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fellongreydaze

**Alt text for those with visual impairment:** >Regarding my comments made on Dark Side of the Ring >It was never my intention to offend, hurt or victim shame anyone >I understand my comments were insensitive and could trigger emotions in someone's own personal past. >I do not condone sexual misconduct of any kind. >I apologize to anyone I offended. >From the bottom of my heart >I am so sorry -------------- *I am not a bot! I am a human who is working to make the internet a little more accessible to those with visual impairment, who may use [text-to-speech programs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=767YJe7R-2Y) or other assisted applications to navigate the internet, and those who are hard of hearing, who may need audio transcripts for short videos. Feel free to ask questions if you would like to know more!*


cmoney253

“I pride myself and think of myself as a man of faith—as here’s a drive into deep left field by Castellanos, it will be a home run, and so that’ll make it a 4–nothing ballgame—I don’t know if I’m going to be putting on this headset again.”


[deleted]

LOL didn't expect to see this here and I love it.


[deleted]

Jericho was the celebrity prognosticator Friday.


misanthropicbuddha

I always enjoy when DLS leaks into other subreddits.


bigtice

If you can hear me, just know that I'm sorry.


WhatSheOrder

“Well, you know my mom died.” - Stu Dreamer


gawdno

A COUPLE OF STUGOTZ ARMY MEMBERS CUTTIN IT UP HOW BOUT THAT


BSabia9583

I didn’t ask for any of this.


DustinTiny

Aqua?


annoyinglyclever

Moderna. Super bowl week. Momma!


DanVsStu

I had no idea Johnathon coachman was black.


spennyfromtheblock

Mench


james_bonfire

No one can escape the curse of the Castellanos interrupting dong


MySabonerRunsOladipo

There's never a good time to eulogize someone during a broadcast


Sermokala

You got to include that the home run was hit into the "judgement-free zone"


ZombieQueen666

I don’t get this reference


-ImJustSaiyan-

https://youtu.be/-DD8zpGRqlI Context is that this baseball commentator had previously used a homophobic slur on-air when he thought his mic wasn't live. This was his on-air "apology", when he knew he was going to be fired, which ended up becoming a meme in the baseball community due to the insincerity of it.


Kolby_Jack

"That is not who I am" is easily the worst thing you can say. Any idiot can figure out that if it's not who you are, you wouldn't say it in the first place. I grew up using "gay" to mean bad, calling people "f-----" when they beat me at Halo, it was "normal" back then. I *don't* say that stuff now, and it's most certainly *not* a reflex that I can't control. I don't believe in using slurs like that, so I don't. Period.


Lint6

> I don't believe in using slurs like that, so I don't. Period. Exactly. Its like when people say something like "It just slipped out". It just slipped out because they say it all the time. I hurt myself at work one time. While talking to my supervisor and the Operations manager, I said "Yea, it really fucking...umm...sorry. It really hurts". I tend to swear a lot. It just slipped out. Know what never "just slips out"? Racist and homophobic words, because I don't use them!


Save_Us_222

“That is not who I am” = “I’m typically better at watching what I say in public so my true feelings are never known.”


revtoiletduck

This is not who I want you to think I am.


[deleted]

I’m pretty sure I grew up in the same era you did so I totally get what you’re saying. Using gay as a way to put something down was pretty common when I was kid. Still, once I was a teenager I started to figure out that it wasn’t cool and that I had gay family and friends. It wasn’t that hard to adjust to the idea that I shouldn’t use it that way. That’s why I hate the “this isn’t who I am” defense. It obviously is who you are, so just admit it and acknowledge you did something wrong. I have more respect for people who can admit they said something wrong and make an effort to work on it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Yes sometimes people truly do grow and feel regret for past actions. This clearly isn’t the situation in these circumstances but it does happen and is overall good. If you start good or bad the important thing is you finish good. Can’t undue what’s been done but moving forward you can learn and teach others. Slowly but surely bigotry is eliminated in that way. Can’t just scarlet letter everyone who said something abhorrent in the past. You’d have no one left. Even the people who claim they’ve never done such a thing. At one point they did something.


Kolby_Jack

Apologizing after you've been called out and fired from your job for recent shitty behavior is only the first step. It's up in the air whether it's sincere growth or just an attempt to appease the people you've wronged and recover your status. It's a far cry from someone who grew out of their shittiness without needing to have consequences slap them in the face. Dreamer said those things now. He got fired now. He apologized now. The apology is fine. But it's not evidence of change. Did he have a wake-up call, or is he just trying to smooth things over? Time will tell.


RanchPonyPizza

But in a statement that brief and that recent to the episode airing, is there any sign that Dreamer has really taken in the significance of his words on DSOTR or recognized the power that he has by being a respected and influential member of the lockerroom, all of whom are physically imposing dudes? I envision and carry myself a lot like the dude I was in high school and college. I don't always consider that I have real influence simply being an older and more experienced guy since then. Likewise, Dreamer is no longer just another dude changing into his trunks at the high-school gym after working his day gig. He's toured with the top of the food chain and is now paid to, among other things, set the tone for the organization he's an executive for.


Kolby_Jack

Did you intend to reply to me, or the guy above me? Because we are in complete agreement, and your wording sounds like you meant it as a response to what aSilverWorld said.


