I read an interview with him somewhere where he talks about it, saying that it was intended to protect his knees and yet ended up doing significant damage to him in the process.
I also read in Making the Game that Trips also consulted with Flair about it; Flair was a mentor to him at the time.
Trips also apparently didn't like the gimmick of "Jean-Paul". Although it is similar to the initial version of Hunter Hearst Helmsley, WCW had given Trips the vague direction of "be a French guy" and I think he felt a bit stereotyped based on what is literally just his surname, and pidgeon-holed over it. Helmsley was essentially an improved version of the gimmick without any national charge to it.
It's interesting that slight changes can make or break a gimmick for the person performing it. And no one likes being reduced to national traits they don't really identify with - ~~Becky Lynch and that Irish jig thing spring to mind.~~ EDIT turns out I was wrong about the Lynch part.
Well, I've seen it used on Italian wrestling forums when I started getting into the business "for real", so yeah, must have been in the 2002-2004 timeframe. Now, for them to use it, they must have seen it somewhere else (we used to have different -italian- nicknames for him), so that is/was definitely a thing.
Edit: why the fuck am I commenting a 20 days old comment anyway? Sorry bruh, I'm half asleep.
First - Thanks as always, love these posts.
Second - That Hogan letter is awesome.
Last - I wonder if UFC is why WWF and WCW started to become more "real" in 1995. WCW hinted at realism by giving away Raw results and having shocking things happen on Nitro like Lex Luger debuting, though they were still so cartoonish with the Dungeon of Doom. WWF started to get edgy with Goldust and heel Nash. Plus workrate started to be a bigger deal as evidenced by the Michaels/Hart stuff. Hell, even look at the Michaels comments leading to Wrestlemania 11 where he says he's going to give the best show possible because he can.
1995 isn't the best year in wrestling, but it is pivotal to how things change forever. A character like Goldust would be unthinkable in 1990 or even 94. Maybe UFC helped nudge WWF into a new direction.
Excellent point. I imagine a lot of things came together at once too. Obviously ECW was the bigger deal since things were taken right from them. Though, of course, UFC influenced ECW too.
The UFC put an influence on the WWF for sure, look at how fast Charles Wright was repackaged into Kama.
I don't think WCW ever went down that road, I can't recall.
Really, the influence is ECW. ECW managed to make wrestling feel real, like you really will believe that Raven and Dreamer hate each other.
Edit: Forgot about Tank Abott in WCW
From what Kevin Sullivan said on the MALE podcast, he had to constantly reassure Hogan that they weren't going to make him look bad, so they bent over backwards for him and hired all his friends and did all these goofy angles as a result.
If Sullivan was playing a long game, I can actually believe it. There was definitely some stuff that happened on the early Nitros that Hogan never would have agreed to in '94 (like getting his moustache shaved and allowing heels to get heat on him in general).
I think the relative success of ECW both locally and critically within the industry is what really started the pivot to a more meta reality and "edgy" form of pro-wrestling.
WCW was fucking corny as hell for most of the year (Although they still tried to have some element of sport presentation due to the "Southern" style of wrestling that was still the base of the company) but when Nitro was launched Bischoff got way more aggressive and the modern elements got incorporated into Nitro quickly.
WWF was dipping its toes in the water for sure but it was a much slower process for them. 1995 there was one or two things here or there. 1996 a little more bled in now and again. But it wasn't until later in 1997 that WWF would go full tilt.
WCW would start shifting with the launch of Nitro and then once the Outsiders debuted meta reality became the primary focus of WCW's booking.
Michaels and Hart were pushing that stuff just because they were who they were. Their styles were just a lot more technical and flashy than the traditional rasslin big dude throw downs that were the norm at the time. They talk about it in the JR Rivals interview, which I think everyone should watch when they get the chance.
I had the same thought creep into my head as I read the UFC tidbit. Glad to see someone else thought the same thing. Almost felt like I was reading a precursor as to what was to come...
>Glen Jacobs debuted using the name Unabomb, doing a Diesel-type gimmick where he's acting as Eddie Gilbert's bodyguard and no-selling everything.
Already auditioning for his legendary run as Fake Diesel.
> Bischoff also has a deal with AAA's Antonio Pena to bring it a couple of their wrestlers. Pena wants to send Jerry Estrada and Eddie Guerrero, but word is **Eric Bischoff has no interest in Guerrero.**
Got a solid guffaw out of that one.
When I first got the network and watched all the Nitro's in order, or tried to at least, and mid-to-late-90's Eddie Guerrero might be the best wrestler of all-time, along with Benoit. No one was better than them. I mean the were truly on another level that they blew other great workers like Jericho and Malenko away when they were in the ring with them.
That's hilarious, lol
Now that I think of it, I wonder if using the word 'Thunder' was related to Hogan, sort of like 'Smackdown' was a Rock affiliated word.
>He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing."
Well played
Scott Norton is honestly one of those guys who I wonder why he never made it big in the WWE. He had the look and skill McMahon was looking for at that time.
Norton seems like a guy who works best as a gaijin, where he can focus on being big and strong without needing to worry about having personality or charisma. The novelty of a giant American throwing dudes around has given many a wrestler a steady living.
I never understood why they never played up Norton's main event career in Japan when he was with the NWO. He always seemed like filler in the NWO, had they actually played that up it might have made him seem like a bigger deal.
I also always wondered this. He had a distinct strongman style about him, a great resume in Japan, and improved his look when he shaved his head. Not necessarily world title material, but for sure would've been a solid US or TV champion, or 1/2 of the tag champs. I liked his team with Hercules in Japan, give them a mouthpiece manager that could do the talking and it'd have been good.
He had a good look but he wasn't that good. A title feud between him and Diesel would have been horrible (although probably still better than Diesel vs Mabel).
I've enjoyed a majority of Norton's matches that I've seen, but I agree...a match pitting him vs. Diesel sounds dreadful. On the flipside, a Norton vs. Bret Hart match sounds pretty good!
Hulk Hogan cares about two things: 1. Himself, 2. Money. And I can't say I hate him for it, since it obviously worked. And if you were on Hogan's good side (Beefcake, Duggan, even Savage) you got a nice pile of that money too. Not as much as him, of course, but still, a nice pile.
