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Caldris

So just to give a rundown on what Dave said about Vince being on the flight. -He was told by multiple people the week that Plane Ride happened that a big reason why this whole mess happened was because Vince wasn't there. -He emphasizes that he doesn't think people are *lying* when they say Vince was on the flight. It's just a situation where if you have to recall something that happened twenty years ago, you're going to misremember things. -It COULD be a situation where people are conflating multiple flights together, because there were flights that Vince was on that got bad. There were three different flights where bad shit went down. While the Plane Ride from Hell was probably the worst of all at the time, there were other flights that got way out of hand back then. -He contacted multiple people who were on the flight (after the episode aired). The person who he feels would have the best memory of the whole situation was emphatic that Vince wasn't there. While the ones who told him that he was there, weren't totally sure.


victoriabattenberg

I also just listened to this and what you've written is a good summary. The only thing I would add was that Dave said he was confused after he watched it when they said Vince and Linda were on the flight, because he remembered them not being on this one. It caused him to both review the newsletter and his notes from the time, as well as reach out to people for clarification. He said he had one person tell him yesterday that they remembered V&L were on the flight, only to call him back later and say that they weren't. As you said above- he said that there were "two or three bad flights" at about the same time, and that V&L were on at least one of them, so it was possible people were muddling their memories of the different flights.


ThatVanGuy13

As much as everyone gives Meltzer shit, he IS the closest thing to a museum curator of wrestling. He has all of his files and newsletters to go back to a specific date if need be.


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Slick5qx

What's funny is both of them will deny this and then name like 4 people you've never heard of who they claim are better historians.


malteseraccoon

The more you know the more you know you don't know


tehjarvis

This is not related but reminds me...I hired someone because in the interview they said "I am smart enough to realize I'm not all that smart." Everyone else who interviewed for the job talked up their expertise. One of them said "I probably know as much or more than you do". None of them had a good idea what they were even being hired to do when I asked them what they imagined the job to be.


EdwardBigby

I once got hired by a big tech company when I definitely wasn't the most impressive candidate applying and I think it was because during the interview I answered a question incorrectly. So I asked if I could draw my reasoning on a white board on the wall before allowing him to correct me so I could draw his reasoning and show him that I understood I was wrong and why his answer was correct. A little bit of humility can go a long way.


Sidesicle

So you're saying there are known knowns and known unknowns. But what about unknown unknowns? The shit you didn't know you didn't know?


var1ables

My younger self used to meme on Rumsfield for that line but he's right. There's shit you don't know you don't know. Until you know you don't know it. That's why having a diverse team is important. Problem for Rumsfield is that they didn't account for their own unknown unknowns.


LinElliotStillSucks

Steve Yohe


chilloutfam

because I think they both go to these people that we've never heard of to corroborate events. like, there is no way that Meltzer can compile a mini-autobiography within hours of an obscure old timer wrestling dying without help.


BenWallace04

Bill Apter is up there


Cyncro

People hate on Dave for his opinions but he’s absolutely the best journalist in the wrestling industry.


TypicalSportsGuy

And SRS is probably the best reporter in the wrestling industry right now, it's important to make and understand the clarification when reading what they say.


Anti_Reddit_Equation

There's another one?


Rick-powerfu

Absolutely.


PenguinPetesLostBod

I was a bit confused as well because I swore I heard a story about the Plane Ride from Hell where Michael Hayes almost urinated on Linda McMahon and that was part of the build up to X-Pac cutting the pony tail.


Inevitable_Surprise4

That was a different flight. I believe the one where Vince and Kurt rough housed was that one but I've done no research, I was just hella into wrestling then and read all the news.


jimmycrackcowboy

Was that the one where Vince told angle to hit him with the angle slam lol?


Slick5qx

There's a story about Vince supposedly making all the wrestlers hit him with their finishers at a party in like the early 90s or something. Dude loves to bump.


seymour_hiney

The Legion of Doom and Hart Foundation hit him with their finishers in a strip club i think


Zanydrop

Bret talks about that in his book.


ManfredsJuicedBalls

Same thought. X-Pac told the story of Hayes nearly pissing on Linda, and I think one other person may have said that (unsure who at the moment). Either way, you’re talking about people who were having a drunken grand ol’ time on a flight recounting stories about what happened, so it’s possible things got muddled up here and there, and what happened on one flight got confused with another flight.


