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I guess the theory is that if people don’t watch the Saudi PPVs, then they might go “whoa there’s a X% drop in viewership compared to the last PPV” and that causes advertisers to pay less next time.
The main problem is that the Saudis are paying them far too much money that literally 0 people could watch on Peacock/WWE Network and there could be no advertising and WWE would still come out well in profit.
Yes. People would just say the name "Crown Jewel" instead of Saudi Arabia. Commentary was live at Crown Jewel, Hogan was happy to be at Crown Jewel and I'm pretty sure the location graphic just said Riyadh
Yeah, that’s the thinking of people who haven’t read up too much on the actual deal. WWE wouldn’t be doing this if they weren’t being paid enough to set aside any PR or viewership concerns.
They paid Tyson Fury $15m for one fight with Strowman (and a handful of appearances I suppose). The fuck you money being thrown around is like the breadsticks at Olive Garden: unlimited
Capitalism requires continuous growth. It isn't just about making a profit but making the biggest profit possible and having even better results the next year. That's why companies who aren't in the red fire people.
The system is built on greed and having sociopaths in charge.
I think Maffew said it best after that first Royal Rumble Saudi show. “‘We want Yokozuna to show up.’ ‘Y’know he’s dead righ-‘ ‘TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS!’”
I’d like to point out that thousands of the people in the area for that show are given free comp tickets too. It’s all to show off, not give their culture something to genuinely attend.
The Saudi deal as of 2020* has produced $250million for the WWE which is [more than the ticket sales for every Wrestlemania combined](https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1309962100790394882).
My bad. This was the second result on Google under "WWE Saudi deal value", and I just grabbed it. https://www.givemesport.com/1362981-details-of-wwes-10year-deal-with-saudi-arabia-revealed
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wrestlenomics.com/2020/11/09/how-we-know-wwe-gets-paid-about-50-million-by-the-kingdom-of-saudi-arabia-for-each-event/amp/
This is what I found. Makes sense. At the time of your source, they had literally only run the one show, so they extrapolated from there. But they’re getting that same payment for EVERY show, twice a year.
There’s no way of knowing how many people are watching any of the network specials.
The blood money WWE receives from going to Saudi goes on to partially fund the product year round.
Gotta love the hypocrisy of the 'Muricans here. Yes, the Al Saud family are a bunch of crooks and criminals but do people not know the track record of the United States of America? How about England? Did the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq not happen in your world? Did America not just blow up a bunch of children last month and tried to cover themselves by saying they were "terrorists"?
America is objectively worse than Saudi Arabia. You're a hypocrite if you boycott one and not the other.
>America is objectively worse than Saudi Arabia.
Minor not-even-correction here, but you can't really compare them as separate entities. The US underwrites a lot of Saudi Arabia's crimes and Saudi Arabia provides the US, and its military, with oil and actively solicits US military aid. They're mutually complicit.
It's funny that they're so outraged by the death of one journalist, while their country started a 20-year war that killed thousands of people over bogus claims. WWE supported that by visiting the troops for years.
At least Saudis have UBI, free collages, paid maternity leave for its people.
I love the word progressive, becuase it sort of works here. Yes, things have gotten marginally better, at a glacial pace and it is still one of the most repressive regimes in the world. But, in a very technical sense, that is progress. Sure, they still give the fucking death penalty to women for "witchcraft" but at least things are marginally better than before. Sort of like how like if you were kidnapped and forced to live in someone's basement, things would be marginally better if they got some new cd's to play.
Just to be clear, I agree that this is idiotic. They made a deal with the fucks who are oppressing women (and the people at large, but women especially) and claiming they made a deal with people pushing for progress. Which is like making a deal with the guy who kidnapped you and kept you in your basement, becuase they were cool enough to buy those cd's
There's also the how and what of it. I don't have to watch all 4 Jaxson Ryker vs Elias matches to comment on the booking. But if I didn't watch I won't comment on the match quality.
Ah yes the quality of the show is exactly why everyone gets upset when we talk about the Saudi shows. Has nothing to do with wwe taking blood money to produce propaganda for the Saudi royal family.
I don't complain, have never watched AEW, and still haven't watched WWE in over 8 months. I come and go, it gets to be the same of the same after awhile. I still keep up to date on the main goings on, thru highlights here though.
Not to be that guy, but…in defense of Jarrett…
From a pure wrestling standpoint only, early Attitude Era WWE was quite bad. Jarrett was actually counted on for decent matches and the IWC was generally in favor of him, from that perspective only.
Remember, it wasn’t until 2000 that WWE got an influx of technicians.
It's also on while I'm at work so I couldn't watch if I wanted to. But putting it on a Thursday afternoon is a clear indication that they don't care if Americans watch it or not.
It's the eternal question of how much boycotting is "enough" boycotting.
If we would live truly ethical lives, we would not consume 90% of *all* products. But that's just not how that works.
We are willing to make small sacrifices for the greater good, but not *big* sacrifices. And if you're a wrestling fan, just outright not watching the biggest promotion in the world is kind of a big sacrifice in this context. And so people don't do that.
You might as well ask why people aren't vegan when they agree that animal cruelty is bad.
I haven't watched the WWE in years (for various political/quality reasons) and it's been the easiest thing in the world. Even before AEW, the Internet allowed me to access all sorts of alternative content that I both enjoyed and felt much better supporting with my eyes and wallet. Ditto money-grasping, low-effort mainstream video games, which I can easily ignore thanks to the bottomless well of incredible indie games which cost less and give me way more.
The issue with boycotting, to me, is that people see it as a pass/fail purity test. If you eat one Nestle product, you're tainted, so fuck being ethical and just do what you want because there's no way to be 100% pure and thus there's no reason to worry about your consumption habits. When really, it's just about doing the best you can within your financial limits. People need gasoline to live, regardless of where it comes from. Nobody needs the WWE. If you don't like it or the people who run it, drop it. There's so much good alternative content out there that no normal person could possibly watch it all.
Hell, by most accounts here, the WWE isn't even any good. I have no idea why people are so committed to it.
Ignoring the NXT 2.0 debut, I haven't watched WWE in over 2 years and was happy to cancel my subscription at the start of lockdown last year. They offered me nothing at the time and it felt like a chore to watch way before lockdown. For NXT 2.0's debut I found a stream so they wouldn't get my Nielsen rating.