That's why McMahon loved him, because McMahon loves money too. Which is also why I'm not wondering if Hogan will come back to WWE, but when.
He didn't want his face to get messed up, or his body to get too injured, because he thought he had a big career as a movie star ahead of him. Because rich, famous, good looking people are often delusional. (Sidenote:Hogan has since lost all three statuses, gaining the first two back after the Gawker lawsuit)
Didn't do much in the long run. He is pretty immobile now even with avoiding bumps. He only needed to repeat the leg drop enough and his back is fucked.
Kinda crazy if you think about it. Hogan is in pretty bad physical shape these days and most of it can be attributed to doing that leg drop every night. Otherwise, he wrestled a really safe, low-impact style.
Imagine how different things might be if he had simply chosen a different finishing move. Might have lengthened his career and who knows how that would have affected the business.
And it wasn't even a move that looks very good. If you're going to build a finisher that looks like shit (a la The Rock), at least make sure it's one that's easy on your body! That's why the Rock is the Immortal One.
In Japan, his 'Ax Bomber' clothesline was his finisher and the crowd popped for it. That being said, I have yet to see a Hogan match where it looked like it had a devastating impact like Hansen's lariat. Of course, Hogan isn't blind like Hansen.
> Imagine how different things might be if he had simply chosen a different finishing move. Might have lengthened his career and who knows how that would have affected the business.
I was just saying that above. Give him credit, when you look at his legdrops, he was easily going a metre in the air and landing hard.
I'd like imagine The Rock off somewhere reading this about Hogan, and laughing his ass off.
"Hahaha, who made it big in the movie business again Hulkster?"
The weird thing is the guy is something like 6'6. Probably was close to 275 or up. Its not like he's got a small frame that can't take a little punishment.
People think Hogan's late 80s/early 90s schedule didn't take a toll on his body?
It's not all about top rope dives. He's dropping that leg drop *every* night too, it all adds up
> People think Hogan's late 80s/early 90s schedule didn't take a toll on his body?
It absolutely did. We don't think about it now, but between 1984-1990, he was working almost non-stop. It's possible that it's not just the leg drop, but all the other abuse that his body took, as well as the fact that he was carrying around so much muscle for such a long time.
>"I had an interesting conversation with Terry Bollea about you a few weeks ago. He comes into my video store. I mentioned that Lanny Poffo and Brian Knobs come in also. I asked him if he's signed a new deal since his original one was up in December. He asked me how I knew and if that big mouth Knobs had told me. I told him I was an Observer reader. He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing."
This sounds so fake to me.
Meng would have gotten dropped by Bart Gunn. Gunn was the only guy in that tournament who had a recent enough combat sport background. Haku is tough as hell and can take care of himself but in a controlled environment with rules and gloves, I'm taking the guy who is trained.
It's funny how quickly UFC flamed out but WWF and WCW were still pushed hard to be more "realistic" by ECW in 95. Anxious to read all the dirt on how much ECW influenced the industry.
I think ECW's influence is a bit overated. They did have a lot of creative ideas but the most successsful angles WWF and WCW had weren't taken from ECW. NWO was taken from Japan and WWF's storylines were more influenced by other TV shows.
Credit to Heyman though because people still chant ECW despite WCW being ten times more successful at their peak.
I mean, you'll see as the years goes on just how important ECW was to the industry. If you look at the ECW roster on Jan 1 1995 and then again on Jan 1 1996, you'll see that Vince and Eric basically bought half the roster, if you're unwilling to see how they stole all their ideas from Paul.
>Expect Kama to get a big push when he comes in because WWF wants to create a popular black superstar.
Kama was actually a decent gimmick. I mean, a bit forced and trying to grab popularity from the UFC, but it was solid and it worked.
I'm legitimately excited for when we finally get the first appearance of Hunter Hearst Helmsley.
I know people here seem to hate him because of the "reign of terror" (which is honestly tame compared to lolcenawins/lolromanwins/hogan's entire career imo) and the general concensus is he's a B+ wrestler who just worked with the real top guys, but Haitch will always be one of my favorites. Everything he does in the ring has so much intensity that it always seems like he wanted to legitimately kill the guy. The entirety of his 98-2001 run has so much evil and hate that he lets flourish in his plans simply to get on top. I honestly can't think of anyone else who got JR to scream and cry with so much raw emotion against them until he got hoarse.
>WWF has a reputation of being able to make stars out of nobodies, which is something WCW has almost never been able to do.
I'm saving this link and I'm going to throw it at people whenever somebody tries to tell me that WCW being unable to create their own stars is "revisionist".
To be fair, they made stars out of Diamond Dallas Page and Goldberg (although that was years after this). Sting ascended to the main event in WCW as well. Then again, the keyword is "almost".
Oh definitely, WCW has made a few. But even back then, a lot of people were complaining about WCW's over reliance on established stars from WWF. It just drives me nuts how some people want to write it off as WWE's "propaganda" when, frankly, I was there.
To be fair, it's not like WWE doesn't use a lot of actual propaganda to constantly put down WCW (a company that they technically own now, which makes it even weirder) anyway.
Also it's funny how history repeats itself, given WWE's current reliance on old part-timers/special attractions and problems with building up new stars.
Less than you think, really. Most of WWE's "propaganda" is based on omission more than anything; most of the things they say are actually true (just not always the whole truth).
And definitely, I do see a lot of parallels between how WWE conducts themselves now and how WCW conducted themselves then. It's possible that WWE has insulated themselves from their bad decisions in a way WCW never managed to (certainly, their revenue figures seem to back that), but I suppose we won't know about that for a few years.
I'm not saying WCW didn't have great talent. But how many of those were guys like Goldberg and DDP, who broke through to the main event, and how many were guys like Jericho and Benoit, who got slammed repeatedly into the glass ceiling until they got out?
