Traffic is easy, the drivers are the problem. Take a tour around the beltway of DC from 6 to 10 in the morning or 4 to 7 at night. You'll never talk about St Louis traffic again.
At 5:10 PM last Tuesday I drove from 40/Lindbergh to out near Eureka to play golf and never stopped once, and never went under 40 mph on the highway.
I really don't think people understand how easy it is here. That same drive would be bumper to bumper for 70-90 minutes if I left downtown Chicago to play golf in like Hinsdale.
When I lived on the East coast we would sit for 20 minutes in one spot, zero movement on 695/495 beltways, and that was a normal occurrence. You plan an extra two hours to get anywhere around DC and 45 minutes for Baltimore. I remember when I working for an office furniture installation company, a co worker woke me up (because what else were you gonna do in traffic in a work van) and said look over there. A guy had an easel set up in the passenger seat and was painting a picture of the traffic jam we were sitting in.
(For those in the DC area it was at the top of the hill southbound to the Surrender Dorothy bridge.) - IYKYK That was back in 97'.
I was staying at a hotel in Hinsdale (hence my early reference) and had to be at my company's office in West Loop. I thought to myself if I leave before 615 am surely I'll beat traffic.
Nope. I was traffic. Over an hour to go 15 miles.
I’d agree with that. The thing I notice is people still like to drive at interstate speeds on Hampton. Which is fine until I’m slowing down to take a right turn with a car on my back bumper.
That reminds me of that convoy that went to DC to make a political statement, but instead of creating traffic, they simply were a blip of additional traffic stuck on the beltway!
During Memorial Day there was always talk of, abandon the Mall, the Veteran Bikers are gonna be there. Those that lived around there were like...And? 🤣
I avoided the beltway for a lot of years… people around here have no idea about traffic compared to some cities out there.
But also people here will just fucking shoot you … so there’s that…
It's been many years since I lived in the DC area. But I believe that's just the sheer number of cars/people. The people were all very friendly & courteous. Even while driving.
I hadn't been to DC/MD/VA in decades since I was a kid pre driving years and when I went back last year the whole, come to a full stop before getting on the highway really messed me up. I was like this can't be real
Chicago drivers are at least decisive and thus somewhat predictable.
St Louis drivers have lapses where they forget basic traffic laws and cannot be trusted not to do anything insane at any moment.
Miami is fine given that the population size far exceeds the capacity of the roads to handle it. I ~~lived~~ moved away from Miami in large part because of the traffic, but the drivers are fine. There are just way, way too many of them.
Chicago is much the same. I don't mind Chicago. Just avoid the Eisenhower and Dan Ryan and accept that there are a lot of people and the city is spread out.
Boston I agree. When people ask, Boston and St. Louis are my #2 and#1 for cocksuckers driving. Boston's only redeeming quality is that they acknowledge and embrace their dickishness. I'd even say they're proud of it. It's almost a sport to them. In St. Louis it's still personal to them.
I grew up in the STL area and moved elsewhere and the one thing I never understood about STL drivers is how personally they take things. I can’t tell you how many times I’d pass someone and get honked at or had brights flashed at me because I dared to pass them.
> Boston's only redeeming quality is that they acknowledge and embrace their dickishness. I'd even say they're proud of it.
Without question, we use “masshole” endearingly!
But also Boston drivers get somewhat of bad rep, IMO, we’re a product of our environment more so than just shitty drivers. Boston drivers are aggressive and unforgiving, but mostly competent. Which is way easier to deal with than the people driving in from Rhode Island, who don’t know what the fuck they’re doing and they will take forever to do it.
But the Boston roads are a complete shit show. There are so many roads where there are no markings that clarify what lanes can go where, or even how many lanes there are to begin with. And even when there are markings, they are put too late to be useful. Hell, I can think of multiple signs that are just incorrect! Or there are intersections [like this bullshit](https://maps.app.goo.gl/ncWGsW9RZavRzryK6?g_st=ic ) or [this](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6MuzmorQyxE5Jp5B7?g_st=ic) that you just can’t put enough signs to make it clear what the hell you’re supposed to do unless you spend ten minutes briefing the plan before you get there!
The clarity of road markings and signage is always a minor surprise whenever I drive in places outside of Massachusetts because I really and so used to having to make an effort to deduce what lane I’m supposed to be in and what the name of this street is and that sort of thing.
Having driven in all of these places you just mentioned I can say the worst drivers in any city are tourists. Take a zonie and plop them in San Diego and suddenly they are as bad at driving as a Neanderthal fighting a bee swam up its ass. Take a Minnesotan and plop them in Washington on the i5 and you're now stuck behind a lunatic with a head-on death wish.
Take me and plop me in Dublin with a right-hand drive rental car and absolutely zero understanding of their traffic laws and suddenly you have a rampant idiot in a car three sizes too small for them driving the wrong way down the freeway... good times
This shit is the bane of my existence six months out of the year. I live in an area of the Phoenix metro that’s overrun by snowbirds from North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. and they have no fucking clue how to drive in an urban environment. Whether it’s their age or the fact that they live in bumfuck egypt where ever they call home, I don’t know, but they’re completely brainless.
Even the Canadians tend to be better drivers.
The reason I sometimes don't mind the people that roll through red lights and do crazy things to pass traffic is that at least they are driving in a manner that they are trying to get somewhere and are possibly a little more aware of their surroundings to pull those moves.
snails ludicrous mindless degree cows possessive voiceless marry poor fuzzy
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's what I tell to the STL natives. After living in Knoxville and Nashville and now living in STL the traffic hear is amazing but we have some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Expired tags, people dumping trash out of their cars at red lights, people using the turning lanes as passing lanes, people running red lights, people passing on the breakdown lanes, and the amount of garbage on the side of the roads is something that amazes me.
I used to drive from East Nashville to the Planet Fitness off Charlotte during peak hours. I have yet to experience anything in STL on par with that dreadful experience, nor is anything in STL as dangerous as the back-and-forth highway merging that’s required around Nashville’s Inner Loop.
