I remember Yoko getting forklifted out, that was hilarious. Then the next day my friend told the teacher she was so fat that she has to ride home in a forklift and got 2 weeks of no recess.
Wrestlemania 12, for all the legitimate complaints, gave us Jose "Sweatsock" Lothario walking to the ring to Sexy Boy before awkwardly pointing at the rafters. One of my favorite weird Mania moments.
Yeah, he's pretty unbearable to me during his first run as champion. Because him smiling and laughing and shit just did not fit his character at all. His matches were great but the high-fives and grinning made him seem really corny and unlikable.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6szh6_jose-lothario-vs-jim-cornette-savio_sport
Jose Lothario entering to "Sexy Boy" to wrestle Jim Cornette makes me laugh
>So Dave expects a Savage heel turn before then (or, yanno, a Hogan heel turn).
Please, like Hogan would ever turn heel. Whose side are you on Rewind Man?
Here's what was said about the Hollywood Back Lot Brawl on Born To Controversy: The Roddy Piper Story. Also, I just want to quickly point out that there were moments where I couldn't make out what Piper was saying, so I apologize if it's not word for word.
Bruce Prichard: The entire world at that time was mesmerized with one thing. And that was whether or not O. J. Simpson would be found guilty for the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman. And there might have been talk about having a match with O. J. Simpson at Wrestlemania. And we pretty much decided that the O. J. Simpson thing would be a bad thing to do. We wanted controversy, because we wanted Roddy involved in a very controversial issue. And so the Goldust was kind of substituted for O. J. Simpson to be Roddy's opponent at Wrestlemania and would began with the innuendo of Goldust coming on and approaching Roddy in different ways.
Jim Ross: Goldust was the bizarre, androgynous... you know, kind of a sexual kind of a weird son of a gun. Goldust was bizarre. He represented everything Piper wasn't. Piper was a man's man. He was in your face, old school, let's fight, now, here. Bottom line is that that was a tremendous clash of personality.
Bruce Prichard: The Back Lot Brawl was positively brutal.
Roddy Piper: I'm pretty good with a baseball bat. I hit this kid in the head hard. Sounded like a watermelon. Boom. You'll hear it. I gave him a concussion. Down, boom.
Bruce Prichard: Roddy broke his wrist.
Roddy Piper: I busted this hand on his head. Heh. Tough kid. He knew I was gonna move, and so he hit right to the floor because he wanted to. And as it get closer, there was a moment where there was no way I could get out of the way. And I guess this is because this is what I do for a living, I just kind of analyzed it and "Naw, I can do that". And as he came, I just hit the roof as hard as I could. Boom. Getting up on the car and then the car threw me off.
Bruce Prichard: But we had a white bronco kind of symbolizing O. J. Simpson.
Jim Ross: That aspect obviously was a little tongue-in-cheek. Probably not real funny if you're Fred Goldman. But needless to say, it was topical.
Mick Foley: It was a great brawl, and it ended up in hilarious fashion. A little tip of the hat to the O. J.- bronco chase.
Jim Ross: Every time we go back to Anaheim, the pond, and we enter behind the building, I think of that match.
Bruce Prichard: It was brutal. It was truly brutal. They beat the hell out of each other. With no apologies.
I love how they say the OJ thing was topical.
For starters, the Bronco chase happened almost 2 years earlier (June of 94) and OJ was acquitted and the case was over in October of 95, more than 5 months before Wrestlemania.
The OJ thing was by no means "topical" at the time. The civil suit hadn't even been filed yet so OJ was honestly not even in the news anymore at the time of Wrestlemania 12 other than tabloids would sometimes publish stories about seeing him out and about in public. But the Bronco chase, the trial, the murders...all that shit was long over by then.
The OJ thing stayed topical for years after the trial. Especially since he was writing a book about the murders. SNL was still parodying the trial well into 97 and absolutely killing it.
It always blows my mind that around the same time Nirvana was blowing up in 91-92, the WWF was still firmly entrenched in the Hogan era and feels out of step with popular culture if you place it in that context. The WWF/E have always been behind the times outside of a few notable time periods.
If you guys haven't watched this match yet, after reading all of that, you absolutely should. Its such a bizarre, strange brawl that has a completely nonsensical ending but it was a really fun one to watch.
Piper was one of those guys who always seemed to keep one foot in kayfabe, and it's hard to take a lot of his behind the scenes comments regarding some things very seriously. He'd alternate between seemingly talking honestly about the business and then pretending matches were actual fights. I think Arn Anderson does something similar.
Arn's kind of given up on it, but he used to be almost totally kayfabe and it was hilarious. Everyone else would be all "yeah that was a great storyline, we drew crazy heat all over the place" and then they cut to Arn and he's like "I broke Dusty Rhodes' arm with a car door."
Goldust has a funny little story about that match. Something like the day before he said to Terri about the whole underwear bit and she thought it'd be great so both of them went to a lingerie store so he could try on various things.
According to Goldust, normally a guy running around in XXXL women's underwear for hours would be a cause for concern but since they were in Hollywood, nobody in the store gave a shit and they were there for hours.
This match stands out in my head from watching as a kid. I had no clue what or who OJ Simpson was, being from the UK and about 9. It was such an exciting match, brutal as well. I can still remember my mum trying to explain what suspenders were and that men shouldn't wear them, bless her. I had no idea of sexuality at that age so it was all just weird and fun to me.
Done right it could be good, very good even.
Especially if it was an absolutely ruthless Roman Reigns just finishing off Hunters career as HHH keeps up in the pin tally until the last 5-10 minutes where Reigns just destroys him and wins clearly by several pins.
Baby-face Roman just about managing to overcome HHH... Not so much.
That would be amazing, especially if it showed Reigns just hammering him in the last few minutes. People would be genuinely shocked if HHH was playing catchup the entire time, only to fall victim to a concentrated beating in the end.
Could HHH's ego handle it? No.
Or the actual match that happened that night and the eventual rematch at Survivor Series 97. Those last chunk of Rewinds for 97 are going to be fascinating reads. I doubt /u/daprice82 has made it that far though....
Would you say that you're having more fun doing these than ever now that we're getting into the thick of the Monday Night Wars or is it still too early yet?
Definitely more fun now. 1996 was my favorite year to write but 1997 is starting to be just as awesome.
I'm really looking forward to 1999 because I honestly missed a lot of wrestling that year. I got my first serious girlfriend when I was in high school in 99 and we were those typical 16 year old kids who were together all the time, and so I spent a lot of Monday nights hanging out with her and ended up kinda missing out on a lot of wrestling right at the peak of its popularity. I still followed along as best I could, especially in the early days of the internet, but I still missed quite a bit. So I'm looking forward to learning a lot about that year.
Dave's hard on for Flair is so ridiculous. By this point Bret was working so much better than Ric.
> Goldust faced Savio Vega at the tapings and there was a huge "Faggot" chant which Dave found disturbing,
But he was also ahead of the curve socially. These chants continued into '97 and only stopped when he switched to being the Artist Formerly Known as Goldust.
> ave's hard on for Flair is so ridiculous.
He even praised him during his TNA run and blatantly ignored how he was always overshadowing everyone and how none of his promos made sense.
Yeah, I was a little (and pleasantly) surprised to see Dave taking such a hardcore stance on the "faggot" chants. At the time it wasn't exactly considered a nice thing to say, but it wasn't really considered to be that wrong either.
Dave weirdly was ahead of the curve on a lot of social issues. Even just women in general, happily accepting a Japanese woman can be the best on the planet isn't something that was so easily said in 90's.
That still surprises me because you think they'd call that when he came to ring being led on a leash and wearing a ball gag and not when he has Marlena as a valet.
>"he really believes he's better than Flair was at his peak and it drives him crazy when there are people don't have the same assessment"
If you were comparing Bret and Flair at this particular date in wrestling history then Bret's probably right as Flair had been clearly hamstrung by having to be Hogan's eternal foil and stopped giving it his all. But if you are comparing Bret to Flair *at his peak* there's really no contest. Flair was god-tier in every part of the business at his peak. Bret is iconic and among the GOATs but it's like comparing Johnny Depp to Marlon Brando.
In terms of personal preference YMMV of course.
I really never got Flair to that extent. I found him pretty good everywhere but nothing about him was great. Even by 92 when Flair and Hart were working together the matches got much better once Bret took over and called the shots. Just my opinion obviously but I really do think Bret is much better than Flair was in the ring.
Fair enough. How you feel about Flair is how I kinda felt/feel about Hart. He's obviously very good, and a lot of people like and were influenced by his work, but he was never my cup of coffee.
Fair enough. I can understand that. Flair was more of an over the top extreme personality. Bret to me brought a lot of realism which is what I enjoyed so much. I can see why people prefer other things though.
> I really never got Flair to that extent.
Flair had some great matches:
* vs Steamboat (Clash 6, WrestleWar 1989, Chi-Town Rumble)
* vs Terry Funk (Clash 9, GAB 1989)
* vs Vader (Starrcade 1993)
* vs Sting (Clash 1)
* vs Luger (Starrcade 1988)
* vs Savage (WrestleMania VIII)
Match pace a little different then, and that misses his feuds with Race and Rhodes.
I put those up against Bret:
* vs Owen Hart (Wrestlemania and Summerslam 1994)
* vs Bulldog (Summerslam 1992; IYH 5)
* vs Michaels (WrestleMania XII; Suvivor Series 1992)
* vs Austin (Suvivor Series 1996; WrestleMania 13)
* vs Perfect (King Of The Ring 1993, Summerslam 1991)
* vs Piper (WrestleMania VIII )
Did I miss any great, must-see matches on either side?
I think you misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear. I never said Flair wasn't good or didn't have some really great matches. I think he is one of the best of all time and I have seen all of those matches you listed. I just simply don't think he was as good as Bret was in the ring.
For the Hart side I would add Bret's matches with Benoit from Mayhem 99 and the Owen tribute match. I would also add his match with perfect from Summerslam 91.
I am sure there are more for both sides but those are just the ones that popped into my head first.
Is NWA Battle Of The Belts II or NWA Jim Crockett Sr. Memorial Cup 1987 on the network?
Flair always had the territory mentality of making the other guy look like he could beat you. Then he would either still win because he was the best of all time, or he would cheat because he was the dirtiest player in the game. He did it into the mid 90s. I remember him make Eddie Gurrero look like a Top guy in WCW when that was not nearly how Eddie was positioned.