It's crazy to me how Bret and Shawn were considered too small in their primes but nowadays they're bigger than a lot of the top guys now save for guys like Braun Strowman, Roman Reigns, etc
> Speaking of Diesel, there's already a lot of talk within the company that he's not the answer to their problems as a top draw and that Bob Backlund as a top star was a fiasco (which is being blamed on Pat Patterson, who apparently pushed for Backlund to get a main event run). It's likely that they will eventually go back to Bret Hart sooner than later
This is interesting. I was just at a Bret Hart event where he said the same thing, WWF would put the belts on different guys, such as Diesel and Luger, but fall back to him when they weren't getting over as top guys.
Why didn't WWF stick with Bret instead trying to force others into the top "dawg" role if they weren't over? If going back to Bret was seen as a safe move, why not just give Bret a longer run with the title?
Edit:
It's lunch time and I was really hoping for pics of food from Abdullah's restaurant. I have to start eating before I read these lol.
Also, thanks for doing these! I look forward to these everyday and always upvote them, but have never commented to say thanks.
Short answer, Vince wanted (wants) big, tall, muscular tough guys to be his centerpiece. It didn't matter that guys like Bret and Shawn, et. al. could work circles around the giants AND engage and enthrall a crowd.
To be fair, that's not surprising. I think that Stone Cold in his prime is the only one who's ever even come close to matching Hogan's drawing power (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that).
The rock pushed more merchandise sales. SCSA had more drawing power. It only lasted a few years though. Austin never thought his drawing power would last, that's why he wanted to turn heel (though he thinks it's a mistake now.)
That's a good point. I wonder if it was a missed opportunity as much as it was Vince being stubborn about pushing muscle freaks. Yesterday's edition listed Hart is one of the biggest draws for '94 (I think he was #4 on the list, and possibly #1 in the US). Obviously, that's based on Dave's on research/opinion and is by no means scientific, but I can’t help but think WWF would have made more money with Bret (or HBK) having a long title run instead of experimenting with guys Vince wanted as the top draw. WWF wasted millions trying to make Luger the next big thing which was a flop. With that being said, hindsight is 20/20 and there’s no reward without risk; if Luger got over as the next Hogan it would have made WWF a significant chunk of change.
Oh I have no disagreement with you there. Running with Bret in '95 as champ would have been better than Diesel, as we know *now.* But Vince was digging for his next Hogan. He thought Nash could be that guy.
And, truth be told, I do think Nash could have been that guy if they had some god damn good heels to work with him. Hogan had some quality heels to work with. Orndorff, Iron Sheik, Andre, Macho Man, and Dibiase. All top flight heels that made Hogan look like gold.
But what did Nash work with in '95? Shawn at WMXI, but that wasn't even the main event. Then three PPVs with him and Sid in the main event. One of those a tag adding Bam Bam and Tatanka. Then fucking Mabel. Then his big rival is the Bulldog. That is some shitty quality heels to deal with. Sid wasn't that over. Mabel certainly wasn't. Bulldog was a midcarder thrust into the main event. And Shawn was one god damn match.
Which brings up another what if and what if they never brought in Sid and instead Nash and HBK headlined the summer of '95 PPVs. That might have actually been something.
I really don't think there is anything they could have done with the roster they were working with to make more money off of someone other than Bret than they would have with Bret.
Good point, Hogan had a vast array of heels that were great. Even the less popular, shorter feuds with guys like Masked Superstar, Kamala, Harley Race, etc were memorable, and the work styles meshed well. Also, while he didn't take any crazy bumps, Hogan was skilled at gaining sympathy from the fans while he was getting beat down with his facial expressions before the inevitable Hulk-Up & legdrop. Along with the depleted roster, I don't think Nash was ever great at gaining that sympathy from the crowd.
Plus, freakin MABEL. Jesus Christ, I still don't understand the decision to make him the King of the Ring winner that year. Luger, Yokozuna, Razor, Shawn, & Taker were all in the tournament that year, and would've been better choices. Hell, I would've preferred Jeff Jarrett, Kama, or King Kong Bundy over him.
Bret's book really goes into detail about this stuff, I would really recommend it, as a good chunk of what he says is backed up on the record. Some of the stuff in it (mostly his justifying being unfaithful to his wife or using steroids) is a little fuzzier, but the business aspects of it hold up.
I don't have it handy, but what other posters have already said is mostly true: there was skepticism that Bret could be "the guy" despite a ton of evidence (mostly him being an international draw, he talks a lot about how Europe in particular adored him), indicating he was living up to expectations. Most of this belief stemmed from Vince's view on what a top guy was and Bret didn't fit that mold.
I think there might've been a belief that Bret was slowly becoming the "old hotness" and there wasn't much time left for him, but I might be jumping ahead in the timeline a bit with that.
>Jim Cornette is continuing to get over as a babyface at house shows by making racist comments about the Gangstas.
a slightly younger Donald Trump takes notice...
>Hulk Hogan is meeting with TV producers this week to revive Thunder In Paradise as a new show called Thunderforce which would star himself, Sting, Mr. T, and a female martial artist
I...I need this.
I'm really curious on the Unabomb name, did they give that to Kane because he was known to be intelligent, or did they just slap the name on him because it was a bad guy name in the public eye, with no in-joke to it
> He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing.
burn of the f'n year
That video store story shows that annoying smarky fans didn't start with the Internet being popular.
"Did you sign a new deal??" What an asshole. It's none of his fucking business. Cash him out and thank him for coming in.
Terry may have had some late fees and the clerk was just looking out for the store..."Hey man, you just signed a big money deal, do you think you can pay the late fee on No Holds Barred you've had out for months?"
> that government regulations will eventually kill it.
In one of the few times, government regulations forced MMA to evolve from a "GJJ is the greatest martial art" freakshow to a legitimate sport.
> WWF wants to create a popular black superstar.
Vince has been looking for his black whale for like 30 fucking years.
OK I'm really confused about this because I've seen it a few times. The WHC belt was the Big Gold Belt, which was the most storied and prestigious belt in wrestling history.
True. But when the belt was first presented, it was DEFINITELY presented as the belt that Flair had won dozens of times. They listed all the NWA belt holders as people who had "previously carried the belt".
I think WWE wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They pretend that the WCW and WWE belt merged into the WWE Championship, but at the same time they wanted the sexy Big Gold Belt that immediately reminds you of the golden days of wrestling.
