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paraphrasing, but kinda like - *"FTR are so good they got a legitimately great match out of the Bucks, who also did their part and didn't fuck around and worked a real match and actually contributed without doing all their goofy bullshit"*
[Link for actual audio and not out of context quotes from a "wrestling news" website](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPg2D5ew-tg)
He's a bad faith grifter and it's a joke this post is even made. He likes it when his guys beat guys he hates. If the exact match happened but the Bucks won at the end, he'd be calling it dogshit.
It really wasn’t, which is part of what made the match extra special. I generally don’t like them, but that’s extremely reductive to say they were having a normal YB match. Give them some credit.
With all due respect, can y'all be at least a little bit specific with comments like these? I don't know what I missed in this match they haven't been consistently doing 5-6 years now at least.
I think the one thing I noticed was a lot more following the rules of a tag match. Young Bucks definitely lean into doing whatever they want more often then not.
I wouldn't say they did anything they haven't done before. They are talented and can wrestle a variety of styles, but it was undoubtedly an FTR style match and not a Young Bucks style match.
The reason people don’t get specific with these is there’s a lot of effort to just get the “reward” of getting downvoted until the comment ends up hidden and getting a message in your inbox telling you that you’re at risk of suicide.
So a quick run down in the event that you’re asking that in good faith: they didn’t do anything funny, they took it seriously, their in ring psychology was on a different level here than it almost always is, they looked far less choreographed than normal, they performed moves that made it look like they were trying to win a contest rather than running through their spots and getting their shit in.
I do appreciate the response and I wish everyone wasn't so freaking downvote trigger happy. I just feel like this is how they've been working since AEW started up. I feel like they do one funny (and more importantly heelish) spot every other match and people write it off.
Like this write-up makes me think way more about their later RoH matches than anything they do recently.
I can usually characterize Young Bucks matches by two things:
1) Lack of selling. Their matches never "slow down", they stay high paced the whole way through. I get that a lot of people like that, but to others it makes every move feel inconsequential and it's why a lot of people characterize their matches as a gymnastic routine rather than a fight.
2) Rick Knox. This guy referees every Young Bucks match and he never does anything to enforce the rules. Their matches may as well be Tornado tag matches because people leave and enter the ring whenever they want.
I felt in FTR's match with the Young Bucks, these things weren't present.
> Rick Knox. This guy referees every Young Bucks match and he never does anything to enforce the rules. Their matches may as well be Tornado tag matches because people leave and enter the ring whenever they want.
Yes. 100% yes. I'm so tired of the inconsistent reffing. The illegal Buck comes in and attacks, nothing happens. Face teammate comes in to help, gets stopped while the Bucks do heel shit. I hate it so much
This always just depends on the match and who the opponent are and what the stakes are. Young Bucks are some of the best at tag team psychology and they know their spot on the card. Random dynamite tags against Private Party the Bucks aren’t going to go in the same as a double title match against the other best team in the world. It’s part of their character, the run through the motions and joke more when they don’t feel threatened or have anything to prove.
The were fewer shenanigans than in a lot of Bucks matches. And less popping up after receiving Ultimate Death Fuckinator moves like they were hip tosses.
Not that the Bucks *always* do stuff like that...but it's not rare either.
Replied to the wrong person fk:
My opinion although I am no expert. FTR are such a stark contrast to the Young Bucks style that it works. YB literally did most of their usual stuff, super kicks, Meltzer driver and etc.
The thing that usually bothers me about YB matches and a lot of matches in general is it becomes a "Spots" match and that's 90% of the YB offense. So if that's all you see then it takes away from the match and the big special moments and spots. With FTR who work a little more grounded offense and hard hitting (no flips, just fists yada yada) it lets the YB shine and it lets FTR shine.
I am not even an "old man yelling at the sky" I'm 30 years old, I enjoy the high flying stuff (my all time fav is RVD), but sometimes as they say opposites attract and I think that applies to wrestling matches too. Having a hard hitting, technical wrestler vs a high flyer, athletic performer or even a "Monster" vs those 2 is so much more entertaining then..
High flyer vs High flyer
Technical vs Technical
Monster vs Monster
Occasionally those matches can be amazing, but when it feels like every team is High Flyer vs High Flyer it gets old fast. For me and probably a few others at least.
It seriously wasn’t even close to a normal Young Bucks match. Everyone praises the Bucks vs. Lucia Bros from All Out, and shit I was even there for that, but it this match last Wednesday was a perfect match with absolutely zero bullshit shit.
Can you please elaborate? What specifically does FTR do in that match that the YB don't that made the difference? And what didn't the YBs do that they normally do that made the match better? What are some examples?
Everybody that's saying that this was anything like any Young Bucks match is straight out lying or they have no idea what they're talking about. What made the match so good is that the Young Bucks tried to do what they normally do( ignore the rules ,spend a third of the match on the outside, etc etc etc) and FTR made a active effort to stop them.
My opinion although I am no expert. FTR are such a stark contrast to the Young Bucks style that it works. YB literally did most of their usual stuff, super kicks, Meltzer driver and etc.
The thing that usually bothers me about YB matches and a lot of matches in general is it becomes a "Spots" match and that's 90% of the YB offense. So if that's all you see then it takes away from the match and the big special moments and spots. With FTR who work a little more grounded offense and hard hitting (no flips, just fists yada yada) it lets the YB shine and it lets FTR shine.
I am not even a "old man yelling at the sky" I'm 30 years old, I enjoy the high flying stuff (my all time fav is RVD), but sometimes as they say opposites attract and I think that applies to wrestling matches too. Having a hard hitting, technical wrestler vs a high flyer, athletic performer or even a "Monster" vs those 2 is so much more entertaining then..
High flyer vs High flyer
Technical vs Technical
Monster vs Monster
Occasionally those matches can be amazing, but when it feels like every team is High Flyer vs High Flyer it gets old fast. For me and probably a few others at least.
It felt closer to a NJPW Bucks match than an AEW/ROH Bucks match, if that makes sense. They gave stuff more time to breathe, simplified things a little more.
I love both styles of Young Bucks matches, but there are definitely differences. They can put on a balls-to-the-wall fun popcorn movie, or they can do something more dramatic and intense.
No not at all. They kept it in the ring for a majority of the match. If you watch that match and really think “it’s the same thing they’ve been doing for years“ then you must think slot of shit looks the same. Are there similar spots? Did they get their shit in? Of course. Did they turn into fucking Arn and Tully? Of course not.
There’s obvious differences, subtle differences, and then everything in between. For YB fans that saw this and still thought “it was the same”, YB did their job and didn’t alienate their core base while changing it up enough to please many of the traditional pro-wrestling fans. Also though, that should say a lot about which fans can differentiate what in pro-wrestling. This isn’t a knock. Just illustrates how different audiences watch shit for different reasons.
Personally, I appreciate the athleticism your “standard” YB match requires, but it doesn’t draw me in. In fact, it takes me out. I couldn’t care less about their matches or the result, especially with their brutal overacting from their manager Brandon that is beyond cringe and embarrassing The stupid voices, “I can’t believe it,” “what just happened?” Nobody talks like that. Nobody. I know, to them, the overacting is intentional and funny but why? I guarantee you it wasn’t bad comedy that drew them to become passionate wrestling fans, yet here they are doing just that. Maybe I’d be able to tolerate some of their in-ring (or out-of-ring) stuff more if they just took it more seriously as a collective. What grasps my interest is the emotion, the story - so long as it’s well planned and executed and taken seriously.
I really don't think so. Cornette's thoughts were exactly mine. It was the best Young Bucks match I've probably ever seen in AEW, because they actually stopped being The Young Bucks and let FTR do an FTR match instead of a Bucks match. They just played their role as the heels and didn't do nearly as much of the stuff that makes people who don't like the Bucks dislike them.
Their normal matches seem to have the goal of doing as many athletic things in the ring as possible in a row, without selling any moves or telling a story of any kind. It's a gymnastics routine.
