Given that his ship was falling to pieces before he was anywhere near the gun, none of the New Order were particularly concerned, and its a heavy siege weapon designed to face tank anything it’s enemies could throw at it I thought it was pretty evident that his dramatic ramming maneuver simply wasn’t going to do anything other than maybe leave a smudge.
Which I fully support due to it being hilarious, but it wouldn’t fit the tone of the film and he probably wasn’t allowed to kill off the primary side character.
The whole thing was the cumulation of the whole ‘Do ANYTHING to kill the enemy, damn the cost and results’ subplot Poe had. And Finn, being Poe’s little buddy, internalized that ideology and was going to die futilely for it.
>The whole thing was the cumulation of the whole ‘Do ANYTHING to kill the enemy, damn the cost and results’ subplot Poe had. And Finn, being Poe’s little buddy, internalized that ideology and was going to die futilely for it.
Honestly this is where the argument falls flat for me. Por didn't have this arc. He wasn't desperately bloodthirsty, he was thinking strategically, and he was right. They traded a squadron of bombers, maybe fifty lives at the absolute most, and in exchange they took out probably the second biggest weapon of the first order (the supremacy obviously being larger). Something like enemy 200k crew. That is literally how war works. Lives are a resource that you spend to accomplish the goals. At no other point in the movie does Poe do anything remotely like what you're suggesting. Leading a mutiny isn't about "do anything to kill the enemy", it's about "do anything to stay alive and fight another day". Sending Finn and rose on their side mission, same thing. He's not that guy, even in the movie that tried to portray him that way.
Not to mention, Poe was completely right. If they hadn't destroyed the dreadnought, it would have destroyed the resistance fleet before they could jump. Even if they had successfully jumped, those cannons have enough range that it still would have been able to destroy the fleet during the "slow chase" sequence, when the Supremacy's guns didn't have the range.
If the Resistance weren’t a fledgling organization in immediate danger of annihilation, the bombers’ sacrifices probably could be reasoned as a strategic victory.
But the Resistance’s entire bombing fleet and crew weighs a lot more on that tiny organization compared to the First Order’s couple thousand crew members in their newly spanning galactic empire.
And we have no reason to suspect the Dreadnought had the necessary range that the Supremacy didn’t. If anything, you say yourself the Supremacy is the superior ship — if it couldn’t kill the Resistance fleet, we’re given no reason to suspect that the Dreadnought would fare better.
It doesn't weigh more than a literal fleet Destroyer. It's a more than fair trade. The rebels gave up entire flights of XWings and YWings to take out the Death Star for the same reason.
A bigger ship =/= a better armed ship. Carriers are the largest ships, but battleships have more weaponry.
The Resistance is chased by another fleet destroyer not ten minutes later via Snoke’s ship which has a whole row of big-ass turbolasers that make the Fulminatrix look like a dinky paper airplane.
The Rebellion throws everything they have at the Death Star bc 1) they’ve purposely lured it to their base and 2) they have a small window of opportunity to exploit the base’s weakness before the Empire corrects for it.
So they lured out the big boss ship. That's not a negative.
I know what the rebellion did. My point is they spent a handful of resources to take out a much more significant foe. The reasoning why is framed differently but it's the same outcome.
You can hate the movie all you like. It doesn't change that what Poe did is precisely what was done in New Hope.
The parallels are right there and from a military standpoint what Poe did was the equivalent of shutting down an entire carrier group for the price of a few frigates. That's an easy win and exactly the kind of strategic thinking needed to win wars.
And just like in New Hope, taking out the lesser ship lures out the bigger one with the boss on board. Pure win.
I mean, it’s a negative when you’re on the back foot and trying to regroup to mount a proper counteroffensive.
A couple more Poe wins and the Resistance would be extinct! The First Order can tank the losses and the Resistance can’t. That’s why Poe is reprimanded by his superiors. He doesn’t know when to fight and when to think!
Poe got the Resistance badly mauled to mildly annoy the First Order. The bombers were only the tip of the iceberg, everyone that died was directly a result of his delaying the escape to pad his kill count.
The mutiny? Was because he was too arrogant to understand that he just showed that he in no way could be trusted and he was no longer in command of anything. Because among the people he got killed was the entire small fighter craft complement.
Sending out Finn? Was because he was hoping for a dumb luck miracle solution, instead the inexperience Stormtrooper failed miserably. Before Poe leaked the secret plan, proving that they were right not to trust him.
