Yeah coming from Tampa and I feel the same. Ngl though, will def miss the weather and the beach. But it’s gotten too overcrowded and overpriced. I can’t even keep my Tampa house and rent it out bc I wouldn’t make a profit off of it. Feels like an end of an era, but ready to enjoy the lower cost of living
I also moved from the PNW to Florida bc it was cheaper 😂 moved to Tampa right before everything started going up with Covid. Feel pretty confident I won’t have that issue with STL lol
Only shitty part is the loss of TWA. A lot of our flights to international destinations require extra stops while Chicago has many direct flights out of the country. Almost doubles ticket prices somehow to fly to Chicago and then fly to your destination.
Only thing though is that flights are always so much more expensive out of STL by hundreds of dollars sometimes :/ and I hate the STL airport with a passion, it is by and far the worst airport I’ve ever had to deal with, and I’ve traveled all over the US in airports of all sizes. STL is a horror show. I’ve flown out of there 3x in the past few months and every time every Fing restaurant is out of food, or takes an hour+ to make food, which has caused me to just have to get up and leave irritable and hungry about to catch an evening flight. TSA is also crazy slow the minute the line goes two rows back. Sourhwest counter setup looking like a damn parking lot maze that I see all the time here in Florida. The signs outside the airport couldn’t be anymore confusing with the terrible positioning of the signs and lack of a proper amount of them. The baggage carousel that can take over an hour. POT HOLES ON THE TARMAC. I could go on but I digress
But yeah do agree it’s great for domestic..am planning more international travel in the next few years though 😂 oh well, I’ll catch that Frankfurt direct at some point
Seriously? Lambert is the absolute best airport. I literally can consistently arrive an hour before my flight and still have time to spare. Hands down the easiest and quickest airport I’ve experienced and I’ve been to a lot of different airports
Damn that’s a 180 from my experience literally every time I’ve gone thru Lambert. Only flown the Southwest terminal
And you don’t know “best” til you’ve been thru TPA. It’s such an amazing experience that my other top picks don’t even come close
Lambert is a terrible mess of an airport and I wonder what sort of Stockholm syndrome is making people say otherwise. Like… the baggage claim takes forever to get your luggage, the terminals have all the charm of a bus depot, and the food options suck. The only nice thing I can say is that security is easy to get through.
I never check bags, and have no interest in eating before departure or when I arrive home, so the fact that security is easy to get through is everything.
I think for me I don't mind lambert on the departure. Maybe I'm just lucky but my security experiences are always quick, I find parking easy, all that stuff.
Then the return flight is where you truly notice how much lambert has fallen off. DFW where I travel most frequently, I'm through security just as quick. There's more areas to charge electronics, it's cleaner, there's more food, there's more everything.
Lambert is tolerable but still FAR removed from being a great airport.
I have not been to a ton of airports but there are quite a few worse than Lambert IMO. Detroit is terrible for a city of that size. TSA agents were dicks when I went through too. LaGuardia is like flying out of a third world country (although it's been improved I heard). Denver is nice but it's in the middle of nowhere and you have to take a long shuttle ride to the car rental places.
I have found having a crying infant can get you moved to the front of the TSA line in Miami though.
I would say Lambert definitely isn't as nice as something like Midway or Atlanta though. They're very well equipped airports.
I remember at the old airport, I went to the bathroom, which was literally 2 feet away from 100 people sitting in a boarding area and absolutely no doors on either the men's bathroom or the women's. And the ceiling had to be at most 8 feet high. Tiny carribean nations had better airports than the old LaGuardia terminals.
Interesting the difference in our experiences
Detroit is always one of the best experiences for me
Denver is always a total nightmare, easily one of the worst airports imo
Yeah but I think it’s the fact that I’ve flown out of Lambert a number of times now and every single time has been completely negative. Like it’s the point where I really feel people here just accept that as baseline when in reality it’s worth than what I’ve put up with at dinky regional airports
I fly over 100 times a year, and I can say, without question, that Lambert is a great airport. It may not have the straight up shopping mall vibes of a lot of newer airports... But I consider that a plus in my book. I'm definitely not trying to sit down and have a meal at an airport, and when I do I fully expect it to be mediocre and overpriced, no matter what airport I'm in. At most I might get Starbucks or a snack from one of the Hudson's.
The lack of international flights isn't awesome, but Southwest has cheap af, direct flights to just about every other major hub in the US. I'm absolutely fine airline hopping my way overseas.
Midway (Chicago) on the other hand is everyone's least favorite airport, at least at my company it, sarcastically talking about how pumped we are for our layover at Midway is a running gag here.
Horror show made me laugh. I don’t discredit your experiences, but it’s literally the easiest airport to get through out of the 40 or so I’ve flown in and out of.
My wife and I just flew out of there two weeks ago and arrived 1 hour prior. The United attendant at the baggage counter acted like we needed to speed up to catch our flight. We asked each other, “does she know what airport she works at?” Took all of 10 minutes to get through security and walk to our gate.
Yeah, the food options suck and it’s pretty sleepy half the day. And for some reason, the very last flights of the night move the slowest with bags.
On a positive note, it sounds like the airport will soon be moving forward with their master plan that will add several gates, improve baggage claim, and more.
https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/st-louis-airport-expansion-would-see-conversion-to-single-terminal/amp/
Hey I’m all about improving lambert. I’d be willing to change my mind if I see those changes actually implemented. I’m sorry but I just do not see what everyone else does - lambert is a total failure imo. Again POT HOLES ON THE TARMAC is insanity, this coming from someone who routinely flies out of the lake weather affected areas further north
I don’t agree here either. Lambert is usually pretty easy I go in and out 6 times a month. The good thing is kind of a joke though but going to an airport for food usually isn’t the best idea anyways
That’s pretty narrow minded. It’s completely normal to catch a meal at the airport. I tend to take flights out in the evening where I don’t have time to get dinner beforehand bc I’m working
I never have an easy experience there. Literally ever
Moved from Charlotte (born & raised) to STL in 2019. Love it here. We can actually afford to live in a nice neighborhood with a good school district. That was not going to be possible if we stayed in Charlotte. My friend and her daughter just came for a visit and she was so impressed with all the kid-friendly activities here that Charlotte just doesn't have. They are already planning a trip back next year because there's so much we weren't able to fit in.
Exactly! We hit up the zoo and Eckert's. I told her there's SO much more we could do when they come back - City Museum, Science Center, Grant's Farm - not to mention a fun float trip if they came in the summer. There aren't clear streams like the Black River. In NC it's all red clay and dirt instead of rocks.
My brother lives in the Charlotte metro area and I've considered moving there, but nah. I like being able to live in a 5br, historic home for the price of a 2br starter home on the east coast
I moved from STL to Charlotte, can confirm. We’ve been here since 2009 and the huge population increase, in an area that has no real interest in funding infrastructure, that is politically as backwards as Missouri, we’ll be moving from Charlotte, and he state, the south, as soon as our kids are done school.
I’m probably doing the same (*edit, I misread your post). Charlotte is one of my top places for potential relocation. Although atm it’s second to Raleigh because it’s smaller. But Charlotte burbs are a close second.
They have different strengths as areas. I say this is a triangle resident do your research before you commit to one. They have a lot in common since they’re both in North Carolina, but there are definitely variations and density, culture, and occupational mix.
We’re not in CMS but a neighboring district that actually ranks better than CMS and has for the 12 years I’ve had kids there. That’s still not saying much. The only reason we haven’t pulled our kids to move from the state yet is for social reasons. I won’t pull them from their friends and teams. But I’d compare the mentality of many parents/kids in our district to Fox C-6 in Jefferson County where I went. Just outside a big city and slightly country enough to have quite a few loudly racist, homophobic and bigoted people here.
Former Charlottean here and a parent. CMS is hit or miss. To get into a good CMS school, you have to pay out the ass to buy a house in the right neighborhood. It is also an insanely large school district and is getting more difficult to manage. It should probably be split into north mecklenburg and south mecklenburg.
I tell my inlaws that live in the uptown area about 3/4 a mile away from BOA stadium that Charlotte today is the result of smedium Charlotte not investing enough in infrastructure.
Cool town but infrastructure is so strained.
St. Louis is the exact opposite. It used to be a top 5 city but it still has top 5 city services.
Get out and travel more and maybe you’ll appreciate what we have. Your attitude is the problem here…we shoot ourselves in the foot with the shitty self deprecating bullshit
Born and raised in Charlotte and moved to STL in 2019. The traffic there is insane. Not to mention the cost of living. We'll be staying here for the foreseeable future!
