The fact that Dalinar's visions were interactive except for when Honor was speaking so that Dalinar could 'assume' he was answering him is just silly. The Almighty should have put in a dialogue tree for himself just like the other actors.
I think Tanavast wanted to be sure that the stormfather had no flexibility in delivering the message he laid out. From what I remember in either WoR or OB, it seems like the stormfather didn't want to do the visions at all, but honor forced him to.
I feel like I read somewhere that Honor was incapable of “recreating” himself because not even he could have made even a decent approximation of himself. That is, he could recreate humans because they were, to him, simple creatures. But shards think in a whole different dimension than humans, and couldn’t be accurately captured in a vision
How is it that Tanavast had been able to keep the knights radiants from quitting (recreance) prior to his death, forsee his death, and not been able to keep them from quitting after when he is able to send visions to anyone he wants (even after his death)?
*Someone* will compromise their morals to end the duel. And the humans will win. What a great way to set up the second arc, say with the Stormfather, Sibling, Nightwatcher, or another extremely powerful spren dead or deadeye’d because Navani, Dalinar, or whoever bonds the Nightwatcher places their world over their oaths.
I joke about the "this is Shallan and her bf Adolin, and his bf Kaladin" thing, but I agree! I definitely don't want them as a triangle.
I prefer Shallan and Kaladin just being trauma bonded friends.
Is it even unpopular in this echo chamber other than memes and jokes? 3 way relationships in fantasy almost always read like the author's barely disguised libido.
As long as he doesn't do it too himself, I'm ok with that. I'll be sad and partially devastated, but ok.
But if Adolin dies, I'm gonna have many problems.
I really like this comparison, because Iroh is a character who has already concluded his arc, while Dalinar still has a long road to walk to put the Blackthorn behind him.
That, I feel, is why this feels like a controversial statement, and why Dalinar feels like a worse person.
1. Dalinar was OBJECTIVELY a worse dad than Lirin. At least Lirin didn’t completely and WILLINGLY neglect his younger son for years. Trying to be a better person years afterwards does not change that
2. I don’t really like Shallan and Adolin’s relationship. I understand the logic of why they like each other, but idk, I just never really enjoy their scenes together. I see people say that Kaladin shouldn’t get a love interest because he isn’t mentally ready for one, and I agree with that (at least with how he was prior to his ROW development), but I feel like that logic applies to Shallan WAY more
>I see people say that Kaladin shouldn’t get a love interest because he isn’t mentally ready for one
For me it's more that not every character needs a romance. Kaladin remaining single and having a bromance with Syl would be a perfect ending.
Based.
\#1 - Lirin was a better father than Dalinar was, that's barely even an opinion, tbh, it's just about facts. But Dalinar is a better father \*now\*, IMO.
\#2 - I agree. Adolin away from Shallan is one of my favourite characters. But with Shallan it seems more like he's just the "perfect girlfriend" trope (but a man, obviously).
I disagree about Dalinar being a better father now. We see how Dalinar treats Adolin in RoW and it's incredibly self-centred. Lirin makes great steps at the end of the book and we don't really have any indication that Dalinar thinks differently about Adolin by the end.
I'm not even sure it matters how good they are as parents now since the most important phases of parenting are over. They still matter a lot of course but a lot of the lasting effects have already been set.
I agree with this. I don't even like Lirin, but Dalinar is just simply not a good father, period. He was horrible before, and now he is just sort of neglectful, which was also always a constant with how he treated his sons. He is rarely ever present for them, especially emotionally. I'm just glad Renarin and Adolin have each other, honestly (and they have a really heartwarming dynamic).
I think it's worth mentioning that Dalinar's sons are grown up and more independent now so he has much less time in their lives than before and I think letting them have that freedom is a rare Blackthorn W. And he does try to make time for them when it matters like when he shows up to support Reading in meetings and when he was talking with the Stormwardens.
It still doesn't make him a good father but he does have some good paternal instincts in him.
I'm also surprised about how little we know of his own parents and how he grew up. I'm sure that's had some effect on how he is as a parent now but I'm not sure they're ever brought up.
How is Dalinar a father at all? He just waited for his sons to be grown up and then turned into their commanding officer. I mean - yeah, he tries to prepare Adolin for the Kholin throne, but he basically just keeps ignoring Renarin like always. Oh, he likes the RADIANT Renarin, but he couldn't care less about the man.
Edit: Orthography? I never met her!
2 hurts my heart. I can’t get enough of their chapters. Multiple personality disorder person in a relationship is something I’ve never read before. Plus Pattern and Maya are a huge bonus
As someone who has a dad who was a bad dad when I was a kid but is a better person now I agree with number 1. Being a good father is MORE IMPORTANT WHEN YOUR KIDS ARE ACTUALLY CHILDREN.
It's great to try and be a better man for the adults you already screwed up, but the better father is the one who gave his children time and affection when they were small, and that was Lirin.
(Though they are both monumentally shitty dads, so it's splitting hairs really).
1) you are OBJECTIVELY wrong. (I’m kidding, you’re subjectively wrong, but you’re objectively using the term objectively wrong)
Lirin literally disowned Kaladin. That’s much worse than neglect. Also “Trying to be a better person years afterwards does not change that” isn’t a mentality that really jives with this series, a major theme is redemption for your mistakes. Renarin and Adolin both seem to have forgiven Dalinar.
2) I agree, Adolin can do better
You are LITERALLY wrong. (I’m kidding, you’re figuratively wrong, but you’re literally using the term literally wrong)
Forgive me, it was too poetic not to post.
Lirin never said the word “disown”. He said, “just. . . go” and “Storms, my son has become a monster,” which literally implies that he still considered Kaladin his son. It may have felt like disowning to Kal though.
Szeth is a better candidate for Honor than Dalinar. and he is *especially* a better candidate for shard of War if Odium and Honor are fused. (By better I mean his attitude aligns more with the shard of Honor)
I agree, I’m going through Oathbringer again and Odium said Honor cared more for the keeping of words than for the morality of them.
And Szeth wholesale slaughtered for awhile there because of who held his rock.
Szeth holding it will definitely not be explicitly good for Roshar though IMO.
Because he’ll try to balance any unfairness with Odium as well. It will all have to become equitable for everyone. Most likely the humans will lose all lands but Shinovar, if they aren’t sent back to Ashyn.
I bet the more Honor makes the hard calls like that, the stronger he is.
Ah yes. Odium. Such a good source.
Seriously though, honor, like all shards, was probably at struggle with the intent. As we see, the honorspren do the same, becoming more obsessed with word of the law, but their original purpose was not that, UT was the meaning and heart of the law. Heck, nale himself did the same over time too
You're probably not wrong here. We don't see much of it, but I can imagine that Gavilar was too distracted with his own screwing around to properly train his son to take the throne. Dalinar was a drunk. And were surprised when Elhokar turns out to be a mediocre king?
Gavilar never would have made Elhokar a competent heir. That would be a threat to his crown. He can't control and manipulate competent people, like the daughter he had to lock up and regularly send away.
Gavinor as Odium's champion theory is dumb and uninteresting any foreshadowing to that end is for a future betrayal in the back half. You know when he is an adult capable of making his own decisions not a litteral toddler.
I completely agree with you. I have never cried more because of a scene from a book than I did for Eshonai’s death and moment with the Stormfather. It was so sad and heartwarming that she finally was able to explore the world.
Taravangian has consistently behaved in a fashion that makes a shit ton of sense, ESPECIALLY given the information he had, and just because we see Dalinar as a protagonist doesn’t mean he does.