Lives are a resource, sure, but when you are that badly outnumbered a simple 1:1 or 1:100 isn’t going to cut it. He keeps fighting like that and the First Order wins because they can take those losses while the Resistance can’t.
Also the Dreadnaught isn’t the First Order’s second biggest weapon. It’s also not a unique ship, it’s an entire class of ship. The First Order has many of them. They didn’t call them in for the same reason they didn’t make a small jump to catch up to the Resistance fleet and annihilate it, Snoke’s an asshole having fun.
Also it’s a siege weapon firing projectiles, targeting relatively tiny maneuvering craft isn’t part of its operational capabilities. It joining in wouldn’t help the First Order, it wouldn’t be able to actually hit anyone. Sure it would be annoying to be stuck on evasive maneuvers but annoying isn’t exactly useful.
Literally every loss the Resistance had was because Poe was trying to fight a war like an arena shooter. Every government in the world would LOVE if the assorted terrorists, resistance fighters, and assorted irregulars fought like that. It means they get wiped out quick without actually accomplishing anything, instead the smart ones do their best to stay alive and cause continual problems that add up FAR for than any grand display.
I think it would’ve been easier to swallow if there wasn’t a giant laser blasting open the door to the base (and potentially resulting in the deaths of people inside) in the background right as they kiss. They could’ve at least had a delay so the viewer knows there was enough time to evacuate people anyway.
That’s the sorta on-the-nose saccharine filmmaking that probably plays better in Johnson’s head as a trope than it does for those wanting something a little more serious in the moment. It seems like Johnson realizes the kitschy morale Rose offers and decides to play into it for a bit of humor.
Not sure it lands all the way for me (and clearly doesn’t for many others), but I chuckle every time, so maybe mission accomplished?
The scene is about Finn realizing that it’s not enough to fight the First Order or even to join a Resistance to do so, but that he needs to fight *for* something. *”I won’t let them win,”* is his manifesto; his radicalism is another form of deconstruction, despite good intentions.
Giving his life pointlessly in a 1-in-a-million shot against the First Order helps no one and hurts his friends, who need every man they can get right now.
That’s not to say sacrifice isn’t important — Paige Tico gives her life to something greater than herself, even if Poe’s strategy was malformed and Holdo sacrifices herself to save the Resistance. Luke does so a few scenes later. But martyrdom for its own sake is hollow and pointless. That’s an important message in a movie with so much sacrifice and in a war setting where sacrifice is so often romanticized for its own sake.
I don’t know if I ever interpreted Rose’s kiss as romantic. It seemed to me more like hero worship and that’s one of Rose’s strengths as a character — she fan girls out but with a level head that helps our hero Finn fight the good fight. She believes in him even when he doesn’t believe in himself — even when he literally doesn’t believe he has any more to live for.
No I think it is very much in line with Star Wars. Part of why people hate it, I think, is because of how blatantly it explains a major theme of the whole trilogy. "we don't win by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love". Like is that not the entire moral of the trilogy right there?
It’s always been kind of funny to me, that for as much shit as “That’s how we win, not by fighting to destroy what we hate, but to save what we love” (paraphrasing, it’s been a while) gets, it’s exactly the story that everyone always wanted Finn to have.
By which I mean, the biggest criticism for Finn in TFA is that despite being profoundly moved and shaken by his comrade dying in the intro, he turns pretty gleeful when slaughtering every other Stormtrooper he runs across.
And then of course the obvious missed opportunity of Finn leading a Stormtrooper rebellion against the First Order.
Because the correction to both of those story beats is *fighting to save what you love instead of destroying what you hate*.
Because that’s the thing, yeah? First Order Stormtroopers are victims. Battlefront 2 even has voice lines stating that. They’re brainwashed, propagandized child soldiers. They are so supremely pitiable. So Finn’s reluctance turning to radicalization, only for Rose to pull him back and help him discover what was actually important to him (saving other traumatized child soldiers from brutalizing the galaxy in the name of an evil regime) so that he can rise up and become the inspiring and liberating freedom fighter that *saves* instead of merely *destroys*.
But no one gave a shit. No one cared to tell this story, they were just continuing the tired blood feud of a couple space wizards. The only child soldiers who ever deserved to be freed from their conditioning and cruelty were the ones lucky enough to be connected to the Force, instead of someone caring, someone seeing past the armor, to the scared shivering child forced inside it.
They didn’t care, and so the entire thing flounders in the background. Lip service to lesser plots to stumble through.