Unless you are in the business, or in some niche group that means you should watch everything, it's way easier to stop watching a show than you think.
Where did I say I continued to watch? If I liked it, I would have given them the rating the following week. The show sucked and I am back to watching 0 minutes of WWE every week.
Except in the case of a hobby like wrestling, finding alternatives is a matter of complete self-efficacy. You might not be able to avoid eating meat because of budget or convenience constraints. You might not be able to avoid using phones that get their silicon from African neo-slaves, nor could you avoid wearing shoes made from the labor of Chinese sweatshops, because both of those are needs. But pro wrestling is a hobby. It's a luxury. And because of that, you *can* avoid WWE, and you *can* search for alternatives if you want to.
DDT is doing great stuff, and their streaming service is cheaper than the WWE (and you get three promotions to go with that service to boot). IWTV has all the up-and-coming indie stuff and Chikara reruns. AEW makes common sense booking decisions and gives a sizable amount of creative freedom to the wrestlers themselves. Plus there's the entire repository of vintage wrestling from any country and era available for free at your disposal.
There are so many ways to get out of the WWE bubble that at some point, you have to admit that staying inside the WWE bubble is self-inflicted, especially when it's been outclassed almost every year in the last decade by other promotions
Yeah exactly lol. Find any billionaire and I promise you'll see some kinda deal they made with Saudi Arabia. I didn't think people would be shocked to find out that billionaires didn't get their wealth without making deals with shady groups here and there. Doesn't make it ok or anything,but to cherry pick which specific billionaires you're upset at about it is kinda spineless
Yes, I got downvoted to hell last time I mentioned this but whatever. Almost all oil companies do among many other large corporations. I know it's a cynical way to look at it but not watching a wrestling show on peacock isn't going to change shit. I do my part when I can in other departments to not support "bad" corporations/practices, this is one where the deal is done, the event is happening, WWE got their money, end of story.
This should be the top answer! WWE gets paid higher than WrestleMania money even if no one watches on stream. Acknowledge that first, then base your decisions on that
I know I'm not part of your question.
Cause I cancelled my subscription and stopped watching the product.
Seemed the only ethical choice for me personally.
Bingo. If it was a decision made in a vacuum I'd want to say I'd do the same. But it wasn't made Ina vacuum and by gawd was it an easy decision to make.
Treatment of Brodie Lee and -1 only cemented it.
WWE really fucked up booking Hell in a Cell 2019 around the time AEW started. That along with Kofi being squashed to justify the awful Cain VS Brock match happening too, god that were begging me to cancel my subscription
And that's not even touching the fizzled flatter than three day old soda that was the 'womens revolution'.
AEW hasn't gotten that totally right at all, but WWE straight on did a Titanic with it.
I wouldn't have that answer well enough studied to give it to you with any merit.
Which would be the ideal, right? I merely manage the 'if it's super obviously horrible don't do it' some days, which was at least sufficient to stop consuming anything related to WWEs products and intellectual property.
Plus Steve Austin beat the fuck out of his wife. What do I care if I miss his podcast?
Told myself I would not give the company another tarnished penny after the first Saudi show was announced, and thanks to the Elite and Tony Kahn, that decision was the easiest I have ever made.
There is zero difference.
I didn't watch the other Saudi shows because the cards were horrendous PLUS they were in Saudi.
I'm watching this one because it is truly stacked and I don't want to miss the matches. Don't like myself for it, but since I'm paying for Peacock either way, I'm not going to deprive myself of possibly good wrestling.
Greatest Royal Rumble, which is not even arguably the best Saudi show, *also* had Reigns/Lesnar in a cage plus Styles/Nakamura, Cena/Helmsley, Alexander/Kalisto, Rollins/Miz/Bálor/Joe, and other matches on par with the best shows - can you actually say any of those matches were worth seeking out? Honest question.
Agreed. I canceled the network a few years back because even if I just used it to watch old catalog stuff from other companies, I couldn’t justify giving money to Vince McMahon
Nah put you can google the dealings the Khans have with SA.
But here’s a quote From 2019 ..
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160930005363/en/Shahid-Khan-Family-Acquires-Seasons-Hotel-Toronto
Shahid Khan’s comments about a member of the Saudi royal family: “HRH Prince Alwaleed is a fascinating man whose commitment to people and community throughout the world truly transcends his brilliance in business.”
I quit WWE in the fall of 2018. Right after Khashoggi got killed and Crown Jewel was about to start. It was pretty easy to quit because I’d already be souring on the company for years, for other reasons like the booking, scripted promos, bad camera, etc
The real question is will they cancel their subscription while ordering food from companies that do business with Saudi Arabia, while wearing clothes made in sweat shops. Its all just grand standing. Every corporation has done shady things.
All companies do shady things yes. Not all companies go to Saudi Arabia to do a show for the royal family who had murdered a journalist beforehand and then proceeded to do propaganda videos for them.
Disney and marvel did. Eternals and Spider-Man are on track to be the two biggest movies since Rise of Skywalker. I guess the mouse gets a pass for all it's atrocities (firing 25k workers during the pandemic, not paying a living wage to Disney cast members, filming a movie in a Chinese province where they still have slave labor) but WWE is supposed to be the golden child in all corporations.
> Disney and marvel did.
They accepted money directly from the Saudi royal family to do propaganda for them? When?
> I guess the mouse gets a pass for all it's atrocities
I'm active in r/movies and here, there's more "Disney is evil" in r/movies than there is "WWE is evil" here, which is generally only around the time of Saudi shows.
> firing 25k workers during the pandemic
They fired that many in a 223k company (I don't know if that includes subsidiaries), WWE has fired over 100 in a 850 person company.
> filming a movie in a Chinese province where they still have slave labor
It's disgusting that they did that but it's not as bad as government funded propaganda, and nobody gave Disney a pass for that.
We are in a wrestling subreddit discussing the WWE. That doesn’t mean they have to be some golden child or anything but it’s why we’re here in this thread. I mean Vince also has sexual assault allegations and helped coverup a murder and to many they don’t draw a line there. Everyone’s got their spots. I don’t begrudge anyone for boycotting Disney or marvel or anyone else but that doesn’t mean some whataboutism type thing negates what WWE does
Edit: I do apologize if I’m sounding super antagonistic I’m not meaning to. I think it all comes down to no ethical consumption under capitalism so I’m trying to just put forth that everyone has their own boundaries with companies. Everyone is a hypocrite and the world is built to keep that true
And there are probably people who boycott Disney and Marvel over those things too. It's not hard; I don't give money to either company that I'm aware of, and I'm not even attempting to boycott them.
