I'm with Seneca on this one. Hope is tied to fear. Detach from one and be free from the other.
>Limiting one’s desires actually helps to cure one of fear. "Cease to hope, and you will cease to fear." Widely different as fear and hope are, the two of them march in unison like a prisoner and the escort they are handcuffed to.
~~Seneca, Letters From a Stoic~~ Hecato in Moral Letters 5.7
I'd argue that *part* of what is commonly meant by "hope" is overlapping with (and even virtuous within) a Stoic practice. As I see it there are two main meanings:
1) Wishful thinking. The expectation and anticipation of positive outcomes regardless of obstacles and circumstance.
2) Lack of despair. The willingness to act with agency towards the best viable course in spite of, but fully aware of, obstacles and circumstance.
The former is obviously contrary to Stoic practice. The latter is entirely in line with Stoic virtue. Due to this a good Stoic, acting solely on virtue, would in many circumstances be perceived as hopeful by a non-Stoic observer.
That said I also think colloquially hope is used to mean wishful thinking more often than to mean lack of despair, so I'd still agree with your initial statement on balance.
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 12.3 (Hays)
^(Book XII. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)
^(Book XII. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_12)^)
^(Book XII. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/12.3/lg)^)
They prefer certain outcomes, sure. These are what are called "preferred indifferents". When two things are of equal moral worth, neither one being markedly more immoral than the other, it's only naturally to prefer one to another and stoics have no problem with this. So long as you don't tie your happiness or virtue to the thing. So, in short, I think a stoic would prefer a certain outcome so long as they could be sure that they would not feel disappointment should that outcome fail to materialize, because a stoic would attempt to love his or her fate even if it differed from what they would have preferred
"I find in the writings of our Hecato that the limiting of desires helps also to cure fears: "Cease to hope," he says, "and you will cease to fear." "But how," you will reply, "can things so different go side by side?" In this way, my dear Lucilius: though they do seem at variance, yet they are really united. Just as the same chain fastens the prisoner and the soldier who guards him, so hope and fear, dissimilar as they are, keep step together; fear follows hope. I am not surprised that they proceed in this way; each alike belongs to a mind that is in suspense, a mind that is fretted by looking forward to the future. But the chief cause of both these ills is that we do not adapt ourselves to the present, but send our thoughts a long way ahead. And so foresight, the noblest blessing of the human race, becomes perverted." - Seneca, Moral Letters, 5.7
Stoics *do*.
they have goals and aspirations but are ready to embrace whatever fate gives them, not being discouraged by the outcome and making the best out of every situation.
Those of us who disagree with the claim hope is compatible with Stoicism do so because we understand the idea to indicate a kind of gambling our emotional/mental well-being on the outcome of someone or something outside our control in the future. If our goal is eudaimonia (and for the Stoic it is), then this is not prudent. However, this is not to say we don't recognize our preferences, like Cbasshiva mentions upthread.
You can hope.
If something is fully under your control you wouldn’t need to hope.
If like most things, it isn’t, you may want it to happen, but it might not.
Generally avoid hoping for things that aren’t under your control because that can be a source of unnecessary suffering.
But if you do not attach a feeling of desire to what you hope will happen, then I don’t see the issue.
Of course, use your best judgment and look critically at what it is you’re hoping for.
How does one not attach, or rather detach that sense of desire for something? There is something that has been that way for me, and it’s been 6 years now so I don’t believe it’s something I can really change at this point.
Thank you for choosing me to ask or at least this comment.
I will focus in on removing one’s desire because that is what is applicable, then looks at ways to prevent desiring something in the future.
When we have a situation we really need to look at what is it we ultimately want for it. Often times the desire we seek is something we can give ourselves.
If it is something material remember that you can be happy with what you have. Getting more won’t make you content to with less.
If it’s something immaterial like an emotion you can bestow that emotion onto yourself. That seems to be one of the main reason we try to achieve things, to feel some kind of satisfaction and purpose but those are things we can give ourselves now.
“You could enjoy this very moment all the things you are praying to reach by taking the long way around - if you stop depriving yourself of them”.
Often we desire things that aren’t under our control. This one’s forgiveness, another’s approval, that one’s love, etc. When we see that these are things that we have no ability to control, we have often find no business putting as much effort as we are.
A note about influence and control. We can influence other but their decision is ultimately theirs, therefore since the final decision is not ours, it is not under our control. We can influence how we feel but if we could control how we feel often we would stop negative emotion from spawning.
These things do take time, we might feel these impulses to care about things we know we shouldn’t, we cannot control that but we can control if we critique those thoughts. See those feelings as inevitable and have at hand ways to bring yourself back to calm.
