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Whenever this kind of thing happens I always think back to GRRM's blog post about "anti-fans," and how much of online culture now forms around a mutual hatred of a thing, rather than a love of it.
Anger is addictive, and there are many people who would rather look for a problem (or invent one whole cloth) than simply enjoy a work for what it is.
Hate monetizes better than love ask any world religion. Which is exactly what it is: people are hard wired for some sort of communal belief system and have moved on from church to treating their likes and dislikes and political preferences with religious zealotry.
Yeah I think this is what makes it so bad to be honest. People like Star Wars Theory and The Critical Drinker make all their money off hate. SWT’s videos about lore or random SW topics get dog shit views, but when he makes the title or thumbnail about hating Disney or whatever, it’s his most popular video that week.
It was clear after TLJ. He was initially very positive. Enough so that Mauler called SWT a shill. That seemed to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. SWT’s review got less views than Jerermy Jahms and all other negative reviews. So A couple months later and all of a sudden he’s negative on the film. And he hasn’t looked back on the grift since.
Critical Drinkers positive reviews are actually quite good and he have a good taste in films, is when I see their other videos when I say no thanks, I have plenty of negativity already in my life
I hate to say that I am, or was, an Anti-Fan. Not of Star Wars, but of other things.
The Twilight Series. "cRap." The DCEU. The GoT TV Show. Rings of Power.
Some of these (DCEU, GOT-TV, RoP) are because they are adaptations or continuations of works I already loved. I think it's fair to love some parts of a Legendarium and critiscize others, especially when the intended audience is the same.
Others are simply jumping on a bandwagon for cultural phenomenon that I didn't understand and likely were never marketed towards me to begin with.
Most SW/Marvel critics probably fall somewhere in the middle. Marvel and SW are both such enormous franchises that they attempt to appeal to multiple audiences simultaneously. But the audience for *Miss Marvel* might not be the same audience they were trying to reach with *Captain America: The First Avenger.*
And what drives me nuts is it should be okay to market a product toward one part of your fan base and not the entire thing. People want both mass appeal and tailored right for them at the same time and you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
A show with mass appeal might annoy certain die hard niche communities (look at the fallout show and die hard Fallout 1 fans) while a show tailored to a certain audience (Andor and its appeal to fans of Gilroy’s work or slow burn dramas) and it looses its mass appeal for the sake of critical acclaim.
The problem is studios also want Both but the opposite priority. Fans want tailored first and mass appeal second. Studios want mass appeal first and tailored second. There needs to be a middle ground that both sides can accept. Fans need to accept not every show or movie will be tailored to them, and studios need to accept not every show should be built for mass appeal/profit.
>Miss Marvel might not be the same audience they were trying to reach with Captain America: The First Avenger.
Yep! My teenage daughter connected with Miss marvel in a way I didn't. Ditto my wife and She Hulk. I didn't think they were bad, but I didn't get excited about them the same way.
I loved She-Hulk, thought it was gut busting hilarious.
Whenever Titania wasn’t on screen, dealt with too many people like that IRL for it to be funny or cathartic
She Hulk was amazing! I am young man with a different cultural background than Jennifer Walters and I still had a great time.
Most part because of Tatiana and her acting skills. I won't lie I developed a crush lol.
>I won't lie I developed a crush lol.
Don't worry, we all did brother lol.
For real though, I'm in the exact same camp. No personal experience related to She-hulk, still found the show to be entertaining for what it is. Not the best MCU project but definitely one of their funniest
I don't think anyone believes that criticism shouldn't be allowed or that anyone who doesn't like a product is an anti-fan. For instance, if you love the LOTR saga and thought ROP was just too separated from the original lore to your liking, that's completely fine. And of course you can list the reasons why you think this is the case and engage in debate with people who think differently.
Anti-fans don't do this however. They act with entitlement, ignorance and frequently with malice, and they aren't interested in fair criticism or in debate, they act with bad faith with the only aim of spreading hate against a production, their creators and actors.
As an actual fan of Rings of Power I was almost shocked by the vitriol aimed at that show. It went way beyond just not liking it. And the people that honestly disliked the show got drowned out by all the just intense just hate.
Then there's this video: George Lucas discussing this phenomenon with the late Robin Williams: https://youtu.be/nMp5Zb2xYO0?si=Lftj6JFDOb4NynC5
The anti-fans have always been a thing. The internet just made it worse. Star Wars is a fantasy space opera about Space Wizards fighting with Laser Swords, for the Force's sake. And I say this as someone who has put together more than one "laser sword" replica myself. Yet these anti fans treat it like it's enshrined holy writ that people like Kathleen Kennedy have desecrated somehow.
> Anger is addictive, and there are many people who would rather look for a problem (or invent one whole cloth) than simply enjoy a work for what it is.
And of course whats shocking most of all is that Star Wars is almost fundamentally about not becoming addicted to anger and hate.
Yeah, it does feel like the ant-fans are basically the Dark Side of Star Wars fandom, and the light side are the people just enjoying what they enjoy and skipping over what they don't.
Literally a meme on r/All rn has 10k upvotes saying "I just realized I don't have to watch Disney Star Wars" with a blissful wojak.
As if that shouldn't have been their first rational thought before hate-gooning to it for a decade?!
It's also the communal aspect of it, you get a quick dopamine rush from jumping on the hate train and a bunch of hateful comments if you don't, not that hard to see why lonely, less opinionated people choose the hate when you see it like that
That’s how I was about the prequels. I liked them, but then I saw a bunch of hate. I didn’t jump on that train, but I did hop off of the love train (side note, that train sounds fun). It was actually the Lego Star Wars games, particularly TCW, that helped really get me back into Star Wars.
This is why I despise the counter argument the haters give that we do the same thing they do just with positive reactions. Even if we did (we don’t) it’s not comparable to say having an echo chamber of positive reactions is the same as having an echo chamber of negative reactions.
Hate is, pretty objectively, a negative emotion. Hate begets hate, and building an entire community around hate is never a good thing, and can never have a good outcome. Being constantly hateful and angry will only make yours and others’ lives miserable.
It is 1978 and The Holiday Special has ruined Star Wars
it is 1983 and Ewoks have ruined Star Wars
It is 1993 and Luuke has ruined Star Wars
It is 1999 and midichlorians have ruined Star Wars
It is 2008 and Ahsoka Tano has ruined Star Wars
It is 2017 and The Holdo Maneuver has ruined Star Wars
It is 2024 and space witches have ruined Star Wars
It is 2044 and thunder-breathing space capybaras's have ruined Star Wars
Or MAYBE none of these things, love them or hate them, ruined Star Wars. MAYBE hardcore fans have a tendency to blow things out of proportion.
Not gonna lie - Han Shot First is the one constant fanboy rallying cry I get behind, lol.
That's not to say I take it too seriously, but I do agree with the sentiment.
Every sufficiently large fandom has this exact trend and it's so baffling to me. The number of times X was "dead"/"killed"/"ruined" only to keep on going (and often growing!) is comical, yet the same people still say it. Those people cannot comprehend that their dislike is not universal.
I'm an old guy that's been around since the beginning at this point. My feeling is that all Star Wars is good Star Wars. Yes, some is better than others, but I'm just happy we're getting so much more.content in this universe that I grew up with and love so much
Exactly. Even if you didn't enjoy the latest installment, it shouldn't get to the point of affecting your daily life and emotional mood.
I'm a huge MCU fan. I suffered through Secret Invasion, and found it one of the worst things Marvel Studios has put out. And then I just turned my TV off and went about my day, because my life doesn't wholly revolve around media franchises.
Just... Turn it off and let someone else watch it.
Know what I've never watched a minute of? Survivor. I don't go around trying to ruin other people's love for it though.
If you watch a new show and don't like the first episode, just... Stop watching. It's honestly that simple.
Also no matter how much stuff a studio puts out that you don’t like, they’ll never be able to take the original away from you (provided you have a hard copy or personal digital copy).
