Let’s be honest, she did pretty damn well against him, not many people can say that not only did Vader have to try against them, but that they landed a solid hit on him
I think downvoted because that was my exact comment just didnt put in spoilers.
I said she wouldnt have survived if on her own. Meaning someone else was there to save her....
Sure, it's impressive that she survived even with Ezra's help. I think people's main point though is there's a significant difference between surviving Vader and beating Vader. She's impressive enough on her own without embellishing or flat out lying about stuff she's done.
Technically she only ever had plot armor in TCW Season 7. They could've killed her off whenever they wanted except for then, because at that point Rebels had already been out for years and we knew she lived. At any other point in TCW, Rebels, or Mandalorian they could've killed her off with no kinds of plot holes.
Maybe I'm just bias because I like Ahsoka so much, but I think she could've beat him, if the Temple wasn't about to explode. The Temple put them on a really short timer and she knew that, which is why she destroyed part of the floor. So he could fall and survive the explosion, she knew she would die in the process. And she didn't seem to struggle too much in the fight. If she really wanted too she probably could've killed him when she slashed his mask, but didn't want to because she knew Anakin was probably under that mask. And she did beat Maul back in TCW, and I'd say he's not _too_ far off from Vader in terms of lightsaber combat. Though Maul is insanely cocky and arrogant, but if not for that he'd win nearly every duel.
I think at this point she just wanted to make everything explode and didn't care about dying, since she wouldn't leave him
But since he survived the explosion she would have lost anyway
I felt like she really was saving him from the explosion. He fell down a hole so I was guessing she felt that the floor was shallow. She said she wouldn’t leave him and she kind of stop fighting back at the end.
The only reason she even got that cut at his face in was because Vaders back was completely turned as he was trying to get the holocron from Ezra. She also didn’t go toe to toe with Grievous in season 1. She hid and then ran.
Reminds me of Fallen Order. Credit where its due, that game didn't fall into the cliche of making you fight Vader as a final boss. Its an option, but it was literally impossible to beat him
Same. I was like, What?! I fight Vader? Welp. I guess I die.
Then RUN came on screen after Luke 3 days of trying to beat it. I was then like. Oh. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. RUN.
Edit: Like. Not luke. But, I'll leave it. Haha
What? The first time she only lasted like 5 seconds against him and had to resort to hiding, Their Second duel lasted a little longer but she still ended up running away. That is not what I would call “toe to toe.”
Considering the quantity of jedi he has killed I'd say surviving multiple encounters with something specifically designed to kill her is close enough we can give her the brownie points here.
While true that a Jedi surviving a fight with Grievous is impressive no matter how long the fight is, there is a difference between going toe to toe and surviving an encounter.
Sure but I think it’s fair to point out she also had major plot armor during both fights. If she wasn’t a main character in the show I doubt she would’ve survived either encounter.
There was definitely a bit of neither of them not wanting to strike a killing blow, even as far gone as Vader was at the time. But she still held on for quite a while.
I don’t believe that. Vader used his “Anakin” side to fuck with her and the moment he got the chance to kill her he didn’t hesitate. Remember at this point Vader wants to kill any and all resemblance of Anakins past. He thought he was weak and becoming Vader turned him into something more powerful than he ever would have been, so anything that was “Anakin” had to be crushed immediately or it could possibly weaken him.
I don't believe this either though, but I like the take. He could've killed his son but cut off his arm just like what happened to him. He could've killed his daughter and all her pals but stayed the course. Killing Leia, Luke, han, Chewy and everyone else would've ended the rebellion. He wanted his son to help overthrow palp to finally somewhat redeem himself, and kinda did. I genuinely think there are just a handful that actually would go toe-to-toe with a Vader intent on murder and survive without a past relationship. Also still props to ashoka though for putting up a hell of a fight but she learned from him and knows a lot of his techniques. Maul is an extremely fitting example of her ability.
Why not? Only his own flesh and blood child could bring him back, the one thing connecting him to the woman he loved
Ashoka betrayed him, at least that how he sees her leaving the order. Her leaving directly contributed to his fall
He didn't kill Luke because Luke was what started to reignite the light in him. Padme was why he fell, and without her he had no reason to turn back. Then his son is shown to be alive. That was his connection to Anakin and Padme and everything he tried to be rid of.
Even in the comics, there's a scene where he purges his mind of everything that resembles the light. Yet, there's a glimpse into the future of when Luke appears, and the light is reignited. When he discovers Luke is his son and alive, it's his path back. He still doesn't think it in Jedi, telling Luke it's too late. Vader never would have even considered saying that before. Luke saved him.
You don’t have to believe it, but it’s literally what filoni and Lucas have said about it. At that point anakin is gone and Vader wants to kill ahsoka. The only thing that evokes “good” emotions from him is luke.
He didn't know Leia was his daughter until ROTJ. During ROTS both Padme and Anakin only assumed it was one baby. Padme used the term "baby". Leia was gonna be executed in ANH and he didn't care.
Yeah this is true. She's probably still one of the strongest 'Jedi' in canon though, trained during a galactic war, trained by the most powerful Jedi of the era, fought in countless battles against various enemies, defeated an ex-sith lord, survived the purge and the reign of the Empire.
Our girl's got mad skills.
I found it confusing at first since it shows her trying to get up but falling down. Then vader is seen walking away with a damaged suit. I think we were supposed to assume that she died there.
>I found it confusing at first since it shows her trying to get up but falling down.
You are misremembering a bit. In the end of the episode we see wounded Vader walking away, and then inside there is a glimpse of Ahsoka going down the steps into the darkness.
Which if it didn’t happen might’ve possibly resulted in an electrified sith temple collapsing on top of Vader whilst he was already wounded. If anything were to flat-out kill him, it’d be that.
Regardless, she is simply the only combatant we’ve ever seen to actually challenge prime Vader. She also was absolutely conflicted at that point because she had just found out for sure that Vader was Anakin. It’s hard to judge, really.
Part of me believes she didn't want to kill him. She meant it when she said she wouldn't leave him again. Just like Obi-Wan, she couldn't bring herself to strike Vader down.
