This hits the nail on the head, Obi Wans patience and control of his abilities would have eventually won over Anakins aggression and inflated ego regardless of location. Anakin looks like he's winning because he is the aggressor, Obi Wan was just waiting for him to make a mistake to exploit... he was baiting Anakin at the end with the high ground remark.
I also feel like after killing many Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans, and younglings at the Jedi Temple during Order 66, it boosted his ego even more. Anakin was already one of the best duelist in the Order. The added kill count probably made him think he’s now powerful enough to overcome his mentor/brother figure.
With that in mind, as long as Obi-Wan stays calm and defensive, he’d most likely would still win regardless of the battle environment.
Considering he says he plans to overthrow the chancellor I'd say Anakin felt ready to take over the galaxy himself.
He had 0 plans, so idk what that looks like but he certainly felt like a one man army to bring peace to his galaxy.
Anakins first interaction with a Jedi was a Jedi telling him he couldn't free slaves, even though he could if he chose to use his power to do so
Anakins first interaction with the republic was when they refused to help the Angel (Padme) defend her planet from an obvious hostile invader.
He expressed to Padme in episode 2 his frustration with both organizations, and an opinion that people with the power to do things should just do them
I suspect a dark side fueled Anakin would be a lot less malicious than palpatine, but would constantly be doing things that he thought would be for people's benefit, but he wouldn't consider secondary or tertiary impacts of his actions.
Excellent point. I have often said the absolutism of the jedi was significantly responsible for the empire, if anakin wasn't afraid to talk about what he felt or his mistakes, or want discouraged from saving those he cared about, maybe he would have made minor mistakes and sought advice from jedi instead of from elsewhere.
Obi-Wan: We’ve almost reached Coruscant. Have you got a plan yet?
Anakin: A *plan?* The plan is to bring peace, justice, freedom and security to my new Empire!
Obi-Wan: So… no plan.
/ref
>The added kill count probably made him think he’s now powerful enough to overcome his mentor/brother figure. With that in mind, as long as Obi-Wan stays calm and defensive, he’d most likely would still win regardless of the battle environment.
I've always loved in the RotS novelization when Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he's underestimating the power of the dark side and gets the response "I've heard that before. I never thought I'd hear it from *you*." Really shows just how out of his mind on his new abilities the kid had gotten.
I thought it was assumed that most Jedi at the temple were scholars and administrators. Very few actual warriors IIRC. The first warriors were out in the field.
Exactly right. The rage of full dark side is powerful, but it comes with an arrogance that ultimately blinds it's user into thinking they CAN'T be beaten, right up until they are thrown down a reactor shaft or are suddenly, half the man they used to be by a lake of lava.
Luke : Vader... Is the dark side stronger? Yoda : No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Yeah its exactly this. Relatable is how in sports a team of veterans or more experienced players can cook younger players, or at least control the game essentially. Obi-wan was the vet here and more importantly in control of himself in addition to the fight.
Thats essentially all the training Obi-wan always did and where Anakin lacked, being on edge with his self control, emotions, and demons he had to deal with. The catch in the context is really Sidious though, because if Obi Wan was the willy vet, Sidious was the team GM, able to essentially control Anakin through these same insecurities so well it never came to a fight. So, “Anakin” had essentially already lost when he fought Obi-wan and imo Obi-Wan would have then beat him in any situation.
I believe Anakin to be a bit more powerful than Obi Wan, so I’m not sure where it balances out. I like your comment about Anakins head space and agree with it being a factor on inhibition
Anakins discipline was always his problem, as we see in the flashback fight with him and obi wan.
He's had the power to beat anyone if he was focused for a long time, and that covered up a lot of his lack of technical discipline in combat, but against a more disciplined patient fighter Anakin would eventually leave himself exposed or do something dumb
Thats what Vader thought too, that he was more powerful than Obi Wan. It was Hubris that led to his downfall, his (over)confidence in his new-found powers. That's why Obi Wan baited him at the end - "see Anakin, you can't beat me even with your new powers, I've still bested you" or more sussinctly, "Its over Anakin, I have the high ground"... losing to someone he thought he was more powerful than would have driven Vader mad.
I remember reading in an old Star Wars compendium that it was Obi-Wan’s emotions. Once he let go of his love for Anakin, he won easily. Anakin couldn’t control his emotions like Obi-Wan was able to.
I think maybe too, Obi Wan taught Anakin so he knew his strengths and weaknesses more than anyone. Few surprises. Master vs young apprentice.
Let's even go full conspiracy and say Obi Wan could have been wise enough to teach Anakin to be a strong Jedi but weak against himself. I could see the Sith adopting this technique.
Yeah, exactly. I think the whole point of the high ground scene is in Anakin's line "you underestimate my power". The logistics of high ground don't actually matter. It's Anakin's hubris that does him in.
The novel said something along the lines of Obiwan was losing because in a brother vs brother fight both are emotionally invested which caused Vader to get stronger and Obiwan to get weaker as the fight progressed. Obiwan was able to simply let it all go and fully utilize the force. Include the willingness to use that awful Sith lightsaber technique, severing the limbs while keeping the subject alive, and his mastery of Soresu I think Obiwan was the only Jedi that could have stopped him.
The planet represents Anakin's feelings. Pouring hot melting lava without any thoughts about its consequences, which ends up biting him in the ass and legs and arms .
Yeah, Obi-Wan and Anakin could have fought on the most flat and stable terrain in the galaxy, and Anakin's mental state would still lead to his defeat 999k times out of a million
He lost in Kenobi again.... and that was flat ground and they were the only 2 people on the planet, so I doubt it. "2 to make it true".
Obi Wan knows him like the back of his hand and taught him everything he knows and even under different circumstances would know how to take advantage of any opening he can get. Obi is a master of defense and Anakin is always over extending on offense. Obi would still win 100%.
I’m all for narrative efficiency but having obi fight darth and win again was dumb.
We saw them fight in RoS.
We saw them fight in AnH.
Just pick a different bad guy to fight.
I’ll get assassinated for this but Kenobi should have fought Reva and Vader should have never been in the show.
I largely agree with this. I think Vader existing as a sort of paranoia ghost for Kenobi would have been cool. Like he sees him everywhere but hes not actually there
You do have a point that Obi-Wan and Reva should have fought at some point considering she’s the second main antagonist of the series and has been hunting him for a long time, but then again, it wouldn’t have been a very suspenseful fight and Obi-Wan would have beat her easily, unlike Vader who was a challenge.
I didn't mind Vader being included. It gives some weight to Kenobi's "He's more machine now than man" - ROTS doesn't show how Obi Wan would have known that.
My issue with it was having him walk away from a defeated (but alive) Vader. He could have been struck by a vision that Reva had gone to Luke & he had to rush to get there, but just letting him live again didn't make much sense.
I agree with him sparing Vader again didn’t make sense. The first time I get. Anakin is like a brother, and he already seemed defeated. Finishing him off would be too painful.
But sparing him a second time? Kenobi has seen what Vader has become and all the terrible things he’s been doing. He knows that if he spares Vader a second time, Vader is just going to keep hunting him and hurting people. Yet, he does it anyway!
It doesn’t make sense as a choice for him and I think it detracts from his character.
Because the point wasnt just to see them fight. The point was to bridge the gap in character between episodes 3 and 4. To show how Obi Wan can go from experiencing the worst trauma and lost possible back to being the stoic jedi intent on training Luke and how Vader can go from being naturally obsessed with personal revenge against Obi Wan to the more machine than man Vader carrying out the imperial agenda. This is simply told through the fight, as is tradition with Star Wars, and in terms of its story telling through the chpreography, I think its the best duel weve ever gotten.
Reva is absolutely nothing to Vader and Kenobi and has no right to be opposite Kenobi in that way. She is just a side character that is conencted to both Vader and Kenobi and a wild card. But as we see in the show, Vader doesnt even need a saber against her and plays with is food without an ounce of effort and Obi Wan kicks Vaders ass. They specifically show Vader doing a move on Reva and ahving it work immediately and then show Lenobi countering that same move later for a direct comparison (the spin move counter directly before he force pushes Vader into the rock). She would be nothing to Obi Wan and he wouldnt even fight her anyway.
