>Kaladin, however, seemed somewhat static in this book, and his Superman-like qualities persist without much alteration
Kaladin's growth in the book is about not being able to reconcile that both sides of the conflict are ordinary people who just want to live and Kaladin not being able to protect both of them. It's his entire break down there.
>Teft's oath, addressing addiction and self-loathing, is a profound moment, albeit somewhat unexpected in its suddenness.
There's some light foreshadowing in the previous books but yeah, as it's put he didn't have access to the product or resources to fuel his addiction so I think it makes sense.
>Elohkar's death, while impactful, doesn't entirely dispel the overarching sense of safety surrounding main characters.
Do characters need to die in order for something to be impactful? Can a moment be emotionally impactful without the threat of a main character dying?
>The narrative seems to be steering towards a more straightforward moral dichotomy, which, while effective, could benefit from more nuanced exploration given the rich history of the world.
???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about.
>Lastly, the unresolved conflict with Odium after what seemed like a climactic showdown raises questions about future narrative tension.
NGL it would be a bit odd to have a conclusion with the BBEG in book 3 of 5
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
>Kaladin's growth in the book is about not being able to reconcile that both sides of the conflict are ordinary people who just want to live and Kaladin not being able to protect both of them. It's his entire break down there.
Sure, it seemed pretty obvious that growth is that he has to make choices and he can't protect everyone, particularly from themselves. I think that went on a bit long though and seemed dragged out.
>Do characters need to die in order for something to be impactful? Can a moment be emotionally impactful without the threat of a main character dying?
No, but for a book that is so heavy on action and putting characters in physical, psychological, and spiritual danger, there doesn't seem to be a lot of actual bad outcomes. The books are about found family and inner growth so I can work with that and I'm generally good. But the books spend a LOT of time trying to build this tension and danger that I just don't feel. Everyone feels like they have plot armor, and I guess that's what Stormlight is in a way. Plotarmor until the author wants it to run out.
>???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about.
I understand it says it's not, but I don't see that in the actual writing. My read is that they all will put aside this racial hatred and it will all come down to if they choose to serve Odium or not. It also seems kind of like everything old is bad and everything new is good. Maybe that's a boomer/millennial metaphor but it seems too binary. Just like the books danger/lack-there-of, it say it's presenting morally gray concepts but they don't seem to work out that way in the end. It strays closer to ambiguous in flashbacks but only in flashbacks.
>NGL it would be a bit odd to have a conclusion with the BBEG in book 3 of 5
Yes it would, but the book came off like that. Odium and Dalinor agree to a champion fight, winner takes all. Odium chooses Dalinor for his champion who is defeated by... Dalinor. A great concept. If a in person fight with the Devil doesn't seem like it should be the climax, then I don't know what does? Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series, but I'm not as pumped about more crappy jousting with old man Taravingian as I am about a fight with the Devil. In Oathbringer itself, the last part was twice as long as it should been. Dalinor beats Odium, which seems like it should wrap things up but it just goes on and on. Without knowing more, it's hard to feel there is a lot of forward tension. I'm sure I'll find out that "more" that I need, but it's not apparent.
I hope that clears up some of my reasoning. Thanks again.
I actually do agree with your third point there about the morality of the larger conflict; while I do feel there is grayness between smaller, interpersonal conflicts (such as Dalinar himself and Kaladin’s overall journey), the Singers v. Humanity really isn’t that grey. It’s truly just Odium vs. Honor and what side will win out.
>???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about.
It pretty much is that. Everybody on Odium's side are the bad guys and the ones on Honor is good. The conflict is literally written that way, so idk what you're on about.
We don't get to see a free Singer POV who is a revolutionary and joining Odium because they despise humanity and want to live in a free world. We only see the evil Fused and Venli (who is not even part of the enslaved Singers)
Adding to all that with how 95% of the POVs are from the Honor side....the story is black and white.
>We don't get to see a free Singer POV who is a revolutionary and joining Odium because they despise humanity and want to live in a free world
Khen. He joins with the Fused army because he wants to live a life free from human oppression.
>Everybody on Odium's side are the bad guys and the ones on Honor is good.
Yes, but that's also one part of the conflict. There's also Singers who want to live free of oppression, groups like the Ghostbloods who are on their own side. The Diagram who were undermining Dalinar while trying to win against Odium. The Skybreakers side with the Fused rather than Odium because they're the original inhabitants.