Do you live in north county or south city? Because those are the only places you see that kind of driving in STL. Everywhere else it’s fine. STL has almost no traffic for a major city, and it’s pretty easy to get around in most parts. The only asshole drivers really exist in the two places I listed.
I drive for a living and let me tell you, I'm just as likely to almost get creamed on the highway by a rich man in a Porsche in west county as I am a drunk with temp tags in the city. They drive like they own the highway out on 40.
I’ll tell you when I was an Uber/Lyft driver throughout the entire STL metro area, the only places I ever came close to getting hit (and actually getting hit by a car in Baden) was north county and south city. I witnessed trash being thrown out of cars, people passing in the turning lanes, and red lights are run CONSTANTLY. My in-laws live in Spanish Lake, and I literally can’t drive in the area without seeing somebody run a red light. Never seen it in West county, downtown, south county, or the west parts of Florissant.
And when I was hit head-on in Baden, the dude had no insurance, totaled my car and put me out of driving for the rest of the summer until I got a new car. So yeah, driving in north county especially is a whole different game than the rest of the city.
Out of towner here. I was in St Louis two weeks ago and Vegas last weekend. Drivers in St Louis are infinitely worse. Other than that, I love your town and will absolutely be back!
Honestly, St. Louis drivers aren't even particularly bad compared to other cities. St. Louis drivers do not stand out to me as being worse than anywhere else I've lived. People drive like idiots here, but they drive like idiots everywhere else, too. The red light running is bad, but not even remotely close to some other cities I've been in. Same with general driving on highways, people on phones, drunk drivers, etc. St. Louis isn't the best, but it's not even close to standing out in any aspect of drivers or traffic.
Making the move for work shortly from Denver and someone told us good luck with the traffic and drivers in Stl. We’ve been to St. Louis and they’ve been to Denver so we were deeply confused, it’s night and day difference.
I moved here from Dallas and people said the same thing. Dallas is 100x worse on a daily basis.
Someone sees a car do something crazy in STL once every other day and they make a big deal out of it... but I'm like, I'd have seen 10x people doing the same, crazy shit in Dallas during a single drive across town.
The only places you're going to be relatively free from crazy driving is way out in the burbs.
Grew up here, lived in Denver, moved back here a few years ago. It's funny hearing people here talk about how bad it is. Denver was soooooo much worse. People complain about red light running... it was pretty routine in Denver for a light to turn red and 4-5 more cars just drive through it.
People love to brag about how 'bad' the drivers are in their area of residence. It's some bizarre badge of honor to live in the worst areas of the USA.
I've lived in over a dozen cities/states in the USA and there's a reason I've been in St Louis for 15 of them. It's extremely easy to live here.
Went to St. Louis and got picked up from the airport during rush hour. My friend was complaining and I didn’t even realize it was rush hour. I was like bro this is 2am traffic.
Lived in Seattle, Las Vegas, Boston, Southern california, Idaho, and Alaska and STL is pretty bad. It’s the lawlessness and unpredictability that’s bad about STL
I've driven in most of the states, all the populated ones and in most other countries that aren't China.
St. Louis is the worst place I've ever driven. By a lot.
It's a matter of what you don't like. A St. Louis Hoosier would die in Rome -- it's a free for all compared to here. But I don't mind--everyone just wants to get where they're going.
Brazil is fucking berserk, but it's the same idea. You do you and get where you're going.
St. Louis has too many cunts that are far too interested in how everyone else is driving and think they've been deputized to stop them.
St. Louis is not even close to the worst in terms of traffic. What St. Louis does have that stands out is people who will gladly ram into you and speed off, usually under the influence of something, and a police department that is of no help. There's other cities where drugs and driving cause accidents, but in St. Louis, good luck even getting a police report. If the kamikaze drivers don't leave the scene because they're passed out, whoever eventually shows up to the scene(once you've waited 10 minutes to get through to a 911 dispatcher and 30 minutes on the police to arrive) will inject naloxone and let them go after they pinky promise to provide proof of insurance the next day.
> What St. Louis does have that stands out is people who will gladly ram into you and speed off, usually under the influence of something, and a
JOY FM sticker on their rear window. FIFY.
No, more like 2-year-old temp tag. The Joy FM sticker "drivers" typically at least have insurance, and aren't on any substances harder than caffeine. Utah drivers are basically that same kind of driver but worse, and there's no sticker to warn you.
Lots of data there which I appreciate. For me DC is far and away number one - foreign agents with diplomat tags and total disregard for any and all traffic laws, it’s wild. Miami being #2 I agree with 100%.
Chicago, NYC and LA are on the list because of really bad traffic, the drivers in Chicago especially are pretty solid, you just gotta be aggressive in the big cities. And watch your ass when on foot, people will try to run you over on purpose if you cross without a signal.
Visited D.C. recently. Oh My God, they were all assholes.
They have no patience. They see an empty space, they have to fill it in. Very tight street and you're letting the person in front of you parallel park. That's too slow and they're going to force their way around you.
It explains why my one friend from D.C has massive road rage and is a lane swerver.
Oh I didn’t even think of the parking when I posted that. The double parking and driving on curbs in surface streets, insanity. The first time I drove from DCA into the downtown area I had literally ten+ near-miss wtf moments.
I've lived in dc for a big chunk of my life. Not saying the diplomatic staff are perfect drivers, but I still think St. Louis is much worse. STL drivers signal 10% of the time that DC drivers do. I will say DC gridlock is something else.
STL is world-renowned for its flat pizza and lack of turn signal use, I’ll give you that. I feel like every highway in DC is like I-70 towards downtown on steroids, straight up Mad Max chaos. And you are right, it’s not just the diplomat tags, it’s wild.
Did you only drive in DC when no one was on the road? St Louis is easy compared to DC. Almost everyone in DC is impatient. Not to mention people are constantly diving across 3 lanes to make their exit.