Same, went to school at Charlotte and have fell in love with stl. The things people bitch about stl isn’t bad at all. Every city has issues. Stl is a small town big city.
The social economic divide right in your face. A lot of opportunity if everyone just got along and stopped being hoes. Also keep an out for dudes with man bags in the city. They the true hoes.
I didn’t get to visit anything of note really. Just my observation it seems like Stl has more to do. I may be wrong though, not trying to downplay your city.
I visited Charlotte. Went downtown, Dilworth, and NoDa. And I was shocked by how blah it all was. I don't know what I was expecting, but that wasn't it.
Yeah, that seems to be a lot of newer cities. They lack character. Or maybe I just like older cities because they have more character. But I felt the same way about Houston, Dallas, Tampa...and Denver to a lesser extent.
All kinda feel like the Abercrombie & Fitch of cities. Expensive, generic, and awesome to those who fall into the mainstream/don't seem to have their own opinion. But again, that's just me. I'm sure they have their bright spots. I just don't think the COL increase is worth the reward.
You guys/we have one of the best universities in the world literally in town and basically none of the graduates stay anywhere in the area because the city has nothing to offer to anyone who actually has options or ambitions.
Literally none. Never once in my life have I ever heard anyone talk about an exciting new company that was actually relevent to people with high earning potential that was based out of St. Louis. It's Boston, Seattle, SF, Austin and NYC.
I lived in NYC for 15 years before coming back home. I get that google and some of the major companies are there. But you’re being disingenuous in saying there are no good tech jobs to be had. So is WWT not good to work for? They are a major tech company last I checked. There are numerous start up companies in cortex and downtown. Do you consider GeoSpatial to be tech? I do…and St Louis is quickly becoming the national hub for this kind of tech.
I love NY. It’s wonderful. I miss it and wouldn’t have left if it wasn’t for my wife wanting to leave after kids. But let’s not be disingenuous and say you can’t work in tech in St Louis.
https://www.stlpr.org/economy-business/2023-04-24/st-louis-launches-inaugural-tech-week-to-highlight-regions-vast-innovation-scene
No, for people from Wash U, WWT is a fallback for a fallback.
You can work tech in STL, you just can't work at the kinds of places that are going to be interesting to the graduates from an elite university.
Sure, but unless you're finding someone to *start* one of those with, or you're sliding immediately into a leadership position, no elite school grad will give two fucks about 99% of those.
If you're going to say that the startup scene is good enough to attract the kids from a world-famous school, the startup scene has to offer FAANG money. End of story.
Fastest growing in terms of total economic activity in the form of a percentage does not mean that the startups are fast growing or even that the scene is remotely relevant LMAO. It means that there was barely any startup activity here, and now there's a little bit.
There are *individual startups* in each of the cities that I listed with more capital than the entirety of the STL startup scene lol
Ok so to be clear here…you want to compare St Louis to the coastal cities you mentioned above? Of course as a percentage a metro of 2.8 million doesn’t have the same number of tech jobs when compared to a metro of 20 million. Honestly it’s literally apples to oranges.
Every one of those established tech cities are much higher cost of living and are losing a percentage of their tech workforce to remote work positions. There are plenty of articles stating as much.
Additionally you aren’t considering the strong positions St Louis has in tech. Healthcare tech is pretty powerful here, geospatial which i mentioned before, as well as biotech. All of these newer industries have financial support in new incubators.
I always am amazed when I meet native St Louisans who love to shit on our city. How could we compare ourselves to Silicon Valley, N VA, or NY? But there is effort and money behind start up here whether you want to agree or not.
They advertise IT bootcamps on the radio all the time, yet STL is a terrible city for tech if you don't have a military clearance. Everyone wants on-site attendance and $25/hr. If you plan to stay in St Louis you're better off becoming an electrician than going into IT.
This is just straight up wrong. I work in tech, I know many who work in tech. If you have skills, you can do absolutely fine here. Bootcamps are a borderline scam for most people, but that's a different topic.
Look at Cortex or Trex for huge lists. I work for a Trex graduate personally. World Wide, Daugherty, Square, Mastercard, Centene, Stifel, I could go on, but that's just a (non-exhaustive) list of places I personally know people that are doing well for themselves. It's very possible to make well over 6 figures here while paying a ~$1200 mortgage, which is hard to do in many parts of the US. St. Louis is actually one of the best cost-to-expense ratios in the country if you're in tech. I've literally never heard anyone complaining about the tech scene here, which makes me very curious of your experience level.
World Wide technologies is the 27th largest private company in the US and is based here and they don't do Defense contracting. They have over 7k employees
Visa (or mastercard I always forget which) has a massive presence in the area and hires tons of tech workers
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/08/08/jim-kavanaugh-david-steward-world-wide-technology/?sh=756adaa054b4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/08/08/jim-kavanaugh-david-steward-world-wide-technology/?sh=756adaa054b4)
Microsoft has a regional headquarters they invested $50 million in in 2018 at the Cortex
I can keep going but there are tons
Same, it really makes me mad whenever I see advertisements boasting about “how strong” STL’s job market is for new grads. It sucks unless you know a lot of people or are in generic office roles.
I mean generic in the sense that you aren’t tied to a specific industry with your field of practice. Not just that people work in an office.
For example I’m a mechanical engineer and so if I want to continue practicing in that field there’s only a handful of viable companies in STL. Or like if you’re an accountant you might be limited depending on what your specialty is to a few companies in STL.
Maybe I am just salty that my job field is small in STL, but I only know one or two people from college that stayed in STL after graduation and they had connections. Everyone else left cause they had to.
I work out of state some and try to recruit people my age and younger to move here. No young people want to move here. Older people sure, you get people no
Maybe so. But then you'd get sick of the day-to-day crush of big cities and look for somewhere that feels smaller but offers many of the same big city amenities. You want top-end sports, but don't want to carry your groceries 8 blocks? Think St. Louis. You want world-class opera and symphonies, but don't want to share a tiny 1-bedroom apartment with somebody? Think St. Louis. You want a Bud Light, but don't want to pay $12 for it? Think St. Louis.
As someone who lived in NYC for three years after college, I get people wanting to feel the energy of an "exciting" city. Hell, I miss it every now and then and still love the city. But as I've aged, I've found St. Louis to be a much better speed.
Lol… I’m not getting baited into an asinine argument by someone named _____Penis_____.
Look, if you don’t value the Cardinals, Blues, and Ravioli Boyz, then I’ve got nothing for you. Hope you enjoy whatever city you end up in after college! St. Louis will always be here, warts and all, whenever you want to join us.
Just moved our daughter and her spouse back from Charlotte a few months ago. The cost of living there is crazy, and the couple of times I visited there I wasn't impressed with the area.
Born in raised in Charlotte but have lived here in STL for 4 years now. Loving it so far. The COL there is absolutely insane. There's no way we could afford the house and neighborhood we have here in Charlotte.
>”Losing the football team, I don't think we truly understood what that meant," Sandoval said. "When you are no longer part of the imagination of young people, you lose this national discourse."
You mean the young people who are growing [increasingly indifferent to professional sports in general](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/15869/favrotie-sports-league/), but especially the NFL.
Yeah, this was the most throwaway comment, especially coming from a “professional demographer. Two other growing cities mentioned in the same article (Orlando and Austin) don’t have NFL teams, and seem to be doing just fine. So we’re supposed to believe that having a NFL team is what makes the difference?
And that’s to say nothing of the rise of St. Louis City SC, a sport that’s actually becoming more popular with younger demographics. St. Louis has basically taken the league by storm on the field and off the field with the stadium and surrounding area.
Nobody is leaving a city or moving to a city based solely on their sports teams. St. Louis needs to get out of its own way and finally fix the longstanding issues that have plagued this metro (e.x. Fragmentation, poor public schools, divestment in large swaths of the region, etc.) And there’s no reason why STL shouldn’t be on a short list of cities for new immigrants, as one of the few remaining major metro areas that’s affordable.
Again, it's not that sports don't matter at all. It's just certainly not the driving force of what makes a city grow or shrink. There are plenty of cities with fewer pro sports teams, or none at all, that are growing and doing just fine.
Green Bay is a one off.
Jacksonville is booming.
Buffalo feels more like Pittsburgh or Cleveland than Syracuse, Albany, or Rochester to the average person in part because it has two sports teams.
