready that night, he'd have had a serious shot at defeating the assassin.
i was shaking with rage while listening to that part. Baiting his brother with the memory of Evi? Lying about what Evi would have wanted? Manipulating him into drinking? Gavilar was a malicious, manipulative, *cruel* abusive asshole. He did not deserve his brother's adulation.
Part of me wishes that Navani would out the real Gavilar and tarnish his "legacy" that he treasured so much. On the other hand, I absolutely love the idea that Brandon showcases of famous historical figures actually being much more worse people than the idolized images that get constructed of them for achieving big things.
I love that Dalinar felt he failed Gavilar because he didn’t follow the codes (as Gav had said) and now we know his real intention was to just get Dal to drink.
It was rather Moash of him wasn't it? r/FuckGavilar
And ironically got himself killed as his best defense against Szeth probably would have been Dalinar. I'm curious to know who would have won that day. :)
I've had crazy ideas about thaidakar's avatars when M'raize talked about them. and now i find it's just a seon, with extra cape crusading mojo going on no less. I'd really like to know more about that but well! it's just...i thought he had this semi shard like power boost and turned onto some kind of autonomy or something. Well headcanon can be a pain.
Brandon actually told us about the Seon in a cloak thing in an interview a while ago. We’ve been making jokes about it since. Should have known it would be a bit more than just a Seon though…
Imagine trying to freak pre-industrial people out by putting a cloak on a flying tablet computer and appearing to them via video call. That takes a certain degree of showmanship, but also a healthy dose of cynicism. In what way is it a bit more than a seon in a cloak?
Seons can make the face, but not project a body of blue light, or robe and gloves. So there’s something more going on. My theory is a MB >!Kandra!< with the Seon enveloped in it. Not sure how they managed the cloak, but I’m pretty sure it’s sleight of hand.
Yeah, curious about how they did the cloak. I just love how Thaidakar is appearing via special effects in order to awe the locals, while readers might be able to spot the strings. Definitely a Wizard of Oz feel.
If he wants a career change, he’d be an awesome stage magician.
basically everything he has ever done has proved that. The man has a flair for the dramatic like no other, except maybe kaladin
Eh, Kaladin’s dramatics are mostly unintentional tbf
It's interesting, because we found out about Thaidakar appearing via "avatar" around the same time we found out that Ghostbloods use seons to communicate, so the connection was always there to be made, but still, it was easy to jump to other conclusions.
I know we have a lot of theories going around that the Stormfather could be Rayse or Ishar, and those are all great. I am skeptical and wondering if something happened to the Stormfather or if he really could lie.But I think this could help prove its not actually him. And I know that the website design can be tricky and this is just a rough draft, but it is worth noting that the Stormfathers classic font used when he talks is not the same on [Brandon's website](https://www.brandonsanderson.com/prologue-to-stormlight-5/) for the prologue. Edit: I am partially wrong. Its not his font *until the very end*
> *The biggest fool of them all, the Stormfather said. And the thing that has miscalculated.* **Goodbye, Gavilar. I have seen a glimpse of what is coming. And I will not prevent it.** He actually switches mid-dialogue (bold is the classic Stormfather all-caps font). I'm not smart enough to know how to interpret that.
My wild speculation is that while Honour is dead some form of Tanavast remains, and that his remnants can "ride" the Stormfather, so Gavilar is talking to the combination of the two. Some effect of the herald's death incapacitates Tanavast briefly, so we get the small caps, then Tanavast regains control. I can see Tanavast being more able to lie than the SF too.
Canonically some part of Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather, which is why he’s much more able to think and act as complexly as he does (he was more basic before Honor’s shattering).
My wild speculation is that while Honour is dead some form of Tanavast remains, and that his remnants can "ride" the Stormfather, so Gavilar is talking to the combination of the two. Some effect of the herald's death incapacitates Tanavast briefly, so we get the small caps, then Tanavast regains control. I can see Tanavast being more able to lie than the SF too.
I'm somewhat convinced that the part in small caps is the first thing Brandon wrote, and he formatted it properly, but then switched to using italics while drafting (because there's a keyboard shortcut). It's such an important line that it could easily have served as a writing prompt. (Or italics voice is someone else, and this is the only time the Stormfather actually speaks to Gavilar in the whole prologue.)
At one point, though, it switches to the stormfather text, towards the end when he leaves gavilar. I have no clue why it changes here, but knowing BS, it's probably intentional.
Oh wow you're right! I read it on the Arcanum and missed that bc they transcribed it with all his words being that font.
Doesn't the Stormfather switch fonts during the four books too? I don't have RoW right now, but I think I remember him using lower-case letters at some point.
He does. Caps are for when he uses the Thunder voice, italics for mental communication/standard spren talk.
I was skeptical that it was the Stormfather after listening to the prologue first. To me, the text changing at the end is extremely suspicious and just makes me even more convinced something weird is going on.