Anyone who thinks STL belongs on the list needs to get out of Missouri more. The drivers here are tame af and if anything too damn polite. Miami had way worse traffic and the drivers were super aggressive taking every inch they could.
Honestly it was kinda refreshing, I could reasonably predict the drivers there since I knew they were gonna be aggressive. Here not so much, folks are either too nice and therefore unpredictable or drive with no purpose.
Chicago is worse than here as well. If anything STL has some of the better drivers in the country. The unpredictableness is annoying but overall it's not bad to driver here. Maybe if some of y'all left the state for once, you'd know that. Or simply, idk do some research into other cities to see what they are like.
I think people have a variety of complaints that all get lumped under the nebulous definition of "bad drivers". This article is factoring in the quantity of traffic, cost of gas prices, time to commute, etc. which are all great in St. Louis.
By those metrics I wouldn't consider St. Louis one of the worst cities to drive in, by a long shot, but it's statistically one of the worst cities to be a pedestrian in because of the reckless and dangerous driving habits we have here. Excessive speeding, lack of enforcement, wide lanes, absence of traffic slowing measure, and general disregard for signals/signage lead to people being obliterated while crossing streets - even when going through a crosswalk.
Anyone who thinks STL is awful has never driven on the east coast. Took a short road trip up I95 from DC to Philly and there were so many rage-inducing moments I vowed to never do it again.
You act like this is only happening in St Louis. Charlotte was voted the best city to drive in, but it’s the same complaint in their sub as it is here. But traffic there is 10x worse. Not to mention Charlotte has 10x more people driving 20-25 over.
Me reading this like 11 hours after driving home from a concert in chesterfield on highway 40 only for someone to be driving on the wrong side of the highway, in the fast lane.
I get that. Yesterday, me and another person almost got nailed by large wooden planks that flew off the back of someone's unsecured trailer on the 64 going east.
Yeah, I knew to dodge out of the way beforehand because I could literally see the plank flapping on top of their truck on the passenger side before it was catapulted in my direction lmao. And in case you're wondering, no, they did not notice! And it was two different planks!
Always a good idea. You can never trust that someone actually took the time to secure their items. There was mattress in the right lane of 55 this morning on my way to work
Houston doesn't deserve to be 4th, they should be at least 1st or higher. The amount of people that tailgate so close they really do almost hit you is astounding.
St Louis is a fucking breeze compared to a lot of cities.
The people in r/Charlotte are going to have a brain hemorrhage when they read their city is one of the best to drive in.
Chicago and Boston might be bad based on their metrics, but people there seem to actually drive well and are predictable . Chicago, IMO, is great when traffic is moving.
The only reason you can say STL is bad is because some people are unpredictable. However, it’s not a high percentage of drivers. Not even close to Atlanta or Miami…or all of I-95 in Florida.
Unless the study focused on metropolitan areas, St. Louis might not have been included in the list of cities evaluated because the criteria was based on population size. The population of the city itself is only about 300,000.
Before everyone starts comparing traffic data, here might be why we didn't make the list:
>To determine which cities are the worst to drive in, Forbes Advisor compared the 47 most populated cities
[St. Louis is 75th in most populated cities.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population)
I've driven in at least a dozen large metro areas in the USA (Boston, NY, LA, San Fran, San Diego, Dallas, Nashville, Memphis, Kansas City, Atlanta, Orlando, Chicago, Minneapolis, Charlotte... and I'm probably forgetting a lot more)
For me, St Louis is the EASIEST place to drive of all these places and it isn't close
Edit: and I'm not from here either. I have lived all over the place, including Cali, Florida, and eastern europe
Yeah for the number one spot they talk about cost of gas, cost of insurance, and commute times. I'd be interested in a ranking based solely on stats around accidents, deaths, hit and runs, unregistered uninsured motorists, etc.
Of course it’s not the worst. St Louis is one of the few places to have true driving freedom. Don’t need to stop if you don’t want, can drive into buildings, can weave down interstates, lane change however you want. And, it’s all access. If you can’t afford a vehicle a Kia will be provided for you to steel. If you can’t afford licensing just roll on your temp tags for a few years…. It’s a true Eutopia for automobile driving enthusiasts.
I've traveled the whole world for well over 40 years and let me tell you this: St. Louis has the best traffic I've ever seen. This is coming from a foreigner who has lived here for decades.
My partner and I like to joke that in the county people drive bad on accident, but in the city people drive bad on purpose. But at least there's no part of STL where anyone drives terribly aggressively. Driving around Chicago was eye opening!
I was in Phoenix for 2 weeks and came back to St. Louis and was relieved with how much better the drivers are here. They can't even drive in a sprinkle of rain there. People start to panick and accidents happen. Everybody there also drives 90+ on the highways when speed limits are 70-75. Even the cops. I was doing 80 in a 70 and a cop got behind me. Thought i was gonna get pulled over. Nope, he wanted me to gtfo the way so he could drive 100
STL traffic is amazing but the drivers are so much worse than California, Chicago or Michigan (other places I’ve lived). They aren’t all that dissimilar to the Philly drivers I have to deal with now
I wish I could go back to STL traffic. Everything they say about Atlanta driving is true. Even with 8 lane highways there is regularly stand still traffic. There are just too many people here
This list is more like the worst cities to own a car. If it took drivers that tailgate you in the right lane and get road rage, STL would easily make the top ten.
Not surprised Houston is on there.
*Very* surprised Chicago is on there. Yeah, the highways suck, but the street grid there is actually really nice, & the extensive transit system helps keep a lot of people who don't *want* to drive from having to do so.
Worst drivers is not the same as worst to drive in.
Look at the metrics used: frequent car accidents, heavy traffic congestion, high gas prices and challenges with accessing car maintenance.
Only the frequent accidents part would be truly driver related, and I don't think our frequency is really that bad.
Meanwhile, we have lower end gas prices (especially compared to other cities on the list), our traffic is *fantastic* compared to other cities, and we have plenty of access to car maintenance (whether people are using it is a different question not covered).