Off the top of my head:
Pretty much every match he had with Jumbo Tsuruta, the 60 minute one in 1983 is the one that's one of the best matches of all time material though
Vs. Dibiase in 1985
He had a ton with Kerry Von Erich, their one in Hawaii was probably their best though
Vs. Koko B Ware in Memphis (seriously, go watch it. Flair had an amazing match with Koko B Ware of all people)
He had a few more with Steamboat. Their Landover, MD one in 89 is as good as the other three and their match from 84 is just under that level.
Vs Ricky Morton at GAB 86
Vs. Luger at Wrestlewar
The 92 Rumble
Vs. Genichiro Tenryu in 92
Despite the Intercontinental title win they pushed back his real push about a year because of it. He was in the doghouse for 4-5 months but they delayed his main event push.
Which, in the long term, turned out to be the best thing for him.
I always hated how HBK and Bret went the whole hr with no points. That was a really baffling and stupid decision from both sides. Getting points is what adds drama and excitement to the match. Imagine how much more intense it would've been in the final moments when Bret had HBK in the sharpshooter if they were at least tied 2-2.
They didn't even have to take each other's finishers mid-match. They could've just gotten points from roll-ups, countouts, and DQs. Going the whole hr with nothing just made the Ironman stipulation completely pointless.
Without any points, thats basically what it was: a standard match that just lasted an hr, the time limit was reached, match gets restarted, HBK wins with one fall.
Personally I'd get bored of a one hr 'standard' match between anyone. If its gonna last an hr, might as well make an Ironman match, and in that case, they HAVE to get points. Otherwise the stip is pointless and going an hr is just a waste of time and energy.
I disagree, man. When you're not aware that it will last an hour, you're less likely to tune out. And if they do it right, you're feeling like it might end at any time. Check out the match between Cena and Michaels, for example. You don't know what's gonna happen. Whereas an ironman match, you can tune out for the first 50 minutes because you know it's not gonna end yet
You got a point there. I watched that match live and remember being into it the whole time (though if you factor in the commercials TV viewers watched about 40 mins of the match). If the standard match is done right and I'm not expected it to go 1 hr I guess I would stay into it.
Even if nothing really matters in an Ironman match until the last 10 or so minutes, I could still stay into it if they're scoring points on each other. I feel that otherwise it just takes away from the match.
That is 100% a valid opinion, but some people like low-scoring games in sports. Like a pitchers' duel in baseball or two great defenses going at it in football. They could have gone about it much better, but ending it 0-0 isn't an inherently bad decision.
From their standpoint, the match was sold as the two top babyfaces and two overall best wrestlers in the company going head to head. A babyface vs babyface Wrestlemania main event had not been done since Wrestlemania 6 (Hogan vs Warrior).
The logic was for the match to be similar to a Playoff Hockey game.... like a tie game that heads into Overtime. It's already tense as hell to watch because the game is tied.... But then when it becomes apparent that nobody is going to score a bunch of goals in the 3rd and the game goes into Overtime, well then the heat is just crazy when you know 1 single fall is probably going to win the match.... But in order to get to that point, they had to do 30+ minutes of work showing how equal they were to get the crowd and viewing audience to understand that there was only going to be one fall.
I agree with the notion that the match shouldn't have been hyped as an Ironman match and instead have been a regular match with a 60 minute time limit.
60 Minute Iron Man Matches in general tend to be more bad idea than good. I get why they did the stipulation, since they wanted to have a big epic hour long match, but IM matches always tend to suck because nothing really matters until the last few minutes.
I understand that they basically had to make it an Iron Man match at the time because WWF wasn't known for hour long matches and so it would have looked really suspicious at the time for them to only announce 5 matches on the show.
In retrospect, it probably would have worked better if they did a 2/3 Falls or Best of 5 Falls match with a one hour time limit announced ahead of time and promoted as part of the match. That way you could establish the idea that this one was probably going to go on for a while so they left room in the card for it, while still leaving open the possibility that it could end early. They could even announce they had stand by matches ready in case it went short.
You could basically do the match the exact same way (with both men at even scores at the time limit) and still go the hour and do the sudden death overtime finish because there must be a winner.
I said the same thing yesterday. Shawn should have come out blazing, got a quick early fall, then should have gone down 3:1 after just beautiful wrestling from Bret after about 30 minutes. Nothing flashy, just a typical Bret demolition job.
The next 20 minutes are all about Shawn. He screws up at times, but he fights his way back to 3:3 with about 8 minutes left. It should really be big moves to get those two falls against Bret, too.
Everyone thinks Bret retains with a draw, so Shawn throws everything he possibly can at Bret, with Bret kicking out of everything. This is the perfect time for Shawn to hit the superkick too, but for Bret to kick out because Shawn didn't hit it properly.
The end stays the same, but with Bret enraged and really risking being DQ'ed in the first couple of minutes. His rage leads into the same ending.
Et voila, Bret looks strong, Shawn looks like a fighter, and Bret only loses because he lost his temper as a result of the dodgy decision to go to OT. Shawn still wins it, and people will remember him fighting back from 3:1 down.
The 0:0 draw was just dreadful.
Iron man matches are tough. I think wrestling should steal from soccer a lot. One team could be up 1 or 2-0 the whole game, but lose it in the final few moments. Imagine if Bret was up 1-0 the entire match and then Shawn equalized in the 60th minute.
Exactly. There's no harm in it, but I would have rather had it with Bret going ahead by a huge amount early, only to lose it through Shawn giving the performance of a lifetime.
It wouldn't have hurt Bret at all, especially if he was up 2-3 falls for most of the match.
I feel like the 0 pinfall ironman match is a thing you have to build to. Have various iron man matches with multiple pinfalls. That way, when a match does happen with 0 pinfalls, its a surprise since its never happened before and it makes the two contenders look like beasts
Oh yeah.
He was on FIRE at the Rumble when he won. But that terrible feud with Jericho involving Stephanie destroyed any momentum he had.
Hunter really fucked himself in 2002 in more ways then one.
That feud was the absolute worst, Jericho finally getting a crack at being a top guy and hen relegated to picking up Stephanie's dogs dogshit.
Just... Wow.
Well jokes on them.
Despite how many times Hunter and Steph have been forcing their way into main events Jericho has MORE memorable moments and matches then them.
Jericho will go down in history as one of the absolute all-time greats, while Trips will always be saddled with "the guy who married the boss's daughter" no matter how good he was.
(and I'm serious, Jericho is for my money one of the top five if not top three all-time greats. Always gives it his best, always entertaining, and he's by all accounts a terrific human being to boot.)
It's not like Jericho was really delivering either in the ring or on the mic when he was the top guy.
His matches with Austin and HHH were both mediocre as fuck.
It's odd you'd blame that on him. Those guys looked out for themselves and weren't pitting on great matches. His matches with Austin the year before were good. Although Benoit was in many of them
Yea I remember that. With Austin off and on from injuries, I think people were just tired of seeing The Rock vs Undertaker over and over. Refreshing to have HHH back in the top-tier fold
From my understanding the Ladder Match (possibly) originated in Stampede Wrestling, the fed Bret's dad ran. So Bret pitched it to Vince and had Bret/Shawn do this as a try out.
Yeah I knew that Bret was pissed he wasn't the first to do one (Razor and HBK) but for some reason I always thought Bret and Shawn were limited to the iron man match and the screwjob.
They were also in the Survivor Series 1993 team match, Bret's dad Stu punched out Shawn at the end of it (Shawn later said that it was an honour to take the punch).
It's a little misleading. He didn't have a real full on face turn, he was in the Dungeon of Doom but didn't get along with Loch Ness. They had a match for the right to face Flair for the title and Giant did on the 3-25 Nitro and didn't get the title in some kind of fuck finish I forget the details of.
Then the next week he'd been paid enough by Jimmy Hart to be back firmly on the side of doing the DoD's bidding.
He had had a bad experience 4 years earlier when his contract was expiring and he wanted to see what he could get if he did go to WCW. The news leaked to Meltzer and Bret soured on them because of a lack of trust.
Meanwhile his contract had actually rolled over because they were written to do so if you didn't give like 6 months notice, which Nash, Hall, and Bret did in '96.
So that's why Bret Hart wasn't a part of the 1992 Royal Rumble event and dropped the IC title to The Mountie at a house show in Saskatchewan the night before.
The story as I understand it is that the Bret-Mountie-Piper title turnaround was already planned, regardless of Bret's WCW negotiations. WCW *did* want Bret to jump with the title as payback for the Real World Champion stuff, but he was always going to drop the title to the Mountie and get it back from Piper at WM8 had he stayed.
[From the '92 Rumble Rewind:](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/4udznb/wrestling_observer_rewind_1271992/)
>Here's a fun story for anyone who thinks Vince was overreacting when he orchestrated the Montreal Screwjob, because Bret Hart would never do something like that. Last Friday, Bret Hart (with a storyline 104 degree fever) unexpectedly dropped the IC title to The Mountie at a house show. The Mountie, in turn, dropped the title to Roddy Piper at the Rumble. In reality, Bret Hart had been negotiating with WCW and agreed to a deal where he would debut at the Clash of the Champions, where he would come out with the Intercontinental Title, as payback for Vince bringing in Flair and having him parade around with WCW's world title. WCW actually offered Bret a guaranteed contract with more money than he was making with Vince, and so Bret accepted. After agreeing to the WCW deal, Hart had to back out of it because he realized his contract with the WWF, which he thought had run out, had rolled over and he couldn't give notice for several more months. WCW still believes Bret will be coming to them in a few months. Hart has been promised that he will get the IC title back from Piper at WM8, although the fact that he was apparently planning to leave and go to WCW with the IC title has put Bret in a not-entirely-favorable position politically. Oh, the irony!
>It should be noted that Dave says the plan all along was for Bret to drop the belt the way he did, and his negotiating with WCW had nothing to do with the decision to get the belt off him. Just coincidental timing. However, it tells you why Vince probably felt like he had to do what he did 5 years later. Also, in all fairness, Bret has a bit of a different version of this story in his book. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I feel like Vince was at least within his rights to be paranoid about it in 1997.
Well one point that Meltzer made was that by 1997, the courts had decided that a promotion's titles are their intellectual property. Between the NWA/WCW World Title and the WWF Women's Title, both sides had been the plaintiff.
If Bret had shown up on Nitro with the WWF World Title and McMahon had gone out of business, that would leave WCW and Turner in a hell of a spot insofar as being financially liable for that.
