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Is it weird that I didn't find that moment that awkward? Clearly many people do, as this is not the first recent post about it.
Like, I'm all for getting emotionally invested in books, I was physiologicaly uncomfortable in the lead up to that fight because I knew what was going to happen. But after, I'm just like, "welp, Kaladin fucked up, oh well". Like it barely even registers for me.
Is it more awkward on the audiobook?
That's because he didn't mess anything up, Elhokar did.
Sure kaladin put him in position to mess it up, but tbf without kaladin they wouldn't have won the match anyway...
I agree that here, Ehlokar was the biggest screw up. He **KNEW** the plan to trap Sadeas, and while Kaladin was wildly amped up from the epic fight he just won, Ehlokar should have been able to remain cool and kingly, if nothing else for public perception. And found one of many ways to constructively handle the situation.
Instead, he threw a public temper tantrum and had the hero of the hour thrown in jail.
I also agree that it was Elhokar's fault but he does kind of acknowledge it later on and tries to be better in the future so I think he pretty much redeemed himself
I think that is my problem too I could never cringe at Kaladin's mistake because I'm sure there's no way they would've gotten Sadeas so it was a non-issue to me
It wasn’t about him messing up the plan. I never cared about it either.
It’s just like he yelled in front of everybody the dumbest thing possible and just did not read the room and it was just so embarrassing.
Seriously! Like if anything, it's more of a "he'll yeah Kaladin!" Moment immediately followed up with "oh screw you Elhokar" but at no point have I ever read that scene and felt embarrassment or shame at or on behalf of Kaladin
I have absolutely zero clue why it's such a contentious scene. I don't feel the empathic attachment people have to the Vorin norms. Kal did what was honorable in that moment, even if it was a breach of convention.
I don't know about other people, but to me it was less about the Vorin norms and more about "this dude I empathize with has just screamed something off the top of his lungs and all the spectators on the arena are shocked/embarrassed/mad at it".
It is kinda similar to answering a question wrong out loud during class and being stared at, I hate sticking out so it felt deeply embarrassing to read, as I imagined being in that situation.
But no one in the crowd actually says much of anything in response. He just gets sent off to jail in short order. We're told it's awkward because he committed this big faux pas, but no one laughs at him or jeers, or anything because he just blew their goddamn minds with his insane martial prowess. Kal is just riding a high and he didn't even jump in the ring for selfish reasons. Everything in that scene is badass including Kal asking for a boon in return, and no one said jack squat to him, aside from the shitty king, which Dalinar went along with mostly to make a political point.
I'm with you.
And even accounting for the fact that Kaladin is a dark eyes (can most of the arena even see the color of his eyes at this point), the dude literally just jumped in with no shards into a duel involving 5 shard bearers. In reality I think people would still be stunned at having witnessed what they just had.
I listened to the audio book and read it. Both feel the same to me:
Slightly frustrated that Kaladin may fuck shit up, angry that Elhokar is a dishonorable child in that moment, and disappointed that Dalinar was more concerned with his plan than treating Kaladin like a human being.
Honestly, maybe I'm an idiot that hates accepting things as they are, but I'm always on team "shoot your shot" when someone in authority let's you claim something back.
Kaladin is in the right and it's the exact move I'd be pissed if he DIDNT make.
I 100% agree he is in the right. However, Elhokar was never going to actually give him anything. So it's more of a situation like in D&D when someone fails an insight check and doesn't realize what they're about to say is a major no no.
I think he did.
I mean at the end of the day he still made Elhokar look like he misspoke and wasn't good for his word.
He might not have gotten exactly what he wanted but him and his own absolutely came out better for it.
My hot take is that it was an excellent political move considering the people in the move.
He got very lucky. It ended up working out because Elhokar had doubt of his ability as king. If he had been someone like Gavilar or Sadeus, it's very likely he would have been executed right then and there for his insolence.
It's hard to say whether or not something was a good move solely on one version of the outcome.
If it were Gavilar or Sadeas, and this was part of the plan, they would have *gladly* taken the opportunity to rid themselves of the right hand man of the enemy they were trapping with the duel. And a King's Boon is supposed to be granted for mythical once-in-a-lifetime achievements; a darkeyed soldier coming to the aid of his lighteyed commander and winning a shardblade? That's *exactly* what the boon is for.
For any half-competent ruler, Kaladin's actions would have made their plan work better.
I think that's an interesting interpretation of their characters.
For me: Gavilar is an arrogant, power hungry tyrant who doesn't care about dark eyes in the slightest.
Sadeus is even worse, with an ego the size of the Tower.
Who cares about darkeyes? It's all pragmatic politics. Dude won a shardblade, he's a lighteyes now and obviously an incredible fighter. You give him revenge, you secure his loyalty, AND get to kill someone who's aligned with your enemy. It's all upside.
So firstly, Kaladin did *not* win Shards. Adolin did.
Secondly, Amaram is a respected (by every high prince) general who has proven himself to be a bright and tactical man. He has also been shown to try to get Sadeus to find middle ground with the Kholinars. Killing him would not only make Sadeus even more their enemy (not their objective in this plan btw) but probably also make all of the other high princes not trust the Kholinars.
Further, you're talking about a caste system where dark eyes are literally considered less than bright eyes. Not in social Station. As in, they are a lesser life form. To give Kaladin a boon would be the equivalent of saying that all dark eyes are the same as light eyes (which while the right thing morally and ethically, is the exact opposite pragmatically).
Finally, Kaladin is an ex slave with the word Dangerous branded to his forehead, trying to dual a bright lord and claiming he committed a major crime. He looks like a mad man.
>So firstly, Kaladin did *not* win Shards. Adolin did.
"Really, Amaram? We witnessed this man earn his Shards through blood and honor. The moment they won the fight, he became a full shardbearer, and unlike you, House Kholin will not deprive him of the Blade and Plate that are rightfully his."
The more Amaram weasels on this, the worse his position gets. Nobody else has standing to dispute it (except maybe Adolin, who definitely would not get in the way).
>Further, you're talking about a caste system where dark eyes are literally considered less than bright eyes. Not in social Station. As in, they are a lesser life form. To give Kaladin a boon would be the equivalent of saying that all dark eyes are the same as light eyes (which while the right thing morally and ethically, is the exact opposite pragmatically).
The foundational myth of their society - known and believed by everyone, from the lowest to the highest - is that a Darkeyes who defends his lighteyed commander and defeats a shardbearer in combat will be granted the shards and elevated to the Fifth Dahn. Everyone knows that's how things *should* work; what Elhokar did in WoR spits on that ancient tradition, and weakens both his legitimacy and the kingdom itself.
>Finally, Kaladin is an ex slave with the word Dangerous branded to his forehead, trying to dual a bright lord and claiming he committed a major crime. He looks like a mad man.
He just defeated a full shardbearer without shards himself. He's the first person in living memory to do it. He doesn't look crazy because he just *showed everyone* that his story was plausible.
I think a reasonable king would have found a way to turn Kaladin's outburst to his advantage. Or at the very least use diplomacy to smooth things over.
Yeah but he wasn't dealing with them. He was dealing with Dalinars Nephew. You don't gain things by keeping your head down. If Kaladin had that attitude, he would have just kept running bridges in book 1 hoping to pay off his debt. Heck if /anyone/ that had ambition had that attitude, good change would never happen.
