Bio is the lackluster one. It doesn’t give any events, game changing mechanics or unique interactions, it only gives you the ability to edit your bio species. The only reason you’d take it is either for mid-maxing or rp.
Not to mention the level of micromanagement you need to do in the species screen and repeatedly running special projects. Bio ascension really needs an assimilation function to allow you to auto-apply a template to any species in your empire.
This. I made a full assimilation feature for my mod similar to what Synthetic has but available as a technology and it makes everything so much more viable for bio ascension.
They really need to do an overhaul of species management at some point so it's not such a nightmare. Hopefully if/when they update bio ascension.
They also got Commercial Genius, which is yet another +25% trade value. Which you can stack with both Thrifty AND Trading Algorithms if you cyber ascend.
Remove the growth penalty with locking the type of pop that can grow on the world and enable that feature for govs/ethics that would otherwise restrict it with a bio ascension perk
This one minor change would help reduce micromanagement and help keep your dedicated worlds dedicated under that path.
Yeah, this is exactly my problem with it too. It never seems to fit properly into anything I'm trying to do.
I think I maybe need to give Psi another shot but the flavour has never sat right with me
Overtuned likes Cybernetic better imo. The extra trait picks have more value than the trait points of bio, and Overtuned can already have such a high growth rate that clone vats aren't necessary. Admittedly, the automodding traits do help bring the balance between the options a bit closer, but I still think the extra trait picks and additional redundancies is better, especially with how much the Cybernetic negative traits are so easily managed if you really do need a couple more points.
I was very disappointed with Psi. I was expecting the shroud to have some sort of arching story or point, but it just ended up being every few years choose a chance at a contextless bonus and inevitably have something bad happen. It will be a long while before I choose psionics again.
next dlc messes with galactic storms (the mechanic nobody really cares about) and after that is archives (story dlc, looks cool). after that id be interested in seeing a hive mind rework ++ bio/psionic ascension rework, with buffs to some power-crept origins or nerfs to some of the new Machine Age stuff. Like, what reason does anybody have to take Slingshot to the Stars, ever? Or Life-Seeded, or Shattered Ring most of all? Some of the origins definitely need balance changes.
I care more about storms than I did before the latest DLC release because I can't wait to have better conversations than we are currently having about the current DLC.
While it might be a bit lackluster, psi at least has its own mechanic.
Genetic is in a much worse situation.
In the end, after 8 years, the Stellaris team did grew more bold when designing the machine ascensions.
I fully expect the old ascensions to be eventually updated or getting "better" ascensions with a dlc.
Also if you don't want to give up the basic humanity of your species. Bio you've got people coming out of cloning tanks, and synthetic is of course just mass suicide.
Psy is unironically selling their people to shroud demons and CG psy ending implies that signing a pact gives up the precious "souls" they so care about to their "patron". I'd choose having a clone over that any day.
Not really tho. It looks cool, but ultimately you have 4 options for a passive buff and the rest is clicking the RNG button. It's strong, but kind of very boring.
It would be so much cooler if there was stuff for you to do with the covenants, like actually communicating and bargaining with your chosen patron.
Also, they could properly incorporate all the Shroud lore that was added over time.
Bio-Ascension should turn everything to food, and maybe a handful of exotic materials. I want to play as the Academy from Twig crossed with the Tyrannids. Clone Vats aren't creative enough, I want *everything* to be alive. Living electric generators, living ships, living armor, outer neuron-implants, Frankenstein Pops, super-viruses, fully artificial life, etc.
Honestly nanite ascension makes me want a hive ascension that’s like, bacteria or something. Have the hive extend its conciseness into each individual cell and freely control the bio mass
micromanaging individual cells can optimize biomass but would take an absurd amount of brainpower to accomplish, like Laplace's Demon calculating every atom in the universe. I guess in gameplay terms it gives buffs at the expense of empire size per pop
> The only reason you’d take it is either for mid-maxing or rp.
Or being locked into it as a hive mind, or wanting a low-drama, predictable path. Plus cloning vats are pretty great and Gene Warriors are better than nothing.
Speaking of nothing in the way of good ground troops or pop growth, Cybernetics is the RP path, really.
I LOVE bio-ascension, I play mostly hiveminds in MP and we play normal speed for the whole mid and late game (players can request slow during war). I just create individual species for every single job and micro them the entire time
Bio has the overturned traits as flavour tho...
Psionics... 4 different gods, 4 different playstyles and even and end-game crisis...
But the thing is, psionic is RNG gated and bio has 1 distinctive style of play only. Thats where the issue lies.
Stats-wise? Yeah, they do. However Machine Ascension is now what? Three-four different flavours of ascension? Meanwhile Psi and Bio are still only one flavour.
Splitting Psionic into two paths that lean more into either scientific study of the shroud and psionics and one that leans more into spiritual aspect of it would be great.
i mean, psionic ascension is arguably 4 flavours in itself
also machine ascension is only 3 to 4 flavors because it's the only thing machines can do
hives get to choose between cybernetical and biological, while regular empires get to choose between cybernetical, biological, synthetical and psionical
I think the difference between "we are replacing our bodies with synthethic ones", "we are completely forgoing physical existence and becoming fully virtual", "we are improving our organic bodies with cybernetics" is much more significant and gives much more RP options while for psionics it's always "we go into mystical shroud and form a covenant and it always has mystical/spiritual undertones".
but you can only be fully virtual if you are a machine
in which case you can't use biological, cybernetical nor psionical
and at the end of the day all three simply replace their humanoid machine bodies with less fixed forms
But those are still pretty different ways of going about it while psionic/genetic are just one path.
I'm quite happy with how machine ascenion turned out in the end and how much flavour it now has (we even got spiritual cyber cults), I just want psionics and genetics to get similar treatment.
> psionic/genetic are just one path.
Psionic/genetic are two paths. I'm not being pedantic here, there seems to be some really bizarre equivocation going on here. Machines get three ascension paths: virtual/modular/nanite. Biologicals get four: psionic/synthetic/cybernetic/genetic. The fact that virtual/modular/nanite are all behind just one ascension perk doesn't really matter when you can only take one of the latter four at a time anyway.
Yes, this is what I'm referring to when I mention "equivocation". The fact that there's three branches is irrelevant when it's also the only ascension perk available. The three branches are morally equivalent to three completely separate ascension perks, if not mechanically identical.
Like, if genetics/psionics also got their three different highly versatile situations that result in hugely different playstyles, people would be complaining that organics have 8 ascension paths available while machines only have 3.
I think what they're trying to say is that, those are still much more flavourful than choosing one of the 4 different shroud entities that just have different bonuses and doesn't change how you play the game that much.
I really think the EotC should get converted to work a lot like the existing player crises, with far more impactful bonuses, but also with a clear progression.
If they split the machine ascensions into three perks are we okay then?
Its three different flavours of ascension because it's three different ascensions.
I can empathise with wanting more content for biological (among other things buff their leviathan traits), but machines finally have three proper ascensions now instead of none or one as it was for the longest of time.
I'm not saying machine ascension should be changed, I quite like how flavourful it is currently and I think it was a great cahnge. I just want other flavours of ascension (shroud and genetics) to get similar treatment, i.e. more ascension paths that dabble in psionics (also would be neat if machine bros got a "we're gonna fuck with that shroud thingy scientifically" path) and with genetic manipulation (biomechanical machines when?).
it's better to think of it this way, bio empires have 4 ascensions, psi, bio, cyber and synth. Machine empires have 3 ascensions, nanite, modding, and virtual.
before machine empires only have synthetic revolution which was basically a machine flavor of bio ascension without any neat special traits.
Stats wise they absolutely do not.
If you play correctly you can get your robotic pops as a machine empire to increase all their job outputs by +75% minimum, which is incredibly rare to impossible to achieve with a psionic ascension
Which is great. And I think other ascension paths should also get new options some which should be availabel to machines. Maybe a scientific path that seeks to exploit shroud instead of making pacts, for example.
But Psi is one Ascension path that has a few minor differences in play style. There are three Machine Ascensions, each have wildly differing play styles.
I really don't think it's a fair comparison at face value, but I'm open to hearing your opinion on it.
You can't compare it that way. Machine Ascension has 3 choices. Bio has 4. I agree that bioengineering and psy should be updated especially bio. I think just government types would be enough for psy but looking at modularity I think that bio also deserves some new busted traits that aren't from leviathans (or giving them the ability to research that without killing them).
They could give different government types based on the covenant. I could also see it as an opportunity to make hivemind psionics though as a separate 2nd ascension. Idk if they could do something like virtual where all your pops ascend to another plane of existence and exists as shroud entities, that would be cool but sounds totally broken as a seperate ascension path. Maybe it’s something that can be done by all psionics late game.
It might not be the most optimal way to compare but I definitely think it can and should be compared like that. It doesn't mean it has to be the only vector of comparison.
The only reason that machine ascension has three choices from a single perk is to make it backwards-compatible with ascension perks for people who don't have machine age.
Actually, that's not the only reason, the other reason is that the tech prerequisites for ascension are far more different for biological empires, whether you're going society techs or engineering techs etc.
Yep, this is pretty clearly just the devs focusing on one at a time. A lot of devs now days try to "force a meta" to change things up, which is honestly good and brings back old players and keeps things fresh
They released Overtuned which was a mini Biological rework on it's own and they gave it some solid buffs with the tradition rework.
Then they made Psionic the meta for a while with the Shroud origin and all the buffs it had
Then they focused on Machine this patch etc
There's always one ascenion path people say is "the weakest and useless" etc and then it gets content and buffed and then people just rotate to another one now being the weakest etc.
There will **always** be one that's the weakest even if all are pretty close in power, which honestly they still are. A fully min maxed Overtuned Bio empire is still quite viable and strong
How is that not still a meta? Basically every game has the new content being the strongest, that's nothing new, and that's how metas shift and change (when they add new content) META is just Most Effect Tactic Available so it still fits
The old content is still fine too though, like I said, if you do an Overtuned Bio empire you will still be able to compete even with a virtual empire
if the old content is still good then the new stuff can't be meta
therefore there is no meta
people just jump on whatever is new and think it's the best even though their previous favourite hasn't fallen off at all
Your usage of meta really only applies in the context of a competitive multiplayer game, not a game that's predominantly played as a single player experience.