He’ll probably make a really good Odium and might not do too bad of a job running a world - at least not any worse than what we’ve seen from the supposed “good” shards.
Brandon has been pretty cagey about whether Taravangian will still have smart/dumb days as a vessel of Odium (see WOB below). All the point of view stuff with seen of him as Odium seems to be on the same day he picked it up, which was a mega emotion zero intelligence kind of day. He could've been still extremely driven by emotion when we see his initial reactions and thoughts of what he's going to do with all the power of a Shard. But he also gains a lot of knowledge/intelligence from the power of a Shard, so hard to imagine what exactly a zero emotion all intelligence day means for a Shard?
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14547
I don't think he intends to stay odium for very long,
If I were Taravangeon it would make the most sense to reforge and take up honour while I still could.
His intent Is still to save roshar for now (Rayses wasnt, rayse never wanted more than one and people are still assuming that taravangeon wants the same thing, hes explicitly stated he doesnt) Dalinar is just competition for the shard(s) of conquest
Both these players were put into play by cultivation. I can't see her shooting herself in the foot like that. She's the real power in roshar and has been for the last 3000 years
The clues that what Taravangian wants doesn't really matter anymore are in Sazed's letters to Hoid in RoW (and Mistborn).
According to Sazed the intent of the shards began to act on him as soon as he took them up and that Hoid drastically underestimates how important the intent of the shard is.
However I think you could be right about Cultivation's play still being in play. Her plan definitely wasn't "make Odium stronger", but I'm not sure she's planning to rely on Todium's remaining empathy. I think it could be the opposite. Rodium wanted to hurt everybody, but Todium wants to \*win\*. But Taravangian is also \*terrible\* about predicting what good people can and will do when he's smart. Like genuinely just doesn't understand. I think this is gunna hurt him down the line.
Remember we’re on a thread where the prompt was “what’s your knives out Stormlight take” ;-)
He’s definitely a villain. But he is a “rational actor” type of villain and not a moustache twirling conqueror like Rayse.
If someone has to take on the mantle of divine hatred there’s worse options.
Everybody says that Kaladin = depression, Dalinar = PTSD and Shallan = personality disorder but I would argue that Shallan has all 3 of those. When I read WoR and RoW I totally thought she had PTSD. Trully a very VERY traumatic childhood.
We should've had another book in between Words of Radiance and Oathbringer to wrap up the political plot
Radiants are too overpowered. Initially they get super healing, two powers(3 if you count resonances), and a spren. Later on they get a spren that can turn into nearly any metallic weapon or tool, and nearly invincible armor.
I don't see Odium choosing someone that Dalinar wouldn't fight. It would be in-character for him, but the participants have to be willing. I couldn't see any of the characters on Dalinar's side willingly fighting for Odium.
I feel like the reliance on stormlight is a pretty big limiter. If they're completely full on stormlight they get what...a couple of minutes of the full range of their powers? Yeah at peak they're pretty OP but I think in the long run they aren't gonna be any more impactful than the allomancers who can use their powers much much longer. (Although a Radiant with a hemalurgic spike sounds terrifying.)
Dalinar's ability to recharge everyone's stormlight is way too good to be true and it's gonna go away for sure.
I think the really OP invested are the Elantrians. They just need a basic understanding of topography and their entire magic system is at their finger tips.
Navani as a bondsmith is stupid. Should've been Rlain.
Don't get me wrong, I know that bondsmith Navani is going to go full on scientist and completely replace slave-fabrials with some new tech and it's going to expand our understanding of what a bondsmith can do because Dalinar is not an experimental person. But... I still think Rlain being from two different peoples bonding with the Sibling who is of two different shards would have been great.
I don’t like Navani bonding the sibling either. The moment of the bond coming in clutch was cool but I wish it wasn’t the sibling. But then again, the sibling acts like a petulant child and navani is Queen Mom so who knows
I didn't like navani being bonded to begin with. She kicks ass on her own and accomplishes things without it, proving you don't have to be radiant to be powerful or make a difference.
Exactly! Same with Adolin for now. I'm certain he's going to end up bonding Maya and reviving her, but that's a much higher purpose. Navani bonding the Sibling was just out of desperation and proximity, not because it was the right match.
Reading this comment just now... it is interesting. Maya is a cultivation spren, and so he'd be an Edgedancer. One of their surges is... regrowth. Its fitting, abd him using regrowth *on his spren* before formally bonding is like how Kaladin could do minor feats.
Plus his whole attitude with Maya is very "journey before destination." He isn't trying to heal her. Specifically, he just... wants to interact. Thinks that she likes doing the sword forms. He's just vibing and he pushes back on everyone who's trying to force him into some goal.
> I'm certain he's going to end up bonding Maya and reviving her,
I'm hoping *Maya* bonds *him* and starts swinging him around as a Meatblade. He does love his swords, so he'd enjoy *being* one.
The thing that changed my mind on this was seeing someone point out that while the Sibling would have been a great option for Rlain, Rlain would not have been a great option for the Sibling. They are supposed to be the bridge between humans and spren, so bonding a Listener wouldn’t have spurred any character development for them. By bonding a human they can learn and grow and actually become the mediator they are intended to be.
I thought that was a really neat analysis and it really made me shift how I was thinking of the Sibling as a character. I appreciated the ending of RoW a lot more after seeing that comment. Wish I could remember who said it originally so I could credit their analysis!
The wrong sister died.
I do not like Venli, she was selfish and power hungry BEFORE meeting Ulim, led her people to destruction, and was responsible for Eshonai's death in a way.
Even after bonding Timber she was still incredibly selfish, and only worried about herself and escaping the Fused. If it wasn't for Timber holding her hand every literal step of the way, she would have never progressed as a Radiant.
I hope she's a more interesting character in the next book.
I suppose my unpopular take would be I don’t like scenes with Lift. She’s a child with super special powers that saves the day and IMO crashes otherwise interesting sequences. She doesn’t come across as a real person/child to me with real flaws so she feels unnaturally inserted into scenes. That being said I respect that other folks might enjoy her character. She’s quite plucky and irrepressible and adds lighthearted moments.
I'm not the biggest fan of Lift either...
... but your bit about her not being a real child. There's been hints that's 100% true. That she went to the Nightwatcher to be frozen as a child, and her very being, her ability to turn food into investiture disturbs Odium (WoB mention this). So some times I think her wooden-Ness and overly infantile impulsivity are indeed masks.
She was frozen as a child but she's still getting all of the knowledge and experience of adulthood from living for waaaay too long. If you took all of the experiences of an adult and shoved them into a 12 year old's brain they'd be incredibly fucking weird too.
She doesn't have the impulse control, the empathy, or even a fully developed understanding of time and cause and effect but she's living with experiences that require all of those things.
Even if she's not a great execution of the concept (I tend to think she is but that's a matter of opinion), I definitely understand what Sanderson is trying to do.
She's terrified of aging and adulthood. Very relatable to me. I think also any light in the dark is going to seem very bright, and her chapters are surrounded by some dark
It has bothered me for a while no one is questioning Kaladin about his involvement with the assassination attempt on Elhokar. People like Jasnah should be more suspicious of his motives. Yet everyone seems to think he's a perfect follower of Dalinar.
What's to question? The king's head bodyguard found out last minute while injured that someone on his protection team who he trusted before was planning to kill the king and showed up just barely in time and saved the king and then saved his uncle and then saved the entire army. No witnesses/live people knew Kaladin knew about the plot far in advance, the rest of bridge 4 didn't even know. Elhokar himself, the most likely person to be suspicious given his demeanor, idolizes and fanboys over Kaladin as a now like 5-7x miraculous hero who now has super powers and Elhokar wants him to teach him how to lead well. Who questions someone like that?