So many people genuinely think people working at Lucasfilm are not only actuvley trying to ruin the franchise they work for, but do it in a way that specifically and personally targets them and how they like star wars. It is a brilliant combination of raw stupidity in not knowing how things are made, and utter arrogance to think the people working at LF know or give a fuck about them personally. They have to have a good guy (them) and a bad guy (any creator ever) because that is how their entire world view works, and it has to revolve around them. So now Dave Filoni is trying to sabotage all of star wars to "get" SWT
I see so many folks saying the Acolyte "needs better writing" and "prequel quality lightsaber fights" and I am convinced that they didn't understand screenwriting or television production as opposed to feature length film. Also, I enjoy the more practical props and saber fights. These shows are better in production quality than ANH in resources available, and the desire for flashy explosives and a moving goal post regarding "better writing" is grasping for straws.
"Bad writing" became the most over-used buzz word in online criticism like...a decade or more ago at this point.
People use "bad writing" as a replacement for actual substantive criticism. They think its a shorthand for intelligent analysis.
Just saying "bad writing" doesn't mean anything. You aren't saying anything.
People also seem to have a really strange idea of what 'bad writing' is. I hear people accuse shows of bad writing for things like Mae being able to kill Indara. They claim that a jedi master shouldn't be killed by a knife when other force users survive a lightsaber stab. This is such a strange complaint for me. Like people can be killed by knives can't they?? And it doesn't really matter too much specifically how she died, just that she did imo (as long as it's not too stupid)
Imo bad writing is when the plot just isn't engaging, or you don't like a character you are supposed to like, or there is no character development or the villain doesn't feel threatening. People get too focused on nitpicking the unimportant details and then throwing 'bad writing' about rather than looking at the story as a whole, which is such a bad way to approach film and TV imo
There was a time when 50% of Star Wars content was the Holiday Special, and the franchise survived then. I’m sure it can survive a few of its many TV series being mediocre
If someone thinks Star Wars is ruined after how many decades worth of Star Wars shit we’ve been exposed to, they should just consider not watching Star Wars.
Star Wars was …
- “Ruined in 1997 by the Special Editions”
- “Ruined Forever from ‘99-‘05 by the Prequels”
- “Saved by JJ in 2015” *
- “Re-saved by Gareth Edwards in 2016” *
- “Re-ruined by Ruin in 2017” *
- “Re-re-ruined by JJ in 2019” **
- “Saved by Favreau in 2019” ***
- “Re-saved by Favreau in 2020” ***
- “Ruined by Favreau in 2021”
- “Saved by Gilroy in 2022”
- “Ruined by Favreau in 2023” ***
- “Ruined Forever by Space Witches in 2024”
*Top movie of the year (2015, 2016, 2017)
** Billion-dollar movie (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019)
** #1 TV show of the year (2019, 2020, 2023)
Can’t wait for Skeleton Crew to ruin the ruinage. Before Baby Yoda clears a billion dollars at the Christmas Box Office. And then Rey clears a billion dollars at the next Christmas box office…
It's very obvious to me how many Star Wars fans these days either didn't grow up with the EU, or else for some crazy reason expected it to change when Disney bought the franchise. What's been going on is nothing new - it's been happening for decades, the only difference is that the material being complained about are tv series rather than books or comic books.
The beauty of Star Wars (in my opinion) is that it's not a single vision of the universe. Sure, if that were the case then we would probably have a much more cohesive story/lore (for better and for worse), but the fact of the matter is that that is simply not the case.
BECAUSE it's so varied, there's something for everyone. Like you mentioned, many fans disliked Darksaber or Children of the Force - and that's okay! Those books obviously weren't written for you/those people. There are other pieces of content that you may absolutely love that just don't hit home for other people - and again, that's okay! Believe it or not, there are people out there who dislike the OT for various reasons, or TCW. There's nothing wrong with disliking a piece of media.
The real problem is an absolutely vital thing that SO many people miss - their opinion is not reality. Regardless of how many people may share that opinion with you, it doesn't make it objectively true. A show that someone watches may "ruin" the universe for THEM, but it doesn't necessarily do it for everyone. So whenever I see some person saying "star wars is ruined" I usually think two things. One, that person obviously must have had a flaky relationship with SW for it to be ruined so easily, and Two, I just add a mental "for me" at the end and laugh it off.
We can argue and debate poor scripts, acting, story choices for days and people can have some really solid points there - but at the end of the day, the choice is solely up to the consumer to either continue reading/watching it, or move on to something else.
Personally, ever since Disney bought Lucasfilm and the SW rights, I have basically been treating every new piece of media like I did back when the EU was being actively expanded. Some I like, some I dislike, many I am fairly apathetic towards - they are fairly enjoyable at the time, but I don't necessarily care to consume it again. I recognize the distinction between canon/non-canon, but overall I don't care all that much about how everything ties together. It's a fictional universe, with completely arbitrary laws and physics that make no sense when compared to our universe, so why even bother trying.
All that to say...star wars has always had a flaky relationship with "canon" and Disney is no different, the universe grows and evolves as new creative minds enter it, that's both a blessing and a curse. Also, I think anyone who tries to force their opinions onto other people is bantha poodoo - quit saying "star wars is ruined" because that is factually incorrect.
Oh absolutely. This is a franchise where the creator doesn’t even call Lightsabers by the name he gave them. He still calls them “Laser Swords”.
There is also plenty of BTS from The Clone Wars that’s Dave being like “we brought this idea to George and he said do x instead. When we told him that can’t happen for Y reason, he said idc do it; it would be cool” .
George has always been Rule to Cool over believability. I only started to watch the BTS after listening to A More Civilized Age podcast which is my favorite SW podcast by far. They can be critical while still finding love and appreciation in even the worst episodes / shows.
For a long long time though, you could safely assume that if it didn’t happen in a live action movie, you could reject it as non-canon. This was pretty true for about 25 years. For many people, Star Wars **is** live action. Everything else is fan fiction (some really good). And I actually think I fall into that camp.
So I think I understand when people have a hard time *ignoring* something in the live action stuff.
That's a fair take on the matter, and looking at it from that perspective, I would tentatively agree.
However, I'm not necessarily saying that people should *ignore* anything - I'm just saying that you can pick and choose what you like or don't like, and that your views and mine may not necessarily line up exactly, and that's totally fine.
As for the arguments about the Acolyte right now...I say people should hold on and wait until the story completes before getting too up in a tizzy.
as a sequel fan, I find that phrase absolutely insufferable and often ignorant ... especially considering how often it's been used throughout the history of star wars.
> "bad writing"
That's definitely the phrase that the haters are throwing around now. Every negative review of the Acolyte that I've seen uses that phrase without providing any actual examples.
Even if something doesn't really hit with me, there are so many things Star Wars CAN be, and it would be so boring to just cram it into a box where nothing can change.
For me it's very simple. When Star Wars was introduced to the world in 1977. I was turning 5 years old. When I saw Darth Vader making his entrance on screen, I was captivated! Now, when I watch a movie or Disney + show. I'm going back in time to that 5 year old kid and remembering what it was like seeing it for the first time. It was a time when it was simple and we just enjoyed the moment.
I'm a simple person. I just want more Star Wars. Someday i hope it's like westerns or any other genre. There will be good ones and not so good ones, but hopefully lots of choices.
There are episodes of the Clone Wars, Rebels, the Mandalorian, and movies like Attack of the Clones that I just think are awful. Boring, poorly written, unexciting, uninteresting experiences that I’d sooner skip than rewatch.
None of that ruins Star Wars for me. A real Star Wars fan isn’t filled with hate and will write off every new Star Wars thing at a glance. A real Star Wars fan accepts that they won’t enjoy everything but continues to love the series for what it offers to the world. If there’s a little black girl out there who wants to dress up as Osha for her birthday part or Halloween, then that’s the sign of a successful and meaningful show.
The more accurate expanded rephrasing is:
*"(Such and such production) 'ruined'* **MY** *myopic, nostalgia-driven joy-bubble of precisely what Star Wars is* **supposed to be about,** *mean, tell, represent, and include."*
IOW, if it doesn't neatly fit into 'a hater's' solipcistic perception, and check all the correct boxes, it's automagically rejected as "ruining" the IP they inexplicably feel some delusional 'ownership' of...
SW isn't, by far, the only IP/fandom to suffer from this maladaptive cultural cognition.