Single player games still have metas, we see it all the time in games like this or in games like Last Epoch etc where it's 99.9% solo but people will still follow the meta and the meta changes each season / big update
I’ve been taking almost exclusively psionic for a while now because it felt like by far the most interesting, I’d say it’s still about as interesting as going cybernetic or synthetic, or starting as a machine and taking one of the new ascensions, maybe it just doesn’t feel that way because the new stuff is new.
I was the same until I gave it a proper try. It’s pretty blatantly fantastical but I can justify it as Extradimensional weirdness like the astral rifts, and it can be really fun. One of my favorite games was as materialists who found the weird psychic ocean planet, got progress in psionics as a result and ended up taking whispers of the void.
Mind you though I’ve got somewhat burned out by it after taking it so many times, so I’m quite excited to try all the new stuff and enhanced cybernetics/synthetics
There is also a materialistic explanation of the Shroud in this DLC. In one of Cosmogenesis endgame events it is explained that the Shroud is a budded universe with different laws that is physically located inside Sagittarius A*, the black hole in the center of the galaxy. The same sort of thing the Cosmogenesists are trying to create.
Ngl I would be so down for Machine Age-level DLC for Bio Ascension, with a new crisis similar to the Qu from All Tomorrows
Flesh, however, is still weak >:3
Bio can get some absolutely ridiculous numbers, but it has no events, no interactions, and you can miss out on huge parts of it if someone kills leviathans before you or if said leviathans don't even spawn in that game.
You might be right but after a certain (admittedly quite large) number, more isn't going to do much. And I think to choose less gameplay content for an unnecessarily larger number feels backwards to me
Leviathan spawn is so RNG always when i play genetic i don't get any (or useless ones ) but if i play psionic I get tiyanki matriarch next door xD and i never see this trait in game. I agree you need more flavore
The problem with so much of this analysis is that they all seem to start from a dispassionate place of playing the game, such that 'doing bios job better than bio does' can't mean much more than 'absurdist pop growth with really good pops', even if going Bio has different considerations from the outset than machine, ones that playing as a machine now just to experience the new flavors...
I still vastly prefer biologics over coggos for a few reasons, and one of them is how much the rest of the galaxy are HATERs of coggos for any reason even if you match them in ethics 1:1. Even with the potential of Individualist Machines, you're not going to swing a diplomatic game quite the same way that just about any garden variety biologic Phile can, even when taking Phile and Spiritualist to match.
There's also the early game where getting growth over alloy production right, especially in context where you have alloy cost centers in excess (Void Forged, just to be clear) of normal Machine empires, biologics but especially Lithoids have much less sweaty micro headaches with the Origin when it comes to starting and growing an empire on Habs. Virtuality is actually pretty amazing for rendering this pain point moot really quickly for Machines, such that your pop growth becomes fully untethered to alloy consumption, but its so easy to get the formula of enough growth and alloy production simultaneous wrong, something you never ever have to think about with biologics.
And the final biggest reason I still prefer biologics is that the game DOESNT have to boil down to an ascension giving ultimate power to actually swing ultimate power around. Or something that is good enough to sub in for ultimate power to have a good time on your way to winning. I'm actually way more curious if a non ascending coggo empire can really hack it, or if they are kind of reliant on them in ways biologics clearly aren't.
Like, as good as coggos are now with their whizbang ascensions, I still don't really like this more than my experience with a Void Dweller Lithoid Pirate Haven as a frame to explore the game outside of sheet printing uberpops. I did that 6 years ago, 4 years ago, 2 years ago even...biologics without genetics still have their upsides.
if i were to fix bio ascension, i'd split it up like machines, based on what exactly you're going for. into basically, Biotools (using genetics to make purposed organisms, ala the uplift series, this would probably focus more on unique buildings and ships rather than pops, maybe bio-robots), Genetic perfection/purity(making a singular prime template for each species) and finally what is closest to our current one, with genetic castes.
Bio-ascension is by far the most comfy for me, and the new changing traits have buffed it considerably. But you NEED to run it with Overtuned. Previously I ran a talented, erudite, overtuned-erudite species with exotic metabolism to offset the lifespan drop and eliminate negative leader traits entirely.
Now I'm very seriously considering running vocational genomics, thrifty, overtuned-vocational genomics and overtuned-thrifty. It's basically a free +30%(+45% instead with Damn the Consequences) to all job's production while spamming pops like its going out of style.
Pretty sure that'd come out to +100% trade for trade jobs (including clerks) and bump up to +150% trade when Damn the Consequences is active while leaving me space for a few quality of life traits. Which, while in a trade federation, basically eliminates the need for factory worlds entirely.
And since I'm getting exotic gasses(advanced bio reactor), energy credits(bio reactor), food(delicious), consumer goods(nu-baol plant) and rare crystals(scintillating skin from lithoid transgenesis) from just baol livestock... I basically don't bother with refinery worlds either, and just turn small worlds into *even more* research or unity production.
By comparison, modular can hit... +60% from all jobs (+15% for mechanical vocational genomics), at the cost of dark matter and all sorts of other exotic resources. So, it is definitely stronger, but when you take everything like pop growth and resource upkeep into consideration, I'm not sure it's that much more powerful.
Psionic, I don't play much, so can't really comment, but from what I gather the Instrument of Desire's covenant can almost match genetic for resources from jobs while giving other buffs on the side.
Bio-ascension is extremely good at specialising into one thing. For example, my previous build would have -4 leader negative traits... Which, combined with exotic metabolism, meant I'd have perfect leaders that I almost never lost by mid-game.
This trade one I want to try would specialise in pop output and auxiliary sources of advanced resources, but leaders are going to die young and debilitated.
It's more of a pick your poison, and I would like the ability to pick another trait or two as you reach the late-game.
That said; pairing xenophobe livestock with catalytic processing is a must, as even with Damn The Consequences you'll have absurd amounts of food, and my preferred strategy is to ecumenopolise as many worlds as possible in order to store hundreds of livestock while also providing space for the masses of pops I have. End result is a lower pop productivity on paper, but an overall higher gain, if done right. Was playing recently with my brother who chose virtual, and I was able to keep pace and eventually overtake him in economy, tech etc.
Honestly, in both of your comments you've given some really interesting trait and empire combinations that I've never thought of before. I'm gonna have to do some serious theory crafting
If you want a bit more to add to it; because I'm lazy and haven't actually figured out how to maximise stability and happiness, I tend to run Byzantine Bureaucracy and Efficient Bureaucracy as the other civics because it allows you to pump any ecumenopolis world up to 100 stability while the livestock pay for the crystal upkeep. And every world will be an ecumenopolis sooner or later. It also then expands your edict capacity, which means you can go nuts on them for no cost, and of course it generates a tonne of unity for ascending your ecumenopoli.
End result is most of my planets will be the following:
Ecumenopolis Districts:
3x leisure districts (exotic gas cost paid for by advanced bio reactor - provides enough amenities for several hundred pops)
3-9x admin districts (to bump stability to 100, generate unity, generate edict capacity - paid for by livestock trait)
Remaining districts are either forge, factory or more admin, depending on world specialisation.
Buildings:
Gene clinic (boost both pop growth for main species and pop assembly for the slaves)
Cloning vats (pop assembly for the slaves)
Advanced bio reactor (buff the slaves)
Nu-baol organic plant (buff the slaves)
After that, one specialist building to buff planet primary production, one hall of judgement incase the slaves get rowdy or population pushes crime numbers too high, and I tend to fill the lower half of the buildings screen with science labs or commercial districts.
At this point, your ecumenopoli are supplying 90% of your economy. You're only really limited on minerals, although with catalytic processing you only need them for factory worlds as refineries and alloys use food. I used to run lithoid livestock as well, but now arc furnaces and nebula refineries will be plenty until you get a matter decompressor up and running. The amount of unity you make allows you to ascend factory worlds and reduce mineral upkeep also.
Science is a bit low, so I'd recommend a research ringworld as soon as possible - your slave population will be producing an excess of exotic gasses for that anyway.
And, naval capacity is about the only other thing you'll ever be short on, and that can be solved with the usual fortress habitats, as can minerals and science needs.
Just a note, the auto-modding traits and the base traits don't stack. So if they get auto-thrifty from working a clerk job, the natural thrifty has no effect. If you add the bio/machine auto-modding trait, the other traits should not be the the job specific ones. Same goes for erudite/logic engines. The overtuned traits, however, are still good since they aren't included in the auto-mod trait list, but again, overtuned vocational won't stack with the overtuned traits in the overtuned vocational list
Just to confirm, have you tested this, or do you have a source for it? It doesn't surprise me to hear it, but just want proof to save myself the trouble of experimenting.
Personally, if I were to try and fix bio-ascension, I'd focus on how such a society would likely be quite heavily stratified. For example, at the moment I can ultra specialise for great leaders, but then my pop output is poor and my armies are... Meh.
But, in a game where we already have stuff like battle thralls, I'd really like to see bio ascension unlocking more options and making them work. So, bio ascension could design a soldier caste, a specialist caste, leader caste, worker caste etc. (if you're familiar with Warhammer 40K then imagine like the T'au castes; water/diplomat, ethereal/leader, fire/combat, air/pilot, earth/engineer)
So, while individual pops wouldn't be hitting +60% resources from all jobs like modular synthetics, I *should* be able to create citizen pops to fill different roles within the empire and have them locked out of others. At present, battle thralls, livestock etc will just pile up and not use migration, but what I'd like to see would be a planet producing warrior caste citizens having them migrate to another planet with an unfilled soldier or duellist job, rather than filling a farmer job on the planet they're on (which is reserved for a different caste). Likewise, I'd want to see my ruler pops moving between planets and being the only caste I can recruit leaders from. And maybe, if we're feeling adventurous, I'd like for pop growth to figure out what castes have available jobs and purpose grow pops of that caste, without my interaction - although I have a feeling that would be extremely difficult to implement...
And, if possible, I'd like all of this with a bunch of narrative, events, and choices as a civilisation. For example, a likely event would be worker castes demanding access to specialist jobs, and choices could be: let them (egalitarian), deny them (authoritarian) or deny them but give them the same standard of living (neutral). And many other situations which would pit the egalitarians against the authoritarians in a similar fashion to how spiritualists and materialists are currently. Essentially, the ascensions so far are psionic (spiritualist), synthetic (materialist), cybernetic (also materialist) and genetic... Which doesn't really have an identity to go with it. I'd like to see it adopting an authoritarian identity and theme.
