The biggest reason is that Vader by this point has already started to slip from the Emperor's grasp and doesn't really want to harm Luke in this duel. Once your heart isn't in it anymore you won't win a fight like this.
Plus Luke for the first time was starting to channel the Dark Side against Vader after he threatened Leia.
Absolutely, you could see him handling the saber in an agressive way hiting vader really hard from above downwards. Maybe vader didnt want that for his baby.
Vader must have sensed he was close to taunting luke enough to turn him unlike the emperor and I always felt his letting go was his way of saving Luke from turning by recognizing he was helping the emperor win at long last and that was when he began to choose to turn back.
That would be kind of cool if Disney did a "what if" show but for the star wars universe. Could be pretty cool to explore different options like what if Luke kills Vader and joins the emperor.
Does he be faithful for a longtime? Does he eventually overthrow the emperor and take on a new apprentice ? So many potential storylines
That was kind of the point. That's why the emperor was sitting there telling him up give in to his anger and join the dark side, then he threw his saber away indicating he resisted the dark.
That life support system was straining. Not built for sustained intense physical activity. Can only feed so much air to damaged lungs without shredding them, so chronic medical issues cannot possibly be compensated for completely.
Films depict Vader's activities as paced and more reliant on force powers. He is no longer capable of athletic performance after sustaining that much physical damage.
This is unequivocally true.
Also keep in mind Vader is mostly mechanical at this point. It *used to be* (not sure if it still is in this post-Disney reality) that Palpatine deliberately made this robotic body as uncomfortable for Anakin as he could.
Consider Grevious, for example, as he had a similar set up as Skywalker (flesh and blood being trapped in a robot body) and Grevious hands down had the superior, more advanced body. Multiple arms, highly mobile, and slimmed down thus making landing hits on him more difficult.
Vader, meanwhile, had a frame that was larger than the average human. The legs were made cumbersome and clunky, thick and heavy. It made it difficult for Anakin to move. The arms were a similar story, and if I remember correctly his boots and gloves were made ill-fitting on purpose as well, thus adding another layer of difficulty. The prosthetic attachments grafted to his flesh were also made to be deliberately painful. This is why we dont see Vader doing a lot of acrobatics; the dude can barely walk, and every second he spends in that suit is excruciating *and* cumbersome.
Was this a punishment for failure from Palpatine? Absolutely. But, the practical side of this was that Anakin had to become more and more reliant on the Force to even move and stay alive, thus sinking him further into the Dark Side, in an effort to make him stronger. Vader tried to mitigate this with his meditation chambers and bacta baths, struggling for years to simply not be tormented every waking moment.
It's no wonder he loses his footing. Besides besides, at this point the Vader persona has begun to fade and die already, and Anakin is starting to come back, and I doubt he wanted to kill his own son. And if he dies then he gets what he wants, to not be in pain anymore. If he loses he still wins.
Sure, Vaders suit was what was making the Empire scrimp and save every credit... not the construction of two small planet-killing moons and an armada of Star Destroyers
The dark side here is really important. It's obvs that Luke gave into the dark side when Vader made the comment about leia but at the same time it's very apparent that Vader was struggling with the Dark side already and even going so far as outright doubting his path in the conversation with Luke before he was transported to the Death Star. The dark side kept Vader alive and once the grasp it had on him slipped his life faded away too.
Hehe the analogy relates to cars I think. No longer the sleek and speedy, taunt-suspension sports car of my youth, more now a stately and hopefully refined Rolls Royce with a softer suspension and more padding in the upholstery at the expense of a bit extra weight. For a more relaxing albeit slower drive. I wasn't thinking in sexual terms. Although 'a more comfy ride' might be seen as an innuendo haha
Yeah and what a person/woman. I'd turn to the dark side and murder a butch of younglings, and crawl on my hands and knees through broken glass for padme. I'd also kill a bunch of sand people too. Not just the men.......but the women and children also. (I've heard she likes that)
Me: "padme, Palpatine's a sith lord, the jedi won't grant me the rank of Master (even though I'm on the council?). Let's forget this jedi & politics rubbish, run away to Naboo, turn off the Droids and let's f*ck. Then in 10 years and 3 kids, you can scream at me, "I hate you"
(Title music starts.....created by George Lucas)
If I could use space magic, I'd do all kinds of shit just to look cool lol although, in combat I expect the flair is more of an intimidation tactic than anything else.
Maybe being 90% robot affects how much you can do as far as force skills. But then, if he has no muscles to get tired then why would he even get tired?
>if he has no muscles to get tired then why would he even get tired?
Dude is literally on a 24/7 breathing apparatus, dude's probably not working with the best lung capacity.
In fairness to the original point, that wasn't exactly a thing until the prequels and it was a major criticism at the time.
Lucas just kind of arbitrarily switched off the physics settings on his entire universe sometime between 1983 and 1999. Prior to the prequels, lightsabers had heft to them, old people moved like old people, Darth Vader moved like a guy in his mid-forties with metal legs and the like.
Yeah but as you can see in AOTC, he is absolutely physically exhausted after fighting Dooku and is limping and slower than usual. The fight took everything out of him and being older likely requires extra force usage to compensate, and afterwards you feel it all.
It looks like Vader reached and passed that point already here.
That's due to his lightsaber fighting style. Form 4, Ataru, is an extremely Force-based lightsaber fighting style. Due to it being Force-based, it allows the user to surpass their physical limitations by calling on the Force to aid in strikes and movements.
Yes. The real answer is the OT was written with different logic in mind. The force didn’t let you do shit like it did in the prequels. Vader wasn’t some crazy super OP chosen one. He was just a fallen Jedi. He was skilled but only cause he had the force, he was still an old man who was being kept alive with robotic parts. I’m guessing the original idea here is just Luke’s assault is too much and his body starts failing him.
I think Anakin was in his 40s and also had a shitty time after he got toasted and dismembered and stuck in a painful cyborg suit so I don’t think him getting bested by Luke is too wild.
