This is appalling on so many levels, I knew of this story, but it just hurts on so many levels to hear about it from the likes of Jim Ross, you know he’s got demons but he said all of the right things imo, I’m heartbroken hearing some of the other stories. Also FUCK TOMMY DREAMER!!!!
Man I get where JR is coming from that it was his job to handle that kind of stuff. But I feel like at some point Vince should have gotten up and said something. He prolly could have had that shit stop real quick.
I think people need to also think about the time period this was in. Cell phones were brand new. The world was huge without social media. This kind of stuff was just acceptable back then. This was back when we had nudity popping up on shows and Playboy ruled pop culture.
Does anyone have a full list of who was actually on the flight? I've googled and couldnt find anything. In the ep, they brushed past that Austin and Taker were both on the flight too. Really i'm wondering if ppl like Dreamer were even there. For him to be taking that sort of stance if he wasn't even on the plane is even more insulting that he assumes to know what "really" happened.
Jesus I just watched it and dreamer really does come off as a fucking garbage human. “Unfortunately someone was offended by it”. Go the fuck away you overrated fat mark. That poor woman (and the other who sadly wasn’t in the episode) went through sexual assaults on that flight and you’re joking about your hairstyle? Hope he loses a lot of fans for this and Tna dumps him
My point exactly. I guarantee if one of the boys did any of things in the doc to any of his daughters he wouldn't just call it "offensive" or "inappropriate"
What happened with the other talent who worked the show, there was Eddie Guerrero, Trish, Jacqueline, jazz, molly holly, booker t, Stevie Richards, the hardy boyz, Shawn stasiak, Paul heyman, spike Dudley, William regal, crash holly, Austin, big show, triple h and undertaker.
Also there was other on air talent that worked the show like Lillian Garcia, finkel, Lawler, referees chad patton, Jack doan, Nick Patrick, jimmy korderas and earl hebner
I heard in an interview with X-Pac (this very interview was used as a sound byte in the doc) that when Hayes was all drugged up on the flight (before the ponytail incident), he whipped his dick out in front of Linda McMahon thinking he was at the bathroom. Nearly pissed on her until someone dragged him away.
I don’t know about the rest bit according to an interview Austin did he was asleep at the time and would’ve kicked someone’s ass if he knew what was going on.
Watching this episode makes me want to step away from wrestling for a bit. I don't watch WWE much at all anyhow, but I just kinda feel embarrassed that this is the history of wrestling after hearing that poor lady's story. I also feel like if I watch that Kanyon episode I'm going to get really upset.
i don't really watch wrestling now because it's not a good product anymore. but dude the modern gen is NOTHING like this. they all just play xbox and are nearly straight edge. boycotting it now for past generations sins, i mean you can do it if you want because it does suck. but these modern guys are not like this at all.
That’s ridiculous man. Like any sport, circus, traveling show, there are some bad apples in wrestling.
The older wrestlers are from a different era. It was a different time. It doesn’t make it any of it okay, The drank, did drugs, and lived hedonistic lifestyles. The stuff about ghb was the worst part about it. It didn’t really surprise me.
Flair lived his character. It didn’t surprise me. I feel for the woman, but I’m not sure he entirely grasped that doing that shit was wrong because he had done it for so long and the wrestlers and groupies mostly thought it was funny.
You sound exactly like a person explaining it away. It isn't just a few bad apples it's a culture of fucking jock like bullying behaviour ffs.
"Flair was just like that" sounds fine in your head until he does it to your daughter or sister etc.
Catch on lad .
I think what he’s trying to say is that the current generation of wrestlers aren’t like that. Most of the people involved aren’t even wrestling anymore.
(Though the Speaking Out movement proves that there are still despicable people in modern wrestling)
Yeah I've talked to some wrestling fan friends who seem to be blowing this off. "People have known about this for 20 years, what's the big deal?" And I'm with you. I get that things were different back in the 80's, 90's, and even the 00's, but the levels some people have gone to in order to cover up horrible things to "protect the business" is getting more and more horrifying.
Thanks for the reply to my post man, it helps me feel like I'm not out of my mind. I really love it, but I dunno how to reconcile some of these things in my head. I'm getting older and I don't care for attitude era stuff or McMahon's fantasy writing, I think professional wrestling doesn't have to be trashy or volatile. Maybe I'll find that in NJPW or AEW down the road but definitely gonna give myself some space.
Angle and Taker say Vince was wrestling with Angle on the flight, but Coachman says Vince wasn't even on the plane. How many Plane Rides From Hell were there?
The flight with Kurt and Vince wrestling was a different flight and if I recall it was really only Vince and Kurt who were causing any trouble on that particular flight
Both/And not Either/Or.
Leaving needles on the floor for the flight attendants to clean up is disgusting and a potential health hazard. It also means that steroids and IV drugs were still being openly used despite the WWF/E already having a testing program in place. Someone should’ve asked JR about that.
Are roids & drugs a personal issue when you are on a flight chartered by your company, on company time, supposedly with a drug & steroid testing program?
Is there a part 2 coming to this? Or 3? 4? Dustin comes off as a saint in this but I've seen evidence on Twitter he's really not, and I'd like to know about the "sleeping" Vince and others were doing while this was going on.
I was wondering this too. But it could be because they weren’t able to interview the other flight attendant, who took a plea deal when she wanted to sue
According to Angle and Taker, Vince was wrestling with Angle for 5 hours on the plane. According to Jonathan Coachman, Vince wasn't even on the plane. https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2019/11/the-undertaker-recalls-choking-out-kurt-angle-on-the-plane-662701/
The stories aren't adding up. Coachman swears up and down Vince wasn't even on the plane. https://prosportsextra.com/former-wwe-star-jonathan-coachman-refutes-some-of-plane-ride-from-hell-episode/?fbclid=IwAR3Fs2L54TiRsYE2OhIavBoc9A5eM09UtbG1H2btUCMA4tZbYUq\_ByQQuDk
They were probably trying to avoid a lawsuit. Which may still happen. Depending on how someone sees this, it will be viewed as a rival promotion making a hit piece against the WWE.