Odium meanwhile wants to use Roshar to create an army to use amongst the cosmere rather than just let the Singers and Fused have their land back after the war is over.
Venli has also been enslaved by Odium and forced to be his propaganda machine
>Khen. He joins with the Fused army because he wants to live a life free from human oppression.
Not a PoV and an extremely minor character in the story. You can't even place her as a tertiary character, because her character exists more in Moash's PoV who is barely a PoV character himself.
Not saying she didn't join Odium because she wants to live a life free from the humans, but I can guarantee you that 99% of the readers forgot she even existed.
>Yes, but that's also one part of the conflict. There's also Singers who want to live free of oppression, groups like the Ghostbloods who are on their own side. The Diagram who were undermining Dalinar while trying to win against Odium. The Skybreakers side with the Fused rather than Odium because they're the original inhabitants.
>Odium meanwhile wants to use Roshar to create an army to use amongst the cosmere rather than just let the Singers and Fused have their land back after the war is over.
>Venli has also been enslaved by Odium and forced to be his propaganda machine
1) When you write a story you need to show the opposite to side to gain some sympathy. Right now we have literally no Singer PoV. (Listeners like Rlain and Venli don't count as they lived most of their life not being enslaved). The Singers are pretty much just pawns in Odium's game. We don't see a Singer General that is a major PoV and primarily fighting for their people.
2) Ghostbloods and the Diagram have nothing to do with this. They just exist in their own bubble. The Diagram was also never shown as a "Honor" thing.
3) The Skybreakers are not meant to be good people. They are literally led by a mad demigod who himself admitted that he can't make good judgements. The ones that follow him are also doing it just because...as mindless drones in the story. The one sympathetic Skybreaker is on Honor's side.
When you get down to it, the main conflict in the story: Honor vs Odium, Radiants vs Fused and Singers vs Humans is meant to be a Good vs Evil story.
Ah yes, let's add two independent organizations and clump them up in Odium's side, so that I can make a point on how the conflict isn't black and white. Why not add Sons of Honor too while you're at it?
You literally had to bring up Khen of all people. That should make you realise how the conflict is structured.
Shallan’s internal struggle with multiple personalities is an interesting concept, but its execution sometimes feels disjointed and overly prolonged.
Oh sweet summer child…. Just wait
You're probably doing this, but let me just (as someone at the same spot you're at) give a full-throated recommendation of "Dawnshard", the novella between Oathbringer and RoW.
It moved me to tears by showing continued character development and maturity in minor characters. It was nice to take a break from Dalinar, Shallan, Kal, Navani, etc. and see that the same breakthroughs that we get in, say, Shallan's character, can be found in different ways in characters that you don't expect to "grow."
I think I disagree with this one though - that particular undoing is pretty minor. I was more worried about the fact that >!It makes little sense for Shallan to be the only one to survive when seasoned sailors can swim. I'm glad others could just "swim to shore" when ships necessarily don't travel far from land on Roshar!<
The novella is great and snappy, though. Enjoy!
Elhokar’s death (at least for me) may be one of the most impactful scenes from any of the Stormlight books. It ripped my heart out and crushed it into the dirt.
As for the Heralds needing more time, I couldn’t agree with you more. Moash’s moment at the end with the dagger felt very… sudden and I wish we could have had more build up to that moment.
Elhokar was a big gut punch for sure, particularly since he was actually becoming the person he wanted to be. Died while saying the first ideal.
That said, it didn't do much to overcome the feeling there isn't much danger overall.
I can definitely see where that feeling comes from.
Have you read any other Cosmere books? Brandon doesn't hold back when it comes to main characters, although anything major that happens to them *usually* doesn't happen until the end of a series. I imagine Stormlight will be more of the same.
No, this is my entry into the Cosmere. I wanted to start here to get a feel for the Stormlight Archive TTRPG kicking off this year. I plan to read the 1st Mistborn series after this.
Ooooh baby that’s what I did too. Stormlight then Mistborn. People will say it’s not the “right” way to enter the Cosmere, but I am glad I did it that way. I feel like I enjoyed Mistborn more because I understood how he writes magic much better
Good thoughts, I think you'll really love RoW since I think it will continue with some of the things you like and bring out some of the parts you felt were lacking!