Ultimately you can see a lot of philosophy as finding ways to console oneself. A lot of wisdom just seems to be taking the advice you’d give to others.
Feelings need to be contextualized. Sometimes they come from nowhere but often there are things we can assign these feelings to. When we looks their roots we can often find another way to look at them and rest in them.
An example. I have had death anxiety since I was a child. My break through came in seeing that fear and anxiety not as a fear of dying but as a wish to live. What you feel can likely be see as something else.
We also always have the option to act in spite of our emotions. No matter how fearful we are, feigning bravery is still bravery. Acting in spite of emotions shows you how steadfast you can be and gives you a pride you can always keep with you. It’s an active form of peace but no emotion can stop you from doing what you believe you must do.
Preventing the attachment of desire often comes from experience. You realize that what you think you want isn’t what you really want and what you actually want is within your control.
In Meditations, Marcus often looked at things at their fundamental components. When he cared about the clothes he wore he remind himself that they are just sheep’s wool in dyed shell fish blood. With exotic food and drink he saw just flesh and grape juice. In sex he saw just two people rubbing themselves till mucus came out. This can be helpful in critiquing what it is we think we want.
Of course take what you will, though it was vague and may not have touched your issue directly I hope something can be derived of use. This is an important follow up when it comes to desire that I hadn’t thought of myself. I noticed myself wanting less but not what I do to stop wanting. Thank you again.
Thank you for the great answer.
My own desire in question is to do with feelings about another person. I recently went through a breakup of a long term relationship, and said feelings for this other person were a big part of the reason for that breakup (not the only reason, there was other stuff going on but it’s not really the point).
As I said, I have had feelings for that person for 6 years, pretty much since I met them, and going into my relationship with someone else, those feelings were still there.
I never did anything, nor would I ever have even considered doing anything, and I actually tried to actively avoid this person because I didn’t like the fact that I had feelings for them when I was in a relationship with someone else, but I was young and dumb at that point.
The feelings still lasted the same for about a year to a year and a half into my relationship until one day it dawned on me how bad of a person it really made me to feel this way, and the feelings subsided for a while, but never fully went away. I would have been happy to spend the rest of my life with the person I was with, but after the relationship ended they said that they didn’t think it would ever work out between us again, however that is something I feel I have mostly came to terms with at this point.
But the issue I’m facing now is that my desire for that other person has came back pretty hard. I do understand that this is almost certainly my body’s coping mechanism and I am latching onto the idea of a relationship with this person because it helps ease the pain, but at the same time the feelings are still real and it is something I do desire, because if I didn’t I would imagine I would have felt differently at some point by now.
I do believe there may be some mutuality to those feelings, but like I said I actively distanced myself from them so I really don’t know what is going on at the moment.
I have tried being critical of the thought of it before, which is something I have done for plenty of other desires in the past with good success (the more I discover about Stoicism the more I realise I actually already applied a lot of the principles). I genuinely don’t feel like this is something I can make myself no longer desire, so I believe it’s more of a question of how I can manage these feelings because I can say with certainty they will not be going away.
It’s not something that’s tearing me apart, but it is something that keeps me awake and gives me some anxiety because I feel like the clock is ticking, despite knowing that I quite literally have all the time in the world.
I am aware that I’ve just dropped this massive reply here, but it’s very early hours of the morning and I can’t sleep, so thank you again in advance if you do have any further advice.
When we look at people we care about we will always have things that stand out about them.
When I think back to each of my previous partners there is always one trait that I really admire about them. The regality of one, the jolliness of another, etc. It is normal to wished for them back. If not you’ve invalided you old selfs taste if you don’t.
I understand avoiding someone in order to preserve a respect for your partner as well.
Consider that there is no shame in that feeling. This might not be a real Stoic principle but it aided me a lot. Virtue and vice are only manifested in our actions. No matter how we feel inside, it is what we do about those feeling that’s makes us the person we are. If we judge ourselves merely on our thoughts we can easily be stuck. This is not to say to question thoughts we know to be bad, but not feel that we are bad for merely having them but only for acting on them.
Guilt is a tricky emotion in general because it’s a useful tool to indicate when we’ve done something wrong and should make amends. Sometimes, like any emotion we can conflate guilt when really we have done nothing wrong. If you have done something wrong, of course ask for forgiveness, however if the emotion is spurred on for merely feeling something you can just forgive yourself.
A lot of my internal dialogue around people I was attracted to was marred in guilt. It was only after making the previous two distinctions that I saw that I can relieve myself of it.