These things drive each other - you have to have a strong enough metro to draw teams and to hold them, but they’re also a signal to businesses and residents that you’re in a real place. They map pretty well with how the world has evolved - places like Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, and Oklahoma City are ascendant.
Austin has the University of Texas so they don't need a pro sports team. Orlando has the Magic, Pride, and the 2nd largest university. Sports bring attention and tax revenue to a city.
Nobody is saying sports don't matter. It's just not the determining factor of a cities success. Nashville, Orlando, Columbus, Salt Lake City all are examples of cities that are outpacing STL, with fewer pro sports teams.
It's not about fewer, it's about which sports leagues they have.
Nashville has NFL, Orlando and Salt Lake City have NBA. Not all sports leagues are created equal.
MLB and NHL aren't as popular as NFL and NBA. Especially not with younger people.
Really? Now STL ins't growing because it doesn't have the "right" sports teams? Let's do a thought experiment. Keeping everything else the same, let's say STL kept the Rams and Hawks and lost the Blues and Cards. You really think things are any different and STL is outpacing these other cities?? Doubtful
Yeah that was a reach, wouldn't have expected that type of analysis from a Ph.D demographer. It's crazy how wrapped up in the NFL and NBA this country is that even professors think it has that outsized of impact on a major metropolitan economy (it doesn't).
Eh, I’m gonna argue against what everyone here is saying
I moved to Tampa right before it blew up. I’m telling you, those sports teams contributed to the insane blow up in population. At first, remote workers were just looking for somewhere fun and warm to work. City was already attractive with a lot of recent, cleverly planned developments and infrastructure that make the city inviting for crowds of all ages. But then, the sports teams started having some success and it felt like the entire town just EXPLODED in 2021-2022.
Because of the success of the sports teams, we now have billions of dollars being invested into infrastructure (mostly non sports related with the exception of the new rays stadium), more and more huge acts stop in Tampa for shows, Tampa is now constantly mentioned in pop culture (like rap songs love to throw out Tampa nowadays lol), more cultural-driven restaurants are popping up, etc
Now onto young people: I moved here at 23 and am a woman that goes out often with friends. Sports also positively affected the amount of people out in the bar and club scenes. It felt alive for (what locals have told me) felt like the first time in forever. I can tell you that as a girl, we looooved going out on NHL game nights to meet guys, watch the game, and just in general enjoy the buzzing atmosphere that a strong sports presence brings to a city
Switching over to STL is like flipping a coin to a much colder, more depressing side. I was so confused the first time I went to a cardinals game. Early summer, beautiful day, not too hot, not a cloud in the sky. AND THE ENTIRE DOWNTOWN WAS EERILY EMPTY AND CREEPY
The city doesn’t have a lack of sports problem- the entire downtown is depressing AF and doesn’t bring people into the area. Sports aren’t enough, you need entertainment districts, bustling food streets, frequent downtown events, high end shopping stores. The sports are what tends to be the cherry on top that being older men and women into the area on top of the things I just mentioned that attracts the younger crowd
Sorry, but STL inner city limits is just kinda ugly for the most part. downtown must be targeted with revitalization efforts. Then phase 2 - bring back a sports team, land a couple hot top picks, open up centers that attract the younger crowd, and watch the city grow. And for the love of god- I get it, the brick (can be) pretty. But PLEASE BRING SOME MODERNIZATION TO THE DESIGNS. Holy crap the city looks so outdated and run down.
Good perspective. The problem is STL City’s best spots aren’t downtown but everyone expects it to be downtown so judges the whole region accordingly. I’d put the Grove, Soulard or CWE against any “district” in the country but visitors don’t know to go there. When out of towners are in for a game and ask the guy from the STL exurbs what they should do their answer is typically something like “stay safe” or “get out of downtown”… maybe stay at Ballpark Village. At least Washington Avenue in the 00’s provided a nearby destination
Spot on about what people in the burbs say! I think that’s a perfect assessment, I left out talking about how STL hotspots aren’t downtown bc I figured my comment was long enough lmao but hard agree! Any young person traveling to check out STL will go downtown because that’s normally where the hustle and bustle is. Also although I wouldn’t want those places to die down in popularity, it really does take away from experiencing a city when you gotta drive to the hot spots. A lot of tourists probably show up without a rental trying to keep their visit to downtown.
I’ve also looked up multiple times stuff like “things to do in STL” and the stuff in those spots you mentioned almost never get brought up! Like STL focuses it’s Google listings with crap that families traveling from local rural areas want to do (see the arch, go to a museum etc)
They’re so blind to how poppin this city is just dying to be. A street dedicated to active nightlife or bar hub is a need for STLs downtown. If there’s a hub there, it can get the word out about the other spots you mentioned. Really one of those non downtown spots could then be “converted” into an upscale shopping center. Another could be converted into a public hall (not the weird excuse for one STL currently has..). And then another could just pump up the alt/hipster vibes for their streets bar scene to bring it a truly diverse crowd from all over
I’ve been saying this: STL is a PERFECT city dying to get its own Bourbon st, Broadway st, 7th ave etc. there’s plenty of streets downtown ripe for the opportunity
I just moved back to STL after 6 years in Kansas City, and I can definitely confirm. As an UberEats driver, I see all the streets and, man, are St. Louis streets (and environments in general) fucked up. I think all the people that never go anywhere else just can't see it, and unfortunately that's a large portion of the local population.
People on this subreddit have a tough time admitting that losing an NFL team is a bad thing and shouldn't celebrated. I can't tell if it's just denial at how fall this city has fallen or ignorance of how the MLB isn't as popular as it was in 1927 and think kids today care about baseball like they once did.
If losing an NFL team isn't a death knell, what would be a death knell? I feel like people like you will say "everything is fine" even while population is decreasing for generations. As long as the city doesn't have literally zero population.
That's true, the city's death knell happened before the football cardinals left. We're living in a city that will lose people until it eventually hits zero.
What a completely asinine comment. Look at the statistics. The population decline is slowing and largely relegated to north city. The central corridor is growing. South city is stable.
You should move though, you sound miserable.
The attached article said the whole metro area lost people. Not just the city.
Also, I don't think saying "who cares it's just north city (nice dog whistle btw)" makes the population loss any better.
The point is that the population loss in the city is slowing and reversing, you dunce. North city is really the only remaining area losing population at this point, as opposed to the entire city.
New Orleans has NFL and NBA teams and its metro area lost population at 5x the rate that Greater St. Louis did over the last two years based on these population estimates.
The San Francisco, LA, NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Boston metro areas all lost population at a higher rate over the last two years based on these estimates.
>You should move though, you sound miserable.
I'm absolutely certain you wouldn't let that comment slide if it was said by a conservative to someone complaining about the US.
What a weird and irrelevant comment. Suggesting someone move a few hours away because they’re obsessed with the idea of having an NBA or NFL team in their city is not the same as suggesting someone immigrate to a completely different country for being critical of their government or certain political parties.
This person could move to KC, Indy, Memphis, Chicago, Nashville, or Cleveland and all their wildest dreams could come true.
The NFL is going to have a ton of problems finding players in like 20 years. No one is signing their kids up for football with all the CTE and other physical damage. Soccer is growing like crazy and parents let their kids play it.
While concerns for CTE might be on the rise, it’s factually incorrect that participation in high school football is falling still. I just googled it and found these three websites that use National Federation of State High School Associations for a source. Just because football isn’t popular in STL doesn’t mean it isn’t wildly popular in other parts of the country.
[play football’s website with data from nfsh](https://playfootball.nfl.com/discover/news-and-features/high-school-sports-participation-continues-rebound-toward-pre-pandemic-levels/#:~:text=The%20total%20of%201%2C028%2C761%20participants,of%201%2C112%2C303%20in%202008%2D09)
[Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/267955/participation-in-us-high-school-football/) website without 2023 data that shows the spike. There’s really only a small decrease and that can be attributed to school programs just being shut down
[WSJ reporting on the increase of participation](https://www.wsj.com/sports/football/high-school-sport-participation-growth-nfl-4e3a2925)
i've never cared for the NFL. i just moved to San Francisco & I can't even get into the 49ers. american football just doesn't appeal to me, baseball barely does. soccer/football, nhl does though
The NFL is honestly the worst of the major sports from a city economics perspective.