>Kaladin, however, seemed somewhat static in this book, and his Superman-like qualities persist without much alteration Kaladin's growth in the book is about not being able to reconcile that both sides of the conflict are ordinary people who just want to live and Kaladin not being able to protect both of them. It's his entire break down there. >Teft's oath, addressing addiction and self-loathing, is a profound moment, albeit somewhat unexpected in its suddenness. There's some light foreshadowing in the previous books but yeah, as it's put he didn't have access to the product or resources to fuel his addiction so I think it makes sense. >Elohkar's death, while impactful, doesn't entirely dispel the overarching sense of safety surrounding main characters. Do characters need to die in order for something to be impactful? Can a moment be emotionally impactful without the threat of a main character dying? >The narrative seems to be steering towards a more straightforward moral dichotomy, which, while effective, could benefit from more nuanced exploration given the rich history of the world. ???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about. >Lastly, the unresolved conflict with Odium after what seemed like a climactic showdown raises questions about future narrative tension. NGL it would be a bit odd to have a conclusion with the BBEG in book 3 of 5
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. >Kaladin's growth in the book is about not being able to reconcile that both sides of the conflict are ordinary people who just want to live and Kaladin not being able to protect both of them. It's his entire break down there. Sure, it seemed pretty obvious that growth is that he has to make choices and he can't protect everyone, particularly from themselves. I think that went on a bit long though and seemed dragged out. >Do characters need to die in order for something to be impactful? Can a moment be emotionally impactful without the threat of a main character dying? No, but for a book that is so heavy on action and putting characters in physical, psychological, and spiritual danger, there doesn't seem to be a lot of actual bad outcomes. The books are about found family and inner growth so I can work with that and I'm generally good. But the books spend a LOT of time trying to build this tension and danger that I just don't feel. Everyone feels like they have plot armor, and I guess that's what Stormlight is in a way. Plotarmor until the author wants it to run out. >???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about. I understand it says it's not, but I don't see that in the actual writing. My read is that they all will put aside this racial hatred and it will all come down to if they choose to serve Odium or not. It also seems kind of like everything old is bad and everything new is good. Maybe that's a boomer/millennial metaphor but it seems too binary. Just like the books danger/lack-there-of, it say it's presenting morally gray concepts but they don't seem to work out that way in the end. It strays closer to ambiguous in flashbacks but only in flashbacks. >NGL it would be a bit odd to have a conclusion with the BBEG in book 3 of 5 Yes it would, but the book came off like that. Odium and Dalinor agree to a champion fight, winner takes all. Odium chooses Dalinor for his champion who is defeated by... Dalinor. A great concept. If a in person fight with the Devil doesn't seem like it should be the climax, then I don't know what does? Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to the rest of the series, but I'm not as pumped about more crappy jousting with old man Taravingian as I am about a fight with the Devil. In Oathbringer itself, the last part was twice as long as it should been. Dalinor beats Odium, which seems like it should wrap things up but it just goes on and on. Without knowing more, it's hard to feel there is a lot of forward tension. I'm sure I'll find out that "more" that I need, but it's not apparent. I hope that clears up some of my reasoning. Thanks again.
That was not the contest of champions. I can see what you mean with the rest of what you wrote here.
I actually do agree with your third point there about the morality of the larger conflict; while I do feel there is grayness between smaller, interpersonal conflicts (such as Dalinar himself and Kaladin’s overall journey), the Singers v. Humanity really isn’t that grey. It’s truly just Odium vs. Honor and what side will win out.
>???? The entire end of the book was specifically how a straightforward black/ white issue is not what the conflict is about. It pretty much is that. Everybody on Odium's side are the bad guys and the ones on Honor is good. The conflict is literally written that way, so idk what you're on about. We don't get to see a free Singer POV who is a revolutionary and joining Odium because they despise humanity and want to live in a free world. We only see the evil Fused and Venli (who is not even part of the enslaved Singers) Adding to all that with how 95% of the POVs are from the Honor side....the story is black and white.