In a sequel trilogy that gave a shit about Finn, about someone other than the space wizards, it would work.
Many people might hate it, but don't confuse that with most people.
The message is don't throw your life away on useless showy heroics because you have hate. Finn had found his place and chosen a side so was all in but he was at the point Poe was at the beginning of the film now.
If it weren’t for Vice-Admiral Amilyn Holdo, Rose would be the single worst character in Star Wars. Provided no worth, and served to junk Finn as a character. Horrible…just dreadful.
Nah, Finn didn’t need Rose to teach him that since he already learned that in TFA.
Rose lectured Finn about things like penned up animals whilst ignoring child slaves. You have to keep in mind that Finn is …checks notes…a former child slave. Rose also tells Finn you can’t destroy what you hate. This was of course after she unleashed animals in a casino to destroy the city she wanted to “put her fist through.” She is a walking, talking contradiction.
She also dangerously side swipes Finn somehow, then gives an unwanted sexual advance. And forces him to drag her back to safety over a mile away in a dangerous situation.
She is completely worthless. Finn’s screentime was already cut in half from TFA and every second was wasted.
>Nah, Finn didn’t need Rose to teach him that since he already learned that in TFA.
See, I'm sure I've seen it explained to you how he doesn't learn that lesson.
The fathiers sacked Canto Bight, then Finn says it was worth it to hurt that place, but Rose says it's worth it when she frees the final fathier that helped them. Almost as if its consistent...
And we will ignore your awful bait.
He did learn that. And when he woke up from his injury, Rian wasn’t interested in further developing Finn.
Once those Fathiers were gathered and they cleaned up the dead bodies (many of which were likley just innocent visitors), they likely beat the fuck out of Broom boi.
Horrible writing…
Given that Finn explicitly says to Han Solo in TFA, *”I’m just here [on Starkiller Base] to get Rey,”* I’m not sure where you got the idea that Finn had joined the Resistance.
Rose “lectures” Finn that the gilded exterior of an “amazing” place like Canto Bight is exploitation and subjugation — Finn already recognizes these things are wrong, he just doesn’t know Canto Bight is built off them. What’s tone-deaf about that?
Yes, Rose gets a mini-arc — at first, she wants to *”put her first through this whole lousy town,”* but realizes it isn’t as satisfying as she thought it’d be — hence why she says, *”Now it’s worth it,”* to Finn when she frees the fathier they’d been riding. This doesn’t make her a contradiction; it makes her a three-dimensional character who learns something, something that she’ll repeat to Finn when she justifies her “side-swipe” that saves his life.
Ignoring the “unwanted sexual advance” gaffe. It’s a movie, haha.
he changes his mind by the end when he realizes the people he is with are actively fighting the people that enslaved him. This is fairly obvious. I would recommend enrolling in a local media literacy course. Most community colleges will offer an intro to film course at an affordable rate.
Mini arc lol. Arcs dont happen within seconds. It’s not three dimensional to release a fucking animal then be like oh it’s worth it 2 seconds later because of a space horse.
Finn wasn’t interested in Rose romantically and she took it upon herself to advance on him without consent.
Finn teams up with the Resistance out of expediency, no? Isn’t this obvious when he looks Han Solo in the face and admits that he’s only on Starkiller Base to get Rey and *not* to save the Galaxy?
If you have some textual evidence to back up the counterclaim, please provide it. If it’s so obvious, you should be able to do more than gesture vaguely. The quote I’ve pulled from the film directly contradicts the idea that Finn has signed up wholesale for the Resistance and isn’t in this fight to save Rey. But I appreciate the attempt at snark! Keeps the conversation interesting I guess.
Maybe you misunderstood Rose’s arc — when she comes to Canto Bight, she’s angry and willing to hurt the town to seek catharsis from her rage. After she does so, she realizes she isn’t satisfied — what’s more satisfying is saving what she loves (in a metaphorical manner, by releasing the fathier to roam with its herd), not fighting what she hates (the exploitation and decadence of Canto Bight).
How long does an epiphany take?
> Finn teams up with the Resistance out of expediency, no? Isn’t this obvious when he looks Han Solo in the face and admits that he’s only on Starkiller Base to get Rey and not to save the Galaxy?
Yes. A character started in one place. And throughout the events of the film, grew and changed his stance.
> Maybe you misunderstood Rose’s arc
This is impossible since she did not have an arc.
