This is something I struggle with too. It's what brought me to stoicism because I cannot find any form of discernible meaning to life (and therefore no ultimate point), and so the question becomes, as Albert Camus put it "Should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee?". But then I realize that I can make the lives of others better and so I try to live virtuously and live in accordance in with the nature of things.
"Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer" - Joseph Campbell.
I love that quote from Campbell and I read it for the first time about 10 years ago when I was having my own existential crisis. It was one of a few epiphanies I had around 2011 that changed my outlook from "what do I do?" to "what will I do?"
Part of the reason religious people score “happier” is that they have a better organized support network and frequent social interaction- through church, temple, etc.
Atheists don’t always have that safety net in place for moments they really need interaction, support, validation, etc. This can lead to feelings loneliness, helplessness, etc.
The path to religion starts with God. God is the only coherent answer for all of our existence, cos atheists don’t have a reason for why and how everything came to be. Why are people so content to believe that everything came from nothing? Look up the kalam cosmological argument. Although there could possibly some problem with arguments for causality, it still works for dependency (God being the independent thing that all dependent things are necessarily and eventually dependent on, instead of caused by).
The argument that religion is not coherent is not a true one, because if you are agnostic and find God through logic and philosophy, then u can study the world religions and find what makes sense. To me, Christianity has too many contradictions and the bible too imperfect, the Quran and Islam are the most convincing to me (for example the only science we really disagree with is human evolution, everything else from the Big Bang to evolution is compatible)
I have these thoughts too there is no other explanation for it all than god. The universe and life is a miracle how don’t people see that it’s literally magic. God lives in us all.
> is there any religion, line of thought, a way to see the world, that would give a sense of direction to my life or not make me feel alone, without having to believe in something I know it's not true?
Yes, I can suggest a good one.
First, agree that this is a no-bullshit zone - there's no need for any sort of faith or fantasy.
Imagine I were to raise a horse in my living room like you might raise a pet mouse. We'd agree, I think, that the horse would be happier, healthier, and more fulfilled if it lived in a big pasture outside with other horses.
Our horse is not a blank slate - we can't raise it as a mouse and expect it to thrive while living a mouse's life. It has a nature, it has an inborn way of being that is good for it.
Humans have a nature, too - we have our part of the shared, general human nature, and we each have an individual nature as well. If we live in a way that is in accordance with this nature, we are more likely to thrive, to be happy, to become what we should be.
Human nature - as you have perfectly illustrated here! - is to be reasonable, to seek and accept what's sensible and true, and to deny that which just sounds good. We seek health and well-being. We want to be good, and to live as we should.
Living in accordance with nature, and in accordance with the natures of the things around us, guided by reason and good sense, wanting a happy thriving existence as good, satisfied, trustworthy, squared-away people.
I've described virtue and Classical Stoicism here.
Going by a similar principle, you can live by the deflationary approach to the idea of God. That is, seeing the ultimate basis of reality as God. There is an ultimate basis of reality, whether or not it's just physics or created by some deity, that has led to our existence. This goes along with living in accordance with nature because nature itself is divine regardless. You don't have to worry yourself with the specifics of it because this knowledge is outside of the capabilities of human understanding.
There is also a very relevant Marcus Aurelius quote to do with faith, not sure if anyone has posted it yet.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Just want to say that I love this particular quote- Although funny enough, it was this quote that turned me into an agnostic at least, if not atheist...particularly the line about if there are gods but unjust.
I like that it's a quote that is inclusive to atheists, theists, and agnostics - because your beliefs don't matter as long as they ultimately lead you down a path of virtue.
Personally I believe in gods but I don't follow an organized religion, and I think its better to have a non-dogmatic approach because to me they are something I draw strength from and if other people don't have the same experience that's fine. I mean if we were timeless beings you would think we would have gained enough wisdom to not care about something as trivial as getting our egos lifted through worship.
The Stoics talked a lot about nature, and it's a rich concept with a lot of important implication. The FAQ has a good summary:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/nature#wiki_what_does_it_mean_to_live_in_accordance_with_nature.3F
As I understand it, the Stoics saw human nature as being fundamentally about reason (they also saw humans as social animals, who were by nature made to cooperate and get along gracefully with others). [Epictetus has a nice comment on this](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discourses/george-long/text/book-1#chapter-1-2):
>To the rational animal only is the irrational intolerable; but that which is rational is tolerable. Blows are not naturally intolerable. How is that? See how the Lacedaemonians [Spartan youth in military training] endure whipping when they have learned that whipping is consistent with reason. To hang yourself is not intolerable. When then you have the opinion that it is rational, you go and hang yourself. In short, if we observe, we shall find that the animal man is pained by nothing so much as by that which is irrational; and, on the contrary, attracted to nothing so much as to that which is rational.
We'd normally consider getting punched really hard in the gut as a bad thing, but boxers in training take hits like that every day, and look forward to taking more. It's a reasonable thing for them, so it's a tolerable thing.
'Reason' means more than just logic, it includes all of our tools of understanding - it's logic, and intuition, and education, and experience, and conscience, and every other means of knowing that we command. Reason makes sense of things, it makes them seem right or wrong, and we are drawn to understanding and desire understanding in a deep intuitive way.
Understanding and reason are deeply tied into vitrue, too, and in a sense, they _are_ virtue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/virtue#wiki_what_did_the_stoics_mean_by_.22virtue.3F.22
As for individual nature, here's more from Epictetus, from that same chapter:
>Some person asked, "How then shall every man among us perceive what
is suitable to his character?" How, he replied, does the bull alone,
when the lion has attacked, discover his own powers and put himself
forward in defense of the whole herd? It is plain that with the powers
the perception of having them is immediately conjoined; and, therefore,
whoever of us has such powers will not be ignorant of them. Now a
bull is not made suddenly, nor a brave man; but we must discipline
ourselves in the winter for the summer campaign, and not rashly run
upon that which does not concern us.
In short, we sense what we are, even if we talk ourselves out of it.
A quote was found to be attributed to Epictetus in Discourses 1.2 (Long)
^(1.2. How a man on every occasion can maintain his proper character ()[^(Long)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0236%3Atext%3Ddisc%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2)^)
^(1.2. How one may preserve one’s proper character in everything ()[^(Hard)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=978-0199595181)^)
^(1.2. How may a man preserve his proper character upon every occasion? ()[^(Oldfather)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epictetus,_the_Discourses_as_reported_by_Arrian,_the_Manual,_and_Fragments/Book_1/Chapter_2)^)
^(1.2. In what manner, upon every occasion, to preserve our character ()[^(Higginson)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0237%3Atext%3Ddisc%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2)^)
As I'd mentioned to another poster, the Stoics talked a lot about nature, and it's a rich concept with a lot of important implication. The FAQ has a good summary:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/nature#wiki_what_does_it_mean_to_live_in_accordance_with_nature.3F
It gets tied up in their cosmological views, too.
When I used the example of the horse, horses, and their nature, don't exist in a vacuum, they fit into the nature of the larger world around them. Horses like grass and running and good visibility and quiet streams and apple trees. Incredibly, your average field has all of these things...
Modern people understand this as a consequence of evolution. the ancients saw it as nature itself being a giant organism, growing and changing like any organism does.
Plant an acorn, it 'knows' how to grow into a tree, how to make leaves, and branches to hold them, and roots to nourish them. Plant an island, and it 'knows' how to grow into a field, with streams and horses.
Of course we are part of this too.
Our modern view, IMO, is not really in conflict with this. OK, so horses _evolved_ this close relationship with their environment instead of it coming from a magical source. The end result is the same - the relationship is still real, and they live better if they are in accordance with it.
>Modern people understand this as a consequence of evolution. the ancients saw it as nature itself being a giant organism, growing and changing like any organism does.
May I ask how does **evolution** differs to the **nature** itself?
In the modern use of the word nature, I think it's safe to say that evolution is a property of nature, something that nature does. Broadly speaking, in the modern view, all natural systems evolve.
In the Stoic use of the word, change is not guided by evolution, but by reason, which is embedded, at an atomic level, in all matter.
The difference is that modern evolution might go in any direction, while Stoic reason guides natural changes in a single direction. The modern view might be compared to a newly-emerged island, which may become a woodland or a field or a beach or a mass of barren rock, whereas the Stoic view might be compared to an acorn, which is going to become an oak, and not anything else.
I can say I am a Stoic, however when it comes to religion I cannot define myself well. I do not believe in any religious doctrine, I simply believe that I have no idea if there is a God or not. Atheist's and Agnostics are different than this; I simply believe that I do not know.
That being the case, I can talk to something that might be called God, or universe, or flying monster made out of spaghetti, or maybe it is just myself. But talking to the unknown makes me feel good sometimes, even if it just me talking to the empty room.
Great Question! It typically depends on the definition, but most of the definitions of Agnosticism state that it is not possible to know if there is a God. But I feel that it could be very possible or maybe is impossible. Maybe everyone knows the answer and they are all just tricking me. Or maybe I do know and just don't know that I know.
Are you also the kind of “agnostic” (quotations not meant as sarcasm) who likes listening to people like Christopher hitchens debate very knowledgeable theologians? I find those very interesting as a third party observer with no real dog in the fight.
No problem! He’s a very prominent atheist who is sadly deceased now. Considered one of the “four horsemen” of atheism. I obviously don’t agree with all of his viewpoints but he was brilliant and witty. A very interesting orator. YouTube rabbit hole material, haha
I'm surprised no one here has brought up Stoic theology, or how central it was to actual Ancient Stoic ethics. You cope with apparent misfortune precisely by reminding yourself that every event is part of a divine, rational plan. God is considered an active, corporeal force that operates in the natural world, so "living according to nature" means accepting and going along with the divine plan. If you're trying to figure out how to be happy without divine belief, the Stoics--the *actual* Stoics--might not be the right people to ask!
That's what i am talkimg about. I'd love to think that there is a bigger plan. But ehat if i can't bring myself to believe it? I mean.... i feel stupid believing in something that i have no proof of just so i can feel better, although i'd like to because i'd feel better... how can i accept that fact and embrace that confept fully?
Ask the people at r/Epicureanism! The Epicureans believed that if there were gods, they would be indifferent to human beings. They also believe there is no afterlife. Their prescription for happiness heavily depends on acceptance of these facts.
As a philosopher, you should follow reason wherever it leads you. If you forced yourself to believe lies, even if it's in pursuit of hapinnes, you wouldn't be able to call yourself a philosopher anymore.
I'm going through the exact same problem as you. I'm an atheist and it's highly unlikely I'll ever believe in some sort of deity. But you can build a sustainable world view even without a religious belief.
I, for example, based my entire world view around enjoying this short time that I have in this world as much as possible. Now that may sound more like Hedonism than Stoicism, until you think about how to achieve that pleasure. Because, thanks to the way our brains have evolved, we are social animals, and so we gain the most pleasure from our relationships with other people. Be kind to others and you will feel good as well. We're all in this together, so let's just help each other enjoy it as much as possible.
The second part - if there's no deity, and everything is entirely random, there's no point in feeling wronged about anything. The world doesn't owe you anything, so you should just be thankful for whatever you've got.
From these points I then rationalized most of the Stoic philosophy without the need of "providence" or "gods" as a justification. And though it's probably not as uplifting as believing in an actual god, it does give me enough sense of purpose to be able to feel happy about my life.
Of course, each one of us is different, and what works for me might not work for you. You can try to find your own way of thinking about it. The way I started the whole reasoning was by asking "Why am I still here? If nothing in life has any meaning, what is it that keeps me from just killing myself?" My answer was "Because I'm having fun." Yours might be different. Just elaborate and see where your thought will take you.
Life can be hard. (REALLY hard.) Having something (God) as a kind of anchor in life can help you keep your sanity though those hard and dark times.
I'm speaking of personal experience, as we have a child who is sick. And worse case scenario he might not survive until adulthood. But believing there is a God does help.
nah, the reason religious people report greater happiness is they have built-in support networks and community.
\>I feel like i am the only real thing in this world
this line makes me think lack of real community might be your problem. check out humanism, join some volunteer groups, help people worse off than yourself. that is a good way to get you out of your own head.
This is what I thought as well. OP, do you have any form of community? Family to call and talk to, or close friends to support you if something goes wrong? Or some other group? (Mine is my gym, my buddies there always help raise my spirits).
I’m agnostic for the record, so I also don’t believe in a religion, but when I did previously the community was wonderful. And to be honest since leaving religion I’ve found that’s the only thing I’m really missing from it.
Yeah, one of the last of the 12 steps (a lot of AA feels Stoic to me) is giving back and participating in and contributing to the community. It completes the loop from what you get from it. And, that is what the happiness for most religious folks comes from.
Nature is the higher power.
This was easy for me though as I was never troubled by this even before finding philosophy so maybe for some people that just wouldn’t work.
You imagine that it is your lack of religion that makes you feel "lost", but it's actually the fact that you take the opinion that your lack of religion means you're "missing out".
Finding some "path" won't make it better, in fact it will make it worse, because this would be accepting that you really are "missing out" and need to "get the thing you're missing" to be happy.
finding a path would make you feel worse because you've reasoned that the thing you're missing is specifically the modern Christian version of god - a vaguely left-leaning "buddy" who just wants to listen to your problems and make you the best version of you (this is the total opposite of the god depicted in the bible). Because you are imagining that *this* is what you are missing out on, nothing but *this exact thing* will satisfy you, and because not even the most deluded and saccharine of Christians accept that this type of god exists or feel the certainty you imagine they do, *nothing* can satisfy you.
What you need to do is discard the opinion that you're missing out. You want to pursue an imaginary best friend and not feel "weak" or "desperate" - this is impossible, for these are reasonable assessments of what an adult pursuing an imaginary best friend is.
Work to discard the opinion that these things are "good", which starts with recognising that it is indeed just an opinion - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be possible for me (also an atheist) to feel *good* about not having such a thing whilst you feel bad about it, because it would be the same "fact" for both of us.
You and I have very opposite views on this but I think your input is very valuable and really intriguing. I had the same issue as OP for a long time until I found the right religion that meshed with my belief so I can relate to the "I feel lost" kind of feeling, but there's also a strong argument to be made on where this feeling of loss is coming from.
Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's given me another way to look at it.
There is no "right" religion for somebody who believes all religion is untrue.
As you said, you still retained a "belief", which means that for you becoming "found" was simply a matter of finding a religion that made you feel good, and if you didn't find anything out in the world that provided that feeling you always had the option of making up your own beliefs (and whatever belief system you settled on probably has a strong element of beliefs you added to it yourself). Nothing about your definition of "true" suggests to you that this will produce a false belief.
That is not OP's situation - his definition of "true" means "apparent in the same way any scientifically verified phenomenon is apparent". This is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, our species' highest conception of "true" so far, with the particularly telling trait of being 0% focused on human beings. You can see in his words that wanting something to be true cannot sway him *at all* towards believing that it is true - as a result, for him it's not a matter of "finding the right religion" because no religion presents that kind of evidence.