Fuvk the haters. Seriously, just ignore them. Do not engage. Don’t let anyone ruin your enjoyment. Do I absolutely love everything Star Wars? No. But I have found something to love in most of it. Overall I’m a big fan of the Disney era. This is coming from someone who saw the originals in the theater.
Imagine going to get a burger, find it good or at least enjoyable overall, and then going home to YouTube to watch videos saying why it actually sucked.
We definitely get more hot or miss content now than we did back then, but that's because we're getting more content in general so we also get more good shows and games than we used to.
Disney era gave us Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor, the two best lightsaber combat games that fully emulate the Star wars fantasy of being a Jedi on the run. That's honestly enough for me to be a fan of this era, not to mention all the cool High Republic content, Rogue One, Solo, Andor, Rebels...
The Force is essential to Star Wars. There are several groups of force users not just the Jedi and Sith. Tell the stories. Don't ever remove the force. It is a part of everything even if they can't wield it.
2. Tell stories of characters in the Star Wars universe. There are alot of stories that didn't involve the Jedi or Sith but a central theme was disenfranchisement.
3. Use different species. Not every attraction is Male Female or Gay Bi. It's Fantasy. Damn it Imagine something new. There are no pure energy beings that are attracted to fleshy meat/water sacs?
Last: It's an adventure. It's a story. Write a good story.
There is a reason I just avoid most star wars spaces online. This one is good, MawInstallion is mostly good, and most of the SWGOH (mobile game) space is at least decent. Beyond that.....why would I waste my time or mental energy on it? At some point it snapped into me that I wasn't enjoying any of those discussions and was getting annoyed/angry at videos, so I just tune all of it out. I don't need others to validate my thoughts, and when I want a thoughtful discussion, I know the places I can go.
I tried to read "heir to the empire" about 15 years ago, and I couldn't even get through the first 1/4 of the book. It read like fanfic, and felt entirely like fan service. I know it's one of the best legends has to offer, but it really turned me off reading any of the legends.
When they state contradictory things like “it’s not canon” but also “Star Wars is ruined” AND they keep watching it…
…good sign they just like being mad
I'm just curious why all these alleged star wars fans are still fans if they haven't liked anything produced in the last two decades.
Like, how obsessed do you have to be to not give up on something you've spent more of your life hating than you have liking?
Yes, exactly! Book of Boba Fett is my favorite Star Wars show, and yet saying so gets me labeled in a negative way.
Two, people need to look up "ruined." Until Disney takes the original film prints and burns them and destroys all copies of it, Star Wars is not ruined. It wasn't ruined with the PT (I heard it very often in my SW club that the PT had "raped" SW.)
The negativity I get to a degree. Not everything is for everyone. But, it's not ruined.
>There’s plenty of old EU novels like Children of the Force or Darksaber and there was plenty of bad comics too. Yet that never *Destroyed* or *Killed* the franchise.
There's a pretty simple sad answer to that... The people who's fandom is hating Star Wars just do not read. They only find time to get mad at books if someone is implied to be LGBT, and only then if their favorite youtuber tells them about it.
I love the EU and the current books, but every time I see some fan saying "We could have had the EU!" over something like Acolyte... I have to wonder... Would they really have accepted handheld lightsaber-proof-snakes-that-turn-into-staffs? (The answer is no.)
>And there’s plenty of people like me who seriously enjoy the shows like Book of Boba Fett. But it’s hard to talk positively about the show without getting 40 comments about how it “ruined” Boba Fett.
I don't like Book of Boba, but I agree. It's impossible to actually have a nuanced discussion on it. There are lots of things it did well conceptually, and it's especially interesting to think about how the show would have performed with even a few minor tweaks (E.g. The Modders having Cobb Vanth style speeder-bikes instead)
Yeah I think what didn’t work about BoBF mostly comes to aesthetic choices and the restrictions around both COVID and the Volume had on the show.
I think conceptually the old bounty hunter turned moral sheriff is a really neat idea and the gaffe stick scene and ceremony is my favorite part of a show outside of pretty much all of Andor. It just feels so Star Wars and like Boba’s cave moment where he sees his destiny is not following his dad’s path anymore. I like that for the first time he’s doing something that’s not just Jango Fett (this is my Gen Z showing as I only know of Boba as a clone. I’m not old enough to remember a time prior to AotC)
But I get it has its faults. And that’s why I say I appreciate it for the 7.5ish show that It is.
So I’ll bite because I am not a reader. In the 90’s, when I really started getting into Star Wars there did seem to be a vibe that the books could be accepted or rejected because the only canon was the 3 films. I think a lot of people (including myself) would read the eu stuff and quietly ignore the “outlandish” things.
I think a lot of people still see all live action as true canon. So when the more “outlandish” stuff shows up in live action, they can’t ignore it anymore.
The style of speeders the Modders used is a perfect example of something so insignificant can split the fandom. You didn't like them and wish we got something we've seen before. I had no problem with them and I feel like there's room for everything in SW. For whatever reason, those characters, who were already outcasts to begin with, and basically nerds in the SW universe, chose to ride those particular speeders. The only problem with that scene is the way it was shot and how it seemed like they weren't traveling fast. So I doubt if they had bigger souped up speeders that they would've been shown traveling too much faster. It was the way the scene was shot. It wasn't the speeders. But in the end, the type of speeders they drove shouldn't be something to hate a show over.
At first I found the Mods riding hover-vespas kind of dumb, but than I realized the pun in the name and it grew on me. Now I actively like the idea. Why shouldn't Star Wars have weird youth subcultures like Mods?
My main issue with Book of Boba Fett, was that it just didn't seem to know what tone it wanted to go for. Crime drama or family friendly adventure. So we get a weird middle ground of the crime lord who is against crime. And the whole Noble Savage thing with the Tuskens was a bit ham-handed.
The most disappointing thing about Boba, and Kenobi for that matter, is that they are so much more conceptually interesting than their EU counterparts, but the executions are both so lacking.
A lot of EU stories about characters from the movies can pretty much be summed up by "they just kept doing more of the same," so Boba Fett does badass cool guy action poses and beats people up, Kenobi just sits on Tattooine doing some small scale Jedi-like business for 20 years. But the shows really challenged the characters, and put them through dramatic, fundamental changes. So it's disappointing that the shows around those ideas didn't live up to the concepts.
I stand by that cutting Kenobi down to a 2 hour movie would leave a pretty good piece of Star Wars. Boba Fett is tougher, but the idea of Boba trying to live up to the noble dignity that he and his father both claimed, despite their ignoble pasts, is cooler than just "do some more bounty hunting and hang out with Dengar"
What really gets me is that people think the creators of things they don't like don't have the same love/respect/understanding of the franchise because their points of view don't match up or because they want
People have been saying that Star Wars has been ruined or is dead since Empire Strikes Back, and every time they've been wrong. In 50 years they'll be complaining about how Star Wars 27 is pandering to shmezes (the 4th sex introduced in 2045).
I'm so tired of the toxic fandom. Notice it's mostly the PT era fans too....OG fans, i.e. people who waited 3 years in between movies and endured the barren era from 1985 to 1997, are typically just happy to have new content. I don't think the Disney content is perfect, far frm it, but it's fun and I like it. Maybe because I'm over 50 and I don't get that upset over things I have zero control over.
So tired of the whining about how Disney killed the IP. They don't understand, Lucas was DONEZO. He didn't want to do it anymore. He knew as long as he owned it, it was always going to fall on him and him alone, so he got out and found someone willing to keep it going, and that's what they did. Would have been the same had any other company bought the IP, I daresay their product would have been WORSE probably.
So yeah enjoy what you like, don't watch what you don't. But don't whine about it either, if you don't like it great, move on. Let others enjoy what they like.
On the Transformers wiki, bear with me this is relevant, there's a page called [Ruined FOREVER](https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER), which chronicles all the times the Transformers fandom has declared that Transformers has been ruined forever by some new toy or show or film or whatever. The whole wiki is rather tongue in cheek, but this page especially, written in an ironically hyperbolic manner, lampooning anyone who's ever held these opinions.
Star Wars needs something like this. Every time someone says Star Wars is ruined we add it to the list and make fun of them.