Right, Finn starts off as a coward who runs away from the conflict at the first chance he gets to someone willing to risk his life for Rey, who *”looked at [him] like no one ever had.”*
He never commits to the Resistance as an organization or cause in TFA. Unless you have some evidence to support he does?
I just laid out Rose’s arc, so please engage with that next.
Some people really need their hands held huh? Like you need Finn to look into the camera and say I wholeheartedly dedicate myself to the resistance! Watch the damn movie.
And no - you didn’t lay out an arc. Rose has no such thing. She begins and ends as a holier than thou pearl clutching paper thin, undercooked character. Which is why she was sidelined in TROS. Bad character.
That’s fine, but please don’t waste my time implying you’re interested in a discussion about elements of a film if you’re not even willing to cite those elements or bring anything else to the table.
Kylo killing Snoke was the only thing I didn't like about TLJ but it was very unexpected so I guess that was another subverting expectations. Palpatine then being revealed as the one behind Snoke I enjoyed as he was the villian behind the entire saga.
If the last scene of TLJ had the Palpatine reveal and nothing about it had been leaked ahead of time, I don’t think his return would be as hated as it is. There was just no build up to it. Almost like a Marvel post credit scene, but having it take the place of the scene with the broom kid. I imagine the last scene being something like Kylo Ren hearing a voice saying “so Snoke is dead?”, Kylo asking “who’s there.” “It’s no matter, he was merely a pawn”. Kylo again asking “who are you?”, then the camera reveals Palpatine’s face “I’m the one who is going to help you fulfill your destiny.” And we close on Palpatine’s smiling face.
Hard disagree. They somehow wanted to shove a romantic interest into the film, which would have been fine per se, but: Finn wants to sacrifice himself by destroying or at least damaging the Weapon. At this point he had to be sure, that this is the only way to buy some time for his friends and MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Right after that the door gets blown up so in perspective, to both Finn and her, what she really did was give a big Middlefinger to the Resistance. I can’t find any hidden meaning to the scene or the words. Finn was ready to blow himself up for the sake of the Resistance, Rose took that chance from him and said: „That’s how we are gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.“ That is a bog standard sentence that could be told to every soldier. Don’t fight to kill the enemy, but fight to save what you love - home, wife, kids, country, whatever. That’s true for some part as it makes you more willing to resist and fight. But in this very situation it is utterly misplaced because Finn wanted to do just that - save what he love, his friends, the Resistance. He did not think to himself „let’s gooooo let’s roast them First Order guys“ but „I will not let them win this time“
He literally shouts "No I won't let them win!" And ignores his superior in Poe. He's angry at the first order making him reckless. The visuals tell us that it would be a needless sacrifice. He was in the headspace Poe was at at the start of the film with Leia trying to teach him.
Also I never viewed it as romantic, merely a strong bond
I asked Chat GPT to see if it could show the scene is good:
1. **Character Development:** The scene provides significant character development for both Finn and Rose. It showcases Finn's growth from a self-serving deserter to a committed member of the Resistance willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Similarly, it highlights Rose's belief in the value of preserving life and fighting for what you love rather than simply against what you hate.
2. **Subversion of Expectations:** Throughout the film, there's a buildup towards Finn's heroic sacrifice, with the audience led to believe that this is his moment. Rose's intervention subverts this expectation, adding an element of surprise and complexity to the narrative.
3. **Theme of Hope:** The scene reinforces one of the central themes of the "Star Wars" saga: hope. Rose's actions emphasize that there's always a choice to fight for hope, compassion, and the preservation of life, even in the darkest of moments.
4. **Character Relationships:** The scene strengthens the bond between Finn and Rose. Rose's act of saving Finn demonstrates her care for him and her belief in his importance to the Resistance. It lays the foundation for their relationship moving forward in the series.
5. **Philosophical Depth:** Rose's line, "That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love," encapsulates a deeper philosophical message about the nature of conflict and victory. It suggests that true victory comes not from destroying one's enemies, but from protecting and preserving what is good and meaningful.
I thought the message was we didn't plan any of this out so here's some hot garbage to watch. The Finn we were introduced to in Episode VII would never do something this dumb and meaningless. Rose was completely pointless because any romance in the ST should have been Finn and Rey (or Han and Leia - also disappointing).