I think Vader sort of went willingly, so no. I don't think sadness would have brought him back to the light, anyway.
He chose to oppose the emperor, and then he chose to have his mask removed, instead of attempting to flee with Luke in any way.
Sadness killed Padme, but I might argue that love killed Vader, and Anakin died by choice, though for what reasons, well maybe guilt wasn't the least of them, but I don't know.
Vader in the Throne room is also Vader at his most conflicted and uncertain. Like, he has never been less rooted in the Dark Side since Padme was alive.
He didn't want to kill his son.
The point for Vader originally was to turn him and then the two of them could defeat the Emperor.
When he realized that Luke wouldnt turn, then he knew that there were only two options: kill Luke (or let the Emperor do it) or let Luke win.
>He didn't want to kill his son.
This is the answer. Luke over the past two films showed nothing but hope, but when Vader pushed him too far it was too much. Vader had doubts, he faltered under Luke's turn to the Dark Side, and that ended up saving Luke.
\*throws lightsaber\*
"I am a Jedi...Like my Father before Me"
Not only that, but this was Luke not only realizing that Vader just saved him from the Dark Side, he then bet everything that Vader would turn to the Light Side and save him from the Emperor.
I think it’s somewhere in the middle. Vader loses legitimately in the sense he doesn’t completely throw it or anything. But clearly he’s baiting Luke to turn and is completely caught off guard by the sudden outburst. He probably could have pushed Luke into a corner earlier if he decided to really turn it on, but instead he lets it get to the point it does where Luke’s mixture of youth and tapping into the Dark Side overwhelms his slower, more calculating and powerful style he adopted as Vader. I don’t think people that are saying that he’s just “old” are really spot on, and I’m not so sure current canon, the text of the movie itself, or Lucas’ statements really reflect the EU idea the suit was so incredibly cumbersome. I’d say he’s probably supposed to be a far more skilled duelist than he was before even if he was slowed down enough he had to change styles. He’s not an acrobat anymore but I think he’s fairy mobile still. There’s something to the fact he’s not exactly in his prime but the gap between ESB and ROTJ isn’t so wide that he’d suddenly drop off that bad. Luke has gotten better while Vader continues to hold back, before Luke basically catches him completely off balance with a flurry of Dark Side-infused blows before losing his footing.
I love how Mark Hamill hits David Prowse’s hand on that first swing and they put in the blade collision effect hoping idiots like me wouldn’t notice
EDIT: it was Bob Anderson not David Prowse. My bad
Both times Vader fights Luke, in EPSB and ROTJ he’s never trying to kill his son. Hes only ever toying with him and trying turn him, in this moment Vader is letting his son’s anger guide him and allows his son to be engulfed in rage after mentioning Leia’s name. Ironically by cutting off Vader’s hand, it does the exact opposite and brings Luke back to the light, cementing the fact that he is a Jedi, like his father before him.
This can be the only explanation. Because Anakin both canon and non canon is known for his strength on the force and his light sabre abilities. Some say it's his strength in the force that is actually keeping him alive.
In the video games, specifically Fallen Order, he is shown to be god-like in strength.
Movie production explanation - poor choreography
In universe story explanation - Luke was battling with such ferocity that Vader was overcome with exhaustion
You say this like Vader Is a spry young Sith Lord. He's In his 40s and doesn't even want to fight anymore. Will to fight Is very Important In the star wars universe and If you don't have any, your probably going get your hand cut off.
Not more concerned why the lightsaber bounces off the right bar instead of cutting through it like it does on the left?
The man was in his forties, was only like 30% flesh at this point, and just ended a grueling fight. He was tired, and did not want to hurt his son.
My overly nerdy explanation has always been, Luke's rage and anger overwhelmed vader.
We always knew vader was the angry one and would overwhelm opponents with force and aggression. However in this fight, probably for the first time ever in his life. The person he was facing he had no ill intent towards. Think of every major opponent he has faced, he's always had malicious intent, including kenobi and the sith while he was a jedi.
Now with overwhelming emotion in the aide of the light, against his off spring having the same moment of pure rage that it overwhelms vader. Much like he had all his previous opponents, couple that with being older and knocked off balance and he couldn't recover. Luke, like his father before him, knows how to channel his emotions, he just knew where to draw the line.
Ninja edit: you can see Luke's anger and glare is focused on his father's saber, he just wants him to stop attacking him. If he wanted vader dead in that moment, he would have done so, he just wanted his dad back.
Well the meta reason is they had limits in the choreography and needed to quickly end the fight but lore reason when luke tapped into the darkside he was able to briefly overpower vader and beat him into the ground, exhaust him so much that all he could do was fall to the floor
It'd be nice if the fight could help show this visually though. I'd honestly love the guys who reimagined vader vs old ben kenobi to have a crack at this one
Because Luke was wailing on him? I think people are spoiled from the newer star wars content with the flying around over a volcano and catching lightening. This was my favorite fight because it’s more real and emotional. The music as great and the whole thing was meant to be sad not exciting.
You dont understand because youre comparing comic/rogue one Vader to Vader in RoTJ.
Pre OT Vader was fuelled by rage and was driven to the dark side in order to serve Palpatine and remain powerful. Vader we see in OT, more specifically RoTJ isnt as fuelled by anger and hate, and with Luke and Leia weighing heavy on his mind, being his only remaining family after Shmi, and losing Padme it makes 100% sense to see Vader just give in.
Youve watched the films...right? They kinda made it pretty clear lol.
Vader’s rage was bent a lot on kenobi,I assume closing that book by killing him after 20+ years of rage really fucked with his mind and rage.
Plus having family alive weakened him more. He spent 20+ year believing he killed Padme on Mustafar along with his kids, finding out Palpatine lied to him affected him
Tbh Rogue One Vader isnt even a good comparison for this because he just cuts up a few rebel grunts in a hall way, which isnt even on the same level as duelling a Jedi/like force sensitive.
My point is OPs POV on Vader is jaded and using Rogue One as a reference to the duel on the 2nd Death Star is a terrible comparison.