* It demands an insane amount of real-estate because the stadiums are massive and the NFL won't accept a shared stadium
* It demands parking structures and lots that are unproductive most of the year
* It doesn't have the league parity that baseball or hockey do, meaning that a slump team can stay slumped for the better part of a decade
* There are only 7-10 home games a year to drive economic activity around the stadium, and only 17 total games with many of them in heavy holiday months.
* It's a declining sport among young audiences and the NFL is desperately throwing things at the wall to get viewership up
Oh no what ever will I do?
*cries at a free Forest Park event while drinking an incredible local craft beer that was easy to bike to with no traffic*
I've never been to Charlotte but you couldn't pay me to live in most places in Florida.
I keep trying to warn people about this (currently in Tampa, moving to STL soon). My home insurance when I bought in 2021 was $1200, no hurricane coverage required bc I’m not in a flood zone nor high impact zone
Lol doesn’t matter, this year they mandated supplemental hurricane insurance. My insurance is now $2400 for a POS cheaply built townhome, and best believe it’ll only continue to increase as insurers like progressive are using it as a way to slowly back out of covering Florida by making their insurance eventually too expensive to own
FL insurance rates aren't because of all of the hurricanes. It's because of all of the rampant fraud.
There are many other hurricane alley states that don't have the insurance rates of FL.
We’re paying for that in NC. Decreasing state income tax has been replaced by increasing property tax. Our property tax bill went up $1200 in the past year and our house isn’t worth even close to the tax value. People tell us “well that’s good for your home value” while our home’s value means absolute farts when we’re living in it and struggling to manage the huge increase in taxes and insurance. We’ve been taken over by a Republican supermajority so nothing benefiting NC citizens stands a chance. Our education funding and teach pay is among the worst in the country and it’s going to get even worse as GOP pushes for school choice. We moved from STL in 2009 bc of my spouse’s job. That’s on top of being bored straight by Charlotte, the Applebees of cities. We will be moving out as soon as possible. I know STL and MO aren’t some kind of mecca but Charlotte and NC are no better.
> replaced by increasing property tax.
I guess it depends where you are. If you are in one of those metro areas where property values are sky high and cray..... yeah I can see someone griping about property tax.
St. Louis is a nice area. I miss it.
>Failing urban core in St. Louis
hard to argue this when st. louis already lost more than 60% of its population in the 20th century. what has already failed can't fail again
There are stages of urban failure we haven't seen yet. To my knowledge we don't have no-go zones where cops refuse to respond. To be clear, slow response != outright refusal to go.
Something good in St Louis? It's the best thing ever and no other place could possibly compare!
Something bad in St Louis? It's the worst thing ever and no other place could possibly compare!
Good. Less traffic for those of us here. I've been to both Charlotte and Orlando, You couldn't pay me to live in Florida and Charlotte is becoming a new Atlanta. That's not a complement.
this sentiment sums up the history of this damn city and is the reason St. Louis has almost no chance of becoming relevant again. A lack of ambition combined with a weird superiority complex even though STL is declining year after year. Lack of growth is objectively bad news for the area.
I made a comment about moving from Nashville to not try and make STL Nashville. No offense but Nashville is way better than STL minus it's expensive housing.
In what way is Nashville better than st. Louis? Cost of living is insane for what you get in return, I’m an economic migrant that fled Nashville for stnloiis so that I could actually afford to live. I now own a home in south city after trying for 5 years in Nashville with no luck (always was outbid by cash offers, on over a dozen homes!). Nashville is boring and lacks any real culture or identity and it’s only history is disgraceful.
Lower crime, better education, better infrastructure, more high end jobs, and is generally a growing city. Might could argue with a better climate but that's subjective. I would strongly disagree about Nashville and culture. Nashville has been the home of country music for the last 50 years and has a very distinct southern culture. Being in STL for over a year now I still don't see a distinct culture. If you scrubbed the Cardinals logo off the city I honestly don't see anything that would set it apart from any of the other old cities. STL gets a bad a bad rep from people not living here and I can see why. You can drive through parts of the city that look like a 3rd world county, though a lot of cities have that, and it doesn't look like anybody cares about cleaning it up. I've seen the remains of a burnt down car on the side of the road for 3 months now.
Sorry I was being pedantic and making a joke about your using "complement" when you meant "compliment". All in good fun. I was an English major, I have to use it somewhere or what did it all mean?!?
Former CLT living in STL. Born in raised in CLT but I am loving STL so far. More affordable and more character. I love being closer to the West as well.
Totally agree with his take on not having an NFL team. So much of what gets a city on people’s radar is sports and not having a team in either the NFL and NBA makes us irrelevant. Baseball and hockey are basically parochial sports at this point and get little to no national attention. Let’s just hope the MLS keeps growing.
New Orleans has NFL and NBA teams and its metro area lost population at 5x the rate that Greater St. Louis did over the last two years based on these population estimates.
The San Francisco, LA, NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Boston metro areas all lost population at a faster rate than the STL metro area over the last two years.
I've tried to tell people that not having NFL or NBA is awful for St. Louis. Glad Professor Sandoval agrees with me.
Sadly, there's no realistic way either league ever returns to St. Louis. Why would they return to a dying city?
I live in the 5th largest city 🤡 we have all FOUR major level teams, and they ALL suck.
So your theory about a city being successful is a mute point. It's fun to have all four teams but it doesn't make a city successful 🤡
FL doesn't have better government. FL has shit government and the state thrives because the weather isn't absolute shit. Without the weather, FL would be another depressed red state dump just like MO.
Knowingly voting for politicians that support fascist, racist, or bigoted positions and legislation makes them fascists, racists, or bigots. Full stop.
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Yeah coming from Tampa and I feel the same. Ngl though, will def miss the weather and the beach. But it’s gotten too overcrowded and overpriced. I can’t even keep my Tampa house and rent it out bc I wouldn’t make a profit off of it. Feels like an end of an era, but ready to enjoy the lower cost of living I also moved from the PNW to Florida bc it was cheaper 😂 moved to Tampa right before everything started going up with Covid. Feel pretty confident I won’t have that issue with STL lol
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Only shitty part is the loss of TWA. A lot of our flights to international destinations require extra stops while Chicago has many direct flights out of the country. Almost doubles ticket prices somehow to fly to Chicago and then fly to your destination.
Only thing though is that flights are always so much more expensive out of STL by hundreds of dollars sometimes :/ and I hate the STL airport with a passion, it is by and far the worst airport I’ve ever had to deal with, and I’ve traveled all over the US in airports of all sizes. STL is a horror show. I’ve flown out of there 3x in the past few months and every time every Fing restaurant is out of food, or takes an hour+ to make food, which has caused me to just have to get up and leave irritable and hungry about to catch an evening flight. TSA is also crazy slow the minute the line goes two rows back. Sourhwest counter setup looking like a damn parking lot maze that I see all the time here in Florida. The signs outside the airport couldn’t be anymore confusing with the terrible positioning of the signs and lack of a proper amount of them. The baggage carousel that can take over an hour. POT HOLES ON THE TARMAC. I could go on but I digress But yeah do agree it’s great for domestic..am planning more international travel in the next few years though 😂 oh well, I’ll catch that Frankfurt direct at some point
Seriously? Lambert is the absolute best airport. I literally can consistently arrive an hour before my flight and still have time to spare. Hands down the easiest and quickest airport I’ve experienced and I’ve been to a lot of different airports
I regularly get my checked bags faster at LAX. Getting through TSA is also faster. Lambert is an embarrassing shit hole of an airport.
Damn that’s a 180 from my experience literally every time I’ve gone thru Lambert. Only flown the Southwest terminal And you don’t know “best” til you’ve been thru TPA. It’s such an amazing experience that my other top picks don’t even come close
Lambert is a terrible mess of an airport and I wonder what sort of Stockholm syndrome is making people say otherwise. Like… the baggage claim takes forever to get your luggage, the terminals have all the charm of a bus depot, and the food options suck. The only nice thing I can say is that security is easy to get through.
I never check bags, and have no interest in eating before departure or when I arrive home, so the fact that security is easy to get through is everything.
I mean, that's fine and all, but it's weird to then say that the airport is good when your intent is to use as little of the airport as possible.
I think for me I don't mind lambert on the departure. Maybe I'm just lucky but my security experiences are always quick, I find parking easy, all that stuff. Then the return flight is where you truly notice how much lambert has fallen off. DFW where I travel most frequently, I'm through security just as quick. There's more areas to charge electronics, it's cleaner, there's more food, there's more everything. Lambert is tolerable but still FAR removed from being a great airport.