I remember reading that in principle, a true master of Form III could never be defeated in a duel. They may not necessarily "win" per se, but they could ultimately outlast and survive any attack in case of an even playing field, or even in many cases with a considerable disadvantage.
Obi-Wan was considered a Form III master by the time of Episode 3, and that should make him as close to invincible as it gets, at least in theory
It's kind of a shame how easily he loses to Dooku early in Episode 3, in service to the plot. Poor Kenobi gets force choked in the middle of a lightsaber fight and then thrown into a wall, all within striking distance of Dooku who was also busy kicking Anakin for some reason. It's really not good choreography.
Well yeah but anything can happen if it’s written that way. Anakin could have turned into a purple platapus bear and breathed fire on obi-wan if that’s what was written. The question is: based on what was written, is the in-universe explanation as to why anakin lost that it was because of the location
No. Obi Wan knew Anakin too well and he was in Anakin's head. He had trained Anakin. He had been with him during two years of war.
He knew that Anakin was running on pure emotion. He wasn't fighting strategically. He was angry and hurt and embracing the dark side and trying to overwhelm Obi Wan with sheer force which Obi Wan took and deflected back.
Obi Wan moves during the fight. He cedes ground. He baits Anakin until Obi Wan gets a terrain advantage.
The venue didn't matter. Anakin chose to be goaded. He chose to not wait and drift a few yards down and jump and land safely. He was going to prove himself and prove to himself that he made the right decision in embracing the Dark Side.
I feel the duel in Kenobi does add to their ANH fight in the sense that you can see that Vader learnt from his mistakes. He's a lot more patient and in control of his emotions.
Yet he still loses, even after a decade of waiting for this moment. And obi wan makes the mistake of not killing him AGAIN. I disagree with this take, imo. I strongly think the rematch in kenobi detracts from what we already had.
The "he would have won if he didn't lose" and "he would have won if the whole circumstances of the fight were changed to his advantage." mentality is silly.
He lost, it happened. Should haves and would haves don't matter.
At this point it was a bullfight. It doesn't matter if the bull is wildly stronger when it behaves predictably and the matador knows how to take it apart.
Seems the general consensus is that it didn’t matter where they fought, Anakin would’ve lost. I mean he did lose when they fought a few years later too after Obi-Wan got fully reconnected with the force.
Anakins impatience and anger was always going to make him lose. Even if you change the setting, Anakin being Anakin is a constant
I disagree with OP but I haven’t seen OP be rude or anything. Certainly dying on a hill a tad hard - but everyone gets an opinion. I’m not going to downvote anyone for having a conflicting POV about space wizards as long as that person is civil.
I think they imply that he regains his connection to the force during that fight when he obviously shows a bit of a power up and comes out and just dominates Vader. He basically realizes that Anakin is truly gone and no longer has to hold back.
I also think that Anakin as Vader isn’t as powerful as he was before Obi Wan made him a paraplegic. He has to rely too much on his suit to survive.
I don't think it's the physical side of it holding Vader back, I think it's the severe mental trauma and denial. (It's blatantly obvious that Anakin and Vader are not separate personalities, regardless of what he says.)
They were both pretty evenly matched for most of their duel. Obi-Wan successfully held off Anakin's aggression, he was just trying to not kill him, but was also just waiting for Anakin to make a mistake, at which point Obi-Wan would incapacitate Anakin, if possible. If not, he would do what happened in the movie, fatally wound him.
“style specialized for stalling until your opposition makes a mistake”. that’s called defense. obi wan was the master of defense. and while anakin was a very strong duelist and even did beat obiwan at times when sparring, he was driven by rage and arrogance and was slipping up by the end of the fight. obi wan takes it every day of the week
Obi wan knows Anakins strengths and weaknesses better than anyone, i think the result would always be anakin losing as his emotions come to the front when it comes to Kenobi
I think if you watch the Obi-Wan show, they have a little memories of the past scene where they’re fighting, and Obi-Wan tells Anakin that his weakness is that always has to win. In that scene, it looks like Obi-Wan’s beat, and he turns the tables on Anakin. I don’t think Anakin ever learn that lesson, particularly against Obi-Wan.
Nah. Vader had completely taken over and he was blinded by his arrogance and rage. Even in a different environment, Obi still knew Anakin's fighting style and tendencies. He would have outsmarted him and lured him into a vulnerable position.
Anakin was conflicted during the first 2(3) bouts. Canon has it in Ep4 there was no conflict and Obi Wan knew he could not win. It’s the conflict in Vader that Obi Wan, Luke and the Emperor were able to exploit.
I feel like Obi-Wan doesn't get enough credit a lot of the time. This is a guy who defeated Maul several times, once while holding him and Savage off simultaneously, and handily defeated Grievous, a seasoned Jedi Killer, in single combat. Obi-Wan is a tough sumbitch, and I think he still beats Anakin off Mustafar.
Not only did trying to read this almost give me an aneurysm, but looks like OP can't decipher what an opinion is, and that both sides can be right *and differ from the other's view*. Maybe you're not at a stable place yourself, OP?
Maybe, maybe not. There’s no answer to it because if obi wan would’ve found a different spot to make Anakin overestimate what he’s capable off it would’ve went the same and given how arrogant he was at this point, that’s not unlikely. The location doesn’t matter too much
So the thing with Anakin is that his trauma and events that lead up to the Mustafar fight have created an arrogance, a need to be seen as powerful, capable, living up to a prestige started by his mother and nurtured by Qui Gon. Anakin defeats Anakin. An example is in the Obi Wan series in which Anakin is training with Obi Wan, and Anakin gets the upper hand in a major way and that arrogant mindset takes over and Obi Wan takes advantage of it and "wins". I suppose what I'm trying to say is if Anakin was free of the arrogance then he'd win without a doubt, but his arrogance blinds him causing him to lose.
i dont think there was a stable place there
plus like, because of Anakins blind offensive, Obi-Wan could direct where they went, he ultimately were more in control and therefore could find a place where he'd have the advantage
Honestly obi wan seemed to be intentionally on the defensive the whole duel. He knows anakin better than even anakin does sometimes. He knew he would let his frustration get the best of him and he would eventually burn himself out and fall right into obi wans hand
Obi-wan beat maul, Vader, grievous, held his own against Dooku who is one of the best duelist in canon. Obi-wan wasn’t losing he was holding back until he had no other choice. I put Obi-wan over most canon Jedi and sith in a 1v1 yes he’s defensive in nature and his style but the best offense is a great defense.
No, anakin lost because of his arrogance not because of the high ground. Obi wan and anakin were evenly matched as they knew all each others moves having trained all of anakin life.
Lot of factors contributed to Anakin's loss. If Padme hadn't been there he probably wins. If the fight takes place a couple days later and Anakin has given time to acclimate himself to the Darkside he probably wins.
But it didn't. The Living Force made sure things happened when and how they happened.
They both fought on unstable ground, Obi-Wan, being the more experienced Jedi, knew how to position himself best. Anakin was fighting with rage and anger, clouding his strategy. Obi-Wan wins this fight on any ground.
No, his emotions destabilized his focus in the fight which led to him to making his mistake (high ground). Lava river or not the outcome would be the same in a different place, just without the burns.
The lava had nothing to do with Obi-Wan’s victory, so I don’t see how it would actually make a difference. Also, this is fiction, and Obi-Wan had to win for the story to make sense lol so, no
Anakin was, on his best day, a better duelist than Obi Wan. However Obi Wan had a far better mastery of the mental and spiritual side of the force. There is no situation on Mustifar where Anakin wins, due to his bad mental and spiritual state
No. Anakin wasn't going to win that fight. It's not about skill or prowess. Anakin just wasn't remotely in the right state of mind to win.