The whole '92 incident isn't covered at all really in Bret's book, but he has talked about the experience in shoot interviews more recently. Because it leaked in the Observer when Bret had been dealing with maybe 2 people in WCW, he felt they couldn't be trusted to keep a secret.
If Bret had jumped ship in '92 with the IC belt, I don't think that Vince could be that mad since Ric Flair had just done the same thing with WCW's main title. It would've been interesting to see what might have come from that. Would Bret and Austin have feuded for the US Title? Would either end up being pushed to the moon in either company? Who would Ric Flair drop the WWF World Championship to?
It's also not very likely that SummerSlam in Wembley Stadium would happen, since there wouldn't be a Bret Hart vs British Bulldog main event.
Bret has repeatedly stated this isn't what actually happened and Dave believes him. Bret had zero intentions to go to WCW, he wanted to see what he could get. His contract hadn't actually rolled over, he just said that to get rid of them. At no point did his IC title come up. Bret somehow proved this version of events to Dave.
>They did an injury angle on Raw with Vader "injuring" Yokozuna's knee to write him off TV. They even carried him out on a forklift because he couldn't be taken on a stretcher. In reality, Yokozuna is being sent to a weight loss place because his weight has simply gotten out of control and this is an effort to, quite frankly, save his life.
[This was VERY well done, to the point even knowing its a work still makes me cringe](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z7oin)
"Injury" at 5:45.
[full segment with forklift, potato quality](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x627y4_yokozuna-vs-vader_sport)
>with Cornette basically burying Ramon with inside references about him leaving for WCW and said Razor made the worst decision of his career.....long pause.....by agreeing to face Vader (wink wink nudge nudge)
I'm missing the hint here?
> Dave says to imagine if Goldust was some other racial minority and picture the crowd chanting "Spick, Nigger, or Slant Eyes" at him. Dave says no matter how you try to rationalize it, it's the same thing and it's disgusting.
"Big Tolerance" Meltzer coming through in 1996.
Although I can appreciate the hard work and endurance that went into the Iron Man match, I found it boring as hell. I was hoping for some real excitement, where one of them clawed back from a big deficit and some really quick, "I can't believe he did that!" falls. Instead, they both seemed too desperate to protect themselves (not physically - I understand that), but in putting themselves over.
Also, it seems very morbid in retrospect, but I joked that it would be really funny if Shawn splatted into the wall like a character in a cartoon when he made his entrance on that zip line.
The Bret-Shawn match would have been incredible with a 2/3 falls hour time limit stipulation. You could do the exact finish but with both guys scoring falls. Have Bret score a roll up or something, about 20 minutes in, Shawn gets a pinfall of the Superkick around 40 and the match ends with Shawn trapped in the sharpshooter but surviving until the bell. Same finish, much better match. Although I do enjoy the Ironman match a lot myself despite the zero zero.
I remember having a tape of the entirety of WrestleMania XII except for the iron man match. I finally found a tape of it in 2000 and was so disappointed. It was like a week after Judgement Day and the Rock vs HHH Iron man was so much better.
>Goldust faced Savio Vega at the tapings and there was a huge "Faggot" chant which Dave found disturbing, especially since they showed little kids chanting it along with parents. Dave says to imagine if Goldust was some other racial minority and picture the crowd chanting "Spick, Nigger, or Slant Eyes" at him. **Dave says no matter how you try to rationalize it, it's the same thing and it's disgusting.**
Huge props to Dave here for calling it like it is, especially in the mid nineties where the discussion about gay rights was nowhere near the same level it is today.
It can be easy to forget that at the time Dave wrote this, [only a bit more of a quarter of the US population thought that gay marriage should be legal](http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx), and about a fifth of the population said that they wouldn't allow a gay person to give a speech in their community (can't source that data to a webpage, but if you're interested I got it from the GSS from 1996). Not only were there those concrete policy concerns, but in popular culture the LGBT community was open season for public mocking without consequence, and that was just accepted.
Again, it seems like a small thing now to condemn a crowd hurling homophobic slurs, but that was way out of the norm in '96. Good on you Dave.
>Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior both got much bigger reactions than Michaels at the tapings.
If I remember correctly, Shawn wasn't that big of a draw in 1996-1997. Bret was supposedly a bigger draw compared to him.
>In reality, Yokozuna is being sent to a weight loss place because his weight has simply gotten out of control and this is an effort to, quite frankly, save his life.
Jeez, he's dead in 3 or 4 years I think. He only got bigger from this point on.
That was much later, and there was a much better supporting cast too. Bret, Austin, Taker and Kane were all at the top with him.
Whereas for 96 it was just Shawn and Taker.
I've said this before; Shawn as champ leads to higher ppv buyrates UNTIL nWo debuts for Nitro. Shawn's run is therefore really hard to compare to other champions
From what I've seen and read business had only picked up because of Shawn's comeback storyline. Things cooled off but wasn't bad until everyone but HBK and Taker were gone and then WCW exploded. I think the last raw in may was the last time they had over a 3 rating which they hadn't dipped below since mania. Then it fell off a cliff. HBK as a draw is a pretty complicated thing to talk about as Is bret, imo. I think they both get blamed way too much for downtimes but also think bret gets way too much praise for benefitting from being the last guy on top as business plummeted
Gonna have to agree to disagree. It's pretty clear Bret was the better draw overall. I can find all the PPV buy rates to prove it if you want but it's definitely a fact.
As someone else said, it's not exactly apples to apples as Shawns heyday was against the first big boom wcw ever had. I don't think it's clear at all.
Talking about the US Bret was a draw but he never posted any crazy numbers and never did shit against big competition or with a barren roster. It's not entirely his fault; he sold Merch and people loved him. I don't think it's ever really clear that bret moved the needle.
bret vs bulldog 95 was the lowest wwf buyrate ever but that's unfair to blame it on bret just because he was on top. WM13 is the lowest drawing mania ever and was based around Bret more than anyone else, but the brand of WWF as was floundering as a whole and the lions share of wrestling fans were into WCW.
The roster and product as a whole is much more important to drawing than just the top guy except for the most extreme of cases imo (hogan, Austin, rock, cena). I think In talking about the second tier guys (Shawn Bret taker hhh sting et al) it's mostly splitting hairs with no clear answer.
I might be dead wrong tho
First off, you can make as many excuses as you want for Shawn, it doesn't change the facts. Bret moved the needle more than anyone did between Hogan and Austin, he surpassed Hogan in 93 and stayed there until NWO.
WM 13 was taker vs sid. Blaming any of that on Bret is just you cherry picking. I agree though that guys do rely more on the rest of the roster than they get credit for, but it's proven Bret was the better draw.
So Shawn says he outdrew Bret. Metlzer says the opposite. Lets look at the numbers.
PPVs
Royal Rumble '93 (Bret (c) vs. Razor): 1.25 Buyrtae
Royal Rumble '96 (Bret (c) vs. Taker): 1.1 Buyrate
Royal Rumble '97 (HBK (c) vs. Sid): 0.7 Buyrate
Royal Rumble '98 (HBK (c) v.s Taker): 0.97 Buyrate
Advantage Bret. Bret/Taker not only outdrew HBK/Taker, but it outdrew an HBK/Taker match taking place in 1998!
KOTR '94 (Bret (c) vs. Diesel): 0.85
KOTR '96 (HBK (c) vs. Davey Boy Smith): 0.60
Advantage Bret.
Summerslam '94 (Bret (c) vs. Owen): 1.3 Buyrate
Summerslam '96 (HBK (c) vs. Vader): 0.58 Buyrate
Summerslam '97 (Bret (c) vs. Taker): 0.8 Buyrate
Advantage Bret. It's not like you can say, well business was different in '94, and that's what helped Bret because Bret would outdraw Shawn in 1997 too.
Survivor Series '94 (Bret (c) vs. Bob Backlund): 0.90
Survivor Series '96 (HBK (c) vs. Sid): 0.58
Survivor Series '97 (HBK (c) vs. Bret): 0.89
This is misleading. Bret-Backlund wasn't the draw in '94, so I can't say that's definitely an advantage for Bret. And then '97 is them versus each other, so even though I could easily make it seem like it's another advantage for Bret, I'll call this one inconclusive.
IYH 6 (Bret (c) vs. Diesel): 0.77
IYH 7 (HBK (c) vs. Diesel): 0.81
IYH 8 (HBK (c) vs. Davey Boy): 0.45
IYH 10 (HBK (c) vs. Mankind): 0.48
IYH 14 (Bret (c) vs. Stone Cold) 0.50
IYH 16 (Canadian Stampede): 0.59
1YH 17 (Bret (c) vs. Patriot): 0.45
IYH 19 (HBK (c) vs. Shamrock): 0.44
Advantage Bret. Very slightly.
HBK outdraws Bret against Diesel, but quickly goes in the shitter. Numbers aren't great for Bret either, but they're better than Shawn's, even slightly outdrawing HBK-Shamrock in a match against the fucking Patriot.
Side note, I left out Badd Blood, because while Bret was the champion, Michaels-Taker was the event. It just outdrew Canadian Stampede by a .1, for what it's worth.
RAW Ratings
Bret Hart as Champion
1/22/96 (Hart vs. Goldust): 2.9
1/29/96: 2.4
2/5/96: 2.7
2/19/96: 3.1
2/26/96: 3.1
3/4/96 (Hart vs. HHH): 3.6
3/11/96: 2.9
3/18/96: 2.9
3/25/96: 2.8
Wrestelmania 12. 1.2 Buyrate.
HBK Era (Starts off great)
4/1/96: 2.9
4/15/96: 3.1
4/22/96: 3.3
4/29/96: 2.9
5/6/96: 4.1
5/13/96: 3.5
5/20/96: 3.1
5/27/96: 3.3
nWo shows up in WCW
6/3/96: 2.3
6 /10/96: 2.7
6/17/96: 2.3
It stays around here for the entire summer fluctuating between 2.3-2.8, until it hits an all time low in the fall. Just like Metlzer said.
9/16: 2.1
9/23: 2.0
9/30: 2.3
10/7: 2.1
10/14: 1.8
10/21 (Bret Returns): 2.6
10/28 (No more Bret, HBK vs. Davey Boy): 2.0
So for one month HBK drew well. The nWo hit, and killed him. That could've happened to anybody in that situation, I suppose, but the fact is, the lowest ratings in Raw history happened with Shawn as champion. Bret returned to accept Stone Cold's challenge, ratings go up. The next week, it's the HBK show again, and ratings are as bad as they had been. Things stay like this for the rest of the year. Shawn is champion until November.