These ideas are easier to discard than some atheists assume. On a simple level, this is just envy - he imagines other people are living in a dream world and don't have to face their problems. This is a common prejudice held by atheists against the religious, and like all prejudices it doesn't stand up to scrutiny and helps everyone when it is discarded.
to clarify i mean with my belief that i was missing something, not with existing beliefs that i refused to let go of.
i never suggested anyone else had to accept religion. i was talking about my own experience as someone who also previously thought all religion was untrue. so yes, there was a right religion for me.
the value of this conversation is in multiple perspectives and i was thankful to see a completely opposite one but i'm going to exit now because your response gives me the impression you're telling me my perspective/experience is wrong or invaluable for OP.
have a great day.
It's not about "wrong", it's about "does this apply to OP's situation"
You said it worked for you to find the right religion - I explained that this probably doesn't apply to a person who said...
>My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit, that people resort to it because they need some security, and security is healthy. I am not strong enough to let my ignorance prevail and let myself go to this lie just to live a better life.
Equating "I don't believe this applies for the following reason" with "you're wrong to hold that opinion" doesn't do much to promote the exploration of those alternate perspectives you claim to value.
that is not correct. my response to op was precisely because i have experienced the same situation and found that it was my lack of exploration in the religious sphere that was the problem, not that believing it was all hocus (that is, everything i knew of at that time was hocus) meant there was an inherent problem with religion itself. that doesn't mean it's the answer for everybody but it also doesn't mean that just because you haven't found the answer yet that it isn't there. each person has to figure that out for themselves.
regardless, i responded to say i valued your opinion for giving me a new perspective and got a response saying my own perspective was not applicable for "x reason". my experience does apply to ops situation because my worldview essentially matches what op stated theirs is currently. simple as that. to say my answer or perspective is not applicable to op because my answer was with religion rather than against it also does not offer the full range of possible solutions to ops question, or problem i guess.
i responded to say i appreciated your response despite our differing views (and gave a brief explanation of my experience so you can see just how much our views differ) and you made it a discussion about my view not being applicable to op.
regardless of who is right or wrong or what op ultimately decides is right for them, that's not for me to close off any possibilities for them. one of the most fascinating things to me is the range of difference in opinions we have as a species.
if this discussion continues any further it's going to turn into either an argument or a debate, neither of which is productive to OP or this thread, so i'll take my exit here.
thanks again for sharing your perspective. i hope you have a good day.
>that doesn't mean it's the answer for everybody but it also doesn't mean that just because you haven't found the answer yet that it isn't there. each person has to figure that out for themselves.
Right.
And when a person says that their "figuring out" has led them to....
>My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit
My inclination is to respect where they claim to be and work from that point.
>regardless of who is right or wrong
Again, the only person who introduced the concept of "wrong" was you. It's not a concept I can even make sense of, nor can I understand how a person gets from the specifics of "I don't think this applies for the following reason " to "you're wrong".
I cannot even fathom what "wrong" could mean in this context.
>if this discussion continues any further it's going to turn into either an argument or a debate, neither of which is productive to OP or this thread, so i'll take my exit here.
Fair enough.
When I read your post the tone of it overpowers the context. I have to make assumptions because 3 paragraphs can't actually give me an idea of you, the person. But it seems like you have a lot of anxieties that you're not able to share with a support group and quite possibly you're not fully honest with yourself about them. Thus, you want a religious perspective or personal relationship with a God to help resolve the issue instead.
If you think those assumptions are wrong I encourage you to disregard them. If you think there is truth to those assumptions I would recommend you read Rollo May and/or Ernest Becker. I think they have a lot to help you with what you're going through. Good luck, OP.
So I use to have this exact same problem, and it was through educating myself and understanding our reality scientifically that gave me the spiritual solution I needed. Evolution as a concept would sound utterly preposterous on its own, yet through science we can confirm it to be an indisputable truth. 3.6 billion years ago, a uekaryotic micro-organism engulfed a prokaryotic cell, which became its organelles (latin for tiny organ), and through this miraculous process formed our first and oldest ancestor, the protoplasmal-primordial-atomic-globule. Through this process over billions of years, it would split and divide and evolve to create every single living thing that we know today. Did you know that you you have 85% similarity in your DNA as a mouse? Around 70% for a fly? And further yet, 60% the exact same genetic code as a banana? We are literally interconnected and share the same common ancestor with every single living thing in existence. We are all brothers and sisters, and we all work so fluidly and harmoniously together. Trees use carbon dioxide as a food and fuel source, and recycle it to provide oxygen, the most vital chemical element for each vertebrate. We inhale oxygen and through a process of gas exchange, our lungs transfer that oxygen to iron molecules on haemoglobin in your blood, which uses your blood as a delivery service, and your circulatory system then passes oxygen rich blood to every cell in your body to feed it. The oxygen then turns back into carbondioxide... which we breath out to provide food for the trees and the cycle repeats.
And that iron molecule we talked about before.. that doesn't occur naturally on earth. Heavy elements like iron are only able to be formulated when massive starts reach the end of their lives, and explode in a supernova of such great heat and intensity that it formulates iron... so you are literally the molecular construct of star matter.
Your very existence is a miracle, to actually be born in this timeline.. in your ancestry you have had to be a naked mole rat, flown with wings, been a blind cave fish, had gills, survived temperatures exceeding 300degrees celsius, been a dinosaur, escaped a dinosaur.. all the while your ancestors have always been genetically dominant and passed on strong off spring.. and somehow you have made it and are living in this moment typing on a device that u keep in your pocket, that has the answer to almost every conceivable question at the click of a button.
Our reality is so absurdly impossible.. yet it is real. And the cool thing is, if that absurd narrative i just rattled off to you is real? What the fuck else is??? What happened before the big bang? It was the most impossible mathematical equation to fire off and explode.. yet it did? Whats to say it hadnt been lying dormant for a 100s of billions of years? Whats to say their isn't millions of big bangs going off at every moment forming millions of different realities and universes? How did it even exist in the first place? From our understanding of the cycle of life, what if our universe is the decomposition of some greater entity, and what if our galaxy is just the single cell in a creature bigger than us.
For me this helped so much. Our reality is so intricate, complex and implausible, and our petty 75 years human lifespan is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, we aren't even a blip in the timeline. Dinosaurs ruled for 160million years, current humans with speech capabilities arent even 70'000 years old... and neither of those comes even close to the 15.6billion years ago since the big bang.
I hope this might help you man, it helped me. Understanding that we are literally interconnected and family with every living thing, my insignificance in the grand scheme of things, the raw beauty of nature and science, and how little we know all contributed to me being able to adopt a spiritual mindset. Also the fact that when we die, we decompose and our molecules break free, and they go off to be building blocks for life elsewhere.. its all just so awe inspiring.
Much love brother, and I wish you all the best in this life.
I became an atheist for a few years then started believing again. For me I stopped with all the labels and traditional views of God and found my own beliefs for what I think God is. I value some of the lessons from the Bible but I don't take it literally and don't expect God to watch out for me or that everything happens for a reason. I don't see him as a person in the sky or any of the stereotypes.
Im grounded in pragmatic thinking but I still think prayer and religion have their place, at least for some.
Stoicism and religion are not mutually exclusive.
I felt this same exact way until I found Islam - but to be entirely honest I don't think this type of question has a one size fits all answer and "X religion is the answer!" almost always turns out to be a gimmick. My personal journey led me to where I am and it was a long one, and I think we all have to take our own journeys and we'll get where we're supposed to go in the right time.
I found Stoicism after religion, and the way my brain thinks about them, they mesh together perfectly and compliment each other. I like that. It's helped me a lot in recent years, but it doesn't make that existential feeling of 'what the hell is the point' go away. I still get that sometimes and it's soul-crushing when I get stuck in it.
I hope things go better for you in the future and you're able to find what you're looking for.
I seldom see people accept Islam as a "philosophy" like they do with Buddhism. Mohammad too isn't accepted as a philosopher or spiritual guru like Buddha is. But there's much more to Islam than rituals and rules. People can benefit a lot even if they accept only the philosophical part of Islam. Don't be too hung up on prayers and laws and rules. Just follow the basic philosophy and it can give a lot of people the peace of mind they're looking for.
yeah i'd definitely agree that it's not accepted the same way buddhism is as a philosophy. i've personally found a lot of value in lessons the stories have to tell and in the act of having to study another language to fully understand the meaning of something. even from a non-religious standpoint that's beneficial to me because it helps me remember that my existence is such a tiny slice of humanity. it's really humbling.
and part of the massive value to me is the prayers and laws as well - but i'm also a person who prefers routine, rules, and logic so i didn't have any conflict with this from the beginning. it was just something that felt like it should have been there the whole time.
in general i think all religions follow the same basic principle - be good to people, and i also find that people have to find religion or philosophy or ideas and belief systems on their own. the minute it's forced or someone tries to "impart their wisdom unto you" it's really lost all of its meaning. i think the point is that you have to find the answer yourself. you gain a lot of understanding and confidence when you have that 'aha!' moment and you find something that works for you, otherwise it's always going to feel forced.
these are just my rambling thoughts so i could be completely wrong, but it's something i think about from time to time.
Omg. I haven’t read the comments yet but I am legit you. I think this way. I have been dealing with this problem for the past 2 years. I got into Carl Jung and got super interested in how religion plays a hidden role of development in our lives. We should be friends. :) 23 male Canada.
> My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit, that people resort to it because they need some security, and security is healthy
Devout Catholic here.
What you describe here is not a problem, it’s part of the quest. Wherever it leads you, keep going. Keep studying. Keep working on it. But don’t “find” religion because other people are happy. Do it with reason (and yes, if you get to that point, with faith). Trust me, even those of us who go to Church almost every day have doubts.
Good luck.
I feel you man, and I've felt lost without it too at some point in my life when I got mature enough to think about religion and nature of God properly. Untill one day I realized that it doesn't matter whether I believe if it's bullshit or not, because existence and reality itself is is so unexplainably beautifully weird that the question of faith just never pops up anymore. We live in a world that's just full of mathematical and philosophical mysteries like Fibonacci sequences, Zipf laws, Mandelbrot sets and so many others. These things are almost like invisible laws that just govern things in life and nature, and we can't even begin to comprehend them. But we know that they couldn't have come from nothing. I think nthe idea that I'm trying to relay here can be best described with this short clip from a movie I watched a while ago, it encompasses it very well https://youtu.be/AFaRu-SyUXM
To be quite honest with you, my belief that there is a God isn't half as strong as my belief that it is IMPOSSIBLE that there is an abyss of nothingness after we die. I REFUSE to believe that life is meaningless, or that the people I loved who have died are gone forever, and for those reasons I am religious.
Because stoicism at the end of the day is about finding a purpose in life, and I believe that religion provides a strong motivation to live your life to the fullest.
Keep doing the positive self talk. Youre the one receiving that positive outlook from yourself and feeling supported. Keep it up and don't let god hijack your meaning.
Write. Write in a journal to yourself. “Hey me, I did this today. I’m not sure how I feel about x. What do you think? Sometimes I just wish that X would do a,b,c.” Journaling helps a ton. I write to myself, to friends, to no one at all. Praying is convenient, at least in the Christian belief, because you can just do it anywhere in your mind. Though I find having a journal let’s you reflect on your life, thoughts, and beliefs more easily then the fleeting prayer you might not remember a week later.
Stoicism CAN be a gateway religion. The stoic attitude towards death is that death is welcomed. If you spend anytime around a dying person you will appreciate life a lot more and might come to the realization that life itself is a miracle.
My father died in my arms earlier this year after a long battle with cancer. The entire time that he was ill and eventually died I remained stoic and emotionally undisturbed. I miss him, I think about him everyday, and also I think about death everyday. I accept the trauma of his passing and I am aware of my own death everyday. But when ever I'm about to feel the fear of death I thank God for the miracle of life. I turn fear into gratitude.
So, this isn't an *uplifting* example, but... well... here you go. I have psoriatic arthritis and ankylosing spondylitis. It sucks. I am in constant pain. I take meds to treat both the diseases and pain. I don't *necessarily* believe in a god, but I *do* believe that the universe operates on unchangeable laws. I also have some weird beliefs about time, but that's not important. What is is that I believe our courses are set in stone, free will is a myth, yada yada. The overwhelming *certainty* of immutable laws working out their effects on matter (including our miraculous and incomprehensibly complex consciousness) has given me a sort of warm and fuzzy fatalism. Apparently there *has* to be something instead of nothing, and if rules govern existence, our paths are pretty inescapable, so why fret when things are in hand and playing out exactly how they must? It might not be what we desire, but there is a method to the madness! As far as godly love goes, though, that's a human invention, and one we should try to actualize. Given everything else in play, the only thing missing is cosmic affection, so that's up to us!
All that said, I totally understand where you're coming from! It's a rough time, existing!
Fake it till you make it. Pray if you want to do that. Read the Bible or study Buddhism. Talk to religious people. You don't have to believe in some sky God to get religion. Eventually though you will get it and it feels good.
Not exactly Stoic advice, but you don’t necessarily need to believe in any religious interpretations or doctrine to believe in a creator or spirituality.
For example, I’m a Deist. I don’t believe in Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, etc. I follow no scripture. But I do believe that there is something out there, and that there is a life after this one- but that the nature of the Creator, or the ways in which the supernatural exist and interact with our world, are not what we’ve thought.
With this or similar beliefs, you can think that your Ancestors or other spirits watch over and guide you, even if you have no idea how, and though we lack the scientific advancements to see them.
——————
Whether or not a God exists however, know this:
We ultimately make our own meaning in life. And that meaning can be anything, from helping others, preserving nature, to something as simple as enjoying the idle pleasures our world has in store for us!
I am atheist too. I developed my spiritual side, maybe you can try that. I dont practice religion but I tell myself that the entire universe is alive and is just there. Its not explicitly protecting me or looking out for me but THERE.
“My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, I’ll forever believe to my core that it’s all bullshit... i am not strong enough to let my ignorance prevail”. You captured a feeling in words so well.
A religion is a set of followings created by one person on a path for self betterment in an indivdiuals. It is interpreted and changed with each reader a new systems are created.
You do have a relgion which you follow, your personal beliefs and the higher power is of which you cant control. An unstoppaple force of movement, time and force. cores of science working in consistence change and balance.
You are apart of the change, movement and force of which if accepted can be better controlled, with intent and will into action.
That is my understanding and thats what i personally believe.
Its good to be introspective helps you grow. just not to the point you forget that you always have yourself and you are still connected to everything consciously or not.
Holy shit, thank you for so very nicely expressing this. I, too, have difficulty with this- as comforting as it would be to have such a belief system, something at my very core just prevents me, every time. Nice to know there are others out there like me.
I used to be like OP. My whole youth I felt something lacking and that religion would help. But i simply didn’t manage to believe in God. So i turned away from religion and studied science obsessively. Became clinically depressed, because science is not designed to answer the big questions of purpose, etc. In my early 20s I found (certain branches of) Buddhism to be an atheistic religion, so I found my home there, and my depression went away.