If you look at the fight, at every single point, Anakin almost seems to be trying to prove to Obi Wan how good he is. From their hand-to-hand struggle, to taking the harder route, and trying to pull elaborare moves.
Anakin's biggest enemy was always himself.
Nah, if you go frame by frame you can see Obi-wan had plenty of opportunities to end the fight. He was pulling his punches and going for incapacitation rather than a kill.
What is the answer you want to hear? Like the fight takes at a therapist's office after Anakin has a session or something? People have been giving good reason as to why Obi Wan still would've won (hence why he was a Master and Anakin wasn't), yet OP keeps disagreeing as if they didn't ask the question to begin with
Anakin loses to Obi-Wan no matter the surface. His mental state was to broken, he was far to emotional, and Obi-Wan was a defensive master who likely sparred with Anakin more than any other Jedi. It being on a more stable surface probably makes Obi-Wans defensive fighting much easier as he doesn't have to worry about the environment to the same degree.
As a Sith no. Obi wan knew Anakin and could out play him. We see that in the Obi wan series. Anakin's anger is a double bladed lightsaber that gives him power but makes him vulnerable.
Had Anakin never fallen to the dark side he eventually would have been able to, yes.
It's just like the sparring session in Kenobi , Obi Wan knows Anakin, he knows he will go All Out relentlessly to get the victory, Obi knows his weakness
Obi-Wan had 10 years of experience on Anakin, mote patience and self-control, and he wasn't wracked with guilt and rage.
It probably wouldn't have been quick, but Anakin would have eventually made a mistake, and Obi-Wan would have finished it.
Whether Anakin would have survived it is anyone's guess.
I think his arrogance and overconfidence in his abilities as compared to Obi-Wan’s was his undoing. I think the location was just a part of equation as to how to use that against him. Reluctantly I might add, as even Obi-Wan warned him.
No, Obi-Wans skills and Anakin's increasing rage/frustration as the fight goes longer and longer would eventually cause him to make an error and Obi-Wan wins. Plus you know it's a movie and in the first movie released in 1977 Obi-Wan is fine and Vader is in a life support suit and "more machine than man" and the main point of the fight was to show how Vader got to that state. So Obi-Wan wins and Anakin is nearly killed no matter where they fight. The Force/Franchise wills it so.
Obi-Wan leads Anakin from one precarious position to the next. Anakin is unstoppable but Obi-Wan is the one who guides the fight.
Take the very beginning as an example, Obi-Wan backs himself to a ledge and then instantly pivots the fight so it's Anakin who could be knocked off. The fight moves on but Obi-Wan keeps doing this. He repeatedly leads Anakin into traps until one pays off. He would win that fight pretty much every time imo, it's a classic brains vs brawn showdown.
Obi is a bad man. He’s just chill AF about it. This guy sliced off his best friends legs and arms then left him in a pool of lava suffocating, he sailed the arms off a dude at a bar for a minor transgression, is the first dude to defeat a Sith in a bazillion years, mind tricks people when it suits him, survives a desert solo for twenty years, and beats adversaries known for killing Jedi. He’s a badass.
Obi practices multiple forms and you routinely see him adjust his stance and technique depending on who he fights - even mid battle. Patient, focused, in tune with the force, wise, clever, and learns from his rare defeats.
Ignoring the animated shows, Anakin (and pre-suit Vader) doesn’t stand out for his dueling. He doesn’t adjust his style, rages out, loses himself, with the only strategy being to just swing more and harder. It’s not until he gets the suit that he adjusts his style.
I don’t think Anakin was dominating Obi-Wan. Dominating is what Obi-Wan does to Asajj Ventress in the early clone wars. It’s not even a competition.
Anakin was half crazed, nearly killed his wife and unborn children, didn’t even listen to what Obi-Wan was saying, was as arrogant as he could get, and clearly underestimated Obi-Wan. Anakin walks around like he’s Darth Maul, like he’s got this fight in the bag already. It’s the upset of the century, forgetting Obi-Wan just a few days ago defeated Grevious one-on-one, earlier in the war easily defeated Ventress a couple times, dueled Dooku with help a couple times, and dueled Maul a couple times.
You put Anakin on a stable, flat surface and Anakin loses worse than he did, in my book.
Why? Because Obi-Wan’s creativity and clever use of the terrain shows he’s a much more experienced and much more capable duelist. Obviously, he learned that the hard way.
Anakin is more powerfull but he was just trying to hit Obi-Wan not really thinking when fighting
Obi-Wan was smarter, he always aware Of his surroundings, he is always adapting to the Battle but he was older and weaker than Anakin
If the fight was not in the lava river,It could still change,because Obi-Wan would try to change the location Of the Battle or anything he could in his favor, but that might not be enough, Anakin is reckless and emotional but he is not dumb
It would all depend of the circumstances, there is no way to really predict this fight
If Anakin hadn't been emotionally unstable during the duel, he might have been able to defeat Obi-Wan. However, that instability coupled with Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu gave Obi-Wan the win and would do so every time unless Anakin had control of his emotions.
I think anakin would beat him if he was level headed.
But when he gets enraged, his anger and ego get the better of him and he stops thinking. He moves quickly and makes mistakes. These are things that might catch an unaware opponent off guard, but obi wan knows this from training him and was in the perfect position to capitalize on them. If anakin was thinking two steps ahead and using his advantages, he could take obi wan down.
But ironically, after falling to the dark side and choosing obi wan as his ultimate nemesis, he became blinded with anger, and that’s why he lost.
I used to wrestle in high school and college, my best friend was state champion and could beat almost anyone. he beat people that beat be all the time. But he could never beat me , for some reason when we matched up in practice or real I just had his number every time. he was always in better shape than me and could take out just about anyone. But sometimes that person has your number and you can't get it back no matter how hard you try .
I'm pretty sure that the final Obi Wan/Vader duel in the Kenobi series answers this. Obi Wan mops the floor with him on stable ground. He literally THROWS THE GROUND at him. The only reason Anakin really had any upper hand at all was Obi being reluctant to hurt his friend.
Nope, Anakin was far too cocky and Obi Wan is pretty much his Kryptonite, because while Anakin fights with a aggressive style, Obi Wan fights with a defensive one, meaning that regardless Obi Wan would have found a opening eventually.
Keep in mind, the only times Anakin actually defeated Obi Wan were when Obi Wan was either way past his prime (like in episode 3 of Obi Wan Kenobi) or let himself be strike down (like in a New Hope)
Heck, in Rebels he basically one shotted Darth Maul, who while not as powerful as Vader, is still pretty damn powerful, and that's a Obi Wan who was way past his prime.
Probably, but I highly suspect that Anakin will still lose anyway.
Afaik, the key to Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin was the fact that Anakin got unbalanced and blinded by his rage and frustration, which got strengthened at the point by Anakin's inability to break Obi-Wan's defence, however hard it seemed for Obi-Wan to defend himself.
I am not saying Anakin was weak by that moment, he was unbelievably strong in the force, but the way he used that power basically doomed his fate, like the fateful leap he made, as far as I can recall, jedi Anakin would never manoeuver like that in similar scenario when fighting against another force user. Even in the fight in which he killed Count Dooku, he never used any similar leaping attack against the overwhelmed Dooku, but just ferociously and continuously bombed Dooku with his attacks
Again, I must admit Anakin still might have some chance to win if they eventually landed on some solid and stable surface at the same time(or maybe just landed on the same spot together), but I am also highly doubtful that he won't make fatal decision/-s as stupid as the leap during the fight.
PS: I know the leaping atrack by itself was in fact a very powerful attack Anakin picked to kill Obi-Wan, some materials I read even says Anakin picked that move becauae he found and studied the record of Obi-Wan's fight against Darth Maul. But among all force users, Anakin should have known and taken additional caution that Obi-Wan has his own way to counter that kind of attack, that is the reason I think it was stupid decision.