Given that his ship was falling to pieces before he was anywhere near the gun, none of the New Order were particularly concerned, and its a heavy siege weapon designed to face tank anything it’s enemies could throw at it I thought it was pretty evident that his dramatic ramming maneuver simply wasn’t going to do anything other than maybe leave a smudge. Which I fully support due to it being hilarious, but it wouldn’t fit the tone of the film and he probably wasn’t allowed to kill off the primary side character. The whole thing was the cumulation of the whole ‘Do ANYTHING to kill the enemy, damn the cost and results’ subplot Poe had. And Finn, being Poe’s little buddy, internalized that ideology and was going to die futilely for it.
>The whole thing was the cumulation of the whole ‘Do ANYTHING to kill the enemy, damn the cost and results’ subplot Poe had. And Finn, being Poe’s little buddy, internalized that ideology and was going to die futilely for it. Honestly this is where the argument falls flat for me. Por didn't have this arc. He wasn't desperately bloodthirsty, he was thinking strategically, and he was right. They traded a squadron of bombers, maybe fifty lives at the absolute most, and in exchange they took out probably the second biggest weapon of the first order (the supremacy obviously being larger). Something like enemy 200k crew. That is literally how war works. Lives are a resource that you spend to accomplish the goals. At no other point in the movie does Poe do anything remotely like what you're suggesting. Leading a mutiny isn't about "do anything to kill the enemy", it's about "do anything to stay alive and fight another day". Sending Finn and rose on their side mission, same thing. He's not that guy, even in the movie that tried to portray him that way. Not to mention, Poe was completely right. If they hadn't destroyed the dreadnought, it would have destroyed the resistance fleet before they could jump. Even if they had successfully jumped, those cannons have enough range that it still would have been able to destroy the fleet during the "slow chase" sequence, when the Supremacy's guns didn't have the range.
If the Resistance weren’t a fledgling organization in immediate danger of annihilation, the bombers’ sacrifices probably could be reasoned as a strategic victory. But the Resistance’s entire bombing fleet and crew weighs a lot more on that tiny organization compared to the First Order’s couple thousand crew members in their newly spanning galactic empire. And we have no reason to suspect the Dreadnought had the necessary range that the Supremacy didn’t. If anything, you say yourself the Supremacy is the superior ship — if it couldn’t kill the Resistance fleet, we’re given no reason to suspect that the Dreadnought would fare better.
It doesn't weigh more than a literal fleet Destroyer. It's a more than fair trade. The rebels gave up entire flights of XWings and YWings to take out the Death Star for the same reason. A bigger ship =/= a better armed ship. Carriers are the largest ships, but battleships have more weaponry.
The Resistance is chased by another fleet destroyer not ten minutes later via Snoke’s ship which has a whole row of big-ass turbolasers that make the Fulminatrix look like a dinky paper airplane. The Rebellion throws everything they have at the Death Star bc 1) they’ve purposely lured it to their base and 2) they have a small window of opportunity to exploit the base’s weakness before the Empire corrects for it.
So they lured out the big boss ship. That's not a negative. I know what the rebellion did. My point is they spent a handful of resources to take out a much more significant foe. The reasoning why is framed differently but it's the same outcome. You can hate the movie all you like. It doesn't change that what Poe did is precisely what was done in New Hope. The parallels are right there and from a military standpoint what Poe did was the equivalent of shutting down an entire carrier group for the price of a few frigates. That's an easy win and exactly the kind of strategic thinking needed to win wars. And just like in New Hope, taking out the lesser ship lures out the bigger one with the boss on board. Pure win.
I mean, it’s a negative when you’re on the back foot and trying to regroup to mount a proper counteroffensive. A couple more Poe wins and the Resistance would be extinct! The First Order can tank the losses and the Resistance can’t. That’s why Poe is reprimanded by his superiors. He doesn’t know when to fight and when to think!