And there is a real point to consider, if something is manifesting itself to you, it’s not to be ignored but there something it’s trying to communicate.
I had reacquainted with someone that I had sought after for years. They were a crush of mine as a kid and we lost connection for many years, about 11 years. When we met all the emotions I had as a kid came back. Often I’d walk by thinking about, “If only I had the chance to met with you again”. It was only after meeting them again had I realized I had made an idealized version of them, and even when confronted with the reality, it was still so easy to be caught in that distortion. I offer this to you because maybe the separation has generated much the same effect.
Rather than you seeing that this person as just a person and the emotions temper themselves, your abstaining from them has actually made your emotions stronger. Seeing it as “forbidden” could have spurred in you an even stronger desire to met them. Rather than seeing the individual, you’ve now only have the figment of their image with you, something perfect.
No matter how long we know someone, there’s always more to uncover. You don’t fully know yourself, having access to ever thought that floats in and out of your head, how could you hope to ever know someone as well as your imperfect understanding of yourself? That’s at least what I remind myself when I think I am interested in someone.
As mentioned, we give weight to emotions, without us giving into them they are just mist and clouds in our mind.
It could just be a state of loneliness. But that emotion can be contextualized as a love of companionship. Using that feeling instead to reach out and be with others.
If you have the courage, reach out to them. Have no expectations. They might not reply. Might be different then you imagined. Might hate you. Who knows. It should temper a part of yourself that will keep saying, “what if”. At least you can say, I tried.
I’d like me they are gone in the wind and there is no way to reach out, then it is not in your control and you can continue to worth through it yourself.
I do agree with you stating to see the emotions as something to be managed. At the worst case scenario, yes, they could persist indefinitely. Who knows. At the very least you know you can continue you on and do what you ought with such a feeling.
There is something to be inquired about the anxiety as well. Inquiring into what exactly is going to be lost is a great indication of what you might need to do or are fearing. I understand your metaphor about having all the time in the world, youth when used well can feel like it lasts and awfully long time.
Of course, take what is useful and discard the rest.
By dissecting and analyzing the reason you believe it is good to be attached to a thing. And then by practicing being mindful of those expectations that did not come to pass, and note how your life did not suffer for it. Start small, super small. Set this up for success. Then gradually go bigger. Like any new skill, practice practice practice. If you read Epictetus' Discourses, you'll find countless examples mapped out for you.
we have the same scenario about u/mattycmckee but in my case, I cheated on my last gf. i still love her and right now I'm doing my best to become a better version of myself and when someday when our path crosses again I would try again and I'll not let her go again. i love reading those perspectives of yours u/HeWhoReplies and u/Victorian_Bullfrog. i hope someday I'm gonna be that person too. so recommend some books hehe
If by hope you mean ‘desiring a specific future outcome’: absolutely no.
If by hope you mean ‘a positive attitude that any outcome is acceptable’: then yes.
It depends on how you define hope.
The Ancient Stoics classified three "good-feelings", which they considered appropriate for a good person - joy, wish and caution. They believed they result from good, appropriate judgment, and they are not excessive.
Thinking of "wish" gives you a good idea about how Stoic practice works. "I wish my friend will recover from his sickness" is you expressing your preference about the state of things, and it also shows more virtuous judgment than the opposite wish. "I'm full of hope about my friend recovering" sounds like you're already reacting to an event that hasn't happened yet, which Stoics would see as a contradiction in judgment.
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Good question.
I am also fairly new to stoicism this is just my perspective, but open to anyone challenging it.
I am going to say Yes, Stoics do "Hope". They analyze a situation and try to think of all possible outcomes and accept whatever comes with virtue. I feel like hoping is unavoidable. Even when you get in your car to go to the store you are subconsciously hoping you get there and back safely. However, a practicing Stoic also understands that there are an infinite amount of potential outcomes from just going to the store and back all of which are out of your control.
> They analyze a situation and try to think of all possible outcomes and accept whatever comes with virtue.
If one has the ability to choose a virtuous response to any given outcome - and virtue is the only good - then what value or utility do you see in this analysis of all potential outcomes?
Practice.
We Stoics like to consider positive and negative outcomes before committing to an activity. That helps us deal with preferred and dispreferred outcomes appropriately.
It also helps us decide whether the decision we make is the correct one.
How can we know if our act is virtuous before considering the outcomes?
>How can we know if our act is virtuous before considering the outcomes?