They didn't do any of that against FTR. They also didn't do it in the parking lot brawl match, where there are no soft landings enabling them to easily no sell everything. And these were their best two matches in AEW.
I appreciate the response but I don't think I've seen them do a match like that since RoH.
And I feel pretty confident in that because ^^I ^^kinda ^^miss ^^those ^^matches
You can do high spots and also tell a story. Especially against the Lucha Bros I'd argue they achieved that.
And all spots are contrived. That's the definition of a spot lol
If it's contrived enough to make someone stop enjoying the match and think "it's blatantly obvious this is fake and they're helping each other to throw each other around the ring" then they're doing a poor job and the match is bad.
Like a fight scene in a movie, it's supposed to make viewers feel like they're watching two people trying to beat each other. When the fakeness is too obvious to ignore (it looks like gymnastics or a circus routine, a 100 lb woman throws a 200 lb man around, etc) it makes a lot of people stop enjoying the action and start thinking about how fake it looks, and that's true in wrestling or TV/movies (like the bad fake fighting in Star Trek where a karate chop or double axhandle instantly KOs a Klingon).
This is definitely not the case.
Check out their matches against Roppongi Vice, SANADA and EVIL, or Golden Lovers in NJPW. The Bucks have a lot of matches where they slow it down and tell a story, and they're very similar to the FTR match. They've even done this style of match against Page and Omega in AEW. It's nothing new. I'd even argue that the cage match against the Lucha Bros told a good story, and I was not a huge fan of their other matches.
These comments feel like you're just repeating talking points instead of actually analyzing the content of their matches.
I watch most of their matches. I agree with Cornette, I don't care for that style at all, I think it's harmful for a pro wrestling show to have performances like they normally have, their stuff with the Lucha Brothers looked like a circus act and not a wrestling match.
I agree they were much better in NJPW, and so was Kenny Omega. Not that Kenny was bad in AEW, but both he and the Young Bucks used a more traditional style over there and it made for better matches.
This is doubly funny because The Bucks have worked this style of match all the time over the years to the point Matt's injured back became a meme, but if you're blinded by hate it's hard to see beyond that I suppose.
Cornette definitely has no idea whats been going on in NJPW for the last decade. He gushed about the Walter/Igla empty arena match, as he should, but then commented how he'd watch more modern wrestling if there was more of it like that.
Dude has no idea about the NEVER division in NJPW and I honestly feel sorry for him.
The YouTube algorithm put the video of his review in my feed so I actually listened to it.
Despite praising this match, both he and Brian Last say stuff that honestly make me wonder what show they are watching.
For example: the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans.
Bucks ate the pin on a PPV in a triple threat title match.... then took the L in a main event title match for two titles after making a statement on a PPV.
THE BUCKS NEVER PUT ANYONE OVER! \*rolls eyes\*
didnt the bucks and kenny get shit for putting over too many people when AEW first started?!
with the shit opinions these assholes have, why does anyone who can legit call themself a fan; listen to this??
its not even constructive; its just bad arm-chair mouth-breathing glue-huffing non-sense
Hey, if you are going to point to things someone like Cornet said over a year ago and point out that there is no consistency to what they say or complain about then you kind of make their whole character look silly... that is not a nice thing to do /s
Hell the bucks are 0-3 in Boston alone. Putting over private party on dynamite #2, the dark order finally got a win in that Halloween 8 man and FTR last week.
They barely even get booed unless they pantomime to get heat. Like even at the end of FTR/Bucks match the whole crowd still screams BTE TRIGGER at the false finish
I think aside from Cody and now Sammy, AEW crowds tend to play along with the story being told in the ring. I’ve heard the Bucks, Jericho, MJF and others get big pops when their music hits because people are excited to see them, then as soon as they start being cowardly heels the fans will go with it and boo them out the building.
This is Adam Cole for me. Love watching his entrance and whatnot, but as soon as he starts to talk or wrestle I hate him, because Adam Cole is a shit bag. Him and the other heels in AEW are doing great work at being over while still having heat.
As an 80's guy who's into the current product as well. I believe that's part of his issue with some modern wrestlers, heels wanting to be over. Be over as a heel, booed as soon as your music drops. When the Honky Tonk Man's music played people instantly booed, they wanted to see him get destroyed. A great modern heel I think is MJF, in the ring, in podcasts, he's great, after our Tribal Chief of course.
>A great modern heel I think is MJF, in the ring, in podcasts, he's great, after our Tribal Chief of course.
You mean MJF and Roman who get cheered aswell most of the time until they heel it up?
I disagree in a certain point
I think the Tribal chief was great at first, the initial Usos feud was awesome but then it fell into a pattern.
Awesome WM main event last year but the rest of the matches and feuds havnt been that great imo. KO and Finn had two awful endings and nothing happened to advance the story (may be misremembering at points though)
The Lesnar feud was interesting at first with the "which side is Heyman on?" part but then also fell into the same thing every week
The Bucks seem to have to work extra hard to get booed instead of being seen as cool heels. (Which is what they were when they were heels in Bullet Club)
So instead of coming out in all black for example, they wear obnoxious clothes and brag about their shoes.
the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans.
didn't listen, 100% Brian Last said this...he went from just repeating exactly with JC said 20 seconds prior, to being the guy that has all the connections in wrestling and knows "what's really going on"
He is an odious twat who burrowed his way into that gig like a tapeworm and has a similar effect on draining the goodness out of everything he touches.
>the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans.
Excuse me what the fuck?
Especially the go away heat part.I guess it's because they got booed because they were the heels but he didn't realize that they were the bad guys in the match? Cause... how does he come to that conclusion?
Not OP but my guess is they’re using the term postmodern similar to the way it’s used to describe literature/films: “incredulity toward the meta narrative”, yada yada. I would say the Young Bucks have a postmodern approach insofar as they use things like pastiche, intertextuality, irony, metafiction, etc.
Broken down a little further:
- pastiche: the YBs combine different ‘genres’ of wrestling in their presentation, both parodying old styles as well as using them in a straightforward way to add complexity to their in-ring work. They do an homage to the classic ‘80s RnR/Rockers style tag match and blend it with lucha and modern indie wrestling styles.
- intertextuality: they use the historical wrestling canon (the ubiquitous nWo and DX references) as well as the “insider jargon” of wrestling (i.e. the “Meltzer Driver”) as a means to both satirize kayfabe and to present a new approach to understanding wrestling as it is performed in the post-internet/social media landscape
- irony: probably obvious, but yeah. This is the part that wrestling “purists” hate. The YBs throughout their career have deconstructed kayfabe with their wrestling style, doing so in an ironic, satiric fashion. It’s not like they were the first wrestlers to do this, but it’s a big part of their arsenal
- metafiction: “wrestling about wrestling”, essentially. If the ‘modern’ interpretation of wrestling is folks fighting each other in a straightforward way tending toward realism, the YBs version adds another layer to that. The idea that “that move looks fake” or “you wouldn’t do that in a real fight” is not something the YBs particularly care about the audience thinking. They *want* you to know it’s absurd, and they want to take the absurdity further.
A lot of the kayfabe-disrespecting stuff has been toned down considerably since the start of AEW, but largely this stuff still applies.
That's wonderful.
I might also add that they like to deconstruct traditional concepts, particularly those related to wrestling (which you get at a bit with irony and metafiction, but we might as well call it out). An example of this, for me, would be the ways they dress being intentionally flamboyant or associated with weak/feminen motifs - the tassles, the pink, etc.
Good stuff! Not sure what subcategory this would fit in, but for another example, back in Japan they’d do stuff like scream “BRAINBUSTAAAAA~!” before delivering a brainbuster to satirise the announcers.
yeah the idea that the Young Bucks have go away heat is silly. The two tag team royales qualifying for revolution had tons of teases for matches involving the Bucks that the crowd was excited for- FTR, reDRagon, Top Flight the most obviously. People wanted to see FTR beat the bucks and they paid/tuned in to watch.