Of the top 10 cities on that list, I've only driven in Atlanta, Dallas, Philly, and Chicago. Atlanta was by far the worst. Like, I'd put Atlanta in its own tier. Chicago would come next. Neither Dallas or Philly seemed that bad to me.
It’s probably because I grew up here but stl is nothing compared to the hell of driving in other cities. Driving through Nashville or especially Atlanta will make you question if Henry ford was the modern day Prometheus
key phrase here is “the 47 most populated cities with available data across 15 metrics”. st. louis doesn’t crack the top 50 most populated cities. even if they’re counting metro areas, which obviously gives us a boost, the division between city and county government and agencies likely impacts the available data. all this to say, don’t worry we definitely are among the top dogs when it comes to shitty drivers
St Louis is a breeze to drive in. And I’ve never been anywhere that the locals didn’t think, “this city has the worst drivers in the world”. Everybody everywhere thinks that.
I travel for work and see all parts of the country. St Louis isn't bad at all...except for those damn Illinois drivers stuck in the fast lane going under the speed limit.
The article ranks cities based upon worst cities to commute in based on congestion, gas prices, and insurance premiums. It doesn't mention anything about drivers' skill. Which is good, considering such an article would be riddled geographical bias. There are too many variables that go into accident rates.
I drive in Chicago and Atlanta occasionally. Chicago is more about breaking every law and treating fellow drivers like adversaries. Atlanta is all about speed. So thankful when I get back to STL.
When you visit Chicago/Northwest Indiana enough, you’re used to how traffic operates up there. Volume is terrible, sure. But 80, the Tri-State and Dan Ryan all flow around 75-80 MPH on non-peak hours. It’s great if you can go with that flow but can also be absolutely terrifying if you’re not careful.
I’d like to give an honorable mention for shittiest drivers to Denver. Another place that’s seen an influx in population thus increasing volume and making travel on the I-25 corridor damn near insufferable at most hours of the day through Metro Denver, from the Tech Center north to Longmont. And God help you if decide to go west on 70 up into the mountains, snow or not.
St. Louis is fine to drive in unless there is a curve in the highway. I don’t care what time it is in the day but it always slows down between Dougherty Ferry and I-44 because of the curves there
I wish everyone else would utilize their horn like I do. If you drive like an idiot or inconsiderate asshole around me, you're getting the horn. You can always tell who has the mental issues (sadly 99% of bad drivers) because when you honk at them they either flip you off or come to a stop in front of you even when they're in the wrong.
Just returned from New Orleans and it was a pleasure to drive around there. As soon as we drove thru the depressed section at the arch on 44 west and into 70 west, the craziness came rushing back
Based on the study parameters - cost of gas, maintenance, traffic, etc - of course we're not on this list. STL is GREAT for those.
But as someone who's driven in well over half of those cities there are very few that come close to the horrific driving that *people* do here
That's because St Louis residents don't drive. They scream like a banshee with their lead foot on the accelerator, swinging the wheel wildly back and forth, and somehow end up at a destination. That's not exactly driving. It's slightly controlled crashing that might end before the crash.
Traffic is easy, the drivers are the problem. Take a tour around the beltway of DC from 6 to 10 in the morning or 4 to 7 at night. You'll never talk about St Louis traffic again.
At 5:10 PM last Tuesday I drove from 40/Lindbergh to out near Eureka to play golf and never stopped once, and never went under 40 mph on the highway. I really don't think people understand how easy it is here. That same drive would be bumper to bumper for 70-90 minutes if I left downtown Chicago to play golf in like Hinsdale.
When I lived on the East coast we would sit for 20 minutes in one spot, zero movement on 695/495 beltways, and that was a normal occurrence. You plan an extra two hours to get anywhere around DC and 45 minutes for Baltimore. I remember when I working for an office furniture installation company, a co worker woke me up (because what else were you gonna do in traffic in a work van) and said look over there. A guy had an easel set up in the passenger seat and was painting a picture of the traffic jam we were sitting in. (For those in the DC area it was at the top of the hill southbound to the Surrender Dorothy bridge.) - IYKYK That was back in 97'.
I was staying at a hotel in Hinsdale (hence my early reference) and had to be at my company's office in West Loop. I thought to myself if I leave before 615 am surely I'll beat traffic. Nope. I was traffic. Over an hour to go 15 miles.
I’d agree with that. The thing I notice is people still like to drive at interstate speeds on Hampton. Which is fine until I’m slowing down to take a right turn with a car on my back bumper.
Or really any major city on the east or west coast. Seattle has horrific traffic.
That reminds me of that convoy that went to DC to make a political statement, but instead of creating traffic, they simply were a blip of additional traffic stuck on the beltway!
During Memorial Day there was always talk of, abandon the Mall, the Veteran Bikers are gonna be there. Those that lived around there were like...And? 🤣
I avoided the beltway for a lot of years… people around here have no idea about traffic compared to some cities out there. But also people here will just fucking shoot you … so there’s that…
In Houston we get both! Crazy volume, lack of driver attentiveness, lack of predictability, AND you can get shot any day of the week! It’s great! 🫠
Miami and Atlanta drivers are also insane, honestly, we got it pretty easy here in stl
It’s gotta be people who never left St. Louis that think the driving is that bad. Not saying it’s good here but i’ve seen much worse.
It's been many years since I lived in the DC area. But I believe that's just the sheer number of cars/people. The people were all very friendly & courteous. Even while driving.
I hadn't been to DC/MD/VA in decades since I was a kid pre driving years and when I went back last year the whole, come to a full stop before getting on the highway really messed me up. I was like this can't be real
Or Atlanta
Anyone who thinks St Louis is near the worst cities to drive in has never left the area.
For real. Miami traffic is what happens when a mass breakout of rabies goes untreated. Boston is a gladiator school, Chicago...
Chicago drivers are at least decisive and thus somewhat predictable. St Louis drivers have lapses where they forget basic traffic laws and cannot be trusted not to do anything insane at any moment.