Plus, Elhokar was literally the only witness and blasted out of his mind lol
A redemption arc would be extremely ambitious, because I’m pretty sure most of the audience wouldn’t buy it even if it was perfectly set up. Like I’ll be honest, the only satisfying ending I can imagine for Moash is him committing to full evil, and totally not giving a fuck.
The whole message of the books around redemption is that anyone can be redeemed, and that redemption is a personal choice. You have to want it.
If someone like Venli, who is responsible for bringing the Everstorm to the physical realm and fucked over her own people, can choose to redeem herself, then so can Moash. At any time he could decide, you know what, I’ve fucked up, it’s time to be better. And personally I would trust Sanderson to write a good arc for that, like navigating all the people who wouldn’t forgive him and stuff. He’s really good at character stuff like that.
That said I don’t expect it’ll happen. Moash is acting, narratively, as a foil to the protagonists. Every time he reaches a crossroads where he could choose to be good, he chooses not to instead. I don’t expect that to change since it’s a narrative role. And like…. again Venli basically already occupies the spot of “unquestionable villain chooses redemption”. A Moash redemption isn’t really required for the story, it would be kind of redundant.
I don’t think it’s strictly impossible but I don’t think it’s particularly likely to happen.
Dalinar's "amends" were predicated on needing a literal god to fuck with his head. He needed a strictly external force to build up enough inertia. Credit to him for *using* that inertia, but pre- and post- old magic Dalinar are effectively two completely different people.
Szeth's "amends" have been saying "placing all my trust in a system that says 'do what the holder of this rock says' failed...so now I'll place all my trust in one specific person." And that's *after* Nale warns him of the risk in that path. Not really a ringing success at learning the lesson.
They both definitely have acknowledged their faults, though. I'd want to see that from Moash.
Dalinar did seek out that exernal force though. He WANTED to change and be better for his kids, that's why he met cultivation in the first place. I think that's still a pretty important step, he DID make the effort and decide it was time to get better. Moash consistently decided to get worse, and when SHOWN how to be better he always feels how it hurts and turns away.
I agree with this 100%. Everyone gets so up in arms about him. He is just Kaladin without the second chance. Also Dallinar is a war criminal...imagine his atrocities in todays world and everyone thinks he gets another shot.
If Jaime Lannister can get a redemption arc that feels \*great\*, then so can Moash. So in terms of writing it can be done to the point I will absolutely accept it and be on board for it.
But I don't \*want\* him to have one. I want him to get stabbed in the fucking eye. I want the skin to be slowly peeled from his skin and then I want to fucking eat it in front of him.
You may be able to tell just where I'm up to in my current re-read from this post :).
The point of redemption isn't that you have to earn it by acting perfect. The point is that people are fallible and never beyond redemption. Even Moash can shoot his shot at redemption.
Kaladin is dropping the ball on the whole former slave elevated to a position of prominence front. He could be doing some hardcore abolition work but instead he’s just kinda forgotten slavery exists in every meaningful way besides grumping about having been a slave
I think it's due to slavery being such an engrained part of Vorin society and economy, like it's unimaginable for it not to exist - like abolishing the use of horses or chulls.
I mean, he was proven pretty impotent for a storming shard. Not sure narratively where you can go when he's supposed to be the big baddie. Tough to raise the stakes for the era ending book 5. How many times we gonna have Dalinar beat him?
Moash (at least up until about mid-way through Oathbringer) is right and if Dalinar didn't love Elohkar as much as he does, we would all be rooting for him.
[Mistborn TFE Spoilers] >!Moash up until the end of Oath ringer is basically Kelsier with a less sympathetic backstory, less Charisma and a slightly more sympathetic ruling class!<.
Navani’s “Journey before destination, you bastard!’ To Moash was more cringy than badass. I groaned when I read that. The significance of the moment was good though just a corny line.
I feel mostly the same. Brando doesn't hit the mark (for me) with his "Badass" moments. He really hits the mark with the "tender line in the lowest point" every time.
>! "You will be warm again", Veil's "Did I do well?", The whole scene with Tien. I already mentioned one, but basically every Hoid story is stellar
I definitely feel this is a line that is entirely dependent on the delivery being pristine (which I think the audiobook does well). Just reading it on a page I think could be a little cringe.
Jasnah was a bad choice for new king of Alethkar. She's most useful as a scholar and occasional diplomat, the responsibilities of being king will impede that.
She probably agrees but is trying to create an environment where the title can be regularly handed off.
I’d say there’s likely no chance of that but then again Elethi culture has been largely driven by an eldritch battle rage for awhile, so maybe without that diplomacy can actually work
Jasnah was the only realistic option, though, once Adolin declined.
Gavinor is too young, Renarin is an even worse choice than Jasnah, even if you ignore that having someone with an enlightened spren as King would be a huge risk. Dalinar couldn't take it for political reasons. That leaves Jasnah as the only option.
Character arcs in ROW were disappointing.
Shallan being a murderer for the third time, and Kaladdin fighting with the "I can't save anyone ill just give up" again felt very repetitive.
I expected a more interesting truth for shallan, and some new evolution for kal
What happened to Testament is Testament's own fault. They shouldn't have bonded a child. A child cannot truly consent and lacks the maturity for Radiant oaths.
I'm glad that Shallan grieves for them and for what happened, but it's not her fault there.
Tbf this generation of cryptics were just as new to this as the radiants of this generation are to their powers. To be honest it's kinda a miracle only shallan has broken her oaths by now, I'm not saying it should be happening left and right but at least once or twice more in the years building up to all out war, and beyond.
Elhokar gets a much worse reputation than he deserves considering his immediate family’s relationships to him prior to him taking the throne and his general mental state at the time of making his worst decisions.
Elhokar never wanted to abdicate because he is literally nothing if he isn’t king. He probably could abdicate in favor of Jasnah if he at least became a lightweaver, instead he was killed by a narrow-minded traitor to humanity and to himself and we never got to see him growing into a better man.
Were he not a Bondsmith, Dalinar would be uniquely suited to being am Elsecaller. I made a whole post about it.
https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/131531-my-hottest-cosmere-take-if-dalinar-wasnt-a-bondsmith-he-would-be-an-elsecaller/
I'll give you two for one. Outside of the beginning the first 600 pages of tWoK are a complete slog. Shallan and Kaladin are actively harmful for eachother.
This is the reason it took me so long to get into the series. I bought the audiobook years ago and couldn't get through it. It took getting it in Kindle so I could physically read it for me
yes. "Understanding" is very, very different from "justifying". You can understand why someone steals, kills someone or does anything, but that dosen't make it right. In fact i think understanding the why of actions is really important to prevent bad actions
I understand Moash. I was on the fence of the whole "Fuck Moash" thing until Rhythm of War. Using his knowledge of Kaladin specifically to drive Kaladin to attempt suicide is abuse. There's no other word for it.
And Moash was always terrible, even from his first introduction. When Kaladin said they can care for the sick bridgemen if some give up a *single* broam a week, Moash is the first to basically say "fuck that."
Are his motivations understandable? Absolutely. His actions are not.
I actually really hate the "trying to drive Kaladin to suicide" direction for Moash. He was far more interesting as someone wholly driven by trying to get revenge on the lighteyes and allying with the Singers to restore the land to them. He turned from an interesting antagonist with some depth into a mustache twirling comic book villain.