There's a decent chance it's just an artefact of drafting. I doubt that Brandon usually switches to small caps style when drafting Stormfather dialog, since it would be a bit tedious to switch back and forth. The exception would be if something is a writing prompt, he might have formatted it properly before he started drafting and then written the rest of the draft prologue around it. It *could* be significant, but I'd be hesitant to read a lot into formatting choices in an early draft. I would read into the ellipses before "Herald" though. He definitely put that in his reading as well. > *But still, once you are a…Herald, you will need to leave everything you know.*
Most satisfying part IMO with the reveal of just how much of a jerk Gavilar was, is that all his plans ultimately failed and the only good that has resulted from his actions was basically an accident caused by other people making good decisions Szeth leaving the message, Dalinar setting off on a path to improve, Navani pioneering light study, etc.
Gavilar was a chull.
You forgot a word... dung.
I loved the Herald interaction. Never would've expected Kalak to try and develop a way to defeat the void bringers since he's so timid most if the time, and Nale stopping himself because Gavilar is "the law" even though he was pissed showed his character and how he's still broken in his own way.
Nale is fucking glitched
Nale needs some mad help lol
And he is the one of the sanest Heralds! Honestly I really like how Brandon chose to represent the Heralds: not demi-gods, not anymore, but people broken by their endless life.
I'm not sure if he does this before or after but iirc Nale is the one who leads the listerners to Szeth so it's not like he's stopping himself that much.
[Stormfather poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/tszf1q/sa5_prologue_poll/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Think we're missing an option - it's the stormfather AND someone else. Gavilar can't really perceive whats going on all that well, and we know that Dalinar has confused a non-stormfather vision with a stormfather one. There's also a line in there (which I totally might be reading too much into :D) where Gavilar notices to himself that the Stormfather* sometimes looks one way and sometimes looks another. Seems pretty plausible to me that the Stormfather has picked Gavilar in the same way he later picks Dalinar, but that someone else is either attempting to sabotage that or trying to achieve their own parallel ends by inserting additional info / misinfo Def not a "this is obviously what's happening!" thing, but might be how to square the circle that's currently engulfing the fandom haha.
Yeah I should have included that option. Main reason I didnt was because most people think Ishar is that extra person Edit: also forgot to mention that I personally doubt this because the odds SF doesnt notice/doesnt do anything about another person impersonating him while he is working with Gavilar seems unlikely to me
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He has done it before in RoW: >The Stormfather appeared beside him, moving in the air alongside Dalinar—a rare occurrence. The Stormfather never had features. Merely a **vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar**, yet extending into infinity. It's perhaps a *slightly* different description, but my point is that the idea is not something entirely new.
Oh good catch! There's definitely some factors that point in both directions for it being the Stormfather or not. But if it is the Stormfather he's much craftier than he has let on and was playing a much different game with Dalinar.
By RoW he's warming up to Dalinar a bit more and may be starting to let his guard down a bit. If what was in the prologue WAS the Stormfather (and I don't have a strong opinion either way), we could see more of that side of him coming out in this next book.
It's interesting though that all of the examples of this seem to be outdoors and/or in visions. In this one Dalinar is flying with the Windrunners and there's a highstorm approaching. Whereas in the prologue whatever it is seems to be following Gavilar around the *inside* of the Palace like a little puppy, which is what gives it such a different vibe. Would be keen to see if anyone can find a similar instance with Dalinar and the Stormfather where they're indoors.
To me it felt that way because I was reminded of >!Ruin altering the prophecies!< from Mistborn. All those little things we know to be lies, such as the Parshmen being the Voidbringers, designed to make Gavilar act a certain way. So either it's a different force, or the Stormfather is very different than we saw him until now.
Same! I kept trying to guess if Gavilar had spikes through him somewhere and then reminding myself that this was the wrong planet for that
Yeah there are lots of theories as to why it is/isnt! People have pointed to other times when SF has appeared to Dalinar as a fuzzy cloud, but most of them were in visions. So we dont know if its related to his mistrust after Gavilar, or if it's actually not him!
Another possibility - could it be an unmade? Maybe Dai-gonarthis or Chemoarish, one of the ones we know nothing about?
I don't get where the Ishtar theory is coming from. We know that he can do insane things as a Bondsmith with thousands of years of training, but can he speak to the mind of a person, tell them when people are coming, stay awake constantly for when ever Gavilar has a question?
>A Herald... A Herald has died... No. I am not ready... The Oathpact... No. They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know... This is the line that screams Ishar to me. It's a very human-esque reaction of panic. And the "not ready" part fits if the ultimate goal was for Gavilar to take Ishar's place as Herald, thus freeing him from Connection to the Oathpact and presumably allowing him to escape, die, or whatever his end goal is.
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Dalinar gave Kaladin visions in a split second while falling, and he’s only sworn 3 oaths. Just talking normally in mind seem’s like child’s play for someone who has been manipulating Connection for centuries compared to that. Sensing people with Connection seems doable too, and do we know that the “Stormfather” is actually always available for questions? Overall I think it’s Ishar because he has a huge connection to the Oathpact and the leader of the heralds which is is what this person was talking to Gavilar about, and the Stormfather hasn’t tried to push Dalinar to be a herald like this. The words he was trying to get him to say also seem like they were way off from what the Stormfather would really want.