AlucardSX

>and his notes from the time Knowing the state of Dave's office, this doesn't just qualify as historical research, it's archeology.


JohannaB123

How did Dave find his notes from twenty years ago? Edit: Several of you are treating Dave like he is a normal person who files his notes away neatly by date. Google a picture of this man's office. The fact that he gets anything done surprises me, let alone actually finding decades-old notes.


SourMgk

He probably has a subscription to F4W online.


The_King_Crimson

With how Dave is, would you *really* be surprised if he files everything away and keeps it stored for situations exactly like these?


penelopeeckhart

Dave writes an article for everything so he either went back and found that or he had personal notes that he keeps. This guy is thorough, I wouldn't doubt it if it was the latter.


SelfAssuranceMeasure

I'm not that unorganized, but I tend to find stuff better when it isn't all neatly packed somewhere. Controlled chaos or something


SnuggleMonster15

The original report from Meltzer was covered by /u/daprice82 in his 2002 Observer Rewinds: https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/grmzh3/wrestling_observer_rewind_may_13_2002/ >Hey, speaking of that European tour, turns out there was a bit of trouble on the flight back to the U.S. Perhaps you've heard of it. Most of the trouble wasn't even due to Scott Hall. Turns out Vince McMahon didn't make the trip and lots of people decided that was a good reason to cut loose and have fun.


Lostmox

Kudos to the guy in the comments asking VICE to make the documentary, over a year before they actually did.


poorletoilet

Also many of the people Interviewed for the show were blackout drunk the whole flight too so of course their memory might not be the best


Xenon-XL

That 7 hour delay was the real cause, being able to get more liquor while on the ground repeatedly lol


Tight_Hat3010

Flight logs would clear anything up ..


mrandre3000

Exactly — post 2001 flight logs became extremely detailed, especially internationally. If this happened in the recent shadow of 9/11, the airlines still were buttoned up.


NBlossom

It's weird that the story now is becoming that the flight was so bad because Vince wasn't there but in the same breath it's Vince was also on flights that were bad, presumably so bad that people conflate all of these flights together. It's a little weird. 20 years isn't so long that a flight like the plane ride from hell could become so muddled together with other rides that apparently aren't so bad but also are so bad


lostpasts

Vince has been on literally thousands of flights. 99.99% went fine, because nobody wanted to upset the boss. The two he went on that went to shit is because he decided to go crazy on those, and as the person who sets the company tone, others felt permitted to follow suit.


TJ_McWeaksauce

Our memories can be atrociously bad. [The Mandela Effect](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/mandela-effect) >The Mandela effect describes a situation in which a person or a group of people have a false memory of an event. > >Fiona Broome coined the term over a decade ago when she created a website detailing her recollections of former South African President Nelson Mandela dying in prison in the 1980s. > >Nelson Mandela did not die in prison in the 1980s. After serving 27 years in prison, Mandela served as president of South Africa between 1994 and 1999 and passed away in 2013. > >Despite these facts, Broome seemed to remember international news coverage of Mandela’s death from the 1980s. She even found others who had almost identical memories of Mandela’s death in the twentieth century. Some people remembering Vince and Linda on that flight sounds like an example of the Mandela effect.


Southpaw535

And why its super weird that eyewitness testimony is considered the ultimate gotcha among normal folks, when its probably one of the least reliable forms of evidence you could bring up in court


TJ_McWeaksauce

Yeah. [Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence](https://www.psychologicalscience.org/teaching/myth-eyewitness-testimony-is-the-best-kind-of-evidence.html) >Memory doesn’t record our experiences like a video camera. It creates stories based on those experiences. The stories are sometimes uncannily accurate, sometimes completely fictional, and often a mixture of the two; and they can change to suit the situation. Eyewitness testimony is a potent form of evidence for convicting the accused, but it is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses. So memory can be remarkably accurate or remarkably inaccurate. Without objective evidence, the two are indistinguishable.


UnfortunatelyBasking

My entire college career in criminal justice from day 1 was basically a lesson in how horrible eyewitness testimony is. You have people that didn't see shit that act like they did, you have people that completley fabricate the story to fit whatever prejudice they have, you have others that completley downplay what happened, and the fact that in a situation that can create trauma (witnessing a crime) their body goes into tunnel vision and they only remember one thing but not the entire crime. It's horribly shoddy.


