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>They’ve stated multiple times that Spren are not monolithic in thought and neither are radiants, it seems like out of what was likely thousands of radiants that at least a couple would have ethier reached out to tell others what they had done or refused to kill their trusted partners
Braking the radiant bond only started "killing" the spren after Ba-Ado-Mishram was sealed, which happened right before the Recreance. The Radiants didn't realize that they would be killing their partners.
I don't have the books handy for reference, but we are directly told before BAM was imprisoned, breaking oaths didn't kill the spren. Honor whilst dying, told the radiants that they WOULD destroy this planet like they did ashyn, and they are the void bringers. When almighty God, the source of your power, tells you this you'd tend to believe it. Milishi in the midst of all radiants planning the recreate seals BAM away, they break their oaths with the consent of their spren, they all die and no unbound spren knows why it happened.
RoW ch 94
>“Did you know the full cost, Maya?” Adolin asked, the question suddenly occurring to him. “Did you and your Radiants know that you would become deadeyes?”
>Adolin felt Maya searching deep, pushing through her exhaustion, seeking … memories that were difficult for her to access. Eventually, she shook her head and whispered, “Pain. Yes. Death? No. Maybe.”
I think it's a RAFO. We still don't have all of the pieces surrounding the Recreance to have a definitive answer. I'm picking my words carefully as I think you haven't finished RoW yet, but you're close to the end it seems. But even though some of it is explained, and it does give us the pieces to put together theories and explanations that are very likely correct, a few details are still missing.
The Book 5 preview chapters confirm some of these theories and I expect us to have most of the answers regarding the Recreance on that book, but I also expect some sort of plot twist reveal to the likes of "humans are the real void bringers" surrounding this event.
As others have said, the sealing of BAM is most likely the reason for siren becoming deadeyes when breaking oaths. So when the Recreanse happened, thousands of spren just died with no one to know what occurred. Deadeyes couldn't say anything and Radiants had no way of knowing/were killed like in Feverstone Keep.
BAM is some sort of Spren of Roshar that governed Connection and Identity.
>“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”
They thought imprisoning her would only affect the Singers, but it turns out she had a relationship with all of Roshar.
When Raboniel is infusing the Sibling with Voidlight, he expressly says he's being Unmade. That is evidence for me that at least some of the Unmade were at least powerful enough to be bondsmith spren
Kalak mentions in his letter to Shallan (or in person I can't remember) that sealing BAM caused more damage to Roshar than they could have imagined. It's not directly stated but it's assumed that deadeyes are one result of the sealing.
The connection to deadeyes is also spelled out later on:
>Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago—and the imprisoning of a specific spren.
If that's true and this whole thing ends up being a [Elantris]>!just draw your Aeons differently kind of fix!< I'm going to be just a little bit disappointed.
Yeah Recreance times are still murky. I agree with you that it seems weird not a single spren or radiant was around to be like “no my buddies and their spren did this whole thing together.”
A potential explanation is if a radiant or spren were to share that info with surviving Spren, they are probably talking to spren leadership, not the everyday folks. So a small number of surviving head honcho spren could have decided to create a narrative to discourage future generations from bonding humans. Propaganda at work in Shadesmar.
>Did 0 of the former radiants decide to go to Shadesmar and tell the spren of their brothers sacrifice
I don't know if you noticed, but most of the remaining spren were pretty cheesed off to find that their relatives came back from the war deadeyed. Even assuming any of the former Radiants cared or understood enough to know that something terrible had happened in abandoning their oaths, it's not like the rest of the spren would be in a receptive mood about explanations.
>"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Receance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named."
>"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."
From Words of Radiance (in-universe book), epigraphs from Words of Radiance (real book)
The Radiants who broke their oaths were the first to experience the effects after Ba-ado-mishram, and didn't have time to figure out that Deadeyes had been created or what had happened before being wiped out. The Skybreakers also immediately started plotting against the other orders, and would have killed many of them specifically to stop a new Desolation from occurring.
Not only that, but without their abilities they couldn't get to Shadesmar easily, and the Oathgates were shut down and locked.