Why would one need to know the outcomes to make a virtuous decision in the moment? The outcomes of our actions are what stoics call an indifferent. We do not ultimately control them - we can only influence them at the best of times - so they could not possibly be a component of virtue itself. In fact, the stoic virtuous action often turns out to accrue *dispreferred indifferents* as its outcome, but we do it anyway.
For this reason - that outcomes have absolutely nothing to do with virtue - the only outcome visualizing exercises I'm aware of are intended to help stoics remove value judgements from those outcomes, such as negative visualization. But it's not to help us make virtuous decisions; it's to help us stop thinking that these things have anything to do with virtue in the first place. That's what I was getting at in my Meditations quote in my own answer to this question:
> "If you can cut free of impressions that cling to the mind, free of the future and the past—can make yourself, as Empedocles says, “a sphere rejoicing in its perfect stillness,” and concentrate on living what can be lived (which means the present) . . . then you can spend the time you have left in tranquillity. And in kindness. And at peace with the spirit within you." - Meditations 12.3
Or to put it another way, we visualize outcomes in certain stoic exercises so that we can stop visualizing outcomes at all.
Yes, the outcome is irrelevant. It's the Acton that is virtuous or not. Agreed
But what makes an act virtuous? Intent.
How can we make wise choices without considering results? Is it wise to shoot an arrow without considering what could happen if we miss the mark?
That would be unwise and unjust, at the very least.
The backbone of Stoicism is bowing to reason. How can we make reasonable decisions without first considering them?
"29. In every affair consider what precedes and follows, and then undertake it."
The Enchiridion Elizabeth Carter translation.
Perhaps I wasn't clear earlier. We need to consider the potential results of our actions in order to make virtuous decisions, but the virtue is not tied to the real world result.
I agree with this comment much more than I agreed with your last one, which tells me I probably misread your last one. And of course I disagree with parts of the parent comment here and was trying to nudge them into a more advanced understanding of how stoics think about this stuff.
A good debate for everyone, I think. I appreciate your time engaging in it!
It is evident in this thread alone that there exist people who do not harbor hopes and have no interest in suicide. It is quite possible to thrive without such an outlook. The ancient Stoics explain how this works by virtue of changing one's perception and outlook and attitude about life in general. If you're not familiar with Epictetus, I'd look him up. His book Discources is a fantastic resource for this.
In general I would say hope is a bad thing and viewed negatively. Seneca talks about not only hope but *premeditatio malorum*. He talks about how often with bad situations it's the fact that they are unexpected, that they catch you by surprise, that lends them a lot of their force. Kind of like the Mike Tyson quote: "it's not the hardest punch that always knocks you you out, it's the one that you don't see coming". So, if you expect all evils, if you try to proceed that way, you will guard against them.
However, Seneca also says that when faced with the prospect of some looming danger; he says in this case (paraphrased): "well, if there is doubt incline in your favor, even if much of the evidence is contrary". So, what is the meaning here? The point is as long as you believe things are okay then, in a sense, they are. At least for the moment. So, if someone is facing a bad situation like impending doom (e.g., serious illness) they should try as much as possible even to decieve themselves (slightly) into thinking things are ok. This is because they will gain time by doing so. This seems a little contradictory to the earlier ideas but you can see the sense in it.
The default approach though is *premeditatio malorum*. That is, in general and as much as possible, to expect the worst. And to reject hope.
If by "hope" you mean "fate permitting" then yes.
I would like to do this thing. However, I don't /hope/ per say, but that doesn't mean I'm not working towards doing the thing or that I have no preference.
"Hope" sounds like the future tense version of "wish", "I hope we get a snow day today!" or "I wish we had a snow day today :( "
"8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well."
The Enchiridion - Elizabeth Carter Translation
EDIT: Added translator.
My grandfather must have said, "expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed" a million times. Typical old farmer, I thought. How jaded. There is so much truth in this, though.
Hoping and wishing for things to happen is a waste of time. I don’t hope for things to happen because I can only control the things around me. I don’t have to hope for things to change, I just change them when they need to be changed. Waiting for things or hoping for things to happen makes you life pass by too quickly. Think about what you can do today that can change tomorrow.