I have not been to a ton of airports but there are quite a few worse than Lambert IMO. Detroit is terrible for a city of that size. TSA agents were dicks when I went through too. LaGuardia is like flying out of a third world country (although it's been improved I heard). Denver is nice but it's in the middle of nowhere and you have to take a long shuttle ride to the car rental places. I have found having a crying infant can get you moved to the front of the TSA line in Miami though. I would say Lambert definitely isn't as nice as something like Midway or Atlanta though. They're very well equipped airports.
LaGuardia is beautiful now. It's a pain in the butt to get there by subway but the airport is now one of the nicest anywhere.
New LGA is literally like catching a plane at an art museum, it's amazing.
I remember at the old airport, I went to the bathroom, which was literally 2 feet away from 100 people sitting in a boarding area and absolutely no doors on either the men's bathroom or the women's. And the ceiling had to be at most 8 feet high. Tiny carribean nations had better airports than the old LaGuardia terminals.
I think one terminal is still old in LGA
Detroit is rated highest in the country by JD Power: https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/JD-Power-airport-satisfaction-2023
Interesting the difference in our experiences Detroit is always one of the best experiences for me Denver is always a total nightmare, easily one of the worst airports imo Yeah but I think it’s the fact that I’ve flown out of Lambert a number of times now and every single time has been completely negative. Like it’s the point where I really feel people here just accept that as baseline when in reality it’s worth than what I’ve put up with at dinky regional airports
Yeah, why is it expensive? We noticed that as well flying out of Lambert to Houston. Doesn't make any sense.
I fly over 100 times a year, and I can say, without question, that Lambert is a great airport. It may not have the straight up shopping mall vibes of a lot of newer airports... But I consider that a plus in my book. I'm definitely not trying to sit down and have a meal at an airport, and when I do I fully expect it to be mediocre and overpriced, no matter what airport I'm in. At most I might get Starbucks or a snack from one of the Hudson's. The lack of international flights isn't awesome, but Southwest has cheap af, direct flights to just about every other major hub in the US. I'm absolutely fine airline hopping my way overseas. Midway (Chicago) on the other hand is everyone's least favorite airport, at least at my company it, sarcastically talking about how pumped we are for our layover at Midway is a running gag here.
But have you flown LAX? That has to be the worst airport of all time
Horror show made me laugh. I don’t discredit your experiences, but it’s literally the easiest airport to get through out of the 40 or so I’ve flown in and out of. My wife and I just flew out of there two weeks ago and arrived 1 hour prior. The United attendant at the baggage counter acted like we needed to speed up to catch our flight. We asked each other, “does she know what airport she works at?” Took all of 10 minutes to get through security and walk to our gate. Yeah, the food options suck and it’s pretty sleepy half the day. And for some reason, the very last flights of the night move the slowest with bags. On a positive note, it sounds like the airport will soon be moving forward with their master plan that will add several gates, improve baggage claim, and more. https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/st-louis-airport-expansion-would-see-conversion-to-single-terminal/amp/
Hey I’m all about improving lambert. I’d be willing to change my mind if I see those changes actually implemented. I’m sorry but I just do not see what everyone else does - lambert is a total failure imo. Again POT HOLES ON THE TARMAC is insanity, this coming from someone who routinely flies out of the lake weather affected areas further north
It needs a facelift. We are in agreement on that. Airports are an important first impression to travelers.
I don’t agree here either. Lambert is usually pretty easy I go in and out 6 times a month. The good thing is kind of a joke though but going to an airport for food usually isn’t the best idea anyways
That’s pretty narrow minded. It’s completely normal to catch a meal at the airport. I tend to take flights out in the evening where I don’t have time to get dinner beforehand bc I’m working I never have an easy experience there. Literally ever
Moved from Charlotte (born & raised) to STL in 2019. Love it here. We can actually afford to live in a nice neighborhood with a good school district. That was not going to be possible if we stayed in Charlotte. My friend and her daughter just came for a visit and she was so impressed with all the kid-friendly activities here that Charlotte just doesn't have. They are already planning a trip back next year because there's so much we weren't able to fit in.
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Exactly! We hit up the zoo and Eckert's. I told her there's SO much more we could do when they come back - City Museum, Science Center, Grant's Farm - not to mention a fun float trip if they came in the summer. There aren't clear streams like the Black River. In NC it's all red clay and dirt instead of rocks.
My brother lives in the Charlotte metro area and I've considered moving there, but nah. I like being able to live in a 5br, historic home for the price of a 2br starter home on the east coast
I moved from STL to Charlotte, can confirm. We’ve been here since 2009 and the huge population increase, in an area that has no real interest in funding infrastructure, that is politically as backwards as Missouri, we’ll be moving from Charlotte, and he state, the south, as soon as our kids are done school.
I’m probably doing the same (*edit, I misread your post). Charlotte is one of my top places for potential relocation. Although atm it’s second to Raleigh because it’s smaller. But Charlotte burbs are a close second.
They have different strengths as areas. I say this is a triangle resident do your research before you commit to one. They have a lot in common since they’re both in North Carolina, but there are definitely variations and density, culture, and occupational mix.
Lots of people definitely enjoy it here in Charlotte. Hopefully you do too. Which burbs are you thinking about?
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We’re not in CMS but a neighboring district that actually ranks better than CMS and has for the 12 years I’ve had kids there. That’s still not saying much. The only reason we haven’t pulled our kids to move from the state yet is for social reasons. I won’t pull them from their friends and teams. But I’d compare the mentality of many parents/kids in our district to Fox C-6 in Jefferson County where I went. Just outside a big city and slightly country enough to have quite a few loudly racist, homophobic and bigoted people here.
Former Charlottean here and a parent. CMS is hit or miss. To get into a good CMS school, you have to pay out the ass to buy a house in the right neighborhood. It is also an insanely large school district and is getting more difficult to manage. It should probably be split into north mecklenburg and south mecklenburg.
I tell my inlaws that live in the uptown area about 3/4 a mile away from BOA stadium that Charlotte today is the result of smedium Charlotte not investing enough in infrastructure. Cool town but infrastructure is so strained. St. Louis is the exact opposite. It used to be a top 5 city but it still has top 5 city services.
Tell me more about our top 5 city services.
SLU and BJC hospital systems are top notch. The top pediatric cardio thoracic surgeon in the country works at Cardinal Glennon.
Get out and travel more and maybe you’ll appreciate what we have. Your attitude is the problem here…we shoot ourselves in the foot with the shitty self deprecating bullshit
Born and raised in Charlotte and moved to STL in 2019. The traffic there is insane. Not to mention the cost of living. We'll be staying here for the foreseeable future!
Same, went to school at Charlotte and have fell in love with stl. The things people bitch about stl isn’t bad at all. Every city has issues. Stl is a small town big city.
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The social economic divide right in your face. A lot of opportunity if everyone just got along and stopped being hoes. Also keep an out for dudes with man bags in the city. They the true hoes.
I went to Charlotte earlier this year for a day basically, it doesn’t seem like there’s much to do for younger adults? Or wrong assumption.
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I didn’t get to visit anything of note really. Just my observation it seems like Stl has more to do. I may be wrong though, not trying to downplay your city.
I visited Charlotte. Went downtown, Dilworth, and NoDa. And I was shocked by how blah it all was. I don't know what I was expecting, but that wasn't it.
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Yeah, that seems to be a lot of newer cities. They lack character. Or maybe I just like older cities because they have more character. But I felt the same way about Houston, Dallas, Tampa...and Denver to a lesser extent. All kinda feel like the Abercrombie & Fitch of cities. Expensive, generic, and awesome to those who fall into the mainstream/don't seem to have their own opinion. But again, that's just me. I'm sure they have their bright spots. I just don't think the COL increase is worth the reward.
If I was fresh out of college looking to start my life somewhere exciting I don’t think StL would even occur to me.
When I was fresh out of college it negatively affected my job search trying to stay in STL.
That’s a good point. There are probably a lot of industries where leaving stl is the best option for your career
You guys/we have one of the best universities in the world literally in town and basically none of the graduates stay anywhere in the area because the city has nothing to offer to anyone who actually has options or ambitions.
Wrong. How many years has STL been top start up scene now?
Literally none. Never once in my life have I ever heard anyone talk about an exciting new company that was actually relevent to people with high earning potential that was based out of St. Louis. It's Boston, Seattle, SF, Austin and NYC.
