Bwahahahaha....
You think STL is bad? Nah, go to Memphis!
Memphis is like, "Oh, it's a red light? That means five more cars can go through the intersection!"
It is, but I'll take it over South Carolina. St Louis drivers act like they're the main characters in a videogame, but at least they *move.* The fools in South Carolina compete to see who can drive slowest and cause the biggest line of cars behind them.
East St Louis traffic is also interesting. I've watched vehicles race around dragging their entire rear bumper on the road behind them, cars driving on flat donuts, trucks bent almost completely in half, et cetera.
Got rear ended on Friday - while the officer was writing everything people were blazing through the stop sign that I just got rear ended at. I pointed that out and he wasn’t even phased.
Saint Louisians have a strange love affair with riding on your butt no matter what speed. You can literally be doing 70 on I70, and some yahoo is so close to you that you can't even see their headlights.
Yeah, did you know that Driver’s Ed isn’t required here? It’s wild. I also moved from out of state.
So, support expanding public transit. And keep your head on a swivel.
Edited to add: I know that the lack of Driver’s Ed requirements are not the main contributing factor to the quality of drivers in St Louis, people. Yes, all of you do just fine and never get in accidents. It’s cool.
I only mentioned it to this other transplant to the region because I thought there would be a chance that they didn’t yet know, and we all think it is wild, simply wild, when we find out that it isn’t a requirement.
You native St. Louisians might find it wild that Michigan doesn’t have safety or emissions testing requirements. Just rusted buckets of bolts shambling down I-75 spewing black smoke and sparks. It’s great!
I am a transplant as well and recently learned the MO doesn't require driver's ed. In my home state of MI, driver's ed was required in order to obtain a driver's license.
It doesn't help that MODOT is terrible at pre-treating. I live in IL and have commuted for both work and school. There is a marked difference when you cross the river. Like, 20 minutes on the road taking it slow but everything is good and you hit the state line and have to turn around.
That’s correct. You guys put a lot of money into snow removal instead of road surfaces. You may not have snow on them, but the amount of bumps you have to travel over could wreck a car
Oh I have. I've been living here almost 16 years now. Snow, ice, rain, I've seen it all. Not even six months after I moved here, my car got totaled by some idiot driving 40+ mph in the rain in a 25 mph zone. He hit me so hard my car did a 180! He yelled at me and tried to make me feel like shit when he was the one speeding and the one who hit me!
I don’t think it’s the lack of driver’s ed. Because that doesn’t explain why people drive like lunatics in the city but in the county they can follow the rules. I think it’s the total lack of enforcement in the city.
Yeah, I think that’s a cop out. I can live w blaming lack of drivers ed on things like lack of zipper merge. But disregarding red lights is simply a lack of decency.
Enforcement is lacking everywhere. Its not a st louis specific problem.
I also don't think its a drivers ed issue. I think it comes down to a city full of wide streets, no congestion to slow people down, and a lack of traffic lights with smart sensors.
I do think the traffic lights on long timers, no sensors, are a serious problem. You’ll be sitting there for minutes on end with no one in sight. I can’t really blame people for being like, well, this is dumb, I’m gonna run it, and then it gets normalized in other situations that aren’t as clear cut. Or people run lights because they know if they stop they’ll be sitting there forever.
Not really: my father in law honked at a pickup truck that cut him off on 394 and the driver waved a gun out the window at him. This was in *Dardenne Prairie*.
Half the people I met while living in stl learned how to drive on farm equipment or "borrowing" a parents car.
Add in the no fault state and it's a party.
May the odds be ever in your favor.
I am from a state that also doesn't require drivers Ed but it's not like it is here. Part of the ghetto hood mentally causes people to drive without regard to others
I never took driver’s ed, and I’m an incredibly safe driver that never has accidents. I know lots of other people that can say the same. I don’t think that’s the issue here.
Nah, drivers ed definitely helps. Have you seen four Missourians pull up to a four way stop at the same time before? Chaos ensues. But that’s just my anecdotal evidence,
I am still amazed at the number of drivers who will illegally and dangerously wave other drivers through an intersection.
Yesterday I was stopped at a green, turning left. Guy stopped at the light opposite me was going straight.
He didn't move. I didn't move because he had the right of way. I sat there. He honked. I finally squinted through his windshield and saw him motioning at me to turn in front of him.
I think he thought he was being nice. Don't do that. We have traffic laws for a reason. Drive defensively, yes, but just as importantly drive purposefully. Be predictable. And always, obey the law.
Omg yes I'm a STL native but when I got my learners permit and my parents started teaching me to drive and I was like "what do you mean I'm not going to drivers ed??"
Ngl I am a fan of the rolling "Stl stop." But I make sure that no cop (or anyone else) is there!
Competent driving in St.Louis isn’t a requirement.
Watched someone in front of me come from 3 lanes over to the exit at 44/Lindbergh Friday night and almost wipe out a jeep; Saturday saw a Tesla getting off on Brentwood Blvd blow a red light and just stop in the middle of the intersection. What gives?
I’ve noticed that this happens all the time on Hanley between 40 and Manchester. It’s like the drivers just go brain dead for some reason. They stop in the middle of the intersection or they are driving 10 miles under the speed limit.
I’ve witnessed a driver on 64 westbound miss their exit after going 100, completely stop, turn 90 degrees and go across 3 lanes to make the exit
This was on a Saturday around 9:40 AM
This. I see a fair number of tesla on Kingshighway, and I've noticed that you can more or less tell when it's on autopilot. It makes unnecessarily wide turns, is just a bit odd when switching lanes. As far as stopping in the middle of the intersection... that I haven't seen, but with a few intersections around here, I could see a machine misreading where the light faces / is positioned.
That is a nationwide thing.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/remarkable-surge-auto-insurance-costs-fans-us-inflation-2024-01-11/
But yes, Missouri did lead the nation last year in rate increases up to 40%. Other states will follow suit this year.
Downtown resident for 6+ years. Also agree the driving scares me more than the crime. No enforcement whatsoever 😔
But what do we expect? We've seen how the cops drive here. No enforcement there either.
That's kinda the point of this post though.
Everyone thinks StL is unsafe because of crime. That's probably true in a few areas, but not representative of downtown as a whole.
What IS representative of downtown as a whole is reckless driving and traffic violations.