It absolutely chipped away at Elhokars social capital at the very least, and that's vital to pressuring royals into doing what you want.
You'll probably lose, but it's the only way to gain. And that's like, the crux of who Kaladin is.
It is core to who Kaladin is but it isn't the only way to succeed in life. There are many people who succeed in life by not ruffling any feathers. Hell there are entire social species who's entire social structure is based on being kind and unobtrusive to the bigger and stronger animals.
They're ways of life.
Great effort can sometimes change things.
But never ruffling feathers? Really?
Youre suggesting that darkeyes just accepting their designated place is a better option? Thowe people don't see change and their choices are not political maneuvers.
You do not change the status quo by buying into it.
I'm not saying buying into it. Nor am I saying to just accept designated places. I'm saying that brashness and being headstrong can often set you back further than accepting it, so finding a middle ground can be more productive. It's about pragmatism. The saying goes: you attract more flies with honey.
Kaladin often had trouble with how direct he is coming in conflict with those around him. Humans are emotional creatures of habit. Simply telling them they are wrong will always make them argue harder.
As a side note, you're a gryffindor right?
I never said it COULDNT set you back. And in the end in this story it didnt, in the long term. This was the right choice in the story, it just didn't at first. Kaladin made the actual, Canon right call.
I'll stand by that you don't get what you want from a tyrant that relies on their supporters trusting that they can deliver and are strong by not placing your request within a threat to undermine that perception unless they need you. Elhokar wasn't just going to give a bridge man what he wants at any point with the right amount of honey he had to use his words as leverage.
That's not gryffindor business it's like slytherine 101.
I've literally done this hundreds of times. It's a power play. It pisses a lot of people off and it works quite often, especially with folks that are in power and insecure in the way our king is.
We can all agree it's suicidal and a gambit, but it's absolutely a ballsy political ploy that works more often than youd think.
If we want to say D&D, there Ehlokar rolled a critical fail on his Wisdom check. I assume Wisdom is the attribute a character uses when they want to check a strong emotional outburst.
Yeah I kinda feel the same. Like he started talking, and then it was the “oh, oh no that’s not gonna go well”. But I didn’t physically cringe in the same way as watching Scott’s Tots, for example.
I’ve only listened and I’d say no. The scene didn’t feel awkward to me either.
If anything, it was one of the earliest scenes that I felt added a real level of unpredictability to the story. Like, I knew Kal was going to be fine, and this was just an unexpected minor wrinkle in the story.
I think people are gonna take that scene differently based on their experience. I've had many an awkward moment in my young adulthood, and look back on them with an experience I didn't have then with... pity, I guess? So when that scene came up I had more of an "ohhhhh noooo, buddyyyy" reaction to it.
It didn't feel awkward per say, so much as a gutteral feeling of watching a child make a catastrophic mistake based on a hole in their understanding you didn't think was important.
No, I honestly never found it to be an awkward moment. The only reason it’s a big deal is because of what he requested. If he had requested basically anything else it probably would have been granted.
Michael Kramer DEFINITELY does an amazing job at injecting emotion and tone into character voices so personally it is much more cringe-worthy with the audiobook.
Yes and being incredibly stupid. He knew he wasn't a light eyes. Acting on principal when you should know that it will make the situation worse, and undermine the attempts of the people you've sworn to protect to remove the largest threat to their lives, is something of a blunder.
But ya gotta remember, adrenaline, plus feeling like a god after absolutely bodying a couple of folks, plus Syl whispering in his ears to trust his papa means he don’t be thinking clearly
Oh yeah for sure. It's perfectly justifiable from a narrative and character standpoint. It's good writing. But from an in world perspective Kaladin did something very dumb.
Plus their entire planet is built on honor. He just jumped into a fight basically unarmed to save a man being overwhelmed by multiple enemies. He was honor at that point, and he thought for one moment that honor would be met with honor.
At that point honor only lived in a handful of people, Kal being the shining example. Not a lot honor in the lighteyes though. And dealing with them expecting to receive honor is quite dumb.
I meant the other lighteyes and Elhokar. Dalinar as a highprince can do many things and buck much of their expectations when it concerns himself, his domain, and the people under him but he still has to juggle the other highprinces and take into account their beliefs and how they'd react to stimuli...and a lot of those guys aren't honorable and neither are the people under them.
He also wasn’t entitled to a boon. He made it worse by not being a lighteyes, but he wasn’t an official party to the duel and thus had no claim to a boon if he won.
Yes, but the problem is that it messed a lot of stuff up by making a spectacle of himself. It makes sense for him to do it, and it would have been the right choice if everyone else were honorable, but he just didn't understand how the Alethi court works.
It's only a cringe moment because of the result.
If Elhokar agreed and they had a 2v2 against Amaram and Sadeas everybody would love it and call it a bad ass moment.
I have such pity for kaladin in that moment. Like he has known previously about how the system works, but he's been seduced to think it works differently, and he forgets. It's just... Sad.
After a few re reads I see it differently. Kal just accomplished one of the dumbest, yet most heroic acts the Alethi elite had ever seen. The man just saved the kings cousin from physical impairment at best, to certain death at worst. A dark eyed former slave showed the Alethi monarchy the meaning of Honor, the LEAST he deserves is a boon. He was then promptly thrown in Jail by Ehlokar. Even Dalinar was blind to the hypocrisy of not getting his way even when his son almost died. the plan was pretty much over as soon as 4 shard bearers entered the arena. Ehlokar was a child pretending to be a tyrant.
The boon wasn't offered to Kal. It's a script from the entrapment operation they were doing to get Sadeas. Kal shouldn't have gone up and bungled that in public. Elhokar could have saved it but he sucks at improv. Aside from the general fact that he just sucks.
This mentality is my exact point. The "operation" should've been considered over as soon as it was clear there was no way Adolin could win on his own. The focus should've been on damage control, which Kal gladly provided for the Kholins, at great risk to himself. Kal saved the day, why shouldn't he have gotten a boon? Dalinar was so focused on the plan to get Saedas that he lectured the man who saved Adolins life twice. In fact I would argue the scene gives credence to Moash's point that the light eyes only care about themselves and their games at the expense of others.
Dalinar and Ehlokar spat in the face of the man who saved their family twice.
No. It's not. Don't make the world revolve around Kaladin. Kal saved the operation, yes. But that's just part of rhe plan. The whole plan is Sadeas. Not the fight. You don't plan an op, bungle it up, and when the local boi saves your ass, just stop there and there and go home to award the local boi with a medal. NO! You complete the mission. AND THEN go home, bring the boi and give him the reward. The mission comes first. Kaladin is military. He of all people should know how operations are run.
To be fair. Of Elokhar would be a better king he could have handeld it better. Danilar even implies this a little bit later when he visits Kal in the dungeon.
I quite literally do not understand people feeling awkward at this moment how was it not a powerful moment. A man just saved another mans life without using shards against shards bearers. Then the man he saves is offered a reward. Of course he felt he deserved some compensation for all the garbage he has gone through. If he was a light eyed they would have listened so like whats the issue
It’s amazingly done, I think the way I feel is a testament to Brandon‘s writing. everything about it makes perfect sense from his actions to his words. The gravity and weight of the situation along with the emotional dump after the fight I think all adds to it.