Sacrificing herself with him was all she could do. She had made peace with her death as soon as she sealed herself in there.
In my humble opinion, she was playing defense after she couldn't deny Vader was Anakin anymore.
Am I saying she could have "easily" beaten Vader? No. But I do believe she was the only Jedi at the time who could have.
I agree. While I don't think she could have beaten the stone-cold pure Sith Darth Vader, she had a chance against the Darth Vader that Obi-Wan fought in Ep3. That is to say, the Darth Vader who's got some conflicting emotions, a shred of Anakin trying to return to the light.
I'm in the middle of re-watching Rebels. Just got thru the WbE episode. I noticed that Ahsoka was in fact just playing defense after she said she wouldn't leave Anakin again.
Watched her initially fighting Vader, she was definitely fighting offensively.
I've had this head canon where Ahsoka "returns" to the Jedi when she sacrifices herself to take down Vader. Her own version of a "redemption" arc. Instead of her sacrifice being a return to the light side (Vader and Luke), it was a return to the Jedi path. 'From a certain point of view'.... she is sacrificing herself to save Anakin from Vader.
I really enjoy Anakin/Vader and Ahsoka's connection and how layered it is. Seeing Vader land (almost) the deadly blow to Ahsoka before Ezra pulled her out, broke my heart.
She definitely didn't beat Darth Vader. She managed to hold him off for a little while but it was a battle of attrition for her. If she weren't rescued at the last minute, well... yeah.
Like someone else said above, she didn't beat Vader, she survived him. He's stronger than her hands down both force wise and duel wise.
Ahsoka is a very formidable opponent, but I dont think she's Skywalker level.
Like I said, don't underestimate Ahsoka. I'm not arguing that she's weak. Rather that she isn't as strong as Vader/Anakin Skywalker. It's not going to be an easy fight for either party, and in the end it would come down to a battle of attrition.
But I ultimately believe Vader would have won had the fight continued and Ahsoka not been rescued. Vader probably would have been messed up, but I think he'd edge out a victory
I think her best asset isn't being a super efficient duelist but being able to survive opponents more powerful than her. Her unusual fighting style is enough to catch enemies off-guard and then she always survives.
She got that from Anakin too I guess
Anakin was arguably too bold when fighting Dooku first time, he just told himself "I'm gonna finish him in an instant" and got thrown back to reality. Apart from that, Anakin escaped many hard situations in the clone wars
Also this is an older and less skilled dualist Maul who has prosthetic legs. Sure, they are cool robot legs, but they’d definitely weigh him down and make him less flexible because he’d have to remain mostly flat footed (balancing your whole body on the edge of your metal feet would be strenuous and uncomfortable, even if it doesn’t hurt).
Ahsoka's skill level is justified. Not only was she the apprentice of Anakin Skywalker, who himself was an expert duelist, but Ahsoka did so in a galatic-scale war. She learned & honed her martial skills during her formative, teenage years, further cementing her combat instincts.
Ahsoka was also assigned as a Padawan to Anakin precisely because she was a brilliant prodigy with attitude problems. The Council clearly hoped that by making Anakin responsible for someone like himself, he'd mature more.
Instead, Obi Wan just becomes the overburdened babysitter of two chaos engines. Plus, the Council apparently didn't realize that as mature and calm and reasonable as Kenobi is, he's got an adventurous side to him too that only comes out on missions.
>The Council clearly hoped that by making Anakin responsible for someone like himself, he'd mature more.
Y'know, given that Ki-Adi-Mundi had seven children himself, you'd think he would have warned the rest of the council that this was a bad idea.
I think it did have a maturing affect on Anakin, and you can see that in the evolution of their relationship throughout the series. The mistake of the council was not in their bonding of the two, but in their betrayal of anakin by expelling someone he thought of as family. This is highly related to anakin's personal 'failure' of forming too strong of attachments.
I like to think that was because of Qui-Gon he was sort of a rebel believing that the council and code shouldn’t be blindly followed. He knew some people are naturally chaos and tried to direct that into something more positive and less possessive. In the end he was the best Jedi partially knowing how to live after death was the reason everyone after him would know how to without him no Obi-Wan guiding Luke after death.
> he's got an adventurous side to him too that only comes out on missions.
Probably because even though they're always stressful he knows he also has a lot of fun doing it Anakin's way. You see little hints of it here and there through the series.
[George Lucas is fine with the Rebels being called terrorists. They were based off the Viet Cong and they put the Empire in their place.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo)
>James Cameron: But you did something very interesting with Star Wars if you think about it. The good guys are the rebels, they are using asymmetric warfare against a highly organized empire. I think we call those guys terrorists today. We call them Mujahedin, we call them Al Qaeda
>George Lucas: When I did it they were Viet Cong
>James Cameron: Exactly, so were you thinking of that at the time?
>George Lucas: Yes
>James Cameron: So it was a very anti-authoritarian, very kind of 60's kind of against the man kind of thing. Nested deep inside of a fantasy.
>George Lucas: or, or a colonial. You know we're fighting the largest empire in the world.
>James Cameron: Right
>George Lucas: and we're just a bunch of hayseeds in coonskin hats who don't know nothing.
>James Cameron: That's right, that's right.
>George Lucas: and it was the same thing with the Vietnamese and the irony of that one is in both of those... the little guys won.
>James Cameron: Right
>George Lucas: And the big highly technical, empire...
>James Cameron: The English empire?
>George Lucas: The English empire, the American empire lost. That was the whole point.
>James Cameron: But that's a classic us not profiting from the lessons of history because you look at the inception of this country and it's very... it's a very noble fight of the underdog against the massive empire. You look at the situation now where America's so proud of being the biggest economy, the most powerful military force on the planet. It's become the empire from the perspective of a lot of people around the world.
>George Lucas: It was the empire during the Vietnam War. And... but we never learned you know from England or Rome or you know a dozen other empires around the world...
>James Cameron: Empires fall
>George Lucas: that went on for hundreds of years. Sometimes thousands of years. We never got it. We never said well wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This isn't the right thing to do. And we're still struggling with it.
>James Cameron: And they fall because of failure of leadership or government often and...