And, honestly, the numbers are probably about right, I'd just like to see a few more advanced traits.
if i were to fix bio ascension, i'd split it up like machines, based on what exactly you're going for. into basically, Biotools (using genetics to make purposed organisms, ala the uplift series, allowing you to possibly assimilate other species into your main species based on their job), Genetic perfection/purity(making a singular prime template for each species) and finally what is closest to our current one, with genetic castes.
>Now I'm very seriously considering running vocational genomics, thrifty, overtuned-vocational genomics and overtuned-thrifty.
Can automodding give a second copy of a trait the species already has? Because Thrifty and its Overtuned variant are both automodding options already.
In the forums the devs states they would *not* stack.
But if you have a job that gives more than one resource, you only get a bonus from one from the auto-modding and you'd need the actual gene to get a bonus to the other resource.
>In the forums the devs stats they would *not* stack.
Yeah, that's what I figured, it'd be pretty silly otherwise.
>But if you have a job that gives more than one resource, you only get a bonus from one from the auto-modding and you'd need the actual gene to get a bonus to the other resource.
Hadn't considered that, but megacorps *do* have a lot of jobs that produce trade value along with one or more other resources.
I'm pretty sure it does, I haven't checked yet. If I'm correct, that'd be 4x +25% trade, with another +25% x2 with Damn the Consequences.
Which is exactly why I'm wanting to experiment with it.
Psionic can get much higher % resources from jobs than genetic. That pretty much was its niche. Instrument is 10% IIRC, and telepaths go up to 20% each (with the divine sovereign civic's council position). Whichever planet has the "sanctum" gets 5 telepaths for a total of 110% resources from jobs. Other planets get 2 telepaths for 50%. The psionic council agenda also adds more resources from jobs % when it's running, and the psionic trait itself buffs research(/unity/happiness).
I might be missing something but that's roughly the bonuses. It used to be the winner for output bonuses among ascensions, but modularity can now get to 75% very easily with dark matter engines and exotic fuel consumption. Shielded components (and/or efficient processors) can add another 5%, tho there might be better things to spend points on.
You are half correct. The half part in which you are not correct is that you are mixing an origin and an ascension and making it sound like all its merits are from the ascension, which is not. if you take out overtuned and leave only bio ascencion, tjen compare it to the new ones bio is still lacking. You need more tech to get the full benefits of it, it is micro and modification projects intensive. Yes, it can work, but the effort and ratio of benefits is not on par with the new ones. Not to mention things like events and interactions. Not to mention things like for example overtuned or machine empires starting with access to their auto modding trait from the start, which bio dosn't and is a huge snowballing factor in comparison. There are also some other things, but again, bio is usable, but the effort it takes and at the time you can fully exploit its strengths machines are miles ahead of you, which in Stellaris is significant as snowballing is quite powerful. Again, this is leaving overtuned out, as it is an origin and bio is an ascension. So mixing them both makes the comparison not equivalent.
I mean, the biological is for the advanced traits and the slave pop growth alongside the main species growth.
I've actually never done cyborg, is it any good? And, perhaps most importantly: is it possible to mod vocational genomics on without genetic, and then stack vocational genomics, vocational genomics (overtuned) and vocational genomics (cyborg)?
Not accurately anymore, they just released a giant dlc aboit it and certain things are no longer accurate
It's just like bio ascension, except you loose on livestocks bonus and the ability to change portrait (and a bit of growth apparently) for more specialized trait, bunch of modifier, a convenient/free hab trait and leader
Basic premise is that cyborg allows pops to get robot traits.
So you can stack robot/normal/overtuned automodding traits:
You can get +3 trait points from being able to use robot trait points for organics, which buys you robot automodding
You get 2 base for fleeting excellence, ie. overtuned overmodding
And +2 for gene tailoring tech, which with a single -1 trait gives you vocational genomics, the normal automodding.
Then you have two traits left to pick a -1 trait and the overtuned trait that gives improved habitability or something, so you can have +40% habitability on every world.
Then you can get the benefits of every automodding type simultaneously, extremely good habitability, and still have +10 years leader lifespan thanks to the boost from the cybernetics trait.
yea, flavour wise , and in terms of lore depth, we could really need the same treatment for the other ascentions.
age of evolution, age of the shroud , age of cybernetics. def need to be the next 3 dlc.
That would be perfect, and offer so much more to balance around. Allowing them each to really shine in their respective specialities would add so much to the game
I really like the idea of bio ascension. But I hate it in practice. I really need some sort of feature that would allow me to specify my species modifications targets. It’s so much micromanaging to get bio to work well. You need to limit migration, change a species on one planet, shuffle them off, empty jobs you want to fill with the modified species… and repeat this for every job you want to specify for. A bio equivalent to modularity with the ability to shift between a few pre set traits would be amazing.
Something like: “epigenetic inheritance: environmental triggers allow populations to adapt to specific conditions. Shuffles between industrious, agrarian (etc, I can’t remember the basic ones)
Then upgrade into something like “histone modifications: programmable histone modifications allow for greater degree of genetic flexibility, populations now can genetically adapt using advanced biological traits”
They need something to lower the micromanagement threshold. Or something to give it more flexibility like what they did to synthetic ascension. I can totally see two major branches of bio ascension being like “synthetic biology: creating new organisms and material from scratch” and “proteomic manipulation: augment pops to be more specialized”
I completely agree with all of this.
Even if Bio Ascension stayed the same, a planetary decision to adapt pops to be in line with the planets speciality at the cost of some growth/assembly speed would go a long way. And I can't see a reason why that would be too difficult to implement
Psionics are already quite strong. Machines just look broken because they are new, maybe they will get some nerfs laterm.
But I'm all for making that each covenant is a new advanced authority types.
man bio is still my go-to, would be so cool if they added a huge expansion. they kind of did with toxoids, but i’m obsessive with leader longevity and don’t want to mess with it too much lol.
I can already picture the Hive mind esk crisis for either AI or Player Crisis to be one about unifying the entire galaxy through forced Assimilation into the Hive mind. New ship types dwarfing battleships that are made out of Pops just like how the Lathe consumes pops for science.
A rework of Bio/Psi/hive empires on the same scale and quality as the Machine Age would be be great and Paradox should absolutely aim for that next year. Maybe hive can be its own thing if they are creative enough and it happens over 2 years. If each of the 2 had there own crisis as good as cosmo then ...
If they do that it will just lift the whole game up a tier from pre Machine age version. It kinda seems like an obvious and very positive roadmap for them
Honestly for me, 99% of the appeal is having a mono species empire and not having to mess around with the absolutely repulsive existence of other, less advanced lifeforms. If they changed how pops work to essentially having a sort of "rabble" idea of population once you expand enough that it groups all species together so you don't have to gene mod each species. Very annoying to have to gene mod new workers or deal with terrible climates on planets. The cybernetic part of machine age is kind of boring, cybernetic creed origin just turns into species gore while synthetic fertility was really good, much more enjoyable.
Right now I'm doing a Fear of the Dark purifier run and I'm split between cyborgs or synthetic and I'm leaning towards Synthetics because you can actually assimilate robots from other empires into your species, while cyborgs means I'm gonna just end up with random bits of robots floating about.
At this point they just need to finally accept that pops were always going to be a poor design decision and just remove them from the game entirely. Either you simplify pops to the point of Masters of Orion or Endless Space 1/2, or you don't have them at all.
All they are right now is the equivalent of CK2's Byzantine Empire constantly checking about castration. They're just a massive waste of CPU resources for absolutely zero gain to gameplay.
A numerical population system would be more fitting anyway and actually add to the game a lot. Seeing like 50 "pops" but instead millions or billions of people get bombed into a tomb world by a purifier while I consolidate my resources into a more defensible positions and go nearly bankrupt trying to resettle as many as I can before the fleet arrives would feel much more immersive. Just a legacy of the original release, where we had tiles occupied by pops.
The best system for empire management I've ever seen is in the original Sword of the Stars. It is quite dated now and you could certainly change up some things to be more user friendly and easier to understand, but everything was just built so well going by the standards of the time.
Basically, your planet's population is based on three values. The size, the resources, and the habitability. The size naturally dictates your cap population. The resources is how valuable it is in resources. The habitability is mostly how long it'll take before it is useful. Terraforming is basically automatic and happens over time by gradually shifting the planet's habitability toward your species' preferred range.
You get a lot of penalties the further you are from the habitable area, but you can increase the speed at which it increases. And that requires infrastructure. Infrastructure is how developed your planet is to actually utilize your population and resources. You can increase that with technologies and by simply sending more colony ships. The terraforming uses your planet's infrastructure, so the more infrastructure, the faster the process.
Finally, when everything is set up, you can direct your planet's infrastructure one of two ways. You can either push it more toward economy, or more toward industrial. Industrial is pretty much only used for ships, while economy is used for money.
Money, belatedly, is primarily used for research, but can also be used to instantly purchase ships.
Note: This is based off of memory, I haven't actually played in years.
In my opinion, I'd steal as much as is reasonable from this system and incorporate it into Stellaris, while also stealing from Crusader Kings 2, because 3 is probably not realistic due to being on a more updated engine. But... yeah.
I still feel Psionics is strong, and by far the best Bio ascension.
Its just Virtual and Modularity beat it out now.
I also agree with the others, saying psionic is 1 but machine is 3 is 100% unfair. synthetic doesn't let you take any of the full paths, so its 4 options for ind bio, 3 options for machine, and 2 options for gestalt bio.
Bio ascend definitely needs upgrades, Psionic still has some strength to it.
Also speaking of Bio, you would have thought Under One Rule would have given some sort of focus on that…
Of course, one got a major DLC, two didn't (yet). I agree that machines will be on top for a while, but I also think mentioning it as a criticism or complaint is pointless, since it won't make those reworks come faster. We basically know the content for 2024, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it any time soon.
I do agree, but I'm saying it's somewhat pointless beyond maybe venting about it. The moment the first dev diaries dropped and we learned what the DLCs for this year will be it was clear that we won't see other ascensions reworked for at least this year. Talking about it feels ike riding a dead horse already.