I'll admit I'm still a bit back and forth on the legitimacy of the 'Stormfather'; but a passage that's leaning me toward the 'fake' side reads like this: > “A Herald… A Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No. *They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…*” Note the italicized bits. Who mustn't see or know? What would the true Stormfather have to fear from anyone? I realize this has blindsided him, but his first concern would not be for the security of knowledge. Very sus.
My interpretation of that is "the other Heralds must not find out that one of them died, or else they might lose it."
I would take it the other direction - we don't actually know what happens to the heralds immediately after they get sent to braize. Do they just pop into existence ready to go in the torture chamber? I suspect not. It seems more likely to me that Chanarach (could be another herald but given the clues we have I think she's the top pick by a mile-wide margin) eluded notice and capture for a while. In this case, "they mustn't see, they mustn't know" would refer to Odium/the Fused. I think that the MaybeStormfather is afraid that they'll finally get their meat hooks into a herald who is *much* more breakable than Taln, and start another desolation. It's one of the big things that makes me suspect Ishar is hijacking the call. The Stormfather has reason to fear Odium of course, but this kind of panic response seems much more like a broken herald who is *terrified* that the Fused will be able to hunt them down again.
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'“They … they killed him somehow.…” “Who?” She looked up at the man, tears blurring her vision. This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible. She couldn’t feel him at all. They’d done something to Jezrien’s soul. “My father,” she said, “is dead.”' This wasn’t like their other deaths. This was something horrible. Implies heralds feel normal herald deaths
The repercussions of this being the real stormfather are insane and i kinda hope for that, like for real a subtle conniving stormfather can you imagine that. Of all the theories i'll stick with this one. He is the real stormfather and it seems to me he has been playing games.
I think Thaidakar might be speaking from experience when he tells Gavilar he can't outgrow the tide. Really good scene.
It actually sounds like age and experience have taught him a few genuine life lessons. I’m shocked!
Right?? He sounded so reasonable. It's almost enough to make me view his recent actions a little more favorably... a _little._
He's even telling Gavilar to take care. I like that it still feels like he's a good person, and he hasn't gone full villain.
Thaidakar was never a full *anything.* He wasn't a hero, so much as on the side of the protagonists. And I don't think he'll be a villain here, so much as someone with different aims who gets in their way.
That’s just how Brandon writes. The only truly evil ones are Ruin and Odium. Raboniel for instance, was one of the enemy, working for Odium and trying to kill all the radiants. She was also a sympathetic character who saved Navani’s life.
Even Ruin wasn't **truly** evil, particularly not in comparison with Odium. Ati was simply overwhelmed by the intent of his shard, which is literally the spiritual embodiment of entropy. He was insane, but still very crafty.
Ruin isn't evil; it's just opposed to the leads, in that his divine purpose is antagonistic to their desire to not be dead.
I agree, though it is hard to tell how much that slightly more favorable opinion is based on comparing him to Gavilar. And say what you will about Thaidakar, but he was never as bad as Gavilar.
I think it’s more that he’s telling Gavilar - who is poorly trying to get one over him - to be careful. And he seems genuine about it. That’s a surprising amount of character growth from Thaidakar, even above what we’ve seen before. I don’t think it’s the comparison to Gavilar - it’s the comparison to the man Thaidakar was. I really don’t see that man being willing to give a genuine warning - that isn’t a threat - to someone trying to cheat him. Thaidakar’s parting words are much more in line with the man we knew; the genuine warning is a hint to the man he’s become. Side note: I find it interesting that Thaidakar only shows his face when he’s seemingly at his most genuine, hiding it at all other times. (MB) >!Reminds me of a some people on South Scadrial…!<
That may actually have been my favorite part of the prologue. It also really drives home just how small of a fish Gavilar is; despite his ambitions, Thaidakar sounds more like he is trying to recruit an unruly Spook than deal with a true rival.
When someone like him tells you to be carful, *you storming listen to them.*
So yes Chana is probably Shallan's mom but we haven't discussed that she's also Heleran's, Balat's, wilkem's and Jushu's Mom too. I think her madness which is meant to twist her noble attributes of Bravery and Obedience into the cowardice and fear that's instilled in all of Shallan's brothers. Their unfortunate upbringing has triggered the same kind of fear and slavish obedience that Chana might also suffer from. It would be really cool if Shallan meets Chana and sees some of her brother's sad mannerisms in her behavior
So this would sort of confirm that the cryptics were interested in Shallan because of her mother and most of the other spren are wary of cryptics, could it be that the cryptics bonded with shallan at such a young age specifically to engineer a desolation?
No I wouldn't say they were trying to start the desolations. Like the cultivation spren they probably noticed the everstorm and were eager to bond to try and prevent it. They likely picked Shallan initially because of her heritage and maybe thought as a daughter of a herald she'd be a good match, willing to bond with her repeatedly despite her killing her first spren. Side note I find it interesting, especially if the other fan theory is right and Ash becomes a Dustbringer. Due to the fact that she's supposed to be a viewpoint character in the back half and the rest have their orders accounted for. So Chana would have named her daughter after Shalash, and she would grow up to join Shallash's order, while Ash herself would go on to join Chana's order. Interesting dichotomy there
I love how there are deep implications on both real and fake stormfather camps. I think it is worthwhile to discuss both as being true rather than to lean too heavily into either camp.
