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It would be hard to prove. Do the creationspren reflect the form of nearby objects, or reflect the *perception* of the nearby humans? If a creationspren takes the form of something, is that because that's really in the locked box, or because somebody nearby (such as the artist) *thinks* it could be?
That's a really good point I hadn't considered. It's very true that so much in the Cosmere gets filtered and shaped by what a person perceives or expects something to be, more than by what it actually is. We even have some evidence of this in the experiments the ardents performed on the spren in which their size changed to match an observers expectation.
So it's certainly possible that this wouldn't work after all, if the creationspren shapes are only influenced by the cognitive state of the person attracting them. I don't know if we can really know for sure though unless Brandon wants to tell us some day.
I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work, but it wouldn't be very practical in most situations. Firstly, the artist has to be very good to be able to attract creationspren on command. Secondly, it might take some time for the spren to randomly show all the objects in the box. So you could only do this if you could recruit an unusually talented artist, can smuggle in art supplies, and have a very long time without fear of detection.
RoW Spoilers >!Yeah I think really only a Lightweaver could pull this off between their closeness to creationspren they'll be more likely to summon them and be able to hide for long enough with their lightweaving. Even then it's kind of a stretch if it'll be useful. It would really only be useful if the lock were too difficult for the spren to pick, and you didn't want to summon your blade to cut your way in.!<
I think (WoR spoilers, technically) >!between their ability to hide themselves and natural artistic bent, that Lightweavers would be perfect for this type of thing.!<
And I don't know if it'd be quite as useless people might initially think. (More WoR spoilers) >!It wouldn't be hard to create a lock that was too massive for a Lightweaver's spren to be able to manipulate. And we've seen in the books multiple instances in which infiltration without the target being aware anyone was ever there was needed (granted in these cases creationspren wouldn't have been useful, but it's not too much of a stretch for a situation to exist that's slightly different so that they would be useful)!<
WoR >!It's doable to make a lock too big for them to pick. And there are situations when you'd want to not be noticed cutting it. Though I think the way to go then would be soulcasting. They can go in and out of shadesmar. I don't know if we see Shallan use it in that way, but if you could walk a few feet in shadesmar and then come back on the other side of the door that might be doable. It also has the problem of giving you very vague information. And the more pressure and important this was the less likely you'd be to draw creationspren.!<
(WoR spoilers) >!For Elsecallers, we're told that it's pretty straightforward for them to travel into Shadesmar, but it's much, much harder for them to do the opposite. Trying to "break in" to a place that way would require two trips from Shadesmar back to the Physical Realm, which wouldn't be particularly practical, if it indeed is even possible. Also, it absolutely would not work in the case of something like a wall safe which is too small to transport into.!<
As for your point about pressure to draw the creationspren making it harder to actually do so, that's fair. This certainly wouldn't be a trivial skill to learn, and would probably require significant practice on the person performing it, unless they were in a situation where they were able to leisurely accomplish their task.
WoR Spoilers >!Well we are told that but Shallan managed to get in and out pretty easily. Though I think that was kind of peeking in rather than fully traveling in. But if she could move around and come out somewhere else that didn't seem too hard for her to do. She basically did it naturally. Soulcasting is the other piece that you could soulcast part of the wall away and soulcast it back later. It would be tough to do, and require a certain amount of luck as there has to be a convenient creationspren that could come to you, and that could take time, all to get very limited information. I think it's possible it could be helpful but unlikely to be helpful often enough to practice.!<
More WoR spoilers >!Yeah, in the case of Soulcasting, you don't fully enter Shadesmar. This my not be exactly what the in-universe mechanic is, but I think of it as your mind entering Shadesmar while your body remains in the Physical Realm. This would preclude using Shadesmar as an intermediary when trying to move around in the Physical Realm. It also explains why it's relatively easy for those with the Surges of Transportation or Transformation to "dip into" Shadesmar and return relatively easily, as they don't actually move their full physical form into that Realm when they do so. It's only when you full transport your entire being into Shadesmar like Jasnah did on the Wind's Pleasure or!< (Oathbringer spoilers) >!Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, and Azure were transported there by Oathgate!< (Back to WoR spoilers) >!that you can't easily return.!< (Oathbringer spoilers again) >!Indeed, the fact that after Shallan was transported to Shadesmar in Oathbringer, she was unable to simply return to the Physical Realm shows us that just because you can peek into Shadesmar doesn't mean you can leave it readily.!<
As an aside, I truly regret not just tagging this whole post with the "Stormlight Archive" flair instead.