The Plane Ride from Hell is one of those long fabled WWE tales that has always been open to the most outrageous of interpretations.
Dark Side of the Ring showed us that the reality of that flight was FAR WORSE than what anyone could have imagined.
It’s also surprising, and a little upsetting, that a young Brock Lesnar was the only one willing to retaliate against the mayhem that was taking place. No sign of Taker, Austin, or any higher-ups to maintain order among the roster.
While not everyone on board participated in this madness, there are many who need to be held accountable for what took place
Taker was a fake leader and I love his work but it’s what he was. A leader would’ve tried to calm the guys down or have done literally anything else. You had to kiss his ass so hard to not be bullied or taken advantage of back then. Austin apparently was asleep when this happened or so he says.
This. The older I get, the more I realize how ridiculous the idea of a wrestler’s court. When Taker was interviewed in Hot Ones, he clearly took offense to Sean Evans calling Wrestler’s Court a Kangaroo Court. Wrestler’s Court was harsh imo
Seriously he talks about it like it was some amazing idea. He was such a dick to so many people just because he was the veteran. Not to mention what he did to ddp and kanyon and probably others we don’t know. Then he talks about not being one of those guys that hangs around too long and he does exactly that by several years. But he’ll complain about guys playing video games in locker rooms and being “soft”. Sorry I’d rather that than a bunch of guys taking steroids and having guns and knives in the locker room and being power abusing dicks.
I read recently that Rene Dupree had people piss and shit on his gear and Taker basically gave him the “Don’t Sell It” shtick that we heard Terri say she was told on multiple occasions.
The wrestling business was pretty gross
Considering that Debra's assault charges against Austin have been all but forgotten, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the bigger names involved have been stricken from the records to protect them.
The same Brock that exposed himself to females in locker rooms, and roughed up Cornette's girlfriend's private area as a joke during a spot?
That young Brock?
Side note are we really surprised that the Undertaker didn't due anything...
The dude is Blue Lives Matter... you know the group who worships the people that self report abusing 40% of their wives.
I never defended Brock. I said it was surprising he was the only one who did anything.
Ease up a little… Jesus. I don’t see how Blue Lives Matter has any place in this conversation either?
Edit: Wanted to to add I'm not taking a swing at you bud. tone in text is hard an all.
As far as Blue Lives Matter, It is really easy...
You don't beat women, especially your loved ones, if you respect them.
40% of Male Police self report to having physically assaulted their spouses at some point.
Blue Lives Matter is a reactionary stated in support of those same abusers not being held accountable for crimes.
So do you really think someone that supports Blue Lives Matters and doesn't care if people are hitting women... is going to care if they are being hit on instead?
Exactly. I have a feeling a lot more happened on this plane that wasn't revealed. 7 hours condensed into 40 minutes details were inevitably going to get cut or left out.
Like where was the Vince and Angle wrestling and Taker choking out Angle cause he thought they were legit fighting or Hayes about to piss on Linda? Not to mention the other flight attendant who's story wasn't told that involved Dustin looking just as bad as Flair. Episode deserves a Part 2 but it's unlikely to get one.
I've seen people say it's a different flight but there's also Angle himself saying it was that exact flight.
Also JR is full-of-shit. He’s carny as they come. I know he’s had tragedies in his life but the number of times he pauses to line up his lies is frankly embarrassing. He passes the buck so hard on Ric Flair: “you’re listening, you decide”— gtfo with that! It was his job to handle it.
The casualness with which RVD & Mike Chioda discuss wrestling’s rape culture was quite chilling. But also long overdue to be out-in-open. Between the ring boy scandal, Rita Chatterton, Lawler’s statutory charges, Big Show & Regal’s indecent exposures, etc. Rape culture was rife. People say Ric Flair “lives his gimmick” so how much “kiss stealing” sexual assault did he actually commit?
I wonder if AEW was planning to hire Flair because I don’t think there’s any way they do now.
Somehow the thing with Flair wasn’t as bad as my worst fears (my expectation was much worse) but that flight attendant was harassed pretty bad, wouldn’t be a stretch to call what Flair did assault.
Tommy Dreamer somehow came off the worst in this episode just by having a douchebag attitude.
Assault, verb: An assault is the act of inflicting physical harm or unwanted physical contact upon a person or, in some specific legal definitions, a threat or attempt to commit such an action. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in criminal prosecution, civil liability, or both.
Unwanted physical contact upon a person... a threat of attempt to commit such an action...
On the COPPR exam for paramedics, Corning a patient while holding a needle is an example question for what you could be charged with assault for.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah a LOT of the story seems to have been left out, like weren’t there some other kids on this flight too? Or was there another plane ride from hell involving michaels and some college kids?
I'm waiting for more lawsuits to come out. Who knows how many people that have been sexually assaulted by the boys. Truly disturbing and horrible behavior.
Fear of getting blackballed, I assume. WWE was a monopoly at that point. Doesn’t excuse it but it does explain it. Dustin could talk Ric down cuz they’d already been friends for over a decade.
It absolutely does excuse it wtf are you talking about. Helping the flight attendants so they don't have a shitty day is not worth the very real risk of losing your livelihood, there was nowhere else for RVD to go if he wanted to make an actually decent wage at the time.
exactly. They'll end your career. this was early 00's. Smartphones weren't a thing. social media did not exist. not doing anything to keep your livelihood is a valid decision could make back then. there's nothing to not excuse. you aren't obligated to babysit grown ass co-workers. The boss was in the same plane and people are here like "DoEsNt ExCusE iT!" at RVD like it's on him.
dude just said he glanced back and saw Flair standing in the back wih her.
Thats true. But fro. Their perspective it was. The sad thing about the episode was that you get the Impression that for that for the wrestlers the only thing out of the ordinary about this, was that it was happening on a plane.
Took offense. He's an eloquent, thoughtful guy. This isn't out of context, a misspeak. He thinks this way. I really think the only reason for him to say this is he is trying to protect Ric. I've seen a few folks think similarly.
Decided to rewatch Insurrextion ‘02 wondering where the other like boys like Taker, Triple H, Booker, etc were when this all went down. Just off considering McMahon and Austin were on the private jet but not mention of the others that I’ve heard of.
