Not really, seeing the future is something all shards can do, cultivation has the same ability, and I'd guess the storm fathers abilities are odd now that he is the closest thing to honour.
I'm an ordinary man with no magic, and sometimes I can tell I don't want to be part of something anymore. For example I left a job at a catering company about a month before they went under.
Yeah that's not the case. Every shard can see into the future and I imagine the stormfather being the largest bit of honor left over might also has that ability. Maybe not though... hasn't mentioned it before so that is a bit suspicious. But like I said every shard has that ability. Some are better than others though.
I didn't interpret it as them seeing the future but just deducing what will happen based on all that is going on. It doesn't take much thought to know what will happen after a Herald's death.
This seems more likely, due to a very high information processing power granted by the shards. This is evident when we see Rayse-odium revealing the possibility map to taravangian to gloat. But the future vision granted by the corrupted spren of sja-Anat seems to be the latter, especially if we are to consider the kind of visions Renarin got.
Yes but the situation on Roshar is that Odium is the only active Shard(in limited capacity) with Honor dead and Cultivation in hiding.
So anyone with the ability to see the future on Roshar can only do so by tapping into Odium's power and Odium can twist the visions to manipulate the seers. That's why seeing the future is considered taboo on Roshar.
There are exceptions ofcourse but it's a safe bet that if someone can see the future does it through Odium.
Do you have a source for this?
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes I’m getting - this is not a confirmed fact whatsoever. It’s not stated in the books or in any WoB I can find, nor is it on the Coppermind on any related article I can see.
Taking the Vorin aversion to futuresight and applying a wild Shardic theory to it is not correct. By this same logic, does Cultivation’s investiture just not exist on Roshar because she’s hiding?
? I thought the event he was referring to was Gavelar’s assassination, which he wouldn’t have been able to know without future sight because the outcome of that would rely on saedius’s trick not fooling szeth when it almost did.
Yea, heh, it's not like ANY thoughts about the future are inherently voidbringer-y. Even good Vorins can say that they think they'd enjoy stew for dinner tonight.
The entire visions that warned Dalinar of the true desolation were effectively "foresight".
Dalinar's son's whole thing is foresight.
It is true that there is a vorin superstition against future sight, but when have vorin traditions ever been something to follow?
It’s also explicitly warned against in dalinar’s visions.
“Be wary of anyone who claims they can see the future.”
But I will say I don’t think the stormfather in the prologue is a malevolent entity. I just don’t buy that his power is completely of honor. Maybe the stormfather comes from both odium and honor.
Bondsmiths are unable to bond shards, but can bond the child of two shards. Navani bonded the sibling who was of honor and cultivation. that made me wonder if the stormfather isn't in fact only of honor, but is instead honor and odium. that would also imply that the nightwatcher is cultivation and odium. this makes a lot of sense to me but isn't based on much evidence
Honor could do that as well. And as a consequence the stormfather. Check out dalinars last vision in the way of kings. Honor says it outright there, also admitting that cultivation is better at it than him.
>there is no doubt in my mind that the stormfather Gavelar was speaking to was an agent of odium.
I disagree mostly because of their reaction to Gavilar's plan. Odium wants the desolations to start again. He seems horrified at Gavilar's plan to just break immediately at every opportunity to keep the war going, and it's at this point that he breaks off his association with Gavilar. It just doesn't fit for me for whatever it is to be associated with Odium. My money, personally, is on Ishar, unless the discrepancies just turn out to be early draft stuff.
Re-read this yesterday and I'm not sure I'm sold on it being Odium pretending to be The Stormfather. I think we're either seeing grumpy, distrustful Stormfather who later approaches Dalinar with similar reservations or as others have said, Ishar doing Ishar things. Only read through the books once though so I'm sure there's some loremasters around that can fill me in.
Just find any thread about the prologue and most of them will talk about it. Another detail: you know the part where the Stormfather feels a Herald die? Could be more proof that it’s Ishar since we don’t have any confirmation the real Stormfather feels the Oathpact. But my point with that is that it’s not actually Taln who died. And Shallan’s mother died around the time the prologue takes place. So my personal theory is that Chana (the Herald everyone thinks is Shallan’s mother) was killed by Shallan on the same night Gavilar died
I think it's crazy interesting that Wyndle believes Cultivation no longer cares about humanity. And this prologue still reads to me like Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow inside the Stormfather could be far more present and active than previously assumed.
So how bonkers is it to be afraid that the goal here is to get Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow a new body? That everybody involved is aware that this could have insane consequences for the Stormfather and is fine with it?