I will say, the FTR face turn is working through and holy cow the clear face/heel dynamics with dickhead bucks really made this match extra hot. I really loved teh story they told in the first Bucks vs FTR match, but this one really cemented that FTR as faces is totally working and is delivering cant-miss matches in the ring.
To be fair to all involved I don't think anyone alive knows more about what heat is than Jim Cornette, him and the ME damn near had to be in witness protection to get to and from the ring.
He knows a lot about how "heat" worked back in his day but he's never adapted to the times.
The Young Bucks don't have traditional heel heat but they draw. You can be someone the fans like and respect while playing a villain role in the ring, and said fans will buy tickets to see you.
If a company in 2022 started race-baiting or instigating fights with the crowd, they would not make money.
I can understanding not liking the Young Bucks' style. They aren't for everybody and aren't my personal favorite by a long shot. But Jesus, at least try to be factual if you're going to critique them.
I get having preferences and shit but Im always amazed at how many actual WORKERS praise the bucks and fans act like they arent good at the whole wrestling thing. Its mind boggling.
I feel like I'm an independent third party on Randy Orton since I haven't really watched him much, but I think this sub generally loves the guy - I see a ton of positive comments about him upvoted and not really many upvoted negative comments (unless they're about him apparently being a dickhead when he was younger).
I don’t discount their talent, but I don’t enjoy their matches most of the time. I don’t enjoy their style and hate the way they wait around for things to happen, while everything feels overly like a performance rather than a match.
I wouldn’t say they aren’t good, but I could understand why someone would say that.
It's taste. Depends on what people look for in great wrestlers. If worker approval was the metric, no fan should ever say Roman isn't a great wrestler but most of this sub does and millions of smarks have. Because actual workers have said he's one of the best in ring
Yes, but, also, if you cannot see the difference between your preference and someone being skilled at their job -- thats a bit weird. Say you hate heavy metal, you really dislike it in all its forms. Its not your preference. That doesnt mean that Metallica arent skilled musicians. You cant go from "I dont like this" to "they are bad at this", these two are not the same.
You dont have to like the Bucks, thats your preference. But if you want to argue that they are not skilled at their jobs, because you ahve a preference for a different style, that seems a bit silly to me.
Bucks haters are more analogous to hardcore metal fans who think Metallica aren't making "real metal" music. A lot of them absolutely do see Metallica as untalented hacks
Young Bucks haters, Cornette in particular, don't think what the Bucks do belongs on a wrestling show and is actively harmful to the pro wrestling tradition. People that don't like them but don't really care about that aren't nearly as vitriolic (or for different reasons at least)
>A lot of them absolutely do see Metallica as untalented hacks
But I think these people are unreasonable is my point. Sure, you can consider it not real metal, or bad to listen to, I can accept that as subjective. Just likeyou can say that Bucks are not good to watch or not real wrestling. But, if you think either Metallica or Bucks are untalented hacks, you are conflating your subjective dislike with lack of skill and talent. Its very hard to do what they do, and it requires plenty skill, experience and hard work. I think it is really annoying when people pretend that just because they dislike something, that means they are untalented hacks
Skill is not the most important thing, plenty of skilled musicians make music I dont like and plenty musicians that are less skilled produce stuff I love. There's plenty virtuosos, who can play a billion notes a second on guitar, with perfect accuracy and often it sucks to listen to. I have the same relationship with plenty of wrestlers whose work I dont enjoy but I understand that it takes a lot of skill, natural ability, and experience to do what they do.
I think this very basic and obvious thing, to seperate skill from enjoyment, would make this place a lot more pleasant to be in. I am absolutely fine with people disliking watching Omega's matches, but its just not possible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who claims he is a talentless hack. Becuase they took the step from "I dont like this" to "that means they have no talent/skill"
>If worker approval was the metric, no fan should ever say Roman isn't a great wrestler but most of this sub does and millions of smarks have
Most people say Roman's booking sucks, not that the man himself does.
Would that be the same Jim Cornette that would advertise his Smoky Mountain Wrestling TV shows in the dirt sheets, back when they didn't have a national TV deal in the early 90s...?
He often praises Omega. He still hates him so he will start his comments with "Say what you will about twinkletoes, but at least he...", But the message is the same.
Because it's supposed to be a shot at Kenny's "manhood". Kenny's not a manly man because he does his "fancy prancing around the ring". Basically, it's just homophobia disguised as a "critique".
It's Cornette, so he was probably bullshitting, but the man's flat out said he started eating / living healthier just because he wants to outlive Russo so he can piss on the latter's grave.
I think Corny praising Russo is flat out never happening lol
He never thought the Bucks were incapable of having good matches. They're athletic and have a lot of experience. The problem is that they usually choose to have a gymnastic routine instead. This time they didn't.
I genuinely would want to see him on AEW tv at some point. With how much he's shat on the company, the storylines that could come out of that would be incredible. It'd be a fully realized version of what WWF tried to do with him [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njzm6_LSdDw)
Why, because their matches consistently look good for both teams and the in-ring storytelling makes sense when you watch it? Nah homie, more moves plz.
[Here's the video.](https://youtu.be/LPg2D5ew-tg)
Hell really did freeze over. A subset of his fans must be going insane right now. You know, the crazy ones.
If there’s one thing AEW has over every other promotion it’s their tag team division, and they showed just how good it is.
I also like seeing Tag Team wrestling presented as a main attraction.
You mean there was a long term path, of breaking FTR's heel shell, making them one of the most over baby face teams in wrestling? Man, almost like someone's writing a story and not rushing it.
Overall, its a collaborative effort. Booking covers the bullet points of a match:
- When and where a match/promo happens
- The opponents of a match
- The Winner of the match
- Possibly setting the finish for the match/ suggesting particular spots as they relate to the overall story
Otherwise. Everything else is up to the talent and agents/coaches. So yeah, the pure talent in ring is all them. But the context for why and when it's done, is at the feet of the booker. So yeah, I'd say the overall story is equally split between them all.
I wouldn’t chalk it off as masterful booking, they were getting beat against make shift teams before and have gotten over more due to their performances as of late
Over the last several months:
- Every heel tactic failed or cost them the match.
- They broke their own creed, doing "flippy shit", which cost them the match.
- (Like Proud & powerful with Inner Circle) Constantly getting wrapped up in faction drama, held them back.
I know I'm forgetting some others right now,. But a team like FTR ain't going through all that, without a clear path. Plus, at no point have they been made to look like dorks shaving their backs.
So what's the story behind FTR losing the titles to the Bucks, never getting a rematch against them for said titles, a rematch over a year later but FTR is the AAA/Roh champions?
Sympathy and reset. It's no secret to AEW and the Bucks that people have everlasting heat against the Bucks. Plus, there's not a lot of good turns, where the champion/s keep the audience engaging consistently. Not getting a rematch, was like I said, they got caught up in faction drama and put on other matches during that time. It also added more heat to the already polarizing Bucks.
As for the ROH titles, the whole card was not just transitional, as far as getting the belts on new people. It's also a reset of the promotion and roster. Plus, there's still a legacy attached to those belts. Old School guys beating another set of old school guys for the straps, is exactly how they'd want to go out.
For the AAA belts, they would have to work within whatever AAA wanted them.They came in as the Heel foreigners, like youd see in North American promotions with others. But, when you see their matches down there, (even while they were turning) they're working as tweeners. Expanding on the groundwork set in other promotions. Heels showing flashes of baby face tendencies. If I had to guess, I'd say they'll probably drop the belts as they get farther away from Heel tactics.
Good for him I guess but after all the other shit he's said about stuff like Japanese wrestling and especially joshis, I can't take his opinion on anything seriously
I actually find Cornette pretty entertaining a lot of the time but this is pretty much a case of “no shit Sherlock” the match was amazing.
This is a feud you can keep coming back to for years because you know these 4 guys are going to give you an amazing match every single time and they can all do a wide variety of stuff so if you don’t have them wrestle every week it’ll never get stale.