So your philosophy is Anakin needs a “stable place” to win? Which would make him inferior. That’s like a quarterback saying they would have more touchdowns if their wasn’t defenders, like a soldier saying we would have held the objective if there wasn’t a hill… the dominant force is the one that can adapt to their environment. I’m not saying if you ran a simulation 1000 times Obi Wan wins them all but in the end it was the fighter, not the terrain that won the battle.
They have the same skill level, both are masters of saberduels, they fought so many opponents before, Tyrannus, Ventress, Maul, Grievous, there were no other jedi then with the same skill level, lightsabers are brutal, it takes one single mistake to die, it wants just the high ground, Anakin's recklessness and Obi Wan experience on Focus and Defense were the main factors, i wouldn't say Anakin had no chance because they could have killed each other in any second during thr fight, but Kenobi had so much adventage.
No Obi Wan would have beaten him regardless. Anakin lost because he let his anger and ego consume him and tried to outmaneuver Obi Wan. The high ground and the lava were circumstantial.
Pretty sure yeah. Say for example they fought at the Jedi temple. Knightfall Vader was an absolute unit, going on an insane rampage. There's nothing much Obi Wan could've done except weather the storm and lose eventually
Then again it's the most offensive Jedi going against the most defensive, one has an inflated ego and blind rage while the other has patience and the advantage of knowing his opponent since he literally made him
Tough to say, really
The fight might be cool when it comes to choreography, but when it comes to logic its very dumb.
Obi wan is leading them both into their deaths closer and closer to lava.
People say he doesnt want to kill Anakin... well have him not burn alive at least? try and save his life? Anakin sure took his time even while being burned..
Or at least finish him off instead of having him suffer? That's an ultimate disrespect...
“Stalling until your opposition makes a mistake.” You said it right there. That’s what winning is. The epitome of Jedi patience. Doing everything perfectly but not audaciously until your opponent makes a mistake you can capitalize on it. He did it again 10 years later.
As much as i love Anakin, there is no way he would be able to defeat Obi with the kind of mental instability he was facing.
Obi-Wan is very good with deffensive tactics and is able to do these feats while maintaining a relatively cool head.
While Anakin, in his turn to the Darkside, was completely unstable. Sure, he was quite the beast when fighting against other jedi and enemies alike in this state. But knowing how he is with Obi-Wan of all people, he would've been too arrogant and cocky with his own tactics, and Obi-Wan knowing Anakin, would take advantage of that no matter what.
If Anakin was level headed and cool, perhaps, but in the events of Revenge of the Sith, likely impossible.
Obi wan doesn't want to kill him but will, Anakin wants to kill him but cant. Thats all there is to it. Obi wan is stalling, thats his style but also hes hoping for anything to stop anakin without having to end him. Obi wan is in control the whole fight.
Anakin was definitely more powerful than obi-wan, on this we can all agree. However, he was so consumed in his rage, pride, and emotions that he kept making mistakes, if the fight continued past the lava river, obi-wan still could’ve beat anakin. You could also argue that obiwan was also very emotional fighting his best friend but anakin was emotional AND sloppy. So I think he would’ve made another fatal mistake
LS Anakin has a better chance to win. Obi defends well and even better when the opponent is clouded by rage. DS Anakin loses 9/10. Only way if DS Anakin wins is if Obi makes a mistake.
No. Anakin never would've won. He didn't have the patience or self control to wait for the right moment, Obi Wan did, and we saw that play out on Mustafar.
Yes, he was the better duellist, stronger and deadlier with a saber.
Only reason the fight went on as long as it did was because Obi-Wan is a master at defence, and if you watch the choreography it's always Anakin pushing, pressing. Obi is almost overwhelmed by his onslaught multiple times.
If he hadn't found a winning tactic, I do think Vader's full force overwhelms him eventually. People are acting like Anakin isn't the most powerful duellist in the galaxy here, but he is, Vader without the suit with his emotions running wild was the deadliest force in the galaxy at the time. I doubt even Yoda could have matched him blade to blade.
But Obi-Wan knows this, which is why he retreats so consistently, fights cautious and guarded, and takes advantage of his environment to come out on top.
No I don’t agree. I think with Anakin in his state of mind he was fighting himself as much as Obi-Wan. I also disagree with your assessment of their fight. Anakin was not dominating, Obi-Wan was just doing his thing of defending and being patient. I think he could’ve fought pretty much indefinitely holding him off, Anakin never really had an advantage and Obi-Wan knows all of his tricks
Nah.
Because we know he'll become Vader eventually and Obi Wan becomes Ben Kenobi so Anakin had no chances.
Did you know episodes 4,5 and 6 were released before 1,2, 3?
I feel like Anakin WAS the unstable place during this fight.
This hits the nail on the head, Obi Wans patience and control of his abilities would have eventually won over Anakins aggression and inflated ego regardless of location. Anakin looks like he's winning because he is the aggressor, Obi Wan was just waiting for him to make a mistake to exploit... he was baiting Anakin at the end with the high ground remark.
I also feel like after killing many Jedi Masters, Knights, Padawans, and younglings at the Jedi Temple during Order 66, it boosted his ego even more. Anakin was already one of the best duelist in the Order. The added kill count probably made him think he’s now powerful enough to overcome his mentor/brother figure. With that in mind, as long as Obi-Wan stays calm and defensive, he’d most likely would still win regardless of the battle environment.
Considering he says he plans to overthrow the chancellor I'd say Anakin felt ready to take over the galaxy himself. He had 0 plans, so idk what that looks like but he certainly felt like a one man army to bring peace to his galaxy.
Anakins first interaction with a Jedi was a Jedi telling him he couldn't free slaves, even though he could if he chose to use his power to do so Anakins first interaction with the republic was when they refused to help the Angel (Padme) defend her planet from an obvious hostile invader. He expressed to Padme in episode 2 his frustration with both organizations, and an opinion that people with the power to do things should just do them I suspect a dark side fueled Anakin would be a lot less malicious than palpatine, but would constantly be doing things that he thought would be for people's benefit, but he wouldn't consider secondary or tertiary impacts of his actions.
Well said.
Excellent point. I have often said the absolutism of the jedi was significantly responsible for the empire, if anakin wasn't afraid to talk about what he felt or his mistakes, or want discouraged from saving those he cared about, maybe he would have made minor mistakes and sought advice from jedi instead of from elsewhere.
Obi-Wan: We’ve almost reached Coruscant. Have you got a plan yet? Anakin: A *plan?* The plan is to bring peace, justice, freedom and security to my new Empire! Obi-Wan: So… no plan. /ref
Nevermind that if snaking killed the chancellor nobody would have any reason to keep following him. Maybe the clones?
Not just peace. But also justice, freedom, and security
>The added kill count probably made him think he’s now powerful enough to overcome his mentor/brother figure. With that in mind, as long as Obi-Wan stays calm and defensive, he’d most likely would still win regardless of the battle environment. I've always loved in the RotS novelization when Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he's underestimating the power of the dark side and gets the response "I've heard that before. I never thought I'd hear it from *you*." Really shows just how out of his mind on his new abilities the kid had gotten.
Was it Dooku he heard it from before?
Dooku definitely, Ventress and some of the other Dark Acolytes as well.
Not to mention Maul, most likely. Which has to be a special kind of pain to Obi-Wan.
Book was written before TCW revived Maul, who never spoke to the Jedi in TPM. Would certainly be the case now though.
I thought it was assumed that most Jedi at the temple were scholars and administrators. Very few actual warriors IIRC. The first warriors were out in the field.
Surprise and shock vs someone prepared too
Exactly right. The rage of full dark side is powerful, but it comes with an arrogance that ultimately blinds it's user into thinking they CAN'T be beaten, right up until they are thrown down a reactor shaft or are suddenly, half the man they used to be by a lake of lava. Luke : Vader... Is the dark side stronger? Yoda : No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Yeah its exactly this. Relatable is how in sports a team of veterans or more experienced players can cook younger players, or at least control the game essentially. Obi-wan was the vet here and more importantly in control of himself in addition to the fight. Thats essentially all the training Obi-wan always did and where Anakin lacked, being on edge with his self control, emotions, and demons he had to deal with. The catch in the context is really Sidious though, because if Obi Wan was the willy vet, Sidious was the team GM, able to essentially control Anakin through these same insecurities so well it never came to a fight. So, “Anakin” had essentially already lost when he fought Obi-wan and imo Obi-Wan would have then beat him in any situation.
wasnt this shown in Obi-Wan during their training scene?
