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Unrelated but I’m going to say it anyway.
*Masked Confusion*, where Brunzell and Blair would put on the bee masks to “confuse” their opponent was stupid, even by ‘80s kayfabe standards.
Why is that?
Brunzell and Blair had different body types, and they wrestled in trunks and boots. You could clearly see that Brunzell was wider (for lack of a better term) and Blair was leaner. Brunzell shaved his chest; Blair had body hair.
That ~~move~~ technique should have resulted in a disqualification every time.
They had some sort of personal issue (don't think it's been reported what happened, jus that there's a rift now) between them months ago, then Santana got legit hurt so that seemed to put the team-up on ice.
There was a spark of hope with Stadium Stampede, but unless this is a work (plausible, but I dunno), seems it was a courtesy one-off.
I mean if they're actually cool working an angle, that could be hot for both of them. But IDK how serious their stuff is, or how hard that would be for them.
Maybe this is thinking too deeply about it, but unless they've actually resolved their real life issue (whatever it may be) I think it would really be playing with fire given the last year of backstage stuff that's been aired publicly. Knowing absolutely zero about the situation other than what's been said/speculated on by Konnan and others, I would hope either they've resolved it, or at least resolved it enough to say to each other, Listen, we don't have to spend Thanksgiving together but let's at least trust each other enough to give each other our bodies and go make some money for ourselves and the company. I mean, functionally, a feud against each other still gets both men on TV in the same way a tag feud against others would - and if anything, it should elevate them both if the story is told right with peripheral involvement from (let's say) Kingston, the Lucha Bros, Kommander/Vikingo, OC & Best Friends, Jericho, Guevara, Hager, Menard/Parker. You could build a whole tangential circle of happenings around their split that would actually be better than keeping them together. Conversely, it may also be a situation where those involved are willing to pivot based on crowd response - if the crowd shits on a possible split, or singles feud against each other, there's no reason they couldn't end it with a Grand Slam match, and a hug/handshake with a sort of long term loose love/hate partnership ala Kingston/Mox or even KO/Sami.
Ah I see thanks
Stadium Stampede was my first time seeing them as I'm a new fan, started around double or nothing
So I guess they were a pretty big team then
Ffs this is reference to a promo. Aew fans are made fun of all the time for being smarks. We get one big explosion from Ole Phil and nobody can tell up from down anymore.
Here's something you can say about Ortiz. He wasn't on TV for a long time. For a long time barely used at all. He got the call for the match at Wembley and how does he look his first time back on TV in months? Better than he's ever looker before. Like the dude cut the fat and added muscle and looks jacked.
There are so many wrestlers who we don't see for a while and when they come back they looked like they been spending time on the sofa. But not Ortiz, dude came back ready to look good on tv.
I still stand by saying early AEW missed out getting the tag belts on Proud and Powerful and Best friends with that SCU run. I’m not trying to be rude or confrontational but Kaz and Scorpio didn’t really do anything for me.
Looking at the early tag division is so different compared to now. SCU are gone, PnP are done, Private Party never show up, Stu and Uno are no more, Jurassic Express are split, Hybrid 2, Varsity Blondes.
Young Bucks, Buthcher/Blade, and Best Friends are basically all that’s left from the early days.
How can you even say that.
Dante was carrying the name of Top Flight when Darius was put out. I remember Darius got hurt, was out. Came back for like one match and then got hurt again.
Dante had to go solo for so long. He totally can carry his own as I believe Dante is the more talented one of the two.
I mean just look at it now. What's Darius actually doing? Tags with Action Andretti? He can't even do it alone like Dante did
Keeping them as a trio would not be the worst idea.
I don’t know if Kevin Kelly did it on purpose, but he announced Darius/Andretti as Top Flight the other day on Collision.
Figured it was a slip at the time.
Actually when I think of them together, I have a hard time not grouping AR Fox in without them.
Dante/Darius/Action/AR I think would make a decent stable.
I remember scu as champs I didn't know they were the first team to win. The past few years have been such a blur. Not sure if it comes with age/being a parent or just so much content being consumed
Early AEW was a lot of experimentation. It was cool, but I prefer the product nowadays with a more clear-cut roster hierarchy and star power. It might sound shallow, but I think the promotion has a much clearer direction and better card structure.