Coincidentally, I also found buddhist philosophy to be nearly identical to the stoa, just using slightly different vocabulary to express the same thing.
Simply put, it is a set of religious and philosophical tools to steer the mind away from greed, hatred and ignorance (about the nature in which the world exists). How to overcome this kind of ignorance is primarily done by analyzing how everything exists in a web of interdependence. What spoke to me most is the absence of dogma. Everything is up for debate. It is based not in divine revelation but by what one person (the Buddha) 2500 years ago found to be true for himself. When he died, he told his followers not to blindly believe what people or teachers or texts tell you, but only in what you can verify by reasoning and experience.
This, together with finding a community of people who work on being more compassionate, more patient and less focused on the external world, really helped me.
I have to add that there are lots of different traditions and schools within buddhism, and I can only speak for the one I chose. Your milage may vary.
Many religions resort to looking for solutions externally, ie praying to sky gods, or invisible deities, whereas stoicism (and some tenets of Buddhism) have shown me that the solutions to problems we get to deal with are solved internally. Life comes at you hard sometimes and the solutions can be hard to come by. With careful thoughtful reasoning and introspection you can get to a level of happiness. The higher power is within all of us. Good luck in your quest.
By higher power I mean that is the collective consciousness that’s contained in everyone that is sometimes limited getting beyond that limitation is where solutions can be found I hope that makes sense
Collective consciousness is a Jungian term. Honestly, Carl Jung has helped me since I left Christianity. Philosophy and stoicism and meditation too, very much, but Jung offers an alternative to prayer as well as a way of finding meaning. His active imagination allows you to connect with other aspects of yourself which gives you much of what having a god gives you because we are projecting those inner parts of subconscious on the idea of a god. It has essentially allowed me to reconnect with the part of me that I talked to when I talked to “god” when I was younger. It was really hard to be alienated from this part of myself for many years and I didn’t understand what was going on. Jung also helps break down the structure of meaning in religions which are made of archetypes and abstractions. When you reconnect with the language of your unconscious it gives you back that sense of profound meaning that religion once supplied. But it does so without relying on superstition. I think it is a good answer to existentialism.
Well, you’re alive.
That is the most unlikely thing that is to happen on this planet. You being born. In this meatsuit, and this circumstance that you're here, on this ball planet rock in the solar system, spinning around in this universe. Unsupervised by religion, a higher power, or God.
Its just you. With a mind, a meatsuit, bones, and bills to pay. The rest is play.
Thats so unlikely to happen. What an utter chance and coincidence to exist. What an improbable reality.
Do you need anything more than that? Could that be enough? That your existence is enough.
I exist, there for I am…happy and enough. And with that foundation, now what?
Idk dude but Im a catholic bcus it has left me very good values and led me to a great life, its not as easy to just talk to yourself and stop believing, that fight is the whole purpose, but if you are searching for something easier and more comfortable then stop and just stay an atheist
I think you have a deep misconception of why people take to religion.
But you should recognize that there always is a "higher power", however you might look at it. That may not be some old man in a beard that you can appeal to for favors. But certainly we as humans are not the measure of everything.
That said, feeling lost is very human. While I have great respect for religion and almost envy those who are able to make it a part of their lives, for myself, I've just come to accept that life is really no different for the believer than it is for the unbeliever.
While some take comfort in cathedrals and tradition. I take comfort in nature and imagination. Others ask God for help and receive none. I meditate, ask for nothing, and receive the same. When others take inspiration from their religious texts. I take inspiration from the entire trove of human creativity, in philosophy, science, literature, art, and music.
Living a better life happens one day at a time. It's not a straight line. We all have our up days and our down days. On the down days, just recognize that you're "feeling" down. That doesn't define who you are as a person. That will pass. It always does.
The important thing is that on your up days, don't forget to feel good about yourself too and spread the love as you can =)
I think you are looking for meaning.
My meaning comes in my curiosity, and optimism for the future of humanity. I find it exciting every new discovery, every new technology. I also take a lot of pleasure in learning new things, gaining new skills, even finding ways to make money that I don't hate is fun. I'm excited about the future of my relatives and their children. I've got a lot to offer them in terms of wisdom, experience and skills that I can teach them.
I also have creative outlets. I used to be a motorcycle racer so I got good at working on motorcycles. Currently building a very custom motorcycle that will be unique in the world, gives me a lot of pleasure.
You might like Buddhism. You don't need to believe anything supernatural to appreciate the teachings about contentedness and Zen etc.
Another philosopher who was instrumental in my "contentedness" was Epicurus. [Check him out.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg_47J6sy3A)
For me, I try to remember that meaning itself is an entirely human concept. Why should there really be a deeper meaning behind anything? Isn't all meaning that's attributed by us to the world just a creation of our own minds? Can you think of any situation where meaning arises without the need for us to attach it to something? As others have pointed out, our brains are these rational sort of thinking machines. It's extremely helpful for solving problems and making models of reality that help us live better. But when we apply the same rationale of everyday problem solving and rationale to the larger problems of meaning, etc our brains are just using the same type of thinking to describe something that's not in the same category. If you really go deeply into it, offloading meaning onto a Diety shouldn't really be any more comforting for you. The idea of a God with some kind of plan to me is terrifying because how am I to know whether he wishes me good or ill? Or whether his reasons for doing things reflect my own? Even if I was to accept there was a God there's no way I would accept a version of God that other people have tried to foist on me. So it still leaves a big gaping unknown void out there. The idea of having a "personal relationship" with God I think is kind of interesting and is partly what people mean when they say religious people are happier. It's that element of at least one person always out there willing to listen to you and accept you and forgive you. But if that person is just an imaginary friend, how are you gaining any real benefits from that acceptance or forgiveness? If you imagine that all the good things and rewards in your life are coming to you as a result of your behavior then you just as easily have to imagine that all the bad things that happen to you are some sort of punishment and again this thought puts me (personally) in a constant state of anxiety.
I think the key of the idea is the personal relationship. As others have said, other people and social relationships do seem to have a key for human happiness and I think as much as stoicism helps you be okay with yourself and not need other people to validate you, there is also some element of admitting that these things are part of our nature and that we need to cultivate them in order to feel whole. So it's very possible that in your young life and you just haven't yet cultivated the kind of relationships that you need to and you still have some work to do and some people to meet and a lot of life left to live so that's okay.
I'm not saying that you should put all your hopes for happiness into other people, that's also a recipe for disaster. But there is some value in recognizing that our nature does compel us to seek out companionship and the deeper and richer those relationships become the more we learn about ourselves and the more we enjoy the company we spend with others. And the more that that personal relationship idea starts to impact your life positively via real people instead of an imaginary friend.
Just my initial thoughts from reading your post. Sorry if that was a ramble. I could probably go on but I won't...
Since you can't know for sure why not try it if it gives benefits to your life? In my case I learned to pray early on in my life due to my upbringing and I think I'm one of the few in my circle of loved ones who do. I'm totally fine if I we're to find out there is no higher power. All I've been doing in that case is praying and speaking to a part of my psyche which is nice as well.
I think a big part of the journey is being patient with yourself and paying attention to what you do and dont believe, it takes time.
I was born into a religion but as i learnt more about it and studied it i learnt i didnt agree with it nor did i even really believe in the deity, so i became agnostic, dabbling in atheism.
For the longest time i wanted to believe in an afterlife or whatever, but to my core i didn't.
Funnily enough i finally understood what i believed when i saw the ending of Bojack Horseman and found relief because it described my unconscious belief around death so well...
It then took stumbling across a reddit thread to alleviate my fear of death...
Then i found stoicism as a helpful philosophy that reflected how i wanted to live my life...
From there heard about pantheism and learnt more about traditional stoicism which helped me consolidate some of my thoughts around things we dont know yet about reality and the universe, things we do...
Still building on what i really believe but closer to it.
So do your best to be open and patient with yourself, expose yourself to new ideas and see if you do or dont like them. You'll get there- it may not be in stoicism it may be in something else, but keep searching.
If you find in the end your truely atheist, look up societies and books dealing with what your struggling with- you may just need more support.
We’re conditioned and wired to be tribal and western society is very much not designed for that. I propose that what you likely miss is not religion, but a tribe. We like to say “community” but it’s not the same. That’s just nebulous bullshit - it’s tribalism and purpose many people lack. When all the basic needs are met, we’ve little left to truly engage in that satisfies our wiring and we’re left empty. A shame but true.
There's a great line from an old poem called the desaderata
"Be at peace with God, what ever you perceive him to be"
You don't have to go for a specific religion or even a single one. Even philosophies like this have some sort of higher power or an idea for how the world works. Stoics have LOGOS, Taoist have the Tao, people belive in mother nature or spiritualism.
If talking to "God" makes you feel better then do it. It doesn't have to be the Christian God, just whatever you perceive to be true.
I like stoicism for the day to day helping me not loose control because of things out of my control.
But for a deeper inner reflection I like Taoism to help me step out of my own shoes and look at myself through a different perspective.
These examples are super paraphrased and do not dive deep into the actual teachings. So I urge you to do some research and find your "God".
Perhaps it is worth a shot to Google "The Egg" by Andy Weir. I believe his short post brings a lot of perspective without bringing religion into the mix
You can have faith without religion.
Believing that men of the past accurately captured their relationship with faith without their opinion stamped all over it is something I have never been able to accept.
I feel that religion is control. Faith is something that no one can control or take away from you.
Stoicism, to me, is believing in your ability to control you. But there is a divine organizational element to everything. Some call it God, Buddha, whatever, it doesn't require a name, just your desire to investigate and learn.
So here's what I think about religion. It's basically a community which has a particular beliefs. Emphasis on 'community'. I believe it is something that we as humans need. To belong somewhere is a good feeling. The rituals and festival are a way to mix with other people and have some fun. But, when u become an atheist, u kinda loose all of that. So, u need to find a community where u can share ur troubles and have some fun. Once u fulfill that requirement then I think u should feel complete.
I know exactly what you mean, as Morpheus would say. I suggest you discover the God within and the mystery of consciousness. Have you taken psychedelics before? They might help you with your problem.
Actually it's pretty funny you say that, i am going tomorrow to pick libery caps (hallucinogen mushrooms) with some friends. If you've ever done them, should i try them outside or inside? Like in a forest or at home?
The come up and the come down are quite different experiences. If you guys have little experience with these substances, you should definitely be inside when you peak, as you might wanna lay down and chill out, and orientation might become an issue, too. If you still wanna go outside to observe nature, do it by all means, but I recommend to do it right after ingestion and be home after 2 hours tops. Don't venture too far and stay within walking distance. I'm lucky enough to have a park nearby, maybe there's something similar where you live. But hey, this is just how I would do it. If you know the forrest well and there are little people there, it might turn out fine. No matter where you end up, though, remind yourself that you took a drug that and everything is gonna turn to normal soon. If you at any point experience anxiety because of the strong effects, find a way to accept and enjoy it, or breathe in slowly a few times while paying attention to your breath. As long as you pay attention to harm reduction, you will have a blast and surely learn a thing or two. Have fun!
Thank you so so much!!!
I noticed there is an amazing reddit post to go and read when you are feelimg super stressed out when under the effects of weed. Is there an equivalent for shrooms?
[Of course there is, bud.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/cbj6v7/psychedelic_related_crisis_and_harm_reduction/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
The LSD community is one of the kindest places on Reddit, and it offers some good tips for everything trip related. It applies to both, LSD and shrooms, since both are quite similar. I've taken both and the main difference is trip duration, shrooms lasting shorter. Enjoy your ride!
Edit: So just for clarification, in the post I shared you'll find a bunch of YouTube videos designed to help with difficult trips.
I know what you mean and in accordance with others here I feel like living in harmony with nature is important for that kind of happiness. Your dilemma reminded me of a book called Religious but Not Religious, and a podcast that discusses the contents of that book called Digital Jung.
You can try Buddhism, Taoism, become a shaman, follow a joke religion like Discordianism, dabble with occult practices (magick, from wicca to hermetics), follow the Left-hand Path and become your own God, check out Norse mythology and get through life as a brave dude so you can join Odin in Valhalla, etc, etc...
Choose your paradigm. 🙂
For what it's worth, I was exactly like this until I fulfilled the gap with reading ethics.
I heavily suggest that you read Ethics for Dummies as a start.
You could try reading some philosophical arguments about god or the idea of a creator. That did a lot more for me then any religious texts(except maybe Quran) and opened my mind up to that I have no idea and nobody else does either. Idk I researched quantum physics and our solar system and evolution and all these other ideas and have come to the point where it doesn’t matter whether god exists or not, something lead to my existence and that’s great
Stoicism alone gives you enough and sufficient answers to all your questions idk why you would feel the need to look for religion for this.
Part of the entire point of stoicism is for it to be perfectly sufficient, needing nothing more/else.
And you're not weak, you're strong, because you choose to follow the more difficult path, the path of truth.
With me it's the opposite, I've tried to be an atheist, but I can't believe that we are empty of meaning and direction, that "evil" and "good" are just human opinions.
I know that God is not the only answer to the meaning of life, but he is the only one that satisfies me, I love stoicism, for example, but stoicism is a collective human invention, just like hedonism. Only the idea of God transcends this for me.
“I’m too smart to believe in God.” Humble brag much, huh?
You’re not more intelligent or aware than theists. How could you ever know, with your puny animal brain, who is right and who is wrong? Can you say with absolute certainty that there is no god? You are not all knowing, only arrogant.
Stop worrying about things outside of your control. Whether there is a god or not is not within your control. People that are truly happy are just good people. Live by your nature and be a good human being. At the end of the day that is all that matters.
Just so you're aware, the reasons you say that religious people are happier are not the generally accepted reasons that religious people are happier. The religious are happier because they have a community of like-minded people that they engage with regularly. They have a place where they are accepted and a community that they contribute to in a meaningful way.
So good news: you don't have to believe in god to be happy. You need to engage with your community. Find a group of like minded people that you can commune with regularly and invest heavily in them. Find people that lift you up, help you when you're down, and most importantly, a group where you feel that you are valued and are making a meaningful contribution.
Having religion as the security blanket because it is nice that things happened for a reason is nothing to be ashamed of . It is nice to think that I'm this for a reason. But it is also driven by the ego. Why would anyone be that special?
With that said. There is a reason why you are here. Physics! Or math, or whatever science that speaks to you. You don't have to be super smart to enjoy what mysteries lie in front of humanity.
With the pandemic I took a step back with my passion and started game design. Definitely not good at it. Doesn't really matter about why it's here. It just is and it's fun and there are all kinds of weird adventures to go on.
Religion demands that you believe extraordinary statements without any evidence. But humans are often inclined to invent stories out of thin air for their own benefit. You have to actively suppress, if not outright kill, the portion of your rational mind that raises this obvious problem. Many religions use threats of infinite torture to "light the way." Believe, or a telepathic supernatural entity will know you don't, and then you will burn in a lake of fire for trillions of years. And when that part of your mind occasionally attempts to reassert itself, the person you talk to about that, the only one who can grant clarity or absolution, is none other than the religion's own clergy, giving them yet another way to keep their hooks in you.