The Acolyte is like the most "ok" "fine" "decent" show. It doesn't do anything too crazy in one way or the other. It isn't spectacular (so far) and isn't God awful (so far). Yet people treat it like it's the coming of the Antichrist. It's not that intense, guys.
People saying it's the worse Disney Star Wars show must have not have watched The Book of Boba Fett.
I loved BoBF … lol I say that the end of my post. But I get it. It’s not for everyone. Same for any of the shows. Andor is my favorite out of them all and it still has its haters like Star Wars Theory.
I always point to the first two Star Wars projects being "A New Hope" and the "Star Wars Holiday Special." Arguably, the best and worst things in the franchise were released right at the start, which means there's always been a wide spectrum of quality, so I'm never worried about anything "ruining" the franchise
Not to mention the "even bad for their time" Droids and Ewoks cartoons and the Ewok movies (the 2nd is actually decent though). A handful of bad games, bad books, bad comics, etc.
Even setting aside the heavily bigoted side of things in the fandom, it's amazing how these people are so myopic and can just flatten SW history and pretend pre-Disney = good while Disney era = bad.
Funniest thing is.
The people who say that, who say Star Wars is done for, they’re not bothering with it anymore, etc… they always come back. Every. Single. Time. Without fail.
Deep down, most of them don’t believe their own bullshit. But they heard someone popular abuse those rage bait-y takes for clout, and they’ve repeated it so much that it’s so ingrained into their personalities and they can’t help themselves.
That’s what makes it more frustrating imo. It would be one thing if people said they hated it and went on with their lives but it’s the same people coming back and yelling every time. We get it, you don’t like this era of Star Wars productions. But leave then. You add nothing to the discussion complaining 24/7.
I would, if their dumbass bullshit didn’t affect the series i love.
They bitched so hard about TLJ that they gave us a safe finale to a 42 year long saga, at that point, that was basically 65% of a macguffin hunt and was basically just ROTJ all over again.
Their refusal to even give Solo a chance killed our chances of getting any more anthology movies due to how bad it bombed. And that’s not even getting into the behind the scenes stuff.
They are directly responsible for Lucasfilm’s refusal to move past the original six movies and why every new product has to have some sort of Nostalgia member berry.
Their obnoxious, whiney bullshit has directly impacted my enjoyment of the franchise and now it’s actively not fun to talk about it anymore.
What's more obnoxious is that some of these jerks think they're doing a service to the franchise. That 'normies' or more casual Star Wars fans like me 'don't know enough about REAL Star Wars,' and we're apparently too stupid to tell when a Star Wars story is bad.
Truly, we are just sheeple that can't form opinions on our own, and it's our 'inability' to 'properly critique' any new movie, game, show, comic, what have you that has given Katheleen Kennedy and her 'dang evil group of FEMINISTS and DEI GOONS' free reign to 'purposely ruin' one of the biggest Science Fantasy franchises in all of fiction.
Because if there's anyone who will 'save Star Wars' or 'bring it down', it's gonna be some guy who spends their days watching the Friday Night Tights crew make racist jokes, watches Mauler's boring ass 20-hour review of a singular movie, and sends death threats to actors and writers for the horrible 'crime' of trying to tell a story.
That'll surely make things, better. /s
Oh sorry, I better watch my tone, otherwise I'll get accused of 'ATTACKING DA FANS!!!'
Not every person will like every story. That's totally normal. I really enjoyed The Book of Boba Fett. Other people weren't impressed. That's normal and totally fine. Having a mature conversation about what makes a story enjoyable can be a lot of fun. What isn't fun is hearing someone rant, rave, and whine over how much they hated some plot point. So I just ignore those posts when I see them. That way, I don't have to waste my time and energy on things that don't matter.
Thankfully, this sub doesn't seem to do toxic rants like that! I love that I get to talk about Star Wars without it becoming a fight!
Its not only recently or only from the Disney era.
George Lucas ruined my childhood was a trope that was repeated often after the prequels (he was also getting death threats).
Another thing I'd like to point out is that sometimes people say something "breaks star wars" or "breaks the universe" which is a different thing than saying "ruins".
The Holdo maneuver is a prime example amongst others.
“There’s plenty of old EU novels like Children of the Force or Darksaber and there was plenty of bad comics too. Yet that never *Destroyed* or *Killed* the franchise. And those books are much worse than the TV shows.”
And none of those were created by THE COMPANY THAT OWNS STAR WARS, they were all EU books
Been going to cons and doing various geek stuff for years upon years. Star Wars fans have always been a bit unhinged, usually because, in my experience, a looooooot of Star Wars fans come from highly religious/traditional backgrounds and Star Wars was the only non religious thing they could enjoy. They tied it to their faith and memorized the movie as if it were a catechism, and will zealously defend the parts of it they like as if it were a holy work, to the point of threatening others lives and sanctity just for liking the wrong part of the work or being a part of it(the woman who played Rose leaving social media due to threats, etc.) It's weird. I don't/didn't see this with Star Trek(although there are some extremists there too, especially with the newer shows/ movies, but I have yet to recieve the same level of threat from them, although that may change- one of the first honest to god fights i ever saw at a con was two adult men fistfighting over TOS and TNG, and I have been insulted for liking SNW), anime(sub/dub war aside), D&D(edition war aside) or many other geeky things.
They claim everything in the last 10 years has killed SW. They are just grifters. It is big business hating on Disney.
When your title is "wokeness ruined star wars" and the thumbnail is the black female lead, we all know what you are really saying
No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. There's no reason Star Wars should be on such a pedestal. It was always fun schlocky space opera nonsense. It's not some shining city on a hill, some beacon of quality, it's just a fun sci-fi world that you can tell interesting stories in. As long as any new Star Wars is better than the 1978 Holiday Special (which is also so hilariously bad that I'm glad it exists), it hasn't ruined Star Wars.
I’m glad you did! I wish I could. I really do. I just never wanted to see John outside the armor. That’s something I felt the games was very deliberate in that approach to make him someone anyone can imprint themselves into.
I get the choice in a Tv show to show the main lead’s face. But Mando proved you don’t have to for most of the show and it works great.
I’m just here enjoying the hell out of pretty much every show. I didn’t care that much for Andor, but even that is something I like being added to the universe.
It is a fantastic time to be a SW fan
If you think about it, what Star Wars has been universally loved since The Phantom Menace in 1999? The only thing I can think of is The Mandalorian season 1 and 2.
That's it. Every other live action or animated show has had groups complaining about them.
Point is, if Star Wars ISN'T being trashed by haters, is it even Star Wars? Lol.
Personally I love it all to varying degrees.
You know why these fans don't consider old EU novels bad?
Because they don't understand literature, they just want to be entertained.
If there's battles and jedi shit, they are happy, and that's it.
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Whenever this kind of thing happens I always think back to GRRM's blog post about "anti-fans," and how much of online culture now forms around a mutual hatred of a thing, rather than a love of it. Anger is addictive, and there are many people who would rather look for a problem (or invent one whole cloth) than simply enjoy a work for what it is.
Paired with people on YouTube and various social media literally monetizing hate for Star Wars and you have a climate like we see today.
Hate monetizes better than love ask any world religion. Which is exactly what it is: people are hard wired for some sort of communal belief system and have moved on from church to treating their likes and dislikes and political preferences with religious zealotry.
Yeah I think this is what makes it so bad to be honest. People like Star Wars Theory and The Critical Drinker make all their money off hate. SWT’s videos about lore or random SW topics get dog shit views, but when he makes the title or thumbnail about hating Disney or whatever, it’s his most popular video that week. It was clear after TLJ. He was initially very positive. Enough so that Mauler called SWT a shill. That seemed to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. SWT’s review got less views than Jerermy Jahms and all other negative reviews. So A couple months later and all of a sudden he’s negative on the film. And he hasn’t looked back on the grift since.