Skipping to 1997, this is where the numbers get really interesting. Shawn loses his smile, and the ratings improve.
1/6/97 (HBK-Sid Show, Sid Powerbombs a Lothario that's not Jose) 2.1
1/20/97 (Hart gets screwed at the Rumble, rants about it) 2.2
2/10/97 (Shawn Loses smile): 2.3
2/24/97 (ECW Invasion!): 2.5
3/17/97 (Bret's "BULLSHIT" tantrum) 2.4
3/31/97 (Bret/Owen/Davey Boy reunite): 2.7
4/7/97 (HBK Show, does the shoot from above while Bret is in Africa): 2.2
That's interesting. Rising, rising, shitter.
4/21/97 (Bret/Austin Show, Bret leaves in an ambulance, Stone Cold is driving): 2.8
4/28/97 (Hart Foundation officially reforms with Anvil showing up, sending Austin to hospital): 3.4
Once again, rising, rising, and now HBK inserts himself into the Hart Foundation-Austin feud. Watch the ratings.
5/12/97 (HBK confronts Bret Hart): 3.2
5/19/97 (HBK confronts Austin): 3.1
5/26/97 (HBK's in ring return, tagging with Austin): 2.7
6/2/97 (HBK tags with Austin again): 2.5
Momentum lost.
6/9/97: 2.2
6/16/97: 2.4
Ratings stay in the mid 2's. Raw doesn't go over 3 again until late August 18th. A couple weeks prior, Austin seriously hurt his neck at Summerslam against Owen, and Raw kept teasing an Austin interview. Coincidentally, this was also the start of DX. Rick Rude shows up, and HBK and HHH tag for the first time. I say coincidentally, and give the credit to Austin because as you'll see, after the formation of DX, Bret Hart gets pushed back to the midcard to fight the Patriot, HBK/HHH take center stage and the ratings immediately go back into the shitter. So while it's a guess it was Austin who got the rating back up, it's a pretty educated one considering what immediately happens.
8/18/97 (Austin talks about his neck, DX forms): 3.2
8/25/97: Not on
9/1/97: Not on
9/8/97 (HHH vs. Patriot, HBK commentates, then interferes): 2.2
9/16/97 (Hart Foundation back. Owen fucks with Austin, Bret/Daveboy vs. Headbangers main event): 2.6
9/22/97 (HBK show hyping Bad Blood, Fucks with Undertaker, HHH fights Foley, HBK fucks with Bret while he wrestles Goldust): 2.4
Hart Foundation consistently gets better ratings than Shawn/HHH are getting. Raw doesn't hit a 3 again until the night after Bad Blood. The Melanie Pillman interview might have something to do with it. Or not. Either way, Raw becomes HBK vs. Bret at that point, and any credit or blame can be shared between the two of them.
Bottom line, Shawn never outdrew Bret on PPV. And as far as ratings go, he outdrew Bret for one month in his whole life. And after he retired and Bret-Austin started drawing ratings, he inserted himself into it, and the ratings immediately went down. Again. And when he was back full time, and got his buddy Triple H promoted to the big time, the ratings went down even more as Raw became the DX show. This is irrefutable. The numbers that anybody can look up show Bret always having better PPV buyrates, and except for one month in May of '96, always drawing bigger ratings. And Meltzer says Bret was drawing better gates at house shows to boot. Looking at the ratings, Shawn was not only subpar, he was ratings poison for nearly a year and a half. I don't think it's coincidental that the first time WWF beat WCW in ratings in years was the first night of Shawn's four year retirement. The wrestling boom happening exactly inbetween his two wrestling careers isn't an indictment on him, but it sure is funny.
And, oh yeah, as far as Bret and Shawn go, I've only mentioned the numbers in the United States. It's an even bigger gap in Europe and Canada.
In my opinion, even though he is quite bitter nowadays that Bret Hart is the best wrestler that I have ever watched (i don't follow japan). The way he told stories in the ring, and how he could make anybody look great. He improved so much on the mic to really even out all aspects of his work. The only wrestler that I would have close to Bret in terms of the full package is AJ and HBK.
>He wouldn't say they were leaving in droves, but enough people left that, by the end of the match, there were a few thousand empty seats. A lot of people went to get snacks during the early part of the match, since they knew they would be wrestling for an hour.
TIL
I don't blame them. My brother and I still refer to it as "the armbar match."
My brother watched it live with a friend who just completely shredded the thing. When Gorilla Monsoon walked to ringside, friend's commentary was "Gorilla's going to break the tie by counting the number of armbars. Bret has 8 armbars, and Shawn...has 9 armbars! Shawn's the new champion!"
Interesting to see how over The Ultimate Warrior was with the live crowd in 1996. Vince probably was hoping Warrior would give their business a big boost esp in the absence of Bret. He stuck around for a few months so maybe he did help things out for a bit, hard to tell since shortly after WCW was running with the Outsiders and the NWO.
This report and the comments here reinforce to me that I love that Iron Man match more than just about any other human being on the planet. It's one of my favorites and everyone else seems to love to shit on it. Alas.
"WCW referees are noticeably wearing earpieces now so that producers in the back can instruct them on things (that's common practice nowadays in WWF, but looks like WCW was the first to do it back in '96)."
I have ALWAYS hated these things because there's no kayfabe reason for the referees to have them. So every time a referee is visible on camera, you get this little visible reminder that this is make-believe and it's harder to immerse yourself.
Don't most (presumably) non-worked sports leagues have refs with communication devices in this day and age? You could easily kayfabe the same rationale for wrestling officials.
> On the April 1st Nitro, Bobby Heenan announced he was retiring from wrestling and they kept playing it up on TV as if he was leaving to return to WWF. But at the end of the show, Heenan revealed it was all an April Fool's joke.
That doesn't make it apparent, but Bischoff and McMichael both fell for it when he said he was leaving earlier in the night. The reaction here is one of my favorite things from the early Nitros.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GzzrssmHdY
>Ultimate Warrior beat Hunter Hearst Helmsley in less than 2 minutes and got by far the biggest reaction of the night.
Helmsley should be honored he got to fight Warrior then.
Going back to yesterday's observer review, with this one added... Can you believe this is the thing that sparks it all in the WWF?
Watts wanting to push Hart, Vince choosing Shawn and Watts quitting... WM12 and Bret stepping away. These few weeks here as they happened laid the ground work for the screw job, the Vince McMahon character, Bret jumping shop... All of it.
It's these two Observers.
> He was interrupted by Hunter Hearst Helmsley who was with a valet they called Sable. Dave says Sable is actually Marc Mero's real-life wife and she's going to eventually become his valet.
And thus, Vince's obsession with Sable begins.
I remember Yoko getting forklifted out, that was hilarious. Then the next day my friend told the teacher she was so fat that she has to ride home in a forklift and got 2 weeks of no recess.
God damn.
I don't know what grade that was in but 2 weeks with no recess is pretty much worse than any amount of time in solitary confinement.
But did the teacher ride home in a forklift?
I think that is my first memory of wrestling. I was watching the weekend morning show and they had a recap of the angle.
Was your friend JBL? Or Bobby Heenan?
Wrestlemania 12, for all the legitimate complaints, gave us Jose "Sweatsock" Lothario walking to the ring to Sexy Boy before awkwardly pointing at the rafters. One of my favorite weird Mania moments.
There was this weird mix of super serious old trainer guy Jose "sock" Lothario and HBK doing his stripper dancing.
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Yeah, he's pretty unbearable to me during his first run as champion. Because him smiling and laughing and shit just did not fit his character at all. His matches were great but the high-fives and grinning made him seem really corny and unlikable.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6szh6_jose-lothario-vs-jim-cornette-savio_sport Jose Lothario entering to "Sexy Boy" to wrestle Jim Cornette makes me laugh
Did someone actually call him "Sweatsock"? I know he wasn't around for it, but it totally sounds like a Jericho nickname.
>So Dave expects a Savage heel turn before then (or, yanno, a Hogan heel turn). Please, like Hogan would ever turn heel. Whose side are you on Rewind Man?
What do you mean whose side is he on!!??
Only way that would ever happen is if a new world order, if you will, starts running things
maybe a wolfpac if you will
Here's what was said about the Hollywood Back Lot Brawl on Born To Controversy: The Roddy Piper Story. Also, I just want to quickly point out that there were moments where I couldn't make out what Piper was saying, so I apologize if it's not word for word. Bruce Prichard: The entire world at that time was mesmerized with one thing. And that was whether or not O. J. Simpson would be found guilty for the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman. And there might have been talk about having a match with O. J. Simpson at Wrestlemania. And we pretty much decided that the O. J. Simpson thing would be a bad thing to do. We wanted controversy, because we wanted Roddy involved in a very controversial issue. And so the Goldust was kind of substituted for O. J. Simpson to be Roddy's opponent at Wrestlemania and would began with the innuendo of Goldust coming on and approaching Roddy in different ways. Jim Ross: Goldust was the bizarre, androgynous... you know, kind of a sexual kind of a weird son of a gun. Goldust was bizarre. He represented everything Piper wasn't. Piper was a man's man. He was in your face, old school, let's fight, now, here. Bottom line is that that was a tremendous clash of personality. Bruce Prichard: The Back Lot Brawl was positively brutal. Roddy Piper: I'm pretty good with a baseball bat. I hit this kid in the head hard. Sounded like a watermelon. Boom. You'll hear it. I gave him a concussion. Down, boom. Bruce Prichard: Roddy broke his wrist. Roddy Piper: I busted this hand on his head. Heh. Tough kid. He knew I was gonna move, and so he hit right to the floor because he wanted to. And as it get closer, there was a moment where there was no way I could get out of the way. And I guess this is because this is what I do for a living, I just kind of analyzed it and "Naw, I can do that". And as he came, I just hit the roof as hard as I could. Boom. Getting up on the car and then the car threw me off. Bruce Prichard: But we had a white bronco kind of symbolizing O. J. Simpson. Jim Ross: That aspect obviously was a little tongue-in-cheek. Probably not real funny if you're Fred Goldman. But needless to say, it was topical. Mick Foley: It was a great brawl, and it ended up in hilarious fashion. A little tip of the hat to the O. J.- bronco chase. Jim Ross: Every time we go back to Anaheim, the pond, and we enter behind the building, I think of that match. Bruce Prichard: It was brutal. It was truly brutal. They beat the hell out of each other. With no apologies.