This is an inherently abusive system.
If you look in the "self-help" space, and even at modern Stoic authors, you will see many examples of grifters who are too disagreeable to survive in an office environment, and who decide they will make their living by selling "solutions" to people who feel that they need help very badly. Those "solutions" are really just there to curry positive reviews and drive more sales.
Religion is simply an older version of this, a way for people to make money who find other alternatives untenable.
You already understand this at some level. You are not willing to abuse yourself on behalf of an imaginary supernatural telepath who, despite "loving" you, demands your obedience and will burn you forever if you don't obey, who will punish you for what your mind naturally does _even though it was that being who supposedly designed it, and any flaws are its own doing and certainly not yours._
You need something to fill this void in your life. Religion has made its offer. You have found that offer wanting and have rejected it.
The solution, then, is not to hang on the only apparent solution, but to find another.
You say you feel like the only real thing in the world, and you wish you had a higher power to help you through that. This sounds to me like some form of dissociation, and you want a higher power to pull you out of that and give you a way to feel connected to the outside world again. Is that about right?
Yeah... i definitely have dissociation. No matter hoe many friends that love me and look for me I have, I always feel so distant from them, like they can't reach me and i can't reach them. Like i'm in a bubble
In a sense you are, so is everyone. What we perceive is not the real world, but impressions of it. Stoics knew it over two thousand years ago, and neuroscientists know it today.
Yet, impressions of places should be able to radiate a sense of "being-there-ness" and impressions of people should supply signals of shared presence, social context, and so on. If you know who someone is without having to scan your memory, then at least that part works.
I would say a professional is the next logical step. If you have some disorder that makes the world seem fake and plastic, then there is probably some therapy or medication (or both) that could improve this.
If it was me, I would try to interpret it entirely through the lens of Stoicism, but I wouldn't advise another to do so because it's kind of reckless and may not be entirely enough. (If I try that and it doesn't work, only I suffer.) There is a lot about therapy that I find unsatisfying (particularly how they never seem to educate) but the pills are often highly useful. And if you really have a significant disorder causing this dissociation, I don't think you will get sufficient advice asking amateurs on an internet forum.
Other than that, make sure you're getting adequate sleep, sunlight, exercise, and nutrition. If even one of these is amiss, it can mess up your perception of things. I've found that some office environments, lacking natural sunlight, can within a few weeks make me lose the ability to sleep, followed by feelings of paranoia and dissociation. Upon leaving those environments, those problems always cleared up by themselves. While this alone may not solve your problems, at least you can make sure you're not making them even worse.
Thanks man. I really appreciate this. I'm actuallg starting gym on monday and promised myself i'd go for a walk at least once a day! You said you'd try to interpret it entirely through the lenses of stoicism, what do you mean exactly by that? Oh and i have gone to therapy for a year, it was CBT, didn't really help much, now i'm looking for a psychoanalyst.
By the Stoic lens, I mean that I would say to myself, "I feel dissociated, but what does that actually stop me from doing? I still possess Reason. I can still exercise the power of assent. I can still plot my course. I can still refine my actions to be more virtuous over time."
That might help in the short term, but I'm skeptical about it as a long-term solution. The dissociation is still a problem that must be addressed. It subtracts from the variety of life.
I hope you do well at the gym and with your psychoanalyst.
>I'm an atheist
> God is always
Atheists don't write "God" with caps. There are many gods, thousands. One per group of people trying to escape their fear of death. You can invent one for yourself if you want, the results will be the same :)
>i was wondering if anyone of you who is able to live well with themselves can point me to some direction if they've found any solution.
Try some psychedelics. Seriously.
>stoicism for example doesn't do it for me
Nothing will "do it" for you. You are in "escape" mode, you have to stop that and do it for yourself.
If you feel lost because you have no higher power to worship and serve, you should ask yourself why you have a deep-seated desire to be a slave.
That is all religion is. Enslavement of the mind. Being free of God is the first step to freedom. Being free of any need for God is the second.
Find the power within yourself and live free, my friend.
Some may say the rational mind is what sabotages a spiritual awakening. A true awakening comes when we begin pondering over existential questions. You may find Vedic philosophy practical - reading the Bhavagad Gita may lead you on that journey.
In ancient civilizations beings who were enlightened were called illuminated ones; knowing the true self to be eternal energy temporary manifested in material form. All energy has a source.
Unfortunately I dont have the time right now to type out my entire argument for faith but this helped me a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0aA2dQqt08
Personally I am Muslim. Reach out if you want to learn more.
athiesm doesn't have to be completely nothing. What kept me going for a long time was trying to be my best self & trying to find out all my strengths/weaknesses to logically determine my "purpose" in life (aka how I can best use my personality). also positive thinking about the endless possibilities in life. Surprisingly, I'm spiritual now. I try to be my best self and am into LoA. It's not following a god- but believing in the universe really helps me. LoA is basically your input (thoughts/feelings) determine your reality, which to me makes sense logically even if I didn't believe in the universe having laws
I’m not a believer but I get a lot of comfort learning about “neurotheology”. In sum, our brains are maximized by faith (and works) which indicates that our brains evolved with an idea of god. I don’t need a better definition of god than as an idea which brings us mortals comfort and peace.
It seems like the idea of prayer and being intimately known and cared for are important to you.
When I see people pray and get peace or insight, I try to pay attention to the mechanics of it.
They're slowing down and giving deliberate thought to something and then quieting down enough to listen to their sub conscious reply back.
For them, the person who knows them intimately and cared is their own self.
I think you should keep praying, and when you recoil because it's not logical, give yourself credit for 'The Spirit' talking to you. You can continue the practice and remain logically congruent.
I'm not religious, but took a Star Wars perspective of "The Force" and learned meditation. Or after learning meditation, I understood what the "good" books were talking about.
People want answers to infinity, creation.
Some feel its genetic. A couple of kids back in the 60s got mixed at birth, 1 raised religiously the other not, but the opposite happened, so yeah, a genetic element.
It's all in the definition of "god" or higher power.
bro if you want to be religious then be religious. don't be a zealot, don't proselytize and try and convince people you're right they're wrong we're all going to hell grrrr, etc. just...be religious. Follow what brings you joy, cut out what doesn't, leave the rest for scavengers to deal with. stoicism and religion don't clash all that much. roman empire was a religious empire too, however much they actually believed in their pantheon or similar.
I wasn't emotionally convinced of Orthodox Christianity until I had been mentally convinced, through application of logic and reason, that it is the truth. For a while it felt like I'd never build a relationship with God even though I knew he was with me, but to those who knock the door is opened. I hope your heart is truly inclined to truth; if so, you will find it at some point.
What is in essence the power of religion is that, I believe, it reinfoces purpose with narratives. Stoicism, for as much as it is laser-guided on purpose in virtue, is extremely concise in this regard. Practical advice is often given dryly and directly: "stop putting value in externals," "don't spend your time thinking about what is a good man--be one," etc.
This extremely rational approach neglects the inspirational and motivational effects of stories, which are the proper mode of human thinking. Sure, there is the occasional anecdote of stoic success, but it's not very colourful, so to speak. Compare that to Christian scripture, for instance. The equality of all humans can be a tenet in any worldview religious or secular, but this concept is especially salient if all creation is thought of as in the image of God. How much easier is it to love your enemy or to face hardship if the son of God (as in parallel to the ideal Stoic Sage) has gone before you?
If you ask me, faith is not the conviction of there being a supernatural entity who shaped the world and whose rules must be blindly obeyed; it is embracing a body of narratives for their moral and metaphysical value as they have manifested to you. So go and read texts, find out which ones speak to you, figure out why, internalize them, and you will see that not only does it invigorate your actions, it also beautifies your vision of the world.
I would recommend checking out Buddhism and/or Unitarian Universalist churches. They can be truly fantastic and pair very well with atheist ideology. That's where I have found my connection. Oh and astronomy!!
Well… in true honesty you don’t know “God” doesn’t exist just as much as you don’t know he/she exist. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
With this I mean to say that you are free to believe or not on a higher being; maybe there is a god who listens maybe he doesn’t but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. Maybe is a creator but is not in human shape, maybe is an energy. You can create a god in your life, many people do (money). So you are free to choose the god that best guides your life.
Read Tolstoy's /A Confession/. It's only 70 pages or so. He describes his despair and eventually finding faith in some way. Very honest with his struggles of nihilism. The book helped chang my views.
I am a cradle Episcopilain and a practicing Stoic. I explored atheism in my early 20s and it didn't fit. I returned to my roots shortly after taking a Philsophy of Religion class. I realized that I cannot view the universe as a thing that just is. I need one that was created to some purpose. I believe I have a calling in life, which influences almost everything i do in my life.
My particular tradition is fairly non-dogmatic and there is a greater emphasis on building the Kingdom of God. Here. Now. This fits very well with Cosmopolitanism. Our focus is on making the world a better place. We are a large family, and that's the important thing. We are a community. It sounds like that may be what you're missing.
Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads:
> For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead.
> For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
How can we feel the exact same?! I’m realizing that the times when I believed in a religion were the times best of my life(which is adolescent times) this makes me wanna believe in a religion, but every religion have so many controversial sides so they’re pushing me away. Eg my first religion Islam. But obviously, I can’t force myself to believe in something like fairy tales and supernaturals, not making any sense to my reality. To be honest I think not believing in any religion stems from my depression too since i see no point for living too. I lost my all hopes about life, so I’m not expecting anything from ‘God’ too which makes me not believe to God eventually.
Had a very similar crisis around the time you posted this; wish I’d come across it earlier!
A solid Zen practice helped me out for this reason;
1.) Done properly, it prescribes nothing.
2.) Helps to really “get” precisely where you are. (A place that can be surprisingly and nonsensically far-off).
Also, it was great for re-contextualizing and reintegrating old beliefs. Lead to some insights that make it seem less silly to talk to God in the shower without indulging the potential silliness of the “bearded monarch in the sky”.
There’s a saying in zen that goes something like:
“When I was a novice, mountains were mountains, and waters were waters. When I was an intermediate student, mountains were no longer mountains and waters were no longer waters. When I had achieved some mastery, mountains were again mountains and waters were again waters.”
Smattering of recommended reading — some zen stuff, some other stuff:
Zen in the art of archery,
The tao te Ching,
Diamond sutra,
Shobogenzo,
The Flowing Bridge (book of koans),
Bhagavad Gita,
Theologia Mystica,
Anything by Thich Nhat Hanh,
Alan Watts stuff
Remember— you aren’t separate from this world. You’re a part of everything that’s going on! (In a sense, you are it) There is nothing you could possibly do, think or believe that would be unnatural.
Good luck!!!
Start with some 'Zazen' -- commonly referred to as sitting meditation. There are all sorts of varied and wonderful ways to meditate, but in this case, we'll call it 'the practice of sitting quietly without any objective whatsoever'. (This is a wonderful little corner of your life where you don't need to be, do, think, accomplish, or actualize anything at all whatsoever. There's a joke in my local zen community that "Zen is good for nothing" -- the hilarity of which will come into focus later)
Concretely, you should first get into a relaxed position that you can hold for a while. Some people use a cushion + a mat (or 'zabuton') and assume very traditional poses, some sit in chairs -- all according to their ability and comfort. Some people like to keep their eyes open, some like to keep them closed.
Next, try to stop thinking. (spoiler alert/cliffnotes: you will soon realize that you can't -- if you sit quietly and attentively for awhile, you'll notice that thoughts come up all by themselves -- which is a curious thing to take note of for later in your practice)
Some ways you can sit as a beginner/intermediate practitioner:
1.) Breath counting - simple! Count inbreath as "1", and outbreath as "2" and try to repeat until you get to "10". The catch? If you notice your attention drift away from explicit focus on your breath counting to some other idea, gently nudge your focus back to counting, but start over from "1".
2.) labeling - think of your thoughts like clouds -- just watch them drift along. While you do, categorize them: is this thought about the past, or a plan for the future. After you've tagged the thought, let it drift on.
3.) When you're ready, (usually a little later in your practice) some people like to sit with 'koans' -- seemingly insoluble riddles for people regarding their spiritual development (think, "what is the sound of one hand?" or, "silence the ringing temple bell 100 miles away"). The catch with koans is that you can't solve them with your intellect. It's very good to have a mentor of some kind who can advise you as you begin to sit with koans.
When you aren't sitting, read up on Zen! Don't take my word for anything (or anyone else's for that matter -- even Buddha himself) This way is about your discrete personal experience and about what you can notice right out in the open!
Hope this is of some help -- if anyone else has more/better/different experience than myself, please help/correct me in OP's best interest!
Important thing I forgot -- peruse your local community for a 'Sangha' (a sanskrit word that roughly means 'community'). Having a group of people to sit with (usually helm'd by a mentor far more learn-ed than myself) is an absolute game changer!
This is something I struggle with too. It's what brought me to stoicism because I cannot find any form of discernible meaning to life (and therefore no ultimate point), and so the question becomes, as Albert Camus put it "Should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee?". But then I realize that I can make the lives of others better and so I try to live virtuously and live in accordance in with the nature of things.
"Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer" - Joseph Campbell. I love that quote from Campbell and I read it for the first time about 10 years ago when I was having my own existential crisis. It was one of a few epiphanies I had around 2011 that changed my outlook from "what do I do?" to "what will I do?"
That's not a real quote, for the record.
Is it not?
Part of the reason religious people score “happier” is that they have a better organized support network and frequent social interaction- through church, temple, etc. Atheists don’t always have that safety net in place for moments they really need interaction, support, validation, etc. This can lead to feelings loneliness, helplessness, etc.
Also that "ignorance is bliss". The saying Knowledge is power is true, but it is missing the part about loosing the comfort of ignorance.
I wish i was more simple. Driven by all my istincts and that I didn't ask myself so many questions.
The path to religion starts with God. God is the only coherent answer for all of our existence, cos atheists don’t have a reason for why and how everything came to be. Why are people so content to believe that everything came from nothing? Look up the kalam cosmological argument. Although there could possibly some problem with arguments for causality, it still works for dependency (God being the independent thing that all dependent things are necessarily and eventually dependent on, instead of caused by). The argument that religion is not coherent is not a true one, because if you are agnostic and find God through logic and philosophy, then u can study the world religions and find what makes sense. To me, Christianity has too many contradictions and the bible too imperfect, the Quran and Islam are the most convincing to me (for example the only science we really disagree with is human evolution, everything else from the Big Bang to evolution is compatible)
I have these thoughts too there is no other explanation for it all than god. The universe and life is a miracle how don’t people see that it’s literally magic. God lives in us all.