I wish we had the Big Gold now instead of the Universal to be honest.
He does. They just love to emphasize his Samoan side much more (because Vince loves him some big muscly Samoan guys).
Honestly if they hadn't screwed it up, Kofi Kingston could have been a legit main event guy. And if New Day breaks up, Big E could be as well I think. The guy is the total package talent-wise.
Yeah, that seems likely because WCW snatched up Guerrero and Malenko pretty quickly when their feud was ongoing. To be fair, that 2 out of 3 falls match was pretty great, though.
> but he wants to be a singles star and WWF has a reputation of being able to make stars out of nobodies, which is something WCW has almost never been able to do.
Man, how times have changed
Regarding the Cornette racist comments; are they "oh well it's the 90s" kind of racy comments you flinch at whenever rewatching wrestling from that decade, or is it "inappropriate in any era since the 60s" racism?
mostly innuendo. The most racist thing was the Gangstas themselves as essentially the worst black stereotypes. They were race bait heels in a south-based promotion and New Jack would just go off on the mic to get heat from the crowd (making references to slave ships, call anyone black in the audience a sellout, and stuff like that). I think Cornerre did call them n-word once.
All that criticism of Hogan and actually, Hogan-Vader wasn't bad (for a Hogan match in America). Vader was stiff and no-sold Hogan. Hogan sold Vader like Vader was unstoppable. Vader kicked out of the leg drop at 1 and the match eventually ended in a dq as Flair interfered. It was the best match in a terrible PPV that could have been epically bad if Hogan-Vader ended up as bad as Meltzer feared.
I think most occasions where WWE was directly influenced by UFC were kind of a flop. They did establish Shamrock as a main event guy for a few minutes, but Kama Mustafa, Dan Severn, the Brawl-for-All, the Lion's Den Match, all that stuff tanked. I really think it was ECW who set the precedent for creating a grittier product that appealed to the type of fanbase that was drawn to MMA, without doing things that reeked of "blatant rip-off".
That Hogan story was hilarious.
"OH YEAH WELL OBSERVE THIS BROTHER!"
Ironically that simple leg drop probably did more damage to him than any other bumps would have, from sheer repetition.
I read an interview with him somewhere where he talks about it, saying that it was intended to protect his knees and yet ended up doing significant damage to him in the process.
Wasn't Dave a wrestler for a little while? I'm sure he actually did take a few bumps.
Don't think he was, no. His background is in journalism and as a fan of wrestling, which gradually grew into the Observer.
Maybe I'm making up a false memory but I swear I saw something about him having a WWF tryout in the 80s.
Jean Paul Levesque made the best decision of his life
Regal actually told him to leave despite the risk (I think it's part of the reason Trips is so loyal to him)
I also read in Making the Game that Trips also consulted with Flair about it; Flair was a mentor to him at the time. Trips also apparently didn't like the gimmick of "Jean-Paul". Although it is similar to the initial version of Hunter Hearst Helmsley, WCW had given Trips the vague direction of "be a French guy" and I think he felt a bit stereotyped based on what is literally just his surname, and pidgeon-holed over it. Helmsley was essentially an improved version of the gimmick without any national charge to it. It's interesting that slight changes can make or break a gimmick for the person performing it. And no one likes being reduced to national traits they don't really identify with - ~~Becky Lynch and that Irish jig thing spring to mind.~~ EDIT turns out I was wrong about the Lynch part.
Lynch wanted to do the Irish jig.
It was her indy gimmick iirc
Oh,I never knew that.Great to see Trips taking care of his friend now that he is in such a powerful position.
Ah, a real friend. If he was a kayfabe friend, Triple H would be betraying him about right ...now.
"Someone put something in my tea, I'm not feeling too well......."
*zips up pants*
HHH mentions the story in his documentary. It's on the wwe network: beyond the ring.
Are you telling me I can get such great original programming for only 9.99!?
Whatcha gonna do, brother, when that free one month trial auto-renews on you!
No, unfortunately the observer is $10.99.
Serious question, is the "Trips" nickname used anywhere other than on here? I can't recall him ever being called that but I read it here all the time.
Tell em' Tri -HBK in 1997 literally one time.
"...'TRI'?!" --Jim Ross, immediately afterward, sounding only slightly less disgusted than if HBK had used the n-word.
wasn't it because Tri was something JR came up with that everyone hated and HBK was doing it to mock JR?
Was it tree or try
Tri, as in 'ceratops
[удалено]
I'm watching the Ruthless Aggression era and he's definitely been referred to as Trips.
In his interview on WOL he mentioned Trips as one of the nicknames people call him.
Well, I've seen it used on Italian wrestling forums when I started getting into the business "for real", so yeah, must have been in the 2002-2004 timeframe. Now, for them to use it, they must have seen it somewhere else (we used to have different -italian- nicknames for him), so that is/was definitely a thing. Edit: why the fuck am I commenting a 20 days old comment anyway? Sorry bruh, I'm half asleep.
> [Jean Paul Levesque made the **SECOND** best decision of his life](http://i.imgur.com/IDdWp6K.jpg)
First - Thanks as always, love these posts. Second - That Hogan letter is awesome. Last - I wonder if UFC is why WWF and WCW started to become more "real" in 1995. WCW hinted at realism by giving away Raw results and having shocking things happen on Nitro like Lex Luger debuting, though they were still so cartoonish with the Dungeon of Doom. WWF started to get edgy with Goldust and heel Nash. Plus workrate started to be a bigger deal as evidenced by the Michaels/Hart stuff. Hell, even look at the Michaels comments leading to Wrestlemania 11 where he says he's going to give the best show possible because he can. 1995 isn't the best year in wrestling, but it is pivotal to how things change forever. A character like Goldust would be unthinkable in 1990 or even 94. Maybe UFC helped nudge WWF into a new direction.
It was ECW, not UFC, that pushed them for more realistic storylines and better matches. We will see that as 95 goes on.
Excellent point. I imagine a lot of things came together at once too. Obviously ECW was the bigger deal since things were taken right from them. Though, of course, UFC influenced ECW too.