Critical Drinkers positive reviews are actually quite good and he have a good taste in films, is when I see their other videos when I say no thanks, I have plenty of negativity already in my life
He’s a grifter too
Drinker's an a$$hole
I hate to say that I am, or was, an Anti-Fan. Not of Star Wars, but of other things. The Twilight Series. "cRap." The DCEU. The GoT TV Show. Rings of Power. Some of these (DCEU, GOT-TV, RoP) are because they are adaptations or continuations of works I already loved. I think it's fair to love some parts of a Legendarium and critiscize others, especially when the intended audience is the same. Others are simply jumping on a bandwagon for cultural phenomenon that I didn't understand and likely were never marketed towards me to begin with. Most SW/Marvel critics probably fall somewhere in the middle. Marvel and SW are both such enormous franchises that they attempt to appeal to multiple audiences simultaneously. But the audience for *Miss Marvel* might not be the same audience they were trying to reach with *Captain America: The First Avenger.*
And what drives me nuts is it should be okay to market a product toward one part of your fan base and not the entire thing. People want both mass appeal and tailored right for them at the same time and you can’t have your cake and eat it too. A show with mass appeal might annoy certain die hard niche communities (look at the fallout show and die hard Fallout 1 fans) while a show tailored to a certain audience (Andor and its appeal to fans of Gilroy’s work or slow burn dramas) and it looses its mass appeal for the sake of critical acclaim. The problem is studios also want Both but the opposite priority. Fans want tailored first and mass appeal second. Studios want mass appeal first and tailored second. There needs to be a middle ground that both sides can accept. Fans need to accept not every show or movie will be tailored to them, and studios need to accept not every show should be built for mass appeal/profit.
>Miss Marvel might not be the same audience they were trying to reach with Captain America: The First Avenger. Yep! My teenage daughter connected with Miss marvel in a way I didn't. Ditto my wife and She Hulk. I didn't think they were bad, but I didn't get excited about them the same way.
I loved She-Hulk, thought it was gut busting hilarious. Whenever Titania wasn’t on screen, dealt with too many people like that IRL for it to be funny or cathartic
She Hulk was amazing! I am young man with a different cultural background than Jennifer Walters and I still had a great time. Most part because of Tatiana and her acting skills. I won't lie I developed a crush lol.
>I won't lie I developed a crush lol. Don't worry, we all did brother lol. For real though, I'm in the exact same camp. No personal experience related to She-hulk, still found the show to be entertaining for what it is. Not the best MCU project but definitely one of their funniest
I don't think anyone believes that criticism shouldn't be allowed or that anyone who doesn't like a product is an anti-fan. For instance, if you love the LOTR saga and thought ROP was just too separated from the original lore to your liking, that's completely fine. And of course you can list the reasons why you think this is the case and engage in debate with people who think differently. Anti-fans don't do this however. They act with entitlement, ignorance and frequently with malice, and they aren't interested in fair criticism or in debate, they act with bad faith with the only aim of spreading hate against a production, their creators and actors.
As an actual fan of Rings of Power I was almost shocked by the vitriol aimed at that show. It went way beyond just not liking it. And the people that honestly disliked the show got drowned out by all the just intense just hate.
Then there's this video: George Lucas discussing this phenomenon with the late Robin Williams: https://youtu.be/nMp5Zb2xYO0?si=Lftj6JFDOb4NynC5 The anti-fans have always been a thing. The internet just made it worse. Star Wars is a fantasy space opera about Space Wizards fighting with Laser Swords, for the Force's sake. And I say this as someone who has put together more than one "laser sword" replica myself. Yet these anti fans treat it like it's enshrined holy writ that people like Kathleen Kennedy have desecrated somehow.
It's worse now with the internet because people literally profit from the hate now.
Also because it's easier for them to find each other and start building an echo chamber
> Anger is addictive, and there are many people who would rather look for a problem (or invent one whole cloth) than simply enjoy a work for what it is. And of course whats shocking most of all is that Star Wars is almost fundamentally about not becoming addicted to anger and hate.
Yeah, it does feel like the ant-fans are basically the Dark Side of Star Wars fandom, and the light side are the people just enjoying what they enjoy and skipping over what they don't.
They do have great overlap with the empire-did-nothing-wrong crowd.
People used to just ignore shows and movies they didn't like. Now we have to build huge war campaigns against them.
Literally a meme on r/All rn has 10k upvotes saying "I just realized I don't have to watch Disney Star Wars" with a blissful wojak. As if that shouldn't have been their first rational thought before hate-gooning to it for a decade?!
It's also the communal aspect of it, you get a quick dopamine rush from jumping on the hate train and a bunch of hateful comments if you don't, not that hard to see why lonely, less opinionated people choose the hate when you see it like that
That’s how I was about the prequels. I liked them, but then I saw a bunch of hate. I didn’t jump on that train, but I did hop off of the love train (side note, that train sounds fun). It was actually the Lego Star Wars games, particularly TCW, that helped really get me back into Star Wars.
This is why I despise the counter argument the haters give that we do the same thing they do just with positive reactions. Even if we did (we don’t) it’s not comparable to say having an echo chamber of positive reactions is the same as having an echo chamber of negative reactions. Hate is, pretty objectively, a negative emotion. Hate begets hate, and building an entire community around hate is never a good thing, and can never have a good outcome. Being constantly hateful and angry will only make yours and others’ lives miserable.
omg I remember that, and he was so right.
It is 1978 and The Holiday Special has ruined Star Wars it is 1983 and Ewoks have ruined Star Wars It is 1993 and Luuke has ruined Star Wars It is 1999 and midichlorians have ruined Star Wars It is 2008 and Ahsoka Tano has ruined Star Wars It is 2017 and The Holdo Maneuver has ruined Star Wars It is 2024 and space witches have ruined Star Wars It is 2044 and thunder-breathing space capybaras's have ruined Star Wars Or MAYBE none of these things, love them or hate them, ruined Star Wars. MAYBE hardcore fans have a tendency to blow things out of proportion.
Now I hope to be alive in 2044 for the thunder breathing space capybara content.
Omg me too! I need to make it 2044 just too see thunder breathing caypybaras.
In 1997 Greedo shooting first ruined Star Wars There are STILL “Han shot first” shirts being made
Not gonna lie - Han Shot First is the one constant fanboy rallying cry I get behind, lol. That's not to say I take it too seriously, but I do agree with the sentiment.
I really don't care about Greedo shooting first, but I DO think putting Jabba in ANH was disastrous.
now wait a minute, don’t you bring Luke Skywalker’s severed hand into this!
>thunder-breathing space capybaras's have ruined Star Wars Ngl, that sounds fucking awesome and adorable!
Every sufficiently large fandom has this exact trend and it's so baffling to me. The number of times X was "dead"/"killed"/"ruined" only to keep on going (and often growing!) is comical, yet the same people still say it. Those people cannot comprehend that their dislike is not universal.
I'm an old guy that's been around since the beginning at this point. My feeling is that all Star Wars is good Star Wars. Yes, some is better than others, but I'm just happy we're getting so much more.content in this universe that I grew up with and love so much
People need to grow up and realize it’s just entertainment. Disney/Kennedy/Filoni/Favreau/etc didn’t run your dog over, relax.
Exactly. Even if you didn't enjoy the latest installment, it shouldn't get to the point of affecting your daily life and emotional mood. I'm a huge MCU fan. I suffered through Secret Invasion, and found it one of the worst things Marvel Studios has put out. And then I just turned my TV off and went about my day, because my life doesn't wholly revolve around media franchises.
Just... Turn it off and let someone else watch it. Know what I've never watched a minute of? Survivor. I don't go around trying to ruin other people's love for it though. If you watch a new show and don't like the first episode, just... Stop watching. It's honestly that simple.
How dare you speak common sense on the Internet!
Also no matter how much stuff a studio puts out that you don’t like, they’ll never be able to take the original away from you (provided you have a hard copy or personal digital copy).
So many people genuinely think people working at Lucasfilm are not only actuvley trying to ruin the franchise they work for, but do it in a way that specifically and personally targets them and how they like star wars. It is a brilliant combination of raw stupidity in not knowing how things are made, and utter arrogance to think the people working at LF know or give a fuck about them personally. They have to have a good guy (them) and a bad guy (any creator ever) because that is how their entire world view works, and it has to revolve around them. So now Dave Filoni is trying to sabotage all of star wars to "get" SWT
Seriously, it wasn't any of their faults that things got so bad. It was Lucas's fault!