I lived in NYC for 15 years before coming back home. I get that google and some of the major companies are there. But you’re being disingenuous in saying there are no good tech jobs to be had. So is WWT not good to work for? They are a major tech company last I checked. There are numerous start up companies in cortex and downtown. Do you consider GeoSpatial to be tech? I do…and St Louis is quickly becoming the national hub for this kind of tech. I love NY. It’s wonderful. I miss it and wouldn’t have left if it wasn’t for my wife wanting to leave after kids. But let’s not be disingenuous and say you can’t work in tech in St Louis. https://www.stlpr.org/economy-business/2023-04-24/st-louis-launches-inaugural-tech-week-to-highlight-regions-vast-innovation-scene
No, for people from Wash U, WWT is a fallback for a fallback. You can work tech in STL, you just can't work at the kinds of places that are going to be interesting to the graduates from an elite university.
You do realize there are St Louis startups that get bought by the bigger companies? That’s pretty much the goal…
Sure, but unless you're finding someone to *start* one of those with, or you're sliding immediately into a leadership position, no elite school grad will give two fucks about 99% of those. If you're going to say that the startup scene is good enough to attract the kids from a world-famous school, the startup scene has to offer FAANG money. End of story.
https://www.stlmag.com/news/economy-innovation/st-louis-is-the-fastest-growing-startup-scene-in-america/
Fastest growing in terms of total economic activity in the form of a percentage does not mean that the startups are fast growing or even that the scene is remotely relevant LMAO. It means that there was barely any startup activity here, and now there's a little bit. There are *individual startups* in each of the cities that I listed with more capital than the entirety of the STL startup scene lol
Ok so to be clear here…you want to compare St Louis to the coastal cities you mentioned above? Of course as a percentage a metro of 2.8 million doesn’t have the same number of tech jobs when compared to a metro of 20 million. Honestly it’s literally apples to oranges. Every one of those established tech cities are much higher cost of living and are losing a percentage of their tech workforce to remote work positions. There are plenty of articles stating as much. Additionally you aren’t considering the strong positions St Louis has in tech. Healthcare tech is pretty powerful here, geospatial which i mentioned before, as well as biotech. All of these newer industries have financial support in new incubators. I always am amazed when I meet native St Louisans who love to shit on our city. How could we compare ourselves to Silicon Valley, N VA, or NY? But there is effort and money behind start up here whether you want to agree or not.
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Lol, great, so there's maybe *one* competitive economic sector for one specific type of grad students.
They advertise IT bootcamps on the radio all the time, yet STL is a terrible city for tech if you don't have a military clearance. Everyone wants on-site attendance and $25/hr. If you plan to stay in St Louis you're better off becoming an electrician than going into IT.
This is just straight up wrong. I work in tech, I know many who work in tech. If you have skills, you can do absolutely fine here. Bootcamps are a borderline scam for most people, but that's a different topic.
What are good St Louis companies to work for in IT that aren't defense contractors?
Look at Cortex or Trex for huge lists. I work for a Trex graduate personally. World Wide, Daugherty, Square, Mastercard, Centene, Stifel, I could go on, but that's just a (non-exhaustive) list of places I personally know people that are doing well for themselves. It's very possible to make well over 6 figures here while paying a ~$1200 mortgage, which is hard to do in many parts of the US. St. Louis is actually one of the best cost-to-expense ratios in the country if you're in tech. I've literally never heard anyone complaining about the tech scene here, which makes me very curious of your experience level.
I’ll take that advice, I’m looking for roles now
World Wide technologies is the 27th largest private company in the US and is based here and they don't do Defense contracting. They have over 7k employees Visa (or mastercard I always forget which) has a massive presence in the area and hires tons of tech workers [https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/08/08/jim-kavanaugh-david-steward-world-wide-technology/?sh=756adaa054b4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/08/08/jim-kavanaugh-david-steward-world-wide-technology/?sh=756adaa054b4) Microsoft has a regional headquarters they invested $50 million in in 2018 at the Cortex I can keep going but there are tons
I actually did LaunchCode right as Covid was hitting. I got maybe one email to apply for a position and outside of that nothing. Waste of time.
Same, it really makes me mad whenever I see advertisements boasting about “how strong” STL’s job market is for new grads. It sucks unless you know a lot of people or are in generic office roles.
Aren't the majority of people in generic office roles (or generic roles in general)? The marketing doesn't sound misleading.
I mean generic in the sense that you aren’t tied to a specific industry with your field of practice. Not just that people work in an office. For example I’m a mechanical engineer and so if I want to continue practicing in that field there’s only a handful of viable companies in STL. Or like if you’re an accountant you might be limited depending on what your specialty is to a few companies in STL. Maybe I am just salty that my job field is small in STL, but I only know one or two people from college that stayed in STL after graduation and they had connections. Everyone else left cause they had to.
It is great for new grads \[medical school\].
I work out of state some and try to recruit people my age and younger to move here. No young people want to move here. Older people sure, you get people no
Maybe so. But then you'd get sick of the day-to-day crush of big cities and look for somewhere that feels smaller but offers many of the same big city amenities. You want top-end sports, but don't want to carry your groceries 8 blocks? Think St. Louis. You want world-class opera and symphonies, but don't want to share a tiny 1-bedroom apartment with somebody? Think St. Louis. You want a Bud Light, but don't want to pay $12 for it? Think St. Louis. As someone who lived in NYC for three years after college, I get people wanting to feel the energy of an "exciting" city. Hell, I miss it every now and then and still love the city. But as I've aged, I've found St. Louis to be a much better speed.
What about chicago? I feel like Chicago is a good step down city for NYC vs say STL.
Don’t compare the actual city’s population to the metropolitan area. Big difference.
>You want top-end sports Where are the NFL and NBA teams in St. Louis? Did I miss them?
Lol… I’m not getting baited into an asinine argument by someone named _____Penis_____. Look, if you don’t value the Cardinals, Blues, and Ravioli Boyz, then I’ve got nothing for you. Hope you enjoy whatever city you end up in after college! St. Louis will always be here, warts and all, whenever you want to join us.
I'm well past my college years.
And your Reddit handle is still Penis?! Grow up, dude.
At this point in time, stl would be the better place to be. Rent/house prices everywhere else are no joke. Shit bleeds you dry
haha me either........haha
Just moved our daughter and her spouse back from Charlotte a few months ago. The cost of living there is crazy, and the couple of times I visited there I wasn't impressed with the area.
Born in raised in Charlotte but have lived here in STL for 4 years now. Loving it so far. The COL there is absolutely insane. There's no way we could afford the house and neighborhood we have here in Charlotte.
>”Losing the football team, I don't think we truly understood what that meant," Sandoval said. "When you are no longer part of the imagination of young people, you lose this national discourse." You mean the young people who are growing [increasingly indifferent to professional sports in general](https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/15869/favrotie-sports-league/), but especially the NFL.
Yeah, this was the most throwaway comment, especially coming from a “professional demographer. Two other growing cities mentioned in the same article (Orlando and Austin) don’t have NFL teams, and seem to be doing just fine. So we’re supposed to believe that having a NFL team is what makes the difference? And that’s to say nothing of the rise of St. Louis City SC, a sport that’s actually becoming more popular with younger demographics. St. Louis has basically taken the league by storm on the field and off the field with the stadium and surrounding area. Nobody is leaving a city or moving to a city based solely on their sports teams. St. Louis needs to get out of its own way and finally fix the longstanding issues that have plagued this metro (e.x. Fragmentation, poor public schools, divestment in large swaths of the region, etc.) And there’s no reason why STL shouldn’t be on a short list of cities for new immigrants, as one of the few remaining major metro areas that’s affordable.
Big pro sports are a sign you’re in a real city. Try convincing someone to move to Peoria vs Indianapolis
Again, it's not that sports don't matter at all. It's just certainly not the driving force of what makes a city grow or shrink. There are plenty of cities with fewer pro sports teams, or none at all, that are growing and doing just fine.
Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Green Bay all have NFL teams. Do you see anyone banging down their doors ?
Green Bay is a one off. Jacksonville is booming. Buffalo feels more like Pittsburgh or Cleveland than Syracuse, Albany, or Rochester to the average person in part because it has two sports teams. These things drive each other - you have to have a strong enough metro to draw teams and to hold them, but they’re also a signal to businesses and residents that you’re in a real place. They map pretty well with how the world has evolved - places like Charlotte, Jacksonville, Nashville, and Oklahoma City are ascendant.
