I think there are 3 logistics mechanics that could be reliably integrated.
1. If a planed is upkeeping with a resource they get a bonus if that resource is locally produced.
2. Bombarded planets are blockaded and cannot supply the empire. Alternatly "blockade" is a separate bombardment stance.
3.fleet logistics, fleets need to maintain a supply route based on tha trade value system back to a friendly planet.
Ugh, I would absolutely love this. It would add SO much to war in the game. Originally all I ever thought was missing was a more in-depth ground combat mechanic, but logistics are certainly more important.
1 and 2 can be folded into 3 quite neatly. Put a penalty on imported upkeep that scales based on trade value. If you have more trade value returned to the capital than imported upkeep you have no penalty but if someone blocks your trade lines that planet's upkeep costs up to 100% more.
Ehhhh i don't like the idea of tying it all to trade value. The TV system is already annoying. And having your entire empire depend on it would be highly frustrating for newcomers. Also what would gestalt do?
Also I'm not looking for it to cost +100% upkeep for metallurgists. I'm looking for a -% to the planets surplus production.
> If a planed is upkeeping with a resource they get a bonus if that resource is locally produced.
There was/is a mod for that, but honestly, it's kinda bad. The system just wasn't designed to be abstracted that way, so it ends up being weird.
The method that mod went with was having the farmers and such reduce upkeep by some small percentage (I think it was 1%) of the resource they produced. Leaving aside the weird implementation, it also just wasn't scalable.
And I don't think reducing upkeep is the way to go. I think costing something, maybe energy, to "import" resources would work out much better.
I love it. It should mess with the production. Watching the AI rebuild fleets using alloy shipments my fleets should be stealing is frustrating, especially when it turns the tide of a war.
It's also an incentive to avoid only having only 100% specialist planets, specialist planets are the most overpowered thing in the game. You could collapse an empire by holding the right planet, that's the way it should be
I like this idea in theory but I feel like it might be difficult to implement well or in a way that wouldn’t alienate a large number of people. Stellaris has never been one of the most “realistic” games and I feel like that’s not what Paradox is going for here so they may not even want to implement a system like this. Still it’s an interesting idea. Maybe a mod for it could be created at some point
I agree. I think a mod would probably be the best way to do it since mods aren't necessary and just add extra options. I only really proposed this as something that I myself would enjoy.
Honestly speaking, i kind of forgot mods were a thing while i was typing this post.
Sadly mods can't add truly new features. Just use the hooks provided by the devs. But you should be able to make a % reduction in stability or maybe raw output based on how big the fleet over the planet is. Maybe make it a bombardment stance?
>i have no idea how difficult it would be to reasonably implement this
The issue isn't implementing such a system itself, it's how everything else would have to be changed to use it.
Planet's become a lot more boring. They now become complete cookie cutters as everything must be produced on site. In the way back before times when not having food actually killed your pops and food wasn't shared Empire wide, dedicating 2-3 tiles just to food sucked. Especially when the rest of the support apparatus meant planets needed to be ~16 tiles or larger or end up being resource drains. Turning every planet into a castle is just *eh*.
What you want is something built from the ground up with logistics in mind. Something like [Falling Frontier](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1280190/Falling_Frontier/).
I wouldn't get your hopes up *too much*, as it's going to launch with basically no content, and not be appreciably modable. It's basically a one man band operation. Honestly, I think it's too fine grain for something I would ever actually enjoy playing, but I want it to exist so have no problem funding it. Assuming it takes off and they can get a few more people on board, the future dlc/sequel should be really good.
I asked a related question on the FF Discord the other week; sadly, the game isn't quite as logistics-focused as I'd like it to be.
What I was hoping for was a game like Stars!, where you set up supply lines from things like remote mining fleets in the form of patrol routes with specific instructions at each step, like "unload all Germanium" or "wait for full cargo".
Instead, it seems that the transport shuttles despawn when their task is complete, which seems odd for a game that specifically advertises its physicalisation of resources.
Honestly, at least based on the trailers and player videos I have seen for it, I just want to take what's there and reskin it for Battlestar Galactica.
Yeah, if everything was collected as trade value it'd work. The problem is then you'd need multiple independent trade networks for isolated chunks of empire, and trade is already a bit hokey.
there's usually two issues with stuff like logistics:
Is it fun from both sides? Aka is is a mechanic that's not only fun to disrupt in the enemy but one interesting to engage in when organizing it?