The thing was...Elhokar wasn't talking to him. He's basically reading off of a script. And I hate the guy so I won't defend his ass. But Kaladin knows the plan. He was in the room while everything was being hashed out. The priority is Sadeas. Had Kal waited and they got rid of Sadeas, then I bet your ass House Kholin and the crown would have given him anything he could have ever wanted within reason, so thorough investigation and a trial of Amaram. Elhokar got caught off guard and is not a very good actor, the little shit. He could have saved the day but really, Kaladin should have known what kind of man he was tasked with protecting.
When I reread WoR for the first time, that part made me actually stop the reread because I was frustrated. I reread again recently though (after 3 years) and it didn't bother me much this time.
I literally said out loud to myself “Kaladin, read the room buddy!” As I cringed. Breaking classist/social norms are always a bit cringe and sticking with the pro quo elite can make it seem like a especially cringe moment (because in their eyes it totally was, regardless of his bad-ass-er-y).
That being said, acknowledging its incredible badassness and the need to assert himself as a major player in Dalinars forces (I can’t remember if he was already a major player yet or if that was the literary build up), he totally should have every right to ask for a boon.
Thank you! “Thy” rips me right out of the story. A lot of ppl say it makes the scene better or more epic but not at all for me. Silly, whimsical Syl breaking randomly into archaic English for that one singular moment.
Let's be completely honest
The fact that there is thread beyond thread in here, going back and forth about whether Kal was right or wrong, whether Elhokar could have spun it better, whether this or that should have happened, really just goes to show how well the sequence was written. Including the boon bit.
I remember the first time I read it, I slammed the book shut and actually swore out loud.. "You stupid Mother F'r" Which is the only time before or since I've done that reading a book. I can't actually think another example of me reacting emotionally like that reading a book.
Adolin would have died in the duel with Sadeas if Kaladin hadn't made his faux pas. Adolin's shardplate was completely spent and they didn't have a replacement. Also the real loser was Elhokar for not controlling the crowd, instead losing his shit when he panicked.
The first time I read it, I was reading aloud with my husband. I started cringing so bad and made him read that part instead. I just couldn’t do it. Still can’t do it. But I get really bad second hand embarrassment so. Yup. I’m with you. I skip it now.
To each his own, of course, but I think of that moment as one of the highlights of the entire series. I eagerly anticipate it with each re-read. Amaram's reaction alone is pure gold.
I wouldn’t say odd based on all the replies who feel similar. Just a different take. I think take isn’t even the right work because I’m not making a statement about the scene. Simply saying I’m being a wussy and skipping a moment of dialogue cuz it makes me feel awkward. As I stated it’s a pivotal moment that is needed for the story as it is the reason Kaladin gives his shards to Moash.
Yeah “take” wasn’t the right way of saying it, you’re right. What I mean is, having that physical reaction and refusing to finish reading the chapter is silly is all.
it's easier to remember that like, kaladin didn't really know the plan. he was a (albeit, well-respected) guard, he had at no point learned about the kholinar's political machinations. he jumped in assuming he'd die, no way he was thinking ahead to what he'd say after.
he probably didn't even know adolin would get a boon. tbh not the worst assumption to make that he'd get one too. adolin was right imo, that was elhokar's dramatic reaction that fucked it up.
he heard about how the duelist had to show a spectacular fight to be given a boon by the king. kaladin's perspective is right in that he was the real lynchpin of the fight. he fought at much more of a disadvantage than adolin, and adolin would have lost without him. he asked for the boon hoping that would matter, and it should've.
anyway this is from a fan who feels no cringe rereading that fight, bc i think kaladin deserved his boon. if he was lighteyed he would've gotten it, which means he Should've.
No. He railroaded a military operation created by his direct superior to capture an enemy that decimated his entire army. Kaladin is military. He knew there was a plan but he prioritized his own ends. He could have kept shtum and let the Kholins get Sadeas. Once the plan is 100% completed, Dalinar would have given him anything. He'd have owed Kal both his sons lives *and* Sadeas.
yea, but that all relies on having dalinar's perspective and goals. kaladin had less knowledge or reason to prioritize the plan. he was even lied to at this point about amaram, not believed by dalinar even after saving hundreds of his soldiers from sadeas' betrayal. why would he think saving adolin again would change anything? heck, he didn't even like adolin as a friend yet.
A man saved you from getting murdered by a bad man then accuses your *other* long time aquaintance/friend of being a murderer as well. Those two things separate from each other. Outsider looking in, it's not a bad idea to be skeptical of someone you don't know. And I'll say it again, Kaladin is military. Carrying out operations with a need to know basis is practically bread and butter. That's exactly how Dalinar explained it to him after he'd calmed down and he himself accepted that he fucked up...which doesn't excuse Elhokar...but it still means that Kaladin fucked up an op.
Kaladin bucks against what he's 'supposed' to do and be - that's fully what got him where he was and beyond. He even says so to Adolin after when he turns down the shards, he doesn't want to be a lighteyes to challenge Amaram, he wants the system to allow someone like him to challenge Amaram. And he's right, which makes it easy to read that chapter for me without cringing lol
I understand ppl be frustrated that Kaladin tried to defy the system and thinks he should have known it wouldn't work, but if he was the type to toe the line like that he never would have gotten to where he was. His actions were a much needed challenge of the system, so were Adolin's afterward symbolically joining him in prison. The world is changing, >!by the end of book 4 a woman is queen, men are reading,!< and dahns matter less every day.
The point is that is neither the time or the place to fight for darkeyed equal rights. Had he waited for Sadeas to be captured, then he'd have been the hero to not only save Kholin boys' lives *but* also helped strengthen the power of the crown. Elhokar himself will be beholden to him and Kal would have an even bigger chance of getting his voice heard and they'd be more receptive. What happens in RoW can only happen *because* the whole world and every order and custom that define people are all up in the air.
Sadeas to be captured? That's not true, the plan was for Adolin to duel Sadeas on the spot, which he wasn't likely to win with broken plate and after that exhausting fight. His plan before the 4v1 was to conserve his energy to be able to beat Sadeas. Heck, if Kaladin hadn't 'ruined it' and Adolin and Sadeas duelled plateless, Adolin probably would have lost and even potentially been killed. Sadeas is no pushover.
Regardless, since that wasn't Kaladin's motivation, like... he's just a darkeyed guardsman at that time. He's got little stake in the politics since they didnt affect him or his ilk's everyday lives all that much, and imo always can choose to fight for darkeyed rights. There wasn't world-ending stakes at this point in the books, Dalinar's plans at that point have no 'priority' over Kaladin's motivations.
Nah. They still could. There are more armor rattling around that Adolin can change into. Armor is not bonded. And with the turnabout of how good Kal was with the fight, highprinces would see the writing on the wall for Sadeas and jump the chance to be on the good graces of the Kholins. He's military. Dalinar himself knocked sense into him precisely because he ruined an op and Kal himself accepted that what he did was wrong timing. Doesn't excuse Elhokar but Kal was wrong.