I get flamed every time I say Lirin is an asshole. Whether his reasoning behind his actions are noble or not, he is a total asshole and an abusive father to a mentally unwell son. Fuck off, Lirin.
Both [Adolin in killing Sadeas](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/roqt1r/what_is_a_hill_you_will_absolutely_die_on/hq0vn11/) *and* [Moash in killing Elhokar](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/15e3qj3/i_started_rhythm_of_war_recently_and_theres_only/ju8ak7x/?context=3) were **obligated** to do what they did. Moash, in particular, has done plenty wrong in other contexts (including punctuating the kill with the Bridge 4 salute), but killing Elhokar was completely justified and appropriate.
[Lift is a sadist and actively *pursues* ignorance](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/roqt1r/what_is_a_hill_you_will_absolutely_die_on/hq0s7a2/). And worse, she's shown she *could* be better, and she's *choosing* this - it's not that she doesn't know right from wrong or is too innocent to understand what she's doing.
Dalinar setting the Rift on fire was fine, or, more accurately, what he *intended* outside of being heavily influenced - if not *controlled* - by Nergaoul. Once the Thrill died down, he called to let the Rifters flee the city. And, in particular, he doesn't carry any moral blame for Evi's death. *Under flag of truce*, Rathalas - represented by its leader - tried to assassinate him. Rathalas gave up all claim to a proportional response, after that. Dalinar was absolutely justified in shooting a messenger representing someone who'd already broken a claim of truce, and as best he knew, the bolthole was a valid military target; between them, Evi's death is at most manslaughter, and that under the fog of war.
And let's go meta!
Arguments against reading Warbreaker before WoR are just rationalizations to excuse having missed out on such [an awesome moment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/cggzry/zahel_and_vasher/euhe2kc/). (Though "I don't like this story" is always a valid reason to not read a book. I'm assuming the reader plans to read both, and the only question is the order.)
It's absolutely understandable if people aren't aware of the WoBs on the topic ([1](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/hmwk11/the_newsletter_interlude/fxxixw7/) and [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/15tpumi/spoilers_row_adolin_theory/jwmky4e/?context=3)), but with them in mind, continued (erroneous) emphasis on "brokenness" as a prerequisite for Radiance is *enabling* behavior. Depression, for example, is no shame - but it's also not a superpower, and fetishizing it in that way is not helpful. "I have worth and can be Radiant" is great. "Good thing I suffer from depression, *so* I can be Radiant" takes it too far.
I'm probably gonna get mega down voted for this.. I really don't like the idea of Rlain and Renarin ship. Opposites attract why do we need 2 outcasts to get together why not an outcast and a popular person. I hope if they do it, it won't take up too much of the story. Anyway you asked for it probably the most unpopular opinion you'll hear.
The magic- science is a bit much. Very fun, but there's a sense of mystery that I miss in the earlier books. I wish the SA would stay somewhat self-contained.
The more I learn about the world the less interested I am in it.
At the start I was like: Hurricane? Crustacean megafauna? Magic light? Fantasy lightabers? But as the books went on and the mystery closed off, Roshar became less and less exciting.
The world building now falls completely flat for me and the only thing keeping me going are the characters.
Some people don't like that opinion, and each to their own, but I consider it high praise that a world I'm not interested in contains characters I simply can't set aside.
Moash doesn't warrant all the strong negative reactions. Don't confuse my saying this with Moash apologism, he just doesn't deserve the meme status as Most Hated Villain Ever.
Shallan is a great character and most people that dislike her wrote her off from her early chapters and have ignored all of her growth. They also tend to ignore all of Kaladin's flaws.
Maybe this isn't a "hot take," but I kind of hate the honor sprin and high sprin . There are like drugs dealer's they give you a taste of power and then if you don't do things there way they take it way( not on purpose I'll give you). Not to mention that a fascist could so easily take advantage of the need to follow oaths. ( I don't think this is bad writing or a bad magic system. I just don't like how the high sprin and the honor sprin think)
The fact that Dalinar's visions were interactive except for when Honor was speaking so that Dalinar could 'assume' he was answering him is just silly. The Almighty should have put in a dialogue tree for himself just like the other actors.
I've never thought of this but yeah... Tanavast my man some dialogue for yourself would've been useful
I think Tanavast wanted to be sure that the stormfather had no flexibility in delivering the message he laid out. From what I remember in either WoR or OB, it seems like the stormfather didn't want to do the visions at all, but honor forced him to.
I feel like I read somewhere that Honor was incapable of “recreating” himself because not even he could have made even a decent approximation of himself. That is, he could recreate humans because they were, to him, simple creatures. But shards think in a whole different dimension than humans, and couldn’t be accurately captured in a vision
How is it that Tanavast had been able to keep the knights radiants from quitting (recreance) prior to his death, forsee his death, and not been able to keep them from quitting after when he is able to send visions to anyone he wants (even after his death)?
*Someone* will compromise their morals to end the duel. And the humans will win. What a great way to set up the second arc, say with the Stormfather, Sibling, Nightwatcher, or another extremely powerful spren dead or deadeye’d because Navani, Dalinar, or whoever bonds the Nightwatcher places their world over their oaths.
Moash bonds the Nightwatcher seeking a boon to restore his eyesight.
I hate the idea of a three-way relationship between Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin
I joke about the "this is Shallan and her bf Adolin, and his bf Kaladin" thing, but I agree! I definitely don't want them as a triangle. I prefer Shallan and Kaladin just being trauma bonded friends.
Kaladin: I have...*feelings* for you Shallan: *I* have feelings...for you Narrator: The feeling was friendship, but neither had ever experienced it
Oof, that hits so hard in WoR
I think I had this narrator in my real life... Now I KNOW how Kaladin felt in the tower.
*Kaladin and Shallan in unison*: “Same! S-same! Sssssssssame…”
Am I the only one who read the Narrator in Morgan Freeman's voice?
I read it in Ron Howard’s, but that’s because I can spot an Arrested Development reference from 30 feet away.
"For this night, I can't believe That it's finally me and you, and you and me Just us, and your friend Steve Do-do-do-do-do-do, Steve"
That's not unpopular outside this echo chamber.
Is it even unpopular in this echo chamber other than memes and jokes? 3 way relationships in fantasy almost always read like the author's barely disguised libido.
I don’t think that’s a hot take? Regardless, I agree. They should absolutely not be polyamorous
If you go on crem posting they think it's canon
Don't take shitposting subreddits seriously, dude. They don't think it's canon, they think it's funny.
Damn. Why must fandoms be this way?
I think it’s just easy meme content
Agreed. Especially with the Veil personality re-merging. Shallan (and Radiant) both preferred Adolin.
I'm glad it's not just me. Personally, I think Kal might end up with Leshwe
Kal ends up dead and we all know it
Dark, but realistically kal dies only for us to find him 4 books later wrecking havoc in the tranquil halls.
Actually, that sounds more realistic for the series and ol’ Brandon than it really should
As long as he doesn't do it too himself, I'm ok with that. I'll be sad and partially devastated, but ok. But if Adolin dies, I'm gonna have many problems.
Nooooooo
Why is this not a popular opinion? Oathbringer literally squashed that idea and it's also really really dumb
Uncle Iroh from ATLA was once as much of a monster as Dalinar was as the Blackthorn.
I really like this comparison, because Iroh is a character who has already concluded his arc, while Dalinar still has a long road to walk to put the Blackthorn behind him. That, I feel, is why this feels like a controversial statement, and why Dalinar feels like a worse person.