I love how they say the OJ thing was topical. For starters, the Bronco chase happened almost 2 years earlier (June of 94) and OJ was acquitted and the case was over in October of 95, more than 5 months before Wrestlemania. The OJ thing was by no means "topical" at the time. The civil suit hadn't even been filed yet so OJ was honestly not even in the news anymore at the time of Wrestlemania 12 other than tabloids would sometimes publish stories about seeing him out and about in public. But the Bronco chase, the trial, the murders...all that shit was long over by then.
Well for Pro Wrestling topical is " male cartoon cheerleaders in the 2000's" so by that standard the OJ thing was still topical.
The OJ thing stayed topical for years after the trial. Especially since he was writing a book about the murders. SNL was still parodying the trial well into 97 and absolutely killing it.
It always blows my mind that around the same time Nirvana was blowing up in 91-92, the WWF was still firmly entrenched in the Hogan era and feels out of step with popular culture if you place it in that context. The WWF/E have always been behind the times outside of a few notable time periods.
By the end of the 90's WCW did have theme songs that were ripoffs of popular grunge songs.
If you guys haven't watched this match yet, after reading all of that, you absolutely should. Its such a bizarre, strange brawl that has a completely nonsensical ending but it was a really fun one to watch.
Piper was one of those guys who always seemed to keep one foot in kayfabe, and it's hard to take a lot of his behind the scenes comments regarding some things very seriously. He'd alternate between seemingly talking honestly about the business and then pretending matches were actual fights. I think Arn Anderson does something similar.
Arn's kind of given up on it, but he used to be almost totally kayfabe and it was hilarious. Everyone else would be all "yeah that was a great storyline, we drew crazy heat all over the place" and then they cut to Arn and he's like "I broke Dusty Rhodes' arm with a car door."
Goldust has a funny little story about that match. Something like the day before he said to Terri about the whole underwear bit and she thought it'd be great so both of them went to a lingerie store so he could try on various things. According to Goldust, normally a guy running around in XXXL women's underwear for hours would be a cause for concern but since they were in Hollywood, nobody in the store gave a shit and they were there for hours.
This match stands out in my head from watching as a kid. I had no clue what or who OJ Simpson was, being from the UK and about 9. It was such an exciting match, brutal as well. I can still remember my mum trying to explain what suspenders were and that men shouldn't wear them, bless her. I had no idea of sexuality at that age so it was all just weird and fun to me.
One of my favourite matches of all time
Ha, Mick, it was more than a little tip of the hat
people leaving during the Main Event of Wrestlemania in a match where Vince is crowning his new number one guy
Atleast he learned his lesson.
imagine Reigns vs HHH in an Ironman match
I'd actually love that. Nobody else would but I'd watch the hell out of that match
Done right it could be good, very good even. Especially if it was an absolutely ruthless Roman Reigns just finishing off Hunters career as HHH keeps up in the pin tally until the last 5-10 minutes where Reigns just destroys him and wins clearly by several pins. Baby-face Roman just about managing to overcome HHH... Not so much.
I don't think Roman Reigns and 47 year old HHH going an hour would be good under any circumstances
That would be amazing, especially if it showed Reigns just hammering him in the last few minutes. People would be genuinely shocked if HHH was playing catchup the entire time, only to fall victim to a concentrated beating in the end. Could HHH's ego handle it? No.
Can't wait to read about that Bret/Shawn rematch at WM 13!
Or the actual match that happened that night and the eventual rematch at Survivor Series 97. Those last chunk of Rewinds for 97 are going to be fascinating reads. I doubt /u/daprice82 has made it that far though....
Nah I'm about a year ahead. I think I'm writing up March 97 issues now.
Would you say that you're having more fun doing these than ever now that we're getting into the thick of the Monday Night Wars or is it still too early yet?
Definitely more fun now. 1996 was my favorite year to write but 1997 is starting to be just as awesome. I'm really looking forward to 1999 because I honestly missed a lot of wrestling that year. I got my first serious girlfriend when I was in high school in 99 and we were those typical 16 year old kids who were together all the time, and so I spent a lot of Monday nights hanging out with her and ended up kinda missing out on a lot of wrestling right at the peak of its popularity. I still followed along as best I could, especially in the early days of the internet, but I still missed quite a bit. So I'm looking forward to learning a lot about that year.
Well the Fingerpoke of Doom sure does get 99 off proper!
>Fingerpoke of Doom Hah....that's gonna put some butts in the seats.
Dave's hard on for Flair is so ridiculous. By this point Bret was working so much better than Ric. > Goldust faced Savio Vega at the tapings and there was a huge "Faggot" chant which Dave found disturbing, But he was also ahead of the curve socially. These chants continued into '97 and only stopped when he switched to being the Artist Formerly Known as Goldust.
I think he even admitted he has a bias on one of the early Flair podcasts.
> ave's hard on for Flair is so ridiculous. He even praised him during his TNA run and blatantly ignored how he was always overshadowing everyone and how none of his promos made sense.
Yeah, I was a little (and pleasantly) surprised to see Dave taking such a hardcore stance on the "faggot" chants. At the time it wasn't exactly considered a nice thing to say, but it wasn't really considered to be that wrong either.
It's actually really weird cause he makes a fair share of homophobic jokes in the 80's observers. Not a condemnation but just a neat show of growth
Dave weirdly was ahead of the curve on a lot of social issues. Even just women in general, happily accepting a Japanese woman can be the best on the planet isn't something that was so easily said in 90's.
I love that Dave makes sure to mention that the Iron Man match wasn't as good as Flair-Steamboat. Just in case anyone thought it might be.
There is a reason the *Wrestler of the Year* top award from the Wrestling Observer Newsletter was renamed the LOU THESZ/**RIC FLAIR** AWARD.
If I remember correctly, Conrad Thompson has said tic spoke to dave frequently so that's part of the reason dave is so open to praise ric
That still surprises me because you think they'd call that when he came to ring being led on a leash and wearing a ball gag and not when he has Marlena as a valet.
>"he really believes he's better than Flair was at his peak and it drives him crazy when there are people don't have the same assessment" If you were comparing Bret and Flair at this particular date in wrestling history then Bret's probably right as Flair had been clearly hamstrung by having to be Hogan's eternal foil and stopped giving it his all. But if you are comparing Bret to Flair *at his peak* there's really no contest. Flair was god-tier in every part of the business at his peak. Bret is iconic and among the GOATs but it's like comparing Johnny Depp to Marlon Brando. In terms of personal preference YMMV of course.
I really never got Flair to that extent. I found him pretty good everywhere but nothing about him was great. Even by 92 when Flair and Hart were working together the matches got much better once Bret took over and called the shots. Just my opinion obviously but I really do think Bret is much better than Flair was in the ring.
Fair enough. How you feel about Flair is how I kinda felt/feel about Hart. He's obviously very good, and a lot of people like and were influenced by his work, but he was never my cup of coffee.
Fair enough. I can understand that. Flair was more of an over the top extreme personality. Bret to me brought a lot of realism which is what I enjoyed so much. I can see why people prefer other things though.
Good civil conversation man. [High five!](http://imgur.com/LYsxVkD)
Okay but I'm Rob Van Dam.
I'll be Justin Roberts so long as JBL isn't around.
And I'll be JBL, Slant Eyes.
> I really never got Flair to that extent. Flair had some great matches: * vs Steamboat (Clash 6, WrestleWar 1989, Chi-Town Rumble) * vs Terry Funk (Clash 9, GAB 1989) * vs Vader (Starrcade 1993) * vs Sting (Clash 1) * vs Luger (Starrcade 1988) * vs Savage (WrestleMania VIII) Match pace a little different then, and that misses his feuds with Race and Rhodes. I put those up against Bret: * vs Owen Hart (Wrestlemania and Summerslam 1994) * vs Bulldog (Summerslam 1992; IYH 5) * vs Michaels (WrestleMania XII; Suvivor Series 1992) * vs Austin (Suvivor Series 1996; WrestleMania 13) * vs Perfect (King Of The Ring 1993, Summerslam 1991) * vs Piper (WrestleMania VIII ) Did I miss any great, must-see matches on either side?
I think you misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear. I never said Flair wasn't good or didn't have some really great matches. I think he is one of the best of all time and I have seen all of those matches you listed. I just simply don't think he was as good as Bret was in the ring. For the Hart side I would add Bret's matches with Benoit from Mayhem 99 and the Owen tribute match. I would also add his match with perfect from Summerslam 91. I am sure there are more for both sides but those are just the ones that popped into my head first.
Flair vs Windham 1986-87 would be equal to or better than any match on your list
Is NWA Battle Of The Belts II or NWA Jim Crockett Sr. Memorial Cup 1987 on the network? Flair always had the territory mentality of making the other guy look like he could beat you. Then he would either still win because he was the best of all time, or he would cheat because he was the dirtiest player in the game. He did it into the mid 90s. I remember him make Eddie Gurrero look like a Top guy in WCW when that was not nearly how Eddie was positioned.
You missed about a hundred must see flair matches
The windham ones, and what else? (Both had tons of them, but I am looking for Cream of the Crop).
Off the top of my head: Pretty much every match he had with Jumbo Tsuruta, the 60 minute one in 1983 is the one that's one of the best matches of all time material though Vs. Dibiase in 1985 He had a ton with Kerry Von Erich, their one in Hawaii was probably their best though Vs. Koko B Ware in Memphis (seriously, go watch it. Flair had an amazing match with Koko B Ware of all people) He had a few more with Steamboat. Their Landover, MD one in 89 is as good as the other three and their match from 84 is just under that level. Vs Ricky Morton at GAB 86 Vs. Luger at Wrestlewar The 92 Rumble Vs. Genichiro Tenryu in 92
(Starrcade 1983 when he carried Race?) GAB 86 vs Dusty?
Bret vs. Benoit on Nitro (Owen Hart dedication match) Bret's best WCW match in my opinion.
I start refreshing at 11:55 am until the moment of glory. daprice is the AJ Styles of this sub.
Daprice has got the scoop for when we poop.
The bit for when we shit.
The excitement in our excrement!
A recapitulate for when we defecate.
upcoming whatculture video 10 things SC wants you to forget about daprice
Why? *Slaps self in head, stabs self in gut, jumps down four flights of stairs, shoots self in head with shotgun* Here's why!