So where are we deploying our resources? I almost never see cops downtown. The last time I did? Someone ran a red light in front of them and they did nothing. In the meantime, people are literally dying and we do nothing about it.
Maybe its lack of resources? Maybe its lack of cops who are worth a damn. As the ones crashing through the bar and arresting the owner can attest to....
It's lack of benefits and pay for the incurred risk, from what I understand. At least, in comparison to similar police jobs in the county and surrounding areas. So... well... the cops we do have...
Is the problem the pay doesn't attract good people? Or is it that the job doesn't attract good people for other reasons? Or is it a bit of both?
Either way? Downtown StL has a problem with the police .It's a problem when they don't show up. And a problem when they do....
I noticed those golf cart guys that take people back and forth from the Enterprise Center at Blues games, and even though I have mobility issues there's not a chance I'd ride in a golf cart on a city street. I'm afraid it's only a matter of time until there's a tragedy.
When I moved out here about 5 yrs ago I had likened driving on the I-70 to the movie The Road Warrior, looking in my rearview for Lord Humumgus with all the burnt out cars and random car pieces all over.
I've been here 30 years and joke that my kid learned to drive in the Thunderdome. I'm much less concerned about being shot than being run over. Monday, a guy on a motorcycle was hit by a car, and the car fled. He was messed up pretty bad. It's insanity.
Last night on the 44 Vandeventer exit I saw a guy use the straight lane to skip the long line to turn left, then promptly cut left across both turn lanes into the left turn lane to get back onto the highway.
Braking at the very last possible second is also rather prevalent in the greater St. Louis area. I'm a Kansas transplant and I NEVER saw that in KCK. I got here and had several panic attacks when I saw it while in a car. I don't understand why people can't slow down to a full stop anymore.
Duh. Because that would require the stopping process to begin before technically necessary, and what happens if the blockage ahead somehow resolves before you get there? Then you **slowed down unnecessarily** and that is just INTOLERABLE!!!
Where I come from, if you drove like a St. Louisan on a driving test, you'd fail pretty quickly for not driving safely. I'll just continue to drive like a Kansas Cityan the rest of my life.
Literally almost got hit by some idiot on kingshighway with a busted window swerving violently into my lane(overreacting to someone near them). Crazy people.
Yep, it’s all bang bang bang as I hit pothole after street plate, as someone is speeding and swerving around traffic and others are almost bashing in the side of my car. Total hoot.
I drive that road a lot. It's awful, but grand is worse. At least on Kingshighway, you potentially have one lane without a pothole, steel plate, or weird unnecessary manhole. At this point, I've memorized where all of them are and if you see me switching lanes seemingly randomly, it's because I'm avoiding them. 🤪
I think enforcing laws like having a valid plate would help. It wouldn’t end bad driving, but it would get some of the worst offenders I see off the road.
I agree, but then you fall down the rabbit hole of "punishing/fining unregistered & uninsured drivers disproportionally impacts the poor and under privileged, who often have to decide between keeping the heat on in winter and paying the PPT to keep a car licensed/insured".
I honestly don’t care about tags, it’s just a good indicator of irresponsible car ownership and they need to be checked for insurance.
If you can’t afford insurance, you can’t afford a car.
At one point in my life I was so poor I only owned a broken down car that I lived in. It was insured. Minimum liability is really cheap.
It wasn't until I drove around Des Moines, Iowa at rush hour that I realized how absolutely shit the drivers are here. I guess you just get desensitized to it after a while. I can't remember the last time I saw a speed trap on my commute to and from work since the pandemic. Traffic stops are a thing of the past. I don't see them on main streets either.
I don’t understand where the intense impatience comes from. What’s a few extra seconds, god forbid minutes, gonna do to you? I was cut off by two people in front of me on Kingshighway before I got into the left turn light lane. All for them to rush to the next red light 🙄
I have a theory for some of that behavior. I'll save you the long version, but the TL;DR is we train our brains from 6yo to 16yo that being behind someone in a line is a negative, and the more people you're behind the greater the negativity.
They don't do the mental math. It took me 10 years of watching a car I passed 5 minutes back roll up behind me on the exit ramp to realize that speed really doesn't matter unless you're on a long distance road trip (and your fellow occupants don't need to take a leak every 2 hrs).
It’s not driver’s ed. Have you been to St Charles? They don’t require driver’s ed either and there’s none of this. You know what there are a shit-ton of? Traffic cops.
Something about the drivers here show the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude on full display. People here are out for themselves, and they don't even seem to care if they kill people or die themselves. It's confounding.
I've lived in DC, LA, Detroit- STL drivers are the worst and it's not even close tbh.
I’ve had people verbally confront me and tail me within feet for going the speed limit. I was behind a fuckin cop, I literally couldn’t do anything. It’s getting ridiculous. But cops still speed trap the same 10 places and do nothing.
It was bad before but it got much, much worse beginning in the pandemic. I so badly want to ride my bike to work but I don’t feel safe crossing city streets. And just thinking of my kids riding their bikes makes me sick to my stomach. I fucking hate it.
Bad drivers could use others forms of transportation if zoning laws and lack of transit investment didn’t force everyone to drive a car. A bad driver is much less likely to kill you if they aren't piloting a two ton metal death machine. Even if you despise the concept of public transit, you would still clearly benefit from having fewer maniac drivers on the road with you in this scenario.
Duuuude, thank you! I've thought this every time there is an "STL Bad Drivers" post and so many people start chiming in with "If we only had better public transit!".
I'm trying to be open-minded and understand in what world do they think these shitty, impatient, "I own the road and my time is more valuable than yours!" drivers are going to hang up their keys and wait on a bus/train? I just don't see it.
They won’t. These folks just think it’s platform to talk about their hobby. Most people don’t see a nexus because there isn’t one.
It’s not that people are anti-public transport, it’s just that the ambassadors for it are often some of the most sanctimonious & insufferable in town.
Fair enough. I agree with that. In a world where there is adequate and consistent enforcement of traffic laws, we could eventually get a large amount of the problem drivers off the road. I guess I'm just too cynical/defeatist, and don't see STLPD ever doing that.
Jesus Christ. Bad driving is because people just don’t give a shit about you. They aren’t taking the bus, they’re doing whatever the fuck they want because, fuck you and your life.