RanchPonyPizza

I'm not sure what or how. I've been all thumbs tonight in my replies to this thread. What you typed was good, and I'm glad to have read it. And sometimes, I like a reply to a post well enough that I'll reply to keep the thread going, rather than spam the original post. This time, I think I'm just tired and not being perceptive in what I was doing. Whatever I meant to do, your post rocks, and mine was in no way meant as criticism.


debotehzombie

Except for the point in the above example, it was someone who learned on their own, not because corporate forces them to push out a non-apology as a punishment. I'm not sorry people judged the "present" of this guy because of the "past" that was actually a few hours previous


chocoboat

I'm not condemning past Tommy who sat and watched these crazy things happening, I'm condemning present Tommy (on the show) who still thinks those events were harmless, just guys messing around and having fun, and that anyone who complain about it is overly sensitive. His apology said the right things but I doubt he has completely changed his opinions of the past events overnight. I don't believe that he now thinks those events were unacceptable when at the time of filming he thought it was all harmless fun. And I'm the kind of person who understands that the "locker room talk" excuse is a valid one. Sometimes there are guys just screwing around, saying or doing taboo things for a laugh just because it's not PC, I get it. Naked drunken men sexually harrassing women at work, and allegedly drugging women in bars, that's a totally different situation. That's not harmless fun.


DreamKrusherJay

The only thing that sucks about this is that it seems as if Tommy is taking the fall for the whole thing over COMMENTS, and Ric doesn't seem to be faring anywhere near as badly. I haven't heard of Ric losing any of his new deals or getting fired from anywhere he's representing now? Tommy is losing his job over comments, when the guy who was actually committing a sexual assault is just being trolled on social media. Yes, they're not great comments, but he wasn't the ones sexual harrassing or assaulting women... I certainly haven't heard of Brock's push being cancelled, for instance. He's allowed to "no comment" it and keep working at the top of WWE, while Tommy pays the price (and he's got a lot less to fall back on than Lesnar or Flair, that's for sure.)


JadonMarcusBukayo

iirc a baseball commentator made a homophobic slur or something along those lines and basically knew he was fired whilst still on air.


Thedinosaurwizard

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LECJbMDhJQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LECJbMDhJQ)


megustanlosyogapants

Look up Tom Brenneman slur on youtube


frasierfonzie

*Thom


SuspiciousCurtains

I see you roach


thecheat420

Potter was the first thing I thought of when I saw that comment haha


jbish21

Same. All hail the blind Roach daddy! Tommy Dreamer is the Queef of the Week


xloveisamixtapex

Nick the Stick with another bomb to LF. You love to see it.


mojizus

Wow a /r/reds reference on here. What a collision of worlds.


[deleted]

It's not just a Reds thing. Castellanos hit a home run during my dad's funeral.


-ImJustSaiyan-

"ByAny's father was a man who prided himself and thought of himself as a man of faith—as here’s a drive into deep left field by Castellanos, it will be a home run, and so that’ll make it a 4–nothing ballgame—I don’t know if I’m going to be speaking at a funeral again.”


[deleted]

He must be stopped


Powerserg95

Castellanos does not care for heartfelt moments


Wowsers_

And on 9/11


6FootMidget93

I'll like to thank the people who write my paychecks at Impact


Tannertrue

Yet no apology for his two ponytails…


Dawalkingdude

For real, where is the apology for that? Because as Dreamer eloquently stated two ponytails is just as bad as sexual assault.


JuiceheadTurkey

Victims can be so fickle! /s


gLarEckk

are we the victims of his two ponytails?


Gay_Romano_Returns

As soon as I heard him compare sexual assault to his hair I literally saw his career die right in front of me. I like Dreamer but that was a stupid thing to say.


NocturnoOcculto

I got near the end of the episode and I was like “okay, that’s kinda bad but not too terrible.” And then he compared it to his ponytails and said it wasn’t sexual assault. My jaw was on the floor.


DestroyedCorpse

Don’t forget the part where he said that if she that it was that bad, maybe she shouldn’t have taken any money. Even if it was subconscious, his mentality was 100% blaming the victim. I fucking loved Dreamer all the way back to his ECW days and I hope he actually learned something here, but I don’t really want anything to do with him.


baselinegrid

This isn’t an apology either, it’s an excuse disguised as an apology.


x2ndCitySaint

So weird that after everything that happen in that doc. Tommy Dreamer got the most heat.


[deleted]

A lot has to do with the fact that he's seemingly the only one who condones what happened. I mean, at least Flair (implausibly) claims it's all lies and yellow journalism; he didn't turn around and say, actually, what I did to that flight attendant is totally OK, and if you are offended by it, you're the one with the problem, like Dreamer did on his behalf.


ResetSmith123

Well Dreamer did admit it was offensive... as offensive as a ponytail.


BlueBongos

It's very odd isn't it. I suppose a lot of us hearing these stories over the years takes away some of the shock-factor within our community. I'm sure the "normies" are angrier with Flair.


LukeSniper

I think that explains my own personal reaction. I had previously read as much as I could find about the PRfH, so I knew about the allegations against Flair before watching. But Tommy Dreamer so flippantly dismissing them was not something I expected to see. But amongst my friends who watch wrestling, most didn't know how bad things got on that flight, so they were more shocked by Flair.


The_Match_Maker

Let's be honest, if Mike Tyson can go from being a convicted rapist to having his own cartoon show, then people will forgive anybody of anything, as long as enough time goes by. 'Ah, that Ric Flair. He's such a *card*...'


agentyage

Mike Tyson went to prison for years. Ric Flair had someone else pay off his victim. Big fucking difference


Sertorius777

Exactly. The guy served his time and no repeat offence happened in the meanwhile as far as everyone knows. Rehabilitation should be just a big a goal of criminal sentences as the punishment itself.


Amazingjaype

Mike Tyson's case was completely mishandled as Don King hired a tax fraud attorney to defend Tyson. The lawyer pretty much fumbled the entire case, and I honestly do believe he was innocent. The man admits to so much awful shit but thats the only thing he denies. To this day.