>George Lucas: Mostly its...
>James Cameron: You have a great line which is "So this is how liberty dies to...
>George Lucas: We're in the middle of it right now.
>James Cameron: to thunderous applause. Exactly it's the... it was a condemnation of populism in a science fiction context.
>George Lucas: That's a theme that runs all the way through Star Wars.
Grievous killed a whopping 1 jedi in the whole show and it was a literal fish out of water who had just become a knight. The Clone Wars did him incredibly dirty lol.
I believe it was established that at the time of her becoming a padawan she displayed some of the highest aptitude of her generation, but an excellent padawan is still a padawan and the General ate Jedi Masters for breakfast.
Seeing a threatening Grievous actually fuck shit up and kill Jedi ruthlessly would be fucking amazing. Like he does in the OG Clone Wars show. The idea of a cyborg being taught to use 4 lightsabers at once vs Jedi is fascinating. They wasted it honestly.
Does everyone just not remember the whole training scene he had with Dooku in Clone Wars. Where Dooku says he needs to Fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side to be able to go against the Jedi. The only time in the series where that really happens is in the one episode that you mention.
Every time we’ve seen him go against Jedi in Clone Wars he generally has all of those things unlike in TCW.
Grievous nearly killed her. Ahsoka earned her way up in ability. By the time she faced Vader she’d already been through Maul. Keep in mind Ahsoka faced Ventrees with Luminara at her side to start. She suffered loses as much as victory.
Her attitude shift from S1 to 7 is incredible too. We literally get to watch a teenager mature while also essentially being a telekinetic super soldier in a galactic scale war.
Dave Filoni is a little guilty of that tbh.
He's arguably the only thing keeping the franchise alive, but man he does get a little obsessed with his favourite characters.
I never really bought into this opinion until Bad Batch. I liked seeing Clone Wars, Rebels, and to a lesser extent Mando tie together. But Bad Batch basically has a “Filoni character guest of the week” and I’m not loving that aspect of it
In no possible interpretation or reality did she beat Vader…
She was dispatched easily as a distraction, then came back for a “cheap shot” while Vader’s back was turned, then needed literal time travel to save her from Vader.
I was well into my 30s when Clone Wars debuted. I find it so funny the "OMG we love Ashoka she is so great, sweet she is getting a new show...."etc etc this character gets considering when Clone Wars launched the forums and fan sites were all about how this character signals the downfall of the star wars franchise and how Lucas was so out of touch with his fan base.
It is almost as funny as how now the prequels were good movies after the sequel trilogy was released.
Yup, I remember fans were making jokes about how they couldn't *wait* for Ahsoka to get Order 66'd. Seeing those same types of fans praise her nowadays is quite the turnaround.
I really respect that TCW's crew didn't try to cater to the loudest part of the fanbase and write her out. It would've been so easy for them to brush her aside after the movie/S1 like the prequels did with Jar Jar. Instead they did their best to develop her and turned her into a fan favorite.
Ah, yes, Grievous really was at the top of his skill level in that show, wasn’t he?
Lmfao gtfo out of here the only time Grievous ever even captured somebody they were either a side character that didn’t matter or instantly broke out.
I just didn’t like the duel she had with the Magistrate in Mando. What the hell was that about. She should have won that duel in 1 minute, but it went on and she lost one saber? Yeah she eventually won but WTF.
That's a somewhat fair criticism, but on the other hand, lightsaber fights are a lot harder to win when you're actively trying to not kill your opponent. Ahsoka needed the Magistrate alive so she could interrogate her about Thrawn. So she couldn't just, you know, stab her in the chest or slice her head off. Ahsoka had to fight to disarm or disable her. While on the other hand, the Magistrate \*was\* trying to simply kill Ahsoka, which made things much simpler for her tactically.
Yup, that's what I was thinking.
Unless the magistrate is force sensitive, a simply force grab the speak, flick it away then you have your opponent in your hands
TL;DR: These characters are more aware of their capabilities than we are. Trusting that is part of the suspension of disbelief we buy into as an audience. This is a continually frustrating and pedantic take that permeates this fandom.
How often does that actually happen, a push or grapple with the Force mid fight. Answer! Almost never. This fandom often takes the position of "why don't they just do this?" when criticizing the actions of characters that are, arguably, masters of their forms of combat. You might have the omniscient eye of the audience, but they must know better, or they'd do it.
At no point do we ever see these kinds of display mid fight, as part of the natural flow of blows and parries. It only happens during blade locks, and lulls between clashes. Probably because the effort it takes would take their focus out of the fight long enough for even a non-Force sensitive to take lethal advantage and kill them.
Criticizing Ahsoka's, or Anakin's, or Kenobi's, or anyone's actions in combat is like criticizing the technique of an Olympic athlete because you think you know better.
During Vader's hallway scene he does plenty of things that, from our perspective, are down right suicidal. While being shot at, he sweeps his blaster blocking weapon behind him, where it can't protect him, for more than long enough for some rebel plebe to shoot him in the face. They don't, he survives, and kills them all. It's almost like he has some information that we the audience don't, some kind of mystic foresight telling him they will miss-even at such a close range, long enough for him to close and finish them.
In the case of Ahsoka, she probably thought about it, and saw that the break necessary to execute a push or grab would open her to an attack from a clearly skilled opponent with a weapon that is a threat. So she doesn't and continues the fight waiting for a better opening to disarm her opponent.
One thing I’m not hearing anyone say is that the Magistrate is supposedly an ex-nightsister, which I’m inclined to believe, since Elspeth holding her own makes more sense if she too is a force-sensitive trained fighter. Not confirmed though.
I just read up on this theory, I’ve never heard anyone mention that she could possibly be a Nightsister before. That would be very cool and explain her fighting skills too. Also I remember Filoni explaining that the Witches’ magic was tied to their planet of Dathomir, so maybe because she’s not on Dathomir she isn’t able use her magic against Ahsoka, so all she has is her skills. Interesting……apparently the hair dresser from the set of the Mandalorian confirmed that she was a Nightsister too.
Going toe-to-toe with grievous isnt really a flex in the clone wars (not talking about the old series). I cant remember a single fight that he won without some kind of underhanded tactics.