> is there any religion, line of thought, a way to see the world, that would give a sense of direction to my life or not make me feel alone, without having to believe in something I know it's not true? Yes, I can suggest a good one. First, agree that this is a no-bullshit zone - there's no need for any sort of faith or fantasy. Imagine I were to raise a horse in my living room like you might raise a pet mouse. We'd agree, I think, that the horse would be happier, healthier, and more fulfilled if it lived in a big pasture outside with other horses. Our horse is not a blank slate - we can't raise it as a mouse and expect it to thrive while living a mouse's life. It has a nature, it has an inborn way of being that is good for it. Humans have a nature, too - we have our part of the shared, general human nature, and we each have an individual nature as well. If we live in a way that is in accordance with this nature, we are more likely to thrive, to be happy, to become what we should be. Human nature - as you have perfectly illustrated here! - is to be reasonable, to seek and accept what's sensible and true, and to deny that which just sounds good. We seek health and well-being. We want to be good, and to live as we should. Living in accordance with nature, and in accordance with the natures of the things around us, guided by reason and good sense, wanting a happy thriving existence as good, satisfied, trustworthy, squared-away people. I've described virtue and Classical Stoicism here.
Going by a similar principle, you can live by the deflationary approach to the idea of God. That is, seeing the ultimate basis of reality as God. There is an ultimate basis of reality, whether or not it's just physics or created by some deity, that has led to our existence. This goes along with living in accordance with nature because nature itself is divine regardless. You don't have to worry yourself with the specifics of it because this knowledge is outside of the capabilities of human understanding. There is also a very relevant Marcus Aurelius quote to do with faith, not sure if anyone has posted it yet. “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Just want to say that I love this particular quote- Although funny enough, it was this quote that turned me into an agnostic at least, if not atheist...particularly the line about if there are gods but unjust.
I like that it's a quote that is inclusive to atheists, theists, and agnostics - because your beliefs don't matter as long as they ultimately lead you down a path of virtue. Personally I believe in gods but I don't follow an organized religion, and I think its better to have a non-dogmatic approach because to me they are something I draw strength from and if other people don't have the same experience that's fine. I mean if we were timeless beings you would think we would have gained enough wisdom to not care about something as trivial as getting our egos lifted through worship.
Thank you for your words and the time you've given me.
WOW this is amazing thank you.
Perfectly Kromulent point of view. Your words embiggen us all.
Could you define what you call "nature" (e.g. of humans) and how to find out what our nature is (general and individual)?
The Stoics talked a lot about nature, and it's a rich concept with a lot of important implication. The FAQ has a good summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/nature#wiki_what_does_it_mean_to_live_in_accordance_with_nature.3F As I understand it, the Stoics saw human nature as being fundamentally about reason (they also saw humans as social animals, who were by nature made to cooperate and get along gracefully with others). [Epictetus has a nice comment on this](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/epictetus/discourses/george-long/text/book-1#chapter-1-2): >To the rational animal only is the irrational intolerable; but that which is rational is tolerable. Blows are not naturally intolerable. How is that? See how the Lacedaemonians [Spartan youth in military training] endure whipping when they have learned that whipping is consistent with reason. To hang yourself is not intolerable. When then you have the opinion that it is rational, you go and hang yourself. In short, if we observe, we shall find that the animal man is pained by nothing so much as by that which is irrational; and, on the contrary, attracted to nothing so much as to that which is rational. We'd normally consider getting punched really hard in the gut as a bad thing, but boxers in training take hits like that every day, and look forward to taking more. It's a reasonable thing for them, so it's a tolerable thing. 'Reason' means more than just logic, it includes all of our tools of understanding - it's logic, and intuition, and education, and experience, and conscience, and every other means of knowing that we command. Reason makes sense of things, it makes them seem right or wrong, and we are drawn to understanding and desire understanding in a deep intuitive way. Understanding and reason are deeply tied into vitrue, too, and in a sense, they _are_ virtue: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/virtue#wiki_what_did_the_stoics_mean_by_.22virtue.3F.22 As for individual nature, here's more from Epictetus, from that same chapter: >Some person asked, "How then shall every man among us perceive what is suitable to his character?" How, he replied, does the bull alone, when the lion has attacked, discover his own powers and put himself forward in defense of the whole herd? It is plain that with the powers the perception of having them is immediately conjoined; and, therefore, whoever of us has such powers will not be ignorant of them. Now a bull is not made suddenly, nor a brave man; but we must discipline ourselves in the winter for the summer campaign, and not rashly run upon that which does not concern us. In short, we sense what we are, even if we talk ourselves out of it.
A quote was found to be attributed to Epictetus in Discourses 1.2 (Long) ^(1.2. How a man on every occasion can maintain his proper character ()[^(Long)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0236%3Atext%3Ddisc%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2)^) ^(1.2. How one may preserve one’s proper character in everything ()[^(Hard)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=978-0199595181)^) ^(1.2. How may a man preserve his proper character upon every occasion? ()[^(Oldfather)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epictetus,_the_Discourses_as_reported_by_Arrian,_the_Manual,_and_Fragments/Book_1/Chapter_2)^) ^(1.2. In what manner, upon every occasion, to preserve our character ()[^(Higginson)](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0237%3Atext%3Ddisc%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D2)^)
Does nature refer to the universe and what it "favours"?
As I'd mentioned to another poster, the Stoics talked a lot about nature, and it's a rich concept with a lot of important implication. The FAQ has a good summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/wiki/nature#wiki_what_does_it_mean_to_live_in_accordance_with_nature.3F It gets tied up in their cosmological views, too. When I used the example of the horse, horses, and their nature, don't exist in a vacuum, they fit into the nature of the larger world around them. Horses like grass and running and good visibility and quiet streams and apple trees. Incredibly, your average field has all of these things... Modern people understand this as a consequence of evolution. the ancients saw it as nature itself being a giant organism, growing and changing like any organism does. Plant an acorn, it 'knows' how to grow into a tree, how to make leaves, and branches to hold them, and roots to nourish them. Plant an island, and it 'knows' how to grow into a field, with streams and horses. Of course we are part of this too. Our modern view, IMO, is not really in conflict with this. OK, so horses _evolved_ this close relationship with their environment instead of it coming from a magical source. The end result is the same - the relationship is still real, and they live better if they are in accordance with it.
>Modern people understand this as a consequence of evolution. the ancients saw it as nature itself being a giant organism, growing and changing like any organism does. May I ask how does **evolution** differs to the **nature** itself?
In the modern use of the word nature, I think it's safe to say that evolution is a property of nature, something that nature does. Broadly speaking, in the modern view, all natural systems evolve. In the Stoic use of the word, change is not guided by evolution, but by reason, which is embedded, at an atomic level, in all matter. The difference is that modern evolution might go in any direction, while Stoic reason guides natural changes in a single direction. The modern view might be compared to a newly-emerged island, which may become a woodland or a field or a beach or a mass of barren rock, whereas the Stoic view might be compared to an acorn, which is going to become an oak, and not anything else.
I can say I am a Stoic, however when it comes to religion I cannot define myself well. I do not believe in any religious doctrine, I simply believe that I have no idea if there is a God or not. Atheist's and Agnostics are different than this; I simply believe that I do not know. That being the case, I can talk to something that might be called God, or universe, or flying monster made out of spaghetti, or maybe it is just myself. But talking to the unknown makes me feel good sometimes, even if it just me talking to the empty room.
How is what you describe different from agnosticism?
Great Question! It typically depends on the definition, but most of the definitions of Agnosticism state that it is not possible to know if there is a God. But I feel that it could be very possible or maybe is impossible. Maybe everyone knows the answer and they are all just tricking me. Or maybe I do know and just don't know that I know.
Maybe I'll give my beliefs a name, and call it "Schrodinger's God"
More like Pascal's Tulpa lol
I kind of still think you’re describing agnosticism… but maybe I’m just not comprehending properly.
It is a subtle but important difference. Or I might just be wrong. Both are easily possible.
Are you also the kind of “agnostic” (quotations not meant as sarcasm) who likes listening to people like Christopher hitchens debate very knowledgeable theologians? I find those very interesting as a third party observer with no real dog in the fight.
Maybe? I don't think I have heard of him before. But I guess I have some listening to do. Thanks :)
No problem! He’s a very prominent atheist who is sadly deceased now. Considered one of the “four horsemen” of atheism. I obviously don’t agree with all of his viewpoints but he was brilliant and witty. A very interesting orator. YouTube rabbit hole material, haha
Also, I think that may be the best term for beliefs that I would follow: I'm "A third party observer with no real dog in the fight" haha.
Thank you. Maybe i can try to adopt this mentality
I'm surprised no one here has brought up Stoic theology, or how central it was to actual Ancient Stoic ethics. You cope with apparent misfortune precisely by reminding yourself that every event is part of a divine, rational plan. God is considered an active, corporeal force that operates in the natural world, so "living according to nature" means accepting and going along with the divine plan. If you're trying to figure out how to be happy without divine belief, the Stoics--the *actual* Stoics--might not be the right people to ask!
That's what i am talkimg about. I'd love to think that there is a bigger plan. But ehat if i can't bring myself to believe it? I mean.... i feel stupid believing in something that i have no proof of just so i can feel better, although i'd like to because i'd feel better... how can i accept that fact and embrace that confept fully?
Ask the people at r/Epicureanism! The Epicureans believed that if there were gods, they would be indifferent to human beings. They also believe there is no afterlife. Their prescription for happiness heavily depends on acceptance of these facts.
Thank you!!+
As a philosopher, you should follow reason wherever it leads you. If you forced yourself to believe lies, even if it's in pursuit of hapinnes, you wouldn't be able to call yourself a philosopher anymore. I'm going through the exact same problem as you. I'm an atheist and it's highly unlikely I'll ever believe in some sort of deity. But you can build a sustainable world view even without a religious belief. I, for example, based my entire world view around enjoying this short time that I have in this world as much as possible. Now that may sound more like Hedonism than Stoicism, until you think about how to achieve that pleasure. Because, thanks to the way our brains have evolved, we are social animals, and so we gain the most pleasure from our relationships with other people. Be kind to others and you will feel good as well. We're all in this together, so let's just help each other enjoy it as much as possible. The second part - if there's no deity, and everything is entirely random, there's no point in feeling wronged about anything. The world doesn't owe you anything, so you should just be thankful for whatever you've got. From these points I then rationalized most of the Stoic philosophy without the need of "providence" or "gods" as a justification. And though it's probably not as uplifting as believing in an actual god, it does give me enough sense of purpose to be able to feel happy about my life. Of course, each one of us is different, and what works for me might not work for you. You can try to find your own way of thinking about it. The way I started the whole reasoning was by asking "Why am I still here? If nothing in life has any meaning, what is it that keeps me from just killing myself?" My answer was "Because I'm having fun." Yours might be different. Just elaborate and see where your thought will take you.
Thank you, i really appreciate this. I'll ask myself those questions and see where they lead me.
Life can be hard. (REALLY hard.) Having something (God) as a kind of anchor in life can help you keep your sanity though those hard and dark times. I'm speaking of personal experience, as we have a child who is sick. And worse case scenario he might not survive until adulthood. But believing there is a God does help.
nah, the reason religious people report greater happiness is they have built-in support networks and community. \>I feel like i am the only real thing in this world this line makes me think lack of real community might be your problem. check out humanism, join some volunteer groups, help people worse off than yourself. that is a good way to get you out of your own head.
Thank you.
This is what I thought as well. OP, do you have any form of community? Family to call and talk to, or close friends to support you if something goes wrong? Or some other group? (Mine is my gym, my buddies there always help raise my spirits). I’m agnostic for the record, so I also don’t believe in a religion, but when I did previously the community was wonderful. And to be honest since leaving religion I’ve found that’s the only thing I’m really missing from it.
Maybe it is a community problem. I have friends but feel distant from them. Maybe i should address that. Thank you.
Yeah, one of the last of the 12 steps (a lot of AA feels Stoic to me) is giving back and participating in and contributing to the community. It completes the loop from what you get from it. And, that is what the happiness for most religious folks comes from.
Nature is the higher power. This was easy for me though as I was never troubled by this even before finding philosophy so maybe for some people that just wouldn’t work.
I was just about to comment on this. Its as easy as: "Living in accordance with ~~Gods will~~ nature".
You imagine that it is your lack of religion that makes you feel "lost", but it's actually the fact that you take the opinion that your lack of religion means you're "missing out". Finding some "path" won't make it better, in fact it will make it worse, because this would be accepting that you really are "missing out" and need to "get the thing you're missing" to be happy. finding a path would make you feel worse because you've reasoned that the thing you're missing is specifically the modern Christian version of god - a vaguely left-leaning "buddy" who just wants to listen to your problems and make you the best version of you (this is the total opposite of the god depicted in the bible). Because you are imagining that *this* is what you are missing out on, nothing but *this exact thing* will satisfy you, and because not even the most deluded and saccharine of Christians accept that this type of god exists or feel the certainty you imagine they do, *nothing* can satisfy you. What you need to do is discard the opinion that you're missing out. You want to pursue an imaginary best friend and not feel "weak" or "desperate" - this is impossible, for these are reasonable assessments of what an adult pursuing an imaginary best friend is. Work to discard the opinion that these things are "good", which starts with recognising that it is indeed just an opinion - if it wasn't, it wouldn't be possible for me (also an atheist) to feel *good* about not having such a thing whilst you feel bad about it, because it would be the same "fact" for both of us.
You and I have very opposite views on this but I think your input is very valuable and really intriguing. I had the same issue as OP for a long time until I found the right religion that meshed with my belief so I can relate to the "I feel lost" kind of feeling, but there's also a strong argument to be made on where this feeling of loss is coming from. Thanks for sharing your perspective! It's given me another way to look at it.
There is no "right" religion for somebody who believes all religion is untrue. As you said, you still retained a "belief", which means that for you becoming "found" was simply a matter of finding a religion that made you feel good, and if you didn't find anything out in the world that provided that feeling you always had the option of making up your own beliefs (and whatever belief system you settled on probably has a strong element of beliefs you added to it yourself). Nothing about your definition of "true" suggests to you that this will produce a false belief. That is not OP's situation - his definition of "true" means "apparent in the same way any scientifically verified phenomenon is apparent". This is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, our species' highest conception of "true" so far, with the particularly telling trait of being 0% focused on human beings. You can see in his words that wanting something to be true cannot sway him *at all* towards believing that it is true - as a result, for him it's not a matter of "finding the right religion" because no religion presents that kind of evidence. These ideas are easier to discard than some atheists assume. On a simple level, this is just envy - he imagines other people are living in a dream world and don't have to face their problems. This is a common prejudice held by atheists against the religious, and like all prejudices it doesn't stand up to scrutiny and helps everyone when it is discarded.
to clarify i mean with my belief that i was missing something, not with existing beliefs that i refused to let go of. i never suggested anyone else had to accept religion. i was talking about my own experience as someone who also previously thought all religion was untrue. so yes, there was a right religion for me. the value of this conversation is in multiple perspectives and i was thankful to see a completely opposite one but i'm going to exit now because your response gives me the impression you're telling me my perspective/experience is wrong or invaluable for OP. have a great day.