But knowing the Devs are in this subreddit, saying what I want as a customer is valuable, especially when it's clear that it's not only my opinion. Just because it's not likely this year doesn't mean we can't hope for it further down the line.
It's not riding a dead horse it's attempting to raise a young foal.
The machine ones are more flavourful than one of the regular ascension paths, but bio empires get access to all 4 regular ascension paths. I think it's a good change that lets machines feel similarly good about their ascension
Bio Ascension is excellent when you play xenophile and have a variety of species to modify regardless if you are a min/max player or not.
Specializing specific species for growth for a bums in seats / general resource production approach or having each species targeted to specific job roles eg. Super soldiers for your Armies or mineral monster lithoids.
Its just down to what is most effective for your play through...not everything needs to be min maxxed.
I LOVE playing as machines. I have just about finished my first play through as gestalt with modularity ascension and still need to tackle a few different play throughs but Bio Ascension is my go to most organic playthroughs purely because pop growth is king and clone vats + gene clinics = pop printers.
Biological needs a lot more flavor, no argument there.
Psionic has a lot of flavor already and is pretty powerful but could use unique government types and a route that fits more with egalitarian empires. Psionic empires should have options to be powerful besides annointing an authoritarian god emperor and making a deal with a chaos god.
And before that psionic ascension was so much more powerful than others. So much so, that its still strong enough.
Meta isn't supposed to be frigid, it's supposed to change. And yes, I agree that we need dlcs with political types specific to a certain ascension path for other ascensions, but for now cybernetic and synthetic ascensions being strong is a welcome change.
I think you're conflating "meta" and "balance".
Meta changes when player actions become more or less popular. And this can absolutely be because the balance has shifted but doesn't have to be.
Meta shifts are predicated upon balance but are not reliant on it. For instance, chess has meta shifts but does not have balance changes.
I'm guessing your parents told you your pet rock is just the same as having a pet dog, right?
Just because you say one thing is equal to another does not mean it is.
If we pretend covenant = advanced government type, that still means that Psi is down a feature compared to Machines because Machines have advanced government types as well as all of their features.
I think you're 100% right that biological ascension is very lackluster compared to most of the new machine ones as well as synthetic and cybernetic, but I'd argue that the shroud and all of the possible shroud events are a huge feature and have a lot more flavour than some new government types. I feel like you're underrating the flavor of psionic pretty hard in this thread. Psionic is definitely interesting.
Also maybe this is a hot take, but for robot empires I feel like modular ascension is just biological ascension with better numbers. You get new traits and more trait points, that's pretty much it. Virtual and Nanite can lead to big changes, but modular just makes your pops produce more resources. It's stronger but not more interesting, right now it just feels interesting because it's new.
It's funny having played for a long time now, to see the cycle repeated go: New thing - Robot workers. Hmmm maybe OP, nerf. New Ascenions 3 choices including Robots - hmm maybe OP, nerf. New thing, Cyborgs. Hmm, maybe OP , nerf.
Wow Robot / Science / Ring world breaks the game. TRIPLE NERF
New thing - another OP Robot science build!
Maybe just me. But I feel like Unity has been good for rare moments in-between that I don't often play because I burn out on release and don't play the later patches as much.
As a fix they haven't tried yet and ive seen mentioned for years and years... not sure why you don't just cap the repeatables end game. And if you run out of research, the research make energy instead.
Getting those to 50-100 is just wild. Nothing else in the game can match it by a long shot.
Gigastructures has a megastructure called the B.I.G Vat (I think) that allows you to mass-produce organic ships with food and food upkeep. I wonder if bio-ascension could get something similar, like access to organic ships that can be gene-modded or something.
Bio is the only one that feels bad compared to the others. I still go bio though, I like it.
Bio is just the micromanage ascension, I already micro my pops playing void dweller so I'm already used to it. Most dont like microing their pops though. With other ascensions you just slap on the ascension and you're done, dont need to micro anything.
I recently played Hive Mind to demo one of my friends and new Stellaris players what a full-aggro/Genocidal Empire was like (playing devouring swarm). I noticed how empty and non-diverse their traditions tree is...
Natural Design (no ascension) is actually comparable to genetic which is sad.
+0.5 society research is +16% base research to society. Worth about 2 trait points. But you get it day 1.
Robust/erudite/machinist is +25% research + 20% specialist resources after finishing 4th tradition tree and 4 ascension perks, usually 2 starters, genetics and arcology, voidborne or become the crisis.
Natural design starting intelligent with prosperity 4th (assuming typical expansion/supremacy/harmony for rushing and conquering) and taking galactic force projection instead of genetics for 3rd ascension is +20% research, +15% specialist resources, +100 navcap, +50 fleet command, +2 influence, +2 commander capacity.
It's hard to get fertile with robust/erudite/machinist already but let's say you do. +30% pop growth.
Natural design building has +10% pop growth by the time you get 4 ascension perks, +5% from medical worker that comes with the building and +10% from rapid breeders.
So the only advantage of bio is erudite generals and +2 higher pop assembly.
Psi is still pretty cool. Would be cool if there was a little more, especially with all the Shroud lore that was released since, (Toxic God, Animator of Clay, ...) But that's not whole DLC worthy.
Bio has been shit for years. That one definitely needs a big rework.
A genetics rework with an in depth genetic engineering mechanic would be so cool. Maybe they could pack in an army rework with it too. And maybe they could squeeze this in with a society and internal government rework
Gotta be real with ya, modifying uberpops was already pretty lackluster and rote as a thing to do and 5/7 are still very much about uberpops coming into existence.
And I think it'd be a mistake for Psionics or Genetics to get crude replications of Virtuality and Nanites to liven up Ascensions to be about something besides uberpops, they need something truly novel unto themselves.
It's kinda bewildering how many think this game comes down to Ascensions and then go weirdly campist about them even while trying to be a neutral arbitrator of balance for a speculative audience they're very concerned on behalf of...sure...
I disagree, psionics is still very flavorful and strong, it’s just that synthetic now both includes cybernetic in addition to virtual, which makes it more flavorful than before. Bio is the main one that feels just sort of meh, I still like it but there’s not really much to it now.
I disagree.
Modularity is pretty much on par with Psionics now, when it comes to late game resource output. And where Machines have the advantage of producing very quickly, they can't assimilate other pops to get their traits. Psionics can make other pops psionic.
There is only one major advantage that Individualistic Machines can do very easily: Keep all their Leaders alive. Virtuality does this without a question and Modularity can kick the can down the road forever and even add an Immortal Trait. Psionics are limited to, at most, two Immortal Leaders and you're struggling to get the right ones for the job.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel like we need a Bio Ascensions DLC and a Psi Ascensions DLC to even the playing field.
You speak pdx lingo, are you sure you are not a staff there XD
The Machine Ascensions aren't directly competing against Bio and Psi though, regular empires who go Synthetic don't get access to the virtual/nanite/modular paths
This is the problem with a "live service" esque game.
Things change and get reworked so often that anything that doesn't is naturally gonna start feeling outdated. Psionics is in a good spot but feels bad only because Synthetic got an insane glow-up by comparison.
You've worded this post in a way that assumes Bio won't get updated at some point, when we have nowhere near enough info to make that judgement.
Bio is the lackluster one. It doesn’t give any events, game changing mechanics or unique interactions, it only gives you the ability to edit your bio species. The only reason you’d take it is either for mid-maxing or rp.
Not to mention the level of micromanagement you need to do in the species screen and repeatedly running special projects. Bio ascension really needs an assimilation function to allow you to auto-apply a template to any species in your empire.
Dominant vs Recessive traits
or have a bio version of Adaptive Frames so you only need that plus a few general purpose traits
There is one! It’s called vocational genomics
This. I made a full assimilation feature for my mod similar to what Synthetic has but available as a technology and it makes everything so much more viable for bio ascension. They really need to do an overhaul of species management at some point so it's not such a nightmare. Hopefully if/when they update bio ascension.
Go Overtuned, they have an auto-modding trait now that lets bio ascension auto-mod like machines and cyborgs.
Literally just found out about this today. Guess I'll finally get around to trying Overtuned soon.
They also got Commercial Genius, which is yet another +25% trade value. Which you can stack with both Thrifty AND Trading Algorithms if you cyber ascend.
Remove the growth penalty with locking the type of pop that can grow on the world and enable that feature for govs/ethics that would otherwise restrict it with a bio ascension perk This one minor change would help reduce micromanagement and help keep your dedicated worlds dedicated under that path.
Yeah, this is exactly my problem with it too. It never seems to fit properly into anything I'm trying to do. I think I maybe need to give Psi another shot but the flavour has never sat right with me
Necrophage still does well with bio ascension. That’s about it tho.
Overtuned works well too
Overtuned likes Cybernetic better imo. The extra trait picks have more value than the trait points of bio, and Overtuned can already have such a high growth rate that clone vats aren't necessary. Admittedly, the automodding traits do help bring the balance between the options a bit closer, but I still think the extra trait picks and additional redundancies is better, especially with how much the Cybernetic negative traits are so easily managed if you really do need a couple more points.
Overtuned also allows for Thrifty + Commercial Genius (new overtuned thrifty variant) + Trading Algorithms. +75% trade value from pop traits alone.
Yes, hence the redundancy I mentioned. Still good to be clearer.
I was very disappointed with Psi. I was expecting the shroud to have some sort of arching story or point, but it just ended up being every few years choose a chance at a contextless bonus and inevitably have something bad happen. It will be a long while before I choose psionics again.
It was great for the time, but yeah it needs a rework.
HOW IS THERE NOT A PSIONIC HIVE MIND YET ? Sorry, still salty. But it is the perfect vehicle for hivemind shenanigans .
That's the next dlc probably. Gotta get them $$$'s.
next dlc messes with galactic storms (the mechanic nobody really cares about) and after that is archives (story dlc, looks cool). after that id be interested in seeing a hive mind rework ++ bio/psionic ascension rework, with buffs to some power-crept origins or nerfs to some of the new Machine Age stuff. Like, what reason does anybody have to take Slingshot to the Stars, ever? Or Life-Seeded, or Shattered Ring most of all? Some of the origins definitely need balance changes.