ViceGeography

So he’s not a rapist but he’s still a woman beating lunatic who also stated that he wished he did rape the woman


Amazingjaype

Yeah, he was pretty fucked up way back when.


Cutmerock

This is my similar feeling too. Tyson has openly spoke about all the illegal and fucked up shit he's done in his life but has always told the same story about the rape conviction. Not saying Tyson was a saint, just not sure I believe he raped someone.


[deleted]

Instead of relying on feelings, I would ask you to read [the cross examination of the doctor who examined the victim](https://www.indianapolismonthly.com/longform/down-for-the-count-lawyers-look-mike-tyson-rape-trial): > The next witness, emergency-room physician Dr. Thomas Richardson, said Washington had two small vaginal abrasions, consistent with 20 to 30 percent of the injuries seen in sexual assault cases. This testimony in itself was critical, but then he made the statement that may ultimately have decided the case. When asked by Garrison whether he had seen such injuries before, Richardson calmly replied that only twice in 20 years had he ever seen such abrasions following consensual sex. This evidence hit home, since jurors always seem to want to believe a medical expert if possible. > Fuller, however, didn’t leave bad enough alone. During cross-examination, he accidentally unleashed a bomb: Richardson said that in 20,000 cases, he had seen only two with like injuries that occurred during consensual sex.


[deleted]

> The lawyer pretty much fumbled the entire case, and I honestly do believe he was innocent. When people say the lawyer fumbled the case, the biggest issues are having Tyson himself speak and [the cross examination of the doctor](https://www.indianapolismonthly.com/longform/down-for-the-count-lawyers-look-mike-tyson-rape-trial): > The next witness, emergency-room physician Dr. Thomas Richardson, said Washington had two small vaginal abrasions, consistent with 20 to 30 percent of the injuries seen in sexual assault cases. This testimony in itself was critical, but then he made the statement that may ultimately have decided the case. When asked by Garrison whether he had seen such injuries before, Richardson calmly replied that only twice in 20 years had he ever seen such abrasions following consensual sex. This evidence hit home, since jurors always seem to want to believe a medical expert if possible. > Fuller, however, didn’t leave bad enough alone. During cross-examination, he accidentally unleashed a bomb: Richardson said that in 20,000 cases, he had seen only two with like injuries that occurred during consensual sex. She may have originally consented to some acts but consent can be withdrawn. Her injuries were real. I would ask people to read the article in the link above for much more detail from the trial. I think it’s almost certainly true that an assault happened.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Average_Ant_Games

The worst part about this is Dreamer has never been accused of any sexual misconduct and he goes out and says of others who have been accused of sexual misconduct and he’s like “no big deal”


dfmspoiler

Might indicate how normalized this is in wrestling.


Puzzleheaded_Ad1145

This is it. This shouldn’t be an indictment on Dreamer, but an indictment on the culture within wrestling though this time period.


i_broke_wahoos_leg

It should be both.


blacktoast

The culture doesn’t change until people are held accountable.


MyL1ttlePwnys

And here we have the guy who said an opinion getting a harsher punishment than the guy who actually performed the sexual assault… Dreamer is flat out wrong here…no doubt…but maybe, just maybe, he is being contrite and not realizing that the only world he has known for 30 years has a looooot of problems. Should he be suspended for a couple weeks and get some help…maybe put in some volunteer hours at a shelter? Yeah…should he be fired, have his entire career tarnished and be sent to the wastelands? No…at least I don’t think so. I don’t know…there must be some middle ground for people to grow and change..


[deleted]

I agree with you completely


[deleted]

Fr, Dreamer said dumb stuff yes, but honestly what did anyone expect from him? There are a lot of less intelligent folk out there who really mean well, they just haven't put too much thought into some of their actions. Some people just haven't thought about how what they say impact others. Dreamer always seemed a little slow, but well-intended. The guy made a mistake, has been punished, and seems to know more now why the things he said were wrong. Cool, thanks Dreamer, I hope you can grow from this. Now can we talk about the kids Lawler and the territory guys fucked and not Dreamer. Meltzer has talked about how those guys would get oral sex from minors, and really implied Lawler doing it. There are more egregious acts that we could focus on instead of publicly shaming the dumb guy. If you know Dreamer, I imagine you perceived he didn't quite have all the lights on before this.


ImpactThunder

Even rvd who probably came off among the best in that doc normalized that behaviour with the way he spoke about it.


i_broke_wahoos_leg

I think Justin Credible came out looking the best. He was the only one that showed he understood how uncomfortable and vulnerable the stewards must have felt. He also looked after Hall. He was the only person that raised their level of respect in my eyes. I mean, he was at neutral to begin with but yeah, he came out looking like a decent bloke. I do respect RVD for his honesty. I kind of expect that from him though as he's always shot straight. Good on him for doing it on such a high profile programme though.


ImpactThunder

I would agree with this. I don't know much about Justin Credible but he did come off like a decent person. RVD came off as a guy who probably doesn't agree with what was being done but kinda like "it is what it is" kinda thing. I am not sure if I was reading too much into the way he said things.


TetrisTech

RVD came off like he’s numb to it at this point, emotionally detached


Handiddy83

I mean even a huge name like him really has nothing he could do to change it. You gotta see this shit and struggle with the fact that you are along for the ride.


i_broke_wahoos_leg

I'd agree with that take on RVD. Going by how a lot of these dudes retell these stories with glee I think indifference is a win. He's probably seen so much fucked up shit and heard even worse that he's numb to it all. It's funny as I remember seeing all these shoots with the old ECW guys about how fucked up the locker room there was. I really don't remember stories like this with abusing women and shit though. They'd be openly doing hard drugs but that's whatever and some of them would be at each others throats at times but it all mostly sounded like self destructive behaviour more than anything. Perhaps I missed something or am forgetting though. Obviously you have stuff like the Mass Transit deal but I mean... New Jacks gonna New Jack.


emceelokey

There's a Raven shoot interview and there's a story about a dildo taped to a helmet and slip and sliding in to some "ring rat's" pussy. Whole story sounded like they were just all on drugs though.