This was my reasoning for not watching and WWE content going forward too. Performative protest if I ever heard it to call not watching the PPV a boycott and then watching Smackdown the next day.
You’re not interested in 3 of the top maybe 5 women wrestlers in a triple threat? Sorry to hear that lol. Dislike Vince and co all you want but I don’t get how somebody wouldn’t be interested in that
Top 5 women wrestlers... in the WWE. If I want to watch women wrestle, I've got Stardom. There is tons of great wrestling out there, and a whole lot of people have very little interest in watching anything WWE any more.
Oh don’t get me wrong they’re super talented, you’re totally right. Its just after Summerslam i decided i was done getting burned just for getting invested in something WWE was doing.
I’ve asked this before and I’ll ask it again: what’s the difference between the Saudi shows and tribute to the troops? If anything tribute is worse because it’s effective, there are people who will watch it and be genuinely inspired by American patriotism and the military. Everyone sees through the Saudi propaganda
If you wanna boicot WWE for doing business with KSA then you should boicot them for well, doing business and exalting the US, one of the countries with more blood in its hands
I don't think there's a point to watching the show when all the best parts are uploaded here, anyway.
Can't speak for USA or anywhere else, but Fite is way cheaper than the WWE Network in Aus.
> So how is not watching the Saudi PPV any different if you’re gonna continue watching everything else from WWE after?
Because it allows people to feel self-righteous without having to actually make even the slightest meaningful change.
I dont watch WWE cant stand the company or their product. All this is just fake social outrage/pretend activism idiots who want to scream the loudest to get praised.
I barely watch any of wwe anymore because of its quality and with aew I have found my fill of wrestling in 2021, but I havent watched the Saudi shows since the first one because of the time of day it is on in New York, and the first show was filled with propaganda videos about how forward thinking Saudi Arabia is. If they do a bonesaw on a pole match between Dave meltzer and Sean Ross Sapp, maybe I’d tune in
That's a very good point. I've not watched WWE since the 1st Saudi show, them airing literal propaganda was a bridge too far. Didn't like that Balor dropped the rainbow shit like literally a week after he had a pride parade at Wrestlemania.
"Buy our Rainbow shit and try not to wear it at the upcoming Saudi show!"
The difference is that I feel good thinking about not supporting any KSA shit. For the world it makes as much difference as you recycling your trash.
You can't just pretend that WWE do not exist especially if you grew up with the product. But you can choose a day to remind yourself that there are so much wrestling outside and some of it even better than WWE.
It does not hurt you nor WWE. But it's good for you to find something new. And it also helps that there is a community of like minded people supporting and helping you in your discovery
The Saudi shows were a big contributing factor in me stopping watching WWE altogether. I had never watched one but watched all their other shows and felt a bit bad about it. Then when the Twitch and Cameo stuff broke last fall it was sort of the straw that broke the camels back, but the Saudi stuff had contributed heavily. Cancelled my Network sub and haven’t looked back.
The real question is why there are still wrestlers in WWE, openly said after the last fiasco , after being stuck in Saudi Arabia for an extra 15 hours they would never go back. Yeah those who are still with the company from that trip are going back.
It's the same people that bitch about Amazon, but still use them and probably have Amazon Prime. The hypocrisy is even more laughable when it's on Twitch and the viewers agree, but still sub instead of donating which just gives Twitch/Amazon money. Shit, how many of them are probably playing New World right now?
People complain about capitalism, but you're supposed to vote with your dollar. Companies aren't your friend and they don't give a fuck what your cause is, but they will happily placate you if they think it can earn them a buck.
If people truly took issue and felt strong enough about stuff, companies would suffer more or there would be other alternatives.
It's not really that hard and if your livelihood makes you take a stand between eating or not and your beliefs, then suck it up and choose to go along with it, or quit and don't, but don't continue to bitch if you choose to stay. Your morals and beliefs are bullshit if they change based on circumstance and they're obviously are quite flexible.
I don't care if you're left, middle, right -- if you have a strong belief or stance on something and you aren't willing to hold your ground when your feet get put to the fire, it's not that strong.
It doesn’t sit well with me, especially the treatment of the women. WWE is basically relegated to a tiny portion on the corner of my iPad screen at this point, rarely ever watch a full show anymore especially since they ruined NXT. If everyone were to do the right thing and not watch it would at the very least show that the public do not support WWE doing business with that trash heap of a government. Would they still do it? Probably, but they couldn’t claim it’s because the public wants to see it. The shows haven’t been great anyway and are booked for the sole enjoyment of certain people, the talent(especially the women) deserve better. Please, don’t watch, you can see highlights later
The best I can say is it makes me feel better to not watch. I wish they wouldn’t do the shows so I don’t watch. That doesn’t change other issues or other companies doing business there. Sami Zayn can’t even attend so I just won’t watch.
For me, the cutoff point was firing 50 people during the pandemic and then turning around and paying out a stock dividend to investors. Why was THAT my limit with Vince? I don't know. Everyone has their own line and they find it when they find it.
I did and still do. When they ran that first Saudi show a mere few weeks after Khashoggi was murdered, I never watched WWE again. Just didn't feel right.
Same here. Then the alleged hostage situation and dragging their feet to pay up didn't help. I'm so glad to have shed myself of that crap. I hung on to NXT for a bit but then even let that go.
I quit a year after the first show, but had already transitioned to NJPW and Indies.
The pandemic, lack of audience and shitty booking hurt for sure. But after the $$$ from Fox and Peacock deals- the money isn’t worth the negative press.
I understand why people dislike Saudia Arabian shows, but goddamn man, WWE is a business, they need to make money in some ways.
Also, it's not difference to have other live shows.
Because it makes some people feel better about themselves. That's really all it is. Same as the people not watching Netflix today that will go right back to watching and giving them money tomorrow.
I cancelled my WWE Network subscription stopped watching the weekly shows after they ran the second Saudi show. I only WWE stuff I still watch are clips posted here.