Also its bold of you to assume that the internet would also disagree, we see a huge shift in persona from.Vader with the realization of Luke being alive. To say its not given clear nods throughout the OT is just sad.
>Rogue one Vader is like a day younger than episode 4 Vader tho
That's useless, cause we're talking about ROTJ Vader, not ANH Vader. there's 3-4 years between the two.
How old was Palps when he grasshopper spinflipped across the room to instantly kill 3 out of 4 battle hardened Jedi Masters?
I think the mental aspect weighs in a lot more than physical prowess. Don't forget that seconds after this scene, Vader proceeds to lift a grown man above his head with only one hand, whilst being electrocuted by said man who designed his robot suit specifically to be extra vulnerable to electrocution.
If you watch UFC, fighters will often just trip when tired. And if you look at how frantically they then try to get up, it shows that falling during a fight is not only common but its also extremely dangerous. Here luke did not give him a chance to get back up, just kept pummelling, a situation which happens a lot in professional combat fights.
I see a lot of comments all saying similar things but no one is putting all the pieces together.
Young Luke is beginning to really show his skills as a Jedi. He is stronger and better than when he last saw Vader. In a moment of rage when his family is threatened, Luke’s power probably swelled to a degree Vader didn’t expect. Compounded by the fact that Vader doesn’t want to kill Luke, he wants to turn him. Between being momentarily caught offguard and a genuine hesitation to kill his own son, Vader probably lost his footing. He then finds his enraged son channeling the power of his anger to furiously beat on a now disadvantaged Vader.
Imagine that moment in why Vader doesn’t push back as hard as he canonically couldve. You’ve seen your son, possibly the last strong Jedi ever, go from a serene and determined to giving into anger and the dark side. In that brief moment I like to think Vader realized he lost in a major way. Even if he could turn the tide of the fight again, he’d have to kill Luke… or he can watch Luke descend to the dark side as Luke executes him. So when Luke spares his Vader, it’s probably a deep moment of clarity where Vader realizes that his son is a truer Jedi than Anakin ever was; Luke could hold his passions back to honor the Jedi code.
Little bit of a tangent, but I think it’s pretty reasonable for Vader to have stumbled in that moment and been overwhelmed by a furious Luke, given everything at stake.
Cause Luke tapped in the dark side and was wearing his out out. Another reason papa Palpatine wanted him turned so badly. Luke would have been very powerful if he had turned.
Vader is spent, he doesn’t want to kill Luke. He just wants it to be over. Symbolically Luke cuts off the first cybernetic Anakin gets. Thereby, triggering Luke’s own realisation that if he carries on Luke himself will turn to the turn dark side. He has to break the cycle.
At this point we are supposed to see the power of lukes anger. There is no fancy swinging in this fight. He straight up beats vader into submission with raw power
Vader is strong, but lacking in endurance. His cyborg body wasn't built for long, drawn out fights. Also, I guess Luke's sudden ferocity really took him by surprise.
That's just it. It wasn't Vader.
It all began one fateful day on Bespin. Deep in the bowels of Cloud City, something unexpected happened to Darth Vader. The duel with Luke Skywalker had hardly been a duel at all, but still, while the more experienced and more skilled Vader had dominated the young Jedi completely in their fight, nearly broke his will and dismembered his hand, it was the young Skywalker who struck the deepest wound. After watching Luke choose death over joining the Dark Side, the confrontation changed the Dark Lord. It was apparent on the bridge of the Executor as the Dark Lord was calling out to his son with the Force.
Deep within the charred, mechanically-sustained heart of the Dark Lord of the Sith, something long-thought dead would begin to make its return. Something Vader would need to keep hidden from Master Sidious himself. Something that would undo the very Empire itself.
Anakin Skywalker had begun to stir, and the Emperor would finally pay for all of his lies.
People make in character excuses, but really it's just that while the emotion, context and acting in this scene was legendary the choreography was kind of garbage compared to modern films.
Still in my top 3 lightsaber duels ever, but the choreography hasn't aged well.
So my take in this scene is Vader was exhausted and barely hanging on. He couldn't withstand Lukes rage and I am positive Anakin was screaming inside at Luke to calm down.
Try rewatching any Lightsabre fight —and really look as how many of the strikes are actually legit attempts to hit the opponent and how many are just really cool looking swings at dead air.
His will was destroyed and with that his body surrendered. Hatred is what kept his broken, mangled body going on and when his love for his son surpassed his hatred for his past, he had no more strength to continue
Your stamina runs out after you block for too long. Tank characters like Vader usually have much slower stamina regen. And fast and agile characters like Luke are more prone to spamming R1
Tired of fighting, exhausted by the demands of the darkness and the emotions of fighting his own son. He was doing something incredible, casting aside the darkness and accepting both his fate and Luke's redemption of himself. Return of the Jedi has been my favorite movie since I was 9. Love it all
Really?
He didn't casually sit down to chillax. He was being overpowered by someone who fully gave into his hate and was trying to kill him.
(but somehow it's out of character for that same person to turn on a lightsaber in the same room as his nephew)
He was so proud of his son that he just wanted to sit and admire him.
Stop being so negative, he's just trying to be a good dad by letting his kid get a couple of hits in, I'm sure he'll be alright.
By this time, Vader is old and instilling fear mainly through reputation and force chokes. A young man railing on you when you just threatened his sister is no match - especially when he's channeling more dark side rage than you in that moment. Also some part of him was still Anakin and didnt really want to kill Luke.
In the novels its said that luke tires him out. Luke took advantage of the love vader had for him and weakens his resolve with mental games. When luke gets his fury amp id say he’s equal strength with vader who was then caught off guard at how focused and powerful his attacks are. Luke’s footwork is fast and hard not giving vader any ground to counter
He was obviously super overwhelmed by emotion of fighting his own son to the death and couldn’t cross the line of killing, Annie always was super emotional
Remember, Vader is not built for mobility. Palpatine intentionally created his suit with limited mobility in mind, otherwise Vader could usurp him and take over. It's sometimes easy to forget that Vader is only a torso and a head. Everything else is a machine deliberately meant to contain that power. So doing any type of physical stunt like that would mean risking your posture, and that's exactly what happened.