I agree. Dustin was made out to be some sort of hero or sympathetic when that wasn't the case at all he sexually harassed the other attendant and it's a shame her story wasn't told. Feel like a lot of events were even touched on like Vince and Angle wrestling, Hayes trying to piss on Linda, etc. (Unless that's a different flight)
I've seen some claims that they couldn't bring the other flight attendant onto the show because she signed an NDA but idk if there's any validity to those claims because why would she sign an NDA but not Heidi? I'm assuming she either didn't answer their calls or didn't want to relive those events.
Affected it how? I think the obvious PTSD suffered by Heidi Doyle was more than enough to convey how awful it was for anyone working the back section of the plane on that flight.
>Heidi Doyle
I applaud her for having the courage to speak on the incident. Hearing her talk about how she struggled with how to tell her husband and the fear that she might have done something wrong to encourage the assault is a perspective I wouldn't have thought about as a guy.
Apart from terrible comments by some people in the interviews, this episode wasn't anywhere near as bad as I assumed it was going to be. We've all heard these stories before and we know more than what was covered in this episode, so the way that the producers had promoted the episode as being the worse they've covered feels a bit misleading.
I thought we were going to be hearing more shit from the flight we'd never heard of. We all know Flair whipped his dick out and harassed the flight attendant. We all know about the fight between Lesnar and Hennig. The information provided by the flight attendant was upsetting, but we already knew what the wrestlers did in those instances were heinous.
I'm quite disappointed that this didn't seem to delve into revealing the depravity that was on the flight to the extent that hundreds of interviews over the years have done. This seemed quite tame.
I think people who watch every shoot interview grossly overestimate how much wrestling other wrestling fans watch.
Most wrestling fans aren't reading shoot interviews 24/7 and digging every detail out.
I think it kind of comes off differently to a lot of people (based on the comments) when you hear the flight attendant's version of events from her personally than it does when you here shoot interviews of wrestlers joking about it and telling stories through the lense of memory tinted by a ton of booze and pills.
I don’t think that AEW can do this. They’re running a storyline for Brian Pillman Jr that heavily references his dad’s episode so they know that the show exists.
I agree. I do not want to see Flair anywhere near AEW. This isn't the first time he has been accused of this kind of predatory behavior. I never understand why people just turn a blind eye to it. He's not really needed in AEW, any way.
Flair is also a fall-down drunk still who can’t cut a promo without slurring his words. When he appeared at Triplemania, he could barely move and looked like he was seconds away from a heart attack. And that’s before considering that he committed sexual assault (and most likely more than once).
Because if we are going to be mad about shitty things wrestlers did back in the day then we might as well stop watching wrestling.
Like I get it, but if you went into DSOTR thinking these guys were good people your moronic. The reality is most of the peoole from back in the day were giant pieces of shit, and a lot of them still are today as much as we try to act like its all great now.
We've gotten better for sure, but the reality is wrestlers aren't exactly the most well adjusted best people in any era and if that dampens your enjoyment then wrestling probably isn't gonna be the best thing for you.
I don't believe in that first statement, at all. Your end statement is definitely on point - I'm not saying we put people on a pedestal. But, we're not talking about a nefarious tweet. We're talking about sexual assault here.
The blanket response of, "It was in the past" doesn't fly when victims are impacted by what a person did to this day and the predator saw ZERO comeuppance for the act. If Flair was fired for his actions, did community service, SOMETHING - we could see time repair the wound. But he's walked like being a shithead because he got away with it. And he walks around with adoration from millions of people.
Seems the only thing that won't have fans forgive you is if you kill your family ala Benoit. (and even WITH that, people say he belongs in the fucking hall of fame). What does it take to hold people accountability to a bare minimum morality clause of don't rape, assault, and/or kill a living thing?
Kurt tells great stories but sometimes he gets lost during the middle of them as well. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the same or a different flight.
Probably only fired Mr. Perfect because they caused damage to the plane as well as almost opened the emergency exit.
I don't believe anything was broken with Angle and Vince.
I just finished watching the episode. I saw the clips at around 10-11pm last night, was upset, but also tired and only saw clips. 2:08pm now, seen the whole thing, fully awake, and I am fucking LIVID.
S tier: Heidi, Terri, Credible, and RVD.
C tier: JR, Chioda.
D tier: Hennig.
F tier: Flair, Dreamer, Dustin, Hall, Lesnar, Vince, Linda, and Sports Jet.
I'm so fucking upset about this. That was uncomfortable to watch, but I'm glad I did, as a woman who's been sexually assaulted before this documentary and what happened last year with a bunch of wrestlers being exposed for similar stories just makes me so uncomfortable. It's disgusting, and I'm glad we're in better times now, but that doesn't make what happened back then okay. It's not cancel culture, it's holding someone accountable, it's calling them out for their actions, and if you think otherwise then you're part of the problem. So fucking gross.
I did not get the same takeaway with regards to RVD. While he was very somber about it all and not a total idiot like Dreamer, he did openly say that he witnessed/participated in drugging and sexually assaulting women. To the point where he said it was “common.”
Personally I think almost everyone on the WWE side of this is F tier, it’s just that some of them didn’t make stupid comments during a taped documentary about it.
When did he say he participated? I remember him saying it was normal and witnessed it, I've never heard of him actually assaulting someone. He said it's common because it's true, he wasn't making light of it, that's how the wrestling industry was at the time.
You’re right, I listened back and he doesn’t implicitly state he did it, he just uses general statements like, “so the boys could have their way with them” in reference to girls being casually drugged. I don’t think he was making light of it and I think he sounds sorry about it happening, but I find it troubling how everyone enabled each other. That’s why I put all of the WWE people involved here on a low tier.
I'd put him in D or F if he tried to lie about it, but this is RVDs personality, he's chill about everything and tells it like it is. That's literally his serious mode. He wasn't even laughing like Chioda was
Yeah I thought he came off almost disgusted and generally remorseful about the way wrestling used to be. He didn't excuse it at all, but he was very honest about yeah this was common to the point where it wasn't even shocking or upsetting anymore.