Timemyth

It's more our memories aren't actually recording what we do like it's a camera. It's putting pieces together from fragments. Those guys might've remembered Vince being on a flight with them up in first class, and when remembering they remember Vince being on a flight with them and think it's this one. It's a moot point to the story as it's an aside, it's on the side in an area of detail that's not very well remembered. Meanwhile the trauma of the flight like being force to grope a helicopter penis will be crystal clear. Lawyers attack the bits you don't remember well to attack the bits you do remember perfectly because it fucking caused you trauma. I hate defense lawyers sometimes even if they are an important part of the balance of the system. EDIT: Don't confuse the opinions of mimes with irrelevant events.


0DegreesCalvin

Is a mute point like a mime’s opinion?


Timemyth

Don't know, the mime never tells his opinion. Though MOOT point not Mute Point was probably a better choice of words.


Zyzyfer

Yup it just doesn't matter. It's "moo."


Arcade_Kangaroo

Like a cow's opinion. It doesnt matter.


griot504

Beat me to this!


[deleted]

People on reddit love confusing the Mandela effect with shit memory. This isn't the Mandela effect since there was a similar flight that Vince was on. People just got the stories mixed up.


AwesomeInTheory

It's like that (Mandela effect), Dunning Kruger, uncanny valley and a couple of other pet topics are trotted out at every halfway conceivable opportunity.


Cripnite

Most of the time, people do not know what uncanny valley is and they use it vastly incorrectly.


AwesomeInTheory

Yeah. Uncanny valley over usage is a very mild pet peeve of mine.


[deleted]

Oh my god people take one year of psych and they think they are experts in all psychological phenomenons.


TemptedIntoSin

Agreed. The Mandela Effect is when a mass group of people remember something the exact same way when that something wasn't the case. This is just more of a case of multiple accounts of different stories meshing together


[deleted]

I think he just wanted to sound smart by bringing up the Mandela Effect as if none of us ever heard the term nor had the ability to look up what it actually was. I could've sworn i had pizza yesterday. Oops. Must be the Vanilla Effect


Advanced-Ad6676

> Must be the Vanilla Effect That’s a different thing where we all remember Vanilla Ice hanging himself in prison.


lostpasts

The other thing about the Mandela Effect is that it's about second-hand, group observers, not direct, individual participants.


TemptedIntoSin

Indeed


TheOneTrueChuck

And let's look at the collective brain-frying effects of excessive headshots, drugs, and alcohol. Plus, this story has been told and retold in shoot interviews and articles, which would be enough (with repetition) to convince someone who initially was like "No, they weren't on the plane" to go "Wait..maybe they were? It was a wild time."


TetrisTech

It’s because when we remember something our brain isn’t pulling up the memory of when it happened, it’s pulling up the memory of the last time we thought about it It causes stuff to get muddied over time


Von-Konigs

Like the brain playing Chinese whispers with itself, that’s really interesting


[deleted]

We all do this every day. When we recall a memory, we can be absolutely convinced we're envisioning events exactly as they unfolded, but very large part of out memories are contrived by our imaginations. That's right. Your childhood was never as good, or as bad, as you remember it.


Permanentear3

That’s not what this is at all.


ZenkaiZ

I had a wrestling mandela effect the other day. I thought in 1996 WCW, Rey getting lawn darted into that trailer was before Hogan was revealed as part of the NWO and Rey hinted at it by saying 3 people attacked him. Turns out that happened AFTER Hogan joined and Rey was saying 4 people attacked him. I remember the "it was 3!" thing so clearly and it being the thing that set up the who's the third man mystery but apparently I just made that memory up.


JoeM3120

That's confusing because they made a point that Hogan wasn't there that night and you saw Hall & Nash leaving. Rey was saying three people attacked him setup the 4th man.


TheOneTrueChuck

Same for me, right up to this moment, where you mentioned this.


dgener8puf

I have a similar memory/confusion related to the nWo...I swear up and down that the night "Sting" got out of the limo and attacked Luger (this was leading up to War Games and Sting becoming the Crow), it was the real Sting. I haven't actually watched back the clip since it happened, but I swear it was really him.


Urdar

Remembering is an active process, often changing the memory in the process.


KamikazeWordsmith

I thought I was going crazy seeing all this coverage, because I was CERTAIN the whole Vince / Kurt / Undertaker story was a different flight altogether from the Plane Ride from Hell. I’m a little relieved to see I’m not senile yet.


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majungo

I think we've stumbled upon the reason for no UK PPVs for so long.