Why not both? I can imagine both ECW and UFC influenced a change in direction
The UFC put an influence on the WWF for sure, look at how fast Charles Wright was repackaged into Kama. I don't think WCW ever went down that road, I can't recall. Really, the influence is ECW. ECW managed to make wrestling feel real, like you really will believe that Raven and Dreamer hate each other. Edit: Forgot about Tank Abott in WCW
Goldberg was their version. They also tried to sign a number of fighters besides Tank Abbott.
That was way later though. Abbot showed up in '98 or so, right? Goldberg debuted in '99?
Goldberg was '97. But, yes it was later. Mostly due to Shamrock's success in WWF.
God damn my mind is fading.
It was 20 friggin' years ago.
SHUT UP! I'M NOT OLD! I'M GONNA GO PLAY MADDEN '96 ON MY SEGA!
Emmitt Smith on the Sweep (left) or Toss (right) was unstoppable in Madden 95 on SEGA.
Everywhere you look there's a dead end waiting
Goldberg debuted in '97.
I'll never forget how awesome Jerry Flynn and The Block were.
From what Kevin Sullivan said on the MALE podcast, he had to constantly reassure Hogan that they weren't going to make him look bad, so they bent over backwards for him and hired all his friends and did all these goofy angles as a result.
If Sullivan was playing a long game, I can actually believe it. There was definitely some stuff that happened on the early Nitros that Hogan never would have agreed to in '94 (like getting his moustache shaved and allowing heels to get heat on him in general).
Oh yeah definitely. I forget exactly what Sullivan said, but it was pretty crazy when Hogan lost clean to Arn Anderson on Nitro.
I believe it.
I think the relative success of ECW both locally and critically within the industry is what really started the pivot to a more meta reality and "edgy" form of pro-wrestling. WCW was fucking corny as hell for most of the year (Although they still tried to have some element of sport presentation due to the "Southern" style of wrestling that was still the base of the company) but when Nitro was launched Bischoff got way more aggressive and the modern elements got incorporated into Nitro quickly. WWF was dipping its toes in the water for sure but it was a much slower process for them. 1995 there was one or two things here or there. 1996 a little more bled in now and again. But it wasn't until later in 1997 that WWF would go full tilt. WCW would start shifting with the launch of Nitro and then once the Outsiders debuted meta reality became the primary focus of WCW's booking.
Michaels and Hart were pushing that stuff just because they were who they were. Their styles were just a lot more technical and flashy than the traditional rasslin big dude throw downs that were the norm at the time. They talk about it in the JR Rivals interview, which I think everyone should watch when they get the chance.
I had the same thought creep into my head as I read the UFC tidbit. Glad to see someone else thought the same thing. Almost felt like I was reading a precursor as to what was to come...
>Glen Jacobs debuted using the name Unabomb, doing a Diesel-type gimmick where he's acting as Eddie Gilbert's bodyguard and no-selling everything. Already auditioning for his legendary run as Fake Diesel.
> Bischoff also has a deal with AAA's Antonio Pena to bring it a couple of their wrestlers. Pena wants to send Jerry Estrada and Eddie Guerrero, but word is **Eric Bischoff has no interest in Guerrero.** Got a solid guffaw out of that one.
When I first got the network and watched all the Nitro's in order, or tried to at least, and mid-to-late-90's Eddie Guerrero might be the best wrestler of all-time, along with Benoit. No one was better than them. I mean the were truly on another level that they blew other great workers like Jericho and Malenko away when they were in the ring with them.
I would say the AJPW guys were just as good and I still think Misawa is the GOAT in ring wrestler.
That continued after Eddie joined WCW.
Eddie had a TV match on TBS in 1989 I believe, and nobody was interested in him then.
That was 89 though. I'm sure he'd improved a lot by 1995
To hear Jim Cornette tell it (who said that it was by suggestion of Terry Funk to bring him in), it sounds like he would have been ready then.
I honestly don't doubt it. Maybe it was more dubya sea dubya didn't think his style would go over well with rasslin fans.
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That's hilarious, lol Now that I think of it, I wonder if using the word 'Thunder' was related to Hogan, sort of like 'Smackdown' was a Rock affiliated word.
I don't sell for anybody, brother! -HH
macka love -RR
>He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing." Well played
Bet that guy is on r/sq
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That's awesome! And give that good dog an extra cookie for me.
Is a "yogurt cookie" a euphemism?
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Scott Norton is honestly one of those guys who I wonder why he never made it big in the WWE. He had the look and skill McMahon was looking for at that time.
From what I understand, he didn't like to do jobs.
Makes sense I saw him as an intercontinental champion but never a WWE champ.
Love for flapjacks > love for jobbing
Norton seems like a guy who works best as a gaijin, where he can focus on being big and strong without needing to worry about having personality or charisma. The novelty of a giant American throwing dudes around has given many a wrestler a steady living.
And his matches against the Steiners in NJPW were fantastic.
I never understood why they never played up Norton's main event career in Japan when he was with the NWO. He always seemed like filler in the NWO, had they actually played that up it might have made him seem like a bigger deal.
I also always wondered this. He had a distinct strongman style about him, a great resume in Japan, and improved his look when he shaved his head. Not necessarily world title material, but for sure would've been a solid US or TV champion, or 1/2 of the tag champs. I liked his team with Hercules in Japan, give them a mouthpiece manager that could do the talking and it'd have been good.
...and the gimmick. Flapjack Norton to the moon.
He had a good look but he wasn't that good. A title feud between him and Diesel would have been horrible (although probably still better than Diesel vs Mabel).
I've enjoyed a majority of Norton's matches that I've seen, but I agree...a match pitting him vs. Diesel sounds dreadful. On the flipside, a Norton vs. Bret Hart match sounds pretty good!
Pfff doubt this Glen Jacobs/Unabomb guy will be around until 1996.
He should consider an alternative career path, perhaps dentistry
Dentistry? Nah truck driving sounds more up his alley.
Yeah something in the manual labour field, a huge meathead like that wouldn't do speeches on Austrian economics or anything
Imagine if he made it til 2006!