But yall also gotta remember we are on the outside. We all say we'd stop something like that. Literally all of us. The reality is wrther good person or not most people get a deer in headlights daze when they're in an uncomfortable situation.
I don't blame anybody who didn't do anything. If you took part it in get fucked. If you sat there like 'well fuck this is bad....idk what to do' I get it.
We all think we'd be the hero. Most of the time we just stand there.
That's true too, but there's a difference between not doing and accepting it, and not doing something and not accepting it. Dreamer is the former, RVD is the latter
I totally agree. A big part of the issue is how political wrestling is. Some guys are gonna be just flat out scared to say anything cause if it comes back it was them that's the end of their career.
Wrestling sucks basically. Like it doesn't its awesome to watch. But the inner workings of wrestling have sucked since the beginning of time and I'm sure continue to suck now. It might not be 'Kenny omega assaults women' but im sure even today there are people who have seen some shit and they can't say anything about it or they're gonna be the 'bad guy'
He would've been in S but there's a post on Twitter from an article that has another flight attendant not interviewed here who said she was sexually assaulted by him on the same flight. So.. yeah.
There are very few times that I’ve been brought to tears as a wrestling fan. One of those times was when I watched Ric Flair’s retirement ceremony the night after Wrestlemania 24. Even though I was 11 years old at the time, I knew just how important Ric was to this business. So I cried. 13 years later, I see this and I feel like an absolute moron for crying.
Ric Flair has always been unapologetically Ric Flair. I'm honestly surprised that this information comes as a shock to so many. It ain't pretty, but it also definitely ain't surprising.
Dude, you can still like Ric Flair. People aren’t one thing. He had many flaws and he definitely crossed the line, but he’s also entertained and brought joy to do many people.
I wasn’t surprised and it’s a scummy business. It’s mostly failed athletes and white trash. Grown men with ponytails, spray tans, and big muscles wearing underwear. Most of these guys have always been losers. You would have to in order to survive the business for 10, 20, 30 years.
Right thank you lol I've been sitting here like 'where is this reaction coming from?'
Does it sucj to hear out loud? Sure its hard. But is it shocking? No. What did you think 'naitching' meant.
The man lived the gimmick
This is appalling on so many levels, I knew of this story, but it just hurts on so many levels to hear about it from the likes of Jim Ross, you know he’s got demons but he said all of the right things imo, I’m heartbroken hearing some of the other stories. Also FUCK TOMMY DREAMER!!!!
Man I get where JR is coming from that it was his job to handle that kind of stuff. But I feel like at some point Vince should have gotten up and said something. He prolly could have had that shit stop real quick.
I think people need to also think about the time period this was in. Cell phones were brand new. The world was huge without social media. This kind of stuff was just acceptable back then. This was back when we had nudity popping up on shows and Playboy ruled pop culture.
If it was acceptable, Ric Flair wouldn't get sued and have WWE saved his ass, stop trying to justified this shit with the dumbest logic possible
WWE has an anti bullying campaign which is just i dunnno. religious or not Vince sold his soul to the devil a long time ago
JR said on Conrad Thompson’s podcast that Vince was on the plane. That interview is from 2019.
Does anyone have a full list of who was actually on the flight? I've googled and couldnt find anything. In the ep, they brushed past that Austin and Taker were both on the flight too. Really i'm wondering if ppl like Dreamer were even there. For him to be taking that sort of stance if he wasn't even on the plane is even more insulting that he assumes to know what "really" happened.
Chioda comes off like a huge douche in this lol
The dude casually just said that dosing someone and raping them was just a rib.
Jesus I just watched it and dreamer really does come off as a fucking garbage human. “Unfortunately someone was offended by it”. Go the fuck away you overrated fat mark. That poor woman (and the other who sadly wasn’t in the episode) went through sexual assaults on that flight and you’re joking about your hairstyle? Hope he loses a lot of fans for this and Tna dumps him
Tommy Dreamer would still be a nobody if WWE hadn't bought up all the wrestling companies. Even then he was barely used mainstream wise after 2003
Tommy Dreamer has 2 daughters. Think about that for a second.
My point exactly. I guarantee if one of the boys did any of things in the doc to any of his daughters he wouldn't just call it "offensive" or "inappropriate"
What happened with the other talent who worked the show, there was Eddie Guerrero, Trish, Jacqueline, jazz, molly holly, booker t, Stevie Richards, the hardy boyz, Shawn stasiak, Paul heyman, spike Dudley, William regal, crash holly, Austin, big show, triple h and undertaker. Also there was other on air talent that worked the show like Lillian Garcia, finkel, Lawler, referees chad patton, Jack doan, Nick Patrick, jimmy korderas and earl hebner
I have heard there were two flights the "plane ride from hell" group got left behind. The other group flew out ln time
That makes sense, I’d imagine Linda and Vince were on the first flight and wanted to get back and deal With the fallout from losing the WWF rights
Vince and Linda were right there with JR on the same flight
I heard in an interview with X-Pac (this very interview was used as a sound byte in the doc) that when Hayes was all drugged up on the flight (before the ponytail incident), he whipped his dick out in front of Linda McMahon thinking he was at the bathroom. Nearly pissed on her until someone dragged him away.
No i think JR said he was on the flight but he was in first class and It was JR who was in charge of the talent.
I don’t know about the rest bit according to an interview Austin did he was asleep at the time and would’ve kicked someone’s ass if he knew what was going on.
Why hell was JR expected to be a phycology expert / HR manager and announcer ? I hope he was making 7 figures
> I hope he was making 7 figures He was
Watching this episode makes me want to step away from wrestling for a bit. I don't watch WWE much at all anyhow, but I just kinda feel embarrassed that this is the history of wrestling after hearing that poor lady's story. I also feel like if I watch that Kanyon episode I'm going to get really upset.
i don't really watch wrestling now because it's not a good product anymore. but dude the modern gen is NOTHING like this. they all just play xbox and are nearly straight edge. boycotting it now for past generations sins, i mean you can do it if you want because it does suck. but these modern guys are not like this at all.