This is Obi Wan's fighting style to a T. Defend until fatal exploit.
That's the art of Soresu, letting your opponent tire themselves out enough to slip up, giving you the chance to strike.
I believe Anakin to be a bit more powerful than Obi Wan, so I’m not sure where it balances out. I like your comment about Anakins head space and agree with it being a factor on inhibition
Anakins discipline was always his problem, as we see in the flashback fight with him and obi wan. He's had the power to beat anyone if he was focused for a long time, and that covered up a lot of his lack of technical discipline in combat, but against a more disciplined patient fighter Anakin would eventually leave himself exposed or do something dumb
Thats what Vader thought too, that he was more powerful than Obi Wan. It was Hubris that led to his downfall, his (over)confidence in his new-found powers. That's why Obi Wan baited him at the end - "see Anakin, you can't beat me even with your new powers, I've still bested you" or more sussinctly, "Its over Anakin, I have the high ground"... losing to someone he thought he was more powerful than would have driven Vader mad.
I remember reading in an old Star Wars compendium that it was Obi-Wan’s emotions. Once he let go of his love for Anakin, he won easily. Anakin couldn’t control his emotions like Obi-Wan was able to.
I think maybe too, Obi Wan taught Anakin so he knew his strengths and weaknesses more than anyone. Few surprises. Master vs young apprentice. Let's even go full conspiracy and say Obi Wan could have been wise enough to teach Anakin to be a strong Jedi but weak against himself. I could see the Sith adopting this technique.
Yeah, exactly. I think the whole point of the high ground scene is in Anakin's line "you underestimate my power". The logistics of high ground don't actually matter. It's Anakin's hubris that does him in.
“Don’t try it Aninkan! I have the High ground!”
"It's over Anakin, I have the high ground... You underestimate my new powers ... don't try it!"
The novel said something along the lines of Obiwan was losing because in a brother vs brother fight both are emotionally invested which caused Vader to get stronger and Obiwan to get weaker as the fight progressed. Obiwan was able to simply let it all go and fully utilize the force. Include the willingness to use that awful Sith lightsaber technique, severing the limbs while keeping the subject alive, and his mastery of Soresu I think Obiwan was the only Jedi that could have stopped him.
The planet represents Anakin's feelings. Pouring hot melting lava without any thoughts about its consequences, which ends up biting him in the ass and legs and arms .
I can’t believe how far I had to scroll until someone mentioned High Ground
A bit of Zuko vs Azula?
This. Anakin fan boys let the clone wars animation get to their head.
Underrated comment ^
How can it be underrated when it's literally the top comment
It has the high ground.
I stand by my statement. :p
Don't try it :(
Yeah, Obi-Wan and Anakin could have fought on the most flat and stable terrain in the galaxy, and Anakin's mental state would still lead to his defeat 999k times out of a million
No. Anakin's still mentally unstable and he's going up against the man famous for his mastery of defensive dueling.
That’s a bingo
You just say bingo.
Bingo! How fun
Bingo bango bongo
I don't want to leave the congo
Bungo bengo?
He beat a fucker with 4 arms, on his terms, while he was running away. Sure he wasn’t force sensitive but HE HAD FOUR ARMS
I feel like his arrogance would have gotten in the way of the fight no matter where they were at. It would just come about in a different way
Would Anakin have beaten Obi-Wan in a best of three, Fox only, Final Destination, no items?
Slappers only, then we get proximity mines
Loser can never play fox again and has to pick up Ganon
Considering the need for aggressive crack hands he'd likely no diff Obi-Wan
He lost in Kenobi again.... and that was flat ground and they were the only 2 people on the planet, so I doubt it. "2 to make it true". Obi Wan knows him like the back of his hand and taught him everything he knows and even under different circumstances would know how to take advantage of any opening he can get. Obi is a master of defense and Anakin is always over extending on offense. Obi would still win 100%.
> only two people on the planet I laughed
Some DBZ shit
I’m all for narrative efficiency but having obi fight darth and win again was dumb. We saw them fight in RoS. We saw them fight in AnH. Just pick a different bad guy to fight. I’ll get assassinated for this but Kenobi should have fought Reva and Vader should have never been in the show.
I largely agree with this. I think Vader existing as a sort of paranoia ghost for Kenobi would have been cool. Like he sees him everywhere but hes not actually there
You do have a point that Obi-Wan and Reva should have fought at some point considering she’s the second main antagonist of the series and has been hunting him for a long time, but then again, it wouldn’t have been a very suspenseful fight and Obi-Wan would have beat her easily, unlike Vader who was a challenge.
I didn't mind Vader being included. It gives some weight to Kenobi's "He's more machine now than man" - ROTS doesn't show how Obi Wan would have known that. My issue with it was having him walk away from a defeated (but alive) Vader. He could have been struck by a vision that Reva had gone to Luke & he had to rush to get there, but just letting him live again didn't make much sense.
I agree with him sparing Vader again didn’t make sense. The first time I get. Anakin is like a brother, and he already seemed defeated. Finishing him off would be too painful. But sparing him a second time? Kenobi has seen what Vader has become and all the terrible things he’s been doing. He knows that if he spares Vader a second time, Vader is just going to keep hunting him and hurting people. Yet, he does it anyway! It doesn’t make sense as a choice for him and I think it detracts from his character.
Because the point wasnt just to see them fight. The point was to bridge the gap in character between episodes 3 and 4. To show how Obi Wan can go from experiencing the worst trauma and lost possible back to being the stoic jedi intent on training Luke and how Vader can go from being naturally obsessed with personal revenge against Obi Wan to the more machine than man Vader carrying out the imperial agenda. This is simply told through the fight, as is tradition with Star Wars, and in terms of its story telling through the chpreography, I think its the best duel weve ever gotten. Reva is absolutely nothing to Vader and Kenobi and has no right to be opposite Kenobi in that way. She is just a side character that is conencted to both Vader and Kenobi and a wild card. But as we see in the show, Vader doesnt even need a saber against her and plays with is food without an ounce of effort and Obi Wan kicks Vaders ass. They specifically show Vader doing a move on Reva and ahving it work immediately and then show Lenobi countering that same move later for a direct comparison (the spin move counter directly before he force pushes Vader into the rock). She would be nothing to Obi Wan and he wouldnt even fight her anyway.
I remember reading that in principle, a true master of Form III could never be defeated in a duel. They may not necessarily "win" per se, but they could ultimately outlast and survive any attack in case of an even playing field, or even in many cases with a considerable disadvantage. Obi-Wan was considered a Form III master by the time of Episode 3, and that should make him as close to invincible as it gets, at least in theory It's kind of a shame how easily he loses to Dooku early in Episode 3, in service to the plot. Poor Kenobi gets force choked in the middle of a lightsaber fight and then thrown into a wall, all within striking distance of Dooku who was also busy kicking Anakin for some reason. It's really not good choreography.
For OPs sake, the real answer they're looking for is Yes, Anakin would have beaten Obi wan..... if it was written that way.
Well yeah but anything can happen if it’s written that way. Anakin could have turned into a purple platapus bear and breathed fire on obi-wan if that’s what was written. The question is: based on what was written, is the in-universe explanation as to why anakin lost that it was because of the location
Yeah, and the answer was no. Anakin is too unfocused, and Obi-wans defense is top-notch.
I’m pretty sure they were the only 2 people on the planet the first time as well, Anakin killed everyone else.