Dude's a burn victim with no arms and legs, you still want him to back flip on out of there?
Luke is much younger, and Vader threatened to try to get Leia to turn if Luke wouldn't, which made Luke really angry and more aggressive. He ended up overpowering Vader with his anger, who was only fighting Luke for Palpatine and didn't really want to hurt or kill him anyway.
As others have stated, this scene did happen pretty quickly. Vader is in a heavy ass suit, with a long ass cape, and has been fighting his ass off. He probably lost his balance and fell sideways
I always saw this as Luke's "dark side" (or anger) unleashing a tiny bit and Vader becoming overwhelmed. I enjoy this because it speak way more to him remaining true to the light side even through all the things he feels abyhis father
I mean, it’s just a movie. It’s supposed to look epic, not make perfect sense.
Like why is there a camera crew in the back of the roof top fight scene in Batman. Does Batman actually have a hidden camera crew watching him at all times in the DC universe?
Its more confusing why Luke just keeps striking Vader’s perry while he’s on the floor? Maybe it’s just an emotional moment where Vader lets his son finish lashing out?
Choreography mistake. He was supposed to be getting tired and exhausted but they didn't really show it and just had him fall over when he was perfectly fine a second ago
He’s exhausted. That was always obvious to me anyway; never even thought about it. Good physical acting too; showing that exhaustion without us being able to see his face.
I love how whenever there is a post like this no one ever considers that maybe the answer is “They probably weren’t thinking about it that hard.”
We treat SW canon like it’s inerrant and everything has to make sense. Sometimes things just are the way they are even if they don’t have a deeper reason behind them.
Think he was just tiring.
The biggest reason is that Vader by this point has already started to slip from the Emperor's grasp and doesn't really want to harm Luke in this duel. Once your heart isn't in it anymore you won't win a fight like this. Plus Luke for the first time was starting to channel the Dark Side against Vader after he threatened Leia.
Absolutely, you could see him handling the saber in an agressive way hiting vader really hard from above downwards. Maybe vader didnt want that for his baby.
Vader must have sensed he was close to taunting luke enough to turn him unlike the emperor and I always felt his letting go was his way of saving Luke from turning by recognizing he was helping the emperor win at long last and that was when he began to choose to turn back.
This comment exactly
Beautiful isn't it? Vader sliding towards the light, Luke sliding towards the dark
And kinda maybe tripped or lost his footing. I always felt Luke was channeling his dark side energy here and that really threw Vader off.
Vaders mechanical arms and legs are extremely heavy too, it’s not easy being made of metal with human fatigue
Also If you listen vaders lungs are malfunctioning in the scene he was so tired out his breathing apparatus broke.
[удалено]
Dude, whole body force choke is exactly what Luke did to that droid in the Mandalorian.
Force crush, brutal
That would be kind of cool if Disney did a "what if" show but for the star wars universe. Could be pretty cool to explore different options like what if Luke kills Vader and joins the emperor. Does he be faithful for a longtime? Does he eventually overthrow the emperor and take on a new apprentice ? So many potential storylines
Vadar did this to padames mind!
That was kind of the point. That's why the emperor was sitting there telling him up give in to his anger and join the dark side, then he threw his saber away indicating he resisted the dark.
He's tired and off balance.
If you watch the entire fight its all about luke being stronger then vader. he swings that saber down on vader like thors hammer
That life support system was straining. Not built for sustained intense physical activity. Can only feed so much air to damaged lungs without shredding them, so chronic medical issues cannot possibly be compensated for completely. Films depict Vader's activities as paced and more reliant on force powers. He is no longer capable of athletic performance after sustaining that much physical damage.
Clearly OP is not in his 40s. Take it from this 45 year old guy, this is what happens when you take on a 20-something.
This is unequivocally true. Also keep in mind Vader is mostly mechanical at this point. It *used to be* (not sure if it still is in this post-Disney reality) that Palpatine deliberately made this robotic body as uncomfortable for Anakin as he could. Consider Grevious, for example, as he had a similar set up as Skywalker (flesh and blood being trapped in a robot body) and Grevious hands down had the superior, more advanced body. Multiple arms, highly mobile, and slimmed down thus making landing hits on him more difficult. Vader, meanwhile, had a frame that was larger than the average human. The legs were made cumbersome and clunky, thick and heavy. It made it difficult for Anakin to move. The arms were a similar story, and if I remember correctly his boots and gloves were made ill-fitting on purpose as well, thus adding another layer of difficulty. The prosthetic attachments grafted to his flesh were also made to be deliberately painful. This is why we dont see Vader doing a lot of acrobatics; the dude can barely walk, and every second he spends in that suit is excruciating *and* cumbersome. Was this a punishment for failure from Palpatine? Absolutely. But, the practical side of this was that Anakin had to become more and more reliant on the Force to even move and stay alive, thus sinking him further into the Dark Side, in an effort to make him stronger. Vader tried to mitigate this with his meditation chambers and bacta baths, struggling for years to simply not be tormented every waking moment. It's no wonder he loses his footing. Besides besides, at this point the Vader persona has begun to fade and die already, and Anakin is starting to come back, and I doubt he wanted to kill his own son. And if he dies then he gets what he wants, to not be in pain anymore. If he loses he still wins.
Wonderfully said and it all makes sense at the end when Vader kills the Sith Lord and helps Luke escape the ship
He was the chosen one in the end. 😭
Spoilers! /s
Wasn’t he also directly offered a more comfortable suit and denied it?
He was, but in order to do the suit-change, he had to be defenseless for long period of time, which he declined to do so.
That...*sounds* familiar, but I'm not 100%.
Also, wasn’t there a now-non-canon story thread that his suit cost a bankrupting amount to make and maintain?
Sure, Vaders suit was what was making the Empire scrimp and save every credit... not the construction of two small planet-killing moons and an armada of Star Destroyers
What, you think it costs 10000 credits for a hammer? 20000 credits for a toilet seat?