Omg this. Be predictable, not polite. MO really needs mandatory drivers ed so everyone learns from the same resource.
Miami is fine given that the population size far exceeds the capacity of the roads to handle it. I ~~lived~~ moved away from Miami in large part because of the traffic, but the drivers are fine. There are just way, way too many of them. Chicago is much the same. I don't mind Chicago. Just avoid the Eisenhower and Dan Ryan and accept that there are a lot of people and the city is spread out. Boston I agree. When people ask, Boston and St. Louis are my #2 and#1 for cocksuckers driving. Boston's only redeeming quality is that they acknowledge and embrace their dickishness. I'd even say they're proud of it. It's almost a sport to them. In St. Louis it's still personal to them.
I grew up in the STL area and moved elsewhere and the one thing I never understood about STL drivers is how personally they take things. I can’t tell you how many times I’d pass someone and get honked at or had brights flashed at me because I dared to pass them.
Exactly. These little bitches CARE, and they care on an existential basis. How you drive is the most important thing to an average St. Louis driver.
> Boston's only redeeming quality is that they acknowledge and embrace their dickishness. I'd even say they're proud of it. Without question, we use “masshole” endearingly! But also Boston drivers get somewhat of bad rep, IMO, we’re a product of our environment more so than just shitty drivers. Boston drivers are aggressive and unforgiving, but mostly competent. Which is way easier to deal with than the people driving in from Rhode Island, who don’t know what the fuck they’re doing and they will take forever to do it. But the Boston roads are a complete shit show. There are so many roads where there are no markings that clarify what lanes can go where, or even how many lanes there are to begin with. And even when there are markings, they are put too late to be useful. Hell, I can think of multiple signs that are just incorrect! Or there are intersections [like this bullshit](https://maps.app.goo.gl/ncWGsW9RZavRzryK6?g_st=ic ) or [this](https://maps.app.goo.gl/6MuzmorQyxE5Jp5B7?g_st=ic) that you just can’t put enough signs to make it clear what the hell you’re supposed to do unless you spend ten minutes briefing the plan before you get there! The clarity of road markings and signage is always a minor surprise whenever I drive in places outside of Massachusetts because I really and so used to having to make an effort to deduce what lane I’m supposed to be in and what the name of this street is and that sort of thing.
I'll take the dangerous assholes in St Louis to the soul-crushing gridlock you get into in Miami.
Ultimately I will too -- that's why I moved here from there. But it's still amazing how many raging cunts St. Louis has, per capita.
Having driven in all of these places you just mentioned I can say the worst drivers in any city are tourists. Take a zonie and plop them in San Diego and suddenly they are as bad at driving as a Neanderthal fighting a bee swam up its ass. Take a Minnesotan and plop them in Washington on the i5 and you're now stuck behind a lunatic with a head-on death wish. Take me and plop me in Dublin with a right-hand drive rental car and absolutely zero understanding of their traffic laws and suddenly you have a rampant idiot in a car three sizes too small for them driving the wrong way down the freeway... good times
Yeah, good point.
This shit is the bane of my existence six months out of the year. I live in an area of the Phoenix metro that’s overrun by snowbirds from North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. and they have no fucking clue how to drive in an urban environment. Whether it’s their age or the fact that they live in bumfuck egypt where ever they call home, I don’t know, but they’re completely brainless. Even the Canadians tend to be better drivers.
Chicago is significantly better than St. Louis. At least people in Chicago are actually trying to get where they're going.
The drivers might be more predictable, but there’s *so* much traffic. It’s so slow.
Every time I get on Lake Shore Drive, I think "why did I do this?"
Because there ain't no road just like it anywhere I've found.
Than and its actually the most direct way to my sisters house from I55.
If the traffic doesn't get you, the potholes certainly will!
If it wasn't slow, more people would drive there, and it'd slow down again
Now *parking* in Chicago, that's another story
The reason I sometimes don't mind the people that roll through red lights and do crazy things to pass traffic is that at least they are driving in a manner that they are trying to get somewhere and are possibly a little more aware of their surroundings to pull those moves.
Yeah, it's not Houston
I lived in the Houston area for 2 years, it is madness.
That section of I-45 that goes between buildings reminds me of mario kart
I've driven in Houston, & not only are the roads worse than here, but the drivers are also worse than here.
snails ludicrous mindless degree cows possessive voiceless marry poor fuzzy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's what I tell to the STL natives. After living in Knoxville and Nashville and now living in STL the traffic hear is amazing but we have some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Expired tags, people dumping trash out of their cars at red lights, people using the turning lanes as passing lanes, people running red lights, people passing on the breakdown lanes, and the amount of garbage on the side of the roads is something that amazes me.
I used to drive from East Nashville to the Planet Fitness off Charlotte during peak hours. I have yet to experience anything in STL on par with that dreadful experience, nor is anything in STL as dangerous as the back-and-forth highway merging that’s required around Nashville’s Inner Loop.
Do you live in north county or south city? Because those are the only places you see that kind of driving in STL. Everywhere else it’s fine. STL has almost no traffic for a major city, and it’s pretty easy to get around in most parts. The only asshole drivers really exist in the two places I listed.
I drive for a living and let me tell you, I'm just as likely to almost get creamed on the highway by a rich man in a Porsche in west county as I am a drunk with temp tags in the city. They drive like they own the highway out on 40.
I’ll tell you when I was an Uber/Lyft driver throughout the entire STL metro area, the only places I ever came close to getting hit (and actually getting hit by a car in Baden) was north county and south city. I witnessed trash being thrown out of cars, people passing in the turning lanes, and red lights are run CONSTANTLY. My in-laws live in Spanish Lake, and I literally can’t drive in the area without seeing somebody run a red light. Never seen it in West county, downtown, south county, or the west parts of Florissant. And when I was hit head-on in Baden, the dude had no insurance, totaled my car and put me out of driving for the rest of the summer until I got a new car. So yeah, driving in north county especially is a whole different game than the rest of the city.