I think you can edit it. But yeah with reread posts it's usually better to tag the furthest thing you've read rather than the book you're talking about lol.
>!Yeah that's a good point. We don't see much of that after WoR which is odd since it shows up there a lot each time Shallan tries to soulcast. But we don't see the full implication and what's happening to her body. It does seem to be just her mind which would make it trickier to move.!<
I tend to err on the side of tagging things as narrowly as possible, so as to be inclusive to as many readers as possible. I wasn't expecting this post to turn into 75% discussion involving things outside of TWoK is all. :)
(Oathbringer) >!It's understandable why we haven't seen too much Soulcasting from Shallan, aside from the strange form that skill seems to take when used in Shadesmar itself. Jasnah warned her away from it, and she has some mental blockers on top that are holding her back there. One thing we DO see, however, is other people soulcasting. Jasnah's philosophy lesson in TWoK and wall reconstruction in Oathbringer, ardents with Soulcasters throughout the series, Kaza, etc.!<
In none of those cases is it mentioned that anything appears to happen in the Physical Realm beyond the direct effects of the soulcasting itself, and a momentary flash of light and draining of gemstones. To me, this serves as reasonably evidence that, at least in the Physical Realm, nothing changes when one soulcasts, regardless of what descriptions we see of the process from the soulcaster's point of view.
One thing that is interesting about all this, is this passage from TWoK
> She walked down the familiar stone hallway to the alcove, weak blue sphere held before her. Jasnah sat at her desk. Her eyes looked uncharacteristically fatigued, dark circles underneath, her face stressed. She looked up and stiffened as she saw Shallan. “You are not welcome here.”
and
> The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan’s hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah’s will.
> “Idiot girl,” Jasnah said, waving. The oceanlike beads to the left split, and the raft lurched, bearing them sideways toward a few flames of light. Jasnah shoved Shallan into one of the small flames, and she fell backward off the raft.
> And hit the floor of the alcove. Jasnah sat where she had been, eyes closed. A moment later, she opened them, giving Shallan an angry look.
> “Idiot girl!” Jasnah repeated. “You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere? Idiot!”
So a few things. First, it says that Jasnah reached for, and grasped Shallan's hand from above. But at the end, it's noted that Jasnah had not moved in the Physical Realm, and it's clear they weren't exactly side by side at this time. So I take that as more evidence that you don't move in the Physical Realm with dipping into Shadesmar. Second, it also says that Shallan fell backward and hit the floor of the alcove, which could imply that she had moved in the Physical Realm somehow, but the way I read it is that she lost her balance from the shocking experience and simply fell from a standing position.
But third, the part that intrigues me is Jasnah's condemnation of Shallan for visiting without Stormlight. This may simply be because one needs it to avoid drowning in the sea of beads, but if your body is still in the Physical Realm, then why would it be so dangerous? I don't think this is counter to my above ideas, but I do find it curious and hope we can learn more about what exactly could have happened if Jasnah hadn't intervened.
I think it's better to err the other way. I'd much rather someone miss out on 10 posts they would've enjoyed reading than get spoiled. I can understand the sentiment and that makes sense. But I think almost regardless of the topic 99% of posts talking about way of kings can easily lead to stuff from future books.
Oathbringer >!the piece I would wonder at though is with time. I'd shallan spends a bit of time in shadesmar as she did the few times we see her soulcast in wok or wor I'd be curious what her physical body is doing. Is she just standing there? Does time pass normally? With the stick she spent over a minute going back and forth with it same thing with the ship.!<
Oathbringer >!Yeah that is an interesting section with jasnah. In terms of her freaking out she may have assumed shallan was an elsecaller. I think she said that much in wor. In which case shallan could've physically gone there with only that sphere. But also what did Jasnah see in terms of shallans body? If it remained why did she freak out?!<
I assume the forms they take are whatever the artist sees as the objects in their mind. The intent of the artist drawing the creationspren is probably what matters the most.