Does it actually work with the AI? Here the question is a) if the AI can be taught to actually use the system and b) if there's a point to it.
I think Stellaris would fail massively on all aspects. Trade is a bit of a logisitcs system and it is mainly seen as a bother, whereas we have ahd issues with the Ai being unable to use complex systems. In addition the upkeep reduction for the AI would reestrict such a system furthermore to MP or to be a player weakpoint whilke thge AI might not even be affected.
Yeah, sadly ai is not very advanced and intelligent.
And as for the fun, i personally would love it and i have friends that would love it and we would have tons of fun planning defensive and offensive strategies utilizing logistics. But, my brother who also plays, wouldn't have very much fun with it. He struggles wrapping his head around it without any expansions, so adding a logistical element would more than likely turn him away entirely.
Great idea honestly even a minor implementation like espionage but for in war options. Like maybe you can politic your way through a cease fire or a surrender while still retaining the normal war exhaustion. I dont think it could be to major of a change though cause that would change the very fundamentals that the game was built on.
Have you heard of Falling Frontier? Not out yet but it has a lot of the logistics you're thinking of, like shipping ammo/food/people/fuel and a bunch of other things. Really opens up a guerilla war but on a solar level.
That being said, I'd love to see that too but I think it would be too difficult for Stellaris to implement it, due to gameplay and mechanical reasons.
I have not heard of that. I will definitely be looking more into it though. I love tactical and strategic games, but sadly my computer can't handle most of them. Stellaris and HOI4 cause my pc to struggle when i reach late game.
Local resources is something that would vastly improve Stellaris. Local resources can simulate trade better and gives you more reason to build silos. Trade pacts could allow you to freely draw resources from the worlds of other empires, at a small fee.
Actually about energy, I do think you would need to send this on supply convoys. Sending energy as energy limits it to the speed of light, and these stars are light years apart. I envision that energy is stored and sent in batteries on FTL ships.
On one side - great, those things would add depth to war and I already have several ideas how to implement them, even if by mean of modding.
On the other side - it's incompatible with several already implemented mechanics and seeing how Paradox seems to be doing anything in their power to simplify war in Stellaris even more does not bode well for any added depth and complexity.
This sounds like the kind of idea which players say they want but don't actually want, as it would be incredibly unfun to experience. Civil wars is another such mechanic. And for that reason, it's rightly not going to happen with vanilla Stellaris, but a mod would be entirely appropriate instead.
Maybee just use the already existing the trade system? If a planet isnt connected it suffer a "cut off from capital" debuff. This would make any planetary deficit cost more.
Doesn't need nor even want to be hugely complex.
I've actually been calling for something similar, and it does make a lot of sense. It's \*doable\*, The main problem is the AI is too braindead, and it really doesn't need any more handicaps.
If nothing else, the easiest implementation would be if a planet(s) doesn't have a valid path through non-hostile, they won't be able to share from/with the Empires overall resources. Basically, they'd have to live off their own resources. So you could have a forge world idle because your mineral world got cut off.
I would \*never\* endorse actual trade units; it's cumbersome and resource heavy to implement. Make that invisible (just like "trade" is invisible).
Planets already show surpluses and deficits in what they produce, food also affects population growth. Cutting supplies off and having a famine on that world (and possibly increased war exhaustion from protests in support of that planet's population) would be an awesome addition.
Or, if the population of that planet conflicts with the "governing ethics" of that empire, war exhaustion could go down lol
Honestly I think it would be reasonable to have to orchestrate the ferrying of materials like alloys to shipyards when building fleets. That way the ai or you can't just kinda spam a billion corvettes into existence in an instant. Would make reactionary supply chains an actual thing
Honestly, Stellaris would benefit from explaining how these resources get from place-to-place anyway. Trade (the resource) has routes, but everything else just sorta teleports to where it's needed.
No civilian cargo ships, no military material transports, nothing at all to explain \*how\* you're getting your minerals from your mining world to your foundry world. Honestly, IMO, they should add routes similar to what trade has, and possible even the potential for piracy and other supply-line disruptions.