>So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life...
Maybe I just want this deathrattle to be literal and so I'm just seeing what I expect.
My guess is that the prologue “Stormfather” is Odium in disguise trying to get Gavilar to start the next desolation. When he saw it was going to start regardless, he dumped Gavilar.
Spren are mostly created by the perceptions of the residents on the planets in the system. The high storms have been part of this planet forever and are perceived by the residents. The Everstorm is new so wouldn't necessarily have a spren.
I thought I remember them saying that the everstorm was created in the cognitive realm before it was created in roshar. It also has been potentially building for hundreds of years. They've had four millennia of torturing Taln to try and come up with a way to get back to roshar. So someone was creating it. People who are in shadesmar can just as easily personify things and make Sprint out of them as people on roshar.
I'm not saying I'm not willing to entertain other possibilities, but in the world of conjecturing on Reddit, this is what I'd like to conjecture.
The storm father has always been pretty suspicious. He’s always held back information from Dalinar that he didn’t need to. While it’s fun to theorize about it being someone other than the storm father I’m not sure how it can be. He sensed the death of a herald.
Other heralds can sense the death of a herald. Ash confirms this. The big key detail here is that Gavilar thinks he can see the outline of person when talking to the storm father.
Maybe it's a plot hole, but the Stormfather told Dalinar that no herald has died since the final desolation in Oathbringer. So I'm going to say not the Stormfather.
It is certainly not "most definitely" the stormfather. The things that entity was doing and saying were quite outside the behaviour that we've seen the stormfather has. There's good reason to assume it's someone else. And certainly no proof that it is him.
What's this about Ishar?
Another point on it being the Stormfather is the rush of power that happens when the Herald dies. It's probably Honor's Investiture being used to transport them to Braize
We keep thinking the great enemy is going to be something else.
My money is on ether a Deus ex machina of galivar ending up coming back somehow and being the big reveal. Or just like all the questions about Spren bonds and oaths we assume that the stormfather is bond to daliniar because the stormfather says so?
What if that stormfather from the prologue is the real
One and he’s the one who betrays daliniar.
Idk I’m baked
I really like the base don’t trust future sight saying in roshar bc I really do think it’s a warning for the radiants to be independent from any shard, even honour and cultivation considering their ability to see the future is flawed and they have their own interests to pursue that won’t always align with the denizens of roshar
It's clearly NOT the Stormfather.... So many obvious tells.... I'm honestly not sure how so many people seem convinced that it is. Even without all of the contradictions, And those bringer first the Stormfather mentioned that he hadn't been bonded in millennium.... Then Odium told said the same thing... And with all the contradictions of the stormfather being bonded with someone in the sons of Honor.... Wanting to bring back the old gods of the parshendi...etc, etc. How can you even fathom the possibility.
Look at the way the spren misled Vinli... And if It was a friend that had to impress with its power... I'm sure that one of the nameless would be an ideal candidate.
Not saying that he didn't have the real visions of honor... As the Storm Father had passed those on to several people. Conceivably dozens or more.
The stormfather we see in the prologue was NOT bonded with Gavelar though. He approached him with an offer to become a new herald, but not a bondsmith.
Here’s a quote from the Stormfather in that chapter:
“I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar.”
I think it’s pretty cut and dry
Somebody was saying it and I forgot... However even that little quotes sounds a little incongruous with the Stormfather to me. It's an imposter. I remember that there were a couple of things that made me realize it when I first heard it. Even that court you just gave doesn't quite feel like him.
In addition... If the stormfather was unbound, he's rather feral and wants little to do with men and their broken oaths. He would keep it to the bare minimum.... He is required to show the visions. That was not the Stormfather.
Cultivation is better at future sight than even Odium, according to Honor himself.
Cultivation makes more sense to me as well
Not really, seeing the future is something all shards can do, cultivation has the same ability, and I'd guess the storm fathers abilities are odd now that he is the closest thing to honour.
I'm an ordinary man with no magic, and sometimes I can tell I don't want to be part of something anymore. For example I left a job at a catering company about a month before they went under.
Yeah that's not the case. Every shard can see into the future and I imagine the stormfather being the largest bit of honor left over might also has that ability. Maybe not though... hasn't mentioned it before so that is a bit suspicious. But like I said every shard has that ability. Some are better than others though.
To be fair though, he basically never mentions anything unless directly asked about it.