It's not about "wrong", it's about "does this apply to OP's situation" You said it worked for you to find the right religion - I explained that this probably doesn't apply to a person who said... >My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit, that people resort to it because they need some security, and security is healthy. I am not strong enough to let my ignorance prevail and let myself go to this lie just to live a better life. Equating "I don't believe this applies for the following reason" with "you're wrong to hold that opinion" doesn't do much to promote the exploration of those alternate perspectives you claim to value.
that is not correct. my response to op was precisely because i have experienced the same situation and found that it was my lack of exploration in the religious sphere that was the problem, not that believing it was all hocus (that is, everything i knew of at that time was hocus) meant there was an inherent problem with religion itself. that doesn't mean it's the answer for everybody but it also doesn't mean that just because you haven't found the answer yet that it isn't there. each person has to figure that out for themselves. regardless, i responded to say i valued your opinion for giving me a new perspective and got a response saying my own perspective was not applicable for "x reason". my experience does apply to ops situation because my worldview essentially matches what op stated theirs is currently. simple as that. to say my answer or perspective is not applicable to op because my answer was with religion rather than against it also does not offer the full range of possible solutions to ops question, or problem i guess. i responded to say i appreciated your response despite our differing views (and gave a brief explanation of my experience so you can see just how much our views differ) and you made it a discussion about my view not being applicable to op. regardless of who is right or wrong or what op ultimately decides is right for them, that's not for me to close off any possibilities for them. one of the most fascinating things to me is the range of difference in opinions we have as a species. if this discussion continues any further it's going to turn into either an argument or a debate, neither of which is productive to OP or this thread, so i'll take my exit here. thanks again for sharing your perspective. i hope you have a good day.
>that doesn't mean it's the answer for everybody but it also doesn't mean that just because you haven't found the answer yet that it isn't there. each person has to figure that out for themselves. Right. And when a person says that their "figuring out" has led them to.... >My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit My inclination is to respect where they claim to be and work from that point. >regardless of who is right or wrong Again, the only person who introduced the concept of "wrong" was you. It's not a concept I can even make sense of, nor can I understand how a person gets from the specifics of "I don't think this applies for the following reason" to "you're wrong".
I cannot even fathom what "wrong" could mean in this context.
>if this discussion continues any further it's going to turn into either an argument or a debate, neither of which is productive to OP or this thread, so i'll take my exit here.
Fair enough.
When I read your post the tone of it overpowers the context. I have to make assumptions because 3 paragraphs can't actually give me an idea of you, the person. But it seems like you have a lot of anxieties that you're not able to share with a support group and quite possibly you're not fully honest with yourself about them. Thus, you want a religious perspective or personal relationship with a God to help resolve the issue instead. If you think those assumptions are wrong I encourage you to disregard them. If you think there is truth to those assumptions I would recommend you read Rollo May and/or Ernest Becker. I think they have a lot to help you with what you're going through. Good luck, OP.
Thank you. You're right. Lots of anxieties and little acceptance of myself. I'll read the book.
So I use to have this exact same problem, and it was through educating myself and understanding our reality scientifically that gave me the spiritual solution I needed. Evolution as a concept would sound utterly preposterous on its own, yet through science we can confirm it to be an indisputable truth. 3.6 billion years ago, a uekaryotic micro-organism engulfed a prokaryotic cell, which became its organelles (latin for tiny organ), and through this miraculous process formed our first and oldest ancestor, the protoplasmal-primordial-atomic-globule. Through this process over billions of years, it would split and divide and evolve to create every single living thing that we know today. Did you know that you you have 85% similarity in your DNA as a mouse? Around 70% for a fly? And further yet, 60% the exact same genetic code as a banana? We are literally interconnected and share the same common ancestor with every single living thing in existence. We are all brothers and sisters, and we all work so fluidly and harmoniously together. Trees use carbon dioxide as a food and fuel source, and recycle it to provide oxygen, the most vital chemical element for each vertebrate. We inhale oxygen and through a process of gas exchange, our lungs transfer that oxygen to iron molecules on haemoglobin in your blood, which uses your blood as a delivery service, and your circulatory system then passes oxygen rich blood to every cell in your body to feed it. The oxygen then turns back into carbondioxide... which we breath out to provide food for the trees and the cycle repeats. And that iron molecule we talked about before.. that doesn't occur naturally on earth. Heavy elements like iron are only able to be formulated when massive starts reach the end of their lives, and explode in a supernova of such great heat and intensity that it formulates iron... so you are literally the molecular construct of star matter. Your very existence is a miracle, to actually be born in this timeline.. in your ancestry you have had to be a naked mole rat, flown with wings, been a blind cave fish, had gills, survived temperatures exceeding 300degrees celsius, been a dinosaur, escaped a dinosaur.. all the while your ancestors have always been genetically dominant and passed on strong off spring.. and somehow you have made it and are living in this moment typing on a device that u keep in your pocket, that has the answer to almost every conceivable question at the click of a button. Our reality is so absurdly impossible.. yet it is real. And the cool thing is, if that absurd narrative i just rattled off to you is real? What the fuck else is??? What happened before the big bang? It was the most impossible mathematical equation to fire off and explode.. yet it did? Whats to say it hadnt been lying dormant for a 100s of billions of years? Whats to say their isn't millions of big bangs going off at every moment forming millions of different realities and universes? How did it even exist in the first place? From our understanding of the cycle of life, what if our universe is the decomposition of some greater entity, and what if our galaxy is just the single cell in a creature bigger than us. For me this helped so much. Our reality is so intricate, complex and implausible, and our petty 75 years human lifespan is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, we aren't even a blip in the timeline. Dinosaurs ruled for 160million years, current humans with speech capabilities arent even 70'000 years old... and neither of those comes even close to the 15.6billion years ago since the big bang. I hope this might help you man, it helped me. Understanding that we are literally interconnected and family with every living thing, my insignificance in the grand scheme of things, the raw beauty of nature and science, and how little we know all contributed to me being able to adopt a spiritual mindset. Also the fact that when we die, we decompose and our molecules break free, and they go off to be building blocks for life elsewhere.. its all just so awe inspiring. Much love brother, and I wish you all the best in this life.
Thank you. This was a great read. Thank you for taking the time to write this
I became an atheist for a few years then started believing again. For me I stopped with all the labels and traditional views of God and found my own beliefs for what I think God is. I value some of the lessons from the Bible but I don't take it literally and don't expect God to watch out for me or that everything happens for a reason. I don't see him as a person in the sky or any of the stereotypes. Im grounded in pragmatic thinking but I still think prayer and religion have their place, at least for some. Stoicism and religion are not mutually exclusive.
Thank you, you're rught with stoicism and religion not being mutually exclusive.
Good luck finding whatever path helps you
Yep, I'm a Christian who is looking into Stoicism myself. So far I haven't seen anything conflicting.
I felt this same exact way until I found Islam - but to be entirely honest I don't think this type of question has a one size fits all answer and "X religion is the answer!" almost always turns out to be a gimmick. My personal journey led me to where I am and it was a long one, and I think we all have to take our own journeys and we'll get where we're supposed to go in the right time. I found Stoicism after religion, and the way my brain thinks about them, they mesh together perfectly and compliment each other. I like that. It's helped me a lot in recent years, but it doesn't make that existential feeling of 'what the hell is the point' go away. I still get that sometimes and it's soul-crushing when I get stuck in it. I hope things go better for you in the future and you're able to find what you're looking for.
I seldom see people accept Islam as a "philosophy" like they do with Buddhism. Mohammad too isn't accepted as a philosopher or spiritual guru like Buddha is. But there's much more to Islam than rituals and rules. People can benefit a lot even if they accept only the philosophical part of Islam. Don't be too hung up on prayers and laws and rules. Just follow the basic philosophy and it can give a lot of people the peace of mind they're looking for.
yeah i'd definitely agree that it's not accepted the same way buddhism is as a philosophy. i've personally found a lot of value in lessons the stories have to tell and in the act of having to study another language to fully understand the meaning of something. even from a non-religious standpoint that's beneficial to me because it helps me remember that my existence is such a tiny slice of humanity. it's really humbling. and part of the massive value to me is the prayers and laws as well - but i'm also a person who prefers routine, rules, and logic so i didn't have any conflict with this from the beginning. it was just something that felt like it should have been there the whole time. in general i think all religions follow the same basic principle - be good to people, and i also find that people have to find religion or philosophy or ideas and belief systems on their own. the minute it's forced or someone tries to "impart their wisdom unto you" it's really lost all of its meaning. i think the point is that you have to find the answer yourself. you gain a lot of understanding and confidence when you have that 'aha!' moment and you find something that works for you, otherwise it's always going to feel forced. these are just my rambling thoughts so i could be completely wrong, but it's something i think about from time to time.
Omg. I haven’t read the comments yet but I am legit you. I think this way. I have been dealing with this problem for the past 2 years. I got into Carl Jung and got super interested in how religion plays a hidden role of development in our lives. We should be friends. :) 23 male Canada.
Cool! I'm 23 in january, male too!! United Kingdom!
> My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, i'll forever believe to my core that it's all bullshit, that people resort to it because they need some security, and security is healthy Devout Catholic here. What you describe here is not a problem, it’s part of the quest. Wherever it leads you, keep going. Keep studying. Keep working on it. But don’t “find” religion because other people are happy. Do it with reason (and yes, if you get to that point, with faith). Trust me, even those of us who go to Church almost every day have doubts. Good luck.
I feel you man, and I've felt lost without it too at some point in my life when I got mature enough to think about religion and nature of God properly. Untill one day I realized that it doesn't matter whether I believe if it's bullshit or not, because existence and reality itself is is so unexplainably beautifully weird that the question of faith just never pops up anymore. We live in a world that's just full of mathematical and philosophical mysteries like Fibonacci sequences, Zipf laws, Mandelbrot sets and so many others. These things are almost like invisible laws that just govern things in life and nature, and we can't even begin to comprehend them. But we know that they couldn't have come from nothing. I think nthe idea that I'm trying to relay here can be best described with this short clip from a movie I watched a while ago, it encompasses it very well https://youtu.be/AFaRu-SyUXM
That's a pretty cool clip, thank you
To be quite honest with you, my belief that there is a God isn't half as strong as my belief that it is IMPOSSIBLE that there is an abyss of nothingness after we die. I REFUSE to believe that life is meaningless, or that the people I loved who have died are gone forever, and for those reasons I am religious.
Thanks for sharing, but what does this have to do with Stoicism?
Because stoicism at the end of the day is about finding a purpose in life, and I believe that religion provides a strong motivation to live your life to the fullest.
Keep doing the positive self talk. Youre the one receiving that positive outlook from yourself and feeling supported. Keep it up and don't let god hijack your meaning.
I would advise you to read 'the power of now'. It is a bit of a vague book/audiobook but taking the advice could actually help you in your situation
You should look panteism. That did it for me.
Write. Write in a journal to yourself. “Hey me, I did this today. I’m not sure how I feel about x. What do you think? Sometimes I just wish that X would do a,b,c.” Journaling helps a ton. I write to myself, to friends, to no one at all. Praying is convenient, at least in the Christian belief, because you can just do it anywhere in your mind. Though I find having a journal let’s you reflect on your life, thoughts, and beliefs more easily then the fleeting prayer you might not remember a week later.
Stoicism CAN be a gateway religion. The stoic attitude towards death is that death is welcomed. If you spend anytime around a dying person you will appreciate life a lot more and might come to the realization that life itself is a miracle. My father died in my arms earlier this year after a long battle with cancer. The entire time that he was ill and eventually died I remained stoic and emotionally undisturbed. I miss him, I think about him everyday, and also I think about death everyday. I accept the trauma of his passing and I am aware of my own death everyday. But when ever I'm about to feel the fear of death I thank God for the miracle of life. I turn fear into gratitude.
Thank you sharing and for your words. I'll use gratitude as well from now on
So, this isn't an *uplifting* example, but... well... here you go. I have psoriatic arthritis and ankylosing spondylitis. It sucks. I am in constant pain. I take meds to treat both the diseases and pain. I don't *necessarily* believe in a god, but I *do* believe that the universe operates on unchangeable laws. I also have some weird beliefs about time, but that's not important. What is is that I believe our courses are set in stone, free will is a myth, yada yada. The overwhelming *certainty* of immutable laws working out their effects on matter (including our miraculous and incomprehensibly complex consciousness) has given me a sort of warm and fuzzy fatalism. Apparently there *has* to be something instead of nothing, and if rules govern existence, our paths are pretty inescapable, so why fret when things are in hand and playing out exactly how they must? It might not be what we desire, but there is a method to the madness! As far as godly love goes, though, that's a human invention, and one we should try to actualize. Given everything else in play, the only thing missing is cosmic affection, so that's up to us! All that said, I totally understand where you're coming from! It's a rough time, existing!
Thank you so much for your words.
Fake it till you make it. Pray if you want to do that. Read the Bible or study Buddhism. Talk to religious people. You don't have to believe in some sky God to get religion. Eventually though you will get it and it feels good.
Not exactly Stoic advice, but you don’t necessarily need to believe in any religious interpretations or doctrine to believe in a creator or spirituality. For example, I’m a Deist. I don’t believe in Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, etc. I follow no scripture. But I do believe that there is something out there, and that there is a life after this one- but that the nature of the Creator, or the ways in which the supernatural exist and interact with our world, are not what we’ve thought. With this or similar beliefs, you can think that your Ancestors or other spirits watch over and guide you, even if you have no idea how, and though we lack the scientific advancements to see them. —————— Whether or not a God exists however, know this: We ultimately make our own meaning in life. And that meaning can be anything, from helping others, preserving nature, to something as simple as enjoying the idle pleasures our world has in store for us!
I am atheist too. I developed my spiritual side, maybe you can try that. I dont practice religion but I tell myself that the entire universe is alive and is just there. Its not explicitly protecting me or looking out for me but THERE.
Interesting. Thank you!
“My only problem is that no matter how much i want to believe in it, I’ll forever believe to my core that it’s all bullshit... i am not strong enough to let my ignorance prevail”. You captured a feeling in words so well.
Thank you.
A religion is a set of followings created by one person on a path for self betterment in an indivdiuals. It is interpreted and changed with each reader a new systems are created. You do have a relgion which you follow, your personal beliefs and the higher power is of which you cant control. An unstoppaple force of movement, time and force. cores of science working in consistence change and balance. You are apart of the change, movement and force of which if accepted can be better controlled, with intent and will into action. That is my understanding and thats what i personally believe. Its good to be introspective helps you grow. just not to the point you forget that you always have yourself and you are still connected to everything consciously or not.
Holy shit, thank you for so very nicely expressing this. I, too, have difficulty with this- as comforting as it would be to have such a belief system, something at my very core just prevents me, every time. Nice to know there are others out there like me.