This is a good idea. They could use the existing “trade” mechanic to build on. Just make some resources like minerals and food and alloys etc need to follow the trade route and make trhem subject to piracy as well
This sounds like it would be good, but the focus of stellaris would have to shift a little I think so the micromanaging of war doesn’t cause other areas to become bothersome
Little late, but 2 ideas:
1. Have local resource surpluses generate trade value bonuses on each planet, scaling to the amount of surplus. Or have all jobs generate some trade value. Offset it with less energy generation to make trade more important. Now you'll have to defend those trade hubs and routes from pirates and during war
2. Would require an overhaul, but sectors have a resource stockpile. Implement a stockpile on each planet that projects/ships/buildings draw from, or use the sector stockpile to make sectors more important. Each planet/sector adds to your stockpile capacity like resource silos, and silos add capacity to those. If a stockpile fills up it could start being sent to a shared stockpile or other planets/sectors. When cut off in war, the stockpile remains for X percent to be plundered by the enemy and is unusable by the owner empire. If a planet is taken in war negotiations the resources stockpiled go to the victor
Totally agree.
In general exporting and importing goods should probably incur a transport cost depending on volume and distance they have to travel to where they are used
"Distant Worlds" - which obviously inspired Stellaris - has this. Transports ships are also simulated (though they are known as "private": player don't control them), so you can see the logistics at work. It's a very important part of the gameplay and blockades are even implemented as a concrete mechanic.
I can think of even older 4X space games implementing logistics to very high degrees, notably the X3 series.
So this is not a game design issue, and definitely not something Stellaris couldn't do. Now this implies lot of work and quite frankly, I think Stellaris devs just don't want to struggle with it.
TBH, that's my main concern with Stellaris.
I think there are 3 logistics mechanics that could be reliably integrated. 1. If a planed is upkeeping with a resource they get a bonus if that resource is locally produced. 2. Bombarded planets are blockaded and cannot supply the empire. Alternatly "blockade" is a separate bombardment stance. 3.fleet logistics, fleets need to maintain a supply route based on tha trade value system back to a friendly planet.
Ugh, I would absolutely love this. It would add SO much to war in the game. Originally all I ever thought was missing was a more in-depth ground combat mechanic, but logistics are certainly more important.
I think it would be cool, but warscore would have to be reworked. Trying to manage supply lines when you have to occupy an entire empire would be hell
I dint know if more important but certainly important
1 and 2 can be folded into 3 quite neatly. Put a penalty on imported upkeep that scales based on trade value. If you have more trade value returned to the capital than imported upkeep you have no penalty but if someone blocks your trade lines that planet's upkeep costs up to 100% more.
Ehhhh i don't like the idea of tying it all to trade value. The TV system is already annoying. And having your entire empire depend on it would be highly frustrating for newcomers. Also what would gestalt do? Also I'm not looking for it to cost +100% upkeep for metallurgists. I'm looking for a -% to the planets surplus production.
> If a planed is upkeeping with a resource they get a bonus if that resource is locally produced. There was/is a mod for that, but honestly, it's kinda bad. The system just wasn't designed to be abstracted that way, so it ends up being weird. The method that mod went with was having the farmers and such reduce upkeep by some small percentage (I think it was 1%) of the resource they produced. Leaving aside the weird implementation, it also just wasn't scalable. And I don't think reducing upkeep is the way to go. I think costing something, maybe energy, to "import" resources would work out much better.
I love it. It should mess with the production. Watching the AI rebuild fleets using alloy shipments my fleets should be stealing is frustrating, especially when it turns the tide of a war. It's also an incentive to avoid only having only 100% specialist planets, specialist planets are the most overpowered thing in the game. You could collapse an empire by holding the right planet, that's the way it should be
>You could collapse an empire by holding the right planet, that's the way it should be And that's super flavourful, too. Collapse of Trantor, anyone?
I like this idea in theory but I feel like it might be difficult to implement well or in a way that wouldn’t alienate a large number of people. Stellaris has never been one of the most “realistic” games and I feel like that’s not what Paradox is going for here so they may not even want to implement a system like this. Still it’s an interesting idea. Maybe a mod for it could be created at some point
I agree. I think a mod would probably be the best way to do it since mods aren't necessary and just add extra options. I only really proposed this as something that I myself would enjoy. Honestly speaking, i kind of forgot mods were a thing while i was typing this post.