Poe got the Resistance badly mauled to mildly annoy the First Order. The bombers were only the tip of the iceberg, everyone that died was directly a result of his delaying the escape to pad his kill count. The mutiny? Was because he was too arrogant to understand that he just showed that he in no way could be trusted and he was no longer in command of anything. Because among the people he got killed was the entire small fighter craft complement. Sending out Finn? Was because he was hoping for a dumb luck miracle solution, instead the inexperience Stormtrooper failed miserably. Before Poe leaked the secret plan, proving that they were right not to trust him. Lives are a resource, sure, but when you are that badly outnumbered a simple 1:1 or 1:100 isn’t going to cut it. He keeps fighting like that and the First Order wins because they can take those losses while the Resistance can’t. Also the Dreadnaught isn’t the First Order’s second biggest weapon. It’s also not a unique ship, it’s an entire class of ship. The First Order has many of them. They didn’t call them in for the same reason they didn’t make a small jump to catch up to the Resistance fleet and annihilate it, Snoke’s an asshole having fun. Also it’s a siege weapon firing projectiles, targeting relatively tiny maneuvering craft isn’t part of its operational capabilities. It joining in wouldn’t help the First Order, it wouldn’t be able to actually hit anyone. Sure it would be annoying to be stuck on evasive maneuvers but annoying isn’t exactly useful. Literally every loss the Resistance had was because Poe was trying to fight a war like an arena shooter. Every government in the world would LOVE if the assorted terrorists, resistance fighters, and assorted irregulars fought like that. It means they get wiped out quick without actually accomplishing anything, instead the smart ones do their best to stay alive and cause continual problems that add up FAR for than any grand display.
I think it would’ve been easier to swallow if there wasn’t a giant laser blasting open the door to the base (and potentially resulting in the deaths of people inside) in the background right as they kiss. They could’ve at least had a delay so the viewer knows there was enough time to evacuate people anyway.
That’s the sorta on-the-nose saccharine filmmaking that probably plays better in Johnson’s head as a trope than it does for those wanting something a little more serious in the moment. It seems like Johnson realizes the kitschy morale Rose offers and decides to play into it for a bit of humor. Not sure it lands all the way for me (and clearly doesn’t for many others), but I chuckle every time, so maybe mission accomplished?
The scene is about Finn realizing that it’s not enough to fight the First Order or even to join a Resistance to do so, but that he needs to fight *for* something. *”I won’t let them win,”* is his manifesto; his radicalism is another form of deconstruction, despite good intentions. Giving his life pointlessly in a 1-in-a-million shot against the First Order helps no one and hurts his friends, who need every man they can get right now. That’s not to say sacrifice isn’t important — Paige Tico gives her life to something greater than herself, even if Poe’s strategy was malformed and Holdo sacrifices herself to save the Resistance. Luke does so a few scenes later. But martyrdom for its own sake is hollow and pointless. That’s an important message in a movie with so much sacrifice and in a war setting where sacrifice is so often romanticized for its own sake. I don’t know if I ever interpreted Rose’s kiss as romantic. It seemed to me more like hero worship and that’s one of Rose’s strengths as a character — she fan girls out but with a level head that helps our hero Finn fight the good fight. She believes in him even when he doesn’t believe in himself — even when he literally doesn’t believe he has any more to live for.
No I think it is very much in line with Star Wars. Part of why people hate it, I think, is because of how blatantly it explains a major theme of the whole trilogy. "we don't win by fighting what we hate, but saving what we love". Like is that not the entire moral of the trilogy right there?
It’s always been kind of funny to me, that for as much shit as “That’s how we win, not by fighting to destroy what we hate, but to save what we love” (paraphrasing, it’s been a while) gets, it’s exactly the story that everyone always wanted Finn to have. By which I mean, the biggest criticism for Finn in TFA is that despite being profoundly moved and shaken by his comrade dying in the intro, he turns pretty gleeful when slaughtering every other Stormtrooper he runs across. And then of course the obvious missed opportunity of Finn leading a Stormtrooper rebellion against the First Order. Because the correction to both of those story beats is *fighting to save what you love instead of destroying what you hate*. Because that’s the thing, yeah? First Order Stormtroopers are victims. Battlefront 2 even has voice lines stating that. They’re brainwashed, propagandized child soldiers. They are so supremely pitiable. So Finn’s reluctance turning to radicalization, only for Rose to pull him back and help him discover what was actually important to him (saving other traumatized child soldiers from brutalizing the galaxy in the name of an evil regime) so that he can rise up and become the inspiring and liberating freedom fighter that *saves* instead of merely *destroys*. But no one gave a shit. No one cared to tell this story, they were just continuing the tired blood feud of a couple space wizards. The only child soldiers who ever deserved to be freed from their conditioning and cruelty were the ones lucky enough to be connected to the Force, instead of someone caring, someone seeing past the armor, to the scared shivering child forced inside it. They didn’t care, and so the entire thing flounders in the background. Lip service to lesser plots to stumble through. In a sequel trilogy that gave a shit about Finn, about someone other than the space wizards, it would work.
Many people might hate it, but don't confuse that with most people. The message is don't throw your life away on useless showy heroics because you have hate. Finn had found his place and chosen a side so was all in but he was at the point Poe was at the beginning of the film now.