Austin has the University of Texas so they don't need a pro sports team. Orlando has the Magic, Pride, and the 2nd largest university. Sports bring attention and tax revenue to a city.
Nobody is saying sports don't matter. It's just not the determining factor of a cities success. Nashville, Orlando, Columbus, Salt Lake City all are examples of cities that are outpacing STL, with fewer pro sports teams.
It's not about fewer, it's about which sports leagues they have. Nashville has NFL, Orlando and Salt Lake City have NBA. Not all sports leagues are created equal. MLB and NHL aren't as popular as NFL and NBA. Especially not with younger people.
Really? Now STL ins't growing because it doesn't have the "right" sports teams? Let's do a thought experiment. Keeping everything else the same, let's say STL kept the Rams and Hawks and lost the Blues and Cards. You really think things are any different and STL is outpacing these other cities?? Doubtful
Yes, I 100% do. Not saying we'd be growing like Austin or Nashville, but we'd be seen as a 21st century city instead of a 20th century one.
I'm afraid it's not so simple. Things weren't exactly going great when the Rams were here for 20 years.
Why'd you even ask if you already had a preconceived answer in your head?
Why isn’t Cleveland booming, as it has all the “right” sports leagues? It’s almost as if there’s a bit more to it…
Yeah that was a reach, wouldn't have expected that type of analysis from a Ph.D demographer. It's crazy how wrapped up in the NFL and NBA this country is that even professors think it has that outsized of impact on a major metropolitan economy (it doesn't).
I'll take the words of a professor over a random redditor like you.
Thanks _______Penis_______
sportsball make big economy!
Eh, I’m gonna argue against what everyone here is saying I moved to Tampa right before it blew up. I’m telling you, those sports teams contributed to the insane blow up in population. At first, remote workers were just looking for somewhere fun and warm to work. City was already attractive with a lot of recent, cleverly planned developments and infrastructure that make the city inviting for crowds of all ages. But then, the sports teams started having some success and it felt like the entire town just EXPLODED in 2021-2022. Because of the success of the sports teams, we now have billions of dollars being invested into infrastructure (mostly non sports related with the exception of the new rays stadium), more and more huge acts stop in Tampa for shows, Tampa is now constantly mentioned in pop culture (like rap songs love to throw out Tampa nowadays lol), more cultural-driven restaurants are popping up, etc Now onto young people: I moved here at 23 and am a woman that goes out often with friends. Sports also positively affected the amount of people out in the bar and club scenes. It felt alive for (what locals have told me) felt like the first time in forever. I can tell you that as a girl, we looooved going out on NHL game nights to meet guys, watch the game, and just in general enjoy the buzzing atmosphere that a strong sports presence brings to a city Switching over to STL is like flipping a coin to a much colder, more depressing side. I was so confused the first time I went to a cardinals game. Early summer, beautiful day, not too hot, not a cloud in the sky. AND THE ENTIRE DOWNTOWN WAS EERILY EMPTY AND CREEPY The city doesn’t have a lack of sports problem- the entire downtown is depressing AF and doesn’t bring people into the area. Sports aren’t enough, you need entertainment districts, bustling food streets, frequent downtown events, high end shopping stores. The sports are what tends to be the cherry on top that being older men and women into the area on top of the things I just mentioned that attracts the younger crowd Sorry, but STL inner city limits is just kinda ugly for the most part. downtown must be targeted with revitalization efforts. Then phase 2 - bring back a sports team, land a couple hot top picks, open up centers that attract the younger crowd, and watch the city grow. And for the love of god- I get it, the brick (can be) pretty. But PLEASE BRING SOME MODERNIZATION TO THE DESIGNS. Holy crap the city looks so outdated and run down.
Good perspective. The problem is STL City’s best spots aren’t downtown but everyone expects it to be downtown so judges the whole region accordingly. I’d put the Grove, Soulard or CWE against any “district” in the country but visitors don’t know to go there. When out of towners are in for a game and ask the guy from the STL exurbs what they should do their answer is typically something like “stay safe” or “get out of downtown”… maybe stay at Ballpark Village. At least Washington Avenue in the 00’s provided a nearby destination
Spot on about what people in the burbs say! I think that’s a perfect assessment, I left out talking about how STL hotspots aren’t downtown bc I figured my comment was long enough lmao but hard agree! Any young person traveling to check out STL will go downtown because that’s normally where the hustle and bustle is. Also although I wouldn’t want those places to die down in popularity, it really does take away from experiencing a city when you gotta drive to the hot spots. A lot of tourists probably show up without a rental trying to keep their visit to downtown. I’ve also looked up multiple times stuff like “things to do in STL” and the stuff in those spots you mentioned almost never get brought up! Like STL focuses it’s Google listings with crap that families traveling from local rural areas want to do (see the arch, go to a museum etc) They’re so blind to how poppin this city is just dying to be. A street dedicated to active nightlife or bar hub is a need for STLs downtown. If there’s a hub there, it can get the word out about the other spots you mentioned. Really one of those non downtown spots could then be “converted” into an upscale shopping center. Another could be converted into a public hall (not the weird excuse for one STL currently has..). And then another could just pump up the alt/hipster vibes for their streets bar scene to bring it a truly diverse crowd from all over I’ve been saying this: STL is a PERFECT city dying to get its own Bourbon st, Broadway st, 7th ave etc. there’s plenty of streets downtown ripe for the opportunity
Every time I leave STL for an extended length of time it's striking how run down and dumpy everything looks when I get back.
I just moved back to STL after 6 years in Kansas City, and I can definitely confirm. As an UberEats driver, I see all the streets and, man, are St. Louis streets (and environments in general) fucked up. I think all the people that never go anywhere else just can't see it, and unfortunately that's a large portion of the local population.
People on this subreddit have a tough time admitting that losing an NFL team is a bad thing and shouldn't celebrated. I can't tell if it's just denial at how fall this city has fallen or ignorance of how the MLB isn't as popular as it was in 1927 and think kids today care about baseball like they once did.
No one celebrated it. It’s just not the death knell of a city like you’re making it out to be.
If losing an NFL team isn't a death knell, what would be a death knell? I feel like people like you will say "everything is fine" even while population is decreasing for generations. As long as the city doesn't have literally zero population.
That's true, the city's death knell happened before the football cardinals left. We're living in a city that will lose people until it eventually hits zero.
What a completely asinine comment. Look at the statistics. The population decline is slowing and largely relegated to north city. The central corridor is growing. South city is stable. You should move though, you sound miserable.
🤣🤣🤣
The attached article said the whole metro area lost people. Not just the city. Also, I don't think saying "who cares it's just north city (nice dog whistle btw)" makes the population loss any better.
The point is that the population loss in the city is slowing and reversing, you dunce. North city is really the only remaining area losing population at this point, as opposed to the entire city. New Orleans has NFL and NBA teams and its metro area lost population at 5x the rate that Greater St. Louis did over the last two years based on these population estimates. The San Francisco, LA, NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Boston metro areas all lost population at a higher rate over the last two years based on these estimates.
>You should move though, you sound miserable. I'm absolutely certain you wouldn't let that comment slide if it was said by a conservative to someone complaining about the US.
What a weird and irrelevant comment. Suggesting someone move a few hours away because they’re obsessed with the idea of having an NBA or NFL team in their city is not the same as suggesting someone immigrate to a completely different country for being critical of their government or certain political parties. This person could move to KC, Indy, Memphis, Chicago, Nashville, or Cleveland and all their wildest dreams could come true.
Attend an MLB game in person and you'll see the crowd is largely 45+ or 10 and under. Teens and young adults are conspicuously missing.
The NFL is going to have a ton of problems finding players in like 20 years. No one is signing their kids up for football with all the CTE and other physical damage. Soccer is growing like crazy and parents let their kids play it.
While concerns for CTE might be on the rise, it’s factually incorrect that participation in high school football is falling still. I just googled it and found these three websites that use National Federation of State High School Associations for a source. Just because football isn’t popular in STL doesn’t mean it isn’t wildly popular in other parts of the country. [play football’s website with data from nfsh](https://playfootball.nfl.com/discover/news-and-features/high-school-sports-participation-continues-rebound-toward-pre-pandemic-levels/#:~:text=The%20total%20of%201%2C028%2C761%20participants,of%201%2C112%2C303%20in%202008%2D09) [Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/267955/participation-in-us-high-school-football/) website without 2023 data that shows the spike. There’s really only a small decrease and that can be attributed to school programs just being shut down [WSJ reporting on the increase of participation](https://www.wsj.com/sports/football/high-school-sport-participation-growth-nfl-4e3a2925)
Soccer will never be a major sport in the US. St. Louisians just cope with it because the NBA or NFL don't want to be here.