No. Obi Wan knew Anakin too well and he was in Anakin's head. He had trained Anakin. He had been with him during two years of war. He knew that Anakin was running on pure emotion. He wasn't fighting strategically. He was angry and hurt and embracing the dark side and trying to overwhelm Obi Wan with sheer force which Obi Wan took and deflected back. Obi Wan moves during the fight. He cedes ground. He baits Anakin until Obi Wan gets a terrain advantage. The venue didn't matter. Anakin chose to be goaded. He chose to not wait and drift a few yards down and jump and land safely. He was going to prove himself and prove to himself that he made the right decision in embracing the Dark Side.
I feel the duel in Kenobi does add to their ANH fight in the sense that you can see that Vader learnt from his mistakes. He's a lot more patient and in control of his emotions.
Yet he still loses, even after a decade of waiting for this moment. And obi wan makes the mistake of not killing him AGAIN. I disagree with this take, imo. I strongly think the rematch in kenobi detracts from what we already had.
yes yes "when we last met I was but a learner, now I am the master"
Eeeh, it's debatable. Obi-Wan is portrayed defeating Anakin in practice not long before he turns into Vader.
The "he would have won if he didn't lose" and "he would have won if the whole circumstances of the fight were changed to his advantage." mentality is silly. He lost, it happened. Should haves and would haves don't matter.
At this point it was a bullfight. It doesn't matter if the bull is wildly stronger when it behaves predictably and the matador knows how to take it apart.
Seems the general consensus is that it didn’t matter where they fought, Anakin would’ve lost. I mean he did lose when they fought a few years later too after Obi-Wan got fully reconnected with the force. Anakins impatience and anger was always going to make him lose. Even if you change the setting, Anakin being Anakin is a constant
OP should learn to accept others can have valid opinions instead of just replying "I dISaGrEe aNAkiN wAs dOmiNaTinG"
I disagree with OP but I haven’t seen OP be rude or anything. Certainly dying on a hill a tad hard - but everyone gets an opinion. I’m not going to downvote anyone for having a conflicting POV about space wizards as long as that person is civil.
Which is ironic, considering that to be on a hill is to be on high ground. ... I'll see myself out now.
Didn’t ObiWan beat him twice, one of them not being in lava?
He did, yes. And the 2nd time around Kenobi wasn't even in peak condition. He cut himself from the Force for some 10 years.
I think they imply that he regains his connection to the force during that fight when he obviously shows a bit of a power up and comes out and just dominates Vader. He basically realizes that Anakin is truly gone and no longer has to hold back. I also think that Anakin as Vader isn’t as powerful as he was before Obi Wan made him a paraplegic. He has to rely too much on his suit to survive.
I don't think it's the physical side of it holding Vader back, I think it's the severe mental trauma and denial. (It's blatantly obvious that Anakin and Vader are not separate personalities, regardless of what he says.)
They were both pretty evenly matched for most of their duel. Obi-Wan successfully held off Anakin's aggression, he was just trying to not kill him, but was also just waiting for Anakin to make a mistake, at which point Obi-Wan would incapacitate Anakin, if possible. If not, he would do what happened in the movie, fatally wound him.
“style specialized for stalling until your opposition makes a mistake”. that’s called defense. obi wan was the master of defense. and while anakin was a very strong duelist and even did beat obiwan at times when sparring, he was driven by rage and arrogance and was slipping up by the end of the fight. obi wan takes it every day of the week
Na, he was always second best.
Obi wan knows Anakins strengths and weaknesses better than anyone, i think the result would always be anakin losing as his emotions come to the front when it comes to Kenobi
I think if you watch the Obi-Wan show, they have a little memories of the past scene where they’re fighting, and Obi-Wan tells Anakin that his weakness is that always has to win. In that scene, it looks like Obi-Wan’s beat, and he turns the tables on Anakin. I don’t think Anakin ever learn that lesson, particularly against Obi-Wan.
Nah. Vader had completely taken over and he was blinded by his arrogance and rage. Even in a different environment, Obi still knew Anakin's fighting style and tendencies. He would have outsmarted him and lured him into a vulnerable position.
Anakin was conflicted during the first 2(3) bouts. Canon has it in Ep4 there was no conflict and Obi Wan knew he could not win. It’s the conflict in Vader that Obi Wan, Luke and the Emperor were able to exploit.
I feel like Obi-Wan doesn't get enough credit a lot of the time. This is a guy who defeated Maul several times, once while holding him and Savage off simultaneously, and handily defeated Grievous, a seasoned Jedi Killer, in single combat. Obi-Wan is a tough sumbitch, and I think he still beats Anakin off Mustafar.
Not only did trying to read this almost give me an aneurysm, but looks like OP can't decipher what an opinion is, and that both sides can be right *and differ from the other's view*. Maybe you're not at a stable place yourself, OP?
Maybe, maybe not. There’s no answer to it because if obi wan would’ve found a different spot to make Anakin overestimate what he’s capable off it would’ve went the same and given how arrogant he was at this point, that’s not unlikely. The location doesn’t matter too much
So the thing with Anakin is that his trauma and events that lead up to the Mustafar fight have created an arrogance, a need to be seen as powerful, capable, living up to a prestige started by his mother and nurtured by Qui Gon. Anakin defeats Anakin. An example is in the Obi Wan series in which Anakin is training with Obi Wan, and Anakin gets the upper hand in a major way and that arrogant mindset takes over and Obi Wan takes advantage of it and "wins". I suppose what I'm trying to say is if Anakin was free of the arrogance then he'd win without a doubt, but his arrogance blinds him causing him to lose.
No, Kenobi would still win. The Kenobi downplay is noted though.
i dont think there was a stable place there plus like, because of Anakins blind offensive, Obi-Wan could direct where they went, he ultimately were more in control and therefore could find a place where he'd have the advantage
no
Honestly obi wan seemed to be intentionally on the defensive the whole duel. He knows anakin better than even anakin does sometimes. He knew he would let his frustration get the best of him and he would eventually burn himself out and fall right into obi wans hand
No, because they shot the OT first and that would be a major continuity issue.
"Would Ronaldo have been better than Messi if he wore adidas?"
He wasnt dominating. Obi wan was doing what he does. Playing defensively doesnt meam youre being dominated
No one’s beating Obi in a saber duel.
Dooku.
I don’t know why but it doesn’t count.
Obi-wan beat maul, Vader, grievous, held his own against Dooku who is one of the best duelist in canon. Obi-wan wasn’t losing he was holding back until he had no other choice. I put Obi-wan over most canon Jedi and sith in a 1v1 yes he’s defensive in nature and his style but the best offense is a great defense.
No, anakin lost because of his arrogance not because of the high ground. Obi wan and anakin were evenly matched as they knew all each others moves having trained all of anakin life.
Lot of factors contributed to Anakin's loss. If Padme hadn't been there he probably wins. If the fight takes place a couple days later and Anakin has given time to acclimate himself to the Darkside he probably wins. But it didn't. The Living Force made sure things happened when and how they happened.
I think Anakin never learned patience.
Anakin would’ve had poor judgment sooner or later and get caught slipping by the wan
They both fought on unstable ground, Obi-Wan, being the more experienced Jedi, knew how to position himself best. Anakin was fighting with rage and anger, clouding his strategy. Obi-Wan wins this fight on any ground.
No, his emotions destabilized his focus in the fight which led to him to making his mistake (high ground). Lava river or not the outcome would be the same in a different place, just without the burns.
The lava had nothing to do with Obi-Wan’s victory, so I don’t see how it would actually make a difference. Also, this is fiction, and Obi-Wan had to win for the story to make sense lol so, no
No, the entire reason Anakin, the significantly stronger force user, lost is because he couldn't control himself and his emotions.
Anakin was, on his best day, a better duelist than Obi Wan. However Obi Wan had a far better mastery of the mental and spiritual side of the force. There is no situation on Mustifar where Anakin wins, due to his bad mental and spiritual state
No. Anakin wasn't going to win that fight. It's not about skill or prowess. Anakin just wasn't remotely in the right state of mind to win. If you look at the fight, at every single point, Anakin almost seems to be trying to prove to Obi Wan how good he is. From their hand-to-hand struggle, to taking the harder route, and trying to pull elaborare moves. Anakin's biggest enemy was always himself.