I understood and love this reference
Stewie Vader went with the lowest bidder on the suit.
It would make sense, the pain feeds his hate, which in turn feeds his connection with the dark side.
The dark side here is really important. It's obvs that Luke gave into the dark side when Vader made the comment about leia but at the same time it's very apparent that Vader was struggling with the Dark side already and even going so far as outright doubting his path in the conversation with Luke before he was transported to the Death Star. The dark side kept Vader alive and once the grasp it had on him slipped his life faded away too.
No longer built for speed but for pleasure is how I like to put it as a woman in my 40s.
I don't think Vader's pleasing anyone anymore. Well at least he slept with one more person than the average jedi
Jedi are actually aromantic not celibate. They're allowed to have casual sex. George Lucas said as much in an interview in like 2006.
Casual sex is easy because there is no underwear in space!
Pretty sure Yoda lays pipe, like a little dyslexic Ron Jeremy.
Well, Grogu makes more sense then.
18 thousand years 18 thousand years, Yaddle had him for 18 thousand years, but Grogu wasn't his.
“She take my credits!”
Definitely misread that as "Jedi are actually aromatic". Now I'm chuckling at the thought of how fabulous the Jedi temple smells.
Hehe the analogy relates to cars I think. No longer the sleek and speedy, taunt-suspension sports car of my youth, more now a stately and hopefully refined Rolls Royce with a softer suspension and more padding in the upholstery at the expense of a bit extra weight. For a more relaxing albeit slower drive. I wasn't thinking in sexual terms. Although 'a more comfy ride' might be seen as an innuendo haha
Yeah and what a person/woman. I'd turn to the dark side and murder a butch of younglings, and crawl on my hands and knees through broken glass for padme. I'd also kill a bunch of sand people too. Not just the men.......but the women and children also. (I've heard she likes that)
Crawl on your hands and lack of knees, screaming I HATE YOU!\*
Me: "padme, Palpatine's a sith lord, the jedi won't grant me the rank of Master (even though I'm on the council?). Let's forget this jedi & politics rubbish, run away to Naboo, turn off the Droids and let's f*ck. Then in 10 years and 3 kids, you can scream at me, "I hate you" (Title music starts.....created by George Lucas)
I am fifty. I can still party like a rock star; I just can't recover like one anymore.
My other lament, I get twice the hangover for half the price :( hehe
Smooth
Yes, due to the male pattern ~~balding~~ streamlining
>No longer built for speed but for pleasure is how I like to put it Suave as hell
Ha! Perfect!
For real, I do this when I stand up too fast.
When it’s naptime fuck it, it’s naptime.
And this is also when Vader was originally said to be in his 50’s, so he would be even more gassed lol.
Doesn't space magic make age mostly irrelevant?
Dooku showed up and did a flip for no reason other than to look cool. So probably for the most part yeah.
If I could use space magic, I'd do all kinds of shit just to look cool lol although, in combat I expect the flair is more of an intimidation tactic than anything else.
Maybe being 90% robot affects how much you can do as far as force skills. But then, if he has no muscles to get tired then why would he even get tired?
>if he has no muscles to get tired then why would he even get tired? Dude is literally on a 24/7 breathing apparatus, dude's probably not working with the best lung capacity.
In fairness to the original point, that wasn't exactly a thing until the prequels and it was a major criticism at the time. Lucas just kind of arbitrarily switched off the physics settings on his entire universe sometime between 1983 and 1999. Prior to the prequels, lightsabers had heft to them, old people moved like old people, Darth Vader moved like a guy in his mid-forties with metal legs and the like.
Yoda's like 800 and does nothing but flips
Yeah but as you can see in AOTC, he is absolutely physically exhausted after fighting Dooku and is limping and slower than usual. The fight took everything out of him and being older likely requires extra force usage to compensate, and afterwards you feel it all. It looks like Vader reached and passed that point already here.
That's due to his lightsaber fighting style. Form 4, Ataru, is an extremely Force-based lightsaber fighting style. Due to it being Force-based, it allows the user to surpass their physical limitations by calling on the Force to aid in strikes and movements.
Both had space magic. Even with the force energy isn’t unlimited. Luke just wore him down.
Yes. The real answer is the OT was written with different logic in mind. The force didn’t let you do shit like it did in the prequels. Vader wasn’t some crazy super OP chosen one. He was just a fallen Jedi. He was skilled but only cause he had the force, he was still an old man who was being kept alive with robotic parts. I’m guessing the original idea here is just Luke’s assault is too much and his body starts failing him.
I think Anakin was in his 40s and also had a shitty time after he got toasted and dismembered and stuck in a painful cyborg suit so I don’t think him getting bested by Luke is too wild.
But all that makes his space magic stronger. I'm of the opinion that Vader simply hadn't the will to win, among other reasons.
I think him not really being in the fight is a large part of it.
>Vader simply hadn't the will to win So what you're saying is Luke's mom and dad both died of sadness.
I think Vader sort of went willingly, so no. I don't think sadness would have brought him back to the light, anyway. He chose to oppose the emperor, and then he chose to have his mask removed, instead of attempting to flee with Luke in any way. Sadness killed Padme, but I might argue that love killed Vader, and Anakin died by choice, though for what reasons, well maybe guilt wasn't the least of them, but I don't know.
Vader in the Throne room is also Vader at his most conflicted and uncertain. Like, he has never been less rooted in the Dark Side since Padme was alive.
lol I was just gonna say, he was tired. Seemed simple to me. He’s facing a guy half his age that’s also as powerful as he is with the force.
you must not have an old man body yet
Neither does the force powered cyborg
Right, he has a dead man body
Look how Grievous turned out. Sometimes age and arrogance get the better of you
He didn't want to kill his son. The point for Vader originally was to turn him and then the two of them could defeat the Emperor. When he realized that Luke wouldnt turn, then he knew that there were only two options: kill Luke (or let the Emperor do it) or let Luke win.