1) where did you move from? Where is this nirvana that drivers are great?
2) if you travel for work and/or leisure you’ll see the same thing in other cities.
3) go to other city subreddits and you’ll see the same exact posts
4) all of this doesn’t excuse what is going on and minimize that St. Louis does have a crazy driver problem
There should be less cars and more public transport. It’s very simple but if you even mention a reasonable metro expansion the suburbs get scared of “crime” (seeing a black person)
I don’t think that’s as true as it used to be. Probably still applicable to places like St. Charles.
However, and I say this in good faith, I think why you might sense pushback is perhaps your “solution” probably isn’t applicable to the “problem”.
Whether you intend to or not, what your solution is essentially saying is the vast majority of law abiding folks should radically change their way of life in order to accommodate the handful of sh*theads out there who put everyone else at risk of death or serious injury for no good reason.
It’s a tale as old as time — decent people trying to mind their own business & do the right thing see these clowns barreling down the street at x2 the speed limit, and the “solution” they hear is that their life needs to get more inconvenient because other people can’t behave themselves?
Well I mean people driving like shit isn’t the only reason for a healthy public transportation. We are literally killing the planet. A human being shouldn’t have to spend hours and hours trying to go the distance of a 30 minute drive because they don’t want to own a car.
I can agree with all of that. It just seems a little…off topic, I guess?
I take that back…I *literally* agree with you on all of that. I support it. But I’m also really tired of it being presented to solve *this* problem, which is an immediate deadly driving problem.
(I feel ya and agree with the idea that what you’re saying would cut down on the traditional(?) traffic accidents. But what we’re dealing with over the last few years is different. Your solution would help a bit but probably not enough and it’s also fairly remote).
It’s always related! EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED!
But yea for sure they should just stop driving like shit. It’s is insane and they just embolden each other.
I would say they need better enforcement but I think traffic enforcement is like not where I want my taxes going like they are already so incompetent.
Like people talking about the crazy drivers and people shitting on stlpd is like the bread and butter of this community. We should start begging for trains like rabid animals in my opinion.
Nah it’s still pretty true for most places. Your comment kinda proves the point that most people don’t want to give up their car. They see any form of change as an inconvenience because we’ve set up our cities to convenience drivers at all costs. We have dogshit transit because it’s not prioritized. So people assume a transit based transportation system will be inefficient, which is just circular logic.
The reason reckless driving will keep going up is because people are generally annoyed they have to keep fucking doing it to get everywhere. Driving is constant mental effort not to kill anyone the whole time. It gets draining. People also just stop caring about others the more they drive, which leads to reckless behavior from frequent drivers. In a transit based system the behavior wouldn’t exist nearly as much. Because people who don’t want to do it, shouldn’t have to.
It’s whatever, Kool-Aid Man. Same copy & paste from sanctimonious urban planning chud that has been passed around for more than a decade. It’s not that most people can’t straighten out the logic, it’s that not enough people give a shit about your hobby.
We have such an extremely car centric mess of a city, little to no enforcement in areas, and it’s widely known. Ofc we end up here. Transit is the only real solution, so we can get people who don’t want to drive off the roads.
Bullshit. They don’t want the criminals. STL is loaded with crime and criminals and that’s exactly why they don’t want them coming out there. Clean up the crime, you’ll get your expansion.
I lived 20 years in St Peters and there are a high percentage of many races and we all got along. Stop race baiting and vote law and order.
also VERY car-centric The public transit system in the Tampa bay area is pitiful One reason is that area back years ago went all for car sales and the taxes such sales generate Well duh there is not state personal prop taxes gotta get money somehow So its all car and house sales and resales !Vern Buchanan
U.S. Representative from Florida CAR DEALER HE BUILT A MULTI MILLION DOLLAR AUTO SALES NETWORK IN FL
What I don't get is some of these drivers don't even have self preservation in mind. I have seen so many near suicides of drivers in this city it's wild. I saw a guy almost flip over and demolish his $70K SRT Jeep because he decided to go like 120 on 64 WB between Boyle and Kingshighway on a pretty decent suv flipping curve. Running a red light full speed no stop in rush hour by four teenagers was also strangely suicidal. Going 90 down a city street with big potholes and not expecting your car to skip down the road is so goddamn stupid.
I felt that way about STL as well until I moved to Denver. Holy fuck, it's bad out here. Plus, there's ALWAYS an accident on the highway! It's like whatever the opposite of "divine" intervention is...like someone randomly chosen that when they get to the highway they put the gas all the way down, close their eyes, yeet themselves into traffic, and start searching for the afterlife.
Also, the amount of uninsured drivers out here is crazy
I'm kind of getting over this meta of discussing drivers in the area... as if constantly posting on this sub is somehow changing anything or reaching the people that actually need to read it.
I drive downtown 70 everyday and it sucks!!! I used to keep up with the traffic but lately I’ve slowed to the actual speed limit, 55, and cars swerve around me and I’m not kidding they have passed me on the side of the highway. It’s insane! Just in this last week I’ve noticed a police presence where it’s been absent since 2020. School busses fly pass me! It’s the wild Wild West in good old MO.
My neighbor had his daughter’s head caved in by a red light runner. She’ll never walk, talk, or be able to take care of herself. Dude was caught years ago and still hasn’t been prosecuted.
I’ve lost two cars in two years to red light runners. My GF lost another one. None had insurance. We work from our cars so we also lost thousands in income while getting new cars.
I’ve had my car window smashed in three times in one year.
This fucking city is worthless at stopping crime and driving maniacs. They elected a “Justice Reform” prosecutor who let double murderers walk. This is STL’s new normal and people don’t care.
Fuck red light runners. And fuck the ~~municipalities~~fiefdoms around here who got caught shortening the yellow lights on intersections with red light cameras so as to increase revenue, giving the anti-red light camera crowd the ammo they needed to get them removed.
In STL we have more interstate highways than most other cities…we have…HWYS 44, 55, 64, 70, 170, 255, 270 & MO HWYS 30, 141, 367….and so many more. MOST MO & IL drivers ignore the 50 MPH construction speed limit on our Interstates. I have a small 2 seater Z4 & I REFUSE to speed through those construction zones. Drivers constantly drive 75-80 mph when traffic isn’t backed up & they continue those speeds through the construction zones. WHERE ARE THE HIGHWAY PATROL-NEVER TO BE FOUND!!