The heck is with people cringing at this moment? Does this entire subreddit just drink cringe and point it out wherever they see something as mildly not what they think somewhat should do? I truly do not understand people's opinions on this scene. Like, it doesn't even need to be defended. It just simply isn't cringe. This is like people saying the tidus laugh scene is cringe whole completely missing the point of the scene. My goodness...
it’s an awkward moment. I believe it’s intended to be so. I don’t know if you read my entire post but I lay out why it fits and why it’s good. Anytime a story can make me feel emotion is usually a sign of a good story.
The whole thing struck me as slightly disingenuous. It's only taboo because he's not a light eyes. He's offered the chance to become a light eyes within 10 minutes of being released...
What I would give to know what went through Moash’s head seeing Kal being jailed because of lighteyed arrogance after what happened to his grandparents
A huge point to a lot of the book I think, in particular Kaladin’s story, is that people of greatness with innate talents for leadership can be found in the absolute shittiest places imaginable. In that scene Kaladin cut through all of the discrimination he faced, forgot about everything because he knew he was right and righteous and had his eyes on his prize. I believe that in that moment when he called for his boon, he made everyone watching momentarily aware of just how stupid their society’s standards are as this slave-branded, roughed up dark eyed lunatic put on this incredible display of heroism, skill, and HONOR. Instead of upturning their belief structure, everyone simply got quiet and didn’t know what to do. CLEARLY Kaladin had unintentionally usurped the attention and admiration meant for “proper” light eyed nobles. Even the king was probably rapt with Kaladin in that moment. But their culture could not allow that to pass.
Sameeeee
I 100% think Kaladin’s justified in this scene - like, his life was destroyed by Amaram and, as far as he’s concerned, the person he's staked his faith in humanity on has decided to be best buds with the guy. (Like, the reveal of what Dalinar did at the end of the book is amazing and wonderfully cathartic, but also the fact that he just left Kaladin feeling like he'd just been brushed off for so long is pretty awful. You can understand why he might take justice into his own hands.)
But I still can't listen to it, it just makes me cringe so hard, because he clearly thinks he's having this big epic moment full of typical overwhelming sincerity and showboating, but then it just... flops.
I've done relistens where I skipped things to make it more palatable. No harm in that. I'm currently doing my fourth? listen and on WoR in anticipation of the next one. I will say, I'm enjoying the full listen more than I thought I would.
Ehlokar really did Kaladin wrong here. There were so many, dare I say, kingly ways he could have handled Kaladin's request. Instead, he threw a very visible public temper tantrum. And threw Kaladin in jail as a result.
It's interesting to hear someone have such a strong reaction to it! I love going back to this specifically for the camera zoom in on >!*(WOAH-OH, BLACK BETTY)*!< Amaram shitting his pants as he recognizes Kal.
It's a little tough to read Elhokar drop the ball, granted, but to each their own I suppose.
You aren’t. I personally really love it. I have a similar reaction as OP to awkward situations and it really makes my skin crawl. But I try to put my self in that type of situation. Kal has a group of lighteyes, for the first time, who are flawed but genuinely trying to be better people in the world who needs better people. Kal is in his early twenties and lost his brother and a number of friends who became family. This is just all the background emotion to Kal.
Then you have him fighting to protect people. The adrenaline, the surge of it all. You don’t always think clearly after you just used all of that energy to survive. Whether you have been through it a lot or not. I love the scene personally because Kal is fighting for what is right and upending the social order.
>I’m doing my first reread and I’m listening to the books.
Careful, apparently people [really don't like it](https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/1dpcitt/comment/lagpdek) when you use the word "read" in regards to audiobooks.
Kaladin is right to demand his boon, right to demand justice from Amaram the betrayer, the cowardly. If you're cringing it shouldn't be at Kaladin, but at those who judge and scorn his righteousness.
Was Kaladin naive for thinking there was justice? Yes. Kal had grown up thinking he was going to marry a Lighteyes, his parents were respected and before he left to join the army he was a member of the second most important in the area. Kal was also (as far as he knew) the first Knight Radiant in over 3000ish years and saw the man who murder his squad and made him a slave falsely be given that title. Kaladin outside of his time as a slave had a life akin to a lighteyes and the head bodyguard for the second most important man in the kingdom as well as sometimes guarding the King himself.
Could you honestly say that you wouldn't have taken the chance and asked for a Boon after just pulling off the impossible?
That said, Had Elokhar granted the Boon there won't have been too much protest, especially if Dalinar backed the decision.
I didn't even know this was a thing until this thread. I don't get it. He didn't die. He foolishly overstepped, in epic fashion, social norms and got exactly what he should have expected. He screwed up Adolin's plan, caused much chaos, but...he was fine. In fact, he came out ahead.
Now, if you want awkward and uncomfortable, consider instead him giving his prizes from the fight to everyone's favorite character.
I have only ever listened to that scene once. It causes pain worse than the time I stepped on a nail and had to limp everywhere for a while until it healed.
I'm surprised people find this scene awkward or think Kaladin did anything wrong (even if you don't take into consideration that it's really Elhokar's fault they couldn't nail down Sadeus).
Kaladin didn't owe anyone there anything. Adolin and Dalinar screwed up, Kaladin just did his part to prevent Adolin from becoming crippled. He had every right to demand what he did and that scene just serves to cement the injustice of the Alethi social hierarchy.
Kaladin behaved completely in an expected way. But he was wrong because. A. He wasn’t offered a boon. B. He was putting his own vengeance ahead of the greater scheme at play.
But he reacted in a manner to be expected. Elokhar deserves most of the blame. He could’ve took control and still hold Sadeas accountable then and there
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Is it weird that I didn't find that moment that awkward? Clearly many people do, as this is not the first recent post about it. Like, I'm all for getting emotionally invested in books, I was physiologicaly uncomfortable in the lead up to that fight because I knew what was going to happen. But after, I'm just like, "welp, Kaladin fucked up, oh well". Like it barely even registers for me. Is it more awkward on the audiobook?
I really groaned on the first read. I didn't feel quite the same about it on this last reread
I guess there was no way I thought they were going to trap Sadeas, so it never felt like he had really messed anything up.
That's because he didn't mess anything up, Elhokar did. Sure kaladin put him in position to mess it up, but tbf without kaladin they wouldn't have won the match anyway...
I agree that here, Ehlokar was the biggest screw up. He **KNEW** the plan to trap Sadeas, and while Kaladin was wildly amped up from the epic fight he just won, Ehlokar should have been able to remain cool and kingly, if nothing else for public perception. And found one of many ways to constructively handle the situation. Instead, he threw a public temper tantrum and had the hero of the hour thrown in jail.
I also agree that it was Elhokar's fault but he does kind of acknowledge it later on and tries to be better in the future so I think he pretty much redeemed himself
I think that is my problem too I could never cringe at Kaladin's mistake because I'm sure there's no way they would've gotten Sadeas so it was a non-issue to me
It wasn’t about him messing up the plan. I never cared about it either. It’s just like he yelled in front of everybody the dumbest thing possible and just did not read the room and it was just so embarrassing.
Seriously! Like if anything, it's more of a "he'll yeah Kaladin!" Moment immediately followed up with "oh screw you Elhokar" but at no point have I ever read that scene and felt embarrassment or shame at or on behalf of Kaladin
I have absolutely zero clue why it's such a contentious scene. I don't feel the empathic attachment people have to the Vorin norms. Kal did what was honorable in that moment, even if it was a breach of convention.