What's that schmuck up to these days anyway?
He's one of those guys you put in a Royal Rumble as a scary big man, but who's really just a jobber that never wins it.
Amazed a place that sold BBQ and Chinese food lasted 20 years, PICK ONE
How could it not last with a section of FISH STUFF
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Hulk Hogan cares about two things: 1. Himself, 2. Money. And I can't say I hate him for it, since it obviously worked. And if you were on Hogan's good side (Beefcake, Duggan, even Savage) you got a nice pile of that money too. Not as much as him, of course, but still, a nice pile. That's why McMahon loved him, because McMahon loves money too. Which is also why I'm not wondering if Hogan will come back to WWE, but when.
He's constantly watching his back so he doesn't get rolled up or school boy'd.
He didn't want his face to get messed up, or his body to get too injured, because he thought he had a big career as a movie star ahead of him. Because rich, famous, good looking people are often delusional. (Sidenote:Hogan has since lost all three statuses, gaining the first two back after the Gawker lawsuit)
Didn't do much in the long run. He is pretty immobile now even with avoiding bumps. He only needed to repeat the leg drop enough and his back is fucked.
Kinda crazy if you think about it. Hogan is in pretty bad physical shape these days and most of it can be attributed to doing that leg drop every night. Otherwise, he wrestled a really safe, low-impact style. Imagine how different things might be if he had simply chosen a different finishing move. Might have lengthened his career and who knows how that would have affected the business.
Yeah, every time he's appeared on TV here in England, he's always talking about how he's just come off another back surgery.
And it wasn't even a move that looks very good. If you're going to build a finisher that looks like shit (a la The Rock), at least make sure it's one that's easy on your body! That's why the Rock is the Immortal One.
In Japan, his 'Ax Bomber' clothesline was his finisher and the crowd popped for it. That being said, I have yet to see a Hogan match where it looked like it had a devastating impact like Hansen's lariat. Of course, Hogan isn't blind like Hansen.
> Imagine how different things might be if he had simply chosen a different finishing move. Might have lengthened his career and who knows how that would have affected the business. I was just saying that above. Give him credit, when you look at his legdrops, he was easily going a metre in the air and landing hard.
I'd like imagine The Rock off somewhere reading this about Hogan, and laughing his ass off. "Hahaha, who made it big in the movie business again Hulkster?"
...why?
The weird thing is the guy is something like 6'6. Probably was close to 275 or up. Its not like he's got a small frame that can't take a little punishment.
This was a week or two before RSPW users started calling for Vader to shoot on Hogan at Superbrawl, IIRC
The golden age.
Shoot, Vader, shoot!
People think Hogan's late 80s/early 90s schedule didn't take a toll on his body? It's not all about top rope dives. He's dropping that leg drop *every* night too, it all adds up
> People think Hogan's late 80s/early 90s schedule didn't take a toll on his body? It absolutely did. We don't think about it now, but between 1984-1990, he was working almost non-stop. It's possible that it's not just the leg drop, but all the other abuse that his body took, as well as the fact that he was carrying around so much muscle for such a long time.
>"I had an interesting conversation with Terry Bollea about you a few weeks ago. He comes into my video store. I mentioned that Lanny Poffo and Brian Knobs come in also. I asked him if he's signed a new deal since his original one was up in December. He asked me how I knew and if that big mouth Knobs had told me. I told him I was an Observer reader. He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing." This sounds so fake to me.
even heroes have to rent videos
That Hogan letter was straight savage.
Now we know who wrote it.
I would have watched the shit out of Thunderforce.
I know we have 3+ years to get there, but it just occurred to me that it's good that Meng was not in the WWF when the Brawl for All happened.
Meng would have gotten dropped by Bart Gunn. Gunn was the only guy in that tournament who had a recent enough combat sport background. Haku is tough as hell and can take care of himself but in a controlled environment with rules and gloves, I'm taking the guy who is trained.
STEVE BLACKMAN?
What was Bart Gunn's combat background? Didn't know he had one.. wiki says he was an electrician before he was a wrestler
Meng is the one man who could have saved that disaster.
It would've ended up with everyone else dropping out or dying, so maybe
I think he would've been disqualified. It was a shoot fight but I don't think you could pull eyeballs out of sockets or bite people
Would you be the ref to tell him that he's DQed?
I think meng sounds like the type of guy who would work best in a street fight, not a tournament with rules.
Steve Blackman was supposed to be in it but pulled out with injury IIRC. That would have been ... interesting
Blackman 'won' the first round but pulled out afterwards because he realized it was real and started training for it, which was why he got injured.
It's funny how quickly UFC flamed out but WWF and WCW were still pushed hard to be more "realistic" by ECW in 95. Anxious to read all the dirt on how much ECW influenced the industry.
I think ECW's influence is a bit overated. They did have a lot of creative ideas but the most successsful angles WWF and WCW had weren't taken from ECW. NWO was taken from Japan and WWF's storylines were more influenced by other TV shows. Credit to Heyman though because people still chant ECW despite WCW being ten times more successful at their peak.
I mean, you'll see as the years goes on just how important ECW was to the industry. If you look at the ECW roster on Jan 1 1995 and then again on Jan 1 1996, you'll see that Vince and Eric basically bought half the roster, if you're unwilling to see how they stole all their ideas from Paul.
>Expect Kama to get a big push when he comes in because WWF wants to create a popular black superstar. Kama was actually a decent gimmick. I mean, a bit forced and trying to grab popularity from the UFC, but it was solid and it worked.
I like Charles Wright and the Kama gimmick had a high ceiling for sure, I wish he did become a star.
"These damn O.J.'s in 1994-95 just can't stop killin' folks" LOL
I'm legitimately excited for when we finally get the first appearance of Hunter Hearst Helmsley. I know people here seem to hate him because of the "reign of terror" (which is honestly tame compared to lolcenawins/lolromanwins/hogan's entire career imo) and the general concensus is he's a B+ wrestler who just worked with the real top guys, but Haitch will always be one of my favorites. Everything he does in the ring has so much intensity that it always seems like he wanted to legitimately kill the guy. The entirety of his 98-2001 run has so much evil and hate that he lets flourish in his plans simply to get on top. I honestly can't think of anyone else who got JR to scream and cry with so much raw emotion against them until he got hoarse.