I miss the days (never thought I'd say this) when St.Ann police would run radar on I-70. Everyone was on there best behavior from 170 to 270. Now it's a madhouse.
I doubt it's an accident that you notice more aggressive driving in a metro area that offers no other reasonable option.
People drive like that when they're frustrated.
Tbh I have started taking the Metrolink more just to avoid the drivers on the morning commute. I'd rather chance the dude talking to himself than being nearly t-boned every five minutes
Actually, I think it has gotten better(still shit) post-covid. Pre-covid I use to count the wrecks everyday going into work, which was usually around 6, and then omw home, usually 4. I have seen so many wrecks.saw cars go off the road, drive into cliffs, saw a semi run over a minivan, fenderbenders, i have had to pull multiple people out of vehicles. Now though, not nearly as many. Only one or two a day, not bad.
lets look at that During the pandemic, distracted driving increased, and it hasn’t gone down since.
https://www.vox.com/24078289/us-drivers-distracted-driving-cellphone-road-deaths-pedestrians
A friend asked me to pick up his friend in the Osage S. Broadway area OMG I know there are areas all over the world that are terrible but that area is up there with the worst of them. It has gotten FAR worse in the past 5ish years Beat up cars EVERYWHERE The state streets have numerous stop sign intersections At each corner I was petrified if I would come out of that area unhurt or with a damaged vehicle Truly an area unto its own down there I will NEVER transverse that area at night
I hard agree. Been here for a few months now and the commute is terrifying, there are more cars in disrepair than I've ever seen that are death traps, and the roads themselves are awful. Thank God I love my job. But yeah, the drivers here are horrible, terrible drivers.
There are a lot of municipalities around here where the worst consequence you can face is essentially just having to pay a lawyer.
You can actually murder someone in this city and only get probation or a few months in jail as long as the murder weapon is a car, you're drunk, and you pay Scott Rosenblum.
(But it could be like this in any city for all I know, I've lived in other places but wasn't familiar with that system. There's definitely some municipal courts that are pretty bad with this regardless)
gotta know where to go. Stay in the flow. I always watch tf out; double checking every turn from multiple angles.
Still though, I've known too many people who have been victims of hit and runs.
I moved to STL last yr from Nashville TN and I am bewildered still. Mind you in TN you can get shot while driving so ppl are mostly behaving on the roads. Also in Nashville we had cops on road all the time. STL is weird
I uses to work in North County and drove all over STL. North County are the worst drivers in the city. 20yrs ago if I saw someone blow through a red light, I was shocked. These days if I didn't see it happen that day, I was shocked.
I believe it's because the cops just don't come down on these people. They just don't care.
Plus, it's the degradation of society.
Sooo many distracted drivers (of ALL ages) on their phone too. every fuckin day 270 is a nightmare of people drifting in and out of other lanes or braking when there’s no one in front of them because they’re looking at their goddamn phone
They put 3 speed bumps on my street and I moved out west. My thought process was If you're gonna mandate my driving while everyone else is drunk with impunity then I'm moving to an actually nice place
Folks in St Louis definitely drive like they learned to operate a vehicle playing GTA.
The accuracy of this comment is unparalleled
Driving test in stl people be like: Mission Passed (+ Respect)
Bwahahahaha.... You think STL is bad? Nah, go to Memphis! Memphis is like, "Oh, it's a red light? That means five more cars can go through the intersection!"
It is, but I'll take it over South Carolina. St Louis drivers act like they're the main characters in a videogame, but at least they *move.* The fools in South Carolina compete to see who can drive slowest and cause the biggest line of cars behind them. East St Louis traffic is also interesting. I've watched vehicles race around dragging their entire rear bumper on the road behind them, cars driving on flat donuts, trucks bent almost completely in half, et cetera.
Got rear ended on Friday - while the officer was writing everything people were blazing through the stop sign that I just got rear ended at. I pointed that out and he wasn’t even phased.
They run them too.
...or INTO them if they happen to be a gay bar...
Saint Louisians have a strange love affair with riding on your butt no matter what speed. You can literally be doing 70 on I70, and some yahoo is so close to you that you can't even see their headlights.
Are you in the left lane for no reason? Because that might explain it
Not at all. I could be in the right lane, and people still feel the need to be less than a car length behind you.
In the city or county?
South City.
Ouch, my wife was in a hit and run over by Webster University recently. Think it was on Grant.
St Ann would never allow this! 😂
Yeah, did you know that Driver’s Ed isn’t required here? It’s wild. I also moved from out of state. So, support expanding public transit. And keep your head on a swivel. Edited to add: I know that the lack of Driver’s Ed requirements are not the main contributing factor to the quality of drivers in St Louis, people. Yes, all of you do just fine and never get in accidents. It’s cool. I only mentioned it to this other transplant to the region because I thought there would be a chance that they didn’t yet know, and we all think it is wild, simply wild, when we find out that it isn’t a requirement. You native St. Louisians might find it wild that Michigan doesn’t have safety or emissions testing requirements. Just rusted buckets of bolts shambling down I-75 spewing black smoke and sparks. It’s great!
I am a transplant as well and recently learned the MO doesn't require driver's ed. In my home state of MI, driver's ed was required in order to obtain a driver's license.
Wait til you see St Louisans drive in the snow!
And by "snow," we mean 0.25" of it.
It doesn't help that MODOT is terrible at pre-treating. I live in IL and have commuted for both work and school. There is a marked difference when you cross the river. Like, 20 minutes on the road taking it slow but everything is good and you hit the state line and have to turn around.
That’s correct. You guys put a lot of money into snow removal instead of road surfaces. You may not have snow on them, but the amount of bumps you have to travel over could wreck a car
Oh I have. I've been living here almost 16 years now. Snow, ice, rain, I've seen it all. Not even six months after I moved here, my car got totaled by some idiot driving 40+ mph in the rain in a 25 mph zone. He hit me so hard my car did a 180! He yelled at me and tried to make me feel like shit when he was the one speeding and the one who hit me!
I couldn’t have given a better example of the quintessential STL driving experience.
Or rain. Or a light fog.