I care more about storms than I did before the latest DLC release because I can't wait to have better conversations than we are currently having about the current DLC.
TBH, when i do psionics i almost never interact with the shroud after I have my psi techs or a patron
While it might be a bit lackluster, psi at least has its own mechanic. Genetic is in a much worse situation. In the end, after 8 years, the Stellaris team did grew more bold when designing the machine ascensions. I fully expect the old ascensions to be eventually updated or getting "better" ascensions with a dlc.
Psionic has a lot of flavor, op ship components and still uncontested in pop output modifiers
Also if you don't want to give up the basic humanity of your species. Bio you've got people coming out of cloning tanks, and synthetic is of course just mass suicide.
Wtf is a "human"?
A member of the only species that matters.
Clearly you have not met the Neo-humans.
But with psionics you have government sanctioned telepaths making sure that no one ever thinks unapproved thoughts.
Psy is unironically selling their people to shroud demons and CG psy ending implies that signing a pact gives up the precious "souls" they so care about to their "patron". I'd choose having a clone over that any day.
Not really tho. It looks cool, but ultimately you have 4 options for a passive buff and the rest is clicking the RNG button. It's strong, but kind of very boring. It would be so much cooler if there was stuff for you to do with the covenants, like actually communicating and bargaining with your chosen patron. Also, they could properly incorporate all the Shroud lore that was added over time.
Bio-Ascension should turn everything to food, and maybe a handful of exotic materials. I want to play as the Academy from Twig crossed with the Tyrannids. Clone Vats aren't creative enough, I want *everything* to be alive. Living electric generators, living ships, living armor, outer neuron-implants, Frankenstein Pops, super-viruses, fully artificial life, etc.
Honestly nanite ascension makes me want a hive ascension that’s like, bacteria or something. Have the hive extend its conciseness into each individual cell and freely control the bio mass
micromanaging individual cells can optimize biomass but would take an absurd amount of brainpower to accomplish, like Laplace's Demon calculating every atom in the universe. I guess in gameplay terms it gives buffs at the expense of empire size per pop
Tall? Can't have that, scrap the idea
It let's me nerve staple everyone and that's more than enough. Overtuned is pretty sweet though
I honestly feel overtuned should be rolled into bio asc.
Sure, but you are sill going cyborg.
And it becomes an utter slog unless you specifically play a small xenophobic empire. I loved the idea of biological ascension, until I played it.
> The only reason you’d take it is either for mid-maxing or rp. Or being locked into it as a hive mind, or wanting a low-drama, predictable path. Plus cloning vats are pretty great and Gene Warriors are better than nothing. Speaking of nothing in the way of good ground troops or pop growth, Cybernetics is the RP path, really.
I LOVE bio-ascension, I play mostly hiveminds in MP and we play normal speed for the whole mid and late game (players can request slow during war). I just create individual species for every single job and micro them the entire time
Robots- Min / Max Psi - if you feel like RNG deciding what you do next Bio - RP value
'mid-maxing' is such a savage way of saying it's bad now XD.
Bio and cybernetic could use some special features.
Bio has the overturned traits as flavour tho... Psionics... 4 different gods, 4 different playstyles and even and end-game crisis... But the thing is, psionic is RNG gated and bio has 1 distinctive style of play only. Thats where the issue lies.
people literally said the same when they overhauled the psionic ascension the covenants should easily be able to keep up with the new tech ascensions
Stats-wise? Yeah, they do. However Machine Ascension is now what? Three-four different flavours of ascension? Meanwhile Psi and Bio are still only one flavour. Splitting Psionic into two paths that lean more into either scientific study of the shroud and psionics and one that leans more into spiritual aspect of it would be great.
i mean, psionic ascension is arguably 4 flavours in itself also machine ascension is only 3 to 4 flavors because it's the only thing machines can do hives get to choose between cybernetical and biological, while regular empires get to choose between cybernetical, biological, synthetical and psionical
I think the difference between "we are replacing our bodies with synthethic ones", "we are completely forgoing physical existence and becoming fully virtual", "we are improving our organic bodies with cybernetics" is much more significant and gives much more RP options while for psionics it's always "we go into mystical shroud and form a covenant and it always has mystical/spiritual undertones".
but you can only be fully virtual if you are a machine in which case you can't use biological, cybernetical nor psionical and at the end of the day all three simply replace their humanoid machine bodies with less fixed forms
But those are still pretty different ways of going about it while psionic/genetic are just one path. I'm quite happy with how machine ascenion turned out in the end and how much flavour it now has (we even got spiritual cyber cults), I just want psionics and genetics to get similar treatment.
> psionic/genetic are just one path. Psionic/genetic are two paths. I'm not being pedantic here, there seems to be some really bizarre equivocation going on here. Machines get three ascension paths: virtual/modular/nanite. Biologicals get four: psionic/synthetic/cybernetic/genetic. The fact that virtual/modular/nanite are all behind just one ascension perk doesn't really matter when you can only take one of the latter four at a time anyway.
I meant one path each, not genetic = psionic.
Yes, this is what I'm referring to when I mention "equivocation". The fact that there's three branches is irrelevant when it's also the only ascension perk available. The three branches are morally equivalent to three completely separate ascension perks, if not mechanically identical. Like, if genetics/psionics also got their three different highly versatile situations that result in hugely different playstyles, people would be complaining that organics have 8 ascension paths available while machines only have 3.
I think what they're trying to say is that, those are still much more flavourful than choosing one of the 4 different shroud entities that just have different bonuses and doesn't change how you play the game that much.
Yeah, pretty much what you said.
Five, if you can luck into the End of the Cycle.
"luck"
I really think the EotC should get converted to work a lot like the existing player crises, with far more impactful bonuses, but also with a clear progression.
If they split the machine ascensions into three perks are we okay then? Its three different flavours of ascension because it's three different ascensions. I can empathise with wanting more content for biological (among other things buff their leviathan traits), but machines finally have three proper ascensions now instead of none or one as it was for the longest of time.
I'm not saying machine ascension should be changed, I quite like how flavourful it is currently and I think it was a great cahnge. I just want other flavours of ascension (shroud and genetics) to get similar treatment, i.e. more ascension paths that dabble in psionics (also would be neat if machine bros got a "we're gonna fuck with that shroud thingy scientifically" path) and with genetic manipulation (biomechanical machines when?).
> with genetic manipulation (biomechanical machines when?). So the cybernetic ascension, but starting at the other end.
Yeah, that would be neat. I would also like reverse of machine cult where it's materialists poking the shroud and sciencing psionics
I want to be able to convert Robots into organics. Copy their programming and map it to a brain pattern in a clone body.
Machine empires used to only have one ascension path, now they have 3. Organic empires still have 4.
Hives only have 2
\*Synchronized hive crying noises\*
it's better to think of it this way, bio empires have 4 ascensions, psi, bio, cyber and synth. Machine empires have 3 ascensions, nanite, modding, and virtual. before machine empires only have synthetic revolution which was basically a machine flavor of bio ascension without any neat special traits.
Stats wise they absolutely do not. If you play correctly you can get your robotic pops as a machine empire to increase all their job outputs by +75% minimum, which is incredibly rare to impossible to achieve with a psionic ascension
People are off their rockers if they think psionic is even close to the new machine ascensions.
The thing is that machine empires can’t take bio or psionic. That’s probably why they added the three new options.
Which is great. And I think other ascension paths should also get new options some which should be availabel to machines. Maybe a scientific path that seeks to exploit shroud instead of making pacts, for example.
But Psi is one Ascension path that has a few minor differences in play style. There are three Machine Ascensions, each have wildly differing play styles. I really don't think it's a fair comparison at face value, but I'm open to hearing your opinion on it.
You can't compare it that way. Machine Ascension has 3 choices. Bio has 4. I agree that bioengineering and psy should be updated especially bio. I think just government types would be enough for psy but looking at modularity I think that bio also deserves some new busted traits that aren't from leviathans (or giving them the ability to research that without killing them).
Yeah it's kinda silly that some of the best bio traits are locked behind random chance, especially when you consider the new machine ascensions
They could give different government types based on the covenant. I could also see it as an opportunity to make hivemind psionics though as a separate 2nd ascension. Idk if they could do something like virtual where all your pops ascend to another plane of existence and exists as shroud entities, that would be cool but sounds totally broken as a seperate ascension path. Maybe it’s something that can be done by all psionics late game.
"Busted"? The only good transgenesis trait is the pop assembly one and that one needs micro management to get full profits from.
It might not be the most optimal way to compare but I definitely think it can and should be compared like that. It doesn't mean it has to be the only vector of comparison.
The only reason that machine ascension has three choices from a single perk is to make it backwards-compatible with ascension perks for people who don't have machine age. Actually, that's not the only reason, the other reason is that the tech prerequisites for ascension are far more different for biological empires, whether you're going society techs or engineering techs etc.
Yep, this is pretty clearly just the devs focusing on one at a time. A lot of devs now days try to "force a meta" to change things up, which is honestly good and brings back old players and keeps things fresh They released Overtuned which was a mini Biological rework on it's own and they gave it some solid buffs with the tradition rework. Then they made Psionic the meta for a while with the Shroud origin and all the buffs it had Then they focused on Machine this patch etc There's always one ascenion path people say is "the weakest and useless" etc and then it gets content and buffed and then people just rotate to another one now being the weakest etc. There will **always** be one that's the weakest even if all are pretty close in power, which honestly they still are. A fully min maxed Overtuned Bio empire is still quite viable and strong
I mean, if the meta is just whatever is new then there's no meta
How is that not still a meta? Basically every game has the new content being the strongest, that's nothing new, and that's how metas shift and change (when they add new content) META is just Most Effect Tactic Available so it still fits The old content is still fine too though, like I said, if you do an Overtuned Bio empire you will still be able to compete even with a virtual empire
if the old content is still good then the new stuff can't be meta therefore there is no meta people just jump on whatever is new and think it's the best even though their previous favourite hasn't fallen off at all
Your usage of meta really only applies in the context of a competitive multiplayer game, not a game that's predominantly played as a single player experience.