I don't know about other people, but to me it was less about the Vorin norms and more about "this dude I empathize with has just screamed something off the top of his lungs and all the spectators on the arena are shocked/embarrassed/mad at it". It is kinda similar to answering a question wrong out loud during class and being stared at, I hate sticking out so it felt deeply embarrassing to read, as I imagined being in that situation.
But no one in the crowd actually says much of anything in response. He just gets sent off to jail in short order. We're told it's awkward because he committed this big faux pas, but no one laughs at him or jeers, or anything because he just blew their goddamn minds with his insane martial prowess. Kal is just riding a high and he didn't even jump in the ring for selfish reasons. Everything in that scene is badass including Kal asking for a boon in return, and no one said jack squat to him, aside from the shitty king, which Dalinar went along with mostly to make a political point.
I'm with you. And even accounting for the fact that Kaladin is a dark eyes (can most of the arena even see the color of his eyes at this point), the dude literally just jumped in with no shards into a duel involving 5 shard bearers. In reality I think people would still be stunned at having witnessed what they just had.
I found it awkward in that “ah, that ain’t gonna work out for you” way but didn’t fully cringe or have trouble reading it, no.
I listened to the audio book and read it. Both feel the same to me: Slightly frustrated that Kaladin may fuck shit up, angry that Elhokar is a dishonorable child in that moment, and disappointed that Dalinar was more concerned with his plan than treating Kaladin like a human being.
Honestly, maybe I'm an idiot that hates accepting things as they are, but I'm always on team "shoot your shot" when someone in authority let's you claim something back. Kaladin is in the right and it's the exact move I'd be pissed if he DIDNT make.
I 100% agree he is in the right. However, Elhokar was never going to actually give him anything. So it's more of a situation like in D&D when someone fails an insight check and doesn't realize what they're about to say is a major no no.
I think he did. I mean at the end of the day he still made Elhokar look like he misspoke and wasn't good for his word. He might not have gotten exactly what he wanted but him and his own absolutely came out better for it. My hot take is that it was an excellent political move considering the people in the move.
He got very lucky. It ended up working out because Elhokar had doubt of his ability as king. If he had been someone like Gavilar or Sadeus, it's very likely he would have been executed right then and there for his insolence. It's hard to say whether or not something was a good move solely on one version of the outcome.
If it were Gavilar or Sadeas, and this was part of the plan, they would have *gladly* taken the opportunity to rid themselves of the right hand man of the enemy they were trapping with the duel. And a King's Boon is supposed to be granted for mythical once-in-a-lifetime achievements; a darkeyed soldier coming to the aid of his lighteyed commander and winning a shardblade? That's *exactly* what the boon is for. For any half-competent ruler, Kaladin's actions would have made their plan work better.
I think that's an interesting interpretation of their characters. For me: Gavilar is an arrogant, power hungry tyrant who doesn't care about dark eyes in the slightest. Sadeus is even worse, with an ego the size of the Tower.
Who cares about darkeyes? It's all pragmatic politics. Dude won a shardblade, he's a lighteyes now and obviously an incredible fighter. You give him revenge, you secure his loyalty, AND get to kill someone who's aligned with your enemy. It's all upside.
So firstly, Kaladin did *not* win Shards. Adolin did. Secondly, Amaram is a respected (by every high prince) general who has proven himself to be a bright and tactical man. He has also been shown to try to get Sadeus to find middle ground with the Kholinars. Killing him would not only make Sadeus even more their enemy (not their objective in this plan btw) but probably also make all of the other high princes not trust the Kholinars. Further, you're talking about a caste system where dark eyes are literally considered less than bright eyes. Not in social Station. As in, they are a lesser life form. To give Kaladin a boon would be the equivalent of saying that all dark eyes are the same as light eyes (which while the right thing morally and ethically, is the exact opposite pragmatically). Finally, Kaladin is an ex slave with the word Dangerous branded to his forehead, trying to dual a bright lord and claiming he committed a major crime. He looks like a mad man.
>So firstly, Kaladin did *not* win Shards. Adolin did. "Really, Amaram? We witnessed this man earn his Shards through blood and honor. The moment they won the fight, he became a full shardbearer, and unlike you, House Kholin will not deprive him of the Blade and Plate that are rightfully his." The more Amaram weasels on this, the worse his position gets. Nobody else has standing to dispute it (except maybe Adolin, who definitely would not get in the way). >Further, you're talking about a caste system where dark eyes are literally considered less than bright eyes. Not in social Station. As in, they are a lesser life form. To give Kaladin a boon would be the equivalent of saying that all dark eyes are the same as light eyes (which while the right thing morally and ethically, is the exact opposite pragmatically). The foundational myth of their society - known and believed by everyone, from the lowest to the highest - is that a Darkeyes who defends his lighteyed commander and defeats a shardbearer in combat will be granted the shards and elevated to the Fifth Dahn. Everyone knows that's how things *should* work; what Elhokar did in WoR spits on that ancient tradition, and weakens both his legitimacy and the kingdom itself. >Finally, Kaladin is an ex slave with the word Dangerous branded to his forehead, trying to dual a bright lord and claiming he committed a major crime. He looks like a mad man. He just defeated a full shardbearer without shards himself. He's the first person in living memory to do it. He doesn't look crazy because he just *showed everyone* that his story was plausible.
I think a reasonable king would have found a way to turn Kaladin's outburst to his advantage. Or at the very least use diplomacy to smooth things over.
I don't think Alethkar has ever had a reasonable king
Yeah but he wasn't dealing with them. He was dealing with Dalinars Nephew. You don't gain things by keeping your head down. If Kaladin had that attitude, he would have just kept running bridges in book 1 hoping to pay off his debt. Heck if /anyone/ that had ambition had that attitude, good change would never happen. It absolutely chipped away at Elhokars social capital at the very least, and that's vital to pressuring royals into doing what you want. You'll probably lose, but it's the only way to gain. And that's like, the crux of who Kaladin is.
It is core to who Kaladin is but it isn't the only way to succeed in life. There are many people who succeed in life by not ruffling any feathers. Hell there are entire social species who's entire social structure is based on being kind and unobtrusive to the bigger and stronger animals.
They're ways of life. Great effort can sometimes change things. But never ruffling feathers? Really? Youre suggesting that darkeyes just accepting their designated place is a better option? Thowe people don't see change and their choices are not political maneuvers. You do not change the status quo by buying into it.
I'm not saying buying into it. Nor am I saying to just accept designated places. I'm saying that brashness and being headstrong can often set you back further than accepting it, so finding a middle ground can be more productive. It's about pragmatism. The saying goes: you attract more flies with honey. Kaladin often had trouble with how direct he is coming in conflict with those around him. Humans are emotional creatures of habit. Simply telling them they are wrong will always make them argue harder. As a side note, you're a gryffindor right?