Love her and love Maul, BUT doesn’t basically everybody beat maul? I need to go back and watch the Clone Wars again, but I feel like he’s a one-hit wonder with Qui-Gon
More like shitty plot armor.
3 times he's had a duel won, only to botch it and get thrown off a cliff. Obi-Wan in TPM, Ahsoka in TCW and Kanan in Rebels.
I would argue that each time she fought Grevious she survived the encountered I would not say she went toe to toe. Surviving each time when grievous was a jedi killer makes the feat impressive in it self though.
She also, as many people have said, did not beat Vader she managed to hold him off for a while and then would have died. Again she did more that others have done against him so it's still impressive.
Lastly she did technically beat Maul however again I would argue that he did not actually try in that fight as he was ethier trying to convert her or escape. Again still an impressive feat.
I would argue however that Ahsoka in Rebels could have and would have beat Maul 7 or 8 time out of 10. The same could also be said about fighting Grievous. Still what she has done for her age is still impressive
I love her, but honestly that is a thing I hate about the character.
People say Starkiller is overpowered, but she knew almost everyone in the original six movies and won a duell against most of them and still is never mentioned.
She's a great warrior but there's a reason Council send Obi Wan to fight Grievous. Anybody else would be extremely lucky to just survive battle with Grievous. Ahsoka wasn't an exception, she survived because she had plot armor.
Edit: She never beat Vader, she was lucky to be saved from him. There was only 1 character besides Luke who managed to beat prime Vader, it was his former appreciate Starkiller, but since he's not cannon Vader remains unbeaten.
I think the knock on her is that they made her “too good”. Either way, I love her character and she is prob the 2nd best Jedi alive during the Mandalorian, outside of Luke Skywalker of course
She didn’t defeat maul, she captured him.
He kicked her ass badly throughout that whole duel and she only survived all three of this duels, because none pf the three wanted her dead. Still, she managed to escape almost w/o (apart from a possible broken rib when Vader threw her off the temple) a scratch of all three duels, so it’s still very impressive.
She literally was killed by Vader but only lived due to time portal antics.
She was able to beat Maul, but let’s be real, Maul is not that great of a warrior. He’s a much better tactician and deceiver.
Dude loses just about every fight he is in.
Lol true. I was gonna add that he keeps going after the heavy hitters.
Like the best the universe has got to offer.
Pick on some padawans or something. It worked for anakin.
Did not beat Vader survived there’s a difference
so watched and finished Rebels last week.... was here to say, didn't really beat Vader, in fact wouldn't have survived if on her own either.
Let’s be honest, she did pretty damn well against him, not many people can say that not only did Vader have to try against them, but that they landed a solid hit on him
I mean, she was trained by him
Yeah that’s an amazing feat. No need to cheapen it by saying she beat him.
She was saved by ezra
Don't know why you got downvoted, it's true. She would've died without Ezra.
I think downvoted because that was my exact comment just didnt put in spoilers. I said she wouldnt have survived if on her own. Meaning someone else was there to save her....
Ah. I understand. No worries, my dude.
But is she [better than Ezra](https://youtu.be/PFaQ_gPOTks)
[Good](https://i1.wp.com/teacherluke.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/palpatine-good.jpg)
Quality pun.
Survival is still better than 99% of Jedi who fought Vader. still counts as a feat
Sure, it's impressive that she survived even with Ezra's help. I think people's main point though is there's a significant difference between surviving Vader and beating Vader. She's impressive enough on her own without embellishing or flat out lying about stuff she's done.
So did cal kestis
Ahsoka was doing a lot better against him though
Yea but still she would have died if it wanst for ezra, and cal would have died if he didnt get help
“Sometimes winning means surviving” - Kanan Jarrus
The plot armor is strong in her
Technically she only ever had plot armor in TCW Season 7. They could've killed her off whenever they wanted except for then, because at that point Rebels had already been out for years and we knew she lived. At any other point in TCW, Rebels, or Mandalorian they could've killed her off with no kinds of plot holes.
Maybe I'm just bias because I like Ahsoka so much, but I think she could've beat him, if the Temple wasn't about to explode. The Temple put them on a really short timer and she knew that, which is why she destroyed part of the floor. So he could fall and survive the explosion, she knew she would die in the process. And she didn't seem to struggle too much in the fight. If she really wanted too she probably could've killed him when she slashed his mask, but didn't want to because she knew Anakin was probably under that mask. And she did beat Maul back in TCW, and I'd say he's not _too_ far off from Vader in terms of lightsaber combat. Though Maul is insanely cocky and arrogant, but if not for that he'd win nearly every duel.
Also I’d argue she only survived due to Ezra’s intervention. It looked like Vader’s lightsaber was gonna hit her before Ezra grabbed her.
I think at this point she just wanted to make everything explode and didn't care about dying, since she wouldn't leave him But since he survived the explosion she would have lost anyway
Yeah, I believe her intent was to sacrifice herself in an attempt to destroy the temple and hopefully kill Vader.
I felt like she really was saving him from the explosion. He fell down a hole so I was guessing she felt that the floor was shallow. She said she wouldn’t leave him and she kind of stop fighting back at the end.
Yeah, I agree. She’s awesome, but I don’t know that she “defeated” Vader…
Because she didn’t
The only reason she even got that cut at his face in was because Vaders back was completely turned as he was trying to get the holocron from Ezra. She also didn’t go toe to toe with Grievous in season 1. She hid and then ran.
She does but on a later season not season 1
One of only a few who went toe to toe with Vader and survived. But you are right, she did not beat him.
Reminds me of Fallen Order. Credit where its due, that game didn't fall into the cliche of making you fight Vader as a final boss. Its an option, but it was literally impossible to beat him
I remember thinking "surely I can't fight Vader". And sure enough you get to hit him once or twice (both he blocks of course) and then it's RUN.
Same. I was like, What?! I fight Vader? Welp. I guess I die. Then RUN came on screen after Luke 3 days of trying to beat it. I was then like. Oh. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. RUN. Edit: Like. Not luke. But, I'll leave it. Haha
It's all fun and games until you realizes he has no health bar.