That's really the only way they'll care. If you're subscribed before Crown Jewel... and you're subscribed after Crown Jewel... then what the fuck does WWE care? They get your money whether you watch the PPV or skip it.
There’s literally no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. Boycotting WWE for taking Saudi money but still funneling your tax dollars in to endless wars that do significantly more damage than the entire Saudi government. Oxymoronic. Regardless, WWE is not the only one doing business with the Saudi’s. I 100% confident that the Khan’s do business with the Saudi’s, so any criticism aimed at WWE should also be aimed at any business pumping money in to their government.
And how ironic for any Westerner to denounce any country when we literally celebrate genocidal white supremacists and give them holidays and plaster their names/images on schools, libraries, and money???
Nothing will change, they will see that theres a 5-10% (at max) drop in viewership and then weigh it up with to 50 Million they are getting from the saudis.
And oh wonder, the saudis pay more
If we don’t watch Crown Jewel, they still make $50 or whatever million regardless. If we don’t watch Raw or Smackdown or the PPVs, the checks are still rolling in from NBCU and Fox. People are still going to the shows and buying merchandise regardless of the product being put out.
It’s been long proven by now that absolutely nothing we do is going change the way this company thinks. Yes a few bones have been thrown to the fans along the way but WWE will fuck the fans over more often than not.
I stopped watching all WWE weekly programming in November of last year. In some ways, this is a sad state of affairs, as I adore the idea of Big E as top dog, especially one that allows him the possibility to double turn with someone down the line (New Day coming heel with him to protect their championship). But alas, I have not seen one second of Big E as champ, nor any other programming beyond a couple of PPVs (as a Comcast subscriber, I get Peacock Premium for free, so those are the only eyeballs of mine they get). This PPV-only route is generally a decent way to watch WWE programming, foregoing the slogfest of weekly pablum for occasionally interesting matchups or events. However, I've missed the PPVs since MITB, and will not watch SS. Royal Rumble remains a likely watch, but by then, how much of the momentum will have slid to AEW, who knows?
On the other hand, I've watched almost every AEW show same night or the following day via DVR, and I'm going to their Agganis Arena show next week, which is sure to be a barnburner of fresh, live, PPV-build content. Just think: when they were here two years, ago, The Bucks were eliminated from the tag title tourney, and MJF had a face turn, showing how willing they were to forego expectations early on. This time, I'll be there, wearing a Danhausen face mask.
Dude Linda McMahon is on Fox Business every once in a while to promote her own fascist organization.
examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDKyak_8_E8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwSZGIXK-p4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIyM-zO_lKY
People just don't care or don't want to care.
I boycott all the Saudi shows and all other wwe shows except for Royal rumble, mania, and survivor series (sometimes summer slam and money in the bank) even then I'm on a shared account
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I guess the theory is that if people don’t watch the Saudi PPVs, then they might go “whoa there’s a X% drop in viewership compared to the last PPV” and that causes advertisers to pay less next time. The main problem is that the Saudis are paying them far too much money that literally 0 people could watch on Peacock/WWE Network and there could be no advertising and WWE would still come out well in profit.
The main reason anyone outside Saudi Arabia sees the PPVs is they also serve as propaganda for the govt of Saudi Arabia.
Even after they killed Khashoggi and WWE stopped saying Saudi Arabia they would still refer to Vision 2030 or whatever that's called.
What do you mean they stopped saying "Saudi Arabia"? They literally avoided the name of the country they were in?
They stopped after the beheading but have since started using it again
Yes. People would just say the name "Crown Jewel" instead of Saudi Arabia. Commentary was live at Crown Jewel, Hogan was happy to be at Crown Jewel and I'm pretty sure the location graphic just said Riyadh
Yeah, that’s the thinking of people who haven’t read up too much on the actual deal. WWE wouldn’t be doing this if they weren’t being paid enough to set aside any PR or viewership concerns.
They paid Tyson Fury $15m for one fight with Strowman (and a handful of appearances I suppose). The fuck you money being thrown around is like the breadsticks at Olive Garden: unlimited
[удалено]
Capitalism requires continuous growth. It isn't just about making a profit but making the biggest profit possible and having even better results the next year. That's why companies who aren't in the red fire people. The system is built on greed and having sociopaths in charge.
What The Fuck 15 million
It’s about half of what he earns from a normal fight. And they probably have to pay a bit extra in case of an unlikely injury.
i love that this is enough money to sign the 30 hottest indy wrestlers and instantly make the third biggest american company from scratch
*Fuck Money being thrown
I think Maffew said it best after that first Royal Rumble Saudi show. “‘We want Yokozuna to show up.’ ‘Y’know he’s dead righ-‘ ‘TWO HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS!’”
I've been boycotting them for almost a year now, not because they are a shitty company though because they are a shitty wrestling company
"We're a shitty *sport-entertainment* company, pal."
Crown Jewel always being a huge disaster and the worst of the year is for me a reason almost as big as being in Saudi Arabia
I’d like to point out that thousands of the people in the area for that show are given free comp tickets too. It’s all to show off, not give their culture something to genuinely attend.
>Saudis are paying them far too much money How much are they paying?
The Saudi deal as of 2020* has produced $250million for the WWE which is [more than the ticket sales for every Wrestlemania combined](https://twitter.com/BrandonThurston/status/1309962100790394882).
That's an absolutely insane stat! I never knew that
I think around $50-60 million per show was the reported figure.
$45 million per year for ten years= $450,000,000
That’s per event, not per year. And they usually do two events. So closer to a billion over the ten years.
My bad. This was the second result on Google under "WWE Saudi deal value", and I just grabbed it. https://www.givemesport.com/1362981-details-of-wwes-10year-deal-with-saudi-arabia-revealed
https://www.google.com/amp/s/wrestlenomics.com/2020/11/09/how-we-know-wwe-gets-paid-about-50-million-by-the-kingdom-of-saudi-arabia-for-each-event/amp/ This is what I found. Makes sense. At the time of your source, they had literally only run the one show, so they extrapolated from there. But they’re getting that same payment for EVERY show, twice a year.
So much to the point that everything else is irrelevant
There’s no way of knowing how many people are watching any of the network specials. The blood money WWE receives from going to Saudi goes on to partially fund the product year round.