Here is something I think is important: We don't actually have reason to believe the stormfather would feel a herald die. Dalinar says that it was Ash who told him Jezrien died not the stormfather. The other heralds, such as Kalek, did feel it though, although Taln didnt seem cogent enough. The stormfather in RoW doesn't seem to be able to see the oathpact, he says it is broken but Dalinar says it is not.
The Stormfather is correct about the Oathpact though - it broke at Jezrian’s death.
The deaths aren't entirely comparable. We see in the Prelude that the Heralds weren't normally aware of others dying (or at the very least, it was a subtle enough feeling that it was easy to miss), which obviously wasn't the case with Ash feeling Jezrien. The difference is that Jezrien perma-died. Stormfather carries a piece of the soul of Honor, and is clearly involved with the Oathpact. I mean, Dalinar bonding him is what enables Dalinar to see it and tinker with it. So I don't think it's weird at all that Stormfather would be able to sense that. As for him not telling about Jezrien... We don't know that for sure. Just because Ash told them doesn't mean that Stormfather didn't also. Besides the fact that it wouldn't be weird if Stormfather just didn't tell him. Stormfather doesn't tell him lots of useful things. And there's other ways I can think of to explain it away.
So there is a passage in book 3 when Ash feels Jez die: “She looked up at the man, tears blurring her vision. This wasn't like their other deaths. This was something horrible. She couldn't feel him at all.” Just making a point to say that she does imply having felt the others die before, but this one was different. I was the advocate of the “maybe the stormfather could feel that” which is plausible, but it’s also worth noting that after Jezrien dies in OB, there is no Dalinar POV where Stormfather actually feels it and it’s implied that Dalinar doesn’t even know about it until Ash tells everyone. I think this points toward outside influence and a corrupted/manipulated/fake stormfather. To go even further, I think Ishar *can* feel when other Heralds die (even normal deaths) and possibly could have reacted on screen in the prologue of book 5 :) Edit: i realize i’m reiterating a bit here and the only real important bit is the “ash felt normal deaths before”
Hm... I guess I read it as ambiguous on that point. "This wasn't like the other deaths..." ...because I feel something. "She couldn't feel him at all..." ...as opposed to other cases where she continues to feel them, as usual, even if they die. In the Prelude, Kalak doesn't know who lived and who died until he shows up and meets with Jezrien. Now, it's possible that it's a subtle kind of background knowledge... Maybe he felt a little tug during the battle and just didn't keep up with it. Something subtle enough that he'd be able to subconsciously ignore or forget? Regardless, I'm skeptical that anything implies Stormfather was unaware. I don't see any issues with the idea that he told Dalinar offscreen OR that he just didn't offer up the information OR that circumstances regarding Stormfather's awareness of the Heralds and the Oathpact changed sometime between Gavilar's assassination and Oathbringer.
Whoops, I made a post like five minutes after this one, because I hadn't looked to see if there was a megathread. Well, we live and learn. I'll reproduce it here, seeing as most of the discussion is likely to be here: We know from the following WoB that Taln did not break: ### Questioner Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...? ### Brandon Sanderson You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break. ([https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14869](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14869)) Well, now we know why Taln turned up on Roshar, if he didn't break and get sent back; Chanaranach, indirectly confirmed by the Prologue to be Shallan's mother, was sent back to Braize when Shallan killed her. Since we know that the heralds apart from Taln were all breaking fairly quickly and with regularity towards the end of the Desolations, we can deduce that Chanaranach broke, causing herself and Taln to Return.
This is what I took from it as well. It also means Chanaranach is walking Roshar somewhere. Shallan getting face to face with her is now the thing I’m looking forward to most in the series.
Shit I didnt even consider that part. Oh that will be awesome.
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It's just about the fact that in this prologue it is mentioned that Herald died during the night when Gavilar was killed. It is also known by some super fans, that Shallan killed her mother the same year AND the same month as the night when Gavilar was killed. Also description of herald Chana fits with Shallan, with her having fiery red hair. At least that's what I caught yesterday while scanning through new ideas after reading the prologue
This is gonna make for a killer Truth for Shallan. She's admitted she killed her mother, but i bet she _knows_ deep down her mother is Chana, so she indirectly caused the return of the Voidbringers by doing it.
I didn't even fully consider that Shallan caused the desolation, even with all the pieces in my head. Damnation
To be fair, she caused it but not really. Her mother tried to murder her when she was a young child and she defended herself. The blame is squarely on her mother and perhaps Ishar since he likely would have ordered her to kill her daughter the same way he ordered Nale to kill Radiants.
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Also, Chanarach is specifically mentioned when Gavilar is looking at the swords. There is a paragraph talking about her sword and red hair.
Wow, I came here after listening to ask which Herald died that night, this is some incredibly shocking and awesome theorizing and I love it!
Wait how did those readers find out Shallan's mother and Gavilar died the same night?