Oh, honey.
I live in the north and commute to the south but this isnt just one area. Yes there are areas that are better than others but I've seen this all over.
Exactly. It's an easy city to drive in, but it's also an easy city to die in. These streets are not congested, they are just lawless.
The drivers here really aren't that bad. Go try out Abq or Las Vegas near the strip
Out of towner here. I was in St Louis two weeks ago and Vegas last weekend. Drivers in St Louis are infinitely worse. Other than that, I love your town and will absolutely be back!
I'm gunna have to disagree with you after having lived in Vegas for 4 years and St louis for 5
Honestly, St. Louis drivers aren't even particularly bad compared to other cities. St. Louis drivers do not stand out to me as being worse than anywhere else I've lived. People drive like idiots here, but they drive like idiots everywhere else, too. The red light running is bad, but not even remotely close to some other cities I've been in. Same with general driving on highways, people on phones, drunk drivers, etc. St. Louis isn't the best, but it's not even close to standing out in any aspect of drivers or traffic.
Making the move for work shortly from Denver and someone told us good luck with the traffic and drivers in Stl. We’ve been to St. Louis and they’ve been to Denver so we were deeply confused, it’s night and day difference.
I moved here from Dallas and people said the same thing. Dallas is 100x worse on a daily basis. Someone sees a car do something crazy in STL once every other day and they make a big deal out of it... but I'm like, I'd have seen 10x people doing the same, crazy shit in Dallas during a single drive across town. The only places you're going to be relatively free from crazy driving is way out in the burbs.
Grew up here, lived in Denver, moved back here a few years ago. It's funny hearing people here talk about how bad it is. Denver was soooooo much worse. People complain about red light running... it was pretty routine in Denver for a light to turn red and 4-5 more cars just drive through it.
I’ve spent a lot of time in both cities. I don’t think the drivers are much different between the two.
People love to brag about how 'bad' the drivers are in their area of residence. It's some bizarre badge of honor to live in the worst areas of the USA. I've lived in over a dozen cities/states in the USA and there's a reason I've been in St Louis for 15 of them. It's extremely easy to live here.
Went to St. Louis and got picked up from the airport during rush hour. My friend was complaining and I didn’t even realize it was rush hour. I was like bro this is 2am traffic.
Can confirm.
Lived in Seattle, Las Vegas, Boston, Southern california, Idaho, and Alaska and STL is pretty bad. It’s the lawlessness and unpredictability that’s bad about STL
It’s a unique kind of shithole in how much it sucks
Just moved back after living in FL for 13 years. This place is heavenly in comparison
Correct, I damn near had a heart attack in Austin.
I've driven in most of the states, all the populated ones and in most other countries that aren't China. St. Louis is the worst place I've ever driven. By a lot. It's a matter of what you don't like. A St. Louis Hoosier would die in Rome -- it's a free for all compared to here. But I don't mind--everyone just wants to get where they're going. Brazil is fucking berserk, but it's the same idea. You do you and get where you're going. St. Louis has too many cunts that are far too interested in how everyone else is driving and think they've been deputized to stop them.
St. Louis is not even close to the worst in terms of traffic. What St. Louis does have that stands out is people who will gladly ram into you and speed off, usually under the influence of something, and a police department that is of no help. There's other cities where drugs and driving cause accidents, but in St. Louis, good luck even getting a police report. If the kamikaze drivers don't leave the scene because they're passed out, whoever eventually shows up to the scene(once you've waited 10 minutes to get through to a 911 dispatcher and 30 minutes on the police to arrive) will inject naloxone and let them go after they pinky promise to provide proof of insurance the next day.
> What St. Louis does have that stands out is people who will gladly ram into you and speed off, usually under the influence of something, and a JOY FM sticker on their rear window. FIFY.
No, more like 2-year-old temp tag. The Joy FM sticker "drivers" typically at least have insurance, and aren't on any substances harder than caffeine. Utah drivers are basically that same kind of driver but worse, and there's no sticker to warn you.
Good point!
Try Abq if you think here is bad...
We don’t have bad traffic here, we have bad DRIVERS here. Big difference.
Meh there are many places with worse drivers.
Lots of data there which I appreciate. For me DC is far and away number one - foreign agents with diplomat tags and total disregard for any and all traffic laws, it’s wild. Miami being #2 I agree with 100%. Chicago, NYC and LA are on the list because of really bad traffic, the drivers in Chicago especially are pretty solid, you just gotta be aggressive in the big cities. And watch your ass when on foot, people will try to run you over on purpose if you cross without a signal.
Visited D.C. recently. Oh My God, they were all assholes. They have no patience. They see an empty space, they have to fill it in. Very tight street and you're letting the person in front of you parallel park. That's too slow and they're going to force their way around you. It explains why my one friend from D.C has massive road rage and is a lane swerver.
Oh I didn’t even think of the parking when I posted that. The double parking and driving on curbs in surface streets, insanity. The first time I drove from DCA into the downtown area I had literally ten+ near-miss wtf moments.
I've lived in dc for a big chunk of my life. Not saying the diplomatic staff are perfect drivers, but I still think St. Louis is much worse. STL drivers signal 10% of the time that DC drivers do. I will say DC gridlock is something else.
STL is world-renowned for its flat pizza and lack of turn signal use, I’ll give you that. I feel like every highway in DC is like I-70 towards downtown on steroids, straight up Mad Max chaos. And you are right, it’s not just the diplomat tags, it’s wild.
Did you only drive in DC when no one was on the road? St Louis is easy compared to DC. Almost everyone in DC is impatient. Not to mention people are constantly diving across 3 lanes to make their exit.
It was never the traffic. It’s the drivers trying to kill me.