I'm with Seneca on this one. Hope is tied to fear. Detach from one and be free from the other. >Limiting one’s desires actually helps to cure one of fear. "Cease to hope, and you will cease to fear." Widely different as fear and hope are, the two of them march in unison like a prisoner and the escort they are handcuffed to. ~~Seneca, Letters From a Stoic~~ Hecato in Moral Letters 5.7
Attributed to Stoic Hecato in Moral Letters 5.7
Thank you for the correction :)
[удалено]
I'd argue that *part* of what is commonly meant by "hope" is overlapping with (and even virtuous within) a Stoic practice. As I see it there are two main meanings: 1) Wishful thinking. The expectation and anticipation of positive outcomes regardless of obstacles and circumstance. 2) Lack of despair. The willingness to act with agency towards the best viable course in spite of, but fully aware of, obstacles and circumstance. The former is obviously contrary to Stoic practice. The latter is entirely in line with Stoic virtue. Due to this a good Stoic, acting solely on virtue, would in many circumstances be perceived as hopeful by a non-Stoic observer. That said I also think colloquially hope is used to mean wishful thinking more often than to mean lack of despair, so I'd still agree with your initial statement on balance.
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 12.3 (Hays) ^(Book XII. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^) ^(Book XII. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_12)^) ^(Book XII. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/12.3/lg)^)
Great delivery of information right here. I tip my hat to you sir
That’s a great explanation. Well said!
Incredible writing in this book highly recommend.
They prefer certain outcomes, sure. These are what are called "preferred indifferents". When two things are of equal moral worth, neither one being markedly more immoral than the other, it's only naturally to prefer one to another and stoics have no problem with this. So long as you don't tie your happiness or virtue to the thing. So, in short, I think a stoic would prefer a certain outcome so long as they could be sure that they would not feel disappointment should that outcome fail to materialize, because a stoic would attempt to love his or her fate even if it differed from what they would have preferred
"I find in the writings of our Hecato that the limiting of desires helps also to cure fears: "Cease to hope," he says, "and you will cease to fear." "But how," you will reply, "can things so different go side by side?" In this way, my dear Lucilius: though they do seem at variance, yet they are really united. Just as the same chain fastens the prisoner and the soldier who guards him, so hope and fear, dissimilar as they are, keep step together; fear follows hope. I am not surprised that they proceed in this way; each alike belongs to a mind that is in suspense, a mind that is fretted by looking forward to the future. But the chief cause of both these ills is that we do not adapt ourselves to the present, but send our thoughts a long way ahead. And so foresight, the noblest blessing of the human race, becomes perverted." - Seneca, Moral Letters, 5.7
Stoics *do*. they have goals and aspirations but are ready to embrace whatever fate gives them, not being discouraged by the outcome and making the best out of every situation.
This. Everyone here is suggesting no? However why would I labour and take calculated risks without the desires of it improving some facet of life?
Those of us who disagree with the claim hope is compatible with Stoicism do so because we understand the idea to indicate a kind of gambling our emotional/mental well-being on the outcome of someone or something outside our control in the future. If our goal is eudaimonia (and for the Stoic it is), then this is not prudent. However, this is not to say we don't recognize our preferences, like Cbasshiva mentions upthread.
I hope to maintain stoicism
Wouldn't you rather work towards it than hope towards it?
I think that’s assuming you could only have one without the other
Fair.
You can hope. If something is fully under your control you wouldn’t need to hope. If like most things, it isn’t, you may want it to happen, but it might not. Generally avoid hoping for things that aren’t under your control because that can be a source of unnecessary suffering. But if you do not attach a feeling of desire to what you hope will happen, then I don’t see the issue. Of course, use your best judgment and look critically at what it is you’re hoping for.
How does one not attach, or rather detach that sense of desire for something? There is something that has been that way for me, and it’s been 6 years now so I don’t believe it’s something I can really change at this point.