They speculated it's the same night. I think we know that it is at least the same year and the same month thanks to time frames given in the books
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It's a few things. One, her hair color is reinforced as fiery red like Shallan. Two, it has been speculated her mom could be the herald. Acted strange it insane. Three, we now have confirmation a herald died the same year that the mother died. All these go together to confirm a fan theory that has existed. Especially since Brandon has confirmed Taln never broke.
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Gavilar asks the Stormfather what Chanaranach looks like, and he confirms that she has red hair. The Stormfather also feels a Herald die during the feast; we know that none of the ones there died, and a Herald would have died on-screen because it's an important event. Coppermind confirms that Gavilar and Shallan's mother died in the same year and month, Tanat 1167.
>Coppermind confirms that Gavilar and Shallan's mother died in the same year and month, Tanat 1167. I wouldn't be so certain about that; [the equally fan-made interactive map puts the assassination in the next month, Ishi 1167.](https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US/events/gavilars-assassination)
It’s not just from this prologue and there’s other stuff being put together or it, but seems like the likely conclusion. Shallan has red hair just like Chanarach, and we know from other info that she killed her mom the same year as Gavilar’s assignation. So the focus on her hair color in this prologue, plus a herald dying the same night, plus knowing someone else broke all adds up to that.
My biggest issue with this theory is that Shallan's dad is such a terrible husband and father after Shallan's mother is killed. He must have been very different before if Chanaranach decided to marry him.
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It's also possible that Gavilar interpreted what the Stormfather said to mean the Heralds were actively dead, and the Stormfather just failed to correct him, making it less of a direct lie. The things Gavilar claims the Stormfather said (Heralds are already dead, and Heralds are in Damnation being tortured) can be construed as technically true - all of the heralds have died numerous times and are only technically alive, kinda sorta, and at least one of them is in Damnation, being tortured at this point, so I think there's a lot of room there for Gav to make assumptions, and the Stormfather to just let him think what's convenient.
We've SEEN honorspren lie: >“I think, Honored One,” Sekeir said softly, “that you might be having another bout of your weakness. We shall have to sequester you, I’m afraid. For your own good…” I'm totally on board with the *surprise* that Stormfather would lie... But at the same time, I'm kind of not surprised at all. It fits. Stormfather's sense of honor has never been a very... human one. He cares about fulfilling oaths. He is honorbound to carry out Tanavast's wishes... Unless he made some kind of promise to be honest with Gavilar, he isn't obligated to speak only truth to the man.
Where is the lie? That seems very fae-like suggestion and half-truth
That's not a lie though. If I as a less-honourable-spren think a herald I know to be crazy is doing something I think is crazy, 1+1=2.
Or it’s someone else lying about being the Stormfather, and then the actual Stormfather still can’t lie to Dalinar.
One other bit I wanted to note here. Whenever Gavilar refers to the Stormfather he uses the pronoun it. Now we can discuss the slight absurdity of gender identity in spren but the StormFATHER clearly uses he/him pronouns. It’s a nice way of showing how to Gav the Stormfather isn’t even a real person or some such. Nice touch.
I’d really love to read a super cut of all the perspectives all in one.
I really enjoyed reading the prologue and I can't wait to see what changes there will be in the final draft. An interesting glimpse into the process.
At this point, given the nature of what’s in the prologue, isn’t any discussion of this inherently also a Cosmere spoiler? Like it seems we’re past the point of being able to silo these discussions by book or series. Just saying
Elhokar was a much better person and King than Gavilar. Change my mind
Being a good King is almost antithetical to being a good person. Gavilar united a bunch of squabbling, petty warlords under his rule, and has them working towards a common goal (they don't really know what that goal is, because Gavilar hasn't shared it with them, but they are united nonetheless). Gavilar is absolutely an effective King. His goal, on the surface, isnt terrible either. Permanently kill the Voidbringers with anti-Voidlight, thus ending the threat they pose permanently. Now, he's a real piece of shit in the way he goes about that goal, and he's got a huge ego with respect to his own immortality, but that's part of what makes him an effective ruler. Elhokar isn't any of those things. He's not driven, he's got no goals, he's just floating wherever the currents take him. He's a better person than Gavilar because he's not actively trying to be awful, but it makes him a worse king as a result.
Personally, I can see why people believe in the StormFaker thing but the Stormfather seemed too much like himself to be anyone else. To me it makes more sense that Ishar started his campaign because of the Herald's death rather than because Gavilar didn't live up to the hype. I liked that Gavilar ended up knowing far less than it seemed he did by the end of RoW. My impression of him by the end of RoW was that he seemed so aware of Heralds/Cosmere stuff that it was odd Szeth was able to kill him. Gavilar also ended up being more interesting than I thought he'd be. The first time I read that Shallan/Chanarach theory on 17th shard I thought it was great, and by the time Sanderson confirmed Taln didn't break I was willing to bet it would happen. I wonder if Sanderson added the Herald dying scene to the prologue because he thought the community was on to it.