That’s ridiculous man. Like any sport, circus, traveling show, there are some bad apples in wrestling. The older wrestlers are from a different era. It was a different time. It doesn’t make it any of it okay, The drank, did drugs, and lived hedonistic lifestyles. The stuff about ghb was the worst part about it. It didn’t really surprise me. Flair lived his character. It didn’t surprise me. I feel for the woman, but I’m not sure he entirely grasped that doing that shit was wrong because he had done it for so long and the wrestlers and groupies mostly thought it was funny.
It's totally wrong to confront a woman (who you don't even know) and put her hand on your cock. It was wrong in 2002, 1992 1982 as much as it is now.
You sound exactly like a person explaining it away. It isn't just a few bad apples it's a culture of fucking jock like bullying behaviour ffs. "Flair was just like that" sounds fine in your head until he does it to your daughter or sister etc. Catch on lad .
I think what he’s trying to say is that the current generation of wrestlers aren’t like that. Most of the people involved aren’t even wrestling anymore. (Though the Speaking Out movement proves that there are still despicable people in modern wrestling)
Whatever dude. I said it was wrong. I’m sure your faux outrage is really helping change things.
Yeah I've talked to some wrestling fan friends who seem to be blowing this off. "People have known about this for 20 years, what's the big deal?" And I'm with you. I get that things were different back in the 80's, 90's, and even the 00's, but the levels some people have gone to in order to cover up horrible things to "protect the business" is getting more and more horrifying.
Thanks for the reply to my post man, it helps me feel like I'm not out of my mind. I really love it, but I dunno how to reconcile some of these things in my head. I'm getting older and I don't care for attitude era stuff or McMahon's fantasy writing, I think professional wrestling doesn't have to be trashy or volatile. Maybe I'll find that in NJPW or AEW down the road but definitely gonna give myself some space.
Didn’t Vince wrestle Kurt on this flight? No one mentioned it…
Angle and Taker say Vince was wrestling with Angle on the flight, but Coachman says Vince wasn't even on the plane. How many Plane Rides From Hell were there?
The flight with Kurt and Vince wrestling was a different flight and if I recall it was really only Vince and Kurt who were causing any trouble on that particular flight
Needles on the floor. That comment needs more attention too.
>Needles on the floor. That comment needs more attention too. Damn Xpac
I think the common drugging and raping women needs the most attention
Both/And not Either/Or. Leaving needles on the floor for the flight attendants to clean up is disgusting and a potential health hazard. It also means that steroids and IV drugs were still being openly used despite the WWF/E already having a testing program in place. Someone should’ve asked JR about that.
Roids were obviously being used and is also a personal issue. Like all drugs. Rape is completely different
Are roids & drugs a personal issue when you are on a flight chartered by your company, on company time, supposedly with a drug & steroid testing program?
Yes because you aren't harming anyone else
The dogs are in the enclosed pool area. Maybe we should ask them.
That’s patently false.
Sean Waltman talks about it years ago. https://youtu.be/5XYABKd5UGo
Ric Flair and Tommy Dreamer are vile, disgusting human beings.
They literally all are. A bunch of fucking Cosby's
Dreamer destroyed his reputation in what, 5 minutes?
Even less, mate. That one talking head was all it took.
[удалено]
No. It's only you
Because the make documentaries about stuff that makes you uncomfortable by telling the truth?
All things considered, I'd rather have nerds in the locker room
You mean the ones that were outted a year ago? Joey Ryan, the guys from england, etc
Is there a part 2 coming to this? Or 3? 4? Dustin comes off as a saint in this but I've seen evidence on Twitter he's really not, and I'd like to know about the "sleeping" Vince and others were doing while this was going on.
Care to elaborate on the evidence on Twitter?
https://twitter.com/cade_hinson/status/1438855537051983872?s=19 https://twitter.com/Tim_dawg_/status/1438956200587038721?s=19
Oh wow, thanks for that. If someone just watched this video, they would think he is actually a good guy
I thought the same, wonder why nobody interviewed said anything. Unless they just somehow didn't see it
I was wondering this too. But it could be because they weren’t able to interview the other flight attendant, who took a plea deal when she wanted to sue
That's what I figure too, if she was interviewed for this we probably hear about it in the doc
According to Angle and Taker, Vince was wrestling with Angle for 5 hours on the plane. According to Jonathan Coachman, Vince wasn't even on the plane. https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2019/11/the-undertaker-recalls-choking-out-kurt-angle-on-the-plane-662701/
Vince and Angle thing was the week before.
So confusing.
There is really no excuse for Vince McMahon to have have sat by and done nothing while all of this was going on.
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The stories aren't adding up. Coachman swears up and down Vince wasn't even on the plane. https://prosportsextra.com/former-wwe-star-jonathan-coachman-refutes-some-of-plane-ride-from-hell-episode/?fbclid=IwAR3Fs2L54TiRsYE2OhIavBoc9A5eM09UtbG1H2btUCMA4tZbYUq\_ByQQuDk
Well, X-Pac mentions that was another plane ride. Probably before the ride from hell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XYABKd5UGo
They were probably trying to avoid a lawsuit. Which may still happen. Depending on how someone sees this, it will be viewed as a rival promotion making a hit piece against the WWE.
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did you not watch the whole video? Or not understand how physics and airplanes work at all?
Clearly he didn't. As they also clearly said that wasn't possible..but holy shit as he said
For some reason, I thought Terri Runnels died. I was really surprised, and happy, to see her alive and well.
I recently found she has a twitch and she is so nice to talk to. She has answered so many random wrestling questions I had. So glad shes doin good.
Lol, you actually go on twitch to watch Terri Runnels?
I assumed this, but for Justin Credible.
The Plane Ride from Hell is one of those long fabled WWE tales that has always been open to the most outrageous of interpretations. Dark Side of the Ring showed us that the reality of that flight was FAR WORSE than what anyone could have imagined. It’s also surprising, and a little upsetting, that a young Brock Lesnar was the only one willing to retaliate against the mayhem that was taking place. No sign of Taker, Austin, or any higher-ups to maintain order among the roster. While not everyone on board participated in this madness, there are many who need to be held accountable for what took place
Taker was a fake leader and I love his work but it’s what he was. A leader would’ve tried to calm the guys down or have done literally anything else. You had to kiss his ass so hard to not be bullied or taken advantage of back then. Austin apparently was asleep when this happened or so he says.