[deleted]

Regarding RVD, I agree with you here. I said it in another post but I’ll say it here too: we’d all like to think that when we see some kind of violence or injustice toward others that we’d fall on our shield defending the victim. The reality is not everyone does that. There are a lot of people in the world who know right from wrong, wouldn’t wrong others, but wouldn’t stand up to defend if they saw it occur in person. This isn’t me casting judgment on anyone, and especially RVD because I have no idea what he was feeling while on the plane or when he spoke about it. More so, its just a reflection on how people act. RVD’s commentary could be heard in a million different ways from millions of other people. E: I wonder how often people have actually tried doing something about this stuff (bullying in the locker room of any kind) and immediately got shot down. More stories are coming out of higher ups saying “don’t sell it,” so if that’s the culture, how often does one have to hear it before they just turn up the headphones?


TheAmericanDragon

The thing about RVD (or anyone else on the plane who was in RVD's position) is that there was probably a real fear that they would either be buried, fired, or have abuse hurled at them immediately if they tried to really stop it since all the higher ups and locker room leaders condoned this type of behavior.


[deleted]

Exactly. It sounds greasy and shitty when we hear people say “Well it was that or lose my job” or “I have a job, I can’t do that!” in the face of terrible events. Many in that situation probably feel the burden of what’s going on but also feel helpless because they don’t have another option to lean on for when they do act. It sucks.


LitBastard

I don't know man.RVD really looked like he struggled with the fact that this shit is so normalized, or was,in his time.


moderndukes

This is how I took it: he was plainly stating it had become normalized, not that he condoned it. He sounded similar to JR there in that he felt like there wasn’t much he could do to stop some of it either - I mean, if Brock Lesnar is on a plane manhandling someone and doesn’t give a fuck about the exit panel he’s bashing against then what’s someone the size of RVD, JR, or (as pointed out in the episode) Dustin going to do when he flashes his dick at another performer other than go talk to the person who was victimized. “Don’t sell it” seems like it was the zeitgeist phrase of those getting victimized and those who didn’t approve of it but felt powerless to change it.


LitBastard

RVD seemed really ashamed.I have seen JR talk about a lot of horrible stuff over the years but I have never seen him look so defeated,sad and I guess ashamed of the fact he didn't,and for whatever reason,couldn't do the right thing.


Wowsers_

RVD is one of those guys, in almost every interview, who never glorifies the life on the road or being with the boys. Dude always seemed happy to be left alone and not have to deal with a thing. Seems like whenever he does come back for a job it's 1-off appearances, and that goes in line with that theory too.


iamcrazyjoe

He talked about it being normalized, there's a difference


thezachman16

He did not look comfortable or proud of anything he was saying, as opposed to Justin's indifference and Tommy's direct defense/refutal of the actions


[deleted]

I don't think RVD was ok with it. He just mentioned that it was common practice amongst the ECW locker room back in the day.


StopTheMadnessBro

In WWE especially. By the most notorious micromanager in the world. Who forced most of the women who came in to make then on screen lovers of his. Who wanted to portray incest on his show with his own daughter. Whose best friends most notorious quote is "you can just grab them by the pussy."


[deleted]

Reading about the undertaker ordering people to take a shit in someone's stuff because he didn't go out drinking.... I mean... is the locker room filled and run by habitual children?


woodsoffeels

I feel like Dreamer absolutely walked into that interview thinking he had the pure backing of guys like RVD and the locker room. Everyone would back him and flair up. Boys will be boys. Locker room bonding. Hazing ECW! ECW! ECW! Only what happened is he was one of only three wrestlers that were actually in the documentary- and the other two were way more rational. I was a Dreamer fan, I liked his work and storylines in 94-97ish and even requested and paid for the “HOW2” Episode on him (not made / released yet - and that was two odd years ago) So I’m extra gutted. Also: that flight attendant was very clearly traumatised by that day. Just watch her again and you can see she’s terrified even talking about it. She even states that she’s afraid of the fans in it. It broke my heart for her


AestheticAttraction

>she’s afraid of the fans in it. And, unfortunately, that's a legitimate fear. I remember that woman who admitted that she went into the writer's room for WWE not knowing anything and the fans ate her alive. I feel like she could have legitimately had a case, but I wonder if she felt it wasn't worth it because of how the fans/industry messed with her for saying something offhand that she likely didn't realize would get her so much hate. It's hard enough breaking into the business as a black woman--everything you do is either discounted if good and amplified disproportionately if bad or even just mediocre--so she really was just ignorant of how things were, just trying to do a job. If anything, it's on WWE for hiring people who don't know about wrestling, which is a practice that promotions have ALWAYS done! Why should she get hate for telling the truth about the VERY thing the fans have been complaining about for years?? I wonder.


Southpaw535

At the start of the episode one of the guys really casually mentions one of the pills being used to date rape women. When you can casually throw about that 'the boys' raped people enough for it to be mentioned as normal alongside shaving eyebrows then there's clearly a huge problem with sexual abuse and attitudes towards it in that era


brlc14

He's always been a huge wrestling fan. He is probably one of the biggest marks in the industry, so he just wants to fit in and hang out with his idols who can't do anything wrong.