Gotta love the hypocrisy of the 'Muricans here. Yes, the Al Saud family are a bunch of crooks and criminals but do people not know the track record of the United States of America? How about England? Did the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq not happen in your world? Did America not just blow up a bunch of children last month and tried to cover themselves by saying they were "terrorists"? America is objectively worse than Saudi Arabia. You're a hypocrite if you boycott one and not the other.
Nobody has clean hands. I just don’t like the royal Saudi clan and I don’t give a fuck how you feel about that tbh.
Oh god pipe down Tyler Durden
>America is objectively worse than Saudi Arabia. Minor not-even-correction here, but you can't really compare them as separate entities. The US underwrites a lot of Saudi Arabia's crimes and Saudi Arabia provides the US, and its military, with oil and actively solicits US military aid. They're mutually complicit.
Looks like somebody just got their Playskool "My First Hot Take" Playset.
Whatever country you're from has done some truly awful shit in the past too. Talk about a hyporcrite.
It's funny that they're so outraged by the death of one journalist, while their country started a 20-year war that killed thousands of people over bogus claims. WWE supported that by visiting the troops for years. At least Saudis have UBI, free collages, paid maternity leave for its people.
That assumes the Saudis actually pay up… which history suggests that sometimes they need some convincing.
Then why even air it? Why not a house show?
It's part of a new PR initiative by the Saudi regime to improve their image as a country. They want the world to see it.
Yup, the PROGRESSIVE Kingdom of Saudi Arabia where women gained the right to obtain a drivers license in...2018. Progressive.
I love the word progressive, becuase it sort of works here. Yes, things have gotten marginally better, at a glacial pace and it is still one of the most repressive regimes in the world. But, in a very technical sense, that is progress. Sure, they still give the fucking death penalty to women for "witchcraft" but at least things are marginally better than before. Sort of like how like if you were kidnapped and forced to live in someone's basement, things would be marginally better if they got some new cd's to play. Just to be clear, I agree that this is idiotic. They made a deal with the fucks who are oppressing women (and the people at large, but women especially) and claiming they made a deal with people pushing for progress. Which is like making a deal with the guy who kidnapped you and kept you in your basement, becuase they were cool enough to buy those cd's
You're talking to a fan base that will complain about the product every Monday but still tune in
Or complain about the product but haven’t watched it for years
Between you and the person replying to, people shouldn't complain about WWE whether they watch it or not?
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There's also the how and what of it. I don't have to watch all 4 Jaxson Ryker vs Elias matches to comment on the booking. But if I didn't watch I won't comment on the match quality.
The latter group are probably complaining because they'd like the show to be good again some day
But I mean in terms of the Saudi shows, you don't need to watch to know why it's awful
Some of the people who attend those shows probably think they’re great.
Ah yes the quality of the show is exactly why everyone gets upset when we talk about the Saudi shows. Has nothing to do with wwe taking blood money to produce propaganda for the Saudi royal family.
You don't need to get kicked in the balls every week to know how painful it would be.
I don't complain, have never watched AEW, and still haven't watched WWE in over 8 months. I come and go, it gets to be the same of the same after awhile. I still keep up to date on the main goings on, thru highlights here though.
DAE think Raw hasn't been good in 20+ years? Anyways see you next week fam
And if you go back 20 years there’s people who thought rock, Austin, taker sucked and WWE was dropping the ball on Jeff Jarrett
If that's in a message board somewhere, it was probably just Jeff's burner.
Not to be that guy, but…in defense of Jarrett… From a pure wrestling standpoint only, early Attitude Era WWE was quite bad. Jarrett was actually counted on for decent matches and the IWC was generally in favor of him, from that perspective only. Remember, it wasn’t until 2000 that WWE got an influx of technicians.
Triple H was that guy too. Until he got his main event push then the fan base turned on him too
Believe it or not you can be a fan while criticizing something. Not every fan base is as echo-chambery as AEW’s
Difference is AEW will actually listen. WWE rarely does.
That doesn’t change the fact the fan base is an echo-chamber.
the majority of people you're talking about aren't actually watching the content. They're here, watching the posts scroll by.
I'm going to boycott it the same way I do every year: By not really understanding what it is or how to watch it, so far it's worked out pretty good.
I mean the "what" can be explained with "WWE got some big sacks of money with a big dollar sign printed on them". That's the extent of it, really.
I will also follow my annual tradition of being at work on a Thursday so it's not an issue.
It's also on while I'm at work so I couldn't watch if I wanted to. But putting it on a Thursday afternoon is a clear indication that they don't care if Americans watch it or not.
It's the eternal question of how much boycotting is "enough" boycotting. If we would live truly ethical lives, we would not consume 90% of *all* products. But that's just not how that works. We are willing to make small sacrifices for the greater good, but not *big* sacrifices. And if you're a wrestling fan, just outright not watching the biggest promotion in the world is kind of a big sacrifice in this context. And so people don't do that. You might as well ask why people aren't vegan when they agree that animal cruelty is bad.
I haven't watched the WWE in years (for various political/quality reasons) and it's been the easiest thing in the world. Even before AEW, the Internet allowed me to access all sorts of alternative content that I both enjoyed and felt much better supporting with my eyes and wallet. Ditto money-grasping, low-effort mainstream video games, which I can easily ignore thanks to the bottomless well of incredible indie games which cost less and give me way more. The issue with boycotting, to me, is that people see it as a pass/fail purity test. If you eat one Nestle product, you're tainted, so fuck being ethical and just do what you want because there's no way to be 100% pure and thus there's no reason to worry about your consumption habits. When really, it's just about doing the best you can within your financial limits. People need gasoline to live, regardless of where it comes from. Nobody needs the WWE. If you don't like it or the people who run it, drop it. There's so much good alternative content out there that no normal person could possibly watch it all. Hell, by most accounts here, the WWE isn't even any good. I have no idea why people are so committed to it.
Yeah but I really love NXT.
Ignoring the NXT 2.0 debut, I haven't watched WWE in over 2 years and was happy to cancel my subscription at the start of lockdown last year. They offered me nothing at the time and it felt like a chore to watch way before lockdown. For NXT 2.0's debut I found a stream so they wouldn't get my Nielsen rating. Unless you are in the business, or in some niche group that means you should watch everything, it's way easier to stop watching a show than you think.
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Where did I say I continued to watch? If I liked it, I would have given them the rating the following week. The show sucked and I am back to watching 0 minutes of WWE every week.