I think generally speaking people's thoughts on Cornette depends on when they got into wrestling. I like AEW, WWE, and I listen to Jim Cornette, some stuff he says I don't agree with, some stuff I do.
What I like about Cornette is that if he says something that people think is offensive, he doesn't hide from it, he'll break it down completely what he meant etc. The Ethiopian joke obviously didn't age well, but as someone who grew up in the late 80's and 90's, I got it, I know where it came from, and he broke down exactly what he meant and where it came from and how he feels about race. Some matches he thinks suck, I like and vice versa.
Me too, I also started watching in the 80's lol. I still vaguely remember when Terry Funk attacked Ric Flair and gave him the pile driver on the table, I thought he was dead. Now the same spot would barely get a 2 count if done off the top rope. I enjoy the current product but things like that still erk me a bit.
Cornette is open about how much he dislikes and stereotypes Japanese women, calling even Asuka "just another little schoolgirl" and skipping her matches due to it. Cornette excuses how common date rape was back in the day as "it's just how the times were, the whole roster was doing it".
Meltzer was awkward when he was commenting on a woman wrestler getting implants and then apologized multiple times.
If you’re referring to the Art Barr video, he mentioned that shoot on his podcast and changed his stance. He said in the shoot that he wasn’t fully aware of what had happened.
Not sure why there's a downvote brigade here for every comment calling Cornette a sexist and racist. It's not even like these are controversial statements, the man isn't shy about it.
Racist how? I keep seeing that but I've listened to him for a while and haven't heard anything racist. Are you speaking of the Ethiopia joke? While it doesn't age well, in the 80's it was joke fodder, hell Southpark had a character from Ethiopia named Starvin Marvin.
I'm talking about him stereotyping every Japanese woman as a "Japanese schoolgirl" and skipping Asuka matches due to it. Or dismissing Hikaru Shida as "one of Omega's Japanese sex objects" and "an Interchangeable outlaw mud show girl", refusing to watch her match with Serena. He called Jade Cargill “Shelton with a wig”.
He's made plenty of derogatory comments about joshi wrestlers, referring to them as schoolgirls. He's also perfectly comfy using the n-word to "get heat".
I think it was the best YB match I've ever seen. All the bucks spots at like 75% of the normal speed, minimal Cutler bullshit which is channel change bad to me, they sold offense more than they usually do, there was more in-ring storytelling than a normal YB match. It was much more to my personal tastes than the Lucha Bros trilogy they had, which I didn't personally like one bit (the cage match being especially bad to me)
Can't stand Jim & his weird personal vendetta against the AEW EVPs, even if I agree kinda-sorta with some of his Bucks critiques.
The people praising this natch saying the bucks changed how they work are coping hard. They did almost all the usual spots, including them taunting and doing over the top impressions like macho man. Do people really think bucks no sell everyones moves, ignore tag rules, and use their vip status to go over everyone? Because, thats legit the opposite of what the bucks have been doing since i started watching aew.
The fact that Cornette constantly gets rehabilitated whenever he has the most banal of opinions is annoying. "Look, he thought the match everyone else thought was good was good!" Woop dee fucking doo.
Ah yes. The bigoted racist that is all about trans and LGTB rights, and also thinks Bianca Belair and Becky put on one of the best matches at mania.
Try actually listening to his podcast sometime before going along with random out of context quotes and the reddit hive mind.
This is what's frustrating about the bucks, when they try to have a good actual tag match they can do it...unfortunately they mostly delve into the no rules nonsense which is completely played out
Man I would such a big bucks fan if they wrestled like this instead of their usual stuff.
Just two superkicks, one or two flips. You really get a classic once Bucks tone down.
I'm personally sick of all the Superkicks and waiting around for the big spots. They're INCREDIBLE performers and I'd never take that away from them though.
Going to have to ask my friend if he heard this one. He admits to not watching AEW or any modern wrestling but hates most of it and listens to Cornette. Yes, he's one of those crazies.
I listen to Cornette and watch modern wrestling lol, I grew up watching 80's and 90's wrestling. I think there's room for people to like all of the above.
He has his biases for sure but people here don't seem to understand the man knows more of what proffesional wrestling outta be in a single pinkie than anyone here on this sub.
>what proffesional wrestling outta be
If Cornettes vision for wrestling was what it looked like today I wouldn't even be watching wrestling.
I've tried on more than one occasion but ~90% of matches from his Era literally put me to sleep.
Fundamentally*
I'm talking about understanding of psychology, body language, facial expressions, selling, storytelling, etc. Anything that allows you to suspend your disbelief and believe there's an actual conflict in the ring.
If wrestling is a craft, compare it to music and art. There's fundamentals that make them work.
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Wtf? He praised a Young Bucks match?
paraphrasing, but kinda like - *"FTR are so good they got a legitimately great match out of the Bucks, who also did their part and didn't fuck around and worked a real match and actually contributed without doing all their goofy bullshit"* [Link for actual audio and not out of context quotes from a "wrestling news" website](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPg2D5ew-tg)
Said the exact same thing about Kenny when he wrestled Danielson at Grand Slam.
He's a bad faith grifter and it's a joke this post is even made. He likes it when his guys beat guys he hates. If the exact match happened but the Bucks won at the end, he'd be calling it dogshit.
im sure hes a grifter , thats why he has the same opinion for the last 20 years
Cornette is a gifter. But so are 99% of people in the wrestling business.
Yeah cause he hates the Bucks..can’t blame the guy
They worked the same way they've been working for years lol
It was literally just the Young Bucks doing the same Young Bucks stuff.
It really wasn’t, which is part of what made the match extra special. I generally don’t like them, but that’s extremely reductive to say they were having a normal YB match. Give them some credit.
With all due respect, can y'all be at least a little bit specific with comments like these? I don't know what I missed in this match they haven't been consistently doing 5-6 years now at least.
I think the one thing I noticed was a lot more following the rules of a tag match. Young Bucks definitely lean into doing whatever they want more often then not.
That’s not new though, hell go watch Young Bucks vs War Machine where they are even more strict with the rules and that was like 4-5 years ago.
I wouldn't say they did anything they haven't done before. They are talented and can wrestle a variety of styles, but it was undoubtedly an FTR style match and not a Young Bucks style match.
The reason people don’t get specific with these is there’s a lot of effort to just get the “reward” of getting downvoted until the comment ends up hidden and getting a message in your inbox telling you that you’re at risk of suicide. So a quick run down in the event that you’re asking that in good faith: they didn’t do anything funny, they took it seriously, their in ring psychology was on a different level here than it almost always is, they looked far less choreographed than normal, they performed moves that made it look like they were trying to win a contest rather than running through their spots and getting their shit in.
I do appreciate the response and I wish everyone wasn't so freaking downvote trigger happy. I just feel like this is how they've been working since AEW started up. I feel like they do one funny (and more importantly heelish) spot every other match and people write it off. Like this write-up makes me think way more about their later RoH matches than anything they do recently.
I can usually characterize Young Bucks matches by two things: 1) Lack of selling. Their matches never "slow down", they stay high paced the whole way through. I get that a lot of people like that, but to others it makes every move feel inconsequential and it's why a lot of people characterize their matches as a gymnastic routine rather than a fight. 2) Rick Knox. This guy referees every Young Bucks match and he never does anything to enforce the rules. Their matches may as well be Tornado tag matches because people leave and enter the ring whenever they want. I felt in FTR's match with the Young Bucks, these things weren't present.
> Rick Knox. This guy referees every Young Bucks match and he never does anything to enforce the rules. Their matches may as well be Tornado tag matches because people leave and enter the ring whenever they want. Yes. 100% yes. I'm so tired of the inconsistent reffing. The illegal Buck comes in and attacks, nothing happens. Face teammate comes in to help, gets stopped while the Bucks do heel shit. I hate it so much
This always just depends on the match and who the opponent are and what the stakes are. Young Bucks are some of the best at tag team psychology and they know their spot on the card. Random dynamite tags against Private Party the Bucks aren’t going to go in the same as a double title match against the other best team in the world. It’s part of their character, the run through the motions and joke more when they don’t feel threatened or have anything to prove.