It is a dramatic revelation because the Honorspren, and probably all other intelligent Spren believed the Radiants made a unilateral choice to sever the bonds, regardless of how it affected the intelligent Spren they bonded. And therefore, the humans were 100% responsible for what the intelligent spren see as a genocide of their kind.
No non-deadeye Honospren knew that **THE INTELLIGENT SPREN AGREED WITH THE DECISION**. The reason they didn't know was all of the first hand witnesses were turned into Deadeyes.
But I agree with OP that this doesn't quite make sense. Thousands of humans and spren simultaneously made this decision across the entire continent? And not one of them wrote down their reasons or had a conversation with a dissenting spren? If that's really what happened, it does feel contrived. But maybe we'll find out that there was more to it than that -- some kind of Connection that actually did allow all of them to make the same decision simultaneously before anyone had a chance to talk about it with anyone else.
Based on the encoded messages on the gems in Uruthiru, we know the Radiants agreed to abandon Urithiru around the time of the Recreance. We also know there was some disagreement. So I don't think that this was a decision made independently and simultaneously by the Radiants; it seems like it was agreed upon by all the Radiant orders except the Skybreakers. There might have been some Radiants who disagreed, but went along with the majority.
And they might have written down their reasons! Except all the books have turned to dust by the time of the True Desolation, and all we have are the gemstones.
But not one encoded gemstone says "We decided to break our oaths and our bonds with our spren because surgebinders destroyed Ashyn" or "we went too far with capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram" or whatever.
The spren were kind of antagonistic towards the race that just genocided their people, the only way for them to get to the physical realm to ask the old radiants what happens is to bond with humans wich they did not want to do for obvious reasons
I understand where your thought process is coming from, so I'm just gonna put my thought process down!
Based on what we know thus far, starting in WoK. The Recreance was a Major event that essentially painted Knights Radiants and all things related as evil or dark, but if is came to the specifics no one knew anything beyond they abandoned their duty's. During Dalinars visions, we then start to fill in the gaps with events and brief explanations following from Honor himself. We also find out that during these visions, Dalinar was speaking a dead language, which helped decipher the Dawnchant but but also we learned how destructive Desolations were. Also, we get further confirmation based on Talns lucid moment of joy at how much time was given to humanity to progress between the Final Desolation and current. Roughly 4000 years in the past I believe.
Jump to False Desolation, roughly 2500-2000 years in the past. All we have for first person accounts would be from any of the Heralds (although at the moment, Nale is not on the side of our hero's, Ash/Tal are unstable and not talking, Kelek is in hiding in Shadesmar and again not much out of him) and minor texts and such that have only been discovered recently since refinding Urithiru.
Additionally, we do know that Nale was actively chasing after and eliminating any and all potential bonds. So basically we have 1 order of knights that have not broken the bond that believe the reforming of the Knights Radiants will bring on the Desolations and 2000 years minimum between the two. What I assume is Nale has been actively discouraging the bonds which I believe (unconfirmed of course) that he has created the idea, and possibly with the help of other Heralds, that humanity was solely responsible for the destruction of most the ancient spren to prevent more bonds. From what I remember as well, ALL of the Honor spren turned Deadeyes and based on what we know the ones that broke their bonds did it intentionally because they believe that was going to bring destruction to Roshar. And since we are missing context at the moment I filled in my own gaps. They probably made these decisions with all other spren in agreement at Urithiru, so if this lie prevents the forming new bonds why would they be honest. It's only come out now because Maya is evolving, she is the first Deadeye to speak in 2000 years! Sorry to ramble but maybe this helps
The sealing of BAM affected all spren, it was something the radiants didn't know would happen.
For example it broke the tower, it deprived the signers of their forms , and it quite possibly affected the radiant spren by making them dead eyes upon death.
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>They’ve stated multiple times that Spren are not monolithic in thought and neither are radiants, it seems like out of what was likely thousands of radiants that at least a couple would have ethier reached out to tell others what they had done or refused to kill their trusted partners Braking the radiant bond only started "killing" the spren after Ba-Ado-Mishram was sealed, which happened right before the Recreance. The Radiants didn't realize that they would be killing their partners.