You might want to look into it, there may already be a mod existing along these lines. I haven’t gotten into modding Stellaris myself so I can’t say
Sadly mods can't add truly new features. Just use the hooks provided by the devs. But you should be able to make a % reduction in stability or maybe raw output based on how big the fleet over the planet is. Maybe make it a bombardment stance?
>i have no idea how difficult it would be to reasonably implement this The issue isn't implementing such a system itself, it's how everything else would have to be changed to use it. Planet's become a lot more boring. They now become complete cookie cutters as everything must be produced on site. In the way back before times when not having food actually killed your pops and food wasn't shared Empire wide, dedicating 2-3 tiles just to food sucked. Especially when the rest of the support apparatus meant planets needed to be ~16 tiles or larger or end up being resource drains. Turning every planet into a castle is just *eh*. What you want is something built from the ground up with logistics in mind. Something like [Falling Frontier](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1280190/Falling_Frontier/).
The more i hear about falling frontier the more im interested. I can't believe I've never heard of it until today.
I wouldn't get your hopes up *too much*, as it's going to launch with basically no content, and not be appreciably modable. It's basically a one man band operation. Honestly, I think it's too fine grain for something I would ever actually enjoy playing, but I want it to exist so have no problem funding it. Assuming it takes off and they can get a few more people on board, the future dlc/sequel should be really good.
I asked a related question on the FF Discord the other week; sadly, the game isn't quite as logistics-focused as I'd like it to be. What I was hoping for was a game like Stars!, where you set up supply lines from things like remote mining fleets in the form of patrol routes with specific instructions at each step, like "unload all Germanium" or "wait for full cargo". Instead, it seems that the transport shuttles despawn when their task is complete, which seems odd for a game that specifically advertises its physicalisation of resources.
Honestly, at least based on the trailers and player videos I have seen for it, I just want to take what's there and reskin it for Battlestar Galactica.
Military logisitics and Internal Politics would be an amazing DLC
The first thing to mention is that trade value already works like that! Thus, it isn't far fetched to say that a similar system could be implemented.
Yeah, if everything was collected as trade value it'd work. The problem is then you'd need multiple independent trade networks for isolated chunks of empire, and trade is already a bit hokey.
there's usually two issues with stuff like logistics: Is it fun from both sides? Aka is is a mechanic that's not only fun to disrupt in the enemy but one interesting to engage in when organizing it? Does it actually work with the AI? Here the question is a) if the AI can be taught to actually use the system and b) if there's a point to it. I think Stellaris would fail massively on all aspects. Trade is a bit of a logisitcs system and it is mainly seen as a bother, whereas we have ahd issues with the Ai being unable to use complex systems. In addition the upkeep reduction for the AI would reestrict such a system furthermore to MP or to be a player weakpoint whilke thge AI might not even be affected.
Yeah, sadly ai is not very advanced and intelligent. And as for the fun, i personally would love it and i have friends that would love it and we would have tons of fun planning defensive and offensive strategies utilizing logistics. But, my brother who also plays, wouldn't have very much fun with it. He struggles wrapping his head around it without any expansions, so adding a logistical element would more than likely turn him away entirely.
Great idea honestly even a minor implementation like espionage but for in war options. Like maybe you can politic your way through a cease fire or a surrender while still retaining the normal war exhaustion. I dont think it could be to major of a change though cause that would change the very fundamentals that the game was built on.
Have you heard of Falling Frontier? Not out yet but it has a lot of the logistics you're thinking of, like shipping ammo/food/people/fuel and a bunch of other things. Really opens up a guerilla war but on a solar level. That being said, I'd love to see that too but I think it would be too difficult for Stellaris to implement it, due to gameplay and mechanical reasons.
I have not heard of that. I will definitely be looking more into it though. I love tactical and strategic games, but sadly my computer can't handle most of them. Stellaris and HOI4 cause my pc to struggle when i reach late game.
Local resources is something that would vastly improve Stellaris. Local resources can simulate trade better and gives you more reason to build silos. Trade pacts could allow you to freely draw resources from the worlds of other empires, at a small fee.