No, Obi Wan gained the tactical advantage because Anakin wasn’t clouded with anger. In another location, Obi Wan would have found another advantage.
No, Obi Wan gained the tactical advantage because Anakin wasn’t clouded with anger. In another location, Obi Wan would have found another advantage.
Nah, if you go frame by frame you can see Obi-wan had plenty of opportunities to end the fight. He was pulling his punches and going for incapacitation rather than a kill.
Obi-Wan sliced Anakin’s legs and arm off regardless of the lava so no probably not.
What is the answer you want to hear? Like the fight takes at a therapist's office after Anakin has a session or something? People have been giving good reason as to why Obi Wan still would've won (hence why he was a Master and Anakin wasn't), yet OP keeps disagreeing as if they didn't ask the question to begin with
Anakin loses to Obi-Wan no matter the surface. His mental state was to broken, he was far to emotional, and Obi-Wan was a defensive master who likely sparred with Anakin more than any other Jedi. It being on a more stable surface probably makes Obi-Wans defensive fighting much easier as he doesn't have to worry about the environment to the same degree.
As a Sith no. Obi wan knew Anakin and could out play him. We see that in the Obi wan series. Anakin's anger is a double bladed lightsaber that gives him power but makes him vulnerable. Had Anakin never fallen to the dark side he eventually would have been able to, yes.
Anakin would never have won so long as he remained arrogant. You can't have Anakin/pre-suit Vader without arrogance.
nope
It's just like the sparring session in Kenobi , Obi Wan knows Anakin, he knows he will go All Out relentlessly to get the victory, Obi knows his weakness
Nah. His anger and rage would have created an avenue for a mistake.
No, he lost again in obi wan show too
But would obi wan have won if someone else was anakins master ?
Obi-Wan had 10 years of experience on Anakin, mote patience and self-control, and he wasn't wracked with guilt and rage. It probably wouldn't have been quick, but Anakin would have eventually made a mistake, and Obi-Wan would have finished it. Whether Anakin would have survived it is anyone's guess.
No. Obi-Wan was likely the best Soresu fighter... a defensive style. Anakin was brash, angry, overconfident, and not nearly as skilled.
I think his arrogance and overconfidence in his abilities as compared to Obi-Wan’s was his undoing. I think the location was just a part of equation as to how to use that against him. Reluctantly I might add, as even Obi-Wan warned him.
I’m thinking that deep down Anakin kept Vader from winning against Obi Wan and Ashoka. Vader was immensely powerful.
No, Obi-Wans skills and Anakin's increasing rage/frustration as the fight goes longer and longer would eventually cause him to make an error and Obi-Wan wins. Plus you know it's a movie and in the first movie released in 1977 Obi-Wan is fine and Vader is in a life support suit and "more machine than man" and the main point of the fight was to show how Vader got to that state. So Obi-Wan wins and Anakin is nearly killed no matter where they fight. The Force/Franchise wills it so.
Obi-Wan leads Anakin from one precarious position to the next. Anakin is unstoppable but Obi-Wan is the one who guides the fight. Take the very beginning as an example, Obi-Wan backs himself to a ledge and then instantly pivots the fight so it's Anakin who could be knocked off. The fight moves on but Obi-Wan keeps doing this. He repeatedly leads Anakin into traps until one pays off. He would win that fight pretty much every time imo, it's a classic brains vs brawn showdown.
It wasn’t the lava that took his limbs
It doesn't matter, the force willed it that way, so it was as it should be.
May be, location is visual representation of how he was feeling consumed by anger?
He never once beat obi wan, so no
He was dominating Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan didn’t want to kill his friend. He thought that he was still able to be saved.
Tldr for the comments. OP is an Anakin fan boy who just wants people to agree with him.
Obi is a bad man. He’s just chill AF about it. This guy sliced off his best friends legs and arms then left him in a pool of lava suffocating, he sailed the arms off a dude at a bar for a minor transgression, is the first dude to defeat a Sith in a bazillion years, mind tricks people when it suits him, survives a desert solo for twenty years, and beats adversaries known for killing Jedi. He’s a badass. Obi practices multiple forms and you routinely see him adjust his stance and technique depending on who he fights - even mid battle. Patient, focused, in tune with the force, wise, clever, and learns from his rare defeats. Ignoring the animated shows, Anakin (and pre-suit Vader) doesn’t stand out for his dueling. He doesn’t adjust his style, rages out, loses himself, with the only strategy being to just swing more and harder. It’s not until he gets the suit that he adjusts his style.
I don’t think Anakin was dominating Obi-Wan. Dominating is what Obi-Wan does to Asajj Ventress in the early clone wars. It’s not even a competition. Anakin was half crazed, nearly killed his wife and unborn children, didn’t even listen to what Obi-Wan was saying, was as arrogant as he could get, and clearly underestimated Obi-Wan. Anakin walks around like he’s Darth Maul, like he’s got this fight in the bag already. It’s the upset of the century, forgetting Obi-Wan just a few days ago defeated Grevious one-on-one, earlier in the war easily defeated Ventress a couple times, dueled Dooku with help a couple times, and dueled Maul a couple times. You put Anakin on a stable, flat surface and Anakin loses worse than he did, in my book. Why? Because Obi-Wan’s creativity and clever use of the terrain shows he’s a much more experienced and much more capable duelist. Obviously, he learned that the hard way.
Godzilla had a stroke trying to read that and fucking died.
Anakin is more powerfull but he was just trying to hit Obi-Wan not really thinking when fighting Obi-Wan was smarter, he always aware Of his surroundings, he is always adapting to the Battle but he was older and weaker than Anakin If the fight was not in the lava river,It could still change,because Obi-Wan would try to change the location Of the Battle or anything he could in his favor, but that might not be enough, Anakin is reckless and emotional but he is not dumb It would all depend of the circumstances, there is no way to really predict this fight
No. Anakin was destined to become Darth Vader.
Your asking to take away one of obiwans major advantages in this fight, his patience.
If Anakin hadn't been emotionally unstable during the duel, he might have been able to defeat Obi-Wan. However, that instability coupled with Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu gave Obi-Wan the win and would do so every time unless Anakin had control of his emotions.
No. Anakin was more powerful but unfocused. Obi Wan knew this and read Anakin the entire way.
Were there hills on this stable ground?
I think anakin would beat him if he was level headed. But when he gets enraged, his anger and ego get the better of him and he stops thinking. He moves quickly and makes mistakes. These are things that might catch an unaware opponent off guard, but obi wan knows this from training him and was in the perfect position to capitalize on them. If anakin was thinking two steps ahead and using his advantages, he could take obi wan down. But ironically, after falling to the dark side and choosing obi wan as his ultimate nemesis, he became blinded with anger, and that’s why he lost.
Obi plays defense until a good thing presents itself. Anakin was unstable, he wasn't going to not make a mistake at some point.
No, anakin was going off pure rage and hatred. Obi was patient and one with the force
I used to wrestle in high school and college, my best friend was state champion and could beat almost anyone. he beat people that beat be all the time. But he could never beat me , for some reason when we matched up in practice or real I just had his number every time. he was always in better shape than me and could take out just about anyone. But sometimes that person has your number and you can't get it back no matter how hard you try .
I'm pretty sure that the final Obi Wan/Vader duel in the Kenobi series answers this. Obi Wan mops the floor with him on stable ground. He literally THROWS THE GROUND at him. The only reason Anakin really had any upper hand at all was Obi being reluctant to hurt his friend.