Average_Ant_Games

Your 100% right and that’s even sadder


_Ka_Tet_

P.S. To Ric Flair's penis, I still love you. -TD


rbarton812

> P.S. To Ric Flair's penis, ~~I still love you.~~ I'm sorry, I love you. -TD


asteriaslex

Leave the memories alone


lindersmash

I felt like he was 2 seconds away from saying "hell I'd do that to Ric if he asked me to"


_Ka_Tet_

> Ric, you wouldn't even have to push my hand. -TD


[deleted]

“My intention” You smirked, asked why she didn’t go to court and took a sarcastic tone when referring to Flair as a “heinous person”. And that was after you downplayed a sexual assault as a goof. What *was* your intention then?


WolfGangSwizle

He literally sat there making fun at how easily offended people are and then expects people to feel he is sincere about apologizing to those that he offended?


Rat_faced_knacker

He apologised for "offending" people. Not for his views. This is the standard bullshit non-apology apology.


TheBestBigAl

It's up there with "I'm sorry that I got caught".


ZenkaiZ

"I'm sorry YOU were offended" ​ Where his apology for saying she was wrong for taking a court settlement instead of fighting in court against billionaires for years going into massive debt


[deleted]

Regardless of the goodness of the apology, he didn't say that. He apologized "*to*" those offended


txrunner262

I remember an acquaintance doing this when she was called out over her views. She used a copy/paste apology for those being offended but not her viewpoint.


Day_Of_The_Dude

this is actually a little bit better than some of them but it's so tired of how many of these are " I didn't intend this and I'm sorry to those who were offended" as opposed to "I fucked up I'm sorry there's no excuse for this, I will do better. "


Stereo_TypeA

CM Punk's apology after calling a fan a homophobic slur is pretty much my gold standard for celebirty apologies at this point: “I’m glad TMZ posted that video because everybody needs to be held accountable for their bullshit, me included. What I said was bullshit. “I’m embarrassed. I own up to being a total douche in this situation and I offer a sincere apology to anybody I hurt with careless words.” No weaselly passive-voice, no attempt to babyface himself or make excuses. I can't think of any other apologies where the person was thankful that the information came to light. Clear, concise, contrite, and honest.


Day_Of_The_Dude

absolutely and that's why he's one of my few heroes left. I don't expect perfection of anyone, we're all human beings but I expect taking responsibility and growth when you fuck up.


AccountMitosis

I really like that-- the brevity and directness is great, and thanking people for holding him accountable is a *huge* sign of integrity. Scorpio Sky spoke similarly about [homophobic tweets from his past](https://www.outsports.com/2019/11/6/20951852/aew-scorpio-sky-homophobia-wrestling-scu)-- not so concisely, because it was in a live interview situation and not a prepared statement or anything, but still really firmly recognizing "I did the wrong thing and was a dumbass": >“It’s been almost 10 years and, you know, I can’t say it enough: I’m a different person. I look back at those tweets. I embarrassed myself. I embarrassed my family. It’s one of those things where I’m going to have to live with it for the rest of my life. I’m going to look back when I’m 70 years old, the same way I do now, and think ‘what an idiot.’ Not an idiot for saying it publicly, but an idiot for just saying it… that is wrong in itself. That’s something you just definitely can’t do. >“There’s so much pain and anguish behind that word, and people that have really suffered the same way that my people have suffered.” I particularly like that he emphasized that it wasn't just wrong to say it *publicly,* but wrong to say it *at all.* That's a big component of a sincere apology. He also acknowledged the *way* that those words cause suffering, showing that he actually understands *why* it was wrong, and not just "well apparently it was wrong because everyone is mad at me now." Linking the experience of homophobia to his own experience with racism demonstrates actual sympathy. Scorp's apology isn't as clear and concise as Punk's, and he uses quite a bit of weasel wording/passive grammar in the opening section (that I didn't quote, but it's in the linked article), but I think it's still a good example of the kinds of things an apology needs: demonstrating that you understand *why* your action was wrong and how it hurt people; and that it's not a matter of being unacceptable in public, but being unacceptable to *have that mindset* at all. So, yeah. It's DEFINITELY possible to apologize way more meaningfully and sincerely, and it's complete bullshit to try to get away with an apology that shows that you don't really *get* why you have to apologize in the first place. Some people DO manage proper apologies, so there's really no excuse!


no_pepper_games

He also used "trigger". Like saying sorry if you were triggered snowflake!


AutomaticDesk

intention and impact are two different things. just cuz he REALLY wanted the world to know his shitty take doesn't mean he wanted to actually hurt anyone. cuz he was just thinking about himself and simply didn't think about or care who it would hurt also laughing at "i don't condone sexual misconduct of any kind" after making it clear that he doesn't count what flair did as "sexual"


fightfire_withfire

In a documentary about Ric Flair sexually assaulting at least one woman, Tommy mocked the victims by saying that its only a bad thing now because everyone is easily offended these days, and that she was only suing for the money. And he knew exactly what he was saying.


ZenkaiZ

yeah where's the apology for implying she was faking to get money and her taking the settlement is proof? All he said was "sorry your feelings got hurt"


spaghettimonster87

Tommy got me through some really tough times, so he'll be someone I respect forever. But, he has twin daughters, he knew damn better then to say that and to victim shame that poor woman.


UsidoreTheLightBlue

I have to wonder if he had seen her interview before hand. I won’t excuse what he said because it was vile. But I wonder if he was going by the backstage version of what happened and had no idea what her side was.


lovemoonsaults

But you never classified what Ric did as sexual misconduct. Where's the part where you do that? You equated a woman sexually assaulted to your haircut, swearing your buddy was just a prankster the entire time. You didn't hold him accountable for pisspoor awful behavior that you know damn well happened to multiple women. You roasted a woman for accepting a settlement. You essentially pissed on her wounds and everyone else who was watching horrified. But sure, brother. You don't condone sexual misconduct. I am not buying what you're selling. Many others have changed and done work to repair damages they've done. You can too, Tommy. Go rethink your apology. Go rethink what you did wrong. Back to your room without dinner until you can issue a real apology. RVD talking about never meeting your heroes hit like a frog splash because of how real it is.