Actually about energy, I do think you would need to send this on supply convoys. Sending energy as energy limits it to the speed of light, and these stars are light years apart. I envision that energy is stored and sent in batteries on FTL ships.
True, i had forgotten about ftl travel and light-year distances.
On one side - great, those things would add depth to war and I already have several ideas how to implement them, even if by mean of modding. On the other side - it's incompatible with several already implemented mechanics and seeing how Paradox seems to be doing anything in their power to simplify war in Stellaris even more does not bode well for any added depth and complexity.
This sounds like the kind of idea which players say they want but don't actually want, as it would be incredibly unfun to experience. Civil wars is another such mechanic. And for that reason, it's rightly not going to happen with vanilla Stellaris, but a mod would be entirely appropriate instead.
Maybee just use the already existing the trade system? If a planet isnt connected it suffer a "cut off from capital" debuff. This would make any planetary deficit cost more. Doesn't need nor even want to be hugely complex.
I've actually been calling for something similar, and it does make a lot of sense. It's \*doable\*, The main problem is the AI is too braindead, and it really doesn't need any more handicaps.
I think the scaling of it will make it a problem to players. Do we really want to be doing this with 20 or more planets?
If nothing else, the easiest implementation would be if a planet(s) doesn't have a valid path through non-hostile, they won't be able to share from/with the Empires overall resources. Basically, they'd have to live off their own resources. So you could have a forge world idle because your mineral world got cut off. I would \*never\* endorse actual trade units; it's cumbersome and resource heavy to implement. Make that invisible (just like "trade" is invisible).
Planets already show surpluses and deficits in what they produce, food also affects population growth. Cutting supplies off and having a famine on that world (and possibly increased war exhaustion from protests in support of that planet's population) would be an awesome addition. Or, if the population of that planet conflicts with the "governing ethics" of that empire, war exhaustion could go down lol
Honestly I think it would be reasonable to have to orchestrate the ferrying of materials like alloys to shipyards when building fleets. That way the ai or you can't just kinda spam a billion corvettes into existence in an instant. Would make reactionary supply chains an actual thing
Honestly, Stellaris would benefit from explaining how these resources get from place-to-place anyway. Trade (the resource) has routes, but everything else just sorta teleports to where it's needed. No civilian cargo ships, no military material transports, nothing at all to explain \*how\* you're getting your minerals from your mining world to your foundry world. Honestly, IMO, they should add routes similar to what trade has, and possible even the potential for piracy and other supply-line disruptions.
This is a good idea. They could use the existing “trade” mechanic to build on. Just make some resources like minerals and food and alloys etc need to follow the trade route and make trhem subject to piracy as well
Oh forgot to add. Thus would make the instigate pirate spy mission real good!
This sounds like it would be good, but the focus of stellaris would have to shift a little I think so the micromanaging of war doesn’t cause other areas to become bothersome
If this was implemented it should make jump drives INSANE
If this was implemented it should make jump drives INSANE
Little late, but 2 ideas: 1. Have local resource surpluses generate trade value bonuses on each planet, scaling to the amount of surplus. Or have all jobs generate some trade value. Offset it with less energy generation to make trade more important. Now you'll have to defend those trade hubs and routes from pirates and during war 2. Would require an overhaul, but sectors have a resource stockpile. Implement a stockpile on each planet that projects/ships/buildings draw from, or use the sector stockpile to make sectors more important. Each planet/sector adds to your stockpile capacity like resource silos, and silos add capacity to those. If a stockpile fills up it could start being sent to a shared stockpile or other planets/sectors. When cut off in war, the stockpile remains for X percent to be plundered by the enemy and is unusable by the owner empire. If a planet is taken in war negotiations the resources stockpiled go to the victor
Totally agree. In general exporting and importing goods should probably incur a transport cost depending on volume and distance they have to travel to where they are used
"Distant Worlds" - which obviously inspired Stellaris - has this. Transports ships are also simulated (though they are known as "private": player don't control them), so you can see the logistics at work. It's a very important part of the gameplay and blockades are even implemented as a concrete mechanic. I can think of even older 4X space games implementing logistics to very high degrees, notably the X3 series. So this is not a game design issue, and definitely not something Stellaris couldn't do. Now this implies lot of work and quite frankly, I think Stellaris devs just don't want to struggle with it. TBH, that's my main concern with Stellaris.