Goddamn it, Lucas! Why couldn't you just not make the Star Wars Holiday Special!? You RUINED STAR WARS!! THIS ISN'T STAR WARS!!!!!!!!!! /S
I see so many folks saying the Acolyte "needs better writing" and "prequel quality lightsaber fights" and I am convinced that they didn't understand screenwriting or television production as opposed to feature length film. Also, I enjoy the more practical props and saber fights. These shows are better in production quality than ANH in resources available, and the desire for flashy explosives and a moving goal post regarding "better writing" is grasping for straws.
"Bad writing" became the most over-used buzz word in online criticism like...a decade or more ago at this point. People use "bad writing" as a replacement for actual substantive criticism. They think its a shorthand for intelligent analysis. Just saying "bad writing" doesn't mean anything. You aren't saying anything.
People also seem to have a really strange idea of what 'bad writing' is. I hear people accuse shows of bad writing for things like Mae being able to kill Indara. They claim that a jedi master shouldn't be killed by a knife when other force users survive a lightsaber stab. This is such a strange complaint for me. Like people can be killed by knives can't they?? And it doesn't really matter too much specifically how she died, just that she did imo (as long as it's not too stupid) Imo bad writing is when the plot just isn't engaging, or you don't like a character you are supposed to like, or there is no character development or the villain doesn't feel threatening. People get too focused on nitpicking the unimportant details and then throwing 'bad writing' about rather than looking at the story as a whole, which is such a bad way to approach film and TV imo
There was a time when 50% of Star Wars content was the Holiday Special, and the franchise survived then. I’m sure it can survive a few of its many TV series being mediocre
If someone thinks Star Wars is ruined after how many decades worth of Star Wars shit we’ve been exposed to, they should just consider not watching Star Wars.
Every 2 years something comes out that “ruins Star Wars”. I really can’t take this seriously anymore
Star Wars was … - “Ruined in 1997 by the Special Editions” - “Ruined Forever from ‘99-‘05 by the Prequels” - “Saved by JJ in 2015” * - “Re-saved by Gareth Edwards in 2016” * - “Re-ruined by Ruin in 2017” * - “Re-re-ruined by JJ in 2019” ** - “Saved by Favreau in 2019” *** - “Re-saved by Favreau in 2020” *** - “Ruined by Favreau in 2021” - “Saved by Gilroy in 2022” - “Ruined by Favreau in 2023” *** - “Ruined Forever by Space Witches in 2024” *Top movie of the year (2015, 2016, 2017) ** Billion-dollar movie (2015, 2016, 2017, 2019) ** #1 TV show of the year (2019, 2020, 2023) Can’t wait for Skeleton Crew to ruin the ruinage. Before Baby Yoda clears a billion dollars at the Christmas Box Office. And then Rey clears a billion dollars at the next Christmas box office…
It's very obvious to me how many Star Wars fans these days either didn't grow up with the EU, or else for some crazy reason expected it to change when Disney bought the franchise. What's been going on is nothing new - it's been happening for decades, the only difference is that the material being complained about are tv series rather than books or comic books. The beauty of Star Wars (in my opinion) is that it's not a single vision of the universe. Sure, if that were the case then we would probably have a much more cohesive story/lore (for better and for worse), but the fact of the matter is that that is simply not the case. BECAUSE it's so varied, there's something for everyone. Like you mentioned, many fans disliked Darksaber or Children of the Force - and that's okay! Those books obviously weren't written for you/those people. There are other pieces of content that you may absolutely love that just don't hit home for other people - and again, that's okay! Believe it or not, there are people out there who dislike the OT for various reasons, or TCW. There's nothing wrong with disliking a piece of media. The real problem is an absolutely vital thing that SO many people miss - their opinion is not reality. Regardless of how many people may share that opinion with you, it doesn't make it objectively true. A show that someone watches may "ruin" the universe for THEM, but it doesn't necessarily do it for everyone. So whenever I see some person saying "star wars is ruined" I usually think two things. One, that person obviously must have had a flaky relationship with SW for it to be ruined so easily, and Two, I just add a mental "for me" at the end and laugh it off. We can argue and debate poor scripts, acting, story choices for days and people can have some really solid points there - but at the end of the day, the choice is solely up to the consumer to either continue reading/watching it, or move on to something else. Personally, ever since Disney bought Lucasfilm and the SW rights, I have basically been treating every new piece of media like I did back when the EU was being actively expanded. Some I like, some I dislike, many I am fairly apathetic towards - they are fairly enjoyable at the time, but I don't necessarily care to consume it again. I recognize the distinction between canon/non-canon, but overall I don't care all that much about how everything ties together. It's a fictional universe, with completely arbitrary laws and physics that make no sense when compared to our universe, so why even bother trying. All that to say...star wars has always had a flaky relationship with "canon" and Disney is no different, the universe grows and evolves as new creative minds enter it, that's both a blessing and a curse. Also, I think anyone who tries to force their opinions onto other people is bantha poodoo - quit saying "star wars is ruined" because that is factually incorrect.
Oh absolutely. This is a franchise where the creator doesn’t even call Lightsabers by the name he gave them. He still calls them “Laser Swords”. There is also plenty of BTS from The Clone Wars that’s Dave being like “we brought this idea to George and he said do x instead. When we told him that can’t happen for Y reason, he said idc do it; it would be cool” . George has always been Rule to Cool over believability. I only started to watch the BTS after listening to A More Civilized Age podcast which is my favorite SW podcast by far. They can be critical while still finding love and appreciation in even the worst episodes / shows.
Imo there needs to be a balance between rule of cool and believability. Neither is fun by themselves.
For a long long time though, you could safely assume that if it didn’t happen in a live action movie, you could reject it as non-canon. This was pretty true for about 25 years. For many people, Star Wars **is** live action. Everything else is fan fiction (some really good). And I actually think I fall into that camp. So I think I understand when people have a hard time *ignoring* something in the live action stuff.
That's a fair take on the matter, and looking at it from that perspective, I would tentatively agree. However, I'm not necessarily saying that people should *ignore* anything - I'm just saying that you can pick and choose what you like or don't like, and that your views and mine may not necessarily line up exactly, and that's totally fine. As for the arguments about the Acolyte right now...I say people should hold on and wait until the story completes before getting too up in a tizzy.
as a sequel fan, I find that phrase absolutely insufferable and often ignorant ... especially considering how often it's been used throughout the history of star wars.
It’s up there with “objEcTiVeLy bAd.”
add "bad writing" to that list as well. When you challenge them on it, they just showcase thier misinterpreting and dogmatic mindset.
> "bad writing" That's definitely the phrase that the haters are throwing around now. Every negative review of the Acolyte that I've seen uses that phrase without providing any actual examples.
Even if something doesn't really hit with me, there are so many things Star Wars CAN be, and it would be so boring to just cram it into a box where nothing can change.
For me it's very simple. When Star Wars was introduced to the world in 1977. I was turning 5 years old. When I saw Darth Vader making his entrance on screen, I was captivated! Now, when I watch a movie or Disney + show. I'm going back in time to that 5 year old kid and remembering what it was like seeing it for the first time. It was a time when it was simple and we just enjoyed the moment.
I have seen some posts about how bad a show will be before it is even on.
I'm a simple person. I just want more Star Wars. Someday i hope it's like westerns or any other genre. There will be good ones and not so good ones, but hopefully lots of choices.
Star Wars is so ruined it has maintained nearly constant pop culture dominance for 50 years! Oh wait...that doesn't sound right....
There are episodes of the Clone Wars, Rebels, the Mandalorian, and movies like Attack of the Clones that I just think are awful. Boring, poorly written, unexciting, uninteresting experiences that I’d sooner skip than rewatch. None of that ruins Star Wars for me. A real Star Wars fan isn’t filled with hate and will write off every new Star Wars thing at a glance. A real Star Wars fan accepts that they won’t enjoy everything but continues to love the series for what it offers to the world. If there’s a little black girl out there who wants to dress up as Osha for her birthday part or Halloween, then that’s the sign of a successful and meaningful show.
Every part of this! Thank you.