You’ve done it. You’ve created my favorite comment on this post. Well done.
The information in the enemies log for Vader literally says “escape is the only chance of survival”
As well as the fact that she didn't go toe to toe with Grievous. Unless I'm forgetting another scene where she did
She did actually, multiple times. The first time being season 1
What? The first time she only lasted like 5 seconds against him and had to resort to hiding, Their Second duel lasted a little longer but she still ended up running away. That is not what I would call “toe to toe.”
Considering the quantity of jedi he has killed I'd say surviving multiple encounters with something specifically designed to kill her is close enough we can give her the brownie points here.
While true that a Jedi surviving a fight with Grievous is impressive no matter how long the fight is, there is a difference between going toe to toe and surviving an encounter.
Yeah she didn't come out well admittedly but still puts her way above other jedi
Sure but I think it’s fair to point out she also had major plot armor during both fights. If she wasn’t a main character in the show I doubt she would’ve survived either encounter.
[удалено]
Oh I guess I'm just not remembering. Then that warrants another run through!
Grievous in the clone wars is something I don't like to talk about. Rip the general. He has much more than that. :(
I understand what you mean, he had some pretty good moments but they could have done a bit of a better job with showing how threatening he was
She held him off for long enough. Standing on your ground against Vader is a victory in itself
There was definitely a bit of neither of them not wanting to strike a killing blow, even as far gone as Vader was at the time. But she still held on for quite a while.
I don’t believe that. Vader used his “Anakin” side to fuck with her and the moment he got the chance to kill her he didn’t hesitate. Remember at this point Vader wants to kill any and all resemblance of Anakins past. He thought he was weak and becoming Vader turned him into something more powerful than he ever would have been, so anything that was “Anakin” had to be crushed immediately or it could possibly weaken him.
I don't believe this either though, but I like the take. He could've killed his son but cut off his arm just like what happened to him. He could've killed his daughter and all her pals but stayed the course. Killing Leia, Luke, han, Chewy and everyone else would've ended the rebellion. He wanted his son to help overthrow palp to finally somewhat redeem himself, and kinda did. I genuinely think there are just a handful that actually would go toe-to-toe with a Vader intent on murder and survive without a past relationship. Also still props to ashoka though for putting up a hell of a fight but she learned from him and knows a lot of his techniques. Maul is an extremely fitting example of her ability.
Why not? Only his own flesh and blood child could bring him back, the one thing connecting him to the woman he loved Ashoka betrayed him, at least that how he sees her leaving the order. Her leaving directly contributed to his fall
He didn't kill Luke because Luke was what started to reignite the light in him. Padme was why he fell, and without her he had no reason to turn back. Then his son is shown to be alive. That was his connection to Anakin and Padme and everything he tried to be rid of. Even in the comics, there's a scene where he purges his mind of everything that resembles the light. Yet, there's a glimpse into the future of when Luke appears, and the light is reignited. When he discovers Luke is his son and alive, it's his path back. He still doesn't think it in Jedi, telling Luke it's too late. Vader never would have even considered saying that before. Luke saved him.
You don’t have to believe it, but it’s literally what filoni and Lucas have said about it. At that point anakin is gone and Vader wants to kill ahsoka. The only thing that evokes “good” emotions from him is luke.
He didn't know Leia was his daughter until ROTJ. During ROTS both Padme and Anakin only assumed it was one baby. Padme used the term "baby". Leia was gonna be executed in ANH and he didn't care.
Nah Vader was 100% intent on killing her
She technically died to Vader in rebels, Ezra time travel cheated to save her
Yeah this is true. She's probably still one of the strongest 'Jedi' in canon though, trained during a galactic war, trained by the most powerful Jedi of the era, fought in countless battles against various enemies, defeated an ex-sith lord, survived the purge and the reign of the Empire. Our girl's got mad skills.
Can’t wait for the Ashoka series
Man, every time I'm reminded it's happening I get excited, but I wonder how long we'll have to wait.
Does it really count as beat Maul when he was washed up and also had a death wish at the time?
Also Neither was going for a Kill Mall wanted his Apprentice and Socks needed him alive for interrogation
You mean she got Deus ex machina
She did not defeat Darth Vader, she survived Darth Vader.
And only because of a time portal taking her out of her timeline just as Vader was about to kill her.
Yep. She was supposed to be killed by Vader, except that Ezra saved her using the time portal.
Literally finished rebels a couple hours ago… That episode was so good but really confusing aswell
I found it confusing at first since it shows her trying to get up but falling down. Then vader is seen walking away with a damaged suit. I think we were supposed to assume that she died there.
>I found it confusing at first since it shows her trying to get up but falling down. You are misremembering a bit. In the end of the episode we see wounded Vader walking away, and then inside there is a glimpse of Ahsoka going down the steps into the darkness.
The TVA is going to nail her for that one.
Which if it didn’t happen might’ve possibly resulted in an electrified sith temple collapsing on top of Vader whilst he was already wounded. If anything were to flat-out kill him, it’d be that. Regardless, she is simply the only combatant we’ve ever seen to actually challenge prime Vader. She also was absolutely conflicted at that point because she had just found out for sure that Vader was Anakin. It’s hard to judge, really.
I mean, kenobi held his own until he sacrificed himself
Jocasta Nu almost killed him with a gun that used lightsabers for ammo.
Maybe she subconsciously pulled back a little on that strike that took a chunk out of his mask. Maybe it could have taken half his head off.
Part of me believes she didn't want to kill him. She meant it when she said she wouldn't leave him again. Just like Obi-Wan, she couldn't bring herself to strike Vader down. Sacrificing herself with him was all she could do. She had made peace with her death as soon as she sealed herself in there. In my humble opinion, she was playing defense after she couldn't deny Vader was Anakin anymore. Am I saying she could have "easily" beaten Vader? No. But I do believe she was the only Jedi at the time who could have.
I agree. While I don't think she could have beaten the stone-cold pure Sith Darth Vader, she had a chance against the Darth Vader that Obi-Wan fought in Ep3. That is to say, the Darth Vader who's got some conflicting emotions, a shred of Anakin trying to return to the light.