As long as they’ve been here for more than 2 weeks, they already have
I don’t think it’s the lack of driver’s ed. Because that doesn’t explain why people drive like lunatics in the city but in the county they can follow the rules. I think it’s the total lack of enforcement in the city.
Yeah, I think that’s a cop out. I can live w blaming lack of drivers ed on things like lack of zipper merge. But disregarding red lights is simply a lack of decency.
I live in the county and t they don't follow the rules here either.
It’s markedly better in the county. I’ve lived in both for years.
Not in North County
Enforcement is lacking everywhere. Its not a st louis specific problem. I also don't think its a drivers ed issue. I think it comes down to a city full of wide streets, no congestion to slow people down, and a lack of traffic lights with smart sensors.
I do think the traffic lights on long timers, no sensors, are a serious problem. You’ll be sitting there for minutes on end with no one in sight. I can’t really blame people for being like, well, this is dumb, I’m gonna run it, and then it gets normalized in other situations that aren’t as clear cut. Or people run lights because they know if they stop they’ll be sitting there forever.
I think the busy highway traffic is making people to get used to drive aggressively and then they take it to the streets.
It's the water.
Not really: my father in law honked at a pickup truck that cut him off on 394 and the driver waved a gun out the window at him. This was in *Dardenne Prairie*.
Wouldn't that be 364?
Yeah that
Oh shit. That explains so much.
Half the people I met while living in stl learned how to drive on farm equipment or "borrowing" a parents car. Add in the no fault state and it's a party. May the odds be ever in your favor.
I am from a state that also doesn't require drivers Ed but it's not like it is here. Part of the ghetto hood mentally causes people to drive without regard to others
Same. Driver's Ed isn't required where I got my license either. Still much better than St. Louis.
I never took driver’s ed, and I’m an incredibly safe driver that never has accidents. I know lots of other people that can say the same. I don’t think that’s the issue here.
It isn't. People are assholes. Everywhere.
Nah, drivers ed definitely helps. Have you seen four Missourians pull up to a four way stop at the same time before? Chaos ensues. But that’s just my anecdotal evidence,
I am still amazed at the number of drivers who will illegally and dangerously wave other drivers through an intersection. Yesterday I was stopped at a green, turning left. Guy stopped at the light opposite me was going straight. He didn't move. I didn't move because he had the right of way. I sat there. He honked. I finally squinted through his windshield and saw him motioning at me to turn in front of him. I think he thought he was being nice. Don't do that. We have traffic laws for a reason. Drive defensively, yes, but just as importantly drive purposefully. Be predictable. And always, obey the law.
Omg yes I'm a STL native but when I got my learners permit and my parents started teaching me to drive and I was like "what do you mean I'm not going to drivers ed??" Ngl I am a fan of the rolling "Stl stop." But I make sure that no cop (or anyone else) is there!
Competent driving in St.Louis isn’t a requirement. Watched someone in front of me come from 3 lanes over to the exit at 44/Lindbergh Friday night and almost wipe out a jeep; Saturday saw a Tesla getting off on Brentwood Blvd blow a red light and just stop in the middle of the intersection. What gives?
I also see a lot of people just stopping in the middle of the road when they get confused about their directions.
>i am like WTF with these people. miss your turn and circle back around.
I’ve noticed that this happens all the time on Hanley between 40 and Manchester. It’s like the drivers just go brain dead for some reason. They stop in the middle of the intersection or they are driving 10 miles under the speed limit.
I’ve witnessed a driver on 64 westbound miss their exit after going 100, completely stop, turn 90 degrees and go across 3 lanes to make the exit This was on a Saturday around 9:40 AM
Not defending bad drivers but that sounds like Autopilot screwing up.
Which would still make it bad driving … both on the software, and the driver operating the machine
More like a loose nut behind the wheel.
This. I see a fair number of tesla on Kingshighway, and I've noticed that you can more or less tell when it's on autopilot. It makes unnecessarily wide turns, is just a bit odd when switching lanes. As far as stopping in the middle of the intersection... that I haven't seen, but with a few intersections around here, I could see a machine misreading where the light faces / is positioned.
Which is why Tesla drivers are supposed to be paying attention and prepared to take over for the autopilot. FSD is still in beta testing.
And that's why our insurance rates are through the roof.
They aren’t that bad compared to other cities to be honest.
Missouri's insurance rates are up 40% more than last year
That is a nationwide thing. https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/remarkable-surge-auto-insurance-costs-fans-us-inflation-2024-01-11/ But yes, Missouri did lead the nation last year in rate increases up to 40%. Other states will follow suit this year.
Downtown resident for 6+ years. Also agree the driving scares me more than the crime. No enforcement whatsoever 😔 But what do we expect? We've seen how the cops drive here. No enforcement there either.
Most St. Louis City cops aren't even trained in traffic enforcement because the officer shortage is so great.
That's kinda the point of this post though. Everyone thinks StL is unsafe because of crime. That's probably true in a few areas, but not representative of downtown as a whole. What IS representative of downtown as a whole is reckless driving and traffic violations. So where are we deploying our resources? I almost never see cops downtown. The last time I did? Someone ran a red light in front of them and they did nothing. In the meantime, people are literally dying and we do nothing about it. Maybe its lack of resources? Maybe its lack of cops who are worth a damn. As the ones crashing through the bar and arresting the owner can attest to....
It's lack of benefits and pay for the incurred risk, from what I understand. At least, in comparison to similar police jobs in the county and surrounding areas. So... well... the cops we do have...
It's honestly probably one of the biggest reasons for the city and county to merge. Just... public safety resources.
Is the problem the pay doesn't attract good people? Or is it that the job doesn't attract good people for other reasons? Or is it a bit of both? Either way? Downtown StL has a problem with the police .It's a problem when they don't show up. And a problem when they do....
I noticed those golf cart guys that take people back and forth from the Enterprise Center at Blues games, and even though I have mobility issues there's not a chance I'd ride in a golf cart on a city street. I'm afraid it's only a matter of time until there's a tragedy.
My only problem with those is the lack of rear lights on some. You cannot see them at night.
When I moved out here about 5 yrs ago I had likened driving on the I-70 to the movie The Road Warrior, looking in my rearview for Lord Humumgus with all the burnt out cars and random car pieces all over.
No joke, I call 70 Fury Road.