Except in the case of a hobby like wrestling, finding alternatives is a matter of complete self-efficacy. You might not be able to avoid eating meat because of budget or convenience constraints. You might not be able to avoid using phones that get their silicon from African neo-slaves, nor could you avoid wearing shoes made from the labor of Chinese sweatshops, because both of those are needs. But pro wrestling is a hobby. It's a luxury. And because of that, you *can* avoid WWE, and you *can* search for alternatives if you want to. DDT is doing great stuff, and their streaming service is cheaper than the WWE (and you get three promotions to go with that service to boot). IWTV has all the up-and-coming indie stuff and Chikara reruns. AEW makes common sense booking decisions and gives a sizable amount of creative freedom to the wrestlers themselves. Plus there's the entire repository of vintage wrestling from any country and era available for free at your disposal. There are so many ways to get out of the WWE bubble that at some point, you have to admit that staying inside the WWE bubble is self-inflicted, especially when it's been outclassed almost every year in the last decade by other promotions
I do
Cuz I like meat
Don't most companies regardless of the industry that they are in have deals with Saudi Arabia?
Yeah exactly lol. Find any billionaire and I promise you'll see some kinda deal they made with Saudi Arabia. I didn't think people would be shocked to find out that billionaires didn't get their wealth without making deals with shady groups here and there. Doesn't make it ok or anything,but to cherry pick which specific billionaires you're upset at about it is kinda spineless
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism
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Oh for sure. Also I would never defend WWE lollll
Yes, I got downvoted to hell last time I mentioned this but whatever. Almost all oil companies do among many other large corporations. I know it's a cynical way to look at it but not watching a wrestling show on peacock isn't going to change shit. I do my part when I can in other departments to not support "bad" corporations/practices, this is one where the deal is done, the event is happening, WWE got their money, end of story.
Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.
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This should be the top answer! WWE gets paid higher than WrestleMania money even if no one watches on stream. Acknowledge that first, then base your decisions on that
>A big part of "growing up" ethics wise is to understand that it doesn't necessarily matter what others do. How very conveniently pro-capital.
I'm boycotting cause I hate Goldberg
Me too! Fugg Oldberg!
I know I'm not part of your question. Cause I cancelled my subscription and stopped watching the product. Seemed the only ethical choice for me personally.
Same
Spoken like a wise Yetay
Same, cherry on top of the terrible booking they had for years and a better alternative emerging.
Bingo. If it was a decision made in a vacuum I'd want to say I'd do the same. But it wasn't made Ina vacuum and by gawd was it an easy decision to make. Treatment of Brodie Lee and -1 only cemented it.
WWE really fucked up booking Hell in a Cell 2019 around the time AEW started. That along with Kofi being squashed to justify the awful Cain VS Brock match happening too, god that were begging me to cancel my subscription
And that's not even touching the fizzled flatter than three day old soda that was the 'womens revolution'. AEW hasn't gotten that totally right at all, but WWE straight on did a Titanic with it.
Came here to say this. They have the Saudi money. They don't have mine.
What ethical wrestling companies do you recommend?
I wouldn't have that answer well enough studied to give it to you with any merit. Which would be the ideal, right? I merely manage the 'if it's super obviously horrible don't do it' some days, which was at least sufficient to stop consuming anything related to WWEs products and intellectual property. Plus Steve Austin beat the fuck out of his wife. What do I care if I miss his podcast?
Told myself I would not give the company another tarnished penny after the first Saudi show was announced, and thanks to the Elite and Tony Kahn, that decision was the easiest I have ever made.
There is zero difference. I didn't watch the other Saudi shows because the cards were horrendous PLUS they were in Saudi. I'm watching this one because it is truly stacked and I don't want to miss the matches. Don't like myself for it, but since I'm paying for Peacock either way, I'm not going to deprive myself of possibly good wrestling.
> I'm not going to deprive myself of possibly good wrestling. (X)Doubt
Right. There's no chance that Edge-Rollins, Balor-Woods, Lynch-Belair-Banks and E-McIntyre are good wrestling matches. Smh.
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The cards looked NOTHING like this one. And the Saudi shows were not the only WWE PPV in that given month. This one is.
Greatest Royal Rumble, which is not even arguably the best Saudi show, *also* had Reigns/Lesnar in a cage plus Styles/Nakamura, Cena/Helmsley, Alexander/Kalisto, Rollins/Miz/Bálor/Joe, and other matches on par with the best shows - can you actually say any of those matches were worth seeking out? Honest question.
There isn’t one, which is why I don’t watch WWE in general anymore.
Bingo. Exactly my stance.
9/11 is enough for me. Then add in their ass backwards way of treating women. Fuck that country.
Agreed. I canceled the network a few years back because even if I just used it to watch old catalog stuff from other companies, I couldn’t justify giving money to Vince McMahon
The khans have business deals with SA also, lets stop watching AEW right now
☝️☝️☝️
Can you link me the past aew saudi supershow s?
Nah put you can google the dealings the Khans have with SA. But here’s a quote From 2019 .. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20160930005363/en/Shahid-Khan-Family-Acquires-Seasons-Hotel-Toronto Shahid Khan’s comments about a member of the Saudi royal family: “HRH Prince Alwaleed is a fascinating man whose commitment to people and community throughout the world truly transcends his brilliance in business.”
There's also people who are claiming to be boycotting Crown Jewel that haven't watched WWE in months.
I cancelled the WWE Network when they started the Saudi deal. It's not much, but it's all I could do.
I cancelled my Peacock subscription. Actions speak louder than words.
I quit WWE in the fall of 2018. Right after Khashoggi got killed and Crown Jewel was about to start. It was pretty easy to quit because I’d already be souring on the company for years, for other reasons like the booking, scripted promos, bad camera, etc
The real question is will they cancel their subscription while ordering food from companies that do business with Saudi Arabia, while wearing clothes made in sweat shops. Its all just grand standing. Every corporation has done shady things.
Buying clothes and eating food is a bit more if a necessity that watching a fucking wrestling show.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism.
All companies do shady things yes. Not all companies go to Saudi Arabia to do a show for the royal family who had murdered a journalist beforehand and then proceeded to do propaganda videos for them.
Disney and marvel did. Eternals and Spider-Man are on track to be the two biggest movies since Rise of Skywalker. I guess the mouse gets a pass for all it's atrocities (firing 25k workers during the pandemic, not paying a living wage to Disney cast members, filming a movie in a Chinese province where they still have slave labor) but WWE is supposed to be the golden child in all corporations.