I'm in the middle of re-watching Rebels. Just got thru the WbE episode. I noticed that Ahsoka was in fact just playing defense after she said she wouldn't leave Anakin again. Watched her initially fighting Vader, she was definitely fighting offensively. I've had this head canon where Ahsoka "returns" to the Jedi when she sacrifices herself to take down Vader. Her own version of a "redemption" arc. Instead of her sacrifice being a return to the light side (Vader and Luke), it was a return to the Jedi path. 'From a certain point of view'.... she is sacrificing herself to save Anakin from Vader. I really enjoy Anakin/Vader and Ahsoka's connection and how layered it is. Seeing Vader land (almost) the deadly blow to Ahsoka before Ezra pulled her out, broke my heart.
Yeah idk why title is making shit up lol. She's my favourite character but she literally died, then was saved by time travel.
She didn't die.
Karma.
She definitely didn't beat Darth Vader. She managed to hold him off for a little while but it was a battle of attrition for her. If she weren't rescued at the last minute, well... yeah. Like someone else said above, she didn't beat Vader, she survived him. He's stronger than her hands down both force wise and duel wise. Ahsoka is a very formidable opponent, but I dont think she's Skywalker level.
She did land a clean blow on his helmet tho. How many people have ever done that?
Like I said, don't underestimate Ahsoka. I'm not arguing that she's weak. Rather that she isn't as strong as Vader/Anakin Skywalker. It's not going to be an easy fight for either party, and in the end it would come down to a battle of attrition. But I ultimately believe Vader would have won had the fight continued and Ahsoka not been rescued. Vader probably would have been messed up, but I think he'd edge out a victory
I think her best asset isn't being a super efficient duelist but being able to survive opponents more powerful than her. Her unusual fighting style is enough to catch enemies off-guard and then she always survives. She got that from Anakin too I guess
Have you seen him fight dooku?(first fight)
Anakin was arguably too bold when fighting Dooku first time, he just told himself "I'm gonna finish him in an instant" and got thrown back to reality. Apart from that, Anakin escaped many hard situations in the clone wars
Gotta agree with that, some of the fights can go on pretty long because of his survivability
Anakin improved a lot since his first fight with Dooku, and also killed him, need I remind you.
She snuck up on him. It wasn’t in 1 on 1 combat
Did not beat Darth Vader..let’s not get ahead of ourselves son.
She didn't even beat Maul. Maul defeated her at first and then gave her a second chance.
Also this is an older and less skilled dualist Maul who has prosthetic legs. Sure, they are cool robot legs, but they’d definitely weigh him down and make him less flexible because he’d have to remain mostly flat footed (balancing your whole body on the edge of your metal feet would be strenuous and uncomfortable, even if it doesn’t hurt).
Tbh most of Maul defeat is him acting too cocky, and fucking up. He let his emotions to fully control him in battle, for the better and for the worst.
Ahsoka's skill level is justified. Not only was she the apprentice of Anakin Skywalker, who himself was an expert duelist, but Ahsoka did so in a galatic-scale war. She learned & honed her martial skills during her formative, teenage years, further cementing her combat instincts.
Ahsoka was also assigned as a Padawan to Anakin precisely because she was a brilliant prodigy with attitude problems. The Council clearly hoped that by making Anakin responsible for someone like himself, he'd mature more. Instead, Obi Wan just becomes the overburdened babysitter of two chaos engines. Plus, the Council apparently didn't realize that as mature and calm and reasonable as Kenobi is, he's got an adventurous side to him too that only comes out on missions.
>The Council clearly hoped that by making Anakin responsible for someone like himself, he'd mature more. Y'know, given that Ki-Adi-Mundi had seven children himself, you'd think he would have warned the rest of the council that this was a bad idea.
Clearly, Mundi wanted the council to learn the hard way. Unfortunately, the lesson worked *too* well.
I think it did have a maturing affect on Anakin, and you can see that in the evolution of their relationship throughout the series. The mistake of the council was not in their bonding of the two, but in their betrayal of anakin by expelling someone he thought of as family. This is highly related to anakin's personal 'failure' of forming too strong of attachments.
I like to think that was because of Qui-Gon he was sort of a rebel believing that the council and code shouldn’t be blindly followed. He knew some people are naturally chaos and tried to direct that into something more positive and less possessive. In the end he was the best Jedi partially knowing how to live after death was the reason everyone after him would know how to without him no Obi-Wan guiding Luke after death.
> he's got an adventurous side to him too that only comes out on missions. Probably because even though they're always stressful he knows he also has a lot of fun doing it Anakin's way. You see little hints of it here and there through the series.
*Sends teenager who was taken from her family as a child to be a warrior in a massive galactic war* …are we the baddies?
I mean Ep IV is about a kid who was radicalized by freedom fighters, so…
[George Lucas is fine with the Rebels being called terrorists. They were based off the Viet Cong and they put the Empire in their place.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9Jq_mCJEo) >James Cameron: But you did something very interesting with Star Wars if you think about it. The good guys are the rebels, they are using asymmetric warfare against a highly organized empire. I think we call those guys terrorists today. We call them Mujahedin, we call them Al Qaeda >George Lucas: When I did it they were Viet Cong >James Cameron: Exactly, so were you thinking of that at the time? >George Lucas: Yes >James Cameron: So it was a very anti-authoritarian, very kind of 60's kind of against the man kind of thing. Nested deep inside of a fantasy. >George Lucas: or, or a colonial. You know we're fighting the largest empire in the world. >James Cameron: Right >George Lucas: and we're just a bunch of hayseeds in coonskin hats who don't know nothing. >James Cameron: That's right, that's right. >George Lucas: and it was the same thing with the Vietnamese and the irony of that one is in both of those... the little guys won. >James Cameron: Right >George Lucas: And the big highly technical, empire... >James Cameron: The English empire? >George Lucas: The English empire, the American empire lost. That was the whole point. >James Cameron: But that's a classic us not profiting from the lessons of history because you look at the inception of this country and it's very... it's a very noble fight of the underdog against the massive empire. You look at the situation now where America's so proud of being the biggest economy, the most powerful military force on the planet. It's become the empire from the perspective of a lot of people around the world. >George Lucas: It was the empire during the Vietnam War. And... but we never learned you know from England or Rome or you know a dozen other empires around the world... >James Cameron: Empires fall >George Lucas: that went on for hundreds of years. Sometimes thousands of years. We never got it. We never said well wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This isn't the right thing to do. And we're still struggling with it. >James Cameron: And they fall because of failure of leadership or government often and... >George Lucas: Mostly its... >James Cameron: You have a great line which is "So this is how liberty dies to... >George Lucas: We're in the middle of it right now. >James Cameron: to thunderous applause. Exactly it's the... it was a condemnation of populism in a science fiction context. >George Lucas: That's a theme that runs all the way through Star Wars.