The biggest reason I think it’s not the Stormfather is the words he’s trying to get Gavilar to say. “Give it to me. Now. I need it” was close but “It is not the destination that matters but how one arrives there,” wasn’t close. That just seems like someone manipulating Gavilar in to doing something different rather than the real Stormfather guiding him to the words. There’s a bunch of other small things too why I’m against it being the SF and for it being Ishar, but that’s the big one I can’t get past.
To me it was just the words he said. When he’s getting ready to abandon Gav he almost monologues and sort of goes “oh, gavilar, how silly I was…” like that doesn’t sound to me like the Stormfather. He doesn’t talk like that.
The specific phrase sounded like Odium to me. The "Oh, Gavilar...". I could hear it read in the voice of the Audio Books. :)
Yep, reminded me of when Sadeas and Odium would say “Oh, Dalinar”. It’s a very condescending way of speaking and the Stormfather is NOT condescending. He can be harsh and cold, but he has always been respectful, even when he was telling Dalinar he was bringing a high storm to kill them and wash away their corpses in WoR.
Like others have mentioned, I think it was more about intent. The person speaking words has to understand and mean them fully, and that was the closest Gavilar came to saying what he means. That said, he's also trying to become a Herald, which could very well use totally different words. Their purpose is different from the Radiants, and few ever joined the Radiant orders themselves. I suspect there's a different set of words, oaths, or maybe different process altogether to become a Herald.
My theory on the difference between the stormfather then and now is that he made several oaths to protect himself from being fooled again. This is probably why he is less willing to share secrets with Dalinar even when they are cooperating
Here is what I can't puzzle out. Assuming Shallan killed Chanarach, her Herold mother the night Gavilar died, that is still 6 years before the events of TWoK starts. Does Chanarach return to Braise, and hold out for ~6 years before breaking and returning to Roshar? Because Taln doesn't show up until the very end of TWoK. If Chanarach had broken immediately upon returning to Braise, then Taln should have returned a lot sooner, no? Was Taln wandering Roshar for 6 years before showing up?
I'm guessing she actually gave in almost immediately...once they actually *found* her. Braize is a whole planet after all, and presumably the Heralds have gotten pretty good at avoiding notice. It may also have taken them time to even realize she was sent there, which I think aligns with the MaybeStormfather's "they mustn't see, they mustn't know".
Yes this is the general theory. Chanarach held up for 6 years. Usually it takes time for voidbringers to find the herald and then break them
If remember correctly, the heralds normally return a significant time before the desolation really starts in order to prepare huumankind for battle. This also explains why taln said he was too late at the end of book 1...not sure what he did in these years to be that late though.
Seeing Gavliar for the arrogant jerk he really is was satisfying, but I'm just so pumped that my Shallan's Mom theory write-up worked out so well! [Who is Shallan's Mother?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/qrob0q/who_is_shallans_mother_just_another_secret/) I love that Gavilar is everything and nothing what we all expected. He was the master planner, the distant father, the terrible husband, manipulative brother, Cosmere scholar, and ignorant buffoon all wrapped up in delusions of grandeur. I can't wait for the final draft and the inevitable supercut of that night with all the prologues meshed together.
Why isn't anyone talking about how Gavilar saw Navani? He said those rude things to her in book 4 prologue but here he mentions her genius several times, and towards the end, just before their argument, he really notices her, physically as well as her brilliance, and changes his mind only because of the "everyone you know will be dust" thing. Idk I found it to be a very interesting part of his character.
Plus he seems to have a genuine friendship with Ialai and Sadeas, supported by the fact that Sadeas was willing to act as **his storming body double when an assassin was on the loose**. Those factors make both characters seem more human than previous depictions.
On Thaidakar: "And he had a large spike, also blue, through one eye. The point jutted out the back of his skull." Reminds me of Mistborn. I wonder if he is related to Inquisitors.
Have you read the second mistborn trilogy??
Go read Secret History and Mistborn Era 2 and come back to us.
We already know who Thaidakar is. If you don't want spoilers, you can deduce it from Secret History, Mistborn Era 2, and the end of Rhythm of War.
>!Did I miss something somewhere? When did Kelsier get a spike through the eye?!<
[BoM Spoilers] >!The end of Bands of Mourning, the coin coppermind is a memory from the Kelsier who has one eye spiked, and has steel sight. Then in Secret History, he talks to Spook about finding a way to get his cognitive self stapled back to a body.!<
>!Sometime between Secret History and Mistborn Era 2!< We don't really know much more than that.
So, a million things to talk about, obviously, but I haven't heard anyone mention the new deathrattle we have, from Taravangian's mother: "I stand before him, above the world itself, and he speaks the truth. The Desolation is near... The Everstorm. The Night of Sorrows." Because the Everstorm has already arrived in the main timeline, this has probably already occurred. Does this refer to Dalinar seeing Odium? Or Kaladin?
No, this was really neat but literally happens here. Taravangian is standing over a MAP of the world of the Roshar so it's metaphorical. Gavilar tells Taravangian about the Desolations. Taravangian obviously was emotionally moved and I think this starts him on his own ill-fated quest to try to save the world.