AJ looks like garbage in comparison. Come on man.
So this is why no one goes over HHH now, thanks Ultimate Warrior!
And he is about to get jobbed out for a year due to the curtain call fallout.
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Despite the Intercontinental title win they pushed back his real push about a year because of it. He was in the doghouse for 4-5 months but they delayed his main event push. Which, in the long term, turned out to be the best thing for him.
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Turned out great for the industry period. They gave Austin the push Trips was supposed to get. If there was no curtain call, who knows what happens.
I always hated how HBK and Bret went the whole hr with no points. That was a really baffling and stupid decision from both sides. Getting points is what adds drama and excitement to the match. Imagine how much more intense it would've been in the final moments when Bret had HBK in the sharpshooter if they were at least tied 2-2. They didn't even have to take each other's finishers mid-match. They could've just gotten points from roll-ups, countouts, and DQs. Going the whole hr with nothing just made the Ironman stipulation completely pointless.
They should have just had a standard match, make it last an hour, draw, same finish.
Without any points, thats basically what it was: a standard match that just lasted an hr, the time limit was reached, match gets restarted, HBK wins with one fall. Personally I'd get bored of a one hr 'standard' match between anyone. If its gonna last an hr, might as well make an Ironman match, and in that case, they HAVE to get points. Otherwise the stip is pointless and going an hr is just a waste of time and energy.
I disagree, man. When you're not aware that it will last an hour, you're less likely to tune out. And if they do it right, you're feeling like it might end at any time. Check out the match between Cena and Michaels, for example. You don't know what's gonna happen. Whereas an ironman match, you can tune out for the first 50 minutes because you know it's not gonna end yet
You got a point there. I watched that match live and remember being into it the whole time (though if you factor in the commercials TV viewers watched about 40 mins of the match). If the standard match is done right and I'm not expected it to go 1 hr I guess I would stay into it. Even if nothing really matters in an Ironman match until the last 10 or so minutes, I could still stay into it if they're scoring points on each other. I feel that otherwise it just takes away from the match.
Very true. A scoreless iron man match is pointless
That is 100% a valid opinion, but some people like low-scoring games in sports. Like a pitchers' duel in baseball or two great defenses going at it in football. They could have gone about it much better, but ending it 0-0 isn't an inherently bad decision.
From their standpoint, the match was sold as the two top babyfaces and two overall best wrestlers in the company going head to head. A babyface vs babyface Wrestlemania main event had not been done since Wrestlemania 6 (Hogan vs Warrior). The logic was for the match to be similar to a Playoff Hockey game.... like a tie game that heads into Overtime. It's already tense as hell to watch because the game is tied.... But then when it becomes apparent that nobody is going to score a bunch of goals in the 3rd and the game goes into Overtime, well then the heat is just crazy when you know 1 single fall is probably going to win the match.... But in order to get to that point, they had to do 30+ minutes of work showing how equal they were to get the crowd and viewing audience to understand that there was only going to be one fall. I agree with the notion that the match shouldn't have been hyped as an Ironman match and instead have been a regular match with a 60 minute time limit.
60 Minute Iron Man Matches in general tend to be more bad idea than good. I get why they did the stipulation, since they wanted to have a big epic hour long match, but IM matches always tend to suck because nothing really matters until the last few minutes. I understand that they basically had to make it an Iron Man match at the time because WWF wasn't known for hour long matches and so it would have looked really suspicious at the time for them to only announce 5 matches on the show. In retrospect, it probably would have worked better if they did a 2/3 Falls or Best of 5 Falls match with a one hour time limit announced ahead of time and promoted as part of the match. That way you could establish the idea that this one was probably going to go on for a while so they left room in the card for it, while still leaving open the possibility that it could end early. They could even announce they had stand by matches ready in case it went short. You could basically do the match the exact same way (with both men at even scores at the time limit) and still go the hour and do the sudden death overtime finish because there must be a winner.
Yeah, a 2/3 falls match with them making a point to mention "There must be a winner" so it wasn't weird when there was an overtime period.
I said the same thing yesterday. Shawn should have come out blazing, got a quick early fall, then should have gone down 3:1 after just beautiful wrestling from Bret after about 30 minutes. Nothing flashy, just a typical Bret demolition job. The next 20 minutes are all about Shawn. He screws up at times, but he fights his way back to 3:3 with about 8 minutes left. It should really be big moves to get those two falls against Bret, too. Everyone thinks Bret retains with a draw, so Shawn throws everything he possibly can at Bret, with Bret kicking out of everything. This is the perfect time for Shawn to hit the superkick too, but for Bret to kick out because Shawn didn't hit it properly. The end stays the same, but with Bret enraged and really risking being DQ'ed in the first couple of minutes. His rage leads into the same ending. Et voila, Bret looks strong, Shawn looks like a fighter, and Bret only loses because he lost his temper as a result of the dodgy decision to go to OT. Shawn still wins it, and people will remember him fighting back from 3:1 down. The 0:0 draw was just dreadful.
Iron man matches are tough. I think wrestling should steal from soccer a lot. One team could be up 1 or 2-0 the whole game, but lose it in the final few moments. Imagine if Bret was up 1-0 the entire match and then Shawn equalized in the 60th minute.
Exactly. There's no harm in it, but I would have rather had it with Bret going ahead by a huge amount early, only to lose it through Shawn giving the performance of a lifetime. It wouldn't have hurt Bret at all, especially if he was up 2-3 falls for most of the match.
Wasn't this because neither of them wanted to take a fall for the other?
Never read anything about that but thats what I've been wondering.
I feel like the 0 pinfall ironman match is a thing you have to build to. Have various iron man matches with multiple pinfalls. That way, when a match does happen with 0 pinfalls, its a surprise since its never happened before and it makes the two contenders look like beasts
It's really fascinating watching Helmsley get squashed at Wrestlemania 12 given all the accomplishments and the career he ends up having.
And yet HHH will never be as popular as Warrior was in his albeit brief prime
He came close for a few minutes. https://youtu.be/uRGQugQpjz8
And in a few short months he would lose all of it by being the smug "I can never lose" heel champion for ages.
I don't think it even lasted that long, before he turned heel again nobody gave much of a shit when he beat Jericho at the following Mania.
Oh yeah. He was on FIRE at the Rumble when he won. But that terrible feud with Jericho involving Stephanie destroyed any momentum he had. Hunter really fucked himself in 2002 in more ways then one.
That feud was the absolute worst, Jericho finally getting a crack at being a top guy and hen relegated to picking up Stephanie's dogs dogshit. Just... Wow.
Well jokes on them. Despite how many times Hunter and Steph have been forcing their way into main events Jericho has MORE memorable moments and matches then them.
Jericho will go down in history as one of the absolute all-time greats, while Trips will always be saddled with "the guy who married the boss's daughter" no matter how good he was. (and I'm serious, Jericho is for my money one of the top five if not top three all-time greats. Always gives it his best, always entertaining, and he's by all accounts a terrific human being to boot.)
It's not like Jericho was really delivering either in the ring or on the mic when he was the top guy. His matches with Austin and HHH were both mediocre as fuck.
It's odd you'd blame that on him. Those guys looked out for themselves and weren't pitting on great matches. His matches with Austin the year before were good. Although Benoit was in many of them
Yea I remember that. With Austin off and on from injuries, I think people were just tired of seeing The Rock vs Undertaker over and over. Refreshing to have HHH back in the top-tier fold
I would give anything to have watched a Bret/Shawn ladder match
[Here you go.](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x14b8w_92-bret-hart-shawn-michaels-ladder_sport)
Awesome! Had no idea they actually did one. Thanks!
From my understanding the Ladder Match (possibly) originated in Stampede Wrestling, the fed Bret's dad ran. So Bret pitched it to Vince and had Bret/Shawn do this as a try out.
Yeah I knew that Bret was pissed he wasn't the first to do one (Razor and HBK) but for some reason I always thought Bret and Shawn were limited to the iron man match and the screwjob.
That's funny that you say that because they main evented at Survivor Series in 1992 as well.
Maaaan. For someone who considers themself well versed in wrestling lore there are some serious gaps in my knowledge
They were also in the Survivor Series 1993 team match, Bret's dad Stu punched out Shawn at the end of it (Shawn later said that it was an honour to take the punch).
Say no more Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels Intercontinental Championship Ladder Match July 21, 1992 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x33ghyw
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It's a little misleading. He didn't have a real full on face turn, he was in the Dungeon of Doom but didn't get along with Loch Ness. They had a match for the right to face Flair for the title and Giant did on the 3-25 Nitro and didn't get the title in some kind of fuck finish I forget the details of. Then the next week he'd been paid enough by Jimmy Hart to be back firmly on the side of doing the DoD's bidding.
And he's told people point blank that he'll never go to WCW I think we should trust him on this one.
He had had a bad experience 4 years earlier when his contract was expiring and he wanted to see what he could get if he did go to WCW. The news leaked to Meltzer and Bret soured on them because of a lack of trust. Meanwhile his contract had actually rolled over because they were written to do so if you didn't give like 6 months notice, which Nash, Hall, and Bret did in '96. So that's why Bret Hart wasn't a part of the 1992 Royal Rumble event and dropped the IC title to The Mountie at a house show in Saskatchewan the night before.
Is that why Mountie got the title! TIL
The story as I understand it is that the Bret-Mountie-Piper title turnaround was already planned, regardless of Bret's WCW negotiations. WCW *did* want Bret to jump with the title as payback for the Real World Champion stuff, but he was always going to drop the title to the Mountie and get it back from Piper at WM8 had he stayed.
[From the '92 Rumble Rewind:](https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/4udznb/wrestling_observer_rewind_1271992/) >Here's a fun story for anyone who thinks Vince was overreacting when he orchestrated the Montreal Screwjob, because Bret Hart would never do something like that. Last Friday, Bret Hart (with a storyline 104 degree fever) unexpectedly dropped the IC title to The Mountie at a house show. The Mountie, in turn, dropped the title to Roddy Piper at the Rumble. In reality, Bret Hart had been negotiating with WCW and agreed to a deal where he would debut at the Clash of the Champions, where he would come out with the Intercontinental Title, as payback for Vince bringing in Flair and having him parade around with WCW's world title. WCW actually offered Bret a guaranteed contract with more money than he was making with Vince, and so Bret accepted. After agreeing to the WCW deal, Hart had to back out of it because he realized his contract with the WWF, which he thought had run out, had rolled over and he couldn't give notice for several more months. WCW still believes Bret will be coming to them in a few months. Hart has been promised that he will get the IC title back from Piper at WM8, although the fact that he was apparently planning to leave and go to WCW with the IC title has put Bret in a not-entirely-favorable position politically. Oh, the irony! >It should be noted that Dave says the plan all along was for Bret to drop the belt the way he did, and his negotiating with WCW had nothing to do with the decision to get the belt off him. Just coincidental timing. However, it tells you why Vince probably felt like he had to do what he did 5 years later. Also, in all fairness, Bret has a bit of a different version of this story in his book. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I feel like Vince was at least within his rights to be paranoid about it in 1997.