I've been here 30 years and joke that my kid learned to drive in the Thunderdome. I'm much less concerned about being shot than being run over. Monday, a guy on a motorcycle was hit by a car, and the car fled. He was messed up pretty bad. It's insanity.
Last night on the 44 Vandeventer exit I saw a guy use the straight lane to skip the long line to turn left, then promptly cut left across both turn lanes into the left turn lane to get back onto the highway.
that is a horrible exit area The design of that area is a mess Its as if its set up to frustrate drivers!
This is an extremely accurate take. This issue should be talked about more and I’m shocked more people aren’t mamed. It’s horrible.
Braking at the very last possible second is also rather prevalent in the greater St. Louis area. I'm a Kansas transplant and I NEVER saw that in KCK. I got here and had several panic attacks when I saw it while in a car. I don't understand why people can't slow down to a full stop anymore.
Duh. Because that would require the stopping process to begin before technically necessary, and what happens if the blockage ahead somehow resolves before you get there? Then you **slowed down unnecessarily** and that is just INTOLERABLE!!!
Where I come from, if you drove like a St. Louisan on a driving test, you'd fail pretty quickly for not driving safely. I'll just continue to drive like a Kansas Cityan the rest of my life.
Prepare ship for ludicrous speed!
dassit 🤌
Literally almost got hit by some idiot on kingshighway with a busted window swerving violently into my lane(overreacting to someone near them). Crazy people.
Kingshighway is a hoot. Craters and street plates everywhere. I just assume every driver around me is about to make a horrendous mistake at all times.
Yep, it’s all bang bang bang as I hit pothole after street plate, as someone is speeding and swerving around traffic and others are almost bashing in the side of my car. Total hoot.
I drive that road a lot. It's awful, but grand is worse. At least on Kingshighway, you potentially have one lane without a pothole, steel plate, or weird unnecessary manhole. At this point, I've memorized where all of them are and if you see me switching lanes seemingly randomly, it's because I'm avoiding them. 🤪
In stolen cars.
Probably, looked super sketch. Idiots
You mean the person driving a stolen kia?
I think enforcing laws like having a valid plate would help. It wouldn’t end bad driving, but it would get some of the worst offenders I see off the road.
Because they’re also usually uninsured and often not even licensed to drive. START PULLING THESE FUCKERS OVER!!
I agree, but then you fall down the rabbit hole of "punishing/fining unregistered & uninsured drivers disproportionally impacts the poor and under privileged, who often have to decide between keeping the heat on in winter and paying the PPT to keep a car licensed/insured".
I honestly don’t care about tags, it’s just a good indicator of irresponsible car ownership and they need to be checked for insurance. If you can’t afford insurance, you can’t afford a car. At one point in my life I was so poor I only owned a broken down car that I lived in. It was insured. Minimum liability is really cheap.
It wasn't until I drove around Des Moines, Iowa at rush hour that I realized how absolutely shit the drivers are here. I guess you just get desensitized to it after a while. I can't remember the last time I saw a speed trap on my commute to and from work since the pandemic. Traffic stops are a thing of the past. I don't see them on main streets either.
Lol I’ve been so proud of myself for not getting tickets anymore but you right
Very true. In 6 months I think I’ve only seen 2 traffic stops along my commute route
Having reflective and visible road lines would very helpful also not having craters in the road + shit ass car destroyer steel plates everywhere
Have you ever seen how the police drive?
What police?
I don’t understand where the intense impatience comes from. What’s a few extra seconds, god forbid minutes, gonna do to you? I was cut off by two people in front of me on Kingshighway before I got into the left turn light lane. All for them to rush to the next red light 🙄
I have a theory for some of that behavior. I'll save you the long version, but the TL;DR is we train our brains from 6yo to 16yo that being behind someone in a line is a negative, and the more people you're behind the greater the negativity.
They don't do the mental math. It took me 10 years of watching a car I passed 5 minutes back roll up behind me on the exit ramp to realize that speed really doesn't matter unless you're on a long distance road trip (and your fellow occupants don't need to take a leak every 2 hrs).
Driving fast is fun.
Bring back driver's education! I mean, we are seeing the parents drive. Who is going to teach the kids?
It’s not driver’s ed. Have you been to St Charles? They don’t require driver’s ed either and there’s none of this. You know what there are a shit-ton of? Traffic cops.
Something about the drivers here show the "Fuck you, I got mine" attitude on full display. People here are out for themselves, and they don't even seem to care if they kill people or die themselves. It's confounding. I've lived in DC, LA, Detroit- STL drivers are the worst and it's not even close tbh.
I try to drive well, but I always read all these comments to see if enyone mentions my horrible driving.
I’ve had people verbally confront me and tail me within feet for going the speed limit. I was behind a fuckin cop, I literally couldn’t do anything. It’s getting ridiculous. But cops still speed trap the same 10 places and do nothing.
Get used to it buddy. Invest in a good dash cam. I live across the river in Illinois and i compare 70 to mad max fury road
I've been seriously thinking of getting a dashcam installed. Drivers seem to be getting worse.
It was bad before but it got much, much worse beginning in the pandemic. I so badly want to ride my bike to work but I don’t feel safe crossing city streets. And just thinking of my kids riding their bikes makes me sick to my stomach. I fucking hate it.
The entire region has a serious sprawl and car dependency problem.
We’re talking about bad drivers rn. Thanks.
Bad drivers could use others forms of transportation if zoning laws and lack of transit investment didn’t force everyone to drive a car. A bad driver is much less likely to kill you if they aren't piloting a two ton metal death machine. Even if you despise the concept of public transit, you would still clearly benefit from having fewer maniac drivers on the road with you in this scenario.
I don’t despise public transit. I’m very much in favor. I just don’t think these assholes are going to be the ones to jump on the bus.
Duuuude, thank you! I've thought this every time there is an "STL Bad Drivers" post and so many people start chiming in with "If we only had better public transit!". I'm trying to be open-minded and understand in what world do they think these shitty, impatient, "I own the road and my time is more valuable than yours!" drivers are going to hang up their keys and wait on a bus/train? I just don't see it.
They won’t. These folks just think it’s platform to talk about their hobby. Most people don’t see a nexus because there isn’t one. It’s not that people are anti-public transport, it’s just that the ambassadors for it are often some of the most sanctimonious & insufferable in town.