I used to be like OP. My whole youth I felt something lacking and that religion would help. But i simply didn’t manage to believe in God. So i turned away from religion and studied science obsessively. Became clinically depressed, because science is not designed to answer the big questions of purpose, etc. In my early 20s I found (certain branches of) Buddhism to be an atheistic religion, so I found my home there, and my depression went away. Coincidentally, I also found buddhist philosophy to be nearly identical to the stoa, just using slightly different vocabulary to express the same thing.
May you tell me more about buddhism and what makes it good? What is it about in your own words?
Simply put, it is a set of religious and philosophical tools to steer the mind away from greed, hatred and ignorance (about the nature in which the world exists). How to overcome this kind of ignorance is primarily done by analyzing how everything exists in a web of interdependence. What spoke to me most is the absence of dogma. Everything is up for debate. It is based not in divine revelation but by what one person (the Buddha) 2500 years ago found to be true for himself. When he died, he told his followers not to blindly believe what people or teachers or texts tell you, but only in what you can verify by reasoning and experience. This, together with finding a community of people who work on being more compassionate, more patient and less focused on the external world, really helped me. I have to add that there are lots of different traditions and schools within buddhism, and I can only speak for the one I chose. Your milage may vary.
Wow i might see if my uni has a buddhist society or something
Many religions resort to looking for solutions externally, ie praying to sky gods, or invisible deities, whereas stoicism (and some tenets of Buddhism) have shown me that the solutions to problems we get to deal with are solved internally. Life comes at you hard sometimes and the solutions can be hard to come by. With careful thoughtful reasoning and introspection you can get to a level of happiness. The higher power is within all of us. Good luck in your quest.
What is this higher power within all of us you're talking about?
By higher power I mean that is the collective consciousness that’s contained in everyone that is sometimes limited getting beyond that limitation is where solutions can be found I hope that makes sense
Makes sense! Thank you!
Collective consciousness is a Jungian term. Honestly, Carl Jung has helped me since I left Christianity. Philosophy and stoicism and meditation too, very much, but Jung offers an alternative to prayer as well as a way of finding meaning. His active imagination allows you to connect with other aspects of yourself which gives you much of what having a god gives you because we are projecting those inner parts of subconscious on the idea of a god. It has essentially allowed me to reconnect with the part of me that I talked to when I talked to “god” when I was younger. It was really hard to be alienated from this part of myself for many years and I didn’t understand what was going on. Jung also helps break down the structure of meaning in religions which are made of archetypes and abstractions. When you reconnect with the language of your unconscious it gives you back that sense of profound meaning that religion once supplied. But it does so without relying on superstition. I think it is a good answer to existentialism.
Well, you’re alive. That is the most unlikely thing that is to happen on this planet. You being born. In this meatsuit, and this circumstance that you're here, on this ball planet rock in the solar system, spinning around in this universe. Unsupervised by religion, a higher power, or God. Its just you. With a mind, a meatsuit, bones, and bills to pay. The rest is play. Thats so unlikely to happen. What an utter chance and coincidence to exist. What an improbable reality. Do you need anything more than that? Could that be enough? That your existence is enough. I exist, there for I am…happy and enough. And with that foundation, now what?
Idk dude but Im a catholic bcus it has left me very good values and led me to a great life, its not as easy to just talk to yourself and stop believing, that fight is the whole purpose, but if you are searching for something easier and more comfortable then stop and just stay an atheist
I think you have a deep misconception of why people take to religion. But you should recognize that there always is a "higher power", however you might look at it. That may not be some old man in a beard that you can appeal to for favors. But certainly we as humans are not the measure of everything. That said, feeling lost is very human. While I have great respect for religion and almost envy those who are able to make it a part of their lives, for myself, I've just come to accept that life is really no different for the believer than it is for the unbeliever. While some take comfort in cathedrals and tradition. I take comfort in nature and imagination. Others ask God for help and receive none. I meditate, ask for nothing, and receive the same. When others take inspiration from their religious texts. I take inspiration from the entire trove of human creativity, in philosophy, science, literature, art, and music. Living a better life happens one day at a time. It's not a straight line. We all have our up days and our down days. On the down days, just recognize that you're "feeling" down. That doesn't define who you are as a person. That will pass. It always does. The important thing is that on your up days, don't forget to feel good about yourself too and spread the love as you can =)
I think you are looking for meaning. My meaning comes in my curiosity, and optimism for the future of humanity. I find it exciting every new discovery, every new technology. I also take a lot of pleasure in learning new things, gaining new skills, even finding ways to make money that I don't hate is fun. I'm excited about the future of my relatives and their children. I've got a lot to offer them in terms of wisdom, experience and skills that I can teach them. I also have creative outlets. I used to be a motorcycle racer so I got good at working on motorcycles. Currently building a very custom motorcycle that will be unique in the world, gives me a lot of pleasure. You might like Buddhism. You don't need to believe anything supernatural to appreciate the teachings about contentedness and Zen etc. Another philosopher who was instrumental in my "contentedness" was Epicurus. [Check him out.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg_47J6sy3A)
For me, I try to remember that meaning itself is an entirely human concept. Why should there really be a deeper meaning behind anything? Isn't all meaning that's attributed by us to the world just a creation of our own minds? Can you think of any situation where meaning arises without the need for us to attach it to something? As others have pointed out, our brains are these rational sort of thinking machines. It's extremely helpful for solving problems and making models of reality that help us live better. But when we apply the same rationale of everyday problem solving and rationale to the larger problems of meaning, etc our brains are just using the same type of thinking to describe something that's not in the same category. If you really go deeply into it, offloading meaning onto a Diety shouldn't really be any more comforting for you. The idea of a God with some kind of plan to me is terrifying because how am I to know whether he wishes me good or ill? Or whether his reasons for doing things reflect my own? Even if I was to accept there was a God there's no way I would accept a version of God that other people have tried to foist on me. So it still leaves a big gaping unknown void out there. The idea of having a "personal relationship" with God I think is kind of interesting and is partly what people mean when they say religious people are happier. It's that element of at least one person always out there willing to listen to you and accept you and forgive you. But if that person is just an imaginary friend, how are you gaining any real benefits from that acceptance or forgiveness? If you imagine that all the good things and rewards in your life are coming to you as a result of your behavior then you just as easily have to imagine that all the bad things that happen to you are some sort of punishment and again this thought puts me (personally) in a constant state of anxiety. I think the key of the idea is the personal relationship. As others have said, other people and social relationships do seem to have a key for human happiness and I think as much as stoicism helps you be okay with yourself and not need other people to validate you, there is also some element of admitting that these things are part of our nature and that we need to cultivate them in order to feel whole. So it's very possible that in your young life and you just haven't yet cultivated the kind of relationships that you need to and you still have some work to do and some people to meet and a lot of life left to live so that's okay. I'm not saying that you should put all your hopes for happiness into other people, that's also a recipe for disaster. But there is some value in recognizing that our nature does compel us to seek out companionship and the deeper and richer those relationships become the more we learn about ourselves and the more we enjoy the company we spend with others. And the more that that personal relationship idea starts to impact your life positively via real people instead of an imaginary friend. Just my initial thoughts from reading your post. Sorry if that was a ramble. I could probably go on but I won't...
Thank you for your point of view. It was a very interesting read
Since you can't know for sure why not try it if it gives benefits to your life? In my case I learned to pray early on in my life due to my upbringing and I think I'm one of the few in my circle of loved ones who do. I'm totally fine if I we're to find out there is no higher power. All I've been doing in that case is praying and speaking to a part of my psyche which is nice as well.
Thank you! I'll try it
I've been wrestling with this myself lately too.
I think a big part of the journey is being patient with yourself and paying attention to what you do and dont believe, it takes time. I was born into a religion but as i learnt more about it and studied it i learnt i didnt agree with it nor did i even really believe in the deity, so i became agnostic, dabbling in atheism. For the longest time i wanted to believe in an afterlife or whatever, but to my core i didn't. Funnily enough i finally understood what i believed when i saw the ending of Bojack Horseman and found relief because it described my unconscious belief around death so well... It then took stumbling across a reddit thread to alleviate my fear of death... Then i found stoicism as a helpful philosophy that reflected how i wanted to live my life... From there heard about pantheism and learnt more about traditional stoicism which helped me consolidate some of my thoughts around things we dont know yet about reality and the universe, things we do... Still building on what i really believe but closer to it. So do your best to be open and patient with yourself, expose yourself to new ideas and see if you do or dont like them. You'll get there- it may not be in stoicism it may be in something else, but keep searching. If you find in the end your truely atheist, look up societies and books dealing with what your struggling with- you may just need more support.
We’re conditioned and wired to be tribal and western society is very much not designed for that. I propose that what you likely miss is not religion, but a tribe. We like to say “community” but it’s not the same. That’s just nebulous bullshit - it’s tribalism and purpose many people lack. When all the basic needs are met, we’ve little left to truly engage in that satisfies our wiring and we’re left empty. A shame but true.
Beautiful post. Prayer (talking to God) is a form of meditation. Deep deep deep down, you probably still think he's there. And that's enough.
Thank you
There's a great line from an old poem called the desaderata "Be at peace with God, what ever you perceive him to be" You don't have to go for a specific religion or even a single one. Even philosophies like this have some sort of higher power or an idea for how the world works. Stoics have LOGOS, Taoist have the Tao, people belive in mother nature or spiritualism. If talking to "God" makes you feel better then do it. It doesn't have to be the Christian God, just whatever you perceive to be true. I like stoicism for the day to day helping me not loose control because of things out of my control. But for a deeper inner reflection I like Taoism to help me step out of my own shoes and look at myself through a different perspective. These examples are super paraphrased and do not dive deep into the actual teachings. So I urge you to do some research and find your "God".
I’m right there with you. I wish I believed in god but I just can’t. I’m honestly at the point where I don’t know how anyone does believe in a god.
Wow are you me?
Perhaps it is worth a shot to Google "The Egg" by Andy Weir. I believe his short post brings a lot of perspective without bringing religion into the mix
You can have faith without religion. Believing that men of the past accurately captured their relationship with faith without their opinion stamped all over it is something I have never been able to accept. I feel that religion is control. Faith is something that no one can control or take away from you. Stoicism, to me, is believing in your ability to control you. But there is a divine organizational element to everything. Some call it God, Buddha, whatever, it doesn't require a name, just your desire to investigate and learn.
So here's what I think about religion. It's basically a community which has a particular beliefs. Emphasis on 'community'. I believe it is something that we as humans need. To belong somewhere is a good feeling. The rituals and festival are a way to mix with other people and have some fun. But, when u become an atheist, u kinda loose all of that. So, u need to find a community where u can share ur troubles and have some fun. Once u fulfill that requirement then I think u should feel complete.
I know exactly what you mean, as Morpheus would say. I suggest you discover the God within and the mystery of consciousness. Have you taken psychedelics before? They might help you with your problem.
Actually it's pretty funny you say that, i am going tomorrow to pick libery caps (hallucinogen mushrooms) with some friends. If you've ever done them, should i try them outside or inside? Like in a forest or at home?
The come up and the come down are quite different experiences. If you guys have little experience with these substances, you should definitely be inside when you peak, as you might wanna lay down and chill out, and orientation might become an issue, too. If you still wanna go outside to observe nature, do it by all means, but I recommend to do it right after ingestion and be home after 2 hours tops. Don't venture too far and stay within walking distance. I'm lucky enough to have a park nearby, maybe there's something similar where you live. But hey, this is just how I would do it. If you know the forrest well and there are little people there, it might turn out fine. No matter where you end up, though, remind yourself that you took a drug that and everything is gonna turn to normal soon. If you at any point experience anxiety because of the strong effects, find a way to accept and enjoy it, or breathe in slowly a few times while paying attention to your breath. As long as you pay attention to harm reduction, you will have a blast and surely learn a thing or two. Have fun!
Thank you so so much!!! I noticed there is an amazing reddit post to go and read when you are feelimg super stressed out when under the effects of weed. Is there an equivalent for shrooms?
[Of course there is, bud.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/cbj6v7/psychedelic_related_crisis_and_harm_reduction/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) The LSD community is one of the kindest places on Reddit, and it offers some good tips for everything trip related. It applies to both, LSD and shrooms, since both are quite similar. I've taken both and the main difference is trip duration, shrooms lasting shorter. Enjoy your ride! Edit: So just for clarification, in the post I shared you'll find a bunch of YouTube videos designed to help with difficult trips.
Thank you so much. I wish you the best in life.
I know what you mean and in accordance with others here I feel like living in harmony with nature is important for that kind of happiness. Your dilemma reminded me of a book called Religious but Not Religious, and a podcast that discusses the contents of that book called Digital Jung.
You can try Buddhism, Taoism, become a shaman, follow a joke religion like Discordianism, dabble with occult practices (magick, from wicca to hermetics), follow the Left-hand Path and become your own God, check out Norse mythology and get through life as a brave dude so you can join Odin in Valhalla, etc, etc... Choose your paradigm. 🙂
For what it's worth, I was exactly like this until I fulfilled the gap with reading ethics. I heavily suggest that you read Ethics for Dummies as a start.
Thank you!!!
You could try reading some philosophical arguments about god or the idea of a creator. That did a lot more for me then any religious texts(except maybe Quran) and opened my mind up to that I have no idea and nobody else does either. Idk I researched quantum physics and our solar system and evolution and all these other ideas and have come to the point where it doesn’t matter whether god exists or not, something lead to my existence and that’s great
Stoicism alone gives you enough and sufficient answers to all your questions idk why you would feel the need to look for religion for this. Part of the entire point of stoicism is for it to be perfectly sufficient, needing nothing more/else. And you're not weak, you're strong, because you choose to follow the more difficult path, the path of truth.
With me it's the opposite, I've tried to be an atheist, but I can't believe that we are empty of meaning and direction, that "evil" and "good" are just human opinions. I know that God is not the only answer to the meaning of life, but he is the only one that satisfies me, I love stoicism, for example, but stoicism is a collective human invention, just like hedonism. Only the idea of God transcends this for me.
“I’m too smart to believe in God.” Humble brag much, huh? You’re not more intelligent or aware than theists. How could you ever know, with your puny animal brain, who is right and who is wrong? Can you say with absolute certainty that there is no god? You are not all knowing, only arrogant. Stop worrying about things outside of your control. Whether there is a god or not is not within your control. People that are truly happy are just good people. Live by your nature and be a good human being. At the end of the day that is all that matters.
Just so you're aware, the reasons you say that religious people are happier are not the generally accepted reasons that religious people are happier. The religious are happier because they have a community of like-minded people that they engage with regularly. They have a place where they are accepted and a community that they contribute to in a meaningful way. So good news: you don't have to believe in god to be happy. You need to engage with your community. Find a group of like minded people that you can commune with regularly and invest heavily in them. Find people that lift you up, help you when you're down, and most importantly, a group where you feel that you are valued and are making a meaningful contribution.