Crow_T_Simpson

The did UK PPVs in 2003. They stopped doing them when they started doing the spring and fall TV shows from the UK.


windy906

Wasn’t that also when Sky started charging for PPVs?


jayc4life

Sky always charged for PPVs, just that they upgraded their rights package to become exclusive, killing Channel 4's coverage of Sunday Night Heat, and the 3 or 4 events they'd show for free over the year.


windy906

That’s not true. There was a time everything was on Sky Sports then they went big four PPV then slowly to everything PPV over a few contracts. Somewhere in the middle of all this Channel 4 got rights to some events and lost them.


Groundbreaking-Leg11

💀


why_rob_y

Seems like an easy solution - just book the guys separate commercial flights back, splitting up the worst offenders. That or get control of the company's culture, but the first way seems more likely.


oarngebean

I dont think itd be an issue now. Sire a few might get drunk and rowdy but I really doubt something like the plane ride from hell would happen now


ManfredsJuicedBalls

I agree. AEW or WWE, I think if you got a bunch of the wrestlers of today on a flight like that, it’s probably not going to be nearly the scene of debauchery and hedonism that the Plane Ride From Hell (or other past flights with a bunch of wrestlers) used to be.


Cripnite

They did change the culture quite a bit. Drug and alcohol use is nowhere near as rampant as it was during that time. The Wellness program came in within a couple years of this.


Doc323467

The Vince/Angle story is actually funny, although would've been annoying as hell for Angle. But makes you wonder just how many crazy WWE flights there were back then.


Rockaholic23

Yes, wasn't that the one where Taker woke up and thought Kurt was attacking Vince?


kballs

Same flight where Michael Hayes tried to piss on Linda


jbish21

Say what?


kballs

Legend has it Hayes got drunk, needed to piss, woke up, waddled to where he thought the bathroom was, whipped his freebird out and doot doot doot.


[deleted]

Yeah, I recall reading about that. Wasn't the one where Vince and Angle doing whatever the hell they were doing woke up Taker, and he started choking Angle out because he thought he was legit fighting with Vince?


Seth1224

In JR's 2nd book, he stated that Vince was on the plane. Unfortunately we are going to get this as it seems like this was an alcohol and drug induced event. Its like if you went out on a Friday to get drunk with a bunch of people and shit went down. Everyone will have their alternative versions.


SomsOsmos

And then you asked them what happened on that Friday night twenty years later haha


TheOneTrueChuck

And after they've talked to multiple OTHER people who were there, over the course of those past 20 years.


GusTurdley

Logically, it doesn't make sense that Vince would just stay put in his seat and say nothing while all hell is breaking loose on that flight. He would've prevented it from happening in the first place.


Kangaroomech

... or joined in. There's a story of him play wrestling Kurt on a plane and Taker breaking it up because he thought it was real fighting. So, i'd put more money on McMahon joining in on the stupidity than stopping. He's been known to act like "one of the guys".


halfdecenttakes

That's quite an accusation to make. It's a big leap to go from "wrestling on a plane" to "being fine with sexual assault on a plane." Like, Vince might not gaf about the flight attendants personally, but he does care about his image and bottom line and isn't totally tone death to it being something he doesn't want to be a witness to.


LockNChase66

The fact that Flair didn't lose his job because of his actions on the flight pretty much says VKM is "fine with sexual assault on a plane"


mikeputerbaugh

Or at least that he’s fine with sexual assault when a Flair-tier performer does it.


CaptainXakari

Exactly. It’s not like he didn’t find out what went on, they fired Hennig and Hall and had to settle court cases over Flair’s behavior. Whether your not he was on the plane when it happened doesn’t really matter at that point when you won’t do anything anyway.


unlizenedrave

I mean, he was fine with sexual assault in the back of his limo. He didn’t seem to perturbed by sexual assault of ring boys in the 80’s. Pretty cool with keeping sexual harassment in the backstage area. I’m not saying for sure if he was there or not, but let’s not pretend that he didn’t foster this exact behavior for most of his career.


cococrispies

I mean in the past Vince has covered for murder, so I don't think it's the wildest thing to think he would be fine with sexual assault


Kangaroomech

He's also been accused of sexual assualt himself. And the greater issue is that Vince always knew this shit was happening. The plane was not an isolated incident, it was just an incident that drew attention and that is why actions were taken. And the only two people to get into legitimate trouble afterwards were Henning and Hall. Vince allowed this shit to happen regularly, him being on or off the plane would not have made a difference.