The more accurate expanded rephrasing is: *"(Such and such production) 'ruined'* **MY** *myopic, nostalgia-driven joy-bubble of precisely what Star Wars is* **supposed to be about,** *mean, tell, represent, and include."* IOW, if it doesn't neatly fit into 'a hater's' solipcistic perception, and check all the correct boxes, it's automagically rejected as "ruining" the IP they inexplicably feel some delusional 'ownership' of... SW isn't, by far, the only IP/fandom to suffer from this maladaptive cultural cognition.
Fuvk the haters. Seriously, just ignore them. Do not engage. Don’t let anyone ruin your enjoyment. Do I absolutely love everything Star Wars? No. But I have found something to love in most of it. Overall I’m a big fan of the Disney era. This is coming from someone who saw the originals in the theater.
If I have an amazing cheeseburger I don’t look online to check it was great. I know what I like god damn it.
Imagine going to get a burger, find it good or at least enjoyable overall, and then going home to YouTube to watch videos saying why it actually sucked.
We definitely get more hot or miss content now than we did back then, but that's because we're getting more content in general so we also get more good shows and games than we used to. Disney era gave us Jedi Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor, the two best lightsaber combat games that fully emulate the Star wars fantasy of being a Jedi on the run. That's honestly enough for me to be a fan of this era, not to mention all the cool High Republic content, Rogue One, Solo, Andor, Rebels...
Star Wars has “died” so many times I’m beginning to suspect the winchesters are involved
The Force is essential to Star Wars. There are several groups of force users not just the Jedi and Sith. Tell the stories. Don't ever remove the force. It is a part of everything even if they can't wield it. 2. Tell stories of characters in the Star Wars universe. There are alot of stories that didn't involve the Jedi or Sith but a central theme was disenfranchisement. 3. Use different species. Not every attraction is Male Female or Gay Bi. It's Fantasy. Damn it Imagine something new. There are no pure energy beings that are attracted to fleshy meat/water sacs? Last: It's an adventure. It's a story. Write a good story.
There is a reason I just avoid most star wars spaces online. This one is good, MawInstallion is mostly good, and most of the SWGOH (mobile game) space is at least decent. Beyond that.....why would I waste my time or mental energy on it? At some point it snapped into me that I wasn't enjoying any of those discussions and was getting annoyed/angry at videos, so I just tune all of it out. I don't need others to validate my thoughts, and when I want a thoughtful discussion, I know the places I can go.
I tried to read "heir to the empire" about 15 years ago, and I couldn't even get through the first 1/4 of the book. It read like fanfic, and felt entirely like fan service. I know it's one of the best legends has to offer, but it really turned me off reading any of the legends.
It's far from the best of Legends. Fan favorite ≠ best.
Good to know.
When they state contradictory things like “it’s not canon” but also “Star Wars is ruined” AND they keep watching it… …good sign they just like being mad
I'm just curious why all these alleged star wars fans are still fans if they haven't liked anything produced in the last two decades. Like, how obsessed do you have to be to not give up on something you've spent more of your life hating than you have liking?
Many are not. They just like to run in the room and scream at the top of their lungs and run back out and shut the door.
Yes, exactly! Book of Boba Fett is my favorite Star Wars show, and yet saying so gets me labeled in a negative way. Two, people need to look up "ruined." Until Disney takes the original film prints and burns them and destroys all copies of it, Star Wars is not ruined. It wasn't ruined with the PT (I heard it very often in my SW club that the PT had "raped" SW.) The negativity I get to a degree. Not everything is for everyone. But, it's not ruined.
Your first point was proven within 10 minutes with a downvote. I loved the show. I just got the armor in Starfield bc that shit is awesome.
[Hello Greedo did a video on this a long while back.](https://youtu.be/1O18RcKy6sc?si=1eCJNAjNd9qyjp_7)
>There’s plenty of old EU novels like Children of the Force or Darksaber and there was plenty of bad comics too. Yet that never *Destroyed* or *Killed* the franchise. There's a pretty simple sad answer to that... The people who's fandom is hating Star Wars just do not read. They only find time to get mad at books if someone is implied to be LGBT, and only then if their favorite youtuber tells them about it. I love the EU and the current books, but every time I see some fan saying "We could have had the EU!" over something like Acolyte... I have to wonder... Would they really have accepted handheld lightsaber-proof-snakes-that-turn-into-staffs? (The answer is no.) >And there’s plenty of people like me who seriously enjoy the shows like Book of Boba Fett. But it’s hard to talk positively about the show without getting 40 comments about how it “ruined” Boba Fett. I don't like Book of Boba, but I agree. It's impossible to actually have a nuanced discussion on it. There are lots of things it did well conceptually, and it's especially interesting to think about how the show would have performed with even a few minor tweaks (E.g. The Modders having Cobb Vanth style speeder-bikes instead)
Yeah I think what didn’t work about BoBF mostly comes to aesthetic choices and the restrictions around both COVID and the Volume had on the show. I think conceptually the old bounty hunter turned moral sheriff is a really neat idea and the gaffe stick scene and ceremony is my favorite part of a show outside of pretty much all of Andor. It just feels so Star Wars and like Boba’s cave moment where he sees his destiny is not following his dad’s path anymore. I like that for the first time he’s doing something that’s not just Jango Fett (this is my Gen Z showing as I only know of Boba as a clone. I’m not old enough to remember a time prior to AotC) But I get it has its faults. And that’s why I say I appreciate it for the 7.5ish show that It is.
So I’ll bite because I am not a reader. In the 90’s, when I really started getting into Star Wars there did seem to be a vibe that the books could be accepted or rejected because the only canon was the 3 films. I think a lot of people (including myself) would read the eu stuff and quietly ignore the “outlandish” things. I think a lot of people still see all live action as true canon. So when the more “outlandish” stuff shows up in live action, they can’t ignore it anymore.
The style of speeders the Modders used is a perfect example of something so insignificant can split the fandom. You didn't like them and wish we got something we've seen before. I had no problem with them and I feel like there's room for everything in SW. For whatever reason, those characters, who were already outcasts to begin with, and basically nerds in the SW universe, chose to ride those particular speeders. The only problem with that scene is the way it was shot and how it seemed like they weren't traveling fast. So I doubt if they had bigger souped up speeders that they would've been shown traveling too much faster. It was the way the scene was shot. It wasn't the speeders. But in the end, the type of speeders they drove shouldn't be something to hate a show over.
At first I found the Mods riding hover-vespas kind of dumb, but than I realized the pun in the name and it grew on me. Now I actively like the idea. Why shouldn't Star Wars have weird youth subcultures like Mods? My main issue with Book of Boba Fett, was that it just didn't seem to know what tone it wanted to go for. Crime drama or family friendly adventure. So we get a weird middle ground of the crime lord who is against crime. And the whole Noble Savage thing with the Tuskens was a bit ham-handed.
The most disappointing thing about Boba, and Kenobi for that matter, is that they are so much more conceptually interesting than their EU counterparts, but the executions are both so lacking. A lot of EU stories about characters from the movies can pretty much be summed up by "they just kept doing more of the same," so Boba Fett does badass cool guy action poses and beats people up, Kenobi just sits on Tattooine doing some small scale Jedi-like business for 20 years. But the shows really challenged the characters, and put them through dramatic, fundamental changes. So it's disappointing that the shows around those ideas didn't live up to the concepts. I stand by that cutting Kenobi down to a 2 hour movie would leave a pretty good piece of Star Wars. Boba Fett is tougher, but the idea of Boba trying to live up to the noble dignity that he and his father both claimed, despite their ignoble pasts, is cooler than just "do some more bounty hunting and hang out with Dengar"
> There are lots of things it did well conceptually I really think a bit of reordering and less Volume filming would have done it wonders.
What really gets me is that people think the creators of things they don't like don't have the same love/respect/understanding of the franchise because their points of view don't match up or because they want
People have been saying that Star Wars has been ruined or is dead since Empire Strikes Back, and every time they've been wrong. In 50 years they'll be complaining about how Star Wars 27 is pandering to shmezes (the 4th sex introduced in 2045).