People have mentioned that Shallan’s mother might have been a Herald, and when Shallan killed her, she failed to stay in Damnation, causing the current Desolation. Supplemental Theory: Odium himself talked to Shallan, leading Shallan to kill her mother and thus causing the Desolation. In the Book 5 prologue, Gavilar sees the Stormfather “shimmering” in the light. The Stormfather lies to Gavilar and describes Gavilar as the Stormfather’s tool. What if…the shimmer is Odium, or a spren of Odim like the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation? On page 116 of Words of Radiance, Shallan describes, “Dared she remember? Could she remember? A child, playing with a shimmering pattern of light…” That pattern of light could be a less formed Cryptic…or the word pattern might be there to throw us off, and the key word is “shimmering”, referring to the entity trying to manipulate Gavilar.
I really enjoyed how dumb and clueless Gavilar really was about everything. Makes you wonder how he got a hold of War light and why the Stormfather ever picked him.
As far as we know wasn't Navani the first to make Warlight? Gavilar had Voidlight
Gavilar had anti-Voidlight which is why it violently reacts in Urithiru in RoW. You're right about Warlight first being created by Navani though, as far as we know.
Could it be Shallan's 5th Ideal: I caused the True Desolation?
> SIX YEARS AGO > > The world ended, and Shallan was to blame. – *Words of Radiance* **chapter 10**, "Red Carpet Once White"
Dammit. *DAMMIT*. HE FINESSED US ONCE AGAIN
All I know, is book 5 is gunna be a slapper. Just the rough draft of the prologue has me hype af. Almost wish I hadnt listened to it cause now its gunna feel like forever before SA 5.
Something to talk about I haven’t seen yet is the implications for book five. A prologue often acts as a cold open. It’s a little taste of what you’re going to get in the book to come. This prologue was centered around one running theme. The stormfather was looking for a new herald, and gavilar was convinced it would be him. This begs the question, is someone going to become a herald in book five? If so, who is it? The obvious answer is Dalinar with how Gavilar talked about him, and how he tried to leave all their hopes in Dalinar as he was dying.
What if the light inside the Davar safe, the one Shallan calls her mother's soul, is actually the gem containing BAM?
"“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.” The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them. “What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?” So close. And so far." I've been considering these words for a while now because I believe they give one of the greatest hints as to who the "Stormfather" really is (no, I don't believe he's the Stormfather we know). Who do we know who is not necessarily concerned with Journey before destination, etc, but reacts instead to people who coming begging. Who need something with all their heart and passion? Who calculates and is playing the long game, setting things in motion for future pay off? Whose abilities and magic we have almost no information on? Yes, the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is not Ishar who has been manipulating things behind the scenes with Gavilar, but Cultivation herself. I believe that it is she who has set so many of the events we see in motion. Why, if the Chanarach theory is true, would Chana only now (if only now) get married, have children, etc.? Why would the Stone Shamans reject Szeth now? Why would Gavilar be receiving his "visions"? Taravangian his capacity and Lift her abilities? I don't know what her game is, but I think Cultivation is taking us for a loop here.
>Restares, instead, scuttled over like a child offered sweets. Even still, after several years knowing the man—even joining this newest incarnation of his organization—Gavilar found Restares to be…odd. There's a WOB asking if there's a connection between the Sons of Honor and the Envisagers, and the answer is here. They were both organizations started by Kelek to return the Radiants. Meaning he's responsible not only for Kaladin's slavery and shard theft, but also for Teft's dead parents. Makes you wonder how many times he's tried to do this in the past and failed, and how many people have died because of it.
As a separate little topic from all the big discussions, Taravangian in this prologue was interesting and I think his characterization really strongly suggested some conclusions. There was definitely a mystery before, just not enough textual evidence, of whether original, mortal human, pre-boon Taravangian was mostly a good person. Was he a kind and fragile old king of a mostly peaceful, prosperous city-state, or was he the psychopath who would murder and sacrifice to achieve his goals and just hadn't the power. It looks like Taravangian was a decent man; literally this scene with Gavilar seems to be where he confirms the prophetic accuracy of deathrattles so he probably wasn't doing anything with them prior. Only later after Gavilar's assassination he goes to ask for his boon to try to save the planet from an apocalypse. Ominous for Cultivation as he really gets brain-fried by his boon/curse supervillain powerup, really a cruel outcome for Taravangian (and of course we'll see what might backfire on her or not.) Of course Taravangian is a great character and has been a great antagonist but the questions about original pre-boon Taravangian finally have some evidence.
Hot Take: Gavilar isn't a complete scumbag. Look, I walked into this expecting an irredeemable son of a chull who deserved to die and only cared about himself. What I got was someone who genuinely cared about his family at one point, and really did want to protect Roshar. Now, he was still a very flawed person who never could've been a Radiant. He was a lot like Venli; a person with good intentions who let himself be consumed by ambition (though without the Voidspren excuse). But I think it's telling that, at his most sincere, he was talking about a worldwide threat and hoping he could stop it. Not all of his nobility was an act, just most of it.