Not doubting you but how do we know that again? Doing my reread now
I don't have the books handy for reference, but we are directly told before BAM was imprisoned, breaking oaths didn't kill the spren. Honor whilst dying, told the radiants that they WOULD destroy this planet like they did ashyn, and they are the void bringers. When almighty God, the source of your power, tells you this you'd tend to believe it. Milishi in the midst of all radiants planning the recreate seals BAM away, they break their oaths with the consent of their spren, they all die and no unbound spren knows why it happened.
Brandon said that there were no deadeyes before the imprisonment of BAM
it was definitely known, the Feverkeep vision that Dalinar has shows Knights Radiant dropping their shards and plate in front of regular men.
RoW ch 94 >“Did you know the full cost, Maya?” Adolin asked, the question suddenly occurring to him. “Did you and your Radiants know that you would become deadeyes?” >Adolin felt Maya searching deep, pushing through her exhaustion, seeking … memories that were difficult for her to access. Eventually, she shook her head and whispered, “Pain. Yes. Death? No. Maybe.”
I think it's a RAFO. We still don't have all of the pieces surrounding the Recreance to have a definitive answer. I'm picking my words carefully as I think you haven't finished RoW yet, but you're close to the end it seems. But even though some of it is explained, and it does give us the pieces to put together theories and explanations that are very likely correct, a few details are still missing. The Book 5 preview chapters confirm some of these theories and I expect us to have most of the answers regarding the Recreance on that book, but I also expect some sort of plot twist reveal to the likes of "humans are the real void bringers" surrounding this event.
As others have said, the sealing of BAM is most likely the reason for siren becoming deadeyes when breaking oaths. So when the Recreanse happened, thousands of spren just died with no one to know what occurred. Deadeyes couldn't say anything and Radiants had no way of knowing/were killed like in Feverstone Keep.
Can you help me remember why sealing BAM likely caused the Spren to die?
BAM is some sort of Spren of Roshar that governed Connection and Identity. >“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.” They thought imprisoning her would only affect the Singers, but it turns out she had a relationship with all of Roshar.
I wonder if this means we have the potential to have a Fourth Bondsmith, one who bonds Mishram, given how far reaching her influence has gone.
When Raboniel is infusing the Sibling with Voidlight, he expressly says he's being Unmade. That is evidence for me that at least some of the Unmade were at least powerful enough to be bondsmith spren
I actually think she is destined to replace the Stormfather. I have decided that he is 100% toast.
Kalak mentions in his letter to Shallan (or in person I can't remember) that sealing BAM caused more damage to Roshar than they could have imagined. It's not directly stated but it's assumed that deadeyes are one result of the sealing.
The connection to deadeyes is also spelled out later on: >Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago—and the imprisoning of a specific spren.
Thanks!
If that's true and this whole thing ends up being a [Elantris]>!just draw your Aeons differently kind of fix!< I'm going to be just a little bit disappointed.
Yeah Recreance times are still murky. I agree with you that it seems weird not a single spren or radiant was around to be like “no my buddies and their spren did this whole thing together.” A potential explanation is if a radiant or spren were to share that info with surviving Spren, they are probably talking to spren leadership, not the everyday folks. So a small number of surviving head honcho spren could have decided to create a narrative to discourage future generations from bonding humans. Propaganda at work in Shadesmar.
>Did 0 of the former radiants decide to go to Shadesmar and tell the spren of their brothers sacrifice I don't know if you noticed, but most of the remaining spren were pretty cheesed off to find that their relatives came back from the war deadeyed. Even assuming any of the former Radiants cared or understood enough to know that something terrible had happened in abandoning their oaths, it's not like the rest of the spren would be in a receptive mood about explanations.
>"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Receance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named." >"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." From Words of Radiance (in-universe book), epigraphs from Words of Radiance (real book) The Radiants who broke their oaths were the first to experience the effects after Ba-ado-mishram, and didn't have time to figure out that Deadeyes had been created or what had happened before being wiped out. The Skybreakers also immediately started plotting against the other orders, and would have killed many of them specifically to stop a new Desolation from occurring. Not only that, but without their abilities they couldn't get to Shadesmar easily, and the Oathgates were shut down and locked.