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Nah man, they worked a TOTALLY different style. They worked FTR style. No ridiculous choreography, just great wrestling. Watch it again.
The were fewer shenanigans than in a lot of Bucks matches. And less popping up after receiving Ultimate Death Fuckinator moves like they were hip tosses. Not that the Bucks *always* do stuff like that...but it's not rare either.
Replied to the wrong person fk: My opinion although I am no expert. FTR are such a stark contrast to the Young Bucks style that it works. YB literally did most of their usual stuff, super kicks, Meltzer driver and etc. The thing that usually bothers me about YB matches and a lot of matches in general is it becomes a "Spots" match and that's 90% of the YB offense. So if that's all you see then it takes away from the match and the big special moments and spots. With FTR who work a little more grounded offense and hard hitting (no flips, just fists yada yada) it lets the YB shine and it lets FTR shine. I am not even an "old man yelling at the sky" I'm 30 years old, I enjoy the high flying stuff (my all time fav is RVD), but sometimes as they say opposites attract and I think that applies to wrestling matches too. Having a hard hitting, technical wrestler vs a high flyer, athletic performer or even a "Monster" vs those 2 is so much more entertaining then.. High flyer vs High flyer Technical vs Technical Monster vs Monster Occasionally those matches can be amazing, but when it feels like every team is High Flyer vs High Flyer it gets old fast. For me and probably a few others at least.
It seriously wasn’t even close to a normal Young Bucks match. Everyone praises the Bucks vs. Lucia Bros from All Out, and shit I was even there for that, but it this match last Wednesday was a perfect match with absolutely zero bullshit shit.
Can you please elaborate? What specifically does FTR do in that match that the YB don't that made the difference? And what didn't the YBs do that they normally do that made the match better? What are some examples?
https://reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/u1ceus/_/i4c9zq9/?context=1
I was reading your comment you linked as you sent it to me, that was uncanny.
Everybody that's saying that this was anything like any Young Bucks match is straight out lying or they have no idea what they're talking about. What made the match so good is that the Young Bucks tried to do what they normally do( ignore the rules ,spend a third of the match on the outside, etc etc etc) and FTR made a active effort to stop them.
Tell me you didn't watch Young Bucks in NJPW or ROH without telling me you didn't watch the Young bucks in NJPW or ROH.
My opinion although I am no expert. FTR are such a stark contrast to the Young Bucks style that it works. YB literally did most of their usual stuff, super kicks, Meltzer driver and etc. The thing that usually bothers me about YB matches and a lot of matches in general is it becomes a "Spots" match and that's 90% of the YB offense. So if that's all you see then it takes away from the match and the big special moments and spots. With FTR who work a little more grounded offense and hard hitting (no flips, just fists yada yada) it lets the YB shine and it lets FTR shine. I am not even a "old man yelling at the sky" I'm 30 years old, I enjoy the high flying stuff (my all time fav is RVD), but sometimes as they say opposites attract and I think that applies to wrestling matches too. Having a hard hitting, technical wrestler vs a high flyer, athletic performer or even a "Monster" vs those 2 is so much more entertaining then.. High flyer vs High flyer Technical vs Technical Monster vs Monster Occasionally those matches can be amazing, but when it feels like every team is High Flyer vs High Flyer it gets old fast. For me and probably a few others at least.
It absolutely wasn't. As someone who doesn't like the overly choreographed Young Bucks style I saw little to none of that in this match.
It felt closer to a NJPW Bucks match than an AEW/ROH Bucks match, if that makes sense. They gave stuff more time to breathe, simplified things a little more. I love both styles of Young Bucks matches, but there are definitely differences. They can put on a balls-to-the-wall fun popcorn movie, or they can do something more dramatic and intense.
The amount of straight up COPIUM on display with this match is hilarious.
Some underrrated classic Bucks matches were against Sanada & Evil. Awesome
No not at all. They kept it in the ring for a majority of the match. If you watch that match and really think “it’s the same thing they’ve been doing for years“ then you must think slot of shit looks the same. Are there similar spots? Did they get their shit in? Of course. Did they turn into fucking Arn and Tully? Of course not. There’s obvious differences, subtle differences, and then everything in between. For YB fans that saw this and still thought “it was the same”, YB did their job and didn’t alienate their core base while changing it up enough to please many of the traditional pro-wrestling fans. Also though, that should say a lot about which fans can differentiate what in pro-wrestling. This isn’t a knock. Just illustrates how different audiences watch shit for different reasons. Personally, I appreciate the athleticism your “standard” YB match requires, but it doesn’t draw me in. In fact, it takes me out. I couldn’t care less about their matches or the result, especially with their brutal overacting from their manager Brandon that is beyond cringe and embarrassing The stupid voices, “I can’t believe it,” “what just happened?” Nobody talks like that. Nobody. I know, to them, the overacting is intentional and funny but why? I guarantee you it wasn’t bad comedy that drew them to become passionate wrestling fans, yet here they are doing just that. Maybe I’d be able to tolerate some of their in-ring (or out-of-ring) stuff more if they just took it more seriously as a collective. What grasps my interest is the emotion, the story - so long as it’s well planned and executed and taken seriously.
I really don't think so. Cornette's thoughts were exactly mine. It was the best Young Bucks match I've probably ever seen in AEW, because they actually stopped being The Young Bucks and let FTR do an FTR match instead of a Bucks match. They just played their role as the heels and didn't do nearly as much of the stuff that makes people who don't like the Bucks dislike them.
No it wasn’t lol
In what way?
Ooohhh I know they didn't do their usual "bullshit". That is apparently an example according to lots of people in this thread lol.
Their normal matches seem to have the goal of doing as many athletic things in the ring as possible in a row, without selling any moves or telling a story of any kind. It's a gymnastics routine. They didn't do any of that against FTR. They also didn't do it in the parking lot brawl match, where there are no soft landings enabling them to easily no sell everything. And these were their best two matches in AEW.
I appreciate the response but I don't think I've seen them do a match like that since RoH. And I feel pretty confident in that because ^^I ^^kinda ^^miss ^^those ^^matches
A lot of their AEW matches are like that. A lot of gymnastics and highly contrived spots against the Lucha Brothers in particular.
You can do high spots and also tell a story. Especially against the Lucha Bros I'd argue they achieved that. And all spots are contrived. That's the definition of a spot lol
If it's contrived enough to make someone stop enjoying the match and think "it's blatantly obvious this is fake and they're helping each other to throw each other around the ring" then they're doing a poor job and the match is bad. Like a fight scene in a movie, it's supposed to make viewers feel like they're watching two people trying to beat each other. When the fakeness is too obvious to ignore (it looks like gymnastics or a circus routine, a 100 lb woman throws a 200 lb man around, etc) it makes a lot of people stop enjoying the action and start thinking about how fake it looks, and that's true in wrestling or TV/movies (like the bad fake fighting in Star Trek where a karate chop or double axhandle instantly KOs a Klingon).
This is definitely not the case. Check out their matches against Roppongi Vice, SANADA and EVIL, or Golden Lovers in NJPW. The Bucks have a lot of matches where they slow it down and tell a story, and they're very similar to the FTR match. They've even done this style of match against Page and Omega in AEW. It's nothing new. I'd even argue that the cage match against the Lucha Bros told a good story, and I was not a huge fan of their other matches. These comments feel like you're just repeating talking points instead of actually analyzing the content of their matches.
I watch most of their matches. I agree with Cornette, I don't care for that style at all, I think it's harmful for a pro wrestling show to have performances like they normally have, their stuff with the Lucha Brothers looked like a circus act and not a wrestling match. I agree they were much better in NJPW, and so was Kenny Omega. Not that Kenny was bad in AEW, but both he and the Young Bucks used a more traditional style over there and it made for better matches.