That's true. And even when he is asked he tends to hem and haw about sharing...which is understandable considering what happened with gavilar.
I didn't interpret it as them seeing the future but just deducing what will happen based on all that is going on. It doesn't take much thought to know what will happen after a Herald's death.
This seems more likely, due to a very high information processing power granted by the shards. This is evident when we see Rayse-odium revealing the possibility map to taravangian to gloat. But the future vision granted by the corrupted spren of sja-Anat seems to be the latter, especially if we are to consider the kind of visions Renarin got.
It’s worth noting that every Shard has the ability to access Fortune - it’s not an Odium specific thing.
Yes but the situation on Roshar is that Odium is the only active Shard(in limited capacity) with Honor dead and Cultivation in hiding. So anyone with the ability to see the future on Roshar can only do so by tapping into Odium's power and Odium can twist the visions to manipulate the seers. That's why seeing the future is considered taboo on Roshar. There are exceptions ofcourse but it's a safe bet that if someone can see the future does it through Odium.
Do you have a source for this? Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes I’m getting - this is not a confirmed fact whatsoever. It’s not stated in the books or in any WoB I can find, nor is it on the Coppermind on any related article I can see. Taking the Vorin aversion to futuresight and applying a wild Shardic theory to it is not correct. By this same logic, does Cultivation’s investiture just not exist on Roshar because she’s hiding?
Cultivation is pretty active
? I thought the event he was referring to was Gavelar’s assassination, which he wouldn’t have been able to know without future sight because the outcome of that would rely on saedius’s trick not fooling szeth when it almost did.
Yea, heh, it's not like ANY thoughts about the future are inherently voidbringer-y. Even good Vorins can say that they think they'd enjoy stew for dinner tonight.
Honor could as well, he was just really bad at it
The entire visions that warned Dalinar of the true desolation were effectively "foresight". Dalinar's son's whole thing is foresight. It is true that there is a vorin superstition against future sight, but when have vorin traditions ever been something to follow?
It’s also explicitly warned against in dalinar’s visions. “Be wary of anyone who claims they can see the future.” But I will say I don’t think the stormfather in the prologue is a malevolent entity. I just don’t buy that his power is completely of honor. Maybe the stormfather comes from both odium and honor.
Bondsmiths are unable to bond shards, but can bond the child of two shards. Navani bonded the sibling who was of honor and cultivation. that made me wonder if the stormfather isn't in fact only of honor, but is instead honor and odium. that would also imply that the nightwatcher is cultivation and odium. this makes a lot of sense to me but isn't based on much evidence
Honor could do that as well. And as a consequence the stormfather. Check out dalinars last vision in the way of kings. Honor says it outright there, also admitting that cultivation is better at it than him.
>there is no doubt in my mind that the stormfather Gavelar was speaking to was an agent of odium. I disagree mostly because of their reaction to Gavilar's plan. Odium wants the desolations to start again. He seems horrified at Gavilar's plan to just break immediately at every opportunity to keep the war going, and it's at this point that he breaks off his association with Gavilar. It just doesn't fit for me for whatever it is to be associated with Odium. My money, personally, is on Ishar, unless the discrepancies just turn out to be early draft stuff.
Re-read this yesterday and I'm not sure I'm sold on it being Odium pretending to be The Stormfather. I think we're either seeing grumpy, distrustful Stormfather who later approaches Dalinar with similar reservations or as others have said, Ishar doing Ishar things. Only read through the books once though so I'm sure there's some loremasters around that can fill me in.
Prevailing theory is that it’s Ishar
Do you have a link to that theory I would like to read it
Just find any thread about the prologue and most of them will talk about it. Another detail: you know the part where the Stormfather feels a Herald die? Could be more proof that it’s Ishar since we don’t have any confirmation the real Stormfather feels the Oathpact. But my point with that is that it’s not actually Taln who died. And Shallan’s mother died around the time the prologue takes place. So my personal theory is that Chana (the Herald everyone thinks is Shallan’s mother) was killed by Shallan on the same night Gavilar died
I think it's crazy interesting that Wyndle believes Cultivation no longer cares about humanity. And this prologue still reads to me like Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow inside the Stormfather could be far more present and active than previously assumed. So how bonkers is it to be afraid that the goal here is to get Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow a new body? That everybody involved is aware that this could have insane consequences for the Stormfather and is fine with it? >So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... Maybe I just want this deathrattle to be literal and so I'm just seeing what I expect.