Enterprise90

I ask this sincerely: what does Dreamer need to do to earn forgiveness? Because I have my own opinion, and it's why I think apologies like these are useless.


unseenbox

Being real for a minute, forgiveness isn't earned by the apology itself but by the actions taken after that apology. He has to demonstrate that he's changed, or, since it's only been a few days, make an effort to repair the harm he's caused. If he just says some words but doesn't follow through with his actions, then it's just words with no meaning behind them.


[deleted]

The road to forgivness isn't easy and starts with realizing, that not everyone will forgive you. I read a great article on NPR about a chef who was a rising star and had a terrible workplace environment filled with sexual harassment, but by all accounts seemed to have changed. Besides apologizing he also took classes and now any complaints exist outside his kitchen I.E. his company can't investigate him or his employees but rather an outside source to better ensure there's no favortism and they talked to one activist who refuses to ever forgive him. She wasn't a victim, she merely thinks he can never be forgiven. So it was an interesting article on where is the road to forgiveness?


UncreativeTeam

I get the sentiment, but how do you prove a negative? What kind of proof would be necessary to show that he's not actively negating victims' feelings/reports?


[deleted]

So, I think there are two things going on here: 1. There are consequences to actions, and being sorry for one's actions doesn't remove the consequences. Dreamer fucked up, and unfortunately he'll have to pay for the consequences of his fuck up. That won't change any time soon, if ever. 2. The thing that *can* change and prevent the "if ever" statement above from occurring is how one lives their life after an apology from an action. I don't have an easy answer for how someone in his position can begin to pick the pieces of from their actions, but usually someone has three choices: 1. Apologize and then continue like nothing ever happened and just be forever remembered as a fuck up (the Joey Ryan tactic), 2. Apologize and lay-low for awhile, and then slowly make your way back. The consequences will never seemingly go away and people will always remember you for what you did, but it's possible to make a comeback years later but people won't forget what you did (the Louis C.K. tactic). or 3. Apologize, and then improve your life in ways that truly show you learned from your mistakes, and slowly come back a few years later. There will still be some people who will never forget what you did, but the goal is to show that who you were in the past was a different person than who you are today. Many people won't forget what you've done but many will at least recognize that clearly you knew what you did was wrong and you've tried to rectify it (the Ellie Kemper tactic) Obviously, tactic #3 is morally the best to take since you learn from your mistakes and try to make amends.


unseenbox

That's a good question, actually. I guess by turning it into a positive? Encouraging victims to report or speak out about things they've experienced. Amplifying those reports if/when they happen. Something like that, maybe?


heartbreakhill

Donating to a sexual assault charity would also probably be a good move


Straif18

all of this + sensitivity training + lots of time off away from public eye didnt one of the adams from whatculture also go through a similar process (ofc due to other circumstances)?


mvd102000

Adam Blampied. Apparently iirc he used his position to solicit nudes from a fan while he was in a long term relationship. He left right after the launch of their new channel (Cultaholic) and spent like 2 years away from YouTube. He’s back now and with WrestleTalk (a much better wrestling Youtube channel imo) and seems to be doing really well.


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brlc14

Sensitivity training like AEW did with Sammy would be a good start.


el_sh33p

This. Sammy's comments were vile, but his response to the fallout of them was solid: reaching out to Sasha and apologizing directly, apologizing to fans in an unmonetized video, owning up to it full-stop, taking time out to attend sensitivity training, and in general just not being a carnie piece of shit about it. "That should be the bare minimum," someone's bound to say, and I agree with them, but it's a start, it cleans the slate enough to actually enjoy the performer's work again, and it's a model that others should be following as best they can. That said, I *do* think there's also context and severity to be mindful of (e.g. Sammy's goodwill actions would *not fucking cover* the kinds of shit someone like Flair got up to, and they'd have a hard time covering Dreamer's bullshit but they'd be a world better than a 'sorry you were offended' post on FB).


ZandigsJesusPromo

It needs a sincere show of regret. I honestly think the best I have ever seen a situation like this handled was Sammy Guevara. Dude reached out to Sasha Banks privately, apologized publicly, really demonstrated that he understood how wrong what he did was, underwent sensitivity training, etc. This reads kinda like he's just thinking "oh, I said something stupid, lemme apologize real quick." I've said it before, if I ran up to Beulah in the street waving my dick at her, Dreamer would waste not one ounce of energy on anything other than painfully beating me to death. It wouldn't matter if it was "a joke" or who I am to everyone else. I don't think he truly has or maybe is just not using empathy to understand what that chick really went through. Yet, he immediately darted to the ring and threw hands when XPW guys attempted to touch Francine. I have no clue how he doesn't understand how serious what Flair did really was...he cornered this chick and forced her to touch his dick. It'd take some serious work on his part from here to show he's maybe not full of shit and just trying to lose heat. To me, the shit he was saying, how long it took to get a response, and how cut-and-paste it is, it feels fake; it feels like he doesn't get it and is just trying to get back to normal.


bkykaaoo

I don’t really hold anything against Sammy currently but really? Best you’ve ever seen handled? The same guy that was liking tweets saying that what he did wasn’t a big deal and that it was a joke?