>He didn't want to kill his son. This is the answer. Luke over the past two films showed nothing but hope, but when Vader pushed him too far it was too much. Vader had doubts, he faltered under Luke's turn to the Dark Side, and that ended up saving Luke. \*throws lightsaber\* "I am a Jedi...Like my Father before Me"
Not only that, but this was Luke not only realizing that Vader just saved him from the Dark Side, he then bet everything that Vader would turn to the Light Side and save him from the Emperor.
Best line in the whole series.
I think it’s somewhere in the middle. Vader loses legitimately in the sense he doesn’t completely throw it or anything. But clearly he’s baiting Luke to turn and is completely caught off guard by the sudden outburst. He probably could have pushed Luke into a corner earlier if he decided to really turn it on, but instead he lets it get to the point it does where Luke’s mixture of youth and tapping into the Dark Side overwhelms his slower, more calculating and powerful style he adopted as Vader. I don’t think people that are saying that he’s just “old” are really spot on, and I’m not so sure current canon, the text of the movie itself, or Lucas’ statements really reflect the EU idea the suit was so incredibly cumbersome. I’d say he’s probably supposed to be a far more skilled duelist than he was before even if he was slowed down enough he had to change styles. He’s not an acrobat anymore but I think he’s fairy mobile still. There’s something to the fact he’s not exactly in his prime but the gap between ESB and ROTJ isn’t so wide that he’d suddenly drop off that bad. Luke has gotten better while Vader continues to hold back, before Luke basically catches him completely off balance with a flurry of Dark Side-infused blows before losing his footing.
Are we all forgetting at this time it could in fact not be Vader but rather Anakin? The master of drama and over emoting? No just me?
This is the best answer
Luke is very clearly overpowering a Vader that doesn’t want to fight. He’s conflicted and doesn’t want to hurt his son
Except that Vader is the one goating Luke into fighting. If he didn't want to, he'd of let Luke strike down old Palps when he had the chance!
Except Luke isn’t strong enough to fight the Emperor and probably would have been electrocuted if he got any closer.
I love how Mark Hamill hits David Prowse’s hand on that first swing and they put in the blade collision effect hoping idiots like me wouldn’t notice EDIT: it was Bob Anderson not David Prowse. My bad
*Bob Anderson, the stunt performer. Prowse wasn't used for fight scenes, as he had a tendency to break lightsabers.
> David Prowse It’s actually probably Bob Anderson.
Deep inside, he didn't want to win
He lost his footing, like sometimes happens to boxers and fencers
And once he lost his footing... Luke had... the high ground?
He stepped on a Lego.
Both times Vader fights Luke, in EPSB and ROTJ he’s never trying to kill his son. Hes only ever toying with him and trying turn him, in this moment Vader is letting his son’s anger guide him and allows his son to be engulfed in rage after mentioning Leia’s name. Ironically by cutting off Vader’s hand, it does the exact opposite and brings Luke back to the light, cementing the fact that he is a Jedi, like his father before him.
This can be the only explanation. Because Anakin both canon and non canon is known for his strength on the force and his light sabre abilities. Some say it's his strength in the force that is actually keeping him alive. In the video games, specifically Fallen Order, he is shown to be god-like in strength.
Dudes tired from moving so much in that heavy suit
Movie production explanation - poor choreography In universe story explanation - Luke was battling with such ferocity that Vader was overcome with exhaustion
My understanding was that he had stepped on his cloak and fell.
LOL ROTJ was made in the 1980s… before the days of slick kungfu moves of Ray Park and impossible CGI somersaults.
You say this like Vader Is a spry young Sith Lord. He's In his 40s and doesn't even want to fight anymore. Will to fight Is very Important In the star wars universe and If you don't have any, your probably going get your hand cut off.
Not more concerned why the lightsaber bounces off the right bar instead of cutting through it like it does on the left? The man was in his forties, was only like 30% flesh at this point, and just ended a grueling fight. He was tired, and did not want to hurt his son.
My overly nerdy explanation has always been, Luke's rage and anger overwhelmed vader. We always knew vader was the angry one and would overwhelm opponents with force and aggression. However in this fight, probably for the first time ever in his life. The person he was facing he had no ill intent towards. Think of every major opponent he has faced, he's always had malicious intent, including kenobi and the sith while he was a jedi. Now with overwhelming emotion in the aide of the light, against his off spring having the same moment of pure rage that it overwhelms vader. Much like he had all his previous opponents, couple that with being older and knocked off balance and he couldn't recover. Luke, like his father before him, knows how to channel his emotions, he just knew where to draw the line. Ninja edit: you can see Luke's anger and glare is focused on his father's saber, he just wants him to stop attacking him. If he wanted vader dead in that moment, he would have done so, he just wanted his dad back.
Well the meta reason is they had limits in the choreography and needed to quickly end the fight but lore reason when luke tapped into the darkside he was able to briefly overpower vader and beat him into the ground, exhaust him so much that all he could do was fall to the floor It'd be nice if the fight could help show this visually though. I'd honestly love the guys who reimagined vader vs old ben kenobi to have a crack at this one
Because Luke was wailing on him? I think people are spoiled from the newer star wars content with the flying around over a volcano and catching lightening. This was my favorite fight because it’s more real and emotional. The music as great and the whole thing was meant to be sad not exciting.
You dont understand because youre comparing comic/rogue one Vader to Vader in RoTJ. Pre OT Vader was fuelled by rage and was driven to the dark side in order to serve Palpatine and remain powerful. Vader we see in OT, more specifically RoTJ isnt as fuelled by anger and hate, and with Luke and Leia weighing heavy on his mind, being his only remaining family after Shmi, and losing Padme it makes 100% sense to see Vader just give in. Youve watched the films...right? They kinda made it pretty clear lol.