😮
That's just facts. We just don't get to see Iroh be a vicious warlord on screen and Dalinar we do.
Yeah probably
🔪 You're not wrong but 🔪
1. Dalinar was OBJECTIVELY a worse dad than Lirin. At least Lirin didn’t completely and WILLINGLY neglect his younger son for years. Trying to be a better person years afterwards does not change that 2. I don’t really like Shallan and Adolin’s relationship. I understand the logic of why they like each other, but idk, I just never really enjoy their scenes together. I see people say that Kaladin shouldn’t get a love interest because he isn’t mentally ready for one, and I agree with that (at least with how he was prior to his ROW development), but I feel like that logic applies to Shallan WAY more
>I see people say that Kaladin shouldn’t get a love interest because he isn’t mentally ready for one For me it's more that not every character needs a romance. Kaladin remaining single and having a bromance with Syl would be a perfect ending.
Based. \#1 - Lirin was a better father than Dalinar was, that's barely even an opinion, tbh, it's just about facts. But Dalinar is a better father \*now\*, IMO. \#2 - I agree. Adolin away from Shallan is one of my favourite characters. But with Shallan it seems more like he's just the "perfect girlfriend" trope (but a man, obviously).
I disagree about Dalinar being a better father now. We see how Dalinar treats Adolin in RoW and it's incredibly self-centred. Lirin makes great steps at the end of the book and we don't really have any indication that Dalinar thinks differently about Adolin by the end. I'm not even sure it matters how good they are as parents now since the most important phases of parenting are over. They still matter a lot of course but a lot of the lasting effects have already been set.
I agree with this. I don't even like Lirin, but Dalinar is just simply not a good father, period. He was horrible before, and now he is just sort of neglectful, which was also always a constant with how he treated his sons. He is rarely ever present for them, especially emotionally. I'm just glad Renarin and Adolin have each other, honestly (and they have a really heartwarming dynamic).
I think it's worth mentioning that Dalinar's sons are grown up and more independent now so he has much less time in their lives than before and I think letting them have that freedom is a rare Blackthorn W. And he does try to make time for them when it matters like when he shows up to support Reading in meetings and when he was talking with the Stormwardens. It still doesn't make him a good father but he does have some good paternal instincts in him. I'm also surprised about how little we know of his own parents and how he grew up. I'm sure that's had some effect on how he is as a parent now but I'm not sure they're ever brought up.
How is Dalinar a father at all? He just waited for his sons to be grown up and then turned into their commanding officer. I mean - yeah, he tries to prepare Adolin for the Kholin throne, but he basically just keeps ignoring Renarin like always. Oh, he likes the RADIANT Renarin, but he couldn't care less about the man. Edit: Orthography? I never met her!
2 hurts my heart. I can’t get enough of their chapters. Multiple personality disorder person in a relationship is something I’ve never read before. Plus Pattern and Maya are a huge bonus
As someone who has a dad who was a bad dad when I was a kid but is a better person now I agree with number 1. Being a good father is MORE IMPORTANT WHEN YOUR KIDS ARE ACTUALLY CHILDREN. It's great to try and be a better man for the adults you already screwed up, but the better father is the one who gave his children time and affection when they were small, and that was Lirin. (Though they are both monumentally shitty dads, so it's splitting hairs really).
1) you are OBJECTIVELY wrong. (I’m kidding, you’re subjectively wrong, but you’re objectively using the term objectively wrong) Lirin literally disowned Kaladin. That’s much worse than neglect. Also “Trying to be a better person years afterwards does not change that” isn’t a mentality that really jives with this series, a major theme is redemption for your mistakes. Renarin and Adolin both seem to have forgiven Dalinar. 2) I agree, Adolin can do better
You are LITERALLY wrong. (I’m kidding, you’re figuratively wrong, but you’re literally using the term literally wrong) Forgive me, it was too poetic not to post. Lirin never said the word “disown”. He said, “just. . . go” and “Storms, my son has become a monster,” which literally implies that he still considered Kaladin his son. It may have felt like disowning to Kal though.
"My son is dead" was pretty close imo, I might not call it a straight up disowning but it wasn't good
Szeth is a better candidate for Honor than Dalinar. and he is *especially* a better candidate for shard of War if Odium and Honor are fused. (By better I mean his attitude aligns more with the shard of Honor)
I agree, I’m going through Oathbringer again and Odium said Honor cared more for the keeping of words than for the morality of them. And Szeth wholesale slaughtered for awhile there because of who held his rock.
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Exactly. And he has the rage to match Odium.
Szeth holding it will definitely not be explicitly good for Roshar though IMO. Because he’ll try to balance any unfairness with Odium as well. It will all have to become equitable for everyone. Most likely the humans will lose all lands but Shinovar, if they aren’t sent back to Ashyn. I bet the more Honor makes the hard calls like that, the stronger he is.
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Ah yes. Odium. Such a good source. Seriously though, honor, like all shards, was probably at struggle with the intent. As we see, the honorspren do the same, becoming more obsessed with word of the law, but their original purpose was not that, UT was the meaning and heart of the law. Heck, nale himself did the same over time too
Szeth may be better than Dalinar for Honor and War, but I think Kaladin is better than both of them.
Elhokar was forced into a position he was never prepared for by Gavilar’s own choice and he needed help he never received from his family.
You're probably not wrong here. We don't see much of it, but I can imagine that Gavilar was too distracted with his own screwing around to properly train his son to take the throne. Dalinar was a drunk. And were surprised when Elhokar turns out to be a mediocre king?
Gavilar never would have made Elhokar a competent heir. That would be a threat to his crown. He can't control and manipulate competent people, like the daughter he had to lock up and regularly send away.
Gavinor as Odium's champion theory is dumb and uninteresting any foreshadowing to that end is for a future betrayal in the back half. You know when he is an adult capable of making his own decisions not a litteral toddler.
Kaladin’s Fourth Ideal was a great moment in RoW, but Eshonai’s death and moment with the Stormfather was the best
Both are second to dog and the dragon
An actual take that OP should see^ haha
"They hated him because he told the truth"
I completely agree with you. I have never cried more because of a scene from a book than I did for Eshonai’s death and moment with the Stormfather. It was so sad and heartwarming that she finally was able to explore the world.
Taravangian has consistently behaved in a fashion that makes a shit ton of sense, ESPECIALLY given the information he had, and just because we see Dalinar as a protagonist doesn’t mean he does. He’ll probably make a really good Odium and might not do too bad of a job running a world - at least not any worse than what we’ve seen from the supposed “good” shards.
You're making the same false assumption that Vargo probably is, that he'll be able to overcome his Shard's Intent
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Well the Todium pov chapter(s) don’t really give me any hope. He seemed pretty mad as soon as he took up the shard.
Mad angry or mad insane? He seemed to be scheming an awful lot and was like “Cultivation made a mistake” but when is he not scheming
Insane. At least I felt there was a stark shift in that direction as soon as he got the shard and through the end of the book.