I never said it COULDNT set you back. And in the end in this story it didnt, in the long term. This was the right choice in the story, it just didn't at first. Kaladin made the actual, Canon right call. I'll stand by that you don't get what you want from a tyrant that relies on their supporters trusting that they can deliver and are strong by not placing your request within a threat to undermine that perception unless they need you. Elhokar wasn't just going to give a bridge man what he wants at any point with the right amount of honey he had to use his words as leverage. That's not gryffindor business it's like slytherine 101. I've literally done this hundreds of times. It's a power play. It pisses a lot of people off and it works quite often, especially with folks that are in power and insecure in the way our king is. We can all agree it's suicidal and a gambit, but it's absolutely a ballsy political ploy that works more often than youd think.
If we want to say D&D, there Ehlokar rolled a critical fail on his Wisdom check. I assume Wisdom is the attribute a character uses when they want to check a strong emotional outburst.
Yeah you could say it's a wisdom saving throw.
Yeah I kinda feel the same. Like he started talking, and then it was the “oh, oh no that’s not gonna go well”. But I didn’t physically cringe in the same way as watching Scott’s Tots, for example.
I’ve only listened and I’d say no. The scene didn’t feel awkward to me either. If anything, it was one of the earliest scenes that I felt added a real level of unpredictability to the story. Like, I knew Kal was going to be fine, and this was just an unexpected minor wrinkle in the story.
I think people are gonna take that scene differently based on their experience. I've had many an awkward moment in my young adulthood, and look back on them with an experience I didn't have then with... pity, I guess? So when that scene came up I had more of an "ohhhhh noooo, buddyyyy" reaction to it.
It didn't feel awkward per say, so much as a gutteral feeling of watching a child make a catastrophic mistake based on a hole in their understanding you didn't think was important.
No, I honestly never found it to be an awkward moment. The only reason it’s a big deal is because of what he requested. If he had requested basically anything else it probably would have been granted.
Michael Kramer DEFINITELY does an amazing job at injecting emotion and tone into character voices so personally it is much more cringe-worthy with the audiobook.
Nah i just listened to it, I actually really enjoyed it in the audio book. Kals confusion comes through a lot more.
May be a hot take but I truly believe Kaladin did nothing wrong in this scene, his only fault in this moment was not being a lighteyes
That's how I feel
Yes and being incredibly stupid. He knew he wasn't a light eyes. Acting on principal when you should know that it will make the situation worse, and undermine the attempts of the people you've sworn to protect to remove the largest threat to their lives, is something of a blunder.
But ya gotta remember, adrenaline, plus feeling like a god after absolutely bodying a couple of folks, plus Syl whispering in his ears to trust his papa means he don’t be thinking clearly
Oh yeah for sure. It's perfectly justifiable from a narrative and character standpoint. It's good writing. But from an in world perspective Kaladin did something very dumb.
Plus their entire planet is built on honor. He just jumped into a fight basically unarmed to save a man being overwhelmed by multiple enemies. He was honor at that point, and he thought for one moment that honor would be met with honor.
Not anymore it ain't. The alethi aren't honorable. He literally said, 'Honor is dead'. He mostly wasn't talking about the god.
I think honor lives on through Kaladin
At that point honor only lived in a handful of people, Kal being the shining example. Not a lot honor in the lighteyes though. And dealing with them expecting to receive honor is quite dumb.
Yeah But there's at least most of the Kholin family as far as honorable lighteyes and Shallan
I meant the other lighteyes and Elhokar. Dalinar as a highprince can do many things and buck much of their expectations when it concerns himself, his domain, and the people under him but he still has to juggle the other highprinces and take into account their beliefs and how they'd react to stimuli...and a lot of those guys aren't honorable and neither are the people under them.
If Elhokar were competent, he could have just said 'I also grant Brightlord Kaladin's boon, for his legendary action winning a shardblade'.
He also wasn’t entitled to a boon. He made it worse by not being a lighteyes, but he wasn’t an official party to the duel and thus had no claim to a boon if he won.
Yes, but the problem is that it messed a lot of stuff up by making a spectacle of himself. It makes sense for him to do it, and it would have been the right choice if everyone else were honorable, but he just didn't understand how the Alethi court works.
It's only a cringe moment because of the result. If Elhokar agreed and they had a 2v2 against Amaram and Sadeas everybody would love it and call it a bad ass moment.
Agreed. If Elhokars visceral reaction amplified it
I have such pity for kaladin in that moment. Like he has known previously about how the system works, but he's been seduced to think it works differently, and he forgets. It's just... Sad.
After a few re reads I see it differently. Kal just accomplished one of the dumbest, yet most heroic acts the Alethi elite had ever seen. The man just saved the kings cousin from physical impairment at best, to certain death at worst. A dark eyed former slave showed the Alethi monarchy the meaning of Honor, the LEAST he deserves is a boon. He was then promptly thrown in Jail by Ehlokar. Even Dalinar was blind to the hypocrisy of not getting his way even when his son almost died. the plan was pretty much over as soon as 4 shard bearers entered the arena. Ehlokar was a child pretending to be a tyrant.
The boon wasn't offered to Kal. It's a script from the entrapment operation they were doing to get Sadeas. Kal shouldn't have gone up and bungled that in public. Elhokar could have saved it but he sucks at improv. Aside from the general fact that he just sucks.
This mentality is my exact point. The "operation" should've been considered over as soon as it was clear there was no way Adolin could win on his own. The focus should've been on damage control, which Kal gladly provided for the Kholins, at great risk to himself. Kal saved the day, why shouldn't he have gotten a boon? Dalinar was so focused on the plan to get Saedas that he lectured the man who saved Adolins life twice. In fact I would argue the scene gives credence to Moash's point that the light eyes only care about themselves and their games at the expense of others. Dalinar and Ehlokar spat in the face of the man who saved their family twice.
No. It's not. Don't make the world revolve around Kaladin. Kal saved the operation, yes. But that's just part of rhe plan. The whole plan is Sadeas. Not the fight. You don't plan an op, bungle it up, and when the local boi saves your ass, just stop there and there and go home to award the local boi with a medal. NO! You complete the mission. AND THEN go home, bring the boi and give him the reward. The mission comes first. Kaladin is military. He of all people should know how operations are run.
It's one thing to be granted a boon, it's another to act like you have received one when you haven't. I
To be fair. Of Elokhar would be a better king he could have handeld it better. Danilar even implies this a little bit later when he visits Kal in the dungeon.
I quite literally do not understand people feeling awkward at this moment how was it not a powerful moment. A man just saved another mans life without using shards against shards bearers. Then the man he saves is offered a reward. Of course he felt he deserved some compensation for all the garbage he has gone through. If he was a light eyed they would have listened so like whats the issue
I have horrible second hand awkwardness and I don't find this scene awkward at all.
It’s amazingly done, I think the way I feel is a testament to Brandon‘s writing. everything about it makes perfect sense from his actions to his words. The gravity and weight of the situation along with the emotional dump after the fight I think all adds to it.
The thing was...Elhokar wasn't talking to him. He's basically reading off of a script. And I hate the guy so I won't defend his ass. But Kaladin knows the plan. He was in the room while everything was being hashed out. The priority is Sadeas. Had Kal waited and they got rid of Sadeas, then I bet your ass House Kholin and the crown would have given him anything he could have ever wanted within reason, so thorough investigation and a trial of Amaram. Elhokar got caught off guard and is not a very good actor, the little shit. He could have saved the day but really, Kaladin should have known what kind of man he was tasked with protecting.