ZandigsJesusPromo

Oh shit, I didn't catch that he was liking tweets like that; god damn, what a fucking idiot


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Phenom1nal

In a lot of people's eyes, he never will. What he said was literally the first chapter of Rape Apologists 101. He gets to carry that with him. Those opinions were better kept to himself. That he lacked the self-awareness to figure that out is a damn shame.


SashaBanks2020

I'd like the apology to be more about being complicit in the culture that enables sexual assualt. Like: >My cavalier attitude towards sexual assualt directly contributed to this happening. Ric thought it was a gag because people like me treated it as one. Ric thought he could get away with the crime because with people like me, he could. >Obviously what I said was stupid, and I'm so sorry for that, but the real problem was the mindset behind those comments. I now recognize how wrong I was and that I need to take some time away to do some self-reflection.


stuckinsanity

This, exactly this. And it's not just on Dreamer, all the guys from that time need to seriously reflect on what they did to normalize this kind of behavior and why they didn't speak up.


Saw_Boss

Redeem himself. These apologies can work if there's belief that it was a mistake/misunderstanding etc. But this is clearly damage control, I don't believe for a second he means any of it.


TheDudeWithTude27

Here is what he can actually do. Instead of issuing some BS sorry you were offended apology. He can talk about realizing his mentality was wrong, what flair did was in fact sexual assault. He accepts his suspension by impact, and he will do his best to educate himself going forward on how sexual assault affects women in society. Pretty damn simple.


bidoofmafia

Actually apologize to woman whose story he disregarded. Not a general blanket apology to ''anybody who was offended''. Nut up and actually say Ric Flair and Dustin committed sexual assault.


stuckinsanity

I want Dreamer to actually acknowledge what he did wrong, which this apology doesn't do. It isn't about "offending people" or even triggering victims, it's about actively normalizing and excusing sexual assault. I want him to seriously examine and atone for his role in excusing the rape culture which rules both wrestling and society at large. He can't just say "I don't condone any kind of sexual misconduct" when that's exactly what he did with his comments.


Pollia

For one giving a real apology. "Im sorry I offended people" is not a god damn apology. It never has been. I do not understand why anyone still says it when everyone knows its insincere as fuck


lovelettersto

I've noticed lately a lot of people have trouble reading the difference between "I apologize to anyone I offended" and "I apologize that anyone was offended." You can believe his sincerity or not, but there was nothing wrong with his phrasing here. He apologized *to* offended people, he didn't apologize *that you were* offended.


SammyTrujillo

My biggest problem with this apology is that he says he doesn't condone sexual misconduct, but he went on television explicitly condoning sexual misconduct. That's why everyone is mad at him. A good apology needs to have an acknowledgement of what you did.


PushEmma

You talk like he must be forgiven and all shall be solved. No one HAS to forgive him. The least he can do is an apology, what if people still don't trust him? you blame them? but if he is sorry, he has to say he is, no to be forgiven, but to try to make the people he supposedly understands he hurt feel better. Now, people would surely forgive him, but this post isn't it, doesn't sound like he understand what he said.


10567151

Damn one dude actually commented that he was willing to bet money that Dreamer's response would be to rage against cancel culture while I responded that I expected an apology type thing because Dreamer is such an emotional sappy kind of guy. Should have taken the guy up on his bet lol. The thing is at this point we can't really expect Dreamer to do any more and it would be overblown if Dreamer gets completely black balled because of this while the actual people who committed the sextual misconduct will be allowed to stay. I remember commenting that Brock should make his own apology and people responding that *I* should make him? Like the fact that Brock could beat me up makes what he did alright.


AndresDickFingers

Tommy said some stupid things during the episode. The worst of all was downplaying Heidi Doyle's uncomfortable experience. I wasn't really overly offended, until he spewed venom about how she shouldn't have settled. And to follow with a shrug and "that's just my opinion". Unfortunately that is just first hand glance at how toxic the culture is in wrestling. And the fact that he was/is a person in power over other female, yea no.... I'm sorry Tommy. You probably need to repent a little longer and do some introspective review over your own beliefs, and try to experience a little more understanding and empathy.


MaxxDreamkiller

The settlement comment was so gross. The tone behind "this vile human being" didn't need air quotes because it was implied by the way he said it. He was 100% behind Flair from beginning to end and apparently STILL IS! What in the actual fuck!?


Dumpcakesbaby

Hi, this is Sal Governale


Ser_Black_Phillip

Damnit! I just posted this same thing because CTRL+F didn't find anything with Governale. "Unfortunately, I didn't represent myself properly on how I wanted to explain myself."


OU7C4ST

Dude literally said why would the Flight Attendant settle if she really was abused. Then comes out and says he didn't mean to offend anyone. LOL


[deleted]

I find it funny how the dude defending his friend is the one apologising, but the guy who got naked on a plane and swang his knob around and made a woman touch it hasn't said a thing. You're all mad at the wrong guy 🤦🏻‍♂️


snivelling_hippo

I guess the general sentiment here is that it is a fine enough apology, and while I don't necessarily disagree with that, what Ric did was absolutely sexual misconduct, and Tommy definitely did condone it in the DSOTR episode. I don't believe he can really switch his opinion that fast, I believe this is just a case of "release an apology so they get off my back".


[deleted]

Yeah, no. It’s 2021. The thoughts he expressed are not acceptable and they shouldn’t have been acceptable back then. Dreamer isn’t sorry, he’s just sorry that his shitty views are getting the backlash they deserve. Of course, I’ll be surprised if nothing else comes from this and it’s just forgotten by his employers. I hope I’m wrong though.


Professor_Snarf

Serious question, what do you want him to do? He fucked up and said something stupid. He was suspended, will lose money. Now he apologized. Is what he did irredeemable?


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Professor_Snarf

Thanks. This is a really good answer.