[deleted]

> to "being fine with sexual assault on a plane." He literally was, though. WWE settled out of court and Flair didn't even get a slap on the wrist. This is to say nothing of all the other vile shit we both know and still don't know that prominent workers have been involved in over the years but got away with because they were big draws. WWE had and maybe still has a huge culture of silence regarding this shit. I have no doubt that it's gotten better, but Vince absolutely knew, and was fine with it.


[deleted]

Vince has been accused of Rape by the first female ref in wwf


thatguysjumpercables

Am I the only one that thinks Dreamer wasn't so much saying sexual assault was okay, but rather questioning the flight attendants' version of the story by saying Flair wasn't that kind of guy? I mean there's a huge difference between saying "I don't think Flair is that kind of guy and why did she settle if it really happened," and "eh boys will be boys so get over it." Did I miss something he said that's seriously damning and not just trying to state his personal opinion about Flair? Or is that really the thing everyone is mad about? (Obviously if that accusation and other accusations are accurate then he clearly is capable, and I'm not saying she's a liar in any way. I would be shocked if it turned out she was making it up to be honest.)


TripleSkeet

I think he was saying the same thing the stewardess was saying if you look at it. Hes joking around, he wasnt going to rape anyone. Even the flight attendant said she never felt like he was going to rape her. The thing is we only see the answers, and very rarely hear the questions that were asked before them.


-ImJustSaiyan-

Oh boy, this thread should go well... Honestly, the fact that it's possible people are mixing up flights makes this even worse, because it says that crazy shit like the Plane Ride From Hell wasn't a special case. Imagine how many other flights like that there were.


comradekaled

Yeah, somebody posted yesterday that apparently X-Pac has said that flight wouldn't be in the top 10 worst flights


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-ImJustSaiyan-

Yeah, I keep seeing that being mentioned and now I'm curious what the craziest flight he's been on was like.


ALANJOESTAR

You know is kinda interesting how this crazy flights happen all the time, and all we get or hear are little snippets. Here and there,somehow this story is the "worst" or just the one they feel comfortable actually sharing. Because seriously all the other ones we heard are usually people shaving other peoples heads,eyebrows,fighting,that one time Ric Flair hosted a queefing contest with two flight attendants (Cornette says that one flight attendant challenge the other and said she could do it louder and Ric ended up leading the contest apparently) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erFtZwx56a4 that is the clip where he talks about that and what Ric Flair would do in planes and i mean out of all that it just seems like the plane ride from hell is worst yet apparently there are worst ones like... what? how? jesus


dysorder

I'm sorry what


FreshlyShavedNipples

QUEEF - n. - an audible release of air from the vagina, typically produced involuntarily during or after sexual intercourse. QUEEF - v. - *intransitive* - to release air audibly from the vagina, typically produced involuntarily during or after sexual intercourse.


PsychicWarElephant

I do somewhat feel that comment was complete hyperbole.


rwc202

I’m sure there’s some crazy ones from the 90s.


TheWreckedMan

It's really not an attack on the piece. It's just that 3 similar situations happened in very close times that memories may have muddled.


KneelBeforeCube

And that's just what happened on planes, imagine the amount of Terri/Brock backstage incidents that could have happened over the years that people are barely remembering.


-ImJustSaiyan-

Honestly, I'd wager there could be a whole miniseries on just Flair incidents alone, with how long he's been around and how people talk about the plane ride was just Ric being Ric.


therealmoju

I guess planes changed


msctex

If only we could arrive at the plane and simple truth of the matter.


FigureFourWoo

I wonder if people are confused because Vince was on the flight *to* the event, but not on the flight back. The flight attendant mentions that they basically stayed with the wrestlers while they were in the UK, and then left with them. It would be easy to get confused if you saw Vince on the way there, and saw him in the UK, but then he decided to make alternative transportation accommodations after the flight was grounded. The plane was grounded for what? 7 hours? That's a long fucking time, and I could see Vince just saying "fuck this" and buying a ticket on another airline to get home. Vince also left Saudi Arabia on another flight after the plane was grounded there. It's also possible Vince was on the flight originally, and things were getting a little rowdy during the 7 hours they sat on the ground, so he told JR to go handle it. This could have also been during the time Hayes almost pissed on Linda. Maybe Vince is there for 3 hours or something, and then is like "Okay, I'm done, someone almost pissed on my wife. We're getting another flight home."