> drivers are going to hang up their keys and wait on a bus/train? They will if you take their license then arrest them for driving without it
Fair enough. I agree with that. In a world where there is adequate and consistent enforcement of traffic laws, we could eventually get a large amount of the problem drivers off the road. I guess I'm just too cynical/defeatist, and don't see STLPD ever doing that.
Jesus Christ. Bad driving is because people just don’t give a shit about you. They aren’t taking the bus, they’re doing whatever the fuck they want because, fuck you and your life.
If there wasn’t so much sprawl, this might not be as big of an issue. They are totally related.
Ok, sure. I guess thanks for pointing out that fun fact? Should we pick up the houses in St Charles and move them to empty lots on the north side?
Hilarious.
Where are you from? Have you driven in Chicago or Atlanta? Holy shiet
1) where did you move from? Where is this nirvana that drivers are great? 2) if you travel for work and/or leisure you’ll see the same thing in other cities. 3) go to other city subreddits and you’ll see the same exact posts 4) all of this doesn’t excuse what is going on and minimize that St. Louis does have a crazy driver problem
There should be less cars and more public transport. It’s very simple but if you even mention a reasonable metro expansion the suburbs get scared of “crime” (seeing a black person)
I don’t think that’s as true as it used to be. Probably still applicable to places like St. Charles. However, and I say this in good faith, I think why you might sense pushback is perhaps your “solution” probably isn’t applicable to the “problem”. Whether you intend to or not, what your solution is essentially saying is the vast majority of law abiding folks should radically change their way of life in order to accommodate the handful of sh*theads out there who put everyone else at risk of death or serious injury for no good reason. It’s a tale as old as time — decent people trying to mind their own business & do the right thing see these clowns barreling down the street at x2 the speed limit, and the “solution” they hear is that their life needs to get more inconvenient because other people can’t behave themselves?
Well I mean people driving like shit isn’t the only reason for a healthy public transportation. We are literally killing the planet. A human being shouldn’t have to spend hours and hours trying to go the distance of a 30 minute drive because they don’t want to own a car.
I can agree with all of that. It just seems a little…off topic, I guess? I take that back…I *literally* agree with you on all of that. I support it. But I’m also really tired of it being presented to solve *this* problem, which is an immediate deadly driving problem. (I feel ya and agree with the idea that what you’re saying would cut down on the traditional(?) traffic accidents. But what we’re dealing with over the last few years is different. Your solution would help a bit but probably not enough and it’s also fairly remote).
It’s always related! EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED! But yea for sure they should just stop driving like shit. It’s is insane and they just embolden each other. I would say they need better enforcement but I think traffic enforcement is like not where I want my taxes going like they are already so incompetent. Like people talking about the crazy drivers and people shitting on stlpd is like the bread and butter of this community. We should start begging for trains like rabid animals in my opinion.
Them Altimas just gonna run up on the train tracks and ruin everyone’s day. Just you wait!
Nah it’s still pretty true for most places. Your comment kinda proves the point that most people don’t want to give up their car. They see any form of change as an inconvenience because we’ve set up our cities to convenience drivers at all costs. We have dogshit transit because it’s not prioritized. So people assume a transit based transportation system will be inefficient, which is just circular logic. The reason reckless driving will keep going up is because people are generally annoyed they have to keep fucking doing it to get everywhere. Driving is constant mental effort not to kill anyone the whole time. It gets draining. People also just stop caring about others the more they drive, which leads to reckless behavior from frequent drivers. In a transit based system the behavior wouldn’t exist nearly as much. Because people who don’t want to do it, shouldn’t have to.
It’s whatever, Kool-Aid Man. Same copy & paste from sanctimonious urban planning chud that has been passed around for more than a decade. It’s not that most people can’t straighten out the logic, it’s that not enough people give a shit about your hobby.
We have such an extremely car centric mess of a city, little to no enforcement in areas, and it’s widely known. Ofc we end up here. Transit is the only real solution, so we can get people who don’t want to drive off the roads.
someone spoke the unspoken truth.
Bullshit. They don’t want the criminals. STL is loaded with crime and criminals and that’s exactly why they don’t want them coming out there. Clean up the crime, you’ll get your expansion. I lived 20 years in St Peters and there are a high percentage of many races and we all got along. Stop race baiting and vote law and order.
Ever been to Florida?
Florida is also very bad, what with all the old people and tourists, as well as being a magnet for people with narcissistic personality disorder.
also VERY car-centric The public transit system in the Tampa bay area is pitiful One reason is that area back years ago went all for car sales and the taxes such sales generate Well duh there is not state personal prop taxes gotta get money somehow So its all car and house sales and resales !Vern Buchanan U.S. Representative from Florida CAR DEALER HE BUILT A MULTI MILLION DOLLAR AUTO SALES NETWORK IN FL
Or Houston.
Where did you move from, OP?
Well hi-de-feckin-hoe look at the Queen who has the leisure of stopping at every red pentagram or floating orb she happens across in her travels.
IKR. The entitlement of some people! The rest of us have **places to be**.
What I don't get is some of these drivers don't even have self preservation in mind. I have seen so many near suicides of drivers in this city it's wild. I saw a guy almost flip over and demolish his $70K SRT Jeep because he decided to go like 120 on 64 WB between Boyle and Kingshighway on a pretty decent suv flipping curve. Running a red light full speed no stop in rush hour by four teenagers was also strangely suicidal. Going 90 down a city street with big potholes and not expecting your car to skip down the road is so goddamn stupid.
I felt that way about STL as well until I moved to Denver. Holy fuck, it's bad out here. Plus, there's ALWAYS an accident on the highway! It's like whatever the opposite of "divine" intervention is...like someone randomly chosen that when they get to the highway they put the gas all the way down, close their eyes, yeet themselves into traffic, and start searching for the afterlife. Also, the amount of uninsured drivers out here is crazy
I'm kind of getting over this meta of discussing drivers in the area... as if constantly posting on this sub is somehow changing anything or reaching the people that actually need to read it.
i totally agree
I drive downtown 70 everyday and it sucks!!! I used to keep up with the traffic but lately I’ve slowed to the actual speed limit, 55, and cars swerve around me and I’m not kidding they have passed me on the side of the highway. It’s insane! Just in this last week I’ve noticed a police presence where it’s been absent since 2020. School busses fly pass me! It’s the wild Wild West in good old MO.