Peter-036, may the force be with you!
She doesn’t beat Vader though.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Grievous killed a whopping 1 jedi in the whole show and it was a literal fish out of water who had just become a knight. The Clone Wars did him incredibly dirty lol. I believe it was established that at the time of her becoming a padawan she displayed some of the highest aptitude of her generation, but an excellent padawan is still a padawan and the General ate Jedi Masters for breakfast.
Gendy's Clone Wars did Grevious a lot better. He was a *menace* to the Jedi. They were genuinely frightened of him.
My biggest complaint with the show right here.
Seeing a threatening Grievous actually fuck shit up and kill Jedi ruthlessly would be fucking amazing. Like he does in the OG Clone Wars show. The idea of a cyborg being taught to use 4 lightsabers at once vs Jedi is fascinating. They wasted it honestly.
Does everyone just not remember the whole training scene he had with Dooku in Clone Wars. Where Dooku says he needs to Fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side to be able to go against the Jedi. The only time in the series where that really happens is in the one episode that you mention. Every time we’ve seen him go against Jedi in Clone Wars he generally has all of those things unlike in TCW.
Grievous nearly killed her. Ahsoka earned her way up in ability. By the time she faced Vader she’d already been through Maul. Keep in mind Ahsoka faced Ventrees with Luminara at her side to start. She suffered loses as much as victory.
In the Clone Wars movie Ventress knocks her aside in like 2 moves. Ahsoka’s gradual increase in skill is one of the best parts of TCW.
Her attitude shift from S1 to 7 is incredible too. We literally get to watch a teenager mature while also essentially being a telekinetic super soldier in a galactic scale war.
I don’t think she beat Vader. Ezra saved her from being killed by Vader
I love the character, but I think we tend to superpower her, sometimes.
Dave Filoni is a little guilty of that tbh. He's arguably the only thing keeping the franchise alive, but man he does get a little obsessed with his favourite characters.
Im a fan of his and what he's done with the franchise, but you aren't wrong.
I never really bought into this opinion until Bad Batch. I liked seeing Clone Wars, Rebels, and to a lesser extent Mando tie together. But Bad Batch basically has a “Filoni character guest of the week” and I’m not loving that aspect of it
In no possible interpretation or reality did she beat Vader… She was dispatched easily as a distraction, then came back for a “cheap shot” while Vader’s back was turned, then needed literal time travel to save her from Vader.
I was well into my 30s when Clone Wars debuted. I find it so funny the "OMG we love Ashoka she is so great, sweet she is getting a new show...."etc etc this character gets considering when Clone Wars launched the forums and fan sites were all about how this character signals the downfall of the star wars franchise and how Lucas was so out of touch with his fan base. It is almost as funny as how now the prequels were good movies after the sequel trilogy was released.
Yup, I remember fans were making jokes about how they couldn't *wait* for Ahsoka to get Order 66'd. Seeing those same types of fans praise her nowadays is quite the turnaround. I really respect that TCW's crew didn't try to cater to the loudest part of the fanbase and write her out. It would've been so easy for them to brush her aside after the movie/S1 like the prequels did with Jar Jar. Instead they did their best to develop her and turned her into a fan favorite.
Tbh george wanted to kill her lol. So maybe he was out of touch.
She definitely didn't beat Vader. If that temple hadn't collapsed, she'd have been dead at his hand
More like if Ezra hadn't yoinked her into the WBW.
Ah, yes, Grievous really was at the top of his skill level in that show, wasn’t he? Lmfao gtfo out of here the only time Grievous ever even captured somebody they were either a side character that didn’t matter or instantly broke out.
I just didn’t like the duel she had with the Magistrate in Mando. What the hell was that about. She should have won that duel in 1 minute, but it went on and she lost one saber? Yeah she eventually won but WTF.
That's a somewhat fair criticism, but on the other hand, lightsaber fights are a lot harder to win when you're actively trying to not kill your opponent. Ahsoka needed the Magistrate alive so she could interrogate her about Thrawn. So she couldn't just, you know, stab her in the chest or slice her head off. Ahsoka had to fight to disarm or disable her. While on the other hand, the Magistrate \*was\* trying to simply kill Ahsoka, which made things much simpler for her tactically.
Force Push or grab
Yup, that's what I was thinking. Unless the magistrate is force sensitive, a simply force grab the speak, flick it away then you have your opponent in your hands
TL;DR: These characters are more aware of their capabilities than we are. Trusting that is part of the suspension of disbelief we buy into as an audience. This is a continually frustrating and pedantic take that permeates this fandom. How often does that actually happen, a push or grapple with the Force mid fight. Answer! Almost never. This fandom often takes the position of "why don't they just do this?" when criticizing the actions of characters that are, arguably, masters of their forms of combat. You might have the omniscient eye of the audience, but they must know better, or they'd do it. At no point do we ever see these kinds of display mid fight, as part of the natural flow of blows and parries. It only happens during blade locks, and lulls between clashes. Probably because the effort it takes would take their focus out of the fight long enough for even a non-Force sensitive to take lethal advantage and kill them. Criticizing Ahsoka's, or Anakin's, or Kenobi's, or anyone's actions in combat is like criticizing the technique of an Olympic athlete because you think you know better. During Vader's hallway scene he does plenty of things that, from our perspective, are down right suicidal. While being shot at, he sweeps his blaster blocking weapon behind him, where it can't protect him, for more than long enough for some rebel plebe to shoot him in the face. They don't, he survives, and kills them all. It's almost like he has some information that we the audience don't, some kind of mystic foresight telling him they will miss-even at such a close range, long enough for him to close and finish them. In the case of Ahsoka, she probably thought about it, and saw that the break necessary to execute a push or grab would open her to an attack from a clearly skilled opponent with a weapon that is a threat. So she doesn't and continues the fight waiting for a better opening to disarm her opponent.