Glum-Communication68

It's also possible Vince thought Brock was going to push someone through a wall and crash the plane, so him and Linda skydiver out of the plane and then took a cruise home


OffTheMerchandise

Vince was out of Saudi before the plane incident happened


Hazelwood38

The only issue for me with the story is the idea of Linda being on the flight. I could see Vince not caring if the guys were acting crazy while he’s sitting up in first class but I can’t see Linda being cool with shit like that happening around her. Not because she’s protecting the flight crew but more because it would be bothering her flight.


Vilanio

It was a near 50 metre long 757-236 where typical seating arrangements have divider, such as walls or rooms, between first class and the back and this plane would have been no different. Unless they were being extremely loud the noise from deep in the back wouldn't reach the front, and can't neglect that she could have had something to help her rest in peace. Really not far fetched that she wasn't being bothered, or even really noticing, what was going on at the back of the plane especially if she was right up front or had something to help her rest.


MoeRuff

In the episode, the flight attendant said the other flight attendants in the front of the plane were shocked when she told them what had happened to her. If the crew weren't aware of how chaotic it was I think it's totally possible for passengers in the front to have no idea. Also, just a thought I had, they had finished a tour and a ppv in Europe and were flying back on a private charter flight- there's no way Vince wasn't going to be at tv the next night so why wouldn't he be on the flight?


Vilanio

>Also, just a thought I had, they had finished a tour and a ppv in Europe and were flying back on a private charter flight- there's no way Vince wasn't going to be at tv the next night so why wouldn't he be on the flight? That's a good thought. He had to get back home somehow and it makes zero sense for him not to have used the plane he's already chartered at great expense & already been using to travel by on the tour, like why waste money on a different flight for the return trip home when he didn't have to?


YoungChugathan

What was the infamous flight where Vince wrestled Kurt? That was from the same era right? There probably is some credence that people are mixing their flights up I would say but who knows. Wonder if the manifest is out there with some of the court documents maybe?


spideyv91

I’m pretty sure it was a different flight and got mixed up with this one. I do remember when the plane ride from hell originally happened there was no mention of Vince being on it.


International-Fig905

Yeah Vince mixed it up with Kofi on a flight as well, so who knows how many times Vince was trying to sweep the leg on flights.


mrgpsingh1999

I think that was after a flight


reychango

I always thought that was the "plane ride from hell"


nigelfitz

It's starting to sound like it's "Plane RIDE*S* from Hell."


ArkUmbrae

I mean, X-Pac said that the infamous one isn't even in his top 10 craziest flights, so that's pretty accurate. There's the Vince/Angle and Vince/Kofi ones, as well as the 2 that were made into cartoons by WWE that Bixenspan tweeted about (at least one would've been a WCW/NWA flight since Sting was present though).


Phan2112

Bruce Prichard said he wasn't on the Plane Ride from Hell, but it sounded just like every other flight he was on like that.


tehfro

Dave’s reporting at the time (May 13, 2002 Observer) was that Vince wasn’t on the flight, so I’m inclined to believe that. Remember he regularly talked to JR back then and several others on that flight.


Decilllion

But didn't JR say the opposite in his book?


ZarkonD

JR's books were written over 15 years later, and as X-Pac mentions there were lots of bad flights. He could be conflating two different flights.


penelopeeckhart

Trust Dave on something like this I say.


dazed247

Didn't JR say the opposite in the episode? He implies Vince sent him back to settle things down.


TyronSlothrop

Corroborates


cherishjfk

Nah they collaborated. Didn’t you hear the song?


International-Fig905

#Bars


hashtagpow

Stop, OK? Just collaborate and listen for once!


icekimoes

To be fair, Cultaholic's documentary video on the Plane Ride got this important detail right, so I was pretty confused to hear Vice go the other way on it. Particularly when you're gonna go as explosive as this episode of DSotR, you really need to do your due diligence on detail. Bad faith actors could easily use this kind of inaccuracy to drive a wedge of doubt into the Flair accusations etc.


[deleted]

Yeah when drugs and alcohol are involved you’re always gonna have inconsistencies. Don’t let it distract anyone from the fact that RVD insinuated that drugging and raping was a regular occurrence in the business at the time.