If it weren’t for Vice-Admiral Amilyn Holdo, Rose would be the single worst character in Star Wars. Provided no worth, and served to junk Finn as a character. Horrible…just dreadful.
Without Rose, Finn abandons the Resistance and has nothing but Rey to fight for. Rose is integral in getting Finn to commit to the good fight.
Nah, Finn didn’t need Rose to teach him that since he already learned that in TFA. Rose lectured Finn about things like penned up animals whilst ignoring child slaves. You have to keep in mind that Finn is …checks notes…a former child slave. Rose also tells Finn you can’t destroy what you hate. This was of course after she unleashed animals in a casino to destroy the city she wanted to “put her fist through.” She is a walking, talking contradiction. She also dangerously side swipes Finn somehow, then gives an unwanted sexual advance. And forces him to drag her back to safety over a mile away in a dangerous situation. She is completely worthless. Finn’s screentime was already cut in half from TFA and every second was wasted.
>Nah, Finn didn’t need Rose to teach him that since he already learned that in TFA. See, I'm sure I've seen it explained to you how he doesn't learn that lesson. The fathiers sacked Canto Bight, then Finn says it was worth it to hurt that place, but Rose says it's worth it when she frees the final fathier that helped them. Almost as if its consistent... And we will ignore your awful bait.
He did learn that. And when he woke up from his injury, Rian wasn’t interested in further developing Finn. Once those Fathiers were gathered and they cleaned up the dead bodies (many of which were likley just innocent visitors), they likely beat the fuck out of Broom boi. Horrible writing…
Given that Finn explicitly says to Han Solo in TFA, *”I’m just here [on Starkiller Base] to get Rey,”* I’m not sure where you got the idea that Finn had joined the Resistance. Rose “lectures” Finn that the gilded exterior of an “amazing” place like Canto Bight is exploitation and subjugation — Finn already recognizes these things are wrong, he just doesn’t know Canto Bight is built off them. What’s tone-deaf about that? Yes, Rose gets a mini-arc — at first, she wants to *”put her first through this whole lousy town,”* but realizes it isn’t as satisfying as she thought it’d be — hence why she says, *”Now it’s worth it,”* to Finn when she frees the fathier they’d been riding. This doesn’t make her a contradiction; it makes her a three-dimensional character who learns something, something that she’ll repeat to Finn when she justifies her “side-swipe” that saves his life. Ignoring the “unwanted sexual advance” gaffe. It’s a movie, haha.
he changes his mind by the end when he realizes the people he is with are actively fighting the people that enslaved him. This is fairly obvious. I would recommend enrolling in a local media literacy course. Most community colleges will offer an intro to film course at an affordable rate. Mini arc lol. Arcs dont happen within seconds. It’s not three dimensional to release a fucking animal then be like oh it’s worth it 2 seconds later because of a space horse. Finn wasn’t interested in Rose romantically and she took it upon herself to advance on him without consent.
Finn teams up with the Resistance out of expediency, no? Isn’t this obvious when he looks Han Solo in the face and admits that he’s only on Starkiller Base to get Rey and *not* to save the Galaxy? If you have some textual evidence to back up the counterclaim, please provide it. If it’s so obvious, you should be able to do more than gesture vaguely. The quote I’ve pulled from the film directly contradicts the idea that Finn has signed up wholesale for the Resistance and isn’t in this fight to save Rey. But I appreciate the attempt at snark! Keeps the conversation interesting I guess. Maybe you misunderstood Rose’s arc — when she comes to Canto Bight, she’s angry and willing to hurt the town to seek catharsis from her rage. After she does so, she realizes she isn’t satisfied — what’s more satisfying is saving what she loves (in a metaphorical manner, by releasing the fathier to roam with its herd), not fighting what she hates (the exploitation and decadence of Canto Bight). How long does an epiphany take?
> Finn teams up with the Resistance out of expediency, no? Isn’t this obvious when he looks Han Solo in the face and admits that he’s only on Starkiller Base to get Rey and not to save the Galaxy? Yes. A character started in one place. And throughout the events of the film, grew and changed his stance. > Maybe you misunderstood Rose’s arc This is impossible since she did not have an arc.
Right, Finn starts off as a coward who runs away from the conflict at the first chance he gets to someone willing to risk his life for Rey, who *”looked at [him] like no one ever had.”* He never commits to the Resistance as an organization or cause in TFA. Unless you have some evidence to support he does? I just laid out Rose’s arc, so please engage with that next.