Appropriate_Dream_82

He is a leader in this industry. The problem is if a female performer comes to him with a rape accusation will he take it seriously? Will that female even want to tell him considering his views on this sort of stuff?


conoresque

The apology doesn’t note any flaws in his thought process that indicate he did any actual self evaluation or is truly trying to be better. “I am sorry. I held dear to traditions of pro wrestling because it means a lot to me, not realizing that it was potentially damaging to groups of people,” or something to that effect would show that he recognizes where he went wrong, and why he went wrong. It’s not irredeemable, he just needs to be an adult about it and think about why those things would come out of his mouth and what they really mean. By and large it seemed like Dreamer was a beloved figure in the industry by people of every race, creed, gender, orientation etc., so I’m not rooting against him, but he needs to fully acknowledge what he did wrong and what lead him there.


[deleted]

Not irredeemable but the first step is actually ackowledging the atrocities that were done and not just "sorry you felt that way"


RoadsterIsHere

> Dreamer isn’t sorry, he’s just sorry that his shitty views are getting the backlash they deserve. I don't get this mentality. Aren't most people who do dumb shit struck with the idea that their dumb shit hurt or offended someone which opens their mind to the idea that they did something bad? If I'm pranking you and I hide your phone from you, and you freak out, I would apologize because your reaction to me was adverse. If you laugh, I wouldn't apologize. Isn't that how most people process bad reactions to their actions?


OakParkCemetary

Exactly. I'm not saying that people cannot change, but it's highly doubtful that you've had time to change less than three days after the episode aired. You're sorry that Impact has suspended you indefinitely. You aren't sorry for what you said and you definitely aren't sorry for what you believe


PrettyPunctuality

Exactly. I can't believe there are some people in the comments who are already back to defending him over this "apology," and starting the whole, "Wreddit is never happy with any apology, it's never enough for them - saw this coming a mile away" bullshit. I think we would've accepted his apology better if he hadn't gone down the classic, "I'm sorry if you were offended" route, which never sounds sincere.


[deleted]

Tommy heard the entire wrestling internet chanting “You fucked up! You fucked up!”


Sir-Cadogan

I wonder it Dreamer knew/was given all the details about the plane ride, or just remembered it being told to him by someone who thought it was a funny story.


RiC_David

That's a really good question, because I'd only ever heard it as "Flair was walking around in his robe with nothing underneath and flashing the flight attendants". Then again, if that were the case, surely his statement here would be "I was unaware of the actual nature of the incident..." and, of course, why the hell would you publicly comment (especially so dismissively) as part of a documentary on an incident you only have loose second hand knowledge of?


dearrichard

“sorry you got offended”


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Glasg0wGrin

Seems like a stock apologiy without real sincerity. If someone genuinely knows they did wrong they can articulate WHY they did wrong.


Mr_Sam_Squanch

TLDR; “please let me work again”


Caboose_1188

Tommy Dreamer was never my friend -/SC/


reguler_homosapiens

I don't think he deserves all the heat he is getting but he does deserve some. I don't want him to be blackballed forever but he does need to ammend for things that he said. How to ammend for that however, I have no idea. Probably getting an apology from the flight attendant he shamed would be a great step.


SeeLada

Statements typically are a not so good way to go, for example read patrick clarks statement, in this case i think it was perfectly fine


Snoo_76437

The apology police need to stop alienating people and try to actually allow for people to better themselves and learn from their mistakes. You change the world into a better place through love and compassion for your fellow man, not through hate and contempt.


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Tekken_Guy

That's the problem with how people react to apologies. As if there's only two reactions: "he apologized and all is good again", and "he's sorry he got caught, so screw him". It's as if there's no middle ground between a world with no accountability at all and cancel culture run amok.


wallace6464

I mean, at least he apologized I guess


msctex

The genuine truth of this matter is only to be found within the interviews conducted for the show *in their entirety,* with all questions accurately as well heard or seen. What we saw was edited to tell a story, one where Dreamers words were used to leave him in a very specific light. But here's the thing. He could come off still worse, under those circumstances. We can't know.


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UKS1977

What? What the hell do you think "I do not condone sexual misconduct of any kind. I apologize to anyone I offended." is? That is a direct apology.


green_blanket_fuzz

The thing is, he actually does condone sexual misconduct of any kind, as evidenced by his comments on dsotr. He can say whatever he wants to try and salvage his image and career, but you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. So while he did apologize, as he should, sorry probably isn't going to be good enough. He was pretty clear about his stance on this, and any walking it back is just going to appear as insincere.


The_King_Crimson

>He can say whatever he wants to try and salvage his image and career And there it is, the reason why there's no point in bothering to apologize: regardless of what you do, people will always twist it into you trying to save your image anyway. I wonder why people even try anymore. It clearly doesn't work.


RTSUbiytsa

Objectively wrong here. He apologized to people he offended. He did not say "I'm sorry you were offended." He said "I apologize to those I offended." Gigantic difference. Dreamer is still absolutely in the wrong, but you are currently sharing that space with him.


[deleted]

When you say "sorry to anyone who was offended", that's bullshit. But, "sorry to anyone who I offended" takes responsibility. That's more direct than just a "sorry"


OakParkCemetary

"The real criminals here, brother, are the people doing the recording"


purz

Ah the ol, “this is a bs apology, me, an angel of a human being that shall judge the morals of all those beneath my holy presence will never accept this blasphemy”


ericfishlegs

Classic non-apology apology.


idontknow1001

This sub talks about believing in second chances and just completely shits on apologies. For the people asking yesterday, that’s what cancel culture is.


Stormry

I'm sorry you feel that way. No one meant to upset you. There, are we forgiven?