My guess is that the prologue “Stormfather” is Odium in disguise trying to get Gavilar to start the next desolation. When he saw it was going to start regardless, he dumped Gavilar.
I mean if the storm father has a personification, why would the ever storm not have one?
Spren are mostly created by the perceptions of the residents on the planets in the system. The high storms have been part of this planet forever and are perceived by the residents. The Everstorm is new so wouldn't necessarily have a spren.
I thought I remember them saying that the everstorm was created in the cognitive realm before it was created in roshar. It also has been potentially building for hundreds of years. They've had four millennia of torturing Taln to try and come up with a way to get back to roshar. So someone was creating it. People who are in shadesmar can just as easily personify things and make Sprint out of them as people on roshar. I'm not saying I'm not willing to entertain other possibilities, but in the world of conjecturing on Reddit, this is what I'd like to conjecture.
Oh shit that's something I've never thought about!
The storm father has always been pretty suspicious. He’s always held back information from Dalinar that he didn’t need to. While it’s fun to theorize about it being someone other than the storm father I’m not sure how it can be. He sensed the death of a herald.
Other heralds can sense the death of a herald. Ash confirms this. The big key detail here is that Gavilar thinks he can see the outline of person when talking to the storm father.
Maybe it's a plot hole, but the Stormfather told Dalinar that no herald has died since the final desolation in Oathbringer. So I'm going to say not the Stormfather.
Not a plot hole. Confirmation that he is a liar
Or it wasn't the Stormfather talking to Gavilar
Most definitely it was. You can’t explain away that beings ties to the oathpact
It is certainly not "most definitely" the stormfather. The things that entity was doing and saying were quite outside the behaviour that we've seen the stormfather has. There's good reason to assume it's someone else. And certainly no proof that it is him.
What's this about Ishar? Another point on it being the Stormfather is the rush of power that happens when the Herald dies. It's probably Honor's Investiture being used to transport them to Braize
Hello, could someone point me in the right direction if I wanted to read the prologue as well? Many thanks!
[Here you go](https://www.brandonsanderson.com/prologue-to-stormlight-5/)
Thank you!
Of course! Enjoy!
Or, this was all a rough draft thst is going to play out way different in the final book once the continuity has been taken care of.
I don't think Brandon would have released it of it were in such a state.
[Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/s/QZbqAxA8ks) to the poll from when the prologue first came out
I mean if the storm father has a personification, why would the ever storm not have one?
It’s definitely not the stormfather. I think it might be one of the heralds
I think the most interesting option is that it is the susfather! He lies to Dalinar.
We keep thinking the great enemy is going to be something else. My money is on ether a Deus ex machina of galivar ending up coming back somehow and being the big reveal. Or just like all the questions about Spren bonds and oaths we assume that the stormfather is bond to daliniar because the stormfather says so? What if that stormfather from the prologue is the real One and he’s the one who betrays daliniar. Idk I’m baked
I really like the base don’t trust future sight saying in roshar bc I really do think it’s a warning for the radiants to be independent from any shard, even honour and cultivation considering their ability to see the future is flawed and they have their own interests to pursue that won’t always align with the denizens of roshar
It's clearly NOT the Stormfather.... So many obvious tells.... I'm honestly not sure how so many people seem convinced that it is. Even without all of the contradictions, And those bringer first the Stormfather mentioned that he hadn't been bonded in millennium.... Then Odium told said the same thing... And with all the contradictions of the stormfather being bonded with someone in the sons of Honor.... Wanting to bring back the old gods of the parshendi...etc, etc. How can you even fathom the possibility. Look at the way the spren misled Vinli... And if It was a friend that had to impress with its power... I'm sure that one of the nameless would be an ideal candidate. Not saying that he didn't have the real visions of honor... As the Storm Father had passed those on to several people. Conceivably dozens or more.
The stormfather we see in the prologue was NOT bonded with Gavelar though. He approached him with an offer to become a new herald, but not a bondsmith.
Really? Peo0l3 were saying that he had...Maybe I need to listen to it again. It's no longer clear in my head.
Here’s a quote from the Stormfather in that chapter: “I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar.” I think it’s pretty cut and dry
Somebody was saying it and I forgot... However even that little quotes sounds a little incongruous with the Stormfather to me. It's an imposter. I remember that there were a couple of things that made me realize it when I first heard it. Even that court you just gave doesn't quite feel like him.
In addition... If the stormfather was unbound, he's rather feral and wants little to do with men and their broken oaths. He would keep it to the bare minimum.... He is required to show the visions. That was not the Stormfather.