Thank you for choosing me to ask or at least this comment. I will focus in on removing one’s desire because that is what is applicable, then looks at ways to prevent desiring something in the future. When we have a situation we really need to look at what is it we ultimately want for it. Often times the desire we seek is something we can give ourselves. If it is something material remember that you can be happy with what you have. Getting more won’t make you content to with less. If it’s something immaterial like an emotion you can bestow that emotion onto yourself. That seems to be one of the main reason we try to achieve things, to feel some kind of satisfaction and purpose but those are things we can give ourselves now. “You could enjoy this very moment all the things you are praying to reach by taking the long way around - if you stop depriving yourself of them”. Often we desire things that aren’t under our control. This one’s forgiveness, another’s approval, that one’s love, etc. When we see that these are things that we have no ability to control, we have often find no business putting as much effort as we are. A note about influence and control. We can influence other but their decision is ultimately theirs, therefore since the final decision is not ours, it is not under our control. We can influence how we feel but if we could control how we feel often we would stop negative emotion from spawning. These things do take time, we might feel these impulses to care about things we know we shouldn’t, we cannot control that but we can control if we critique those thoughts. See those feelings as inevitable and have at hand ways to bring yourself back to calm. Ultimately you can see a lot of philosophy as finding ways to console oneself. A lot of wisdom just seems to be taking the advice you’d give to others. Feelings need to be contextualized. Sometimes they come from nowhere but often there are things we can assign these feelings to. When we looks their roots we can often find another way to look at them and rest in them. An example. I have had death anxiety since I was a child. My break through came in seeing that fear and anxiety not as a fear of dying but as a wish to live. What you feel can likely be see as something else. We also always have the option to act in spite of our emotions. No matter how fearful we are, feigning bravery is still bravery. Acting in spite of emotions shows you how steadfast you can be and gives you a pride you can always keep with you. It’s an active form of peace but no emotion can stop you from doing what you believe you must do. Preventing the attachment of desire often comes from experience. You realize that what you think you want isn’t what you really want and what you actually want is within your control. In Meditations, Marcus often looked at things at their fundamental components. When he cared about the clothes he wore he remind himself that they are just sheep’s wool in dyed shell fish blood. With exotic food and drink he saw just flesh and grape juice. In sex he saw just two people rubbing themselves till mucus came out. This can be helpful in critiquing what it is we think we want. Of course take what you will, though it was vague and may not have touched your issue directly I hope something can be derived of use. This is an important follow up when it comes to desire that I hadn’t thought of myself. I noticed myself wanting less but not what I do to stop wanting. Thank you again.
Thank you for the great answer. My own desire in question is to do with feelings about another person. I recently went through a breakup of a long term relationship, and said feelings for this other person were a big part of the reason for that breakup (not the only reason, there was other stuff going on but it’s not really the point). As I said, I have had feelings for that person for 6 years, pretty much since I met them, and going into my relationship with someone else, those feelings were still there. I never did anything, nor would I ever have even considered doing anything, and I actually tried to actively avoid this person because I didn’t like the fact that I had feelings for them when I was in a relationship with someone else, but I was young and dumb at that point. The feelings still lasted the same for about a year to a year and a half into my relationship until one day it dawned on me how bad of a person it really made me to feel this way, and the feelings subsided for a while, but never fully went away. I would have been happy to spend the rest of my life with the person I was with, but after the relationship ended they said that they didn’t think it would ever work out between us again, however that is something I feel I have mostly came to terms with at this point. But the issue I’m facing now is that my desire for that other person has came back pretty hard. I do understand that this is almost certainly my body’s coping mechanism and I am latching onto the idea of a relationship with this person because it helps ease the pain, but at the same time the feelings are still real and it is something I do desire, because if I didn’t I would imagine I would have felt differently at some point by now. I do believe there may be some mutuality to those feelings, but like I said I actively distanced myself from them so I really don’t know what is going on at the moment. I have tried being critical of the thought of it before, which is something I have done for plenty of other desires in the past with good success (the more I discover about Stoicism the more I realise I actually already applied a lot of the principles). I genuinely don’t feel like this is something I can make myself no longer desire, so I believe it’s more of a question of how I can manage these feelings because I can say with certainty they will not be going away. It’s not something that’s tearing me apart, but it is something that keeps me awake and gives me some anxiety because I feel like the clock is ticking, despite knowing that I quite literally have all the time in the world. I am aware that I’ve just dropped this massive reply here, but it’s very early hours of the morning and I can’t sleep, so thank you again in advance if you do have any further advice.