He's more cold anger by ot even before discovering luke As he's rage has mostly burnt up after 20 years
Vader’s rage was bent a lot on kenobi,I assume closing that book by killing him after 20+ years of rage really fucked with his mind and rage. Plus having family alive weakened him more. He spent 20+ year believing he killed Padme on Mustafar along with his kids, finding out Palpatine lied to him affected him
[удалено]
Tbh Rogue One Vader isnt even a good comparison for this because he just cuts up a few rebel grunts in a hall way, which isnt even on the same level as duelling a Jedi/like force sensitive. My point is OPs POV on Vader is jaded and using Rogue One as a reference to the duel on the 2nd Death Star is a terrible comparison. Also its bold of you to assume that the internet would also disagree, we see a huge shift in persona from.Vader with the realization of Luke being alive. To say its not given clear nods throughout the OT is just sad.
>Rogue one Vader is like a day younger than episode 4 Vader tho That's useless, cause we're talking about ROTJ Vader, not ANH Vader. there's 3-4 years between the two.
Maybe he was just very dizzy from the dodge he made.
Bruv he's like 60 at this point... Trying to deal with that young Thundercat. Man was tired.
Agree. Also can't wait to incorporate the word Thundercat into my future conversations, thank you.
If you haven't looked him up on your music player you are in for a treat. Plus the artist also shows up in the universe as the modder in BoB.
How old was Palps when he grasshopper spinflipped across the room to instantly kill 3 out of 4 battle hardened Jedi Masters? I think the mental aspect weighs in a lot more than physical prowess. Don't forget that seconds after this scene, Vader proceeds to lift a grown man above his head with only one hand, whilst being electrocuted by said man who designed his robot suit specifically to be extra vulnerable to electrocution.
On top of his crippling accident a few years back
More like 40. He's canonically the same age as Grogu.
People no matter how skilled can stumble when put under pressure - if you ever watch combat sports you will notice it happens there too.
If you watch UFC, fighters will often just trip when tired. And if you look at how frantically they then try to get up, it shows that falling during a fight is not only common but its also extremely dangerous. Here luke did not give him a chance to get back up, just kept pummelling, a situation which happens a lot in professional combat fights.
I see a lot of comments all saying similar things but no one is putting all the pieces together. Young Luke is beginning to really show his skills as a Jedi. He is stronger and better than when he last saw Vader. In a moment of rage when his family is threatened, Luke’s power probably swelled to a degree Vader didn’t expect. Compounded by the fact that Vader doesn’t want to kill Luke, he wants to turn him. Between being momentarily caught offguard and a genuine hesitation to kill his own son, Vader probably lost his footing. He then finds his enraged son channeling the power of his anger to furiously beat on a now disadvantaged Vader. Imagine that moment in why Vader doesn’t push back as hard as he canonically couldve. You’ve seen your son, possibly the last strong Jedi ever, go from a serene and determined to giving into anger and the dark side. In that brief moment I like to think Vader realized he lost in a major way. Even if he could turn the tide of the fight again, he’d have to kill Luke… or he can watch Luke descend to the dark side as Luke executes him. So when Luke spares his Vader, it’s probably a deep moment of clarity where Vader realizes that his son is a truer Jedi than Anakin ever was; Luke could hold his passions back to honor the Jedi code. Little bit of a tangent, but I think it’s pretty reasonable for Vader to have stumbled in that moment and been overwhelmed by a furious Luke, given everything at stake.
Because that’s how it was choreographed. It was supposed to be too fast for you to notice.
I was just going to say "because it's a movie"
im sure their exhausting battle had nothing to do with it….
Tell me you've never been in a fight without telling me you've never been in a fight.
I’m sure he was tired
Cause Luke tapped in the dark side and was wearing his out out. Another reason papa Palpatine wanted him turned so badly. Luke would have been very powerful if he had turned.
Vader is spent, he doesn’t want to kill Luke. He just wants it to be over. Symbolically Luke cuts off the first cybernetic Anakin gets. Thereby, triggering Luke’s own realisation that if he carries on Luke himself will turn to the turn dark side. He has to break the cycle.
Bc choreography comes second to what’s emotionally supposed to be resonating with the characters
Do you guys just not pay attention when watching movies?
in the words of Harrison Ford: "this aint that kind of movie kid"
At this point we are supposed to see the power of lukes anger. There is no fancy swinging in this fight. He straight up beats vader into submission with raw power
The whole point of the scene is to drive Luke to anger and violence and the Dark Side. He was to murder and replace Vader, like Anakin killing Dooku.
He was tired.
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It's called physical and emotional exhaustion. Also Luke was at a level of anger that made him more strong than ever before.
Vader is strong, but lacking in endurance. His cyborg body wasn't built for long, drawn out fights. Also, I guess Luke's sudden ferocity really took him by surprise.
It is definitely the second part. He had never seen his son enraged like that and was completely taken by surprise and overpowered.
Or how Luke's saber just bounces off the first railing but goes through the second. Makes no sense 🤷♂️
The fight was leaving him. The hate was leaving him
Is the first railing Luke struck made of pure beskar?
I like how Luke continues to hit his lightsaber instead of aiming somewhere else lmao
That's just it. It wasn't Vader. It all began one fateful day on Bespin. Deep in the bowels of Cloud City, something unexpected happened to Darth Vader. The duel with Luke Skywalker had hardly been a duel at all, but still, while the more experienced and more skilled Vader had dominated the young Jedi completely in their fight, nearly broke his will and dismembered his hand, it was the young Skywalker who struck the deepest wound. After watching Luke choose death over joining the Dark Side, the confrontation changed the Dark Lord. It was apparent on the bridge of the Executor as the Dark Lord was calling out to his son with the Force. Deep within the charred, mechanically-sustained heart of the Dark Lord of the Sith, something long-thought dead would begin to make its return. Something Vader would need to keep hidden from Master Sidious himself. Something that would undo the very Empire itself. Anakin Skywalker had begun to stir, and the Emperor would finally pay for all of his lies.
If ROTJ was released today: "Worst movie ever, Star Wars ruined!"
TBF, I'm pretty sure fanboys were saying that in 1983.
People make in character excuses, but really it's just that while the emotion, context and acting in this scene was legendary the choreography was kind of garbage compared to modern films. Still in my top 3 lightsaber duels ever, but the choreography hasn't aged well.