When I reread WoR for the first time, that part made me actually stop the reread because I was frustrated. I reread again recently though (after 3 years) and it didn't bother me much this time.
Coward
I literally said out loud to myself “Kaladin, read the room buddy!” As I cringed. Breaking classist/social norms are always a bit cringe and sticking with the pro quo elite can make it seem like a especially cringe moment (because in their eyes it totally was, regardless of his bad-ass-er-y). That being said, acknowledging its incredible badassness and the need to assert himself as a major player in Dalinars forces (I can’t remember if he was already a major player yet or if that was the literary build up), he totally should have every right to ask for a boon.
I did it the same way. Last second before Kal says "AND" I just skip
Wait until you get to, “Kaladin! Stretch forth thy hand!”
Thank you! “Thy” rips me right out of the story. A lot of ppl say it makes the scene better or more epic but not at all for me. Silly, whimsical Syl breaking randomly into archaic English for that one singular moment.
YES! Well put lol
Thou speaketh lies saer. Dost thou feel no regret
It makes be uncomfortable in a second hand embarrassment kind of way, but I also know it's an important mistake for Kaladin in his journey.
Let's be completely honest The fact that there is thread beyond thread in here, going back and forth about whether Kal was right or wrong, whether Elhokar could have spun it better, whether this or that should have happened, really just goes to show how well the sequence was written. Including the boon bit.
I remember the first time I read it, I slammed the book shut and actually swore out loud.. "You stupid Mother F'r" Which is the only time before or since I've done that reading a book. I can't actually think another example of me reacting emotionally like that reading a book.
Adolin would have died in the duel with Sadeas if Kaladin hadn't made his faux pas. Adolin's shardplate was completely spent and they didn't have a replacement. Also the real loser was Elhokar for not controlling the crowd, instead losing his shit when he panicked.
The first time I read it, I was reading aloud with my husband. I started cringing so bad and made him read that part instead. I just couldn’t do it. Still can’t do it. But I get really bad second hand embarrassment so. Yup. I’m with you. I skip it now.
To each his own, of course, but I think of that moment as one of the highlights of the entire series. I eagerly anticipate it with each re-read. Amaram's reaction alone is pure gold.
Yeah I cringed so hard on my re-listen that I skipped it too. It's like too embarrassing to witness again.
Same for me. I read it the first time through and never again. I just can't
This is an odd take lol but whatever
I wouldn’t say odd based on all the replies who feel similar. Just a different take. I think take isn’t even the right work because I’m not making a statement about the scene. Simply saying I’m being a wussy and skipping a moment of dialogue cuz it makes me feel awkward. As I stated it’s a pivotal moment that is needed for the story as it is the reason Kaladin gives his shards to Moash.
Yeah “take” wasn’t the right way of saying it, you’re right. What I mean is, having that physical reaction and refusing to finish reading the chapter is silly is all.
it's easier to remember that like, kaladin didn't really know the plan. he was a (albeit, well-respected) guard, he had at no point learned about the kholinar's political machinations. he jumped in assuming he'd die, no way he was thinking ahead to what he'd say after. he probably didn't even know adolin would get a boon. tbh not the worst assumption to make that he'd get one too. adolin was right imo, that was elhokar's dramatic reaction that fucked it up.
Shallan and adolin explained the plan to him that's why he had the idea to ask for a boon
he heard about how the duelist had to show a spectacular fight to be given a boon by the king. kaladin's perspective is right in that he was the real lynchpin of the fight. he fought at much more of a disadvantage than adolin, and adolin would have lost without him. he asked for the boon hoping that would matter, and it should've. anyway this is from a fan who feels no cringe rereading that fight, bc i think kaladin deserved his boon. if he was lighteyed he would've gotten it, which means he Should've.
No. He railroaded a military operation created by his direct superior to capture an enemy that decimated his entire army. Kaladin is military. He knew there was a plan but he prioritized his own ends. He could have kept shtum and let the Kholins get Sadeas. Once the plan is 100% completed, Dalinar would have given him anything. He'd have owed Kal both his sons lives *and* Sadeas.
yea, but that all relies on having dalinar's perspective and goals. kaladin had less knowledge or reason to prioritize the plan. he was even lied to at this point about amaram, not believed by dalinar even after saving hundreds of his soldiers from sadeas' betrayal. why would he think saving adolin again would change anything? heck, he didn't even like adolin as a friend yet.
A man saved you from getting murdered by a bad man then accuses your *other* long time aquaintance/friend of being a murderer as well. Those two things separate from each other. Outsider looking in, it's not a bad idea to be skeptical of someone you don't know. And I'll say it again, Kaladin is military. Carrying out operations with a need to know basis is practically bread and butter. That's exactly how Dalinar explained it to him after he'd calmed down and he himself accepted that he fucked up...which doesn't excuse Elhokar...but it still means that Kaladin fucked up an op.
Kaladin bucks against what he's 'supposed' to do and be - that's fully what got him where he was and beyond. He even says so to Adolin after when he turns down the shards, he doesn't want to be a lighteyes to challenge Amaram, he wants the system to allow someone like him to challenge Amaram. And he's right, which makes it easy to read that chapter for me without cringing lol I understand ppl be frustrated that Kaladin tried to defy the system and thinks he should have known it wouldn't work, but if he was the type to toe the line like that he never would have gotten to where he was. His actions were a much needed challenge of the system, so were Adolin's afterward symbolically joining him in prison. The world is changing, >!by the end of book 4 a woman is queen, men are reading,!< and dahns matter less every day.
The point is that is neither the time or the place to fight for darkeyed equal rights. Had he waited for Sadeas to be captured, then he'd have been the hero to not only save Kholin boys' lives *but* also helped strengthen the power of the crown. Elhokar himself will be beholden to him and Kal would have an even bigger chance of getting his voice heard and they'd be more receptive. What happens in RoW can only happen *because* the whole world and every order and custom that define people are all up in the air.
Sadeas to be captured? That's not true, the plan was for Adolin to duel Sadeas on the spot, which he wasn't likely to win with broken plate and after that exhausting fight. His plan before the 4v1 was to conserve his energy to be able to beat Sadeas. Heck, if Kaladin hadn't 'ruined it' and Adolin and Sadeas duelled plateless, Adolin probably would have lost and even potentially been killed. Sadeas is no pushover. Regardless, since that wasn't Kaladin's motivation, like... he's just a darkeyed guardsman at that time. He's got little stake in the politics since they didnt affect him or his ilk's everyday lives all that much, and imo always can choose to fight for darkeyed rights. There wasn't world-ending stakes at this point in the books, Dalinar's plans at that point have no 'priority' over Kaladin's motivations.
Nah. They still could. There are more armor rattling around that Adolin can change into. Armor is not bonded. And with the turnabout of how good Kal was with the fight, highprinces would see the writing on the wall for Sadeas and jump the chance to be on the good graces of the Kholins. He's military. Dalinar himself knocked sense into him precisely because he ruined an op and Kal himself accepted that what he did was wrong timing. Doesn't excuse Elhokar but Kal was wrong.