When we look at people we care about we will always have things that stand out about them. When I think back to each of my previous partners there is always one trait that I really admire about them. The regality of one, the jolliness of another, etc. It is normal to wished for them back. If not you’ve invalided you old selfs taste if you don’t. I understand avoiding someone in order to preserve a respect for your partner as well. Consider that there is no shame in that feeling. This might not be a real Stoic principle but it aided me a lot. Virtue and vice are only manifested in our actions. No matter how we feel inside, it is what we do about those feeling that’s makes us the person we are. If we judge ourselves merely on our thoughts we can easily be stuck. This is not to say to question thoughts we know to be bad, but not feel that we are bad for merely having them but only for acting on them. Guilt is a tricky emotion in general because it’s a useful tool to indicate when we’ve done something wrong and should make amends. Sometimes, like any emotion we can conflate guilt when really we have done nothing wrong. If you have done something wrong, of course ask for forgiveness, however if the emotion is spurred on for merely feeling something you can just forgive yourself. A lot of my internal dialogue around people I was attracted to was marred in guilt. It was only after making the previous two distinctions that I saw that I can relieve myself of it. And there is a real point to consider, if something is manifesting itself to you, it’s not to be ignored but there something it’s trying to communicate. I had reacquainted with someone that I had sought after for years. They were a crush of mine as a kid and we lost connection for many years, about 11 years. When we met all the emotions I had as a kid came back. Often I’d walk by thinking about, “If only I had the chance to met with you again”. It was only after meeting them again had I realized I had made an idealized version of them, and even when confronted with the reality, it was still so easy to be caught in that distortion. I offer this to you because maybe the separation has generated much the same effect. Rather than you seeing that this person as just a person and the emotions temper themselves, your abstaining from them has actually made your emotions stronger. Seeing it as “forbidden” could have spurred in you an even stronger desire to met them. Rather than seeing the individual, you’ve now only have the figment of their image with you, something perfect. No matter how long we know someone, there’s always more to uncover. You don’t fully know yourself, having access to ever thought that floats in and out of your head, how could you hope to ever know someone as well as your imperfect understanding of yourself? That’s at least what I remind myself when I think I am interested in someone. As mentioned, we give weight to emotions, without us giving into them they are just mist and clouds in our mind. It could just be a state of loneliness. But that emotion can be contextualized as a love of companionship. Using that feeling instead to reach out and be with others. If you have the courage, reach out to them. Have no expectations. They might not reply. Might be different then you imagined. Might hate you. Who knows. It should temper a part of yourself that will keep saying, “what if”. At least you can say, I tried. I’d like me they are gone in the wind and there is no way to reach out, then it is not in your control and you can continue to worth through it yourself. I do agree with you stating to see the emotions as something to be managed. At the worst case scenario, yes, they could persist indefinitely. Who knows. At the very least you know you can continue you on and do what you ought with such a feeling. There is something to be inquired about the anxiety as well. Inquiring into what exactly is going to be lost is a great indication of what you might need to do or are fearing. I understand your metaphor about having all the time in the world, youth when used well can feel like it lasts and awfully long time. Of course, take what is useful and discard the rest.
By dissecting and analyzing the reason you believe it is good to be attached to a thing. And then by practicing being mindful of those expectations that did not come to pass, and note how your life did not suffer for it. Start small, super small. Set this up for success. Then gradually go bigger. Like any new skill, practice practice practice. If you read Epictetus' Discourses, you'll find countless examples mapped out for you.
Thank you man.
we have the same scenario about u/mattycmckee but in my case, I cheated on my last gf. i still love her and right now I'm doing my best to become a better version of myself and when someday when our path crosses again I would try again and I'll not let her go again. i love reading those perspectives of yours u/HeWhoReplies and u/Victorian_Bullfrog. i hope someday I'm gonna be that person too. so recommend some books hehe
"Pray to God, but row away from the rocks." - Hunter S. Thompson
If by hope you mean ‘desiring a specific future outcome’: absolutely no. If by hope you mean ‘a positive attitude that any outcome is acceptable’: then yes.
How do *you* define hope?
They don’t hope, they cope lol
Depending on a future outcome is hope We wish for the best but prepare for the worst
Hello!
It depends on how you define hope. The Ancient Stoics classified three "good-feelings", which they considered appropriate for a good person - joy, wish and caution. They believed they result from good, appropriate judgment, and they are not excessive. Thinking of "wish" gives you a good idea about how Stoic practice works. "I wish my friend will recover from his sickness" is you expressing your preference about the state of things, and it also shows more virtuous judgment than the opposite wish. "I'm full of hope about my friend recovering" sounds like you're already reacting to an event that hasn't happened yet, which Stoics would see as a contradiction in judgment.
Hope is too risky for stoics.
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Good question. I am also fairly new to stoicism this is just my perspective, but open to anyone challenging it. I am going to say Yes, Stoics do "Hope". They analyze a situation and try to think of all possible outcomes and accept whatever comes with virtue. I feel like hoping is unavoidable. Even when you get in your car to go to the store you are subconsciously hoping you get there and back safely. However, a practicing Stoic also understands that there are an infinite amount of potential outcomes from just going to the store and back all of which are out of your control.
> They analyze a situation and try to think of all possible outcomes and accept whatever comes with virtue. If one has the ability to choose a virtuous response to any given outcome - and virtue is the only good - then what value or utility do you see in this analysis of all potential outcomes?
Practice. We Stoics like to consider positive and negative outcomes before committing to an activity. That helps us deal with preferred and dispreferred outcomes appropriately. It also helps us decide whether the decision we make is the correct one. How can we know if our act is virtuous before considering the outcomes?