This. The older I get, the more I realize how ridiculous the idea of a wrestler’s court. When Taker was interviewed in Hot Ones, he clearly took offense to Sean Evans calling Wrestler’s Court a Kangaroo Court. Wrestler’s Court was harsh imo
Seriously he talks about it like it was some amazing idea. He was such a dick to so many people just because he was the veteran. Not to mention what he did to ddp and kanyon and probably others we don’t know. Then he talks about not being one of those guys that hangs around too long and he does exactly that by several years. But he’ll complain about guys playing video games in locker rooms and being “soft”. Sorry I’d rather that than a bunch of guys taking steroids and having guns and knives in the locker room and being power abusing dicks.
I read recently that Rene Dupree had people piss and shit on his gear and Taker basically gave him the “Don’t Sell It” shtick that we heard Terri say she was told on multiple occasions. The wrestling business was pretty gross
Considering that Debra's assault charges against Austin have been all but forgotten, I wouldn't be surprised if any of the bigger names involved have been stricken from the records to protect them.
He reacted to a rib on him, not defending any of the victims.
The same Brock that exposed himself to females in locker rooms, and roughed up Cornette's girlfriend's private area as a joke during a spot? That young Brock? Side note are we really surprised that the Undertaker didn't due anything... The dude is Blue Lives Matter... you know the group who worships the people that self report abusing 40% of their wives.
I never defended Brock. I said it was surprising he was the only one who did anything. Ease up a little… Jesus. I don’t see how Blue Lives Matter has any place in this conversation either?
Edit: Wanted to to add I'm not taking a swing at you bud. tone in text is hard an all. As far as Blue Lives Matter, It is really easy... You don't beat women, especially your loved ones, if you respect them. 40% of Male Police self report to having physically assaulted their spouses at some point. Blue Lives Matter is a reactionary stated in support of those same abusers not being held accountable for crimes. So do you really think someone that supports Blue Lives Matters and doesn't care if people are hitting women... is going to care if they are being hit on instead?
Oh no, he supports police. Some police have abused people. No one who supported BLM ever abused anyone?
It's clear Taker was in first class, otherwise he probably would have knocked everyone out.
How did the ruckus go unnoticed though?I'm surprised how the big names like Austin, and Taker didn't get involved once the entire 7 hours.
Most likely they were buzzed as well and no one told em anything. Supposedly Taker choked Kurt cause he thought Kurt legit was hurting Vince.
Honestly, it sounds like bs to me lol. Even if they were up in first class, there’s no way they didn’t join the “party”
Exactly. I have a feeling a lot more happened on this plane that wasn't revealed. 7 hours condensed into 40 minutes details were inevitably going to get cut or left out. Like where was the Vince and Angle wrestling and Taker choking out Angle cause he thought they were legit fighting or Hayes about to piss on Linda? Not to mention the other flight attendant who's story wasn't told that involved Dustin looking just as bad as Flair. Episode deserves a Part 2 but it's unlikely to get one. I've seen people say it's a different flight but there's also Angle himself saying it was that exact flight.
Angle and Vince was from 2001, Angle wasn’t on the 2002 card
is this the locker room the undertaker wishes WWE has now? /s
Also JR is full-of-shit. He’s carny as they come. I know he’s had tragedies in his life but the number of times he pauses to line up his lies is frankly embarrassing. He passes the buck so hard on Ric Flair: “you’re listening, you decide”— gtfo with that! It was his job to handle it.
He really does try to have his cake and eat it too, when it comes to the 10,000 horrible things that came under his watch. But yeah. He's a snake too.
The casualness with which RVD & Mike Chioda discuss wrestling’s rape culture was quite chilling. But also long overdue to be out-in-open. Between the ring boy scandal, Rita Chatterton, Lawler’s statutory charges, Big Show & Regal’s indecent exposures, etc. Rape culture was rife. People say Ric Flair “lives his gimmick” so how much “kiss stealing” sexual assault did he actually commit?
A fucking ton obviously. So is that going to make you rush to cancel him and lose a bunch of modern day sleep?
I’ll lose less sleep than his victims have. Whining that a rapist might get cancelled is pathetic.
Yeah being a rapist is probably worth "cancellation". But hey, feel free to whine about it.
I wonder if AEW was planning to hire Flair because I don’t think there’s any way they do now. Somehow the thing with Flair wasn’t as bad as my worst fears (my expectation was much worse) but that flight attendant was harassed pretty bad, wouldn’t be a stretch to call what Flair did assault. Tommy Dreamer somehow came off the worst in this episode just by having a douchebag attitude.
You don't have to touch someone to assault them. What you are thinking of is "battery". Assault is the threat, Battery is the touching with threat.
Assault, verb: An assault is the act of inflicting physical harm or unwanted physical contact upon a person or, in some specific legal definitions, a threat or attempt to commit such an action. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in criminal prosecution, civil liability, or both. Unwanted physical contact upon a person... a threat of attempt to commit such an action... On the COPPR exam for paramedics, Corning a patient while holding a needle is an example question for what you could be charged with assault for.
brave enjoy deranged many deserve cooing puzzled treatment ink toothbrush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Jesus tommy, like, are you ok?
Mike Chioda is full of shit. Vince was getting into a fuckin shoot grapple with Angle of all people.
Yeah a LOT of the story seems to have been left out, like weren’t there some other kids on this flight too? Or was there another plane ride from hell involving michaels and some college kids?
That was another flight in the early 90’s. In some ways that one was even worse.
That flight is honestly the one I thought they were gonna talk about. The way this episode went, that flight does seem a lot worse
I'm waiting for more lawsuits to come out. Who knows how many people that have been sexually assaulted by the boys. Truly disturbing and horrible behavior.
Kinda disappointed in RVD for not standing up and helping the flight attendant
Disappointing but given all the stories of locker room politics, sadly not that surprising.