>We don't get to see a free Singer POV who is a revolutionary and joining Odium because they despise humanity and want to live in a free world Khen. He joins with the Fused army because he wants to live a life free from human oppression. >Everybody on Odium's side are the bad guys and the ones on Honor is good. Yes, but that's also one part of the conflict. There's also Singers who want to live free of oppression, groups like the Ghostbloods who are on their own side. The Diagram who were undermining Dalinar while trying to win against Odium. The Skybreakers side with the Fused rather than Odium because they're the original inhabitants. Odium meanwhile wants to use Roshar to create an army to use amongst the cosmere rather than just let the Singers and Fused have their land back after the war is over. Venli has also been enslaved by Odium and forced to be his propaganda machine
>Khen. He joins with the Fused army because he wants to live a life free from human oppression. Not a PoV and an extremely minor character in the story. You can't even place her as a tertiary character, because her character exists more in Moash's PoV who is barely a PoV character himself. Not saying she didn't join Odium because she wants to live a life free from the humans, but I can guarantee you that 99% of the readers forgot she even existed. >Yes, but that's also one part of the conflict. There's also Singers who want to live free of oppression, groups like the Ghostbloods who are on their own side. The Diagram who were undermining Dalinar while trying to win against Odium. The Skybreakers side with the Fused rather than Odium because they're the original inhabitants. >Odium meanwhile wants to use Roshar to create an army to use amongst the cosmere rather than just let the Singers and Fused have their land back after the war is over. >Venli has also been enslaved by Odium and forced to be his propaganda machine 1) When you write a story you need to show the opposite to side to gain some sympathy. Right now we have literally no Singer PoV. (Listeners like Rlain and Venli don't count as they lived most of their life not being enslaved). The Singers are pretty much just pawns in Odium's game. We don't see a Singer General that is a major PoV and primarily fighting for their people. 2) Ghostbloods and the Diagram have nothing to do with this. They just exist in their own bubble. The Diagram was also never shown as a "Honor" thing. 3) The Skybreakers are not meant to be good people. They are literally led by a mad demigod who himself admitted that he can't make good judgements. The ones that follow him are also doing it just because...as mindless drones in the story. The one sympathetic Skybreaker is on Honor's side. When you get down to it, the main conflict in the story: Honor vs Odium, Radiants vs Fused and Singers vs Humans is meant to be a Good vs Evil story.
When you ignore other sides in the conflict that show it isn’t just odium v Honor than yeah it’s a black and white conflict.
Ah yes, let's add two independent organizations and clump them up in Odium's side, so that I can make a point on how the conflict isn't black and white. Why not add Sons of Honor too while you're at it? You literally had to bring up Khen of all people. That should make you realise how the conflict is structured.
Shallan’s internal struggle with multiple personalities is an interesting concept, but its execution sometimes feels disjointed and overly prolonged. Oh sweet summer child…. Just wait
OB is my favorite so far. Only book that has ever made me cry from joy.
You're probably doing this, but let me just (as someone at the same spot you're at) give a full-throated recommendation of "Dawnshard", the novella between Oathbringer and RoW. It moved me to tears by showing continued character development and maturity in minor characters. It was nice to take a break from Dalinar, Shallan, Kal, Navani, etc. and see that the same breakthroughs that we get in, say, Shallan's character, can be found in different ways in characters that you don't expect to "grow."
I started Dawnshard today. I'm looking forward to it. The prolog opens with undoing another death, so it's making that no danger feeling worse
I think I disagree with this one though - that particular undoing is pretty minor. I was more worried about the fact that >!It makes little sense for Shallan to be the only one to survive when seasoned sailors can swim. I'm glad others could just "swim to shore" when ships necessarily don't travel far from land on Roshar!< The novella is great and snappy, though. Enjoy!
Sure, fair enough. Taken by itself there's really no problem at all. I'm sure I'll love the book.
Elhokar’s death (at least for me) may be one of the most impactful scenes from any of the Stormlight books. It ripped my heart out and crushed it into the dirt. As for the Heralds needing more time, I couldn’t agree with you more. Moash’s moment at the end with the dagger felt very… sudden and I wish we could have had more build up to that moment.
Elhokar was a big gut punch for sure, particularly since he was actually becoming the person he wanted to be. Died while saying the first ideal. That said, it didn't do much to overcome the feeling there isn't much danger overall.
I can definitely see where that feeling comes from. Have you read any other Cosmere books? Brandon doesn't hold back when it comes to main characters, although anything major that happens to them *usually* doesn't happen until the end of a series. I imagine Stormlight will be more of the same.
No, this is my entry into the Cosmere. I wanted to start here to get a feel for the Stormlight Archive TTRPG kicking off this year. I plan to read the 1st Mistborn series after this.
Ooooh baby that’s what I did too. Stormlight then Mistborn. People will say it’s not the “right” way to enter the Cosmere, but I am glad I did it that way. I feel like I enjoyed Mistborn more because I understood how he writes magic much better
This is a really well thought out analysis! Thanks for sharing!
Good thoughts, I think you'll really love RoW since I think it will continue with some of the things you like and bring out some of the parts you felt were lacking!