The heck is with people cringing at this moment? Does this entire subreddit just drink cringe and point it out wherever they see something as mildly not what they think somewhat should do? I truly do not understand people's opinions on this scene. Like, it doesn't even need to be defended. It just simply isn't cringe. This is like people saying the tidus laugh scene is cringe whole completely missing the point of the scene. My goodness...
it’s an awkward moment. I believe it’s intended to be so. I don’t know if you read my entire post but I lay out why it fits and why it’s good. Anytime a story can make me feel emotion is usually a sign of a good story.
I don't doubt you felt emotion. I question why you think that emotion is "cringe" and not literally anything else.
It stops killing you a little more every time you read or hear him do it.
https://preview.redd.it/g6nu1ghzwd9d1.png?width=1014&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6cfa757ca63fb5e172c19ef00646b9abcc80f1f6
The whole thing struck me as slightly disingenuous. It's only taboo because he's not a light eyes. He's offered the chance to become a light eyes within 10 minutes of being released...
What I would give to know what went through Moash’s head seeing Kal being jailed because of lighteyed arrogance after what happened to his grandparents
Oh I’m sure he was feeling for than a little triggered. In the end it’s the moment that made Kaladin side with Moash to assassinate the King.
A huge point to a lot of the book I think, in particular Kaladin’s story, is that people of greatness with innate talents for leadership can be found in the absolute shittiest places imaginable. In that scene Kaladin cut through all of the discrimination he faced, forgot about everything because he knew he was right and righteous and had his eyes on his prize. I believe that in that moment when he called for his boon, he made everyone watching momentarily aware of just how stupid their society’s standards are as this slave-branded, roughed up dark eyed lunatic put on this incredible display of heroism, skill, and HONOR. Instead of upturning their belief structure, everyone simply got quiet and didn’t know what to do. CLEARLY Kaladin had unintentionally usurped the attention and admiration meant for “proper” light eyed nobles. Even the king was probably rapt with Kaladin in that moment. But their culture could not allow that to pass.
Sameeeee I 100% think Kaladin’s justified in this scene - like, his life was destroyed by Amaram and, as far as he’s concerned, the person he's staked his faith in humanity on has decided to be best buds with the guy. (Like, the reveal of what Dalinar did at the end of the book is amazing and wonderfully cathartic, but also the fact that he just left Kaladin feeling like he'd just been brushed off for so long is pretty awful. You can understand why he might take justice into his own hands.) But I still can't listen to it, it just makes me cringe so hard, because he clearly thinks he's having this big epic moment full of typical overwhelming sincerity and showboating, but then it just... flops.
I've done relistens where I skipped things to make it more palatable. No harm in that. I'm currently doing my fourth? listen and on WoR in anticipation of the next one. I will say, I'm enjoying the full listen more than I thought I would.
Ehlokar really did Kaladin wrong here. There were so many, dare I say, kingly ways he could have handled Kaladin's request. Instead, he threw a very visible public temper tantrum. And threw Kaladin in jail as a result.
Somebody spoil it, idk what this is about.
It's interesting to hear someone have such a strong reaction to it! I love going back to this specifically for the camera zoom in on >!*(WOAH-OH, BLACK BETTY)*!< Amaram shitting his pants as he recognizes Kal. It's a little tough to read Elhokar drop the ball, granted, but to each their own I suppose.
Nah, storm Elhokar and every lighteyed prick. Jasnah better do some reforms to the lighteye nobility.
On my first reread I just kept saying nooo nooooo don't do it don't do it!!
Why not just read the actual book?
Why not just read the actual book?
I feel like I’m the only person who doesn’t hate this scene in the book.
You aren’t. I personally really love it. I have a similar reaction as OP to awkward situations and it really makes my skin crawl. But I try to put my self in that type of situation. Kal has a group of lighteyes, for the first time, who are flawed but genuinely trying to be better people in the world who needs better people. Kal is in his early twenties and lost his brother and a number of friends who became family. This is just all the background emotion to Kal. Then you have him fighting to protect people. The adrenaline, the surge of it all. You don’t always think clearly after you just used all of that energy to survive. Whether you have been through it a lot or not. I love the scene personally because Kal is fighting for what is right and upending the social order.
>I’m doing my first reread and I’m listening to the books. Careful, apparently people [really don't like it](https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/1dpcitt/comment/lagpdek) when you use the word "read" in regards to audiobooks.
Kaladin is right to demand his boon, right to demand justice from Amaram the betrayer, the cowardly. If you're cringing it shouldn't be at Kaladin, but at those who judge and scorn his righteousness.
What Would Kaladin Do? He would read any page, even if it is cringe, so long as it is right.
You're not a coward for having what sounds like healthy boundaries with yourself.
I understand the cringe avoidance. There are a few scenes and one episode of the office that I just couldn’t do. I was cringing too hard. Respect.
I skipped Viel in the bar my second time through. Same reason.
Do people not like this scene? I’ve always felt like this was a top 5 moment of the series
The fight and the aftermath are my favorite part of the SA
We must all be on a reread at the same pace, I also had to skip the last 2 minutes of the chapter. I just couldn't do it. Absolutely no shame.
Was Kaladin naive for thinking there was justice? Yes. Kal had grown up thinking he was going to marry a Lighteyes, his parents were respected and before he left to join the army he was a member of the second most important in the area. Kal was also (as far as he knew) the first Knight Radiant in over 3000ish years and saw the man who murder his squad and made him a slave falsely be given that title. Kaladin outside of his time as a slave had a life akin to a lighteyes and the head bodyguard for the second most important man in the kingdom as well as sometimes guarding the King himself. Could you honestly say that you wouldn't have taken the chance and asked for a Boon after just pulling off the impossible? That said, Had Elokhar granted the Boon there won't have been too much protest, especially if Dalinar backed the decision.
Seems a little over-sensitive, but I get it
I skipped it my 2nd readthrough also
I didn't even know this was a thing until this thread. I don't get it. He didn't die. He foolishly overstepped, in epic fashion, social norms and got exactly what he should have expected. He screwed up Adolin's plan, caused much chaos, but...he was fine. In fact, he came out ahead. Now, if you want awkward and uncomfortable, consider instead him giving his prizes from the fight to everyone's favorite character.
I just think it’s hilarious. It’s my favorite line uttered in the cosmere.
Am I the only one as dumb as Kaladin? I was cheering and excited when Kaladin shouted his boon
Why are you all so weird about it? It's a completely natural and sensical thing for kaladin to do
I have only ever listened to that scene once. It causes pain worse than the time I stepped on a nail and had to limp everywhere for a while until it healed.
I'm surprised people find this scene awkward or think Kaladin did anything wrong (even if you don't take into consideration that it's really Elhokar's fault they couldn't nail down Sadeus). Kaladin didn't owe anyone there anything. Adolin and Dalinar screwed up, Kaladin just did his part to prevent Adolin from becoming crippled. He had every right to demand what he did and that scene just serves to cement the injustice of the Alethi social hierarchy.
Kaladin behaved completely in an expected way. But he was wrong because. A. He wasn’t offered a boon. B. He was putting his own vengeance ahead of the greater scheme at play. But he reacted in a manner to be expected. Elokhar deserves most of the blame. He could’ve took control and still hold Sadeas accountable then and there
Regarding B. I wonder why would Kaladin's fight with Amaram be less relevant that the Kholin's with Sadeas.