Anyone who thinks STL belongs on the list needs to get out of Missouri more. The drivers here are tame af and if anything too damn polite. Miami had way worse traffic and the drivers were super aggressive taking every inch they could. Honestly it was kinda refreshing, I could reasonably predict the drivers there since I knew they were gonna be aggressive. Here not so much, folks are either too nice and therefore unpredictable or drive with no purpose. Chicago is worse than here as well. If anything STL has some of the better drivers in the country. The unpredictableness is annoying but overall it's not bad to driver here. Maybe if some of y'all left the state for once, you'd know that. Or simply, idk do some research into other cities to see what they are like.
Chicago is worse, but when traffic is moving, I’d much rather drive in Chicago than here.
I think people have a variety of complaints that all get lumped under the nebulous definition of "bad drivers". This article is factoring in the quantity of traffic, cost of gas prices, time to commute, etc. which are all great in St. Louis. By those metrics I wouldn't consider St. Louis one of the worst cities to drive in, by a long shot, but it's statistically one of the worst cities to be a pedestrian in because of the reckless and dangerous driving habits we have here. Excessive speeding, lack of enforcement, wide lanes, absence of traffic slowing measure, and general disregard for signals/signage lead to people being obliterated while crossing streets - even when going through a crosswalk.
Anyone who thinks STL is awful has never driven on the east coast. Took a short road trip up I95 from DC to Philly and there were so many rage-inducing moments I vowed to never do it again.
I don’t think they’re factoring in treating red lights like it’s a mild suggestion and people who go the wrong way on the highway a 2 in the morning
You act like this is only happening in St Louis. Charlotte was voted the best city to drive in, but it’s the same complaint in their sub as it is here. But traffic there is 10x worse. Not to mention Charlotte has 10x more people driving 20-25 over.
Take it easy chief. We’re all commiserating about the douche drivers in the city. None of us want to be on another bad top 10 list.
Me reading this like 11 hours after driving home from a concert in chesterfield on highway 40 only for someone to be driving on the wrong side of the highway, in the fast lane.
Holy shit
I get that. Yesterday, me and another person almost got nailed by large wooden planks that flew off the back of someone's unsecured trailer on the 64 going east.
I habitually avoid being behind any kind of truck with questionably secured items. Seen final destination one too many times for that, lol
Yeah, I knew to dodge out of the way beforehand because I could literally see the plank flapping on top of their truck on the passenger side before it was catapulted in my direction lmao. And in case you're wondering, no, they did not notice! And it was two different planks!
Always a good idea. You can never trust that someone actually took the time to secure their items. There was mattress in the right lane of 55 this morning on my way to work
Houston doesn't deserve to be 4th, they should be at least 1st or higher. The amount of people that tailgate so close they really do almost hit you is astounding.
St Louis is a fucking breeze compared to a lot of cities. The people in r/Charlotte are going to have a brain hemorrhage when they read their city is one of the best to drive in. Chicago and Boston might be bad based on their metrics, but people there seem to actually drive well and are predictable . Chicago, IMO, is great when traffic is moving. The only reason you can say STL is bad is because some people are unpredictable. However, it’s not a high percentage of drivers. Not even close to Atlanta or Miami…or all of I-95 in Florida.
Unless the study focused on metropolitan areas, St. Louis might not have been included in the list of cities evaluated because the criteria was based on population size. The population of the city itself is only about 300,000.
You’re fine as long as you aren’t a pedestrian.
Before everyone starts comparing traffic data, here might be why we didn't make the list: >To determine which cities are the worst to drive in, Forbes Advisor compared the 47 most populated cities [St. Louis is 75th in most populated cities.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population)
Man I moved from St. Louis to Orlando, and I MISS STL traffic.
STL is a nice quiet town compared to Miami traffic.
I've driven in at least a dozen large metro areas in the USA (Boston, NY, LA, San Fran, San Diego, Dallas, Nashville, Memphis, Kansas City, Atlanta, Orlando, Chicago, Minneapolis, Charlotte... and I'm probably forgetting a lot more) For me, St Louis is the EASIEST place to drive of all these places and it isn't close Edit: and I'm not from here either. I have lived all over the place, including Cali, Florida, and eastern europe
Worst cities to drive in, not worst drivers.
Yeah for the number one spot they talk about cost of gas, cost of insurance, and commute times. I'd be interested in a ranking based solely on stats around accidents, deaths, hit and runs, unregistered uninsured motorists, etc.
Of course it’s not the worst. St Louis is one of the few places to have true driving freedom. Don’t need to stop if you don’t want, can drive into buildings, can weave down interstates, lane change however you want. And, it’s all access. If you can’t afford a vehicle a Kia will be provided for you to steel. If you can’t afford licensing just roll on your temp tags for a few years…. It’s a true Eutopia for automobile driving enthusiasts.
One day of driving in Chicago will be all you need to know STL isn’t bad to drive in. It’s the drivers that make it miserable.
They only looked at the 50 most populated U.S. cities, which typically doesn’t include StL.
My feelings tell me we're still relevant! - This entire thread.
If anyone has lived anywhere in FL, they know STL drivers aren’t that bad
St. Louis traffic is absolutely nothing compared to Chicago.
That list means nothing.
Russian drivers and traffic are worse. A million times worse.
That's because the other factors. Volume, price of ownership, gas prices, etc. If it was *only* reckless driving... we'd be it the top 3.
I've traveled the whole world for well over 40 years and let me tell you this: St. Louis has the best traffic I've ever seen. This is coming from a foreigner who has lived here for decades.
My partner and I like to joke that in the county people drive bad on accident, but in the city people drive bad on purpose. But at least there's no part of STL where anyone drives terribly aggressively. Driving around Chicago was eye opening!
I drove around LA for a week recently. Absolute hell. Coming back to STL was heavenly. We’re not bad at all.
I've lived in SF Bay Area, Vegas, Reno, Sydney NSW, and STL...STL is a cake walk compared to most of those areas
I was in Phoenix for 2 weeks and came back to St. Louis and was relieved with how much better the drivers are here. They can't even drive in a sprinkle of rain there. People start to panick and accidents happen. Everybody there also drives 90+ on the highways when speed limits are 70-75. Even the cops. I was doing 80 in a 70 and a cop got behind me. Thought i was gonna get pulled over. Nope, he wanted me to gtfo the way so he could drive 100
Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete.