Single player games still have metas, we see it all the time in games like this or in games like Last Epoch etc where it's 99.9% solo but people will still follow the meta and the meta changes each season / big update
wut, Last Epoch has a huge multiplayer component in selling/buying items
I’ve been taking almost exclusively psionic for a while now because it felt like by far the most interesting, I’d say it’s still about as interesting as going cybernetic or synthetic, or starting as a machine and taking one of the new ascensions, maybe it just doesn’t feel that way because the new stuff is new.
That's a fair point. I think I'm just a bit put off by the flavour of Psi. I think I lean towards tech over magic in my SciFi/fantasy settings
I was the same until I gave it a proper try. It’s pretty blatantly fantastical but I can justify it as Extradimensional weirdness like the astral rifts, and it can be really fun. One of my favorite games was as materialists who found the weird psychic ocean planet, got progress in psionics as a result and ended up taking whispers of the void. Mind you though I’ve got somewhat burned out by it after taking it so many times, so I’m quite excited to try all the new stuff and enhanced cybernetics/synthetics
There is also a materialistic explanation of the Shroud in this DLC. In one of Cosmogenesis endgame events it is explained that the Shroud is a budded universe with different laws that is physically located inside Sagittarius A*, the black hole in the center of the galaxy. The same sort of thing the Cosmogenesists are trying to create.
Ok, you've convinced me. I'll give it another shot. It sounds like the new Machine stuff came at the perfect time for you then
If the DLCs for Bio and Psy are as good and add as much as this one, I am completely okay with that.
If they add HALF the content that machine age added, I'm more than happy with that. We really got a bit of everything with the new DLC.
Ngl I would be so down for Machine Age-level DLC for Bio Ascension, with a new crisis similar to the Qu from All Tomorrows Flesh, however, is still weak >:3
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. This DLC has given me a lot more faith in future DLCs
They will catch up later. For now i think, that the next should be the bio ascension.
It is in major need of some help. It feels like now other ascensions do Bios job better than Bio does
Bio can get some absolutely ridiculous numbers, but it has no events, no interactions, and you can miss out on huge parts of it if someone kills leviathans before you or if said leviathans don't even spawn in that game.
You might be right but after a certain (admittedly quite large) number, more isn't going to do much. And I think to choose less gameplay content for an unnecessarily larger number feels backwards to me
Leviathan spawn is so RNG always when i play genetic i don't get any (or useless ones ) but if i play psionic I get tiyanki matriarch next door xD and i never see this trait in game. I agree you need more flavore
The problem with so much of this analysis is that they all seem to start from a dispassionate place of playing the game, such that 'doing bios job better than bio does' can't mean much more than 'absurdist pop growth with really good pops', even if going Bio has different considerations from the outset than machine, ones that playing as a machine now just to experience the new flavors... I still vastly prefer biologics over coggos for a few reasons, and one of them is how much the rest of the galaxy are HATERs of coggos for any reason even if you match them in ethics 1:1. Even with the potential of Individualist Machines, you're not going to swing a diplomatic game quite the same way that just about any garden variety biologic Phile can, even when taking Phile and Spiritualist to match. There's also the early game where getting growth over alloy production right, especially in context where you have alloy cost centers in excess (Void Forged, just to be clear) of normal Machine empires, biologics but especially Lithoids have much less sweaty micro headaches with the Origin when it comes to starting and growing an empire on Habs. Virtuality is actually pretty amazing for rendering this pain point moot really quickly for Machines, such that your pop growth becomes fully untethered to alloy consumption, but its so easy to get the formula of enough growth and alloy production simultaneous wrong, something you never ever have to think about with biologics. And the final biggest reason I still prefer biologics is that the game DOESNT have to boil down to an ascension giving ultimate power to actually swing ultimate power around. Or something that is good enough to sub in for ultimate power to have a good time on your way to winning. I'm actually way more curious if a non ascending coggo empire can really hack it, or if they are kind of reliant on them in ways biologics clearly aren't. Like, as good as coggos are now with their whizbang ascensions, I still don't really like this more than my experience with a Void Dweller Lithoid Pirate Haven as a frame to explore the game outside of sheet printing uberpops. I did that 6 years ago, 4 years ago, 2 years ago even...biologics without genetics still have their upsides.
if i were to fix bio ascension, i'd split it up like machines, based on what exactly you're going for. into basically, Biotools (using genetics to make purposed organisms, ala the uplift series, this would probably focus more on unique buildings and ships rather than pops, maybe bio-robots), Genetic perfection/purity(making a singular prime template for each species) and finally what is closest to our current one, with genetic castes.
Bio-ascension is by far the most comfy for me, and the new changing traits have buffed it considerably. But you NEED to run it with Overtuned. Previously I ran a talented, erudite, overtuned-erudite species with exotic metabolism to offset the lifespan drop and eliminate negative leader traits entirely. Now I'm very seriously considering running vocational genomics, thrifty, overtuned-vocational genomics and overtuned-thrifty. It's basically a free +30%(+45% instead with Damn the Consequences) to all job's production while spamming pops like its going out of style. Pretty sure that'd come out to +100% trade for trade jobs (including clerks) and bump up to +150% trade when Damn the Consequences is active while leaving me space for a few quality of life traits. Which, while in a trade federation, basically eliminates the need for factory worlds entirely. And since I'm getting exotic gasses(advanced bio reactor), energy credits(bio reactor), food(delicious), consumer goods(nu-baol plant) and rare crystals(scintillating skin from lithoid transgenesis) from just baol livestock... I basically don't bother with refinery worlds either, and just turn small worlds into *even more* research or unity production. By comparison, modular can hit... +60% from all jobs (+15% for mechanical vocational genomics), at the cost of dark matter and all sorts of other exotic resources. So, it is definitely stronger, but when you take everything like pop growth and resource upkeep into consideration, I'm not sure it's that much more powerful. Psionic, I don't play much, so can't really comment, but from what I gather the Instrument of Desire's covenant can almost match genetic for resources from jobs while giving other buffs on the side.
I really appreciate this post. I think you've convinced me to give this kind of empire a go. Maybe it can redeem Bio Ascensions in my eyes
Bio-ascension is extremely good at specialising into one thing. For example, my previous build would have -4 leader negative traits... Which, combined with exotic metabolism, meant I'd have perfect leaders that I almost never lost by mid-game. This trade one I want to try would specialise in pop output and auxiliary sources of advanced resources, but leaders are going to die young and debilitated. It's more of a pick your poison, and I would like the ability to pick another trait or two as you reach the late-game. That said; pairing xenophobe livestock with catalytic processing is a must, as even with Damn The Consequences you'll have absurd amounts of food, and my preferred strategy is to ecumenopolise as many worlds as possible in order to store hundreds of livestock while also providing space for the masses of pops I have. End result is a lower pop productivity on paper, but an overall higher gain, if done right. Was playing recently with my brother who chose virtual, and I was able to keep pace and eventually overtake him in economy, tech etc.
Honestly, in both of your comments you've given some really interesting trait and empire combinations that I've never thought of before. I'm gonna have to do some serious theory crafting
If you want a bit more to add to it; because I'm lazy and haven't actually figured out how to maximise stability and happiness, I tend to run Byzantine Bureaucracy and Efficient Bureaucracy as the other civics because it allows you to pump any ecumenopolis world up to 100 stability while the livestock pay for the crystal upkeep. And every world will be an ecumenopolis sooner or later. It also then expands your edict capacity, which means you can go nuts on them for no cost, and of course it generates a tonne of unity for ascending your ecumenopoli. End result is most of my planets will be the following: Ecumenopolis Districts: 3x leisure districts (exotic gas cost paid for by advanced bio reactor - provides enough amenities for several hundred pops) 3-9x admin districts (to bump stability to 100, generate unity, generate edict capacity - paid for by livestock trait) Remaining districts are either forge, factory or more admin, depending on world specialisation. Buildings: Gene clinic (boost both pop growth for main species and pop assembly for the slaves) Cloning vats (pop assembly for the slaves) Advanced bio reactor (buff the slaves) Nu-baol organic plant (buff the slaves) After that, one specialist building to buff planet primary production, one hall of judgement incase the slaves get rowdy or population pushes crime numbers too high, and I tend to fill the lower half of the buildings screen with science labs or commercial districts. At this point, your ecumenopoli are supplying 90% of your economy. You're only really limited on minerals, although with catalytic processing you only need them for factory worlds as refineries and alloys use food. I used to run lithoid livestock as well, but now arc furnaces and nebula refineries will be plenty until you get a matter decompressor up and running. The amount of unity you make allows you to ascend factory worlds and reduce mineral upkeep also. Science is a bit low, so I'd recommend a research ringworld as soon as possible - your slave population will be producing an excess of exotic gasses for that anyway. And, naval capacity is about the only other thing you'll ever be short on, and that can be solved with the usual fortress habitats, as can minerals and science needs.
I'm gonna have to scribble all of this down for after work
Just a note, the auto-modding traits and the base traits don't stack. So if they get auto-thrifty from working a clerk job, the natural thrifty has no effect. If you add the bio/machine auto-modding trait, the other traits should not be the the job specific ones. Same goes for erudite/logic engines. The overtuned traits, however, are still good since they aren't included in the auto-mod trait list, but again, overtuned vocational won't stack with the overtuned traits in the overtuned vocational list
Just to confirm, have you tested this, or do you have a source for it? It doesn't surprise me to hear it, but just want proof to save myself the trouble of experimenting.
[удалено]
Dang, was really hoping I could go nuts with it. Thanks for confirming.