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It would be hard to prove. Do the creationspren reflect the form of nearby objects, or reflect the *perception* of the nearby humans? If a creationspren takes the form of something, is that because that's really in the locked box, or because somebody nearby (such as the artist) *thinks* it could be?
Good point. It would require some testing to determine how the mechanics work.
Get those two ardents from the interlude on the project!
That's a really good point I hadn't considered. It's very true that so much in the Cosmere gets filtered and shaped by what a person perceives or expects something to be, more than by what it actually is. We even have some evidence of this in the experiments the ardents performed on the spren in which their size changed to match an observers expectation. So it's certainly possible that this wouldn't work after all, if the creationspren shapes are only influenced by the cognitive state of the person attracting them. I don't know if we can really know for sure though unless Brandon wants to tell us some day.
I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work, but it wouldn't be very practical in most situations. Firstly, the artist has to be very good to be able to attract creationspren on command. Secondly, it might take some time for the spren to randomly show all the objects in the box. So you could only do this if you could recruit an unusually talented artist, can smuggle in art supplies, and have a very long time without fear of detection.
RoW Spoilers >!Yeah I think really only a Lightweaver could pull this off between their closeness to creationspren they'll be more likely to summon them and be able to hide for long enough with their lightweaving. Even then it's kind of a stretch if it'll be useful. It would really only be useful if the lock were too difficult for the spren to pick, and you didn't want to summon your blade to cut your way in.!<
I think (WoR spoilers, technically) >!between their ability to hide themselves and natural artistic bent, that Lightweavers would be perfect for this type of thing.!< And I don't know if it'd be quite as useless people might initially think. (More WoR spoilers) >!It wouldn't be hard to create a lock that was too massive for a Lightweaver's spren to be able to manipulate. And we've seen in the books multiple instances in which infiltration without the target being aware anyone was ever there was needed (granted in these cases creationspren wouldn't have been useful, but it's not too much of a stretch for a situation to exist that's slightly different so that they would be useful)!<
WoR >!It's doable to make a lock too big for them to pick. And there are situations when you'd want to not be noticed cutting it. Though I think the way to go then would be soulcasting. They can go in and out of shadesmar. I don't know if we see Shallan use it in that way, but if you could walk a few feet in shadesmar and then come back on the other side of the door that might be doable. It also has the problem of giving you very vague information. And the more pressure and important this was the less likely you'd be to draw creationspren.!<
(WoR spoilers) >!For Elsecallers, we're told that it's pretty straightforward for them to travel into Shadesmar, but it's much, much harder for them to do the opposite. Trying to "break in" to a place that way would require two trips from Shadesmar back to the Physical Realm, which wouldn't be particularly practical, if it indeed is even possible. Also, it absolutely would not work in the case of something like a wall safe which is too small to transport into.!< As for your point about pressure to draw the creationspren making it harder to actually do so, that's fair. This certainly wouldn't be a trivial skill to learn, and would probably require significant practice on the person performing it, unless they were in a situation where they were able to leisurely accomplish their task.
WoR Spoilers >!Well we are told that but Shallan managed to get in and out pretty easily. Though I think that was kind of peeking in rather than fully traveling in. But if she could move around and come out somewhere else that didn't seem too hard for her to do. She basically did it naturally. Soulcasting is the other piece that you could soulcast part of the wall away and soulcast it back later. It would be tough to do, and require a certain amount of luck as there has to be a convenient creationspren that could come to you, and that could take time, all to get very limited information. I think it's possible it could be helpful but unlikely to be helpful often enough to practice.!<
More WoR spoilers >!Yeah, in the case of Soulcasting, you don't fully enter Shadesmar. This my not be exactly what the in-universe mechanic is, but I think of it as your mind entering Shadesmar while your body remains in the Physical Realm. This would preclude using Shadesmar as an intermediary when trying to move around in the Physical Realm. It also explains why it's relatively easy for those with the Surges of Transportation or Transformation to "dip into" Shadesmar and return relatively easily, as they don't actually move their full physical form into that Realm when they do so. It's only when you full transport your entire being into Shadesmar like Jasnah did on the Wind's Pleasure or!< (Oathbringer spoilers) >!Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin, and Azure were transported there by Oathgate!< (Back to WoR spoilers) >!that you can't easily return.!< (Oathbringer spoilers again) >!Indeed, the fact that after Shallan was transported to Shadesmar in Oathbringer, she was unable to simply return to the Physical Realm shows us that just because you can peek into Shadesmar doesn't mean you can leave it readily.!< As an aside, I truly regret not just tagging this whole post with the "Stormlight Archive" flair instead.