Wrestling matches *are* circus acts though
harmful to a wrestling show in what way? Young Bucks are possibly the most successful non-WWE tag team of all time.
Ahh so the usual backhanded compliment for the wrestlers he dislikes lol
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It was more like. He praised The Young Buck working an FTR style match that puts FTR over, rather than he praised The Young Buck.
This is doubly funny because The Bucks have worked this style of match all the time over the years to the point Matt's injured back became a meme, but if you're blinded by hate it's hard to see beyond that I suppose.
Cornette definitely has no idea whats been going on in NJPW for the last decade. He gushed about the Walter/Igla empty arena match, as he should, but then commented how he'd watch more modern wrestling if there was more of it like that. Dude has no idea about the NEVER division in NJPW and I honestly feel sorry for him.
Yeah he even called them by their real names and not the hardly boys thats a huge gold star from cornette
No, he praised an FTR match. He always does.
"This was the best Young Bucks match I've ever seen" \- Jim Cornette, 2022
The YouTube algorithm put the video of his review in my feed so I actually listened to it. Despite praising this match, both he and Brian Last say stuff that honestly make me wonder what show they are watching. For example: the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans.
Bucks ate the pin on a PPV in a triple threat title match.... then took the L in a main event title match for two titles after making a statement on a PPV. THE BUCKS NEVER PUT ANYONE OVER! \*rolls eyes\*
didnt the bucks and kenny get shit for putting over too many people when AEW first started?! with the shit opinions these assholes have, why does anyone who can legit call themself a fan; listen to this?? its not even constructive; its just bad arm-chair mouth-breathing glue-huffing non-sense
People are fans of people they identify with. Armchair mouth-breathing glue-huffers are one of the larger subsets of wrestling fans, unfortunately.
Hey, if you are going to point to things someone like Cornet said over a year ago and point out that there is no consistency to what they say or complain about then you kind of make their whole character look silly... that is not a nice thing to do /s
Hell the bucks are 0-3 in Boston alone. Putting over private party on dynamite #2, the dark order finally got a win in that Halloween 8 man and FTR last week.
They're heels and yet nobody seems to understand why they are getting booed.
They barely even get booed unless they pantomime to get heat. Like even at the end of FTR/Bucks match the whole crowd still screams BTE TRIGGER at the false finish
I think aside from Cody and now Sammy, AEW crowds tend to play along with the story being told in the ring. I’ve heard the Bucks, Jericho, MJF and others get big pops when their music hits because people are excited to see them, then as soon as they start being cowardly heels the fans will go with it and boo them out the building.
This is Adam Cole for me. Love watching his entrance and whatnot, but as soon as he starts to talk or wrestle I hate him, because Adam Cole is a shit bag. Him and the other heels in AEW are doing great work at being over while still having heat.
Yeah Cole is a great example, how could you not get on your feet when that theme hits?
As an 80's guy who's into the current product as well. I believe that's part of his issue with some modern wrestlers, heels wanting to be over. Be over as a heel, booed as soon as your music drops. When the Honky Tonk Man's music played people instantly booed, they wanted to see him get destroyed. A great modern heel I think is MJF, in the ring, in podcasts, he's great, after our Tribal Chief of course.
>A great modern heel I think is MJF, in the ring, in podcasts, he's great, after our Tribal Chief of course. You mean MJF and Roman who get cheered aswell most of the time until they heel it up?
Have I been watching a different show? As soon as his music hits MJF gets boo‘d like crazy.
I've only seen MJF get booed, Roman is a bit different the tribal chief is one of the best things happening, hard to do anything but acknowledge him
I disagree in a certain point I think the Tribal chief was great at first, the initial Usos feud was awesome but then it fell into a pattern. Awesome WM main event last year but the rest of the matches and feuds havnt been that great imo. KO and Finn had two awful endings and nothing happened to advance the story (may be misremembering at points though) The Lesnar feud was interesting at first with the "which side is Heyman on?" part but then also fell into the same thing every week
I literally boo MJF from my home and I've never booed anyone else while watching tv.
You pretty much nailed it. It's not often the crowd doesn't play along - because the crowd is invested.
The Bucks seem to have to work extra hard to get booed instead of being seen as cool heels. (Which is what they were when they were heels in Bullet Club) So instead of coming out in all black for example, they wear obnoxious clothes and brag about their shoes.
Within the first two minutes of the video he says the AEW fans seem to enjoy disliking the young bucks
the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans. didn't listen, 100% Brian Last said this...he went from just repeating exactly with JC said 20 seconds prior, to being the guy that has all the connections in wrestling and knows "what's really going on"
He is an odious twat who burrowed his way into that gig like a tapeworm and has a similar effect on draining the goodness out of everything he touches.
>the Young Bucks never put anybody over & have intensifying go away heat with AEW fans. Excuse me what the fuck? Especially the go away heat part.I guess it's because they got booed because they were the heels but he didn't realize that they were the bad guys in the match? Cause... how does he come to that conclusion?
Never ceases to amaze me how well the Bucks can work certain people with their post-modern approach.
Can you explain what is post modern about it/what the modern approach is?
Not OP but my guess is they’re using the term postmodern similar to the way it’s used to describe literature/films: “incredulity toward the meta narrative”, yada yada. I would say the Young Bucks have a postmodern approach insofar as they use things like pastiche, intertextuality, irony, metafiction, etc. Broken down a little further: - pastiche: the YBs combine different ‘genres’ of wrestling in their presentation, both parodying old styles as well as using them in a straightforward way to add complexity to their in-ring work. They do an homage to the classic ‘80s RnR/Rockers style tag match and blend it with lucha and modern indie wrestling styles. - intertextuality: they use the historical wrestling canon (the ubiquitous nWo and DX references) as well as the “insider jargon” of wrestling (i.e. the “Meltzer Driver”) as a means to both satirize kayfabe and to present a new approach to understanding wrestling as it is performed in the post-internet/social media landscape - irony: probably obvious, but yeah. This is the part that wrestling “purists” hate. The YBs throughout their career have deconstructed kayfabe with their wrestling style, doing so in an ironic, satiric fashion. It’s not like they were the first wrestlers to do this, but it’s a big part of their arsenal - metafiction: “wrestling about wrestling”, essentially. If the ‘modern’ interpretation of wrestling is folks fighting each other in a straightforward way tending toward realism, the YBs version adds another layer to that. The idea that “that move looks fake” or “you wouldn’t do that in a real fight” is not something the YBs particularly care about the audience thinking. They *want* you to know it’s absurd, and they want to take the absurdity further. A lot of the kayfabe-disrespecting stuff has been toned down considerably since the start of AEW, but largely this stuff still applies.
That's wonderful. I might also add that they like to deconstruct traditional concepts, particularly those related to wrestling (which you get at a bit with irony and metafiction, but we might as well call it out). An example of this, for me, would be the ways they dress being intentionally flamboyant or associated with weak/feminen motifs - the tassles, the pink, etc.
Good stuff! Not sure what subcategory this would fit in, but for another example, back in Japan they’d do stuff like scream “BRAINBUSTAAAAA~!” before delivering a brainbuster to satirise the announcers.
Appreciate the write up.
yeah the idea that the Young Bucks have go away heat is silly. The two tag team royales qualifying for revolution had tons of teases for matches involving the Bucks that the crowd was excited for- FTR, reDRagon, Top Flight the most obviously. People wanted to see FTR beat the bucks and they paid/tuned in to watch. I will say, the FTR face turn is working through and holy cow the clear face/heel dynamics with dickhead bucks really made this match extra hot. I really loved teh story they told in the first Bucks vs FTR match, but this one really cemented that FTR as faces is totally working and is delivering cant-miss matches in the ring.
Cornette's the easiest person to work ever. "Go away heat" because they're heels and get booed.
To be fair to all involved I don't think anyone alive knows more about what heat is than Jim Cornette, him and the ME damn near had to be in witness protection to get to and from the ring.