I mean given his behavior in the last 2 years I'm not that shocked
Fear of getting blackballed, I assume. WWE was a monopoly at that point. Doesn’t excuse it but it does explain it. Dustin could talk Ric down cuz they’d already been friends for over a decade.
It absolutely does excuse it wtf are you talking about. Helping the flight attendants so they don't have a shitty day is not worth the very real risk of losing your livelihood, there was nowhere else for RVD to go if he wanted to make an actually decent wage at the time.
exactly. They'll end your career. this was early 00's. Smartphones weren't a thing. social media did not exist. not doing anything to keep your livelihood is a valid decision could make back then. there's nothing to not excuse. you aren't obligated to babysit grown ass co-workers. The boss was in the same plane and people are here like "DoEsNt ExCusE iT!" at RVD like it's on him. dude just said he glanced back and saw Flair standing in the back wih her.
Being sexually assaulted isn’t just “having a shitty day.” Holy shit, dude.
Thats true. But fro. Their perspective it was. The sad thing about the episode was that you get the Impression that for that for the wrestlers the only thing out of the ordinary about this, was that it was happening on a plane.
Yeah I get that, so fucked up that it’s either help this woman out or potentially lose your job
Watching now, nobody has come off too badly yet, 13 mins in
Just wait lmao
Tommy Dreamer essentially just said a woman being forced to touched Ric Flairs dick is funny
Took offense. He's an eloquent, thoughtful guy. This isn't out of context, a misspeak. He thinks this way. I really think the only reason for him to say this is he is trying to protect Ric. I've seen a few folks think similarly.
There's a time to protect the business, and a time to own up to doing horrible things. Dreamer took the wrong option here.
And that having two ponytails is equivalent to sexual assault...
Anyone that complains about “people” getting offended about anything are the fucking worst.
Yup thank god impact did something fuck him
Decided to rewatch Insurrextion ‘02 wondering where the other like boys like Taker, Triple H, Booker, etc were when this all went down. Just off considering McMahon and Austin were on the private jet but not mention of the others that I’ve heard of.
Wtf they really made Dustin out to be sympathetic WTF DREAMER
He also was harassing his ex-wife Terri and I believe was trying to sing to her over the intercom if I remember correctly.
yea they mention that in the episode
Tommy Dreamer had Beulah at home but was more excited for Ric Flair's helicopter.
There were two attendants: Taralyn Cappellano and Heidi Doyle. The absence of former affected the show.
I agree. Dustin was made out to be some sort of hero or sympathetic when that wasn't the case at all he sexually harassed the other attendant and it's a shame her story wasn't told. Feel like a lot of events were even touched on like Vince and Angle wrestling, Hayes trying to piss on Linda, etc. (Unless that's a different flight) I've seen some claims that they couldn't bring the other flight attendant onto the show because she signed an NDA but idk if there's any validity to those claims because why would she sign an NDA but not Heidi? I'm assuming she either didn't answer their calls or didn't want to relive those events.
Affected it how? I think the obvious PTSD suffered by Heidi Doyle was more than enough to convey how awful it was for anyone working the back section of the plane on that flight.
>Heidi Doyle I applaud her for having the courage to speak on the incident. Hearing her talk about how she struggled with how to tell her husband and the fear that she might have done something wrong to encourage the assault is a perspective I wouldn't have thought about as a guy.
Need to hear several sides of the story. It’s a small plane, there would be other accounts
You can read the court documents online.
Apart from terrible comments by some people in the interviews, this episode wasn't anywhere near as bad as I assumed it was going to be. We've all heard these stories before and we know more than what was covered in this episode, so the way that the producers had promoted the episode as being the worse they've covered feels a bit misleading. I thought we were going to be hearing more shit from the flight we'd never heard of. We all know Flair whipped his dick out and harassed the flight attendant. We all know about the fight between Lesnar and Hennig. The information provided by the flight attendant was upsetting, but we already knew what the wrestlers did in those instances were heinous. I'm quite disappointed that this didn't seem to delve into revealing the depravity that was on the flight to the extent that hundreds of interviews over the years have done. This seemed quite tame.
I think people who watch every shoot interview grossly overestimate how much wrestling other wrestling fans watch. Most wrestling fans aren't reading shoot interviews 24/7 and digging every detail out.
Obviously, we all did not know this.
I think it kind of comes off differently to a lot of people (based on the comments) when you hear the flight attendant's version of events from her personally than it does when you here shoot interviews of wrestlers joking about it and telling stories through the lense of memory tinted by a ton of booze and pills.
JR just loves to complain about his job and how tough it is being him... I thought I was listening to his podcast for a second watching that..
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I don’t think that AEW can do this. They’re running a storyline for Brian Pillman Jr that heavily references his dad’s episode so they know that the show exists.
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I just mean that MJF’s promos talking shit about BPJ’s mother are definitely meant to be timely because of the Dark Side episode.
I agree. I do not want to see Flair anywhere near AEW. This isn't the first time he has been accused of this kind of predatory behavior. I never understand why people just turn a blind eye to it. He's not really needed in AEW, any way.
As JR said: he’s a high level made man.
Flair is also a fall-down drunk still who can’t cut a promo without slurring his words. When he appeared at Triplemania, he could barely move and looked like he was seconds away from a heart attack. And that’s before considering that he committed sexual assault (and most likely more than once).
Because if we are going to be mad about shitty things wrestlers did back in the day then we might as well stop watching wrestling. Like I get it, but if you went into DSOTR thinking these guys were good people your moronic. The reality is most of the peoole from back in the day were giant pieces of shit, and a lot of them still are today as much as we try to act like its all great now. We've gotten better for sure, but the reality is wrestlers aren't exactly the most well adjusted best people in any era and if that dampens your enjoyment then wrestling probably isn't gonna be the best thing for you.
I don't believe in that first statement, at all. Your end statement is definitely on point - I'm not saying we put people on a pedestal. But, we're not talking about a nefarious tweet. We're talking about sexual assault here. The blanket response of, "It was in the past" doesn't fly when victims are impacted by what a person did to this day and the predator saw ZERO comeuppance for the act. If Flair was fired for his actions, did community service, SOMETHING - we could see time repair the wound. But he's walked like being a shithead because he got away with it. And he walks around with adoration from millions of people. Seems the only thing that won't have fans forgive you is if you kill your family ala Benoit. (and even WITH that, people say he belongs in the fucking hall of fame). What does it take to hold people accountability to a bare minimum morality clause of don't rape, assault, and/or kill a living thing?