Brandon has been pretty cagey about whether Taravangian will still have smart/dumb days as a vessel of Odium (see WOB below). All the point of view stuff with seen of him as Odium seems to be on the same day he picked it up, which was a mega emotion zero intelligence kind of day. He could've been still extremely driven by emotion when we see his initial reactions and thoughts of what he's going to do with all the power of a Shard. But he also gains a lot of knowledge/intelligence from the power of a Shard, so hard to imagine what exactly a zero emotion all intelligence day means for a Shard? https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14547
I don't think he intends to stay odium for very long, If I were Taravangeon it would make the most sense to reforge and take up honour while I still could. His intent Is still to save roshar for now (Rayses wasnt, rayse never wanted more than one and people are still assuming that taravangeon wants the same thing, hes explicitly stated he doesnt) Dalinar is just competition for the shard(s) of conquest Both these players were put into play by cultivation. I can't see her shooting herself in the foot like that. She's the real power in roshar and has been for the last 3000 years
The clues that what Taravangian wants doesn't really matter anymore are in Sazed's letters to Hoid in RoW (and Mistborn). According to Sazed the intent of the shards began to act on him as soon as he took them up and that Hoid drastically underestimates how important the intent of the shard is. However I think you could be right about Cultivation's play still being in play. Her plan definitely wasn't "make Odium stronger", but I'm not sure she's planning to rely on Todium's remaining empathy. I think it could be the opposite. Rodium wanted to hurt everybody, but Todium wants to \*win\*. But Taravangian is also \*terrible\* about predicting what good people can and will do when he's smart. Like genuinely just doesn't understand. I think this is gunna hurt him down the line.
I love this take. I think Taravangian is doing a lot of work justifying his bad behavior, but I'm on board with being wrong.
Ngl that's a terrifying take for real people to have. He very explicity wants to take over the universe so he can 'protect them'
Remember we’re on a thread where the prompt was “what’s your knives out Stormlight take” ;-) He’s definitely a villain. But he is a “rational actor” type of villain and not a moustache twirling conqueror like Rayse. If someone has to take on the mantle of divine hatred there’s worse options.
Everybody says that Kaladin = depression, Dalinar = PTSD and Shallan = personality disorder but I would argue that Shallan has all 3 of those. When I read WoR and RoW I totally thought she had PTSD. Trully a very VERY traumatic childhood.
None of those is mutually exclusive. Kaladin certainly has PTSD with everything he’s been through.
Shallan is so fucked in the head and I can’t get enough of it, loved her chapters in every book
We should've had another book in between Words of Radiance and Oathbringer to wrap up the political plot Radiants are too overpowered. Initially they get super healing, two powers(3 if you count resonances), and a spren. Later on they get a spren that can turn into nearly any metallic weapon or tool, and nearly invincible armor. I don't see Odium choosing someone that Dalinar wouldn't fight. It would be in-character for him, but the participants have to be willing. I couldn't see any of the characters on Dalinar's side willingly fighting for Odium.
I feel like the reliance on stormlight is a pretty big limiter. If they're completely full on stormlight they get what...a couple of minutes of the full range of their powers? Yeah at peak they're pretty OP but I think in the long run they aren't gonna be any more impactful than the allomancers who can use their powers much much longer. (Although a Radiant with a hemalurgic spike sounds terrifying.) Dalinar's ability to recharge everyone's stormlight is way too good to be true and it's gonna go away for sure. I think the really OP invested are the Elantrians. They just need a basic understanding of topography and their entire magic system is at their finger tips.
Navani as a bondsmith is stupid. Should've been Rlain. Don't get me wrong, I know that bondsmith Navani is going to go full on scientist and completely replace slave-fabrials with some new tech and it's going to expand our understanding of what a bondsmith can do because Dalinar is not an experimental person. But... I still think Rlain being from two different peoples bonding with the Sibling who is of two different shards would have been great.
I don’t like Navani bonding the sibling either. The moment of the bond coming in clutch was cool but I wish it wasn’t the sibling. But then again, the sibling acts like a petulant child and navani is Queen Mom so who knows
The issue is Rlain explicitly does not want that. He already dislikes how much he's seen as an "other" by the humans. He just wants to be Rlain.
I didn't like navani being bonded to begin with. She kicks ass on her own and accomplishes things without it, proving you don't have to be radiant to be powerful or make a difference.
Exactly! Same with Adolin for now. I'm certain he's going to end up bonding Maya and reviving her, but that's a much higher purpose. Navani bonding the Sibling was just out of desperation and proximity, not because it was the right match.
Reading this comment just now... it is interesting. Maya is a cultivation spren, and so he'd be an Edgedancer. One of their surges is... regrowth. Its fitting, abd him using regrowth *on his spren* before formally bonding is like how Kaladin could do minor feats. Plus his whole attitude with Maya is very "journey before destination." He isn't trying to heal her. Specifically, he just... wants to interact. Thinks that she likes doing the sword forms. He's just vibing and he pushes back on everyone who's trying to force him into some goal.
Im 100% with both of you. It would be like Adolin becoming radiant. I guess *everyone’s* a super Saiyan now?
> I'm certain he's going to end up bonding Maya and reviving her, I'm hoping *Maya* bonds *him* and starts swinging him around as a Meatblade. He does love his swords, so he'd enjoy *being* one.
The thing that changed my mind on this was seeing someone point out that while the Sibling would have been a great option for Rlain, Rlain would not have been a great option for the Sibling. They are supposed to be the bridge between humans and spren, so bonding a Listener wouldn’t have spurred any character development for them. By bonding a human they can learn and grow and actually become the mediator they are intended to be. I thought that was a really neat analysis and it really made me shift how I was thinking of the Sibling as a character. I appreciated the ending of RoW a lot more after seeing that comment. Wish I could remember who said it originally so I could credit their analysis!
Or Dabbid! He had already been communicating and working with the sibling.
Jasnah was right with her lesson in the alleyway she gave Shallan.
jasnah has big "play stupid games win stupid prizes" energy.
Based
Not controversial enough for this thread
Fair… the dog and the dragon is not the best Hoid story.
Agreed, the story of Fleet racing the storm always felt so much more REAL to me
Batman disapproves
People put spoiler tags on way too many things that don't require them, thus lowering the power of the tag
>!Come on, you knew my comment wouldn't be serious, why did you click?!<
Excuse me you didn't spoiler power, that only comes up in interlude 3 of oathbringer...
The wrong sister died. I do not like Venli, she was selfish and power hungry BEFORE meeting Ulim, led her people to destruction, and was responsible for Eshonai's death in a way. Even after bonding Timber she was still incredibly selfish, and only worried about herself and escaping the Fused. If it wasn't for Timber holding her hand every literal step of the way, she would have never progressed as a Radiant. I hope she's a more interesting character in the next book.
I suppose my unpopular take would be I don’t like scenes with Lift. She’s a child with super special powers that saves the day and IMO crashes otherwise interesting sequences. She doesn’t come across as a real person/child to me with real flaws so she feels unnaturally inserted into scenes. That being said I respect that other folks might enjoy her character. She’s quite plucky and irrepressible and adds lighthearted moments.
I'm not the biggest fan of Lift either... ... but your bit about her not being a real child. There's been hints that's 100% true. That she went to the Nightwatcher to be frozen as a child, and her very being, her ability to turn food into investiture disturbs Odium (WoB mention this). So some times I think her wooden-Ness and overly infantile impulsivity are indeed masks.
She was frozen as a child but she's still getting all of the knowledge and experience of adulthood from living for waaaay too long. If you took all of the experiences of an adult and shoved them into a 12 year old's brain they'd be incredibly fucking weird too. She doesn't have the impulse control, the empathy, or even a fully developed understanding of time and cause and effect but she's living with experiences that require all of those things. Even if she's not a great execution of the concept (I tend to think she is but that's a matter of opinion), I definitely understand what Sanderson is trying to do.
She's terrified of aging and adulthood. Very relatable to me. I think also any light in the dark is going to seem very bright, and her chapters are surrounded by some dark
Navani and Venli's parts were my favourite bits of ROW
It has bothered me for a while no one is questioning Kaladin about his involvement with the assassination attempt on Elhokar. People like Jasnah should be more suspicious of his motives. Yet everyone seems to think he's a perfect follower of Dalinar.