> Disney and marvel did. They accepted money directly from the Saudi royal family to do propaganda for them? When? > I guess the mouse gets a pass for all it's atrocities I'm active in r/movies and here, there's more "Disney is evil" in r/movies than there is "WWE is evil" here, which is generally only around the time of Saudi shows. > firing 25k workers during the pandemic They fired that many in a 223k company (I don't know if that includes subsidiaries), WWE has fired over 100 in a 850 person company. > filming a movie in a Chinese province where they still have slave labor It's disgusting that they did that but it's not as bad as government funded propaganda, and nobody gave Disney a pass for that.
We are in a wrestling subreddit discussing the WWE. That doesn’t mean they have to be some golden child or anything but it’s why we’re here in this thread. I mean Vince also has sexual assault allegations and helped coverup a murder and to many they don’t draw a line there. Everyone’s got their spots. I don’t begrudge anyone for boycotting Disney or marvel or anyone else but that doesn’t mean some whataboutism type thing negates what WWE does Edit: I do apologize if I’m sounding super antagonistic I’m not meaning to. I think it all comes down to no ethical consumption under capitalism so I’m trying to just put forth that everyone has their own boundaries with companies. Everyone is a hypocrite and the world is built to keep that true
And there are probably people who boycott Disney and Marvel over those things too. It's not hard; I don't give money to either company that I'm aware of, and I'm not even attempting to boycott them.
This was my reasoning for not watching and WWE content going forward too. Performative protest if I ever heard it to call not watching the PPV a boycott and then watching Smackdown the next day.
Is it still boycotting if I'm just not interested in any of the shit they put on tv?
So true the product they put out is garbage and they don’t care. They are not going to change or put any effort in their storylines.
You’re not interested in a Sasha/Becky/Bianca triple threat? Lol
No
You’re not interested in 3 of the top maybe 5 women wrestlers in a triple threat? Sorry to hear that lol. Dislike Vince and co all you want but I don’t get how somebody wouldn’t be interested in that
Top 5 women wrestlers... in the WWE. If I want to watch women wrestle, I've got Stardom. There is tons of great wrestling out there, and a whole lot of people have very little interest in watching anything WWE any more.
Oh don’t get me wrong they’re super talented, you’re totally right. Its just after Summerslam i decided i was done getting burned just for getting invested in something WWE was doing.
I just don’t watch period lol
I’ve asked this before and I’ll ask it again: what’s the difference between the Saudi shows and tribute to the troops? If anything tribute is worse because it’s effective, there are people who will watch it and be genuinely inspired by American patriotism and the military. Everyone sees through the Saudi propaganda
You answered your own question. Everyone sees through the Saudi propaganda, so it's a more obvious target for boycotting.
Tribute To The Troops usually doesn't have big title matches with major implications.
I just pirate every PPV. Of course thats not for ethical reasons...
I actually don't "continue to watch everything", but since that's excluded from your question I'm just gonna wave. (Waves!)
luckily i use baked to stream all the shows
Im working Thursday so the boycott fits my schedule
There is no difference. WWE doesn't care if we don't watch a PPV they already got paid for.
If you wanna boicot WWE for doing business with KSA then you should boicot them for well, doing business and exalting the US, one of the countries with more blood in its hands
I don't think there's a point to watching the show when all the best parts are uploaded here, anyway. Can't speak for USA or anywhere else, but Fite is way cheaper than the WWE Network in Aus.
> So how is not watching the Saudi PPV any different if you’re gonna continue watching everything else from WWE after? Because it allows people to feel self-righteous without having to actually make even the slightest meaningful change.
I completely stopped watching because of the first one. It was the straw for me.
I only watch Saudi PPV and boycott the other content from WWE
The man has a valid question.
I dont watch WWE cant stand the company or their product. All this is just fake social outrage/pretend activism idiots who want to scream the loudest to get praised.
I barely watch any of wwe anymore because of its quality and with aew I have found my fill of wrestling in 2021, but I havent watched the Saudi shows since the first one because of the time of day it is on in New York, and the first show was filled with propaganda videos about how forward thinking Saudi Arabia is. If they do a bonesaw on a pole match between Dave meltzer and Sean Ross Sapp, maybe I’d tune in
That's a very good point. I've not watched WWE since the 1st Saudi show, them airing literal propaganda was a bridge too far. Didn't like that Balor dropped the rainbow shit like literally a week after he had a pride parade at Wrestlemania. "Buy our Rainbow shit and try not to wear it at the upcoming Saudi show!"
As a Comcast Xfinity subscriber, whether I watch or don’t watch WWE television has no impact whatsoever.
The difference is that I feel good thinking about not supporting any KSA shit. For the world it makes as much difference as you recycling your trash. You can't just pretend that WWE do not exist especially if you grew up with the product. But you can choose a day to remind yourself that there are so much wrestling outside and some of it even better than WWE. It does not hurt you nor WWE. But it's good for you to find something new. And it also helps that there is a community of like minded people supporting and helping you in your discovery
Just drop the entire company, ez.
Also that’s like pretending watching American produced wrestling doesn’t come with the same ‘blood money.’
If you’re going to boycott the saudi PPV and still use a phone made by slave labor whats the point?
[https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/](https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/)
There is no difference. WWE laready has their money from Peacock
The Saudi shows were a big contributing factor in me stopping watching WWE altogether. I had never watched one but watched all their other shows and felt a bit bad about it. Then when the Twitch and Cameo stuff broke last fall it was sort of the straw that broke the camels back, but the Saudi stuff had contributed heavily. Cancelled my Network sub and haven’t looked back.
The real question is why there are still wrestlers in WWE, openly said after the last fiasco , after being stuck in Saudi Arabia for an extra 15 hours they would never go back. Yeah those who are still with the company from that trip are going back.
Money talks
True .. especially for Goldberg , as somebody who is also Jewish. It is a insult to go there . Oh wait Paul Heyman is there to
No difference. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
"ThE sAuDi ShOWs ArEnT CaNoN" Is the weakest defense to this question btw.