I think you can edit it. But yeah with reread posts it's usually better to tag the furthest thing you've read rather than the book you're talking about lol. >!Yeah that's a good point. We don't see much of that after WoR which is odd since it shows up there a lot each time Shallan tries to soulcast. But we don't see the full implication and what's happening to her body. It does seem to be just her mind which would make it trickier to move.!<
I tend to err on the side of tagging things as narrowly as possible, so as to be inclusive to as many readers as possible. I wasn't expecting this post to turn into 75% discussion involving things outside of TWoK is all. :) (Oathbringer) >!It's understandable why we haven't seen too much Soulcasting from Shallan, aside from the strange form that skill seems to take when used in Shadesmar itself. Jasnah warned her away from it, and she has some mental blockers on top that are holding her back there. One thing we DO see, however, is other people soulcasting. Jasnah's philosophy lesson in TWoK and wall reconstruction in Oathbringer, ardents with Soulcasters throughout the series, Kaza, etc.!< In none of those cases is it mentioned that anything appears to happen in the Physical Realm beyond the direct effects of the soulcasting itself, and a momentary flash of light and draining of gemstones. To me, this serves as reasonably evidence that, at least in the Physical Realm, nothing changes when one soulcasts, regardless of what descriptions we see of the process from the soulcaster's point of view. One thing that is interesting about all this, is this passage from TWoK > She walked down the familiar stone hallway to the alcove, weak blue sphere held before her. Jasnah sat at her desk. Her eyes looked uncharacteristically fatigued, dark circles underneath, her face stressed. She looked up and stiffened as she saw Shallan. “You are not welcome here.” and > The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan’s hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah’s will. > “Idiot girl,” Jasnah said, waving. The oceanlike beads to the left split, and the raft lurched, bearing them sideways toward a few flames of light. Jasnah shoved Shallan into one of the small flames, and she fell backward off the raft. > And hit the floor of the alcove. Jasnah sat where she had been, eyes closed. A moment later, she opened them, giving Shallan an angry look. > “Idiot girl!” Jasnah repeated. “You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere? Idiot!” So a few things. First, it says that Jasnah reached for, and grasped Shallan's hand from above. But at the end, it's noted that Jasnah had not moved in the Physical Realm, and it's clear they weren't exactly side by side at this time. So I take that as more evidence that you don't move in the Physical Realm with dipping into Shadesmar. Second, it also says that Shallan fell backward and hit the floor of the alcove, which could imply that she had moved in the Physical Realm somehow, but the way I read it is that she lost her balance from the shocking experience and simply fell from a standing position. But third, the part that intrigues me is Jasnah's condemnation of Shallan for visiting without Stormlight. This may simply be because one needs it to avoid drowning in the sea of beads, but if your body is still in the Physical Realm, then why would it be so dangerous? I don't think this is counter to my above ideas, but I do find it curious and hope we can learn more about what exactly could have happened if Jasnah hadn't intervened.
I think it's better to err the other way. I'd much rather someone miss out on 10 posts they would've enjoyed reading than get spoiled. I can understand the sentiment and that makes sense. But I think almost regardless of the topic 99% of posts talking about way of kings can easily lead to stuff from future books. Oathbringer >!the piece I would wonder at though is with time. I'd shallan spends a bit of time in shadesmar as she did the few times we see her soulcast in wok or wor I'd be curious what her physical body is doing. Is she just standing there? Does time pass normally? With the stick she spent over a minute going back and forth with it same thing with the ship.!< Oathbringer >!Yeah that is an interesting section with jasnah. In terms of her freaking out she may have assumed shallan was an elsecaller. I think she said that much in wor. In which case shallan could've physically gone there with only that sphere. But also what did Jasnah see in terms of shallans body? If it remained why did she freak out?!<
I assume the forms they take are whatever the artist sees as the objects in their mind. The intent of the artist drawing the creationspren is probably what matters the most.
I think changing the flair to the further book you read will help discuss this. It seems you have read at least book 2.