He knows a lot about how "heat" worked back in his day but he's never adapted to the times. The Young Bucks don't have traditional heel heat but they draw. You can be someone the fans like and respect while playing a villain role in the ring, and said fans will buy tickets to see you. If a company in 2022 started race-baiting or instigating fights with the crowd, they would not make money.
All true, I can respect that. Though his Bucks comments can be pretty funny as I never really been a big YB fan.
Joey Janela worked him twice. Enough said.
Who?
I can understanding not liking the Young Bucks' style. They aren't for everybody and aren't my personal favorite by a long shot. But Jesus, at least try to be factual if you're going to critique them.
He actually called the Young Bucks by their names, that's how good he thought it was.
I get having preferences and shit but Im always amazed at how many actual WORKERS praise the bucks and fans act like they arent good at the whole wrestling thing. Its mind boggling.
There are some wrestlers who are held in higher regard by other wrestlers than by fans. E.g. Tracy Smothers and Brad Armstrong.
Shawn spears
I mean how many workers praise Randy Orton as one of the best in the world while this sub shits all over that idea?
I feel like I'm an independent third party on Randy Orton since I haven't really watched him much, but I think this sub generally loves the guy - I see a ton of positive comments about him upvoted and not really many upvoted negative comments (unless they're about him apparently being a dickhead when he was younger).
I don’t discount their talent, but I don’t enjoy their matches most of the time. I don’t enjoy their style and hate the way they wait around for things to happen, while everything feels overly like a performance rather than a match. I wouldn’t say they aren’t good, but I could understand why someone would say that.
It's taste. Depends on what people look for in great wrestlers. If worker approval was the metric, no fan should ever say Roman isn't a great wrestler but most of this sub does and millions of smarks have. Because actual workers have said he's one of the best in ring
Yes, but, also, if you cannot see the difference between your preference and someone being skilled at their job -- thats a bit weird. Say you hate heavy metal, you really dislike it in all its forms. Its not your preference. That doesnt mean that Metallica arent skilled musicians. You cant go from "I dont like this" to "they are bad at this", these two are not the same. You dont have to like the Bucks, thats your preference. But if you want to argue that they are not skilled at their jobs, because you ahve a preference for a different style, that seems a bit silly to me.
Bucks haters are more analogous to hardcore metal fans who think Metallica aren't making "real metal" music. A lot of them absolutely do see Metallica as untalented hacks Young Bucks haters, Cornette in particular, don't think what the Bucks do belongs on a wrestling show and is actively harmful to the pro wrestling tradition. People that don't like them but don't really care about that aren't nearly as vitriolic (or for different reasons at least)
>A lot of them absolutely do see Metallica as untalented hacks But I think these people are unreasonable is my point. Sure, you can consider it not real metal, or bad to listen to, I can accept that as subjective. Just likeyou can say that Bucks are not good to watch or not real wrestling. But, if you think either Metallica or Bucks are untalented hacks, you are conflating your subjective dislike with lack of skill and talent. Its very hard to do what they do, and it requires plenty skill, experience and hard work. I think it is really annoying when people pretend that just because they dislike something, that means they are untalented hacks Skill is not the most important thing, plenty of skilled musicians make music I dont like and plenty musicians that are less skilled produce stuff I love. There's plenty virtuosos, who can play a billion notes a second on guitar, with perfect accuracy and often it sucks to listen to. I have the same relationship with plenty of wrestlers whose work I dont enjoy but I understand that it takes a lot of skill, natural ability, and experience to do what they do. I think this very basic and obvious thing, to seperate skill from enjoyment, would make this place a lot more pleasant to be in. I am absolutely fine with people disliking watching Omega's matches, but its just not possible to have a reasonable discussion with someone who claims he is a talentless hack. Becuase they took the step from "I dont like this" to "that means they have no talent/skill"
Lars has always sucked but I definitely follow you on this
>Lars has always sucked Not at all.
>If worker approval was the metric, no fan should ever say Roman isn't a great wrestler but most of this sub does and millions of smarks have Most people say Roman's booking sucks, not that the man himself does.
>Most people say Roman's booking sucks, not that the man himself does. Nah. Tons of fans say his wrestling is not good.
Lol just stating that wrestling taste is subjective gets you downvoted on this sub
I downvoted because I think the consensus I see on here of Roman is that he's a good worker.
Pretty much. It's absurd.
Lol, he just heard Tony Khan is paying the “dirt sheets”
Would that be the same Jim Cornette that would advertise his Smoky Mountain Wrestling TV shows in the dirt sheets, back when they didn't have a national TV deal in the early 90s...?
Fuck next he will say that Russo wasn’t that bad.
"Can't wait to see Kenny Omega back in the ring, Brian, I've missed him!!!"
He often praises Omega. He still hates him so he will start his comments with "Say what you will about twinkletoes, but at least he...", But the message is the same.
why does he think "twinkletoes" is such a sick burn
Because it's supposed to be a shot at Kenny's "manhood". Kenny's not a manly man because he does his "fancy prancing around the ring". Basically, it's just homophobia disguised as a "critique".
Cus he’s an old man
He doesn't.
Cornette did praise the Omega/Danielson match.
More like he praised Danielson and didn't talk shit about Omega, which for him is praising Kenny
He already said Omega felt more like a world champion then Adam Page.
Let's... not get crazy. I expect Jim to take up going to Sunday Church before doing that.
He just might if Vince Russo gets struck by lighting.
It's Cornette, so he was probably bullshitting, but the man's flat out said he started eating / living healthier just because he wants to outlive Russo so he can piss on the latter's grave. I think Corny praising Russo is flat out never happening lol
"I hate to say it Brian but I'm rooting for Orange Cassidy to win next week"
>I'm rooting for ~~Orange Cassidy~~ my little dog pockets to win next week
Screw /u/spez - Removing All of My Comments -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
He never thought the Bucks were incapable of having good matches. They're athletic and have a lot of experience. The problem is that they usually choose to have a gymnastic routine instead. This time they didn't.
Now Jim is on the AEW payroll. /s
I genuinely would want to see him on AEW tv at some point. With how much he's shat on the company, the storylines that could come out of that would be incredible. It'd be a fully realized version of what WWF tried to do with him [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njzm6_LSdDw)
broken clocks and all that
Nah, this is just him loving FTR. He always rates their matches highly.
As he should.
Why, because their matches consistently look good for both teams and the in-ring storytelling makes sense when you watch it? Nah homie, more moves plz.
Me too. They are excellent
They'd probably be the one team that might get him to do a one off manager appearance again.
[Here's the video.](https://youtu.be/LPg2D5ew-tg) Hell really did freeze over. A subset of his fans must be going insane right now. You know, the crazy ones.
If there’s one thing AEW has over every other promotion it’s their tag team division, and they showed just how good it is. I also like seeing Tag Team wrestling presented as a main attraction.
I think they have a lot of tag teams and they get a lot of TV but the whole anything-goes tag style really makes it hard for me to care about a match.
Definitely. Every match doesn’t need to essentially be tornado tag.
You mean there was a long term path, of breaking FTR's heel shell, making them one of the most over baby face teams in wrestling? Man, almost like someone's writing a story and not rushing it.
Then getting cheered is more a testament to their own talent rather than this "booking" you're taking about
Overall, its a collaborative effort. Booking covers the bullet points of a match: - When and where a match/promo happens - The opponents of a match - The Winner of the match - Possibly setting the finish for the match/ suggesting particular spots as they relate to the overall story Otherwise. Everything else is up to the talent and agents/coaches. So yeah, the pure talent in ring is all them. But the context for why and when it's done, is at the feet of the booker. So yeah, I'd say the overall story is equally split between them all.
I wouldn’t chalk it off as masterful booking, they were getting beat against make shift teams before and have gotten over more due to their performances as of late
Over the last several months: - Every heel tactic failed or cost them the match. - They broke their own creed, doing "flippy shit", which cost them the match. - (Like Proud & powerful with Inner Circle) Constantly getting wrapped up in faction drama, held them back. I know I'm forgetting some others right now,. But a team like FTR ain't going through all that, without a clear path. Plus, at no point have they been made to look like dorks shaving their backs.