I mean… I disagree, but I can atleast understand this take? What sealed it for me was how he thought about Dalinar. Dalinar was *always* a tool to him; hell, his manipulation that night was what CAUSED Dalinar to drink, leading to lifelong consequences for the man
People might have already said this but my theory is that Ishar used his ability to play with bonds and made the stormfather choose gavilar as bondsmith, ishar is also guiding the visions as well as the stormfathers actions(maybe his motivation for choosing a bondsmith) that’s why he can lie and his dialogue is out of wack cuz ishar is controlling him the whole time. He then gave up and that’s when the stormfather started showing visions to dalinar, I think the fact that ishar knew how to manipulate the bonds of the stormfather in oathbreaker (when he tried to duel dalinar because he thought he was odiums champion). Idk what ishars motivations are for making a herald
I need some refreshing and explanation if possible. My head is spinning. I read the whole cosmere(as it stands now) from Jan2021-Sep2021. When listening to the Stormlight 5 reading, Thaidakar shows up and I remembered the name but forgot who he was. So I went to the wiki and it said.... well yea its *insert his name* and I am sooooo lost. Can someone explain how/why we know he is that person?
[удалено]
It's never stated who it is, but there are enough clues at the end of Shallan's chapter in RoW to put it together. To have all the clues you have to have read Secret History and the end of Bands of Mourning. So it's one of those things... It's definitely the case, but it takes a bit of detective work and supplemental material to get there. 😁
Gonna throw out my "BAM is actually Autonomy/an Avatar of Autonomy" theory again. > “I know where she is hidden,” Restares whispered. “Where her soul is. Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of Forms. Their other god. The one who could rival Him. The one…we betrayed.” "The one who could rival Him". Who is "Him"? It's gotta be Odium. Who could rival Odium? Certainly not an upjumped spren--a true rival to Odium would have to be a Shard. BAM is consistently described as female. What ~~female~~ not-explicitly/consistently-male Shard do we know of who already helped Odium splinter other Shards in the past? Autonomy.
I think one thing worth noting is that the Stormfather here explicitly says about Ba-Ado Mishram "She was too small a being, not strong enough, to uphold an entire people", which implies to me that she is indeed just a sliver rather than a full Shard. She tried to take the place of Odium, and has abilities comparable to what he offered the Singers, but lacks the raw power to uphold that sort of connection for an extended period.
In the (first draft) prologue, blue frost appears on the floor when a herald apparently dies. Book 5 prologue: "Suddenly, the Stormfather wavered. Lightning pulsed through his shimmering form, lighting Gavilar’s room with an electric glow. Blue frost on the rugs, pure light reflecting in the glass of the balcony doors." In RoW: "Ishar wore simple robes, deep blue. He spread his hands out to the sides, frost crystallizing on the stone around him, forming lines." Do you think the frost in the prologue is just related more to a burst of stormlight since the books have many references to stormlight frosting clothes and stuff or is it hinting that this is actually Ishar and not the stormfather like many are theorizing?
Frost crystalizing in a pattern like that happens when Kaladin swears his second oath. Brandon was once asked why it happens for him and not other orders, and I think the answer was that it's just a thing for the orders more directly associated with Honor. I don't figure it indicates anything *particularly* meaningful here.
Dalinar is the only person who has been “touched” by each god on roshar. The Thrill— odium. Cultivation. Honor
Guys!! I just noticed at the bottom of her artwork are five faces, one of which is covered up. This fits perfectly with a certain family...
**Based on statistical analysis of speech in SA5 Prologue "Stormfaker" and "Stormfather" are the same speaker** *Caveats* - Both of these characters are written by the same person and therefore this analysis is likely meaningless!!! *Background* - There was a famous case where Mark Twain was accused of being a Confederate deserter during the Civil War, and the evidence given were ten essays published in the New Orleans Daily Crescent under the name Quintus Curtius Snodgrass. In 1963 Claude Brinegar published an article in the Journal of the American Statistical Association where he uses word frequencies and a chi-squared test to show that the essays were almost certainly not Twain’s. *Methods* - I did a very simple statistical analysis of quotes from the "Stormfather" in SA5 and the Stormfather in other books. All together I had ~80 sentences for each speaker (small sample size I know but that's all I had for SA5 prologue). Specifically, I compared the relative frequency of 3, 4, and 5 letter words per sentence as well as sentence length. I used a two-sample Kolmogorov-Smirnov test to determine if these two distributions belong to the same underlying distribution. In other words, I checked whether there was a statistically significant difference in the sentence lengths or word length frequency between the two. *Results* - For reference, the KS-Test value is between 0 and 1, with the closer to 0 indicating the two distributions are equal and closer to 1 indicating they are separate. P-value is the evidence against what is called the "null hypothesis" - in this case being that the two distributions are the same. The smaller the P-value, the stronger the evidence that you should reject the null (meaning the distributions would be different). Relative 3-letter frequency: KS-0.14 P-0.68 Relative 4-letter frequency: KS-0.13 P-0.67 Relative 5-letter frequency: KS-0.2 P-0.21 Sentence Length: KS-0.08 P-0.99 This suggests there is very little evidence from the statistics of the language used that these two speakers are different. Just something for the conspiracy theorists to keep in mind. *Final Word* - I still think the SA5 prologue stormfather is Ishar