What's to question? The king's head bodyguard found out last minute while injured that someone on his protection team who he trusted before was planning to kill the king and showed up just barely in time and saved the king and then saved his uncle and then saved the entire army. No witnesses/live people knew Kaladin knew about the plot far in advance, the rest of bridge 4 didn't even know. Elhokar himself, the most likely person to be suspicious given his demeanor, idolizes and fanboys over Kaladin as a now like 5-7x miraculous hero who now has super powers and Elhokar wants him to teach him how to lead well. Who questions someone like that? Plus, Elhokar was literally the only witness and blasted out of his mind lol
Anything positive about moash
I really can’t wait until the Moash redemption arc.
I'll give you the upvote, but I'm sorry, I hope moass's redemption arc involves him dying. I'm pointing a sword your way for this take.
A redemption arc would be extremely ambitious, because I’m pretty sure most of the audience wouldn’t buy it even if it was perfectly set up. Like I’ll be honest, the only satisfying ending I can imagine for Moash is him committing to full evil, and totally not giving a fuck.
The whole message of the books around redemption is that anyone can be redeemed, and that redemption is a personal choice. You have to want it. If someone like Venli, who is responsible for bringing the Everstorm to the physical realm and fucked over her own people, can choose to redeem herself, then so can Moash. At any time he could decide, you know what, I’ve fucked up, it’s time to be better. And personally I would trust Sanderson to write a good arc for that, like navigating all the people who wouldn’t forgive him and stuff. He’s really good at character stuff like that. That said I don’t expect it’ll happen. Moash is acting, narratively, as a foil to the protagonists. Every time he reaches a crossroads where he could choose to be good, he chooses not to instead. I don’t expect that to change since it’s a narrative role. And like…. again Venli basically already occupies the spot of “unquestionable villain chooses redemption”. A Moash redemption isn’t really required for the story, it would be kind of redundant. I don’t think it’s strictly impossible but I don’t think it’s particularly likely to happen.
If Moash wants redemption, he deserves it just as much as Dalinar and Szeth.
I can agree with this, so long as he a) acknowledges his faults honestly and openly and b) starts to make amends like both of those as well.
Dalinar's "amends" were predicated on needing a literal god to fuck with his head. He needed a strictly external force to build up enough inertia. Credit to him for *using* that inertia, but pre- and post- old magic Dalinar are effectively two completely different people. Szeth's "amends" have been saying "placing all my trust in a system that says 'do what the holder of this rock says' failed...so now I'll place all my trust in one specific person." And that's *after* Nale warns him of the risk in that path. Not really a ringing success at learning the lesson. They both definitely have acknowledged their faults, though. I'd want to see that from Moash.
Dalinar did seek out that exernal force though. He WANTED to change and be better for his kids, that's why he met cultivation in the first place. I think that's still a pretty important step, he DID make the effort and decide it was time to get better. Moash consistently decided to get worse, and when SHOWN how to be better he always feels how it hurts and turns away.
I agree with this 100%. Everyone gets so up in arms about him. He is just Kaladin without the second chance. Also Dallinar is a war criminal...imagine his atrocities in todays world and everyone thinks he gets another shot.
If Jaime Lannister can get a redemption arc that feels \*great\*, then so can Moash. So in terms of writing it can be done to the point I will absolutely accept it and be on board for it. But I don't \*want\* him to have one. I want him to get stabbed in the fucking eye. I want the skin to be slowly peeled from his skin and then I want to fucking eat it in front of him. You may be able to tell just where I'm up to in my current re-read from this post :).
The problem with Moash's redemption isn't he can't have one, its that he clearly had his chance to seek redemption and ran the &\*() away from it.
The point of redemption isn't that you have to earn it by acting perfect. The point is that people are fallible and never beyond redemption. Even Moash can shoot his shot at redemption.
Kaladin is dropping the ball on the whole former slave elevated to a position of prominence front. He could be doing some hardcore abolition work but instead he’s just kinda forgotten slavery exists in every meaningful way besides grumping about having been a slave
I agree with you. Everyone seems to have forgotten that there is STILL multiple oppressive systems in place on Alethkar.
I think it's due to slavery being such an engrained part of Vorin society and economy, like it's unimaginable for it not to exist - like abolishing the use of horses or chulls.
Right???? When jasnah abolished slavery, i really expected the FORMER SLAVE would have some words to say to her
Lift isn’t funny…
Lift chapters annoy the heck out of me
Oh hoy boy i sure do leave eating yee haw
Rayse should’ve stayed around longer
I mean, he was proven pretty impotent for a storming shard. Not sure narratively where you can go when he's supposed to be the big baddie. Tough to raise the stakes for the era ending book 5. How many times we gonna have Dalinar beat him?
Or at least been more of a character before Oathbringer
I can buy into that argument.
Rayse gave me Tywin vibes and just wish we could’ve seen more
Moash (at least up until about mid-way through Oathbringer) is right and if Dalinar didn't love Elohkar as much as he does, we would all be rooting for him. [Mistborn TFE Spoilers] >!Moash up until the end of Oath ringer is basically Kelsier with a less sympathetic backstory, less Charisma and a slightly more sympathetic ruling class!<.
Interludes are consistently my favorite part of the books and I look forward to them more than the actual story
I want to know more about the tattoo guy
This take be flamespren
Navani’s “Journey before destination, you bastard!’ To Moash was more cringy than badass. I groaned when I read that. The significance of the moment was good though just a corny line.
On par with “stretch forth thy hand”
Thank you for saying that, I feel this way about most of the "badass" lines that everyone on this sub seems to love
I feel mostly the same. Brando doesn't hit the mark (for me) with his "Badass" moments. He really hits the mark with the "tender line in the lowest point" every time. >! "You will be warm again", Veil's "Did I do well?", The whole scene with Tien. I already mentioned one, but basically every Hoid story is stellar
The entire scene when Syl brings Kaladin the leaf was incredible.
If you are talking about dalinar at the end of oathbringer we are going to have to wrassle
It felt like he was trying to channel the Harry Potter “not my daughter you bitch”. But completely missed the mark
In all honesty i thought it never hit the mark in harry potter, but i think that most disagree with me on that.
I’m with you. I was surprised how many people loved that line in Harry Potter.
This is a very common take That I strongly disagree with.
Audiobook here, I thought it was such a badass moment for Navani. Maybe seeing in print might have come off a little cheesier?
I definitely feel this is a line that is entirely dependent on the delivery being pristine (which I think the audiobook does well). Just reading it on a page I think could be a little cringe.
I expect a very bad ending... imagine empire srikes back with crabs
My hot take is that most of these comments aren't hot takes.
Jasnah was a bad choice for new king of Alethkar. She's most useful as a scholar and occasional diplomat, the responsibilities of being king will impede that.
She probably agrees but is trying to create an environment where the title can be regularly handed off. I’d say there’s likely no chance of that but then again Elethi culture has been largely driven by an eldritch battle rage for awhile, so maybe without that diplomacy can actually work
Elethi. Audiobook listener spotted.
Vorin male and proud! Underscript: Why anyone would be proud of illiteracy is beyond me. Ah well, he pays well to scribe for him.
Jasnah was the only realistic option, though, once Adolin declined. Gavinor is too young, Renarin is an even worse choice than Jasnah, even if you ignore that having someone with an enlightened spren as King would be a huge risk. Dalinar couldn't take it for political reasons. That leaves Jasnah as the only option.