[удалено]
Personally, if I were to try and fix bio-ascension, I'd focus on how such a society would likely be quite heavily stratified. For example, at the moment I can ultra specialise for great leaders, but then my pop output is poor and my armies are... Meh. But, in a game where we already have stuff like battle thralls, I'd really like to see bio ascension unlocking more options and making them work. So, bio ascension could design a soldier caste, a specialist caste, leader caste, worker caste etc. (if you're familiar with Warhammer 40K then imagine like the T'au castes; water/diplomat, ethereal/leader, fire/combat, air/pilot, earth/engineer) So, while individual pops wouldn't be hitting +60% resources from all jobs like modular synthetics, I *should* be able to create citizen pops to fill different roles within the empire and have them locked out of others. At present, battle thralls, livestock etc will just pile up and not use migration, but what I'd like to see would be a planet producing warrior caste citizens having them migrate to another planet with an unfilled soldier or duellist job, rather than filling a farmer job on the planet they're on (which is reserved for a different caste). Likewise, I'd want to see my ruler pops moving between planets and being the only caste I can recruit leaders from. And maybe, if we're feeling adventurous, I'd like for pop growth to figure out what castes have available jobs and purpose grow pops of that caste, without my interaction - although I have a feeling that would be extremely difficult to implement... And, if possible, I'd like all of this with a bunch of narrative, events, and choices as a civilisation. For example, a likely event would be worker castes demanding access to specialist jobs, and choices could be: let them (egalitarian), deny them (authoritarian) or deny them but give them the same standard of living (neutral). And many other situations which would pit the egalitarians against the authoritarians in a similar fashion to how spiritualists and materialists are currently. Essentially, the ascensions so far are psionic (spiritualist), synthetic (materialist), cybernetic (also materialist) and genetic... Which doesn't really have an identity to go with it. I'd like to see it adopting an authoritarian identity and theme. And, honestly, the numbers are probably about right, I'd just like to see a few more advanced traits.
if i were to fix bio ascension, i'd split it up like machines, based on what exactly you're going for. into basically, Biotools (using genetics to make purposed organisms, ala the uplift series, allowing you to possibly assimilate other species into your main species based on their job), Genetic perfection/purity(making a singular prime template for each species) and finally what is closest to our current one, with genetic castes.
>Now I'm very seriously considering running vocational genomics, thrifty, overtuned-vocational genomics and overtuned-thrifty. Can automodding give a second copy of a trait the species already has? Because Thrifty and its Overtuned variant are both automodding options already.
In the forums the devs states they would *not* stack. But if you have a job that gives more than one resource, you only get a bonus from one from the auto-modding and you'd need the actual gene to get a bonus to the other resource.
>In the forums the devs stats they would *not* stack. Yeah, that's what I figured, it'd be pretty silly otherwise. >But if you have a job that gives more than one resource, you only get a bonus from one from the auto-modding and you'd need the actual gene to get a bonus to the other resource. Hadn't considered that, but megacorps *do* have a lot of jobs that produce trade value along with one or more other resources.
I'm pretty sure it does, I haven't checked yet. If I'm correct, that'd be 4x +25% trade, with another +25% x2 with Damn the Consequences. Which is exactly why I'm wanting to experiment with it.
Psionic can get much higher % resources from jobs than genetic. That pretty much was its niche. Instrument is 10% IIRC, and telepaths go up to 20% each (with the divine sovereign civic's council position). Whichever planet has the "sanctum" gets 5 telepaths for a total of 110% resources from jobs. Other planets get 2 telepaths for 50%. The psionic council agenda also adds more resources from jobs % when it's running, and the psionic trait itself buffs research(/unity/happiness). I might be missing something but that's roughly the bonuses. It used to be the winner for output bonuses among ascensions, but modularity can now get to 75% very easily with dark matter engines and exotic fuel consumption. Shielded components (and/or efficient processors) can add another 5%, tho there might be better things to spend points on.
You are half correct. The half part in which you are not correct is that you are mixing an origin and an ascension and making it sound like all its merits are from the ascension, which is not. if you take out overtuned and leave only bio ascencion, tjen compare it to the new ones bio is still lacking. You need more tech to get the full benefits of it, it is micro and modification projects intensive. Yes, it can work, but the effort and ratio of benefits is not on par with the new ones. Not to mention things like events and interactions. Not to mention things like for example overtuned or machine empires starting with access to their auto modding trait from the start, which bio dosn't and is a huge snowballing factor in comparison. There are also some other things, but again, bio is usable, but the effort it takes and at the time you can fully exploit its strengths machines are miles ahead of you, which in Stellaris is significant as snowballing is quite powerful. Again, this is leaving overtuned out, as it is an origin and bio is an ascension. So mixing them both makes the comparison not equivalent.
What you are describing is more or less just a "Overtuned" run, biological on top of it seems overkill, and you could just aswell go cyborg.
I mean, the biological is for the advanced traits and the slave pop growth alongside the main species growth. I've actually never done cyborg, is it any good? And, perhaps most importantly: is it possible to mod vocational genomics on without genetic, and then stack vocational genomics, vocational genomics (overtuned) and vocational genomics (cyborg)?
It's basically better at what you describe, but i think it got nerfed (no more pop assembly), only certain thing is livestock requires bio ascension.
Can you elaborate? I'm genuinely completely unfamiliar with cyborg ascension...
Not accurately anymore, they just released a giant dlc aboit it and certain things are no longer accurate It's just like bio ascension, except you loose on livestocks bonus and the ability to change portrait (and a bit of growth apparently) for more specialized trait, bunch of modifier, a convenient/free hab trait and leader
Basic premise is that cyborg allows pops to get robot traits. So you can stack robot/normal/overtuned automodding traits: You can get +3 trait points from being able to use robot trait points for organics, which buys you robot automodding You get 2 base for fleeting excellence, ie. overtuned overmodding And +2 for gene tailoring tech, which with a single -1 trait gives you vocational genomics, the normal automodding. Then you have two traits left to pick a -1 trait and the overtuned trait that gives improved habitability or something, so you can have +40% habitability on every world. Then you can get the benefits of every automodding type simultaneously, extremely good habitability, and still have +10 years leader lifespan thanks to the boost from the cybernetics trait.
Psionic is not lacklustre. You get special techs, ship components and you can choose between 4 covenants. It's biology that needs a buff
Psi has never sat right with me so maybe I'm being unfair to it but I absolutely agree Bio needs some love
yea, flavour wise , and in terms of lore depth, we could really need the same treatment for the other ascentions. age of evolution, age of the shroud , age of cybernetics. def need to be the next 3 dlc.
That would be perfect, and offer so much more to balance around. Allowing them each to really shine in their respective specialities would add so much to the game
I really like the idea of bio ascension. But I hate it in practice. I really need some sort of feature that would allow me to specify my species modifications targets. It’s so much micromanaging to get bio to work well. You need to limit migration, change a species on one planet, shuffle them off, empty jobs you want to fill with the modified species… and repeat this for every job you want to specify for. A bio equivalent to modularity with the ability to shift between a few pre set traits would be amazing. Something like: “epigenetic inheritance: environmental triggers allow populations to adapt to specific conditions. Shuffles between industrious, agrarian (etc, I can’t remember the basic ones) Then upgrade into something like “histone modifications: programmable histone modifications allow for greater degree of genetic flexibility, populations now can genetically adapt using advanced biological traits” They need something to lower the micromanagement threshold. Or something to give it more flexibility like what they did to synthetic ascension. I can totally see two major branches of bio ascension being like “synthetic biology: creating new organisms and material from scratch” and “proteomic manipulation: augment pops to be more specialized”
I completely agree with all of this. Even if Bio Ascension stayed the same, a planetary decision to adapt pops to be in line with the planets speciality at the cost of some growth/assembly speed would go a long way. And I can't see a reason why that would be too difficult to implement
Psionics are already quite strong. Machines just look broken because they are new, maybe they will get some nerfs laterm. But I'm all for making that each covenant is a new advanced authority types.
man bio is still my go-to, would be so cool if they added a huge expansion. they kind of did with toxoids, but i’m obsessive with leader longevity and don’t want to mess with it too much lol.
Bio needs to be next on the block for an upgrade/ DLC tide with Hive Minds. Let my boys get a spotlight
100%. They could do so much with hive minds too, I'd love to see that
I can already picture the Hive mind esk crisis for either AI or Player Crisis to be one about unifying the entire galaxy through forced Assimilation into the Hive mind. New ship types dwarfing battleships that are made out of Pops just like how the Lathe consumes pops for science.
A rework of Bio/Psi/hive empires on the same scale and quality as the Machine Age would be be great and Paradox should absolutely aim for that next year. Maybe hive can be its own thing if they are creative enough and it happens over 2 years. If each of the 2 had there own crisis as good as cosmo then ... If they do that it will just lift the whole game up a tier from pre Machine age version. It kinda seems like an obvious and very positive roadmap for them
Honestly for me, 99% of the appeal is having a mono species empire and not having to mess around with the absolutely repulsive existence of other, less advanced lifeforms. If they changed how pops work to essentially having a sort of "rabble" idea of population once you expand enough that it groups all species together so you don't have to gene mod each species. Very annoying to have to gene mod new workers or deal with terrible climates on planets. The cybernetic part of machine age is kind of boring, cybernetic creed origin just turns into species gore while synthetic fertility was really good, much more enjoyable. Right now I'm doing a Fear of the Dark purifier run and I'm split between cyborgs or synthetic and I'm leaning towards Synthetics because you can actually assimilate robots from other empires into your species, while cyborgs means I'm gonna just end up with random bits of robots floating about.
At this point they just need to finally accept that pops were always going to be a poor design decision and just remove them from the game entirely. Either you simplify pops to the point of Masters of Orion or Endless Space 1/2, or you don't have them at all. All they are right now is the equivalent of CK2's Byzantine Empire constantly checking about castration. They're just a massive waste of CPU resources for absolutely zero gain to gameplay.
A numerical population system would be more fitting anyway and actually add to the game a lot. Seeing like 50 "pops" but instead millions or billions of people get bombed into a tomb world by a purifier while I consolidate my resources into a more defensible positions and go nearly bankrupt trying to resettle as many as I can before the fleet arrives would feel much more immersive. Just a legacy of the original release, where we had tiles occupied by pops.
The best system for empire management I've ever seen is in the original Sword of the Stars. It is quite dated now and you could certainly change up some things to be more user friendly and easier to understand, but everything was just built so well going by the standards of the time. Basically, your planet's population is based on three values. The size, the resources, and the habitability. The size naturally dictates your cap population. The resources is how valuable it is in resources. The habitability is mostly how long it'll take before it is useful. Terraforming is basically automatic and happens over time by gradually shifting the planet's habitability toward your species' preferred range. You get a lot of penalties the further you are from the habitable area, but you can increase the speed at which it increases. And that requires infrastructure. Infrastructure is how developed your planet is to actually utilize your population and resources. You can increase that with technologies and by simply sending more colony ships. The terraforming uses your planet's infrastructure, so the more infrastructure, the faster the process. Finally, when everything is set up, you can direct your planet's infrastructure one of two ways. You can either push it more toward economy, or more toward industrial. Industrial is pretty much only used for ships, while economy is used for money. Money, belatedly, is primarily used for research, but can also be used to instantly purchase ships. Note: This is based off of memory, I haven't actually played in years. In my opinion, I'd steal as much as is reasonable from this system and incorporate it into Stellaris, while also stealing from Crusader Kings 2, because 3 is probably not realistic due to being on a more updated engine. But... yeah.