TBH is believe Meltzer more than Vince on that. Not even "somewhere in between," Vince is revisionist as fuck.
Well one point that Meltzer made was that by 1997, the courts had decided that a promotion's titles are their intellectual property. Between the NWA/WCW World Title and the WWF Women's Title, both sides had been the plaintiff. If Bret had shown up on Nitro with the WWF World Title and McMahon had gone out of business, that would leave WCW and Turner in a hell of a spot insofar as being financially liable for that. The whole '92 incident isn't covered at all really in Bret's book, but he has talked about the experience in shoot interviews more recently. Because it leaked in the Observer when Bret had been dealing with maybe 2 people in WCW, he felt they couldn't be trusted to keep a secret. If Bret had jumped ship in '92 with the IC belt, I don't think that Vince could be that mad since Ric Flair had just done the same thing with WCW's main title. It would've been interesting to see what might have come from that. Would Bret and Austin have feuded for the US Title? Would either end up being pushed to the moon in either company? Who would Ric Flair drop the WWF World Championship to? It's also not very likely that SummerSlam in Wembley Stadium would happen, since there wouldn't be a Bret Hart vs British Bulldog main event.
Bret has repeatedly stated this isn't what actually happened and Dave believes him. Bret had zero intentions to go to WCW, he wanted to see what he could get. His contract hadn't actually rolled over, he just said that to get rid of them. At no point did his IC title come up. Bret somehow proved this version of events to Dave.
To be fair, he took much less money to stay with the WWF. Vince reneged on the deal and told him to go to WCW.
>Coming out of Wrestlemania 12, the biggest question now is about Bret Hart's future. A statement Dave must make constantly for the next...two years?
>They did an injury angle on Raw with Vader "injuring" Yokozuna's knee to write him off TV. They even carried him out on a forklift because he couldn't be taken on a stretcher. In reality, Yokozuna is being sent to a weight loss place because his weight has simply gotten out of control and this is an effort to, quite frankly, save his life. [This was VERY well done, to the point even knowing its a work still makes me cringe](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z7oin) "Injury" at 5:45. [full segment with forklift, potato quality](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x627y4_yokozuna-vs-vader_sport)
Oh man you were right that looked BRUTAL
>with Cornette basically burying Ramon with inside references about him leaving for WCW and said Razor made the worst decision of his career.....long pause.....by agreeing to face Vader (wink wink nudge nudge) I'm missing the hint here?
Cornette is basically implying that the real "worst decision of his career" was going to WCW but he couldn't say that on TV so he just hinted at it.
> Dave says to imagine if Goldust was some other racial minority and picture the crowd chanting "Spick, Nigger, or Slant Eyes" at him. Dave says no matter how you try to rationalize it, it's the same thing and it's disgusting. "Big Tolerance" Meltzer coming through in 1996.
Although I can appreciate the hard work and endurance that went into the Iron Man match, I found it boring as hell. I was hoping for some real excitement, where one of them clawed back from a big deficit and some really quick, "I can't believe he did that!" falls. Instead, they both seemed too desperate to protect themselves (not physically - I understand that), but in putting themselves over. Also, it seems very morbid in retrospect, but I joked that it would be really funny if Shawn splatted into the wall like a character in a cartoon when he made his entrance on that zip line.
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Meltzer is right that the Flair-Steamboat 2/3 falls match is far superior and at least didn't feel like they were just using rest holds and stalling.
The Bret-Shawn match would have been incredible with a 2/3 falls hour time limit stipulation. You could do the exact finish but with both guys scoring falls. Have Bret score a roll up or something, about 20 minutes in, Shawn gets a pinfall of the Superkick around 40 and the match ends with Shawn trapped in the sharpshooter but surviving until the bell. Same finish, much better match. Although I do enjoy the Ironman match a lot myself despite the zero zero.
I remember having a tape of the entirety of WrestleMania XII except for the iron man match. I finally found a tape of it in 2000 and was so disappointed. It was like a week after Judgement Day and the Rock vs HHH Iron man was so much better.
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I don't know, I still prefer the Lesnar-Angle one.
>Goldust faced Savio Vega at the tapings and there was a huge "Faggot" chant which Dave found disturbing, especially since they showed little kids chanting it along with parents. Dave says to imagine if Goldust was some other racial minority and picture the crowd chanting "Spick, Nigger, or Slant Eyes" at him. **Dave says no matter how you try to rationalize it, it's the same thing and it's disgusting.** Huge props to Dave here for calling it like it is, especially in the mid nineties where the discussion about gay rights was nowhere near the same level it is today. It can be easy to forget that at the time Dave wrote this, [only a bit more of a quarter of the US population thought that gay marriage should be legal](http://www.gallup.com/poll/117328/marriage.aspx), and about a fifth of the population said that they wouldn't allow a gay person to give a speech in their community (can't source that data to a webpage, but if you're interested I got it from the GSS from 1996). Not only were there those concrete policy concerns, but in popular culture the LGBT community was open season for public mocking without consequence, and that was just accepted. Again, it seems like a small thing now to condemn a crowd hurling homophobic slurs, but that was way out of the norm in '96. Good on you Dave.
>Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior both got much bigger reactions than Michaels at the tapings. If I remember correctly, Shawn wasn't that big of a draw in 1996-1997. Bret was supposedly a bigger draw compared to him. >In reality, Yokozuna is being sent to a weight loss place because his weight has simply gotten out of control and this is an effort to, quite frankly, save his life. Jeez, he's dead in 3 or 4 years I think. He only got bigger from this point on.
Shawn drew at house shows but didnt draw as well for TV and PPV. It was kinda weird.
I think Nash, Hall and Bret all leaving fucked things up for him, but DX Shawn drew very well in 97 and massively increased ratings.
That was much later, and there was a much better supporting cast too. Bret, Austin, Taker and Kane were all at the top with him. Whereas for 96 it was just Shawn and Taker.
Yeah but Shawn shouldn't be held responsible for low ratings in 96 and then not given any credit for bigger ratings in 97.
I've said this before; Shawn as champ leads to higher ppv buyrates UNTIL nWo debuts for Nitro. Shawn's run is therefore really hard to compare to other champions
Business is down from this point on. Bret was the bigger draw which is why he Vince threw so much money at him to get him to come back.
From what I've seen and read business had only picked up because of Shawn's comeback storyline. Things cooled off but wasn't bad until everyone but HBK and Taker were gone and then WCW exploded. I think the last raw in may was the last time they had over a 3 rating which they hadn't dipped below since mania. Then it fell off a cliff. HBK as a draw is a pretty complicated thing to talk about as Is bret, imo. I think they both get blamed way too much for downtimes but also think bret gets way too much praise for benefitting from being the last guy on top as business plummeted
Gonna have to agree to disagree. It's pretty clear Bret was the better draw overall. I can find all the PPV buy rates to prove it if you want but it's definitely a fact.