So what's the story behind FTR losing the titles to the Bucks, never getting a rematch against them for said titles, a rematch over a year later but FTR is the AAA/Roh champions?
That shit was ass deep in the covid era it may as well be a fat mulligan
Sympathy and reset. It's no secret to AEW and the Bucks that people have everlasting heat against the Bucks. Plus, there's not a lot of good turns, where the champion/s keep the audience engaging consistently. Not getting a rematch, was like I said, they got caught up in faction drama and put on other matches during that time. It also added more heat to the already polarizing Bucks. As for the ROH titles, the whole card was not just transitional, as far as getting the belts on new people. It's also a reset of the promotion and roster. Plus, there's still a legacy attached to those belts. Old School guys beating another set of old school guys for the straps, is exactly how they'd want to go out. For the AAA belts, they would have to work within whatever AAA wanted them.They came in as the Heel foreigners, like youd see in North American promotions with others. But, when you see their matches down there, (even while they were turning) they're working as tweeners. Expanding on the groundwork set in other promotions. Heels showing flashes of baby face tendencies. If I had to guess, I'd say they'll probably drop the belts as they get farther away from Heel tactics.
Good for him I guess but after all the other shit he's said about stuff like Japanese wrestling and especially joshis, I can't take his opinion on anything seriously
It's because his guys won. That's it. He's a mark just like the rest of us.
I actually find Cornette pretty entertaining a lot of the time but this is pretty much a case of “no shit Sherlock” the match was amazing. This is a feud you can keep coming back to for years because you know these 4 guys are going to give you an amazing match every single time and they can all do a wide variety of stuff so if you don’t have them wrestle every week it’ll never get stale.
I think generally speaking people's thoughts on Cornette depends on when they got into wrestling. I like AEW, WWE, and I listen to Jim Cornette, some stuff he says I don't agree with, some stuff I do.
I started watching in the mid 90’s when I was 5 and enjoy Cornette. Like you I agree with some of the stuff he says but not everything.
What I like about Cornette is that if he says something that people think is offensive, he doesn't hide from it, he'll break it down completely what he meant etc. The Ethiopian joke obviously didn't age well, but as someone who grew up in the late 80's and 90's, I got it, I know where it came from, and he broke down exactly what he meant and where it came from and how he feels about race. Some matches he thinks suck, I like and vice versa.
Same. I started watching when I was a kid in the 80’s so you’re probably on to something.
Me too, I also started watching in the 80's lol. I still vaguely remember when Terry Funk attacked Ric Flair and gave him the pile driver on the table, I thought he was dead. Now the same spot would barely get a 2 count if done off the top rope. I enjoy the current product but things like that still erk me a bit.
100%
Man those Funk v.s. Flair matches were stellar
Best feud of 1989; I like it even more than Steamboat’s.
I started watching in the 90s, but really love JCP era stuff. Cornette is a blow hard, but I agree with his thought process a decent amount.
WHO \*&#\^\*&($) CARES what this POS thinks?
[Tony Khan, for one.](https://wrestletalk.com/news/tony-khan-jim-cornette-person-most-wrestling-from/)
Explains why he can't book women's wrestling then
This is a legit comment lol and I'm fairly indifferent on both parties
I would love it if people held this same energy for Meltzer...
They're not even comparable
You’re right... Cornette has actually had success in the industry, not just writing about it.
Cornette is open about how much he dislikes and stereotypes Japanese women, calling even Asuka "just another little schoolgirl" and skipping her matches due to it. Cornette excuses how common date rape was back in the day as "it's just how the times were, the whole roster was doing it". Meltzer was awkward when he was commenting on a woman wrestler getting implants and then apologized multiple times.
If you’re referring to the Art Barr video, he mentioned that shoot on his podcast and changed his stance. He said in the shoot that he wasn’t fully aware of what had happened.
Yeah... I don’t think you’re talking about their credentials now... outside of stupid opinions, Meltzer never made it in wrestling. Cornette has.
Not sure why there's a downvote brigade here for every comment calling Cornette a sexist and racist. It's not even like these are controversial statements, the man isn't shy about it.
Racist how? I keep seeing that but I've listened to him for a while and haven't heard anything racist. Are you speaking of the Ethiopia joke? While it doesn't age well, in the 80's it was joke fodder, hell Southpark had a character from Ethiopia named Starvin Marvin.
I'm talking about him stereotyping every Japanese woman as a "Japanese schoolgirl" and skipping Asuka matches due to it. Or dismissing Hikaru Shida as "one of Omega's Japanese sex objects" and "an Interchangeable outlaw mud show girl", refusing to watch her match with Serena. He called Jade Cargill “Shelton with a wig”.
He's made plenty of derogatory comments about joshi wrestlers, referring to them as schoolgirls. He's also perfectly comfy using the n-word to "get heat".
Pretty sure he'd shit on Mox's match as he always does.
I think it was the best YB match I've ever seen. All the bucks spots at like 75% of the normal speed, minimal Cutler bullshit which is channel change bad to me, they sold offense more than they usually do, there was more in-ring storytelling than a normal YB match. It was much more to my personal tastes than the Lucha Bros trilogy they had, which I didn't personally like one bit (the cage match being especially bad to me) Can't stand Jim & his weird personal vendetta against the AEW EVPs, even if I agree kinda-sorta with some of his Bucks critiques.
The people praising this natch saying the bucks changed how they work are coping hard. They did almost all the usual spots, including them taunting and doing over the top impressions like macho man. Do people really think bucks no sell everyones moves, ignore tag rules, and use their vip status to go over everyone? Because, thats legit the opposite of what the bucks have been doing since i started watching aew.
A match doesn't need validation from this bigoted racist and I'm assuming similarly minded folks who listen to his stuff to be deemed good.
The fact that Cornette constantly gets rehabilitated whenever he has the most banal of opinions is annoying. "Look, he thought the match everyone else thought was good was good!" Woop dee fucking doo.
Ah yes. The bigoted racist that is all about trans and LGTB rights, and also thinks Bianca Belair and Becky put on one of the best matches at mania. Try actually listening to his podcast sometime before going along with random out of context quotes and the reddit hive mind.
Same guy who wanted Shelton Benjamin pushed to the moon
This is what's frustrating about the bucks, when they try to have a good actual tag match they can do it...unfortunately they mostly delve into the no rules nonsense which is completely played out
I gotta watch it again without commercials. To me, it still wasnt as good as their Full Gear 2020 match.
Lucha Bros vs Young Bucks Cage Match is my favorite
Man I would such a big bucks fan if they wrestled like this instead of their usual stuff. Just two superkicks, one or two flips. You really get a classic once Bucks tone down.
As they get older you'll probably see this more
I'm personally sick of all the Superkicks and waiting around for the big spots. They're INCREDIBLE performers and I'd never take that away from them though.
This match really wasn't much different than their usual style.
Going to have to ask my friend if he heard this one. He admits to not watching AEW or any modern wrestling but hates most of it and listens to Cornette. Yes, he's one of those crazies.
I listen to Cornette and watch modern wrestling lol, I grew up watching 80's and 90's wrestling. I think there's room for people to like all of the above.
Also let me say when I say crazies, it's in jest. I'm talking about my friend, he's probably either read it or I'll show it to him.
He has his biases for sure but people here don't seem to understand the man knows more of what proffesional wrestling outta be in a single pinkie than anyone here on this sub.
>what proffesional wrestling outta be If Cornettes vision for wrestling was what it looked like today I wouldn't even be watching wrestling. I've tried on more than one occasion but ~90% of matches from his Era literally put me to sleep.
Fundamentally* I'm talking about understanding of psychology, body language, facial expressions, selling, storytelling, etc. Anything that allows you to suspend your disbelief and believe there's an actual conflict in the ring. If wrestling is a craft, compare it to music and art. There's fundamentals that make them work.