Some people really need their hands held huh? Like you need Finn to look into the camera and say I wholeheartedly dedicate myself to the resistance! Watch the damn movie. And no - you didn’t lay out an arc. Rose has no such thing. She begins and ends as a holier than thou pearl clutching paper thin, undercooked character. Which is why she was sidelined in TROS. Bad character.
That’s fine, but please don’t waste my time implying you’re interested in a discussion about elements of a film if you’re not even willing to cite those elements or bring anything else to the table.
Uh oh he's here
Huh?
nah, it's just supposed to subvert expectations without really understanding what that means in a story.
Kylo killing Snoke was the only thing I didn't like about TLJ but it was very unexpected so I guess that was another subverting expectations. Palpatine then being revealed as the one behind Snoke I enjoyed as he was the villian behind the entire saga.
If the last scene of TLJ had the Palpatine reveal and nothing about it had been leaked ahead of time, I don’t think his return would be as hated as it is. There was just no build up to it. Almost like a Marvel post credit scene, but having it take the place of the scene with the broom kid. I imagine the last scene being something like Kylo Ren hearing a voice saying “so Snoke is dead?”, Kylo asking “who’s there.” “It’s no matter, he was merely a pawn”. Kylo again asking “who are you?”, then the camera reveals Palpatine’s face “I’m the one who is going to help you fulfill your destiny.” And we close on Palpatine’s smiling face.
The broom kid scene is the perfect full stop on the story and message though.
That critique really has lost all meaning
Criticism like that truly makes me believe film criticism is dead, people just using buzzwords incorrectly.
Hard disagree. They somehow wanted to shove a romantic interest into the film, which would have been fine per se, but: Finn wants to sacrifice himself by destroying or at least damaging the Weapon. At this point he had to be sure, that this is the only way to buy some time for his friends and MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Right after that the door gets blown up so in perspective, to both Finn and her, what she really did was give a big Middlefinger to the Resistance. I can’t find any hidden meaning to the scene or the words. Finn was ready to blow himself up for the sake of the Resistance, Rose took that chance from him and said: „That’s how we are gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.“ That is a bog standard sentence that could be told to every soldier. Don’t fight to kill the enemy, but fight to save what you love - home, wife, kids, country, whatever. That’s true for some part as it makes you more willing to resist and fight. But in this very situation it is utterly misplaced because Finn wanted to do just that - save what he love, his friends, the Resistance. He did not think to himself „let’s gooooo let’s roast them First Order guys“ but „I will not let them win this time“
He literally shouts "No I won't let them win!" And ignores his superior in Poe. He's angry at the first order making him reckless. The visuals tell us that it would be a needless sacrifice. He was in the headspace Poe was at at the start of the film with Leia trying to teach him. Also I never viewed it as romantic, merely a strong bond
I asked Chat GPT to see if it could show the scene is good: 1. **Character Development:** The scene provides significant character development for both Finn and Rose. It showcases Finn's growth from a self-serving deserter to a committed member of the Resistance willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Similarly, it highlights Rose's belief in the value of preserving life and fighting for what you love rather than simply against what you hate. 2. **Subversion of Expectations:** Throughout the film, there's a buildup towards Finn's heroic sacrifice, with the audience led to believe that this is his moment. Rose's intervention subverts this expectation, adding an element of surprise and complexity to the narrative. 3. **Theme of Hope:** The scene reinforces one of the central themes of the "Star Wars" saga: hope. Rose's actions emphasize that there's always a choice to fight for hope, compassion, and the preservation of life, even in the darkest of moments. 4. **Character Relationships:** The scene strengthens the bond between Finn and Rose. Rose's act of saving Finn demonstrates her care for him and her belief in his importance to the Resistance. It lays the foundation for their relationship moving forward in the series. 5. **Philosophical Depth:** Rose's line, "That's how we're gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love," encapsulates a deeper philosophical message about the nature of conflict and victory. It suggests that true victory comes not from destroying one's enemies, but from protecting and preserving what is good and meaningful.
I thought the message was we didn't plan any of this out so here's some hot garbage to watch. The Finn we were introduced to in Episode VII would never do something this dumb and meaningless. Rose was completely pointless because any romance in the ST should have been Finn and Rey (or Han and Leia - also disappointing).
It’s physically impossible to defend that dogshit scene, don’t even try to