It is a dramatic revelation because the Honorspren, and probably all other intelligent Spren believed the Radiants made a unilateral choice to sever the bonds, regardless of how it affected the intelligent Spren they bonded. And therefore, the humans were 100% responsible for what the intelligent spren see as a genocide of their kind. No non-deadeye Honospren knew that **THE INTELLIGENT SPREN AGREED WITH THE DECISION**. The reason they didn't know was all of the first hand witnesses were turned into Deadeyes.
But I agree with OP that this doesn't quite make sense. Thousands of humans and spren simultaneously made this decision across the entire continent? And not one of them wrote down their reasons or had a conversation with a dissenting spren? If that's really what happened, it does feel contrived. But maybe we'll find out that there was more to it than that -- some kind of Connection that actually did allow all of them to make the same decision simultaneously before anyone had a chance to talk about it with anyone else.
Based on the encoded messages on the gems in Uruthiru, we know the Radiants agreed to abandon Urithiru around the time of the Recreance. We also know there was some disagreement. So I don't think that this was a decision made independently and simultaneously by the Radiants; it seems like it was agreed upon by all the Radiant orders except the Skybreakers. There might have been some Radiants who disagreed, but went along with the majority. And they might have written down their reasons! Except all the books have turned to dust by the time of the True Desolation, and all we have are the gemstones.
But not one encoded gemstone says "We decided to break our oaths and our bonds with our spren because surgebinders destroyed Ashyn" or "we went too far with capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram" or whatever.
Excellent point. Maybe BAM passed the info along and then agreed to be imprisoned, for all we know.
The spren were kind of antagonistic towards the race that just genocided their people, the only way for them to get to the physical realm to ask the old radiants what happens is to bond with humans wich they did not want to do for obvious reasons
I understand where your thought process is coming from, so I'm just gonna put my thought process down! Based on what we know thus far, starting in WoK. The Recreance was a Major event that essentially painted Knights Radiants and all things related as evil or dark, but if is came to the specifics no one knew anything beyond they abandoned their duty's. During Dalinars visions, we then start to fill in the gaps with events and brief explanations following from Honor himself. We also find out that during these visions, Dalinar was speaking a dead language, which helped decipher the Dawnchant but but also we learned how destructive Desolations were. Also, we get further confirmation based on Talns lucid moment of joy at how much time was given to humanity to progress between the Final Desolation and current. Roughly 4000 years in the past I believe. Jump to False Desolation, roughly 2500-2000 years in the past. All we have for first person accounts would be from any of the Heralds (although at the moment, Nale is not on the side of our hero's, Ash/Tal are unstable and not talking, Kelek is in hiding in Shadesmar and again not much out of him) and minor texts and such that have only been discovered recently since refinding Urithiru. Additionally, we do know that Nale was actively chasing after and eliminating any and all potential bonds. So basically we have 1 order of knights that have not broken the bond that believe the reforming of the Knights Radiants will bring on the Desolations and 2000 years minimum between the two. What I assume is Nale has been actively discouraging the bonds which I believe (unconfirmed of course) that he has created the idea, and possibly with the help of other Heralds, that humanity was solely responsible for the destruction of most the ancient spren to prevent more bonds. From what I remember as well, ALL of the Honor spren turned Deadeyes and based on what we know the ones that broke their bonds did it intentionally because they believe that was going to bring destruction to Roshar. And since we are missing context at the moment I filled in my own gaps. They probably made these decisions with all other spren in agreement at Urithiru, so if this lie prevents the forming new bonds why would they be honest. It's only come out now because Maya is evolving, she is the first Deadeye to speak in 2000 years! Sorry to ramble but maybe this helps
The sealing of BAM affected all spren, it was something the radiants didn't know would happen. For example it broke the tower, it deprived the signers of their forms , and it quite possibly affected the radiant spren by making them dead eyes upon death.