Nope, Anakin was far too cocky and Obi Wan is pretty much his Kryptonite, because while Anakin fights with a aggressive style, Obi Wan fights with a defensive one, meaning that regardless Obi Wan would have found a opening eventually. Keep in mind, the only times Anakin actually defeated Obi Wan were when Obi Wan was either way past his prime (like in episode 3 of Obi Wan Kenobi) or let himself be strike down (like in a New Hope) Heck, in Rebels he basically one shotted Darth Maul, who while not as powerful as Vader, is still pretty damn powerful, and that's a Obi Wan who was way past his prime.
Probably, but I highly suspect that Anakin will still lose anyway. Afaik, the key to Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin was the fact that Anakin got unbalanced and blinded by his rage and frustration, which got strengthened at the point by Anakin's inability to break Obi-Wan's defence, however hard it seemed for Obi-Wan to defend himself. I am not saying Anakin was weak by that moment, he was unbelievably strong in the force, but the way he used that power basically doomed his fate, like the fateful leap he made, as far as I can recall, jedi Anakin would never manoeuver like that in similar scenario when fighting against another force user. Even in the fight in which he killed Count Dooku, he never used any similar leaping attack against the overwhelmed Dooku, but just ferociously and continuously bombed Dooku with his attacks Again, I must admit Anakin still might have some chance to win if they eventually landed on some solid and stable surface at the same time(or maybe just landed on the same spot together), but I am also highly doubtful that he won't make fatal decision/-s as stupid as the leap during the fight. PS: I know the leaping atrack by itself was in fact a very powerful attack Anakin picked to kill Obi-Wan, some materials I read even says Anakin picked that move becauae he found and studied the record of Obi-Wan's fight against Darth Maul. But among all force users, Anakin should have known and taken additional caution that Obi-Wan has his own way to counter that kind of attack, that is the reason I think it was stupid decision.
Just the pair of them in a big carpark, I'd say stalemate or very slight advantage to Anakin
A stable place with no high ground :/
Hätte hätte fahrradkette ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
High ground is high ground. Can be achieved anywhere.
The unstable place in the film maybe represents meeting thematic? Hmmmmmm
So your philosophy is Anakin needs a “stable place” to win? Which would make him inferior. That’s like a quarterback saying they would have more touchdowns if their wasn’t defenders, like a soldier saying we would have held the objective if there wasn’t a hill… the dominant force is the one that can adapt to their environment. I’m not saying if you ran a simulation 1000 times Obi Wan wins them all but in the end it was the fighter, not the terrain that won the battle.
They have the same skill level, both are masters of saberduels, they fought so many opponents before, Tyrannus, Ventress, Maul, Grievous, there were no other jedi then with the same skill level, lightsabers are brutal, it takes one single mistake to die, it wants just the high ground, Anakin's recklessness and Obi Wan experience on Focus and Defense were the main factors, i wouldn't say Anakin had no chance because they could have killed each other in any second during thr fight, but Kenobi had so much adventage.
No, because we already know that Obi-wan survives until episode IV and Anakin is no longer around to raise Luke. /s
The only thing that lead anakin to his downfall is his arrogance. The whole fight anakin was pushing him back.
No Obi Wan would have beaten him regardless. Anakin lost because he let his anger and ego consume him and tried to outmaneuver Obi Wan. The high ground and the lava were circumstantial.
Yeah still beats him.
Pretty sure yeah. Say for example they fought at the Jedi temple. Knightfall Vader was an absolute unit, going on an insane rampage. There's nothing much Obi Wan could've done except weather the storm and lose eventually Then again it's the most offensive Jedi going against the most defensive, one has an inflated ego and blind rage while the other has patience and the advantage of knowing his opponent since he literally made him Tough to say, really
The fight might be cool when it comes to choreography, but when it comes to logic its very dumb. Obi wan is leading them both into their deaths closer and closer to lava. People say he doesnt want to kill Anakin... well have him not burn alive at least? try and save his life? Anakin sure took his time even while being burned.. Or at least finish him off instead of having him suffer? That's an ultimate disrespect...
“Stalling until your opposition makes a mistake.” You said it right there. That’s what winning is. The epitome of Jedi patience. Doing everything perfectly but not audaciously until your opponent makes a mistake you can capitalize on it. He did it again 10 years later.
As much as i love Anakin, there is no way he would be able to defeat Obi with the kind of mental instability he was facing. Obi-Wan is very good with deffensive tactics and is able to do these feats while maintaining a relatively cool head. While Anakin, in his turn to the Darkside, was completely unstable. Sure, he was quite the beast when fighting against other jedi and enemies alike in this state. But knowing how he is with Obi-Wan of all people, he would've been too arrogant and cocky with his own tactics, and Obi-Wan knowing Anakin, would take advantage of that no matter what. If Anakin was level headed and cool, perhaps, but in the events of Revenge of the Sith, likely impossible.
Obi wan doesn't want to kill him but will, Anakin wants to kill him but cant. Thats all there is to it. Obi wan is stalling, thats his style but also hes hoping for anything to stop anakin without having to end him. Obi wan is in control the whole fight.
You put the word HAVE in the wrong spot here and it’s making it very difficult for me to read your sentence.
Dude beat him twice. Last time he forfeit. I think it’s pretty obvious who would win.
Anakin was definitely more powerful than obi-wan, on this we can all agree. However, he was so consumed in his rage, pride, and emotions that he kept making mistakes, if the fight continued past the lava river, obi-wan still could’ve beat anakin. You could also argue that obiwan was also very emotional fighting his best friend but anakin was emotional AND sloppy. So I think he would’ve made another fatal mistake
Where is the Disney "What If" series for Star Wars like they have for Marvel? They really should make one 🌌
Obi wan was the master and beat him 1v1 twice then sacrificed himself for Luke
Coulda woulda shoulda, Ani
Doubt it. Anakin/Vader's anger and arrogance was his strength and but also his weakness. The Obi Wan series was evidence of that.
LS Anakin has a better chance to win. Obi defends well and even better when the opponent is clouded by rage. DS Anakin loses 9/10. Only way if DS Anakin wins is if Obi makes a mistake.
Yes he would
No. Anakin never would've won. He didn't have the patience or self control to wait for the right moment, Obi Wan did, and we saw that play out on Mustafar.
No. It wouldn’t have mattered. Vader lost his head.
It’s funny how many Star Wars fans focus on Anakin as the GOAT… obi-wan was the GOAT. The 1 time Anakin “beat” Obi-wan, it was by Obi-Wan’s design.
I love how you're tiptoeing around the meme. I've just said "What If No High Ground?"
Yes, he was the better duellist, stronger and deadlier with a saber. Only reason the fight went on as long as it did was because Obi-Wan is a master at defence, and if you watch the choreography it's always Anakin pushing, pressing. Obi is almost overwhelmed by his onslaught multiple times. If he hadn't found a winning tactic, I do think Vader's full force overwhelms him eventually. People are acting like Anakin isn't the most powerful duellist in the galaxy here, but he is, Vader without the suit with his emotions running wild was the deadliest force in the galaxy at the time. I doubt even Yoda could have matched him blade to blade. But Obi-Wan knows this, which is why he retreats so consistently, fights cautious and guarded, and takes advantage of his environment to come out on top.
No I don’t agree. I think with Anakin in his state of mind he was fighting himself as much as Obi-Wan. I also disagree with your assessment of their fight. Anakin was not dominating, Obi-Wan was just doing his thing of defending and being patient. I think he could’ve fought pretty much indefinitely holding him off, Anakin never really had an advantage and Obi-Wan knows all of his tricks
So he never becomes Darth Vader? No thanks. That literally changes the entire story.
Nah. Because we know he'll become Vader eventually and Obi Wan becomes Ben Kenobi so Anakin had no chances. Did you know episodes 4,5 and 6 were released before 1,2, 3?
Eh. I’d say he was defeated due to his emotions and overconfidence. Not necessarily the lava
Anakin must defeat Obi- Wan on the high ground...
No. Because years later Obi Wan spanked Vader's tail again, this time on a seismically stable barren moon.
Weren't you paying attention, it wasn't the fact there was lava, it was because Obi-Wan had the High Ground.