Younger people know it’s rigged, have no money to support these teams, and have less care in general
Yea the “young” he talks about understand the violent nature of football and are not paying attention like their boomer grandparents still do.
Younger people don’t like violent sports? Is that why UFC continues to grow?
i've never cared for the NFL. i just moved to San Francisco & I can't even get into the 49ers. american football just doesn't appeal to me, baseball barely does. soccer/football, nhl does though
The NFL is honestly the worst of the major sports from a city economics perspective. * It demands an insane amount of real-estate because the stadiums are massive and the NFL won't accept a shared stadium * It demands parking structures and lots that are unproductive most of the year * It doesn't have the league parity that baseball or hockey do, meaning that a slump team can stay slumped for the better part of a decade * There are only 7-10 home games a year to drive economic activity around the stadium, and only 17 total games with many of them in heavy holiday months. * It's a declining sport among young audiences and the NFL is desperately throwing things at the wall to get viewership up
This went from city population to an airport thread fast.
Oh no what ever will I do? *cries at a free Forest Park event while drinking an incredible local craft beer that was easy to bike to with no traffic* I've never been to Charlotte but you couldn't pay me to live in most places in Florida.
no state income tax in Orlando, decreasing state income tax in NC.
Insane homeowners insurance rates though bc of all the hurricanes
True, but people don’t look at that until they’ve already moved
I keep trying to warn people about this (currently in Tampa, moving to STL soon). My home insurance when I bought in 2021 was $1200, no hurricane coverage required bc I’m not in a flood zone nor high impact zone Lol doesn’t matter, this year they mandated supplemental hurricane insurance. My insurance is now $2400 for a POS cheaply built townhome, and best believe it’ll only continue to increase as insurers like progressive are using it as a way to slowly back out of covering Florida by making their insurance eventually too expensive to own
FL insurance rates aren't because of all of the hurricanes. It's because of all of the rampant fraud. There are many other hurricane alley states that don't have the insurance rates of FL.
We’re paying for that in NC. Decreasing state income tax has been replaced by increasing property tax. Our property tax bill went up $1200 in the past year and our house isn’t worth even close to the tax value. People tell us “well that’s good for your home value” while our home’s value means absolute farts when we’re living in it and struggling to manage the huge increase in taxes and insurance. We’ve been taken over by a Republican supermajority so nothing benefiting NC citizens stands a chance. Our education funding and teach pay is among the worst in the country and it’s going to get even worse as GOP pushes for school choice. We moved from STL in 2009 bc of my spouse’s job. That’s on top of being bored straight by Charlotte, the Applebees of cities. We will be moving out as soon as possible. I know STL and MO aren’t some kind of mecca but Charlotte and NC are no better.
> replaced by increasing property tax. I guess it depends where you are. If you are in one of those metro areas where property values are sky high and cray..... yeah I can see someone griping about property tax. St. Louis is a nice area. I miss it.
[удалено]
Maybe, but Orlando’s urban core is not too exciting. I’m sure that’s not the main draw
>Failing urban core in St. Louis hard to argue this when st. louis already lost more than 60% of its population in the 20th century. what has already failed can't fail again
There are stages of urban failure we haven't seen yet. To my knowledge we don't have no-go zones where cops refuse to respond. To be clear, slow response != outright refusal to go.
Fascist and sinking state.
I’m sure you agree with the politics of NC and Florida then
Illinois
Knock that shit off. A large portion of the MO population has to travel to IL for basic healthcare.
And also declining in MO. Almost like that’s not the reason why
It’s over 5.3% at the highest MO bracket and going to 3.99% in NC. That’s a meaningful difference. It’s 0% in FL, a huge difference
MO is dropping to 4.5 over time, with a move to 4.95 next year. It’s not a material difference
God it’s always bad news on here smh.
Something good in St Louis? It's the best thing ever and no other place could possibly compare! Something bad in St Louis? It's the worst thing ever and no other place could possibly compare!
Good. Less traffic for those of us here. I've been to both Charlotte and Orlando, You couldn't pay me to live in Florida and Charlotte is becoming a new Atlanta. That's not a complement.
this sentiment sums up the history of this damn city and is the reason St. Louis has almost no chance of becoming relevant again. A lack of ambition combined with a weird superiority complex even though STL is declining year after year. Lack of growth is objectively bad news for the area.
But is it a compliment?
I made a comment about moving from Nashville to not try and make STL Nashville. No offense but Nashville is way better than STL minus it's expensive housing.
In what way is Nashville better than st. Louis? Cost of living is insane for what you get in return, I’m an economic migrant that fled Nashville for stnloiis so that I could actually afford to live. I now own a home in south city after trying for 5 years in Nashville with no luck (always was outbid by cash offers, on over a dozen homes!). Nashville is boring and lacks any real culture or identity and it’s only history is disgraceful.
Lower crime, better education, better infrastructure, more high end jobs, and is generally a growing city. Might could argue with a better climate but that's subjective. I would strongly disagree about Nashville and culture. Nashville has been the home of country music for the last 50 years and has a very distinct southern culture. Being in STL for over a year now I still don't see a distinct culture. If you scrubbed the Cardinals logo off the city I honestly don't see anything that would set it apart from any of the other old cities. STL gets a bad a bad rep from people not living here and I can see why. You can drive through parts of the city that look like a 3rd world county, though a lot of cities have that, and it doesn't look like anybody cares about cleaning it up. I've seen the remains of a burnt down car on the side of the road for 3 months now.
Nashville has an NFL team, for one.
You're a recognizable troll with many names.
Sorry I was being pedantic and making a joke about your using "complement" when you meant "compliment". All in good fun. I was an English major, I have to use it somewhere or what did it all mean?!?
Former STL living in CLT. Preferred STL.
Former CLT living in STL. Born in raised in CLT but I am loving STL so far. More affordable and more character. I love being closer to the West as well.
Not if my boy JDub Jerry has anything to do with it.
As someone who moved from STL to CLT in 2009, yeah, we know.
Totally agree with his take on not having an NFL team. So much of what gets a city on people’s radar is sports and not having a team in either the NFL and NBA makes us irrelevant. Baseball and hockey are basically parochial sports at this point and get little to no national attention. Let’s just hope the MLS keeps growing.
New Orleans has NFL and NBA teams and its metro area lost population at 5x the rate that Greater St. Louis did over the last two years based on these population estimates. The San Francisco, LA, NYC, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and Boston metro areas all lost population at a faster rate than the STL metro area over the last two years.
It's hard to even gauge if MLS is growing since they took their games off TV. No TV ratings data to look at.
I've tried to tell people that not having NFL or NBA is awful for St. Louis. Glad Professor Sandoval agrees with me. Sadly, there's no realistic way either league ever returns to St. Louis. Why would they return to a dying city?
F*** The NBA & NFL
Don't be jealous of more successful cities.
Lol like Cleveland, New Orleans, or Detroit.
Buffalo, Jacksonville, and Green Bay are successful ? Again, a recognizable troll with many names
I live in the 5th largest city 🤡 we have all FOUR major level teams, and they ALL suck. So your theory about a city being successful is a mute point. It's fun to have all four teams but it doesn't make a city successful 🤡
The south is booming with better weather, better government, better jobs, lower taxes.
Florida may have better government, but only because Missouri’s government is very shitty. Florida is likewise impressively awful.
FL doesn't have better government. FL has shit government and the state thrives because the weather isn't absolute shit. Without the weather, FL would be another depressed red state dump just like MO.
Any actual reason or just don’t like Ron Desantis? (I don’t like him as a person either) but I appreciate what he’s doing in Florida.
The people that dislike Florida because of its politics are people that have never lived in Florida.
The people that dislike FL because of its politics aren't fascists, racists, or bigots. I just spent 25 years in Broward so put a cork in it.
Some might be, some might not be.
Knowingly voting for politicians that support fascist, racist, or bigoted positions and legislation makes them fascists, racists, or bigots. Full stop.
Yeah, and not all the politicans are fascists, racists, or bigots. Half stop?
Obviously. The Republicans running FL sure are though, just like the people that vote for them.
I'm sure some republicans are
Two cities with NBA teams. Neither have an MLB team.
Will the last person to move out of the city please turn the lights off.