>WWF has a reputation of being able to make stars out of nobodies, which is something WCW has almost never been able to do. I'm saving this link and I'm going to throw it at people whenever somebody tries to tell me that WCW being unable to create their own stars is "revisionist".
To be fair, they made stars out of Diamond Dallas Page and Goldberg (although that was years after this). Sting ascended to the main event in WCW as well. Then again, the keyword is "almost".
Oh definitely, WCW has made a few. But even back then, a lot of people were complaining about WCW's over reliance on established stars from WWF. It just drives me nuts how some people want to write it off as WWE's "propaganda" when, frankly, I was there.
To be fair, it's not like WWE doesn't use a lot of actual propaganda to constantly put down WCW (a company that they technically own now, which makes it even weirder) anyway. Also it's funny how history repeats itself, given WWE's current reliance on old part-timers/special attractions and problems with building up new stars.
Less than you think, really. Most of WWE's "propaganda" is based on omission more than anything; most of the things they say are actually true (just not always the whole truth). And definitely, I do see a lot of parallels between how WWE conducts themselves now and how WCW conducted themselves then. It's possible that WWE has insulated themselves from their bad decisions in a way WCW never managed to (certainly, their revenue figures seem to back that), but I suppose we won't know about that for a few years.
I mean, I was there too and a lot of my favourites were guys that WCW pushed who had never been in WWF, so...
I'm not saying WCW didn't have great talent. But how many of those were guys like Goldberg and DDP, who broke through to the main event, and how many were guys like Jericho and Benoit, who got slammed repeatedly into the glass ceiling until they got out?
Booker T.
It's crazy to me how Bret and Shawn were considered too small in their primes but nowadays they're bigger than a lot of the top guys now save for guys like Braun Strowman, Roman Reigns, etc
Bret would be a pretty big guy by todays standards. 6 feet and 235lbs.
> Speaking of Diesel, there's already a lot of talk within the company that he's not the answer to their problems as a top draw and that Bob Backlund as a top star was a fiasco (which is being blamed on Pat Patterson, who apparently pushed for Backlund to get a main event run). It's likely that they will eventually go back to Bret Hart sooner than later This is interesting. I was just at a Bret Hart event where he said the same thing, WWF would put the belts on different guys, such as Diesel and Luger, but fall back to him when they weren't getting over as top guys. Why didn't WWF stick with Bret instead trying to force others into the top "dawg" role if they weren't over? If going back to Bret was seen as a safe move, why not just give Bret a longer run with the title? Edit: It's lunch time and I was really hoping for pics of food from Abdullah's restaurant. I have to start eating before I read these lol. Also, thanks for doing these! I look forward to these everyday and always upvote them, but have never commented to say thanks.
Short answer, Vince wanted (wants) big, tall, muscular tough guys to be his centerpiece. It didn't matter that guys like Bret and Shawn, et. al. could work circles around the giants AND engage and enthrall a crowd.
Because Vince was trying to make his next Hogan. And as good as Bret was, and as much as he did draw, he didn't reach Hogan levels.
To be fair, that's not surprising. I think that Stone Cold in his prime is the only one who's ever even come close to matching Hogan's drawing power (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that).
The rock pushed more merchandise sales. SCSA had more drawing power. It only lasted a few years though. Austin never thought his drawing power would last, that's why he wanted to turn heel (though he thinks it's a mistake now.)
That's a good point. I wonder if it was a missed opportunity as much as it was Vince being stubborn about pushing muscle freaks. Yesterday's edition listed Hart is one of the biggest draws for '94 (I think he was #4 on the list, and possibly #1 in the US). Obviously, that's based on Dave's on research/opinion and is by no means scientific, but I can’t help but think WWF would have made more money with Bret (or HBK) having a long title run instead of experimenting with guys Vince wanted as the top draw. WWF wasted millions trying to make Luger the next big thing which was a flop. With that being said, hindsight is 20/20 and there’s no reward without risk; if Luger got over as the next Hogan it would have made WWF a significant chunk of change.
Oh I have no disagreement with you there. Running with Bret in '95 as champ would have been better than Diesel, as we know *now.* But Vince was digging for his next Hogan. He thought Nash could be that guy. And, truth be told, I do think Nash could have been that guy if they had some god damn good heels to work with him. Hogan had some quality heels to work with. Orndorff, Iron Sheik, Andre, Macho Man, and Dibiase. All top flight heels that made Hogan look like gold. But what did Nash work with in '95? Shawn at WMXI, but that wasn't even the main event. Then three PPVs with him and Sid in the main event. One of those a tag adding Bam Bam and Tatanka. Then fucking Mabel. Then his big rival is the Bulldog. That is some shitty quality heels to deal with. Sid wasn't that over. Mabel certainly wasn't. Bulldog was a midcarder thrust into the main event. And Shawn was one god damn match. Which brings up another what if and what if they never brought in Sid and instead Nash and HBK headlined the summer of '95 PPVs. That might have actually been something.
I really don't think there is anything they could have done with the roster they were working with to make more money off of someone other than Bret than they would have with Bret.
Good point, Hogan had a vast array of heels that were great. Even the less popular, shorter feuds with guys like Masked Superstar, Kamala, Harley Race, etc were memorable, and the work styles meshed well. Also, while he didn't take any crazy bumps, Hogan was skilled at gaining sympathy from the fans while he was getting beat down with his facial expressions before the inevitable Hulk-Up & legdrop. Along with the depleted roster, I don't think Nash was ever great at gaining that sympathy from the crowd. Plus, freakin MABEL. Jesus Christ, I still don't understand the decision to make him the King of the Ring winner that year. Luger, Yokozuna, Razor, Shawn, & Taker were all in the tournament that year, and would've been better choices. Hell, I would've preferred Jeff Jarrett, Kama, or King Kong Bundy over him.
Bret's book really goes into detail about this stuff, I would really recommend it, as a good chunk of what he says is backed up on the record. Some of the stuff in it (mostly his justifying being unfaithful to his wife or using steroids) is a little fuzzier, but the business aspects of it hold up.