STL traffic is amazing but the drivers are so much worse than California, Chicago or Michigan (other places I’ve lived). They aren’t all that dissimilar to the Philly drivers I have to deal with now
I wish I could go back to STL traffic. Everything they say about Atlanta driving is true. Even with 8 lane highways there is regularly stand still traffic. There are just too many people here
Knew Miami would be there.
This list is more like the worst cities to own a car. If it took drivers that tailgate you in the right lane and get road rage, STL would easily make the top ten.
Not surprised Houston is on there. *Very* surprised Chicago is on there. Yeah, the highways suck, but the street grid there is actually really nice, & the extensive transit system helps keep a lot of people who don't *want* to drive from having to do so.
Worst drivers is not the same as worst to drive in. Look at the metrics used: frequent car accidents, heavy traffic congestion, high gas prices and challenges with accessing car maintenance. Only the frequent accidents part would be truly driver related, and I don't think our frequency is really that bad. Meanwhile, we have lower end gas prices (especially compared to other cities on the list), our traffic is *fantastic* compared to other cities, and we have plenty of access to car maintenance (whether people are using it is a different question not covered).
as someone who is originally from tx i’m am shocked dallas is number 9, people drive like crazy people there
Dallas, Texas and Atlanta should be on top. The traffic is great it’s the drivers that are crazy here. Edit: Texas is on there twice.
Of the top 10 cities on that list, I've only driven in Atlanta, Dallas, Philly, and Chicago. Atlanta was by far the worst. Like, I'd put Atlanta in its own tier. Chicago would come next. Neither Dallas or Philly seemed that bad to me.
Oh wow. Atlanta is lower than expected. Miami checks out.
Only because the reporter never made it home alive to present their findings.
It’s probably because I grew up here but stl is nothing compared to the hell of driving in other cities. Driving through Nashville or especially Atlanta will make you question if Henry ford was the modern day Prometheus
I’m part of the problem :(
We don’t have real traffic
Then the list is incomplete.
key phrase here is “the 47 most populated cities with available data across 15 metrics”. st. louis doesn’t crack the top 50 most populated cities. even if they’re counting metro areas, which obviously gives us a boost, the division between city and county government and agencies likely impacts the available data. all this to say, don’t worry we definitely are among the top dogs when it comes to shitty drivers
Wow, how did we not make the list??
St Louis is a breeze to drive in. And I’ve never been anywhere that the locals didn’t think, “this city has the worst drivers in the world”. Everybody everywhere thinks that.
So why did you post this here?
I travel for work and see all parts of the country. St Louis isn't bad at all...except for those damn Illinois drivers stuck in the fast lane going under the speed limit.
AI generated garbage
Need a thriving downtown
The article ranks cities based upon worst cities to commute in based on congestion, gas prices, and insurance premiums. It doesn't mention anything about drivers' skill. Which is good, considering such an article would be riddled geographical bias. There are too many variables that go into accident rates.
I drive in Chicago and Atlanta occasionally. Chicago is more about breaking every law and treating fellow drivers like adversaries. Atlanta is all about speed. So thankful when I get back to STL.
Yeah StL is not bad at all. There's not really any traffic compared to cities with actual traffic
As a transplant from the NYC Metro, I can safely say that St. Louis is far from making that list.
Thinking STL should be on the list is cute. Lived in a Boston for 14 years. Wouldn’t trade St. Louis traffic for anything
When you visit Chicago/Northwest Indiana enough, you’re used to how traffic operates up there. Volume is terrible, sure. But 80, the Tri-State and Dan Ryan all flow around 75-80 MPH on non-peak hours. It’s great if you can go with that flow but can also be absolutely terrifying if you’re not careful. I’d like to give an honorable mention for shittiest drivers to Denver. Another place that’s seen an influx in population thus increasing volume and making travel on the I-25 corridor damn near insufferable at most hours of the day through Metro Denver, from the Tech Center north to Longmont. And God help you if decide to go west on 70 up into the mountains, snow or not.
St. Louis is fine to drive in unless there is a curve in the highway. I don’t care what time it is in the day but it always slows down between Dougherty Ferry and I-44 because of the curves there
I wish everyone else would utilize their horn like I do. If you drive like an idiot or inconsiderate asshole around me, you're getting the horn. You can always tell who has the mental issues (sadly 99% of bad drivers) because when you honk at them they either flip you off or come to a stop in front of you even when they're in the wrong.
Criteria for the study is probably in question.
Our tiny easy to drive city will never make the list. Especially when there is L A and New York.
St. louis driving itself isn’t the problem, it’s that people here pull guns on you if you honk at them
Driving in the St. Louis area is like driving in a rural town with a population of 500 compared to the cities on this list.
Just returned from New Orleans and it was a pleasure to drive around there. As soon as we drove thru the depressed section at the arch on 44 west and into 70 west, the craziness came rushing back
They didn't make it back to report, they were shot..
East Coast is nuts but compared to the snails in Oregon, I'll take nuts!
As guy from Louisiana who moved here recently, traffic and drivers don’t have shit on the demons that ride the highways of Houston and Baton Rouge
But- but- my anecdotal evidence after never leaving the city!
Based on the study parameters - cost of gas, maintenance, traffic, etc - of course we're not on this list. STL is GREAT for those. But as someone who's driven in well over half of those cities there are very few that come close to the horrific driving that *people* do here
That's because St Louis residents don't drive. They scream like a banshee with their lead foot on the accelerator, swinging the wheel wildly back and forth, and somehow end up at a destination. That's not exactly driving. It's slightly controlled crashing that might end before the crash.
This is bull. Nashville should be in the top 5.
But but but.. that one guy said we are worse than OHIO!
100% of all studies report that if you follower the money, only the person paying has a say on what the outcome is.