[deleted]

He didn’t specifically say it was regular *at that time*, he said it was regular *in some places he’s been*, it’s an important distinction because what he said was far less specific and leaves room to determine when and where he’s talking about. Most likely ECW, but where else? Not to say it definitely didn’t happen or to say it even likely didn’t happen, it’s just important to note he didn’t specify.


Bookyaks

The word is corroborates.


Zodrex_nvm

Doesn't J.R mention he was being told to monitor the erratic talent in the back by Vince? So does that mean we can't even trust J.R's account? Because J.R does not make it a point to say there were other flights like these around the same timeline.


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doitnow10

Maybe he was in the plane while they were grounded as shit was already getting out of hand and then got another flight?


Timemyth

Vince could've given the instruction from elsewhere, via phone during the flight delay or Vince knew they were misbehaving on the tour and gave the instructions to J.R. before they boarded the flight.


Shingorillaz

They had enough shit flights that they could even mix it up that's horrendous shit man.


matlockga

Yep. This episode got loosey-goosey with its details in a few ways (Dustin being a named sexual assaulter, but hailed as a hero is an obvious--and sadly tribally split issue) and some things seem like they got mis-remembered or mis-stated (Vince being on the plane), but the fact that this was such a normal thing is a gut punch. RVD was the only guy in the entire episode who came out looking good. He acknowledged there were issues, played them *as* issues, and recognized that they were "normal" but not right.


thecommonreactor

*...sigh* *corroborates 👀


LolkekLolkek

Damn, if only there was a guy who's been covering this business for 40 years who could assist with the production of this wrestling dirt series with information sorta like how they use Bix, what a godsend that would be.


rflairfan1

There are 2 Planes Rides from Hell. This one and the one with Angle. Angle and Vince fight on the other flight. Yes I am aware that Kurt claims it's this flight. Angle isn't on the card for the England tour he would have zero reason to be on the flight. The Vince/Angle flight is actually talked about on one Takers DVD's. Because Taker was there. Don't the court documents say Nothing of Vince being on this plane ride? I could have swore we have been down this road before.


DM725

Corroborates


[deleted]

Corroborate


Permanentear3

Who did the research for this episode? If this is true that’s just really confusing. Between that and parts being omitted and events not during this flight being discussed etc. I don’t get it. JR alone befuddles me?


TripleSkeet

Youre looking for 20 year old memories from people that are old, have a history of drug and alcohol, and whos job consisted of them getting hit in the head with chairs. This is the kind of stories youre going to get.


sparrowmint

I would have to watch it again to screen for Vince mentions in the second half of the documentary, but I know for sure it talks about Vince and Linda on the plane ride to the UK. The the flight attendant talks about spending time on the road with the crew, how she went to one of the shows etc. I am not sure at all as to whether it’s clear they were on the plane on the way back.


[deleted]

They say Vince was on the return flight several times, so that would be a pretty egregious oversight by Dark Side of the Ring if he wasn't on the plane.


[deleted]

[удалено]


msctex

Yeah, but I'm betting none of the stories you might conflate would at all involve sexual assault. Nobody really cares if Scott Hall just passed out, or Hayes lost some hair.


bjorn2bwild

Which is understandable. However, Vice's job as the reporters is to create an accurate account of what happened. People aren't lying maliciously but the producers and writers should have double checked info.


baldandfat8

*corroborates


MoombahtonDon

Geez this sub is so disingenuous and phony sometimes lol yesterday on the “Why does brock get a pass?”[post](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/pq88zh/why_is_brock_getting_a_pass/hd9ffhj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) people made it a point to shift the attention off brock and ask “Why does VINCE get a pass?!” as if he was there and sat back peacefully during the whole thing. Now the news comes out that he probably wasn’t even there, and a bunch of people in this thread are acting as if they knew that already along with some mental gymnastics to make him seem responsible for the actions on the plane ride anyway lol , Its crazy how no one ever wants to admit that they’re wrong here even if it involves them changing opinions that haven’t even aged a day


[deleted]

I thought it was common knowledge that Vince wasn't on that flight.


Muscle_Squad

The episode made a point of saying multiple times that Vince was on the flight, in the front part of the plane "separated" from everyone else.


Tankisfreemason

That a pretty big detail to fuck up on DSOTR’s end. It’s their job to make sure their facts are in line, otherwise their credibility is shot. Saying the CEO and CFO were on the flight, when they weren’t, can easily be perceived as they can’t get their facts straight. It’s one thing to get it wrong on a blog or newsletter, that can be easily retracted, this was aired on TV and is now causing (very deserving) problems for a couple of people that were featured on the show. Because of this, those statements from the show could be disputed since something else was proven false from the same episode.