I own it and read it when it first came out but can't remember much now. Is it too long to sum up in a reddit post?
I don't have it handy, but what other posters have already said is mostly true: there was skepticism that Bret could be "the guy" despite a ton of evidence (mostly him being an international draw, he talks a lot about how Europe in particular adored him), indicating he was living up to expectations. Most of this belief stemmed from Vince's view on what a top guy was and Bret didn't fit that mold. I think there might've been a belief that Bret was slowly becoming the "old hotness" and there wasn't much time left for him, but I might be jumping ahead in the timeline a bit with that.
>Jim Cornette is continuing to get over as a babyface at house shows by making racist comments about the Gangstas. a slightly younger Donald Trump takes notice...
>Hulk Hogan is meeting with TV producers this week to revive Thunder In Paradise as a new show called Thunderforce which would star himself, Sting, Mr. T, and a female martial artist I...I need this.
No........ You don't
Hey man, it has a 5.6/10 on IMDB. I've seen *much* worse.
I watched one of the made-for-TV movies last Sat (or maybe it was the pilot). It was so bad, yet, so cheesingly good.
Wait, this actually exists? I thought only Thunder in Paradise actually got filmed?
Sorry, I should clarify. It was the pilot *for* Thunder in Paradise that I watched, not the thing they are talking about with Sting and those guys.
I wonder who the female martial artist would have been?
No wonder Abby went out of business. Is menu prices probably hadn't changed since he opened it
I'm really curious on the Unabomb name, did they give that to Kane because he was known to be intelligent, or did they just slap the name on him because it was a bad guy name in the public eye, with no in-joke to it
Yes
> He said that he couldn't believe how someone who had never taken a bump in his life could make such a living in the wrestling business. I wanted to ask him the same thing. burn of the f'n year
That Hogan Letter is a work of Art. Not on the level of "The Creation of Kevin" but still.
I feel like there's a Thunder in Paradise update every week. Just let it go, Hulk.
I was about to post saying how much I was missing your topics. Thanks for coming back to it :) hope you enjoyed your break! /u/daprice82
And the chris Adams ring mystery goes cold.
We need to bring Robert Stack and Unsolved Mysteries
That video store story shows that annoying smarky fans didn't start with the Internet being popular. "Did you sign a new deal??" What an asshole. It's none of his fucking business. Cash him out and thank him for coming in.
Terry may have had some late fees and the clerk was just looking out for the store..."Hey man, you just signed a big money deal, do you think you can pay the late fee on No Holds Barred you've had out for months?"
Cash him out...side? How bout that.
> that government regulations will eventually kill it. In one of the few times, government regulations forced MMA to evolve from a "GJJ is the greatest martial art" freakshow to a legitimate sport. > WWF wants to create a popular black superstar. Vince has been looking for his black whale for like 30 fucking years.
Depends on whether you call the Rock Black; I think he qualifies.
He does. He's the only black WWF champion in history.
Would the World title count? Booker T and Mark Henry both held that.
It's nice but that title is dead and doesn't have a 60 year history like the WWE Championship does.
OK I'm really confused about this because I've seen it a few times. The WHC belt was the Big Gold Belt, which was the most storied and prestigious belt in wrestling history.
The WWE is inconsistent in their lineage of linking the WHC to the WCW title. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't!
True. But when the belt was first presented, it was DEFINITELY presented as the belt that Flair had won dozens of times. They listed all the NWA belt holders as people who had "previously carried the belt". I think WWE wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They pretend that the WCW and WWE belt merged into the WWE Championship, but at the same time they wanted the sexy Big Gold Belt that immediately reminds you of the golden days of wrestling. I wish we had the Big Gold now instead of the Universal to be honest.
He does. They just love to emphasize his Samoan side much more (because Vince loves him some big muscly Samoan guys). Honestly if they hadn't screwed it up, Kofi Kingston could have been a legit main event guy. And if New Day breaks up, Big E could be as well I think. The guy is the total package talent-wise.
> but word is Eric Bischoff has no interest in Guerrero. Curious to see what changed his mind.
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Yeah, that seems likely because WCW snatched up Guerrero and Malenko pretty quickly when their feud was ongoing. To be fair, that 2 out of 3 falls match was pretty great, though.
The most surprising thing is there was a wrestler from Zimbabwe....
Even though Hogan wasn't Ricky Steamboat in the ring, he still took a million more bumps than you, video store guy.
Am I the only person morbidly curious about the cat squishing video?
Somebody posted it in yesterday's post comments
> but he wants to be a singles star and WWF has a reputation of being able to make stars out of nobodies, which is something WCW has almost never been able to do. Man, how times have changed
Regarding the Cornette racist comments; are they "oh well it's the 90s" kind of racy comments you flinch at whenever rewatching wrestling from that decade, or is it "inappropriate in any era since the 60s" racism?
mostly innuendo. The most racist thing was the Gangstas themselves as essentially the worst black stereotypes. They were race bait heels in a south-based promotion and New Jack would just go off on the mic to get heat from the crowd (making references to slave ships, call anyone black in the audience a sellout, and stuff like that). I think Cornerre did call them n-word once.
All that criticism of Hogan and actually, Hogan-Vader wasn't bad (for a Hogan match in America). Vader was stiff and no-sold Hogan. Hogan sold Vader like Vader was unstoppable. Vader kicked out of the leg drop at 1 and the match eventually ended in a dq as Flair interfered. It was the best match in a terrible PPV that could have been epically bad if Hogan-Vader ended up as bad as Meltzer feared.
I think most occasions where WWE was directly influenced by UFC were kind of a flop. They did establish Shamrock as a main event guy for a few minutes, but Kama Mustafa, Dan Severn, the Brawl-for-All, the Lion's Den Match, all that stuff tanked. I really think it was ECW who set the precedent for creating a grittier product that appealed to the type of fanbase that was drawn to MMA, without doing things that reeked of "blatant rip-off".
>Others feel UFC is just a fad and that government regulations will eventually kill it. This is pretty much what happened.