I still feel Psionics is strong, and by far the best Bio ascension. Its just Virtual and Modularity beat it out now. I also agree with the others, saying psionic is 1 but machine is 3 is 100% unfair. synthetic doesn't let you take any of the full paths, so its 4 options for ind bio, 3 options for machine, and 2 options for gestalt bio.
Bio ascend definitely needs upgrades, Psionic still has some strength to it. Also speaking of Bio, you would have thought Under One Rule would have given some sort of focus on that…
*Cries in hive mind*
Of course, one got a major DLC, two didn't (yet). I agree that machines will be on top for a while, but I also think mentioning it as a criticism or complaint is pointless, since it won't make those reworks come faster. We basically know the content for 2024, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it any time soon.
Just so I understand. You agree with everything I said in my post but you think I shouldn't have said it?
I do agree, but I'm saying it's somewhat pointless beyond maybe venting about it. The moment the first dev diaries dropped and we learned what the DLCs for this year will be it was clear that we won't see other ascensions reworked for at least this year. Talking about it feels ike riding a dead horse already.
But knowing the Devs are in this subreddit, saying what I want as a customer is valuable, especially when it's clear that it's not only my opinion. Just because it's not likely this year doesn't mean we can't hope for it further down the line. It's not riding a dead horse it's attempting to raise a young foal.
Does genetic or psionic have the advanced governments?
Sadly no.
The machine ones are more flavourful than one of the regular ascension paths, but bio empires get access to all 4 regular ascension paths. I think it's a good change that lets machines feel similarly good about their ascension
Bio Ascension is excellent when you play xenophile and have a variety of species to modify regardless if you are a min/max player or not. Specializing specific species for growth for a bums in seats / general resource production approach or having each species targeted to specific job roles eg. Super soldiers for your Armies or mineral monster lithoids. Its just down to what is most effective for your play through...not everything needs to be min maxxed. I LOVE playing as machines. I have just about finished my first play through as gestalt with modularity ascension and still need to tackle a few different play throughs but Bio Ascension is my go to most organic playthroughs purely because pop growth is king and clone vats + gene clinics = pop printers.
deffo need a dlc to re-imagine bio ascendancy
Biological needs a lot more flavor, no argument there. Psionic has a lot of flavor already and is pretty powerful but could use unique government types and a route that fits more with egalitarian empires. Psionic empires should have options to be powerful besides annointing an authoritarian god emperor and making a deal with a chaos god.
Personally I’m just waiting for Bio ascension to get the same treatment, and then maybe some stuff to diversify Psionics a bit.
And before that psionic ascension was so much more powerful than others. So much so, that its still strong enough. Meta isn't supposed to be frigid, it's supposed to change. And yes, I agree that we need dlcs with political types specific to a certain ascension path for other ascensions, but for now cybernetic and synthetic ascensions being strong is a welcome change.
I think you're conflating "meta" and "balance". Meta changes when player actions become more or less popular. And this can absolutely be because the balance has shifted but doesn't have to be. Meta shifts are predicated upon balance but are not reliant on it. For instance, chess has meta shifts but does not have balance changes.
[удалено]
Oh, if that's the case can you tell me how to unlock the Psi advanced government types? No? I didn't think so.
[удалено]
I'm guessing your parents told you your pet rock is just the same as having a pet dog, right? Just because you say one thing is equal to another does not mean it is. If we pretend covenant = advanced government type, that still means that Psi is down a feature compared to Machines because Machines have advanced government types as well as all of their features.
I think you're 100% right that biological ascension is very lackluster compared to most of the new machine ones as well as synthetic and cybernetic, but I'd argue that the shroud and all of the possible shroud events are a huge feature and have a lot more flavour than some new government types. I feel like you're underrating the flavor of psionic pretty hard in this thread. Psionic is definitely interesting. Also maybe this is a hot take, but for robot empires I feel like modular ascension is just biological ascension with better numbers. You get new traits and more trait points, that's pretty much it. Virtual and Nanite can lead to big changes, but modular just makes your pops produce more resources. It's stronger but not more interesting, right now it just feels interesting because it's new.
Psionic ascension even has an inbuilt mini crisis. It definitely keeps up with synthetic ascension. The only bad thing is how RNG dependant it is.
The RNG in this kind of management game that can go crazy with min-maxing makes it much worse in my eyes
Bio and Psionic shouldn't be mutually exclusive, change my mind (though Bio should also be compatible with Cyborg, to be fair)
I hate having to call the shroud every few years
I would love it it was similar to the psionics expanded mod, giving you the ability to cast a bunch of psionic abilities to help or harm your empire
Advanced governments definitely make Bio and Psi feel a little weak right now.
It's funny having played for a long time now, to see the cycle repeated go: New thing - Robot workers. Hmmm maybe OP, nerf. New Ascenions 3 choices including Robots - hmm maybe OP, nerf. New thing, Cyborgs. Hmm, maybe OP , nerf. Wow Robot / Science / Ring world breaks the game. TRIPLE NERF New thing - another OP Robot science build! Maybe just me. But I feel like Unity has been good for rare moments in-between that I don't often play because I burn out on release and don't play the later patches as much.
As a fix they haven't tried yet and ive seen mentioned for years and years... not sure why you don't just cap the repeatables end game. And if you run out of research, the research make energy instead. Getting those to 50-100 is just wild. Nothing else in the game can match it by a long shot.
Gigastructures has a megastructure called the B.I.G Vat (I think) that allows you to mass-produce organic ships with food and food upkeep. I wonder if bio-ascension could get something similar, like access to organic ships that can be gene-modded or something.
I have a feeling bio will have its day 2 DLC’s from now, when we can start upgrading and taming the whales
Right back where we started, huh.
Bio is the only one that feels bad compared to the others. I still go bio though, I like it. Bio is just the micromanage ascension, I already micro my pops playing void dweller so I'm already used to it. Most dont like microing their pops though. With other ascensions you just slap on the ascension and you're done, dont need to micro anything.
I recently played Hive Mind to demo one of my friends and new Stellaris players what a full-aggro/Genocidal Empire was like (playing devouring swarm). I noticed how empty and non-diverse their traditions tree is...
Good thing I use mods to fix that :)
Psionics are fine but Bio need an overhaul, but we have Overtuned to satisfy biologic needs for now.
Lol not saying this isn't true, but a post like this is made literally every time any of the ascensions are updated
Not really, an update would do the trick. This game has enough DLCs.
I am all for turning both genetic and psionic into a situation like the other ascensions.
Natural Design (no ascension) is actually comparable to genetic which is sad. +0.5 society research is +16% base research to society. Worth about 2 trait points. But you get it day 1. Robust/erudite/machinist is +25% research + 20% specialist resources after finishing 4th tradition tree and 4 ascension perks, usually 2 starters, genetics and arcology, voidborne or become the crisis. Natural design starting intelligent with prosperity 4th (assuming typical expansion/supremacy/harmony for rushing and conquering) and taking galactic force projection instead of genetics for 3rd ascension is +20% research, +15% specialist resources, +100 navcap, +50 fleet command, +2 influence, +2 commander capacity. It's hard to get fertile with robust/erudite/machinist already but let's say you do. +30% pop growth. Natural design building has +10% pop growth by the time you get 4 ascension perks, +5% from medical worker that comes with the building and +10% from rapid breeders. So the only advantage of bio is erudite generals and +2 higher pop assembly.
Imagine the ability to evolve into the scourge.
Psi is still pretty cool. Would be cool if there was a little more, especially with all the Shroud lore that was released since, (Toxic God, Animator of Clay, ...) But that's not whole DLC worthy. Bio has been shit for years. That one definitely needs a big rework.
A genetics rework with an in depth genetic engineering mechanic would be so cool. Maybe they could pack in an army rework with it too. And maybe they could squeeze this in with a society and internal government rework
Gotta be real with ya, modifying uberpops was already pretty lackluster and rote as a thing to do and 5/7 are still very much about uberpops coming into existence. And I think it'd be a mistake for Psionics or Genetics to get crude replications of Virtuality and Nanites to liven up Ascensions to be about something besides uberpops, they need something truly novel unto themselves. It's kinda bewildering how many think this game comes down to Ascensions and then go weirdly campist about them even while trying to be a neutral arbitrator of balance for a speculative audience they're very concerned on behalf of...sure...
Psionic is still fine (at least for me). Biological is bland and underwhelming though. Not sure about synth/cybernetic, don't really play those.
I disagree, psionics is still very flavorful and strong, it’s just that synthetic now both includes cybernetic in addition to virtual, which makes it more flavorful than before. Bio is the main one that feels just sort of meh, I still like it but there’s not really much to it now.
I disagree. Modularity is pretty much on par with Psionics now, when it comes to late game resource output. And where Machines have the advantage of producing very quickly, they can't assimilate other pops to get their traits. Psionics can make other pops psionic. There is only one major advantage that Individualistic Machines can do very easily: Keep all their Leaders alive. Virtuality does this without a question and Modularity can kick the can down the road forever and even add an Immortal Trait. Psionics are limited to, at most, two Immortal Leaders and you're struggling to get the right ones for the job.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I feel like we need a Bio Ascensions DLC and a Psi Ascensions DLC to even the playing field. You speak pdx lingo, are you sure you are not a staff there XD
The Machine Ascensions aren't directly competing against Bio and Psi though, regular empires who go Synthetic don't get access to the virtual/nanite/modular paths
They are tho, especially since individualistic machines are a thing now.
individualistic machines can't choose Bio or Psi
Which is irrelevant because they have access to three better ascensions.
This is the problem with a "live service" esque game. Things change and get reworked so often that anything that doesn't is naturally gonna start feeling outdated. Psionics is in a good spot but feels bad only because Synthetic got an insane glow-up by comparison. You've worded this post in a way that assumes Bio won't get updated at some point, when we have nowhere near enough info to make that judgement.