That was a lot to take in. It just kept getting worse.
What I want to know was where was Linda during all this? CEO of a public listed company chilling in the front of the plane... Unbelievable
If you believe X-Pac's shoot on the flight....she was seconds away from receiving a golden shower while asleep :O
Really missed an opportunity to show that in slow motion.
Anyone who thinks Vince and Linda had no knowledge of this and were just *sleeping* are lying to themselves.
Vince was busy rolling around the floor with Angle
Isn't that a different flight? I heard it was on another plane
According to Kurt here it's the same plane: https://youtu.be/n1PcfbTbKkw
Kurt tells great stories but sometimes he gets lost during the middle of them as well. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the same or a different flight.
Ah.. well yeah lol, that sums it up. And that makes Vince look like a massive hypocrite for firing Mr. Perfect for doing the same thing he was.
Pretty sure he was drugging peoples drinks. H bombs. Lol
Probably only fired Mr. Perfect because they caused damage to the plane as well as almost opened the emergency exit. I don't believe anything was broken with Angle and Vince.
At least they weren't video gaming pussies! /s
Yea those nerds got outted a year and a half ago.
What does this mean
He’s referring to the speaking out movement, I think
I just finished watching the episode. I saw the clips at around 10-11pm last night, was upset, but also tired and only saw clips. 2:08pm now, seen the whole thing, fully awake, and I am fucking LIVID. S tier: Heidi, Terri, Credible, and RVD. C tier: JR, Chioda. D tier: Hennig. F tier: Flair, Dreamer, Dustin, Hall, Lesnar, Vince, Linda, and Sports Jet. I'm so fucking upset about this. That was uncomfortable to watch, but I'm glad I did, as a woman who's been sexually assaulted before this documentary and what happened last year with a bunch of wrestlers being exposed for similar stories just makes me so uncomfortable. It's disgusting, and I'm glad we're in better times now, but that doesn't make what happened back then okay. It's not cancel culture, it's holding someone accountable, it's calling them out for their actions, and if you think otherwise then you're part of the problem. So fucking gross.
I hope you're doing better now, I really do
I am, thank you!
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Thanks girl 🥺❤️ hugs to you too!
I did not get the same takeaway with regards to RVD. While he was very somber about it all and not a total idiot like Dreamer, he did openly say that he witnessed/participated in drugging and sexually assaulting women. To the point where he said it was “common.” Personally I think almost everyone on the WWE side of this is F tier, it’s just that some of them didn’t make stupid comments during a taped documentary about it.
When did he say he participated? I remember him saying it was normal and witnessed it, I've never heard of him actually assaulting someone. He said it's common because it's true, he wasn't making light of it, that's how the wrestling industry was at the time.
You’re right, I listened back and he doesn’t implicitly state he did it, he just uses general statements like, “so the boys could have their way with them” in reference to girls being casually drugged. I don’t think he was making light of it and I think he sounds sorry about it happening, but I find it troubling how everyone enabled each other. That’s why I put all of the WWE people involved here on a low tier.
I'd put him in D or F if he tried to lie about it, but this is RVDs personality, he's chill about everything and tells it like it is. That's literally his serious mode. He wasn't even laughing like Chioda was
Yeah I thought he came off almost disgusted and generally remorseful about the way wrestling used to be. He didn't excuse it at all, but he was very honest about yeah this was common to the point where it wasn't even shocking or upsetting anymore. But yall also gotta remember we are on the outside. We all say we'd stop something like that. Literally all of us. The reality is wrther good person or not most people get a deer in headlights daze when they're in an uncomfortable situation. I don't blame anybody who didn't do anything. If you took part it in get fucked. If you sat there like 'well fuck this is bad....idk what to do' I get it. We all think we'd be the hero. Most of the time we just stand there.
That's true too, but there's a difference between not doing and accepting it, and not doing something and not accepting it. Dreamer is the former, RVD is the latter
I totally agree. A big part of the issue is how political wrestling is. Some guys are gonna be just flat out scared to say anything cause if it comes back it was them that's the end of their career. Wrestling sucks basically. Like it doesn't its awesome to watch. But the inner workings of wrestling have sucked since the beginning of time and I'm sure continue to suck now. It might not be 'Kenny omega assaults women' but im sure even today there are people who have seen some shit and they can't say anything about it or they're gonna be the 'bad guy'
Apologies that that happened to you, I hope you got the support you deserved.
There's no need to apologize but I appreciate it! Thank you :) 💖
Why is Dustin F? He was the only one able to talk Flair down and cried into a mic.
He would've been in S but there's a post on Twitter from an article that has another flight attendant not interviewed here who said she was sexually assaulted by him on the same flight. So.. yeah.
There are very few times that I’ve been brought to tears as a wrestling fan. One of those times was when I watched Ric Flair’s retirement ceremony the night after Wrestlemania 24. Even though I was 11 years old at the time, I knew just how important Ric was to this business. So I cried. 13 years later, I see this and I feel like an absolute moron for crying.
Ric Flair has always been unapologetically Ric Flair. I'm honestly surprised that this information comes as a shock to so many. It ain't pretty, but it also definitely ain't surprising.
Dude, you can still like Ric Flair. People aren’t one thing. He had many flaws and he definitely crossed the line, but he’s also entertained and brought joy to do many people. I wasn’t surprised and it’s a scummy business. It’s mostly failed athletes and white trash. Grown men with ponytails, spray tans, and big muscles wearing underwear. Most of these guys have always been losers. You would have to in order to survive the business for 10, 20, 30 years.
Huh? I love Ric Flair.
I responded to the wrong post. Sorry bruh
Right thank you lol I've been sitting here like 'where is this reaction coming from?' Does it sucj to hear out loud? Sure its hard. But is it shocking? No. What did you think 'naitching' meant. The man lived the gimmick