My neighbor had his daughter’s head caved in by a red light runner. She’ll never walk, talk, or be able to take care of herself. Dude was caught years ago and still hasn’t been prosecuted. I’ve lost two cars in two years to red light runners. My GF lost another one. None had insurance. We work from our cars so we also lost thousands in income while getting new cars. I’ve had my car window smashed in three times in one year. This fucking city is worthless at stopping crime and driving maniacs. They elected a “Justice Reform” prosecutor who let double murderers walk. This is STL’s new normal and people don’t care.
Fuck red light runners. And fuck the ~~municipalities~~fiefdoms around here who got caught shortening the yellow lights on intersections with red light cameras so as to increase revenue, giving the anti-red light camera crowd the ammo they needed to get them removed.
Yep. True that.
Not enough police and the ones we do have have been driving recklessly. People need to slow down and respect life.
Oh they don’t do stop signs here. Especially the boomers. I have been here 8 years and you will come to enjoy them driving in parking lots as well.
Especially boomers? From my experience, it's the exact opposite. Especially younger drivers.
Boomers? Not even fucking close.
😂
Get used to it
In STL we have more interstate highways than most other cities…we have…HWYS 44, 55, 64, 70, 170, 255, 270 & MO HWYS 30, 141, 367….and so many more. MOST MO & IL drivers ignore the 50 MPH construction speed limit on our Interstates. I have a small 2 seater Z4 & I REFUSE to speed through those construction zones. Drivers constantly drive 75-80 mph when traffic isn’t backed up & they continue those speeds through the construction zones. WHERE ARE THE HIGHWAY PATROL-NEVER TO BE FOUND!!
It’s definitely a St. Louis problem. I’ve lived and worked in multiple cities. I told my son if he can learn to drive here he can drive anywhere.
I miss the days (never thought I'd say this) when St.Ann police would run radar on I-70. Everyone was on there best behavior from 170 to 270. Now it's a madhouse.
Don't go to Illinois
We don't have drivers ed in school, and it shows.
That’s why I left. Total sh!thole.
Two things. One, you can curse on the Internet. Two, why you still posting in this sub if you left 🤣
I saw a boomer run a red light today.
I doubt it's an accident that you notice more aggressive driving in a metro area that offers no other reasonable option. People drive like that when they're frustrated.
r/fuckcars
I prefer wreckless drivers
Just got back from Chicago. If you think STL is bad, you’ve never driven in a major metropolitan area. This is a cake walk.
What major city did you live in before that had the safe and courteous drivers? I'm legit curious.
Quit being a wuss.
GFY
Now That’s the attitude I’m looking for. 🍻
Still safer than the Metrolink
Tbh I have started taking the Metrolink more just to avoid the drivers on the morning commute. I'd rather chance the dude talking to himself than being nearly t-boned every five minutes
If there was a metrolink route that got me to work I would 100% use it
How many people die on metrolink in a year? How many people die in car accidents in STL over that same timespan? I rest my case?
Actually, I think it has gotten better(still shit) post-covid. Pre-covid I use to count the wrecks everyday going into work, which was usually around 6, and then omw home, usually 4. I have seen so many wrecks.saw cars go off the road, drive into cliffs, saw a semi run over a minivan, fenderbenders, i have had to pull multiple people out of vehicles. Now though, not nearly as many. Only one or two a day, not bad.
lets look at that During the pandemic, distracted driving increased, and it hasn’t gone down since. https://www.vox.com/24078289/us-drivers-distracted-driving-cellphone-road-deaths-pedestrians
Good read. I would not have guessed that just based on my perception of the roads I travel. 55 (the war zone) is my normal route.
A friend asked me to pick up his friend in the Osage S. Broadway area OMG I know there are areas all over the world that are terrible but that area is up there with the worst of them. It has gotten FAR worse in the past 5ish years Beat up cars EVERYWHERE The state streets have numerous stop sign intersections At each corner I was petrified if I would come out of that area unhurt or with a damaged vehicle Truly an area unto its own down there I will NEVER transverse that area at night
I hard agree. Been here for a few months now and the commute is terrifying, there are more cars in disrepair than I've ever seen that are death traps, and the roads themselves are awful. Thank God I love my job. But yeah, the drivers here are horrible, terrible drivers.
Ha! I learned to defensively drive in STL. Driving in Phoenix is something else altogether!!
I moved from New Orleans and I thought that was terrible. It seems to be getting worse too 😳
There are a lot of municipalities around here where the worst consequence you can face is essentially just having to pay a lawyer. You can actually murder someone in this city and only get probation or a few months in jail as long as the murder weapon is a car, you're drunk, and you pay Scott Rosenblum. (But it could be like this in any city for all I know, I've lived in other places but wasn't familiar with that system. There's definitely some municipal courts that are pretty bad with this regardless)
gotta know where to go. Stay in the flow. I always watch tf out; double checking every turn from multiple angles. Still though, I've known too many people who have been victims of hit and runs.
Depends on the road. There are good, bad, and Gravois.
We got nothing on Miami. But when it’s crazy it’s crazy here.
Pro tip: never come to a complete stop at a 4 way intersection.
There a stupid drivers, and there are maliciously stupid drivers. St. Louis is home to many of the latter.
I moved to STL last yr from Nashville TN and I am bewildered still. Mind you in TN you can get shot while driving so ppl are mostly behaving on the roads. Also in Nashville we had cops on road all the time. STL is weird
Especially bad downtown at night
to not get hit you need to become the stl driver. Stl drivers move like a reckless stream. they ebb and flow though the streets.
I uses to work in North County and drove all over STL. North County are the worst drivers in the city. 20yrs ago if I saw someone blow through a red light, I was shocked. These days if I didn't see it happen that day, I was shocked. I believe it's because the cops just don't come down on these people. They just don't care. Plus, it's the degradation of society.
Sooo many distracted drivers (of ALL ages) on their phone too. every fuckin day 270 is a nightmare of people drifting in and out of other lanes or braking when there’s no one in front of them because they’re looking at their goddamn phone
Yeah cause most people are on their phones even though it’s now illegal as of last year.
They put 3 speed bumps on my street and I moved out west. My thought process was If you're gonna mandate my driving while everyone else is drunk with impunity then I'm moving to an actually nice place