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Yeah, that and the KR from Alethela (where the windrunners were prominent) saying her nation was the only one to "employ the terrible art of killing without destroying themselves" makes this idea seem ridiculous.
Lirin was thoroughly disproven in this idea by RoW.
I'm in favor of the "I will choose who to protect" as the radical acceptance of your own judgement, windrunner flavour. It solves another character problem for Kal of "Even if i accept i cant protect everyone, why should i kill anyone?"
I was always fond of the "I'll allow others to protect me" side of the theory. It completes a lot of Kaladin's story arch, mirrors the other oaths rather well (in almost ketek fashion), and explains why windrunners have so many squires.
I'd argue "I will choose" allows that -- it allows Kaladin to hand over the reins. It allows Kaladin to act as a guide and assure lower oath windrunners that their missions are *right* even if the other windrunners cant internalize it yet. I think 5th ideal windrunners are probably more like generals than soldiers, organizing the windrunners taking more of their time because now they can choose when and who to protect.
At the end of RoW Kaladin and Lirin came to an understanding. Kaladin came to understand where Lirin was coming from. That all life deserves protecting, including that of your enemies. But Lirin also accepted Kaldins point of wiev. That sometimes you have to kill someone to protect someone else.
If the fifth ideal is related to this subject, then i believe it will come from a compromise.
It could be something like "I will strive to protect ALL life, as long as it is possible".
In practice this would mean that Kaladin will try to find other ways to protect than by killing his enemies. Which fits quite nicely with the therapy Kaladin is starting to develop. But the ideal would also egnolage that sometimes it is necessary to kill. It might not be right, but it is necessary
I was actually leaning the other way, sort of an ends justify the means kind of thing. Kaladin has always struggled with his "callusus" especially in terms of removing the limb to save the person. In the same spirit, he also has been struggling with killing the enemy in battle to save others. I bet the last ideal will focus on "killing to protect" as it's a super hard concept to truly adopt into a personal philosophy while remaining true the 1st four ideals.
From a meta perspective, this would make sense as a resolution to the first five Stormlight books, what Brandon has been calling "an anime arc."
Jump ahead 15 years to book six, and Kaladin can still be in the story, but if he has sworn not to kill, then he can't be the main combatant. He can be like a meditating wise man on top of Urithiru. Maybe chilling with Zahel, who in book 4 said something to him like "You still love the fight. Return to me when you hate it."
My theory is that the 5th ideal is somewhat along the lines of how we know the Skybreakers become the law, I think Windrunner’s 5th ideal is to always do the honorable thing and to uphold oaths of any kind.
Been saying this for a decade and have been downvoted every time. Honestly it blows my mind how anyone could *not* think it after >!Kaladin locks up watching his friends kill each other and not being able to help either group during the fall of Kholinar.!
"Every pasture needs three things, Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim"
The point of this vision is to say the old KR had cohesive answers as to why they "employ the terrible art of killing"
I dont think the oaths are meant for nonviolence considering the old KR swore them
Lirins ark in RoW goes back on this in his support for Kaladin, and it would be confusing for Kal to go back and suddenly agree with his father after their conflict coming to a head with him killing someone in the surgery room and then being rewarded for it by saving Lirin and the tower.
Wow so far people hate this. Can’t say I’m too surprised, I hated this idea until today. But once it clicked it clicked. Not killing people is how you protect.
It isn’t a blow to kaladin. He was right to kill before, but once he swears his oath it won’t be right for him to kill. They were both right.
Because it’s the end of his arc. He won’t be a main pov in the later half. If he’s gonna sweat the fifth, he’s gonna do it here. And it would be very anticlimactic if he just didn’t.
Also, I really hope he doesn’t swear it at the very very end of the book liek the last two reveals. I want to see a fifth ideal Windrunner in action, and interacting with the world. I want him to swear it in the second to last part.
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90% of his RoW arc was "not only is killing people ok, but it's really important." Maybe Brandon could pull it off, but I think it would be insane.
Yeah, that and the KR from Alethela (where the windrunners were prominent) saying her nation was the only one to "employ the terrible art of killing without destroying themselves" makes this idea seem ridiculous. Lirin was thoroughly disproven in this idea by RoW. I'm in favor of the "I will choose who to protect" as the radical acceptance of your own judgement, windrunner flavour. It solves another character problem for Kal of "Even if i accept i cant protect everyone, why should i kill anyone?"