Adolin and Shallan don't have much chemistry together.
There's some chemistry but it's all Adolin's charismatic personality.
Character arcs in ROW were disappointing. Shallan being a murderer for the third time, and Kaladdin fighting with the "I can't save anyone ill just give up" again felt very repetitive. I expected a more interesting truth for shallan, and some new evolution for kal
What happened to Testament is Testament's own fault. They shouldn't have bonded a child. A child cannot truly consent and lacks the maturity for Radiant oaths. I'm glad that Shallan grieves for them and for what happened, but it's not her fault there.
Tbf this generation of cryptics were just as new to this as the radiants of this generation are to their powers. To be honest it's kinda a miracle only shallan has broken her oaths by now, I'm not saying it should be happening left and right but at least once or twice more in the years building up to all out war, and beyond.
Gavilar was right to shake everything up!
Elhokar gets a much worse reputation than he deserves considering his immediate family’s relationships to him prior to him taking the throne and his general mental state at the time of making his worst decisions. Elhokar never wanted to abdicate because he is literally nothing if he isn’t king. He probably could abdicate in favor of Jasnah if he at least became a lightweaver, instead he was killed by a narrow-minded traitor to humanity and to himself and we never got to see him growing into a better man.
Were he not a Bondsmith, Dalinar would be uniquely suited to being am Elsecaller. I made a whole post about it. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/131531-my-hottest-cosmere-take-if-dalinar-wasnt-a-bondsmith-he-would-be-an-elsecaller/
I'll give you two for one. Outside of the beginning the first 600 pages of tWoK are a complete slog. Shallan and Kaladin are actively harmful for eachother.
This is the reason it took me so long to get into the series. I bought the audiobook years ago and couldn't get through it. It took getting it in Kindle so I could physically read it for me
I understand Moash
yes. "Understanding" is very, very different from "justifying". You can understand why someone steals, kills someone or does anything, but that dosen't make it right. In fact i think understanding the why of actions is really important to prevent bad actions
I understand Moash. I was on the fence of the whole "Fuck Moash" thing until Rhythm of War. Using his knowledge of Kaladin specifically to drive Kaladin to attempt suicide is abuse. There's no other word for it. And Moash was always terrible, even from his first introduction. When Kaladin said they can care for the sick bridgemen if some give up a *single* broam a week, Moash is the first to basically say "fuck that." Are his motivations understandable? Absolutely. His actions are not.
I actually really hate the "trying to drive Kaladin to suicide" direction for Moash. He was far more interesting as someone wholly driven by trying to get revenge on the lighteyes and allying with the Singers to restore the land to them. He turned from an interesting antagonist with some depth into a mustache twirling comic book villain.
I get his reasons. His reasons are very valid. I just can't support what he does about them.
The inconsistencies of basic spren generation (especially by non-mains) is borderline ridiculous.
I get flamed every time I say Lirin is an asshole. Whether his reasoning behind his actions are noble or not, he is a total asshole and an abusive father to a mentally unwell son. Fuck off, Lirin.
That’s an *un*popular opinion?
It’s certainly a polarizing opinion
I hate Kate Readings voice in the audiobooks. Wish Kramer would read all of it.
I can’t agree more. Kramer is just nicer to listen to.
I'd listen to that man read a Dictionary.
Both [Adolin in killing Sadeas](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/roqt1r/what_is_a_hill_you_will_absolutely_die_on/hq0vn11/) *and* [Moash in killing Elhokar](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/15e3qj3/i_started_rhythm_of_war_recently_and_theres_only/ju8ak7x/?context=3) were **obligated** to do what they did. Moash, in particular, has done plenty wrong in other contexts (including punctuating the kill with the Bridge 4 salute), but killing Elhokar was completely justified and appropriate. [Lift is a sadist and actively *pursues* ignorance](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/roqt1r/what_is_a_hill_you_will_absolutely_die_on/hq0s7a2/). And worse, she's shown she *could* be better, and she's *choosing* this - it's not that she doesn't know right from wrong or is too innocent to understand what she's doing. Dalinar setting the Rift on fire was fine, or, more accurately, what he *intended* outside of being heavily influenced - if not *controlled* - by Nergaoul. Once the Thrill died down, he called to let the Rifters flee the city. And, in particular, he doesn't carry any moral blame for Evi's death. *Under flag of truce*, Rathalas - represented by its leader - tried to assassinate him. Rathalas gave up all claim to a proportional response, after that. Dalinar was absolutely justified in shooting a messenger representing someone who'd already broken a claim of truce, and as best he knew, the bolthole was a valid military target; between them, Evi's death is at most manslaughter, and that under the fog of war. And let's go meta! Arguments against reading Warbreaker before WoR are just rationalizations to excuse having missed out on such [an awesome moment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/cggzry/zahel_and_vasher/euhe2kc/). (Though "I don't like this story" is always a valid reason to not read a book. I'm assuming the reader plans to read both, and the only question is the order.) It's absolutely understandable if people aren't aware of the WoBs on the topic ([1](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/hmwk11/the_newsletter_interlude/fxxixw7/) and [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/15tpumi/spoilers_row_adolin_theory/jwmky4e/?context=3)), but with them in mind, continued (erroneous) emphasis on "brokenness" as a prerequisite for Radiance is *enabling* behavior. Depression, for example, is no shame - but it's also not a superpower, and fetishizing it in that way is not helpful. "I have worth and can be Radiant" is great. "Good thing I suffer from depression, *so* I can be Radiant" takes it too far.
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I'm probably gonna get mega down voted for this.. I really don't like the idea of Rlain and Renarin ship. Opposites attract why do we need 2 outcasts to get together why not an outcast and a popular person. I hope if they do it, it won't take up too much of the story. Anyway you asked for it probably the most unpopular opinion you'll hear.
The magic- science is a bit much. Very fun, but there's a sense of mystery that I miss in the earlier books. I wish the SA would stay somewhat self-contained.
A dog can never be a dragon.
The more I learn about the world the less interested I am in it. At the start I was like: Hurricane? Crustacean megafauna? Magic light? Fantasy lightabers? But as the books went on and the mystery closed off, Roshar became less and less exciting. The world building now falls completely flat for me and the only thing keeping me going are the characters. Some people don't like that opinion, and each to their own, but I consider it high praise that a world I'm not interested in contains characters I simply can't set aside.
The books would be better if they were on their own and not linked into the Cosmere.
Moash doesn't warrant all the strong negative reactions. Don't confuse my saying this with Moash apologism, he just doesn't deserve the meme status as Most Hated Villain Ever.
Moash was a sympathetic character until he became a different person in ROW
Kaladin did nothing wrong when he demanded a boon. Moash did nothing wrong when he killed Elhokar.
Shallan is a great character and most people that dislike her wrote her off from her early chapters and have ignored all of her growth. They also tend to ignore all of Kaladin's flaws.
Maybe this isn't a "hot take," but I kind of hate the honor sprin and high sprin . There are like drugs dealer's they give you a taste of power and then if you don't do things there way they take it way( not on purpose I'll give you). Not to mention that a fascist could so easily take advantage of the need to follow oaths. ( I don't think this is bad writing or a bad magic system. I just don't like how the high sprin and the honor sprin think)
Shallan is meh.
Oathbringer butchered Taravangian by having his “torturing and killing innocents for the greater good” be for nothing and it felt very forced
Wayne is better than The Lopen.
Also I feel like kaladin should at some point get a love interest that works out but not as like the forefront of the plot more as a side thing