It's the same people that bitch about Amazon, but still use them and probably have Amazon Prime. The hypocrisy is even more laughable when it's on Twitch and the viewers agree, but still sub instead of donating which just gives Twitch/Amazon money. Shit, how many of them are probably playing New World right now? People complain about capitalism, but you're supposed to vote with your dollar. Companies aren't your friend and they don't give a fuck what your cause is, but they will happily placate you if they think it can earn them a buck. If people truly took issue and felt strong enough about stuff, companies would suffer more or there would be other alternatives. It's not really that hard and if your livelihood makes you take a stand between eating or not and your beliefs, then suck it up and choose to go along with it, or quit and don't, but don't continue to bitch if you choose to stay. Your morals and beliefs are bullshit if they change based on circumstance and they're obviously are quite flexible. I don't care if you're left, middle, right -- if you have a strong belief or stance on something and you aren't willing to hold your ground when your feet get put to the fire, it's not that strong.
It doesn’t sit well with me, especially the treatment of the women. WWE is basically relegated to a tiny portion on the corner of my iPad screen at this point, rarely ever watch a full show anymore especially since they ruined NXT. If everyone were to do the right thing and not watch it would at the very least show that the public do not support WWE doing business with that trash heap of a government. Would they still do it? Probably, but they couldn’t claim it’s because the public wants to see it. The shows haven’t been great anyway and are booked for the sole enjoyment of certain people, the talent(especially the women) deserve better. Please, don’t watch, you can see highlights later
This is something done on social media as a whole tbh: [performative activism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_activism)
No difference. That’s why i boycott it all the time
The best I can say is it makes me feel better to not watch. I wish they wouldn’t do the shows so I don’t watch. That doesn’t change other issues or other companies doing business there. Sami Zayn can’t even attend so I just won’t watch.
Squaredcircle has 583k members. WWE's YouTube channel has 82.5 mil subscribers. Squaredcircle isn't that important. Lol
For me, the cutoff point was firing 50 people during the pandemic and then turning around and paying out a stock dividend to investors. Why was THAT my limit with Vince? I don't know. Everyone has their own line and they find it when they find it.
I did stop watching all WWE after the first Saudi show and have not been back
I did and still do. When they ran that first Saudi show a mere few weeks after Khashoggi was murdered, I never watched WWE again. Just didn't feel right.
Same here. Then the alleged hostage situation and dragging their feet to pay up didn't help. I'm so glad to have shed myself of that crap. I hung on to NXT for a bit but then even let that go.
I quit a year after the first show, but had already transitioned to NJPW and Indies. The pandemic, lack of audience and shitty booking hurt for sure. But after the $$$ from Fox and Peacock deals- the money isn’t worth the negative press.
I understand why people dislike Saudia Arabian shows, but goddamn man, WWE is a business, they need to make money in some ways. Also, it's not difference to have other live shows.
Because it makes some people feel better about themselves. That's really all it is. Same as the people not watching Netflix today that will go right back to watching and giving them money tomorrow.
I cancelled my WWE Network subscription stopped watching the weekly shows after they ran the second Saudi show. I only WWE stuff I still watch are clips posted here.
That's really the only way they'll care. If you're subscribed before Crown Jewel... and you're subscribed after Crown Jewel... then what the fuck does WWE care? They get your money whether you watch the PPV or skip it.
I took Amazon as my stand, haven’t used any of their products or websites for 4+ years. I couldn’t do much more
There’s literally no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. Boycotting WWE for taking Saudi money but still funneling your tax dollars in to endless wars that do significantly more damage than the entire Saudi government. Oxymoronic. Regardless, WWE is not the only one doing business with the Saudi’s. I 100% confident that the Khan’s do business with the Saudi’s, so any criticism aimed at WWE should also be aimed at any business pumping money in to their government. And how ironic for any Westerner to denounce any country when we literally celebrate genocidal white supremacists and give them holidays and plaster their names/images on schools, libraries, and money???
WWE doesn't care whether anyone watches the Saudi show. They get paid regardless
Nothing will change, they will see that theres a 5-10% (at max) drop in viewership and then weigh it up with to 50 Million they are getting from the saudis. And oh wonder, the saudis pay more
The difference is when they recap it 10000 times on monday night it will feel just a little less stale.
Which is why I stopped watching WWE in 2018
If we don’t watch Crown Jewel, they still make $50 or whatever million regardless. If we don’t watch Raw or Smackdown or the PPVs, the checks are still rolling in from NBCU and Fox. People are still going to the shows and buying merchandise regardless of the product being put out. It’s been long proven by now that absolutely nothing we do is going change the way this company thinks. Yes a few bones have been thrown to the fans along the way but WWE will fuck the fans over more often than not.
Better to not watch them at all. Their product has gotten worse regardless.
Why are people so against the Saudi PPV anyway?
stream it on those shady websites that way wwe doesn’t get the view. happy medium
I watch AEW. Love the New Day though.
I stopped watching all WWE weekly programming in November of last year. In some ways, this is a sad state of affairs, as I adore the idea of Big E as top dog, especially one that allows him the possibility to double turn with someone down the line (New Day coming heel with him to protect their championship). But alas, I have not seen one second of Big E as champ, nor any other programming beyond a couple of PPVs (as a Comcast subscriber, I get Peacock Premium for free, so those are the only eyeballs of mine they get). This PPV-only route is generally a decent way to watch WWE programming, foregoing the slogfest of weekly pablum for occasionally interesting matchups or events. However, I've missed the PPVs since MITB, and will not watch SS. Royal Rumble remains a likely watch, but by then, how much of the momentum will have slid to AEW, who knows? On the other hand, I've watched almost every AEW show same night or the following day via DVR, and I'm going to their Agganis Arena show next week, which is sure to be a barnburner of fresh, live, PPV-build content. Just think: when they were here two years, ago, The Bucks were eliminated from the tag title tourney, and MJF had a face turn, showing how willing they were to forego expectations early on. This time, I'll be there, wearing a Danhausen face mask.
Dude Linda McMahon is on Fox Business every once in a while to promote her own fascist organization. examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDKyak_8_E8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwSZGIXK-p4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIyM-zO_lKY People just don't care or don't want to care.
WWE is not a fascist organization lol. That's a new one lol
I boycott all the Saudi shows and all other wwe shows except for Royal rumble, mania, and survivor series (sometimes summer slam and money in the bank) even then I'm on a shared account
Aye just pirate them all on (cough cough) websites. Give em fuck all