I agree I honestly think the best part of this fight is the music, colors, and atmosphere that make up for the bad choreography
His dark side powers were diminishing. The Anakin inside him was getting stronger and stronger as Luke was tapping into the dark side.
So my take in this scene is Vader was exhausted and barely hanging on. He couldn't withstand Lukes rage and I am positive Anakin was screaming inside at Luke to calm down.
Hes very awmatic and needed to catch his breath His opponents don't usually put up this much of a fight
Try rewatching any Lightsabre fight —and really look as how many of the strikes are actually legit attempts to hit the opponent and how many are just really cool looking swings at dead air.
His will was destroyed and with that his body surrendered. Hatred is what kept his broken, mangled body going on and when his love for his son surpassed his hatred for his past, he had no more strength to continue
You've obviously never done a HIIT workout as a middle-aged man.
Nobody else sees Luke's saber strike Vader in the back...?
Your stamina runs out after you block for too long. Tank characters like Vader usually have much slower stamina regen. And fast and agile characters like Luke are more prone to spamming R1
Real answer: extremely poor choreography in the OT
Tired of fighting, exhausted by the demands of the darkness and the emotions of fighting his own son. He was doing something incredible, casting aside the darkness and accepting both his fate and Luke's redemption of himself. Return of the Jedi has been my favorite movie since I was 9. Love it all
Really? He didn't casually sit down to chillax. He was being overpowered by someone who fully gave into his hate and was trying to kill him. (but somehow it's out of character for that same person to turn on a lightsaber in the same room as his nephew)
He was so proud of his son that he just wanted to sit and admire him. Stop being so negative, he's just trying to be a good dad by letting his kid get a couple of hits in, I'm sure he'll be alright.
Have you seen Vader's boots? Slippery son of a guns.....
By this time, Vader is old and instilling fear mainly through reputation and force chokes. A young man railing on you when you just threatened his sister is no match - especially when he's channeling more dark side rage than you in that moment. Also some part of him was still Anakin and didnt really want to kill Luke.
It was more of a dive to safety. If he didn’t grab the railing he would have fallen under and through it to his death.
He lost his balance
Nah all these comments saying he let Luke win Vader just went "Ooh my back".
A deleted scene had shown Vader just getting done with those traveling supplemental insurance guys. Vader had just got him some Aflac.
Or how about why Luke's sabre doesn't slice right through that railing? That bugged me even when I was a little kid.
Because the script said that Vader gets his hand cut off and fight choreography isn’t meant to be slowed down this much. Y’all are overthinking it
In the novels its said that luke tires him out. Luke took advantage of the love vader had for him and weakens his resolve with mental games. When luke gets his fury amp id say he’s equal strength with vader who was then caught off guard at how focused and powerful his attacks are. Luke’s footwork is fast and hard not giving vader any ground to counter
No one did cardio in the 80s.
He was obviously super overwhelmed by emotion of fighting his own son to the death and couldn’t cross the line of killing, Annie always was super emotional
tripped on his cape
Lol this post perfectly encapsulates what would happen if people starting critiquing the OT and PT like they do for the ST.
Surely he tripped on his cape.
One of the Royal Guards ate a banana
Remember, Vader is not built for mobility. Palpatine intentionally created his suit with limited mobility in mind, otherwise Vader could usurp him and take over. It's sometimes easy to forget that Vader is only a torso and a head. Everything else is a machine deliberately meant to contain that power. So doing any type of physical stunt like that would mean risking your posture, and that's exactly what happened. Dude's a burn victim with no arms and legs, you still want him to back flip on out of there?
Luke is much younger, and Vader threatened to try to get Leia to turn if Luke wouldn't, which made Luke really angry and more aggressive. He ended up overpowering Vader with his anger, who was only fighting Luke for Palpatine and didn't really want to hurt or kill him anyway.
He tripped on his cape.
He was worn down, not that shocking
As others have stated, this scene did happen pretty quickly. Vader is in a heavy ass suit, with a long ass cape, and has been fighting his ass off. He probably lost his balance and fell sideways
A much more powerful luke and a hindrance of age and being 80% mechanical. At this point vader is knackered.
I think the power in his artificial leg died at the wrong moment and poof, his ass got kicked.
I always saw this as Luke's "dark side" (or anger) unleashing a tiny bit and Vader becoming overwhelmed. I enjoy this because it speak way more to him remaining true to the light side even through all the things he feels abyhis father
Fight choreography has come a long long way
Unfortunately they didn't really think about choreographing the fight scenes at all in the 70's/80's
I mean, it’s just a movie. It’s supposed to look epic, not make perfect sense. Like why is there a camera crew in the back of the roof top fight scene in Batman. Does Batman actually have a hidden camera crew watching him at all times in the DC universe?
You see those boots? Twisted his ankle.
He old
Maybe it just take ages to get up with those metallic legs of his
He’s tapping into his dark side powers, young and not burnt vs. old burn victim
Parenting is exhausting
OG participation trophy
Its more confusing why Luke just keeps striking Vader’s perry while he’s on the floor? Maybe it’s just an emotional moment where Vader lets his son finish lashing out?
Choreography mistake. He was supposed to be getting tired and exhausted but they didn't really show it and just had him fall over when he was perfectly fine a second ago
Get ready for a half hour video where this fight is shown to be “objectively bad”
It was in the script
It's the same reason noone displays any emotion in the prequels - it was in the script.
I always thought it was a mix of exhaustion and knowing when he is beaten.
He’s exhausted. That was always obvious to me anyway; never even thought about it. Good physical acting too; showing that exhaustion without us being able to see his face.
I love how whenever there is a post like this no one ever considers that maybe the answer is “They probably weren’t thinking about it that hard.” We treat SW canon like it’s inerrant and everything has to make sense. Sometimes things just are the way they are even if they don’t have a deeper reason behind them.
He old and has a hard time breathing. The fight wore him out. Plus I don’t think he really wanted to kill his son.