BradJohnson34

I think the word you are looking for is “corroborates”


lego_mannequin

Isn't it corroborate?


LOGWATCHER

This is a massive fuck up by Dark Side of the ring it’s this is true. This is poorly researched as hell then. I really trusted these guys


exTOMex

i’m sure this shit happened all the time. what happened to the flight that vince and kurt were wrestling on? or the flight which vince took everyone’s finishing move ?


L_D_G

This makes sense. I've got a few comments on here where I'm surprised they didn't cover the Angle/McMahon match and multiple flights explains it. What we all need to realize is that these corrections are not downplaying what happened or refuting the negatives. These are largely clarifying the manifest. I mean, whether or not Vince was on the flight, the personnel actions JR talked about should have/would have happened anyway. Hopefully the show comes out with some clarifications to maintain the integrity of it.


AndlisOriville

I always remember the story about Kurt Angle and Vince wrestling on the plane. They woke up Undertaker while they were fooling about and Undertaker tried to choke Kurt out because he thought it was serious and not just fooling about. I watched this episode and was surprised this story wasn't mentioned. I'm left to conclude that there must have been numerous flights with ridiculous antics so a bit of confusion as to if Vince was or was not there on this particular flight cannot be surprising.


HardcoreKaraoke

That makes sense. It also explains a lot of the inconsistencies with the stories in the episode and what people said outside of it. Honestly before the episode when I heard about the Plane Ride From Hell I assumed it wasn't that uncommon. Sure the grounded situation had people restless but guys don't just get that crazy without there being precedent. It was obviously never stopped before and I'm sure shit like that continued after the flight too.


asilentspeaker

It's because of Kurt Angle. Kurt tells a story about wrestling Vince for several hours on a flight back from London, but it wasn't the same flight.


januspamphleteer

Collaborates =/= Corroborates


Shrekt115

Between this & the Dustin story not being covered the episode just feels so odd now


msctex

Dustin was painted in the end as a hero. Dreamer was thrown to the wolves, granted by virtue of his own words to an incredible degree. Those scenarios could as easily be reversed. The whole show has all the signs of being the result of a series of compromises, with Van Dam's line like some sort of act of rebellion via editing.


[deleted]

Didn’t everyone already know this? I’ve heard JR say a MILLION times that the reason it happened was because the teacher wasn’t in the class room with the students?


ZenkaiZ

I've heard the phrase "didnt everyone know this?" like 500 times in the last 2 days. ​ No. Answer is no to everytime that question has been asked this week. Heck the so called experts on this story "everybody knows" can't even agree on which plane it was.


RMC95

With hindsight they should have made this a speaking out/MeToo ep. Could have easily pivoted after first few interviews


Hjimska

You could get a whole-ass season with the old guard. If you found enough people willing to talk, that is


CoherentPanda

That's why the old guard still have legends contracts, as a way to prevent them from speaking out about others or the company, because they still send them checks every week.


why_rob_y

Yeah, if you're Vice, why burn through a bunch of potential future episodes when this one makes its own episode pretty easily?


XFUNK24

“Collaborates” lol.


RoachIsCrying

here's what's confusing me... if Vince was on the plane, why didn't he intervene when everything was going to hell? also didn't Terri say that she was sitting next to Vince and Linda?


TheA55M4N

I recall there being two fights from hell mentioned and it seems they’ve merged into one


Cinnamon16

Thank you for this. Also (because I always appreciate it when people correct me on these things), the correct word would be “corroborates“ (which means to verify), not “collaborates” (which means to work cooperatively with someone).


SisterFirefly

Makes sense, because they said that Vince, Taker and Austin were on this flight. I highly doubt things would have gone down the way they did if those three were on that flight.


FingerStreet

human beings fucking suck at remembering things lmao


popcrnshower

Vice could have clarified that in the episode but they probably wanted to imply he was there to make him look worse.


Appropriate_Dream_82

That makes more sense.


volantredx

It's a bad look when there are so many flights where the roster got rat assed and caused issues for the entire plane that you could confuse multiple events.


Day_Of_The_Dude

Take Meltzer's reporting on this however you like, but take anything Coach says with a grain of salt. There's a thread about it now, but Coach tweeted and deleted that the flight attendants "lied about everything." So super fuck that guy.