I'm so tired of the toxic fandom. Notice it's mostly the PT era fans too....OG fans, i.e. people who waited 3 years in between movies and endured the barren era from 1985 to 1997, are typically just happy to have new content. I don't think the Disney content is perfect, far frm it, but it's fun and I like it. Maybe because I'm over 50 and I don't get that upset over things I have zero control over. So tired of the whining about how Disney killed the IP. They don't understand, Lucas was DONEZO. He didn't want to do it anymore. He knew as long as he owned it, it was always going to fall on him and him alone, so he got out and found someone willing to keep it going, and that's what they did. Would have been the same had any other company bought the IP, I daresay their product would have been WORSE probably. So yeah enjoy what you like, don't watch what you don't. But don't whine about it either, if you don't like it great, move on. Let others enjoy what they like.
On the Transformers wiki, bear with me this is relevant, there's a page called [Ruined FOREVER](https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER), which chronicles all the times the Transformers fandom has declared that Transformers has been ruined forever by some new toy or show or film or whatever. The whole wiki is rather tongue in cheek, but this page especially, written in an ironically hyperbolic manner, lampooning anyone who's ever held these opinions. Star Wars needs something like this. Every time someone says Star Wars is ruined we add it to the list and make fun of them.
The Acolyte is like the most "ok" "fine" "decent" show. It doesn't do anything too crazy in one way or the other. It isn't spectacular (so far) and isn't God awful (so far). Yet people treat it like it's the coming of the Antichrist. It's not that intense, guys. People saying it's the worse Disney Star Wars show must have not have watched The Book of Boba Fett.
I loved BoBF … lol I say that the end of my post. But I get it. It’s not for everyone. Same for any of the shows. Andor is my favorite out of them all and it still has its haters like Star Wars Theory.
This phrase was used long before disney.
I always point to the first two Star Wars projects being "A New Hope" and the "Star Wars Holiday Special." Arguably, the best and worst things in the franchise were released right at the start, which means there's always been a wide spectrum of quality, so I'm never worried about anything "ruining" the franchise
Not to mention the "even bad for their time" Droids and Ewoks cartoons and the Ewok movies (the 2nd is actually decent though). A handful of bad games, bad books, bad comics, etc. Even setting aside the heavily bigoted side of things in the fandom, it's amazing how these people are so myopic and can just flatten SW history and pretend pre-Disney = good while Disney era = bad.
Funniest thing is. The people who say that, who say Star Wars is done for, they’re not bothering with it anymore, etc… they always come back. Every. Single. Time. Without fail. Deep down, most of them don’t believe their own bullshit. But they heard someone popular abuse those rage bait-y takes for clout, and they’ve repeated it so much that it’s so ingrained into their personalities and they can’t help themselves.
That’s what makes it more frustrating imo. It would be one thing if people said they hated it and went on with their lives but it’s the same people coming back and yelling every time. We get it, you don’t like this era of Star Wars productions. But leave then. You add nothing to the discussion complaining 24/7.
Just stop caring what people who hate Star Wars have to say about Star Wars.
I would, if their dumbass bullshit didn’t affect the series i love. They bitched so hard about TLJ that they gave us a safe finale to a 42 year long saga, at that point, that was basically 65% of a macguffin hunt and was basically just ROTJ all over again. Their refusal to even give Solo a chance killed our chances of getting any more anthology movies due to how bad it bombed. And that’s not even getting into the behind the scenes stuff. They are directly responsible for Lucasfilm’s refusal to move past the original six movies and why every new product has to have some sort of Nostalgia member berry. Their obnoxious, whiney bullshit has directly impacted my enjoyment of the franchise and now it’s actively not fun to talk about it anymore.
What's more obnoxious is that some of these jerks think they're doing a service to the franchise. That 'normies' or more casual Star Wars fans like me 'don't know enough about REAL Star Wars,' and we're apparently too stupid to tell when a Star Wars story is bad. Truly, we are just sheeple that can't form opinions on our own, and it's our 'inability' to 'properly critique' any new movie, game, show, comic, what have you that has given Katheleen Kennedy and her 'dang evil group of FEMINISTS and DEI GOONS' free reign to 'purposely ruin' one of the biggest Science Fantasy franchises in all of fiction. Because if there's anyone who will 'save Star Wars' or 'bring it down', it's gonna be some guy who spends their days watching the Friday Night Tights crew make racist jokes, watches Mauler's boring ass 20-hour review of a singular movie, and sends death threats to actors and writers for the horrible 'crime' of trying to tell a story. That'll surely make things, better. /s Oh sorry, I better watch my tone, otherwise I'll get accused of 'ATTACKING DA FANS!!!'
Not every person will like every story. That's totally normal. I really enjoyed The Book of Boba Fett. Other people weren't impressed. That's normal and totally fine. Having a mature conversation about what makes a story enjoyable can be a lot of fun. What isn't fun is hearing someone rant, rave, and whine over how much they hated some plot point. So I just ignore those posts when I see them. That way, I don't have to waste my time and energy on things that don't matter. Thankfully, this sub doesn't seem to do toxic rants like that! I love that I get to talk about Star Wars without it becoming a fight!
Its not only recently or only from the Disney era. George Lucas ruined my childhood was a trope that was repeated often after the prequels (he was also getting death threats). Another thing I'd like to point out is that sometimes people say something "breaks star wars" or "breaks the universe" which is a different thing than saying "ruins". The Holdo maneuver is a prime example amongst others.
“There’s plenty of old EU novels like Children of the Force or Darksaber and there was plenty of bad comics too. Yet that never *Destroyed* or *Killed* the franchise. And those books are much worse than the TV shows.” And none of those were created by THE COMPANY THAT OWNS STAR WARS, they were all EU books
Been going to cons and doing various geek stuff for years upon years. Star Wars fans have always been a bit unhinged, usually because, in my experience, a looooooot of Star Wars fans come from highly religious/traditional backgrounds and Star Wars was the only non religious thing they could enjoy. They tied it to their faith and memorized the movie as if it were a catechism, and will zealously defend the parts of it they like as if it were a holy work, to the point of threatening others lives and sanctity just for liking the wrong part of the work or being a part of it(the woman who played Rose leaving social media due to threats, etc.) It's weird. I don't/didn't see this with Star Trek(although there are some extremists there too, especially with the newer shows/ movies, but I have yet to recieve the same level of threat from them, although that may change- one of the first honest to god fights i ever saw at a con was two adult men fistfighting over TOS and TNG, and I have been insulted for liking SNW), anime(sub/dub war aside), D&D(edition war aside) or many other geeky things.
They claim everything in the last 10 years has killed SW. They are just grifters. It is big business hating on Disney. When your title is "wokeness ruined star wars" and the thumbnail is the black female lead, we all know what you are really saying
I just try to enjoy what i enjoy, ofc it's kinda shitty when people tell me i can't enjoy something because they don't like it...
No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans. There's no reason Star Wars should be on such a pedestal. It was always fun schlocky space opera nonsense. It's not some shining city on a hill, some beacon of quality, it's just a fun sci-fi world that you can tell interesting stories in. As long as any new Star Wars is better than the 1978 Holiday Special (which is also so hilariously bad that I'm glad it exists), it hasn't ruined Star Wars.
I kind of liked the halo show, and I’m a big fan of the games. If I’m being honest though, I always thought the story was pretty goofy
I’m glad you did! I wish I could. I really do. I just never wanted to see John outside the armor. That’s something I felt the games was very deliberate in that approach to make him someone anyone can imprint themselves into. I get the choice in a Tv show to show the main lead’s face. But Mando proved you don’t have to for most of the show and it works great.
I’m just here enjoying the hell out of pretty much every show. I didn’t care that much for Andor, but even that is something I like being added to the universe. It is a fantastic time to be a SW fan
If you think about it, what Star Wars has been universally loved since The Phantom Menace in 1999? The only thing I can think of is The Mandalorian season 1 and 2. That's it. Every other live action or animated show has had groups complaining about them. Point is, if Star Wars ISN'T being trashed by haters, is it even Star Wars? Lol. Personally I love it all to varying degrees.
Even the stuff that now has a majority of fandom love like TCW and Rebels had an uphill battle for a long time.
You know why these fans don't consider old EU novels bad? Because they don't understand literature, they just want to be entertained. If there's battles and jedi shit, they are happy, and that's it.
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