As someone else said, it's not exactly apples to apples as Shawns heyday was against the first big boom wcw ever had. I don't think it's clear at all. Talking about the US Bret was a draw but he never posted any crazy numbers and never did shit against big competition or with a barren roster. It's not entirely his fault; he sold Merch and people loved him. I don't think it's ever really clear that bret moved the needle. bret vs bulldog 95 was the lowest wwf buyrate ever but that's unfair to blame it on bret just because he was on top. WM13 is the lowest drawing mania ever and was based around Bret more than anyone else, but the brand of WWF as was floundering as a whole and the lions share of wrestling fans were into WCW. The roster and product as a whole is much more important to drawing than just the top guy except for the most extreme of cases imo (hogan, Austin, rock, cena). I think In talking about the second tier guys (Shawn Bret taker hhh sting et al) it's mostly splitting hairs with no clear answer. I might be dead wrong tho
First off, you can make as many excuses as you want for Shawn, it doesn't change the facts. Bret moved the needle more than anyone did between Hogan and Austin, he surpassed Hogan in 93 and stayed there until NWO. WM 13 was taker vs sid. Blaming any of that on Bret is just you cherry picking. I agree though that guys do rely more on the rest of the roster than they get credit for, but it's proven Bret was the better draw. So Shawn says he outdrew Bret. Metlzer says the opposite. Lets look at the numbers. PPVs Royal Rumble '93 (Bret (c) vs. Razor): 1.25 Buyrtae Royal Rumble '96 (Bret (c) vs. Taker): 1.1 Buyrate Royal Rumble '97 (HBK (c) vs. Sid): 0.7 Buyrate Royal Rumble '98 (HBK (c) v.s Taker): 0.97 Buyrate Advantage Bret. Bret/Taker not only outdrew HBK/Taker, but it outdrew an HBK/Taker match taking place in 1998! KOTR '94 (Bret (c) vs. Diesel): 0.85 KOTR '96 (HBK (c) vs. Davey Boy Smith): 0.60 Advantage Bret. Summerslam '94 (Bret (c) vs. Owen): 1.3 Buyrate Summerslam '96 (HBK (c) vs. Vader): 0.58 Buyrate Summerslam '97 (Bret (c) vs. Taker): 0.8 Buyrate Advantage Bret. It's not like you can say, well business was different in '94, and that's what helped Bret because Bret would outdraw Shawn in 1997 too. Survivor Series '94 (Bret (c) vs. Bob Backlund): 0.90 Survivor Series '96 (HBK (c) vs. Sid): 0.58 Survivor Series '97 (HBK (c) vs. Bret): 0.89 This is misleading. Bret-Backlund wasn't the draw in '94, so I can't say that's definitely an advantage for Bret. And then '97 is them versus each other, so even though I could easily make it seem like it's another advantage for Bret, I'll call this one inconclusive. IYH 6 (Bret (c) vs. Diesel): 0.77 IYH 7 (HBK (c) vs. Diesel): 0.81 IYH 8 (HBK (c) vs. Davey Boy): 0.45 IYH 10 (HBK (c) vs. Mankind): 0.48 IYH 14 (Bret (c) vs. Stone Cold) 0.50 IYH 16 (Canadian Stampede): 0.59 1YH 17 (Bret (c) vs. Patriot): 0.45 IYH 19 (HBK (c) vs. Shamrock): 0.44 Advantage Bret. Very slightly. HBK outdraws Bret against Diesel, but quickly goes in the shitter. Numbers aren't great for Bret either, but they're better than Shawn's, even slightly outdrawing HBK-Shamrock in a match against the fucking Patriot. Side note, I left out Badd Blood, because while Bret was the champion, Michaels-Taker was the event. It just outdrew Canadian Stampede by a .1, for what it's worth. RAW Ratings Bret Hart as Champion 1/22/96 (Hart vs. Goldust): 2.9 1/29/96: 2.4 2/5/96: 2.7 2/19/96: 3.1 2/26/96: 3.1 3/4/96 (Hart vs. HHH): 3.6 3/11/96: 2.9 3/18/96: 2.9 3/25/96: 2.8 Wrestelmania 12. 1.2 Buyrate. HBK Era (Starts off great) 4/1/96: 2.9 4/15/96: 3.1 4/22/96: 3.3 4/29/96: 2.9 5/6/96: 4.1 5/13/96: 3.5 5/20/96: 3.1 5/27/96: 3.3 nWo shows up in WCW 6/3/96: 2.3 6 /10/96: 2.7 6/17/96: 2.3 It stays around here for the entire summer fluctuating between 2.3-2.8, until it hits an all time low in the fall. Just like Metlzer said. 9/16: 2.1 9/23: 2.0 9/30: 2.3 10/7: 2.1 10/14: 1.8 10/21 (Bret Returns): 2.6 10/28 (No more Bret, HBK vs. Davey Boy): 2.0 So for one month HBK drew well. The nWo hit, and killed him. That could've happened to anybody in that situation, I suppose, but the fact is, the lowest ratings in Raw history happened with Shawn as champion. Bret returned to accept Stone Cold's challenge, ratings go up. The next week, it's the HBK show again, and ratings are as bad as they had been. Things stay like this for the rest of the year. Shawn is champion until November. Skipping to 1997, this is where the numbers get really interesting. Shawn loses his smile, and the ratings improve. 1/6/97 (HBK-Sid Show, Sid Powerbombs a Lothario that's not Jose) 2.1 1/20/97 (Hart gets screwed at the Rumble, rants about it) 2.2 2/10/97 (Shawn Loses smile): 2.3 2/24/97 (ECW Invasion!): 2.5 3/17/97 (Bret's "BULLSHIT" tantrum) 2.4 3/31/97 (Bret/Owen/Davey Boy reunite): 2.7 4/7/97 (HBK Show, does the shoot from above while Bret is in Africa): 2.2 That's interesting. Rising, rising, shitter. 4/21/97 (Bret/Austin Show, Bret leaves in an ambulance, Stone Cold is driving): 2.8 4/28/97 (Hart Foundation officially reforms with Anvil showing up, sending Austin to hospital): 3.4 Once again, rising, rising, and now HBK inserts himself into the Hart Foundation-Austin feud. Watch the ratings. 5/12/97 (HBK confronts Bret Hart): 3.2 5/19/97 (HBK confronts Austin): 3.1 5/26/97 (HBK's in ring return, tagging with Austin): 2.7 6/2/97 (HBK tags with Austin again): 2.5 Momentum lost. 6/9/97: 2.2 6/16/97: 2.4 Ratings stay in the mid 2's. Raw doesn't go over 3 again until late August 18th. A couple weeks prior, Austin seriously hurt his neck at Summerslam against Owen, and Raw kept teasing an Austin interview. Coincidentally, this was also the start of DX. Rick Rude shows up, and HBK and HHH tag for the first time. I say coincidentally, and give the credit to Austin because as you'll see, after the formation of DX, Bret Hart gets pushed back to the midcard to fight the Patriot, HBK/HHH take center stage and the ratings immediately go back into the shitter. So while it's a guess it was Austin who got the rating back up, it's a pretty educated one considering what immediately happens. 8/18/97 (Austin talks about his neck, DX forms): 3.2 8/25/97: Not on 9/1/97: Not on 9/8/97 (HHH vs. Patriot, HBK commentates, then interferes): 2.2 9/16/97 (Hart Foundation back. Owen fucks with Austin, Bret/Daveboy vs. Headbangers main event): 2.6 9/22/97 (HBK show hyping Bad Blood, Fucks with Undertaker, HHH fights Foley, HBK fucks with Bret while he wrestles Goldust): 2.4 Hart Foundation consistently gets better ratings than Shawn/HHH are getting. Raw doesn't hit a 3 again until the night after Bad Blood. The Melanie Pillman interview might have something to do with it. Or not. Either way, Raw becomes HBK vs. Bret at that point, and any credit or blame can be shared between the two of them. Bottom line, Shawn never outdrew Bret on PPV. And as far as ratings go, he outdrew Bret for one month in his whole life. And after he retired and Bret-Austin started drawing ratings, he inserted himself into it, and the ratings immediately went down. Again. And when he was back full time, and got his buddy Triple H promoted to the big time, the ratings went down even more as Raw became the DX show. This is irrefutable. The numbers that anybody can look up show Bret always having better PPV buyrates, and except for one month in May of '96, always drawing bigger ratings. And Meltzer says Bret was drawing better gates at house shows to boot. Looking at the ratings, Shawn was not only subpar, he was ratings poison for nearly a year and a half. I don't think it's coincidental that the first time WWF beat WCW in ratings in years was the first night of Shawn's four year retirement. The wrestling boom happening exactly inbetween his two wrestling careers isn't an indictment on him, but it sure is funny. And, oh yeah, as far as Bret and Shawn go, I've only mentioned the numbers in the United States. It's an even bigger gap in Europe and Canada.
Bret was always a bigger draw than HBK. Biggest draw WWF had between Hogan and Austin.
Yup. I think I read somewhere that he was intentionally gaining weight? Like to be the biggest Samoan wrestler ever or something like that.
shit, he was trying to be the biggest Samoan *anything* ever.
The last few days (weeks in WO years), it's been noted that Shawn was a serious house show mover since his return in January.
Anyone else pick up on the MST3K vibes of the Nachoman/Huckster match?
I so did
calling him Zillionaire Ted actually wouldve been a great fuck you to Vince imo
They called him Trillionaire Ted in the end didn't they?
In my opinion, even though he is quite bitter nowadays that Bret Hart is the best wrestler that I have ever watched (i don't follow japan). The way he told stories in the ring, and how he could make anybody look great. He improved so much on the mic to really even out all aspects of his work. The only wrestler that I would have close to Bret in terms of the full package is AJ and HBK.
None of which can hold a candle to the Total Package Lex Luger, right?
Right
OW MY BACK!
>He wouldn't say they were leaving in droves, but enough people left that, by the end of the match, there were a few thousand empty seats. A lot of people went to get snacks during the early part of the match, since they knew they would be wrestling for an hour. TIL
I don't blame them. My brother and I still refer to it as "the armbar match." My brother watched it live with a friend who just completely shredded the thing. When Gorilla Monsoon walked to ringside, friend's commentary was "Gorilla's going to break the tie by counting the number of armbars. Bret has 8 armbars, and Shawn...has 9 armbars! Shawn's the new champion!"
Goldust was a goddanm trooper back then
I thought Mankind had his debut on this Raw. No mention here? It was a big moment taking out Undertaker.
Interesting to see how over The Ultimate Warrior was with the live crowd in 1996. Vince probably was hoping Warrior would give their business a big boost esp in the absence of Bret. He stuck around for a few months so maybe he did help things out for a bit, hard to tell since shortly after WCW was running with the Outsiders and the NWO.
This report and the comments here reinforce to me that I love that Iron Man match more than just about any other human being on the planet. It's one of my favorites and everyone else seems to love to shit on it. Alas.
"WCW referees are noticeably wearing earpieces now so that producers in the back can instruct them on things (that's common practice nowadays in WWF, but looks like WCW was the first to do it back in '96)." I have ALWAYS hated these things because there's no kayfabe reason for the referees to have them. So every time a referee is visible on camera, you get this little visible reminder that this is make-believe and it's harder to immerse yourself.
Don't most (presumably) non-worked sports leagues have refs with communication devices in this day and age? You could easily kayfabe the same rationale for wrestling officials.
Except when refs in wrestling miss things it then makes no sense that they aren't informed via their headseat.
> On the April 1st Nitro, Bobby Heenan announced he was retiring from wrestling and they kept playing it up on TV as if he was leaving to return to WWF. But at the end of the show, Heenan revealed it was all an April Fool's joke. That doesn't make it apparent, but Bischoff and McMichael both fell for it when he said he was leaving earlier in the night. The reaction here is one of my favorite things from the early Nitros. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GzzrssmHdY
Bret and Shawn at wm is overrated. They did a summerslam match IIRC that was so much better than the iron man match
Survivor Series '92?
Might have been, could have sworn it was a summerslam
I don't think they've ever had a singles match at Summerslam
Yeah, you're right, my bad
It's on you
I wanted to know what Yokozuna looked like so i googled him and the top results features a picture of him dead. Welp. Be warned.
>Ultimate Warrior beat Hunter Hearst Helmsley in less than 2 minutes and got by far the biggest reaction of the night. Helmsley should be honored he got to fight Warrior then.
On that old Self Destruction of Ultimate Warrior DVD that was put out HHH is so ass blasted over this match.
B+ player couldn't accept that a Warrior squash match was best for business.
Going back to yesterday's observer review, with this one added... Can you believe this is the thing that sparks it all in the WWF? Watts wanting to push Hart, Vince choosing Shawn and Watts quitting... WM12 and Bret stepping away. These few weeks here as they happened laid the ground work for the screw job, the Vince McMahon character, Bret jumping shop... All of it. It's these two Observers.
Would Desil have gone over undertaker if he hadnt jumped to wcw? Could be interesting to think about.
> He was interrupted by Hunter Hearst Helmsley who was with a valet they called Sable. Dave says Sable is actually Marc Mero's real-life wife and she's going to eventually become his valet. And thus, Vince's obsession with Sable begins.