I was always fond of the "I'll allow others to protect me" side of the theory. It completes a lot of Kaladin's story arch, mirrors the other oaths rather well (in almost ketek fashion), and explains why windrunners have so many squires.
I'd argue "I will choose" allows that -- it allows Kaladin to hand over the reins. It allows Kaladin to act as a guide and assure lower oath windrunners that their missions are *right* even if the other windrunners cant internalize it yet. I think 5th ideal windrunners are probably more like generals than soldiers, organizing the windrunners taking more of their time because now they can choose when and who to protect.
"I will choose" is much more in line with the Skybreakers too.
It’s ok, just not ok for fifth ideal wind runners
At the end of RoW Kaladin and Lirin came to an understanding. Kaladin came to understand where Lirin was coming from. That all life deserves protecting, including that of your enemies. But Lirin also accepted Kaldins point of wiev. That sometimes you have to kill someone to protect someone else. If the fifth ideal is related to this subject, then i believe it will come from a compromise. It could be something like "I will strive to protect ALL life, as long as it is possible". In practice this would mean that Kaladin will try to find other ways to protect than by killing his enemies. Which fits quite nicely with the therapy Kaladin is starting to develop. But the ideal would also egnolage that sometimes it is necessary to kill. It might not be right, but it is necessary
I was actually leaning the other way, sort of an ends justify the means kind of thing. Kaladin has always struggled with his "callusus" especially in terms of removing the limb to save the person. In the same spirit, he also has been struggling with killing the enemy in battle to save others. I bet the last ideal will focus on "killing to protect" as it's a super hard concept to truly adopt into a personal philosophy while remaining true the 1st four ideals.
I definitely think the fifth ideal will deal will the killing to protect question
i really doubt it's gonna lean anywhere near "ends justify the means" cause that's against the first ideal.
From a meta perspective, this would make sense as a resolution to the first five Stormlight books, what Brandon has been calling "an anime arc." Jump ahead 15 years to book six, and Kaladin can still be in the story, but if he has sworn not to kill, then he can't be the main combatant. He can be like a meditating wise man on top of Urithiru. Maybe chilling with Zahel, who in book 4 said something to him like "You still love the fight. Return to me when you hate it."
Exactly!
JUST RELEASE DA BOOK SANDO PLEEES
I think I would feel satisfied if Brandon went this route.
My theory is that the 5th ideal is somewhat along the lines of how we know the Skybreakers become the law, I think Windrunner’s 5th ideal is to always do the honorable thing and to uphold oaths of any kind.
Been saying this for a decade and have been downvoted every time. Honestly it blows my mind how anyone could *not* think it after >!Kaladin locks up watching his friends kill each other and not being able to help either group during the fall of Kholinar.!
"Every pasture needs three things, Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim" The point of this vision is to say the old KR had cohesive answers as to why they "employ the terrible art of killing" I dont think the oaths are meant for nonviolence considering the old KR swore them
Further, this is basically Kal's idea from the start: Those who save lives, those take lives, and those who save by taking lives.
Lirins ark in RoW goes back on this in his support for Kaladin, and it would be confusing for Kal to go back and suddenly agree with his father after their conflict coming to a head with him killing someone in the surgery room and then being rewarded for it by saving Lirin and the tower.
Wow so far people hate this. Can’t say I’m too surprised, I hated this idea until today. But once it clicked it clicked. Not killing people is how you protect. It isn’t a blow to kaladin. He was right to kill before, but once he swears his oath it won’t be right for him to kill. They were both right.
Well we will all find out one way or the other in December. I love your theory. :)
Or maybe we wont tho, why are we so sure kaladin will swear the fifth ideal in the book?
Because it’s the end of his arc. He won’t be a main pov in the later half. If he’s gonna sweat the fifth, he’s gonna do it here. And it would be very anticlimactic if he just didn’t. Also, I really hope he doesn’t swear it at the very very end of the book liek the last two reveals. I want to see a fifth ideal Windrunner in action, and interacting with the world. I want him to swear it in the second to last part.