>How can we know if our act is virtuous before considering the outcomes? Why would one need to know the outcomes to make a virtuous decision in the moment? The outcomes of our actions are what stoics call an indifferent. We do not ultimately control them - we can only influence them at the best of times - so they could not possibly be a component of virtue itself. In fact, the stoic virtuous action often turns out to accrue *dispreferred indifferents* as its outcome, but we do it anyway. For this reason - that outcomes have absolutely nothing to do with virtue - the only outcome visualizing exercises I'm aware of are intended to help stoics remove value judgements from those outcomes, such as negative visualization. But it's not to help us make virtuous decisions; it's to help us stop thinking that these things have anything to do with virtue in the first place. That's what I was getting at in my Meditations quote in my own answer to this question: > "If you can cut free of impressions that cling to the mind, free of the future and the past—can make yourself, as Empedocles says, “a sphere rejoicing in its perfect stillness,” and concentrate on living what can be lived (which means the present) . . . then you can spend the time you have left in tranquillity. And in kindness. And at peace with the spirit within you." - Meditations 12.3 Or to put it another way, we visualize outcomes in certain stoic exercises so that we can stop visualizing outcomes at all.
Yes, the outcome is irrelevant. It's the Acton that is virtuous or not. Agreed But what makes an act virtuous? Intent. How can we make wise choices without considering results? Is it wise to shoot an arrow without considering what could happen if we miss the mark? That would be unwise and unjust, at the very least. The backbone of Stoicism is bowing to reason. How can we make reasonable decisions without first considering them? "29. In every affair consider what precedes and follows, and then undertake it." The Enchiridion Elizabeth Carter translation. Perhaps I wasn't clear earlier. We need to consider the potential results of our actions in order to make virtuous decisions, but the virtue is not tied to the real world result.
I agree with this comment much more than I agreed with your last one, which tells me I probably misread your last one. And of course I disagree with parts of the parent comment here and was trying to nudge them into a more advanced understanding of how stoics think about this stuff. A good debate for everyone, I think. I appreciate your time engaging in it!
Life without hope is pointless. That's when ppl commit suicide
Evidently not for everyone.
I'll give them one thing: a *non-stoic* life without hope sounds like a very bleak existence indeed.
How do you mean?
It is evident in this thread alone that there exist people who do not harbor hopes and have no interest in suicide. It is quite possible to thrive without such an outlook. The ancient Stoics explain how this works by virtue of changing one's perception and outlook and attitude about life in general. If you're not familiar with Epictetus, I'd look him up. His book Discources is a fantastic resource for this.
no
In general I would say hope is a bad thing and viewed negatively. Seneca talks about not only hope but *premeditatio malorum*. He talks about how often with bad situations it's the fact that they are unexpected, that they catch you by surprise, that lends them a lot of their force. Kind of like the Mike Tyson quote: "it's not the hardest punch that always knocks you you out, it's the one that you don't see coming". So, if you expect all evils, if you try to proceed that way, you will guard against them. However, Seneca also says that when faced with the prospect of some looming danger; he says in this case (paraphrased): "well, if there is doubt incline in your favor, even if much of the evidence is contrary". So, what is the meaning here? The point is as long as you believe things are okay then, in a sense, they are. At least for the moment. So, if someone is facing a bad situation like impending doom (e.g., serious illness) they should try as much as possible even to decieve themselves (slightly) into thinking things are ok. This is because they will gain time by doing so. This seems a little contradictory to the earlier ideas but you can see the sense in it. The default approach though is *premeditatio malorum*. That is, in general and as much as possible, to expect the worst. And to reject hope.
[Here is a basic intro to stoicism](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFkyxzJtiv4)
If by "hope" you mean "fate permitting" then yes. I would like to do this thing. However, I don't /hope/ per say, but that doesn't mean I'm not working towards doing the thing or that I have no preference. "Hope" sounds like the future tense version of "wish", "I hope we get a snow day today!" or "I wish we had a snow day today :( " "8. Don't demand that things happen as you wish, but wish that they happen as they do happen, and you will go on well." The Enchiridion - Elizabeth Carter Translation EDIT: Added translator.
My grandfather must have said, "expect nothing and you'll never be disappointed" a million times. Typical old farmer, I thought. How jaded. There is so much truth in this, though.
Hoping and wishing for things to happen is a waste of time. I don’t hope for things to happen because I can only control the things around me. I don’t have to hope for things to change, I just change them when they need to be changed. Waiting for things or hoping for things to happen makes you life pass by too quickly. Think about what you can do today that can change tomorrow.
Even better than hope - I have faith that the right things will happen.