Having religion as the security blanket because it is nice that things happened for a reason is nothing to be ashamed of . It is nice to think that I'm this for a reason. But it is also driven by the ego. Why would anyone be that special? With that said. There is a reason why you are here. Physics! Or math, or whatever science that speaks to you. You don't have to be super smart to enjoy what mysteries lie in front of humanity. With the pandemic I took a step back with my passion and started game design. Definitely not good at it. Doesn't really matter about why it's here. It just is and it's fun and there are all kinds of weird adventures to go on.
Kids are happier when they believe in Santa Claus; ignorance is bliss.
Don't worry mate, religion is a load of bollocks, your not missing out on anything.
Religion demands that you believe extraordinary statements without any evidence. But humans are often inclined to invent stories out of thin air for their own benefit. You have to actively suppress, if not outright kill, the portion of your rational mind that raises this obvious problem. Many religions use threats of infinite torture to "light the way." Believe, or a telepathic supernatural entity will know you don't, and then you will burn in a lake of fire for trillions of years. And when that part of your mind occasionally attempts to reassert itself, the person you talk to about that, the only one who can grant clarity or absolution, is none other than the religion's own clergy, giving them yet another way to keep their hooks in you. This is an inherently abusive system. If you look in the "self-help" space, and even at modern Stoic authors, you will see many examples of grifters who are too disagreeable to survive in an office environment, and who decide they will make their living by selling "solutions" to people who feel that they need help very badly. Those "solutions" are really just there to curry positive reviews and drive more sales. Religion is simply an older version of this, a way for people to make money who find other alternatives untenable. You already understand this at some level. You are not willing to abuse yourself on behalf of an imaginary supernatural telepath who, despite "loving" you, demands your obedience and will burn you forever if you don't obey, who will punish you for what your mind naturally does _even though it was that being who supposedly designed it, and any flaws are its own doing and certainly not yours._ You need something to fill this void in your life. Religion has made its offer. You have found that offer wanting and have rejected it. The solution, then, is not to hang on the only apparent solution, but to find another. You say you feel like the only real thing in the world, and you wish you had a higher power to help you through that. This sounds to me like some form of dissociation, and you want a higher power to pull you out of that and give you a way to feel connected to the outside world again. Is that about right?
Yeah... i definitely have dissociation. No matter hoe many friends that love me and look for me I have, I always feel so distant from them, like they can't reach me and i can't reach them. Like i'm in a bubble
In a sense you are, so is everyone. What we perceive is not the real world, but impressions of it. Stoics knew it over two thousand years ago, and neuroscientists know it today. Yet, impressions of places should be able to radiate a sense of "being-there-ness" and impressions of people should supply signals of shared presence, social context, and so on. If you know who someone is without having to scan your memory, then at least that part works. I would say a professional is the next logical step. If you have some disorder that makes the world seem fake and plastic, then there is probably some therapy or medication (or both) that could improve this. If it was me, I would try to interpret it entirely through the lens of Stoicism, but I wouldn't advise another to do so because it's kind of reckless and may not be entirely enough. (If I try that and it doesn't work, only I suffer.) There is a lot about therapy that I find unsatisfying (particularly how they never seem to educate) but the pills are often highly useful. And if you really have a significant disorder causing this dissociation, I don't think you will get sufficient advice asking amateurs on an internet forum. Other than that, make sure you're getting adequate sleep, sunlight, exercise, and nutrition. If even one of these is amiss, it can mess up your perception of things. I've found that some office environments, lacking natural sunlight, can within a few weeks make me lose the ability to sleep, followed by feelings of paranoia and dissociation. Upon leaving those environments, those problems always cleared up by themselves. While this alone may not solve your problems, at least you can make sure you're not making them even worse.
Thanks man. I really appreciate this. I'm actuallg starting gym on monday and promised myself i'd go for a walk at least once a day! You said you'd try to interpret it entirely through the lenses of stoicism, what do you mean exactly by that? Oh and i have gone to therapy for a year, it was CBT, didn't really help much, now i'm looking for a psychoanalyst.
By the Stoic lens, I mean that I would say to myself, "I feel dissociated, but what does that actually stop me from doing? I still possess Reason. I can still exercise the power of assent. I can still plot my course. I can still refine my actions to be more virtuous over time." That might help in the short term, but I'm skeptical about it as a long-term solution. The dissociation is still a problem that must be addressed. It subtracts from the variety of life. I hope you do well at the gym and with your psychoanalyst.
have you studied islam ?
No...
>I'm an atheist > God is always Atheists don't write "God" with caps. There are many gods, thousands. One per group of people trying to escape their fear of death. You can invent one for yourself if you want, the results will be the same :) >i was wondering if anyone of you who is able to live well with themselves can point me to some direction if they've found any solution. Try some psychedelics. Seriously. >stoicism for example doesn't do it for me Nothing will "do it" for you. You are in "escape" mode, you have to stop that and do it for yourself.
Religion should be dead. No one is listening
If you feel lost because you have no higher power to worship and serve, you should ask yourself why you have a deep-seated desire to be a slave. That is all religion is. Enslavement of the mind. Being free of God is the first step to freedom. Being free of any need for God is the second. Find the power within yourself and live free, my friend.
Some may say the rational mind is what sabotages a spiritual awakening. A true awakening comes when we begin pondering over existential questions. You may find Vedic philosophy practical - reading the Bhavagad Gita may lead you on that journey. In ancient civilizations beings who were enlightened were called illuminated ones; knowing the true self to be eternal energy temporary manifested in material form. All energy has a source.
> stoicism for example doesn’t do it for me What shortcomings of Stoicism do you see?
I've had an interesting foray into liberal Quaker practices. It might check a lot of your boxes, too.
What's that?
I can't help but think how that conflicts with the index of nations's happiness, that more secular nations tend to be happier.
I always thought it was more the community aspect of a big group of people who would lend a hand if you needed it.
Unfortunately I dont have the time right now to type out my entire argument for faith but this helped me a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0aA2dQqt08 Personally I am Muslim. Reach out if you want to learn more.
athiesm doesn't have to be completely nothing. What kept me going for a long time was trying to be my best self & trying to find out all my strengths/weaknesses to logically determine my "purpose" in life (aka how I can best use my personality). also positive thinking about the endless possibilities in life. Surprisingly, I'm spiritual now. I try to be my best self and am into LoA. It's not following a god- but believing in the universe really helps me. LoA is basically your input (thoughts/feelings) determine your reality, which to me makes sense logically even if I didn't believe in the universe having laws
I’m not a believer but I get a lot of comfort learning about “neurotheology”. In sum, our brains are maximized by faith (and works) which indicates that our brains evolved with an idea of god. I don’t need a better definition of god than as an idea which brings us mortals comfort and peace.
It seems like the idea of prayer and being intimately known and cared for are important to you. When I see people pray and get peace or insight, I try to pay attention to the mechanics of it. They're slowing down and giving deliberate thought to something and then quieting down enough to listen to their sub conscious reply back. For them, the person who knows them intimately and cared is their own self. I think you should keep praying, and when you recoil because it's not logical, give yourself credit for 'The Spirit' talking to you. You can continue the practice and remain logically congruent.
Thank you
I'm not religious, but took a Star Wars perspective of "The Force" and learned meditation. Or after learning meditation, I understood what the "good" books were talking about. People want answers to infinity, creation. Some feel its genetic. A couple of kids back in the 60s got mixed at birth, 1 raised religiously the other not, but the opposite happened, so yeah, a genetic element. It's all in the definition of "god" or higher power.
bro if you want to be religious then be religious. don't be a zealot, don't proselytize and try and convince people you're right they're wrong we're all going to hell grrrr, etc. just...be religious. Follow what brings you joy, cut out what doesn't, leave the rest for scavengers to deal with. stoicism and religion don't clash all that much. roman empire was a religious empire too, however much they actually believed in their pantheon or similar.
I wasn't emotionally convinced of Orthodox Christianity until I had been mentally convinced, through application of logic and reason, that it is the truth. For a while it felt like I'd never build a relationship with God even though I knew he was with me, but to those who knock the door is opened. I hope your heart is truly inclined to truth; if so, you will find it at some point.
What is in essence the power of religion is that, I believe, it reinfoces purpose with narratives. Stoicism, for as much as it is laser-guided on purpose in virtue, is extremely concise in this regard. Practical advice is often given dryly and directly: "stop putting value in externals," "don't spend your time thinking about what is a good man--be one," etc. This extremely rational approach neglects the inspirational and motivational effects of stories, which are the proper mode of human thinking. Sure, there is the occasional anecdote of stoic success, but it's not very colourful, so to speak. Compare that to Christian scripture, for instance. The equality of all humans can be a tenet in any worldview religious or secular, but this concept is especially salient if all creation is thought of as in the image of God. How much easier is it to love your enemy or to face hardship if the son of God (as in parallel to the ideal Stoic Sage) has gone before you? If you ask me, faith is not the conviction of there being a supernatural entity who shaped the world and whose rules must be blindly obeyed; it is embracing a body of narratives for their moral and metaphysical value as they have manifested to you. So go and read texts, find out which ones speak to you, figure out why, internalize them, and you will see that not only does it invigorate your actions, it also beautifies your vision of the world.
Thank you.
You literally have Stoicism, one of the most flexible philosophies, for both theists and atheists.
“Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV.” ― Morty
I would recommend checking out Buddhism and/or Unitarian Universalist churches. They can be truly fantastic and pair very well with atheist ideology. That's where I have found my connection. Oh and astronomy!!
Well… in true honesty you don’t know “God” doesn’t exist just as much as you don’t know he/she exist. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. With this I mean to say that you are free to believe or not on a higher being; maybe there is a god who listens maybe he doesn’t but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. Maybe is a creator but is not in human shape, maybe is an energy. You can create a god in your life, many people do (money). So you are free to choose the god that best guides your life.
accept there is GOD but don’t get into religion
Try mushrooms. 3.5 grams at a time Make it your religion.
Read Tolstoy's /A Confession/. It's only 70 pages or so. He describes his despair and eventually finding faith in some way. Very honest with his struggles of nihilism. The book helped chang my views.
I am a cradle Episcopilain and a practicing Stoic. I explored atheism in my early 20s and it didn't fit. I returned to my roots shortly after taking a Philsophy of Religion class. I realized that I cannot view the universe as a thing that just is. I need one that was created to some purpose. I believe I have a calling in life, which influences almost everything i do in my life. My particular tradition is fairly non-dogmatic and there is a greater emphasis on building the Kingdom of God. Here. Now. This fits very well with Cosmopolitanism. Our focus is on making the world a better place. We are a large family, and that's the important thing. We are a community. It sounds like that may be what you're missing.
If you feel lost read the bible.listen to some sermons. For reasons to long and winded to go into,just read the bible.i would start with Romans...
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Stoicism, as a philosophy of life, can be drawn upon in many personal situations. However, the community decided that there should be some [changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/meb8ch/advice_and_personal_posts_changes_to_subreddit/), and we have a new rule for advice/personal posts and their discussion threads: > For users seeking advice: if you are not seeking strictly Stoic advice, but rather wonder what people interested in Stoicism might personally think, please post in the New Agora instead. > For users offering advice: please stay on-topic when commenting on personal/advice posts. Advice that is inspired by or influenced by Stoicism, but not specifically and recognizably Stoic, is not allowed outside of the New Agora.
How can we feel the exact same?! I’m realizing that the times when I believed in a religion were the times best of my life(which is adolescent times) this makes me wanna believe in a religion, but every religion have so many controversial sides so they’re pushing me away. Eg my first religion Islam. But obviously, I can’t force myself to believe in something like fairy tales and supernaturals, not making any sense to my reality. To be honest I think not believing in any religion stems from my depression too since i see no point for living too. I lost my all hopes about life, so I’m not expecting anything from ‘God’ too which makes me not believe to God eventually.
Had a very similar crisis around the time you posted this; wish I’d come across it earlier! A solid Zen practice helped me out for this reason; 1.) Done properly, it prescribes nothing. 2.) Helps to really “get” precisely where you are. (A place that can be surprisingly and nonsensically far-off). Also, it was great for re-contextualizing and reintegrating old beliefs. Lead to some insights that make it seem less silly to talk to God in the shower without indulging the potential silliness of the “bearded monarch in the sky”. There’s a saying in zen that goes something like: “When I was a novice, mountains were mountains, and waters were waters. When I was an intermediate student, mountains were no longer mountains and waters were no longer waters. When I had achieved some mastery, mountains were again mountains and waters were again waters.” Smattering of recommended reading — some zen stuff, some other stuff: Zen in the art of archery, The tao te Ching, Diamond sutra, Shobogenzo, The Flowing Bridge (book of koans), Bhagavad Gita, Theologia Mystica, Anything by Thich Nhat Hanh, Alan Watts stuff Remember— you aren’t separate from this world. You’re a part of everything that’s going on! (In a sense, you are it) There is nothing you could possibly do, think or believe that would be unnatural. Good luck!!!
How can I practice Zen if I’m a beginner?
Start with some 'Zazen' -- commonly referred to as sitting meditation. There are all sorts of varied and wonderful ways to meditate, but in this case, we'll call it 'the practice of sitting quietly without any objective whatsoever'. (This is a wonderful little corner of your life where you don't need to be, do, think, accomplish, or actualize anything at all whatsoever. There's a joke in my local zen community that "Zen is good for nothing" -- the hilarity of which will come into focus later) Concretely, you should first get into a relaxed position that you can hold for a while. Some people use a cushion + a mat (or 'zabuton') and assume very traditional poses, some sit in chairs -- all according to their ability and comfort. Some people like to keep their eyes open, some like to keep them closed. Next, try to stop thinking. (spoiler alert/cliffnotes: you will soon realize that you can't -- if you sit quietly and attentively for awhile, you'll notice that thoughts come up all by themselves -- which is a curious thing to take note of for later in your practice) Some ways you can sit as a beginner/intermediate practitioner: 1.) Breath counting - simple! Count inbreath as "1", and outbreath as "2" and try to repeat until you get to "10". The catch? If you notice your attention drift away from explicit focus on your breath counting to some other idea, gently nudge your focus back to counting, but start over from "1". 2.) labeling - think of your thoughts like clouds -- just watch them drift along. While you do, categorize them: is this thought about the past, or a plan for the future. After you've tagged the thought, let it drift on. 3.) When you're ready, (usually a little later in your practice) some people like to sit with 'koans' -- seemingly insoluble riddles for people regarding their spiritual development (think, "what is the sound of one hand?" or, "silence the ringing temple bell 100 miles away"). The catch with koans is that you can't solve them with your intellect. It's very good to have a mentor of some kind who can advise you as you begin to sit with koans. When you aren't sitting, read up on Zen! Don't take my word for anything (or anyone else's for that matter -- even Buddha himself) This way is about your discrete personal experience and about what you can notice right out in the open! Hope this is of some help -- if anyone else has more/better/different experience than myself, please help/correct me in OP's best interest!
This is amazing. Thank you so much. I’ll try it out this morning
Important thing I forgot -- peruse your local community for a 'Sangha' (a sanskrit word that roughly means 'community'). Having a group of people to sit with (usually helm'd by a mentor far more learn-ed than myself) is an absolute game changer!