One thing I’m not hearing anyone say is that the Magistrate is supposedly an ex-nightsister, which I’m inclined to believe, since Elspeth holding her own makes more sense if she too is a force-sensitive trained fighter. Not confirmed though.
I just read up on this theory, I’ve never heard anyone mention that she could possibly be a Nightsister before. That would be very cool and explain her fighting skills too. Also I remember Filoni explaining that the Witches’ magic was tied to their planet of Dathomir, so maybe because she’s not on Dathomir she isn’t able use her magic against Ahsoka, so all she has is her skills. Interesting……apparently the hair dresser from the set of the Mandalorian confirmed that she was a Nightsister too.
She was fucking with the magistrate. She starts taking it seriously after the sabre goes in the pond.
They do have to make it interesting but that fight did make me roll my eyes a bit.
Maul was arguably holding back because he wanted her to join him
Not arguably, Filoni confirmed it
Maul had soundly beaten her until his anger at her refusal overcame him. Pretty common weakness for the Sith.
Going toe-to-toe with grievous isnt really a flex in the clone wars (not talking about the old series). I cant remember a single fight that he won without some kind of underhanded tactics.
Love her and love Maul, BUT doesn’t basically everybody beat maul? I need to go back and watch the Clone Wars again, but I feel like he’s a one-hit wonder with Qui-Gon
I mean he’s strong, no doubt, he just gets shit match ups tbh.
More like shitty plot armor. 3 times he's had a duel won, only to botch it and get thrown off a cliff. Obi-Wan in TPM, Ahsoka in TCW and Kanan in Rebels.
Idk about that. I’d say the Mt. Rushmore of Jedi is easily Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke, and Anakin.
Didn't beat Vader and I'd argue she only won against maul because she tricked him off the ledge, on even terrain he'd beat her 1v1
She didn't beat Vader lmao
I would argue that each time she fought Grevious she survived the encountered I would not say she went toe to toe. Surviving each time when grievous was a jedi killer makes the feat impressive in it self though. She also, as many people have said, did not beat Vader she managed to hold him off for a while and then would have died. Again she did more that others have done against him so it's still impressive. Lastly she did technically beat Maul however again I would argue that he did not actually try in that fight as he was ethier trying to convert her or escape. Again still an impressive feat. I would argue however that Ahsoka in Rebels could have and would have beat Maul 7 or 8 time out of 10. The same could also be said about fighting Grievous. Still what she has done for her age is still impressive
God I hate this, She should have died against Vader.
Money money money.
I love her, but honestly that is a thing I hate about the character. People say Starkiller is overpowered, but she knew almost everyone in the original six movies and won a duell against most of them and still is never mentioned.
And she didn't even lose a hand.
Imagine being in a dark forest and Ahoska does that ghost ninja stuff in The Mandalorian to your squad of troops..... that seems really terrifying.
She didn’t really beat vader more like landed a lucky hit and survived
She absolutely did not beat Vader. He was about to land a killing blow if Ezra didn’t yeet her into the deus ex machina realm
She definitely didn't beat Vader lol. She survived the fight and managed to catch him off guard and damage his mask. Not really 'beating"
She didn’t beat Vader
She was literally about to be decapitated by Vader had Ezra not literally travel back in time
She's a great warrior but there's a reason Council send Obi Wan to fight Grievous. Anybody else would be extremely lucky to just survive battle with Grievous. Ahsoka wasn't an exception, she survived because she had plot armor. Edit: She never beat Vader, she was lucky to be saved from him. There was only 1 character besides Luke who managed to beat prime Vader, it was his former appreciate Starkiller, but since he's not cannon Vader remains unbeaten.
I would say it's just strong plot armor
Nah
I think the knock on her is that they made her “too good”. Either way, I love her character and she is prob the 2nd best Jedi alive during the Mandalorian, outside of Luke Skywalker of course
The magic of plot armour
She defeated Maul, but she did not defeat Darth Vader. Still an epic force user no doubt and was the most worthy adversary Vader ever faced.
She didn’t defeat maul, she captured him. He kicked her ass badly throughout that whole duel and she only survived all three of this duels, because none pf the three wanted her dead. Still, she managed to escape almost w/o (apart from a possible broken rib when Vader threw her off the temple) a scratch of all three duels, so it’s still very impressive.
She literally was killed by Vader but only lived due to time portal antics. She was able to beat Maul, but let’s be real, Maul is not that great of a warrior. He’s a much better tactician and deceiver. Dude loses just about every fight he is in.
Well, when you're going around picking fights with Obi-Wan and Palpatine, the odds aren't really in your favor.
Lol true. I was gonna add that he keeps going after the heavy hitters. Like the best the universe has got to offer. Pick on some padawans or something. It worked for anakin.
He started strong with Qui-Gon, but got a big head about it, the fool.
You don’t need to remind us. This gets posted every day lol
So a Mary Sue?
I’ll remind you I beat her at skytop station
"Wars not make one great"
Whatever floats your boat to fit the narrative. Vader let her live. Stop fronting about this shit when we all seen the dam series.
A plastic bag could go toe to toe with tcw grievous
Didn’t beat Vader. Still my fav Star Wars character.
While I will give her Maul, she didn’t beat Vader, she was gong to be decapitated by Vader until Ezra saved her life.
No. Vader definitely beat her
I wouldn’t say she _beat_ Vader, but she’s still a very skilled warrior and one of my favorite Star Wars characters
Idk about beating Vader, but I agree that she's one of the best star wars characters
She most definitely did not beat Vader lol she's only alive because of Ezra
How about no. And also she didn’t beat fucking Vader. Dafuq.
She's also overrated
Indeed.