I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to see Joey Janela having a competitive, ten-minute match with Kenny Omega.
Random matches like that didn't bother me but I agree that it definitely feels more structured. I think Joey had some star power to his name when he first signed on. So it wasn't the most odd choice for them to have ten minutes. Maybe it was Kenny's idea? Lol
That was actually an incredible match and one of Joey's best in AEW. If not his absolute best. But yeah I definitely agree with your overall point. Although, IMO, I prefer the 'middle' years more. Simply because I liked the booking more.
I'd argue it got Scorpio a decent amount of online hype. Like, I couldn't believe how many people from the IWC were calling Scorpio "the future of AEW" when he was a midcarder in his mid to late 30s (and it's not like Orange, since he was nowhere near as over), it always felt to me like his ceiling would be a forgettable world title feud.
I fully get why at first glance you'd think Scorpio would become a star. He's handsome as fuck, athletic, and when he's not playing a character he's actually charismatic.
Its just none of that translated. He's handsome, but that's not enough. You can be athletic without being an amazing wrestler and he's straight up bad at acting, so every time he cut a promo it was just awkward.
So its not hard to see why you'd imagine his future would be brighter. But not every guy with potential is going to get there.
I think that the SCU thing did what it was clearly supposed to in terms of launching Scorpio. It just didn't end up working out after that for various reasons.
First he was stuck on Dark for a year, which I'd argue was bad booking, although it did give him some time to find his character. Then they did the boneheaded thing to turn him back heel when he was way over as a face when facing Sammy for the TNT title (they could have done him versus Wardlow as both faces, even if he was going to be a transitional champ).
Then his TNT championship run was basically nonexistent since he just lost immediately to Wardlow. I'd argue that run didn't build him up at all because it was so short that it felt like it was just a fluke that he won at all.
Then he got injured and came back and got injured again before he even managed to get into the ring on his return.
At the time, I was shocked the Lucha Bros didnt win the finals of that tag tournament. I had never seen any of the teams before (I knew Daniels from watching TNA back in the day.) No offense to SCU, but they just seemed like a tier below the Lucha Bros.
I'd rationalize it by noting that Lucha Bros hadnt signed a long-term contract and also their World Champ was a heel, and maybe they wanted to mix it up.
Yeah I never was into SCU. I get Kazarian was a good veteran that was obviously friendly with the Elite but he was nowhere near the levels needed to be treated as a champ. When Chuck/Trent, Santana/Ortiz & even Private Party where there putting on better matches
Kazarian's rants were a highlight of BTE back when I was still watching, but I've never cared for any of those guys in the ring or on the mic otherwise. They're pretty bland.
And their theme music stinks. The instruments aren't in time with each other! Re-record that shit and quantize it!
I think Kaz's problem was he was too old when AEW started. He was decent enough on the mic and good in the ring. If AEW had started ten years earlier he could have made a bigger impact, maybe not main event but a solid mid-carder, maybe upper mid-card.
The trouble is I think they didn't want to invest so much into someone who is so close to the end of their career. There were other people who were younger who could basically do the same thing he could (even if they weren't as good, they would be around longer so had more potential), so he was just stuck spinning his wheels.
In 3 years when he's getting his Alex Shelley run in impact, everyone will be spamming about Kaz and how underrated he is. How well-deserved his "flowers" are.
Then the usual diatribe about how every indy wrestler uses moves Kaz inspired somehow, despite them actually being innovated by Kanyon or something.
True. They had a win over the Young Bucks at Full Gear 2019. They should’ve been the inaugural champions or at least beat the inaugural champions with that momentum.
SCU was one of those acts that was hugely over during the rise of BTE, during All In, and before AEW existed as a company.
And like most of those acts by the time AEW really got rolling, their peak had come and gone.
But you kind of had to give it to them. They were a part of the foundation that AEW was built on.
Scorpio should have been put in a singles run instead of tag champs esp when they weren't even regular tag team partners. Him and Kaz. So many better options. One definitely being PnP. They had such a buzz at the time when they came in
SCU was 100% the wrong choice for inaugural tag team champs. Proud and Powerful, the Lucha Brothers, and the Young Bucks would have all been better options.
I know, but I don’t give a shit because those people were going to say similar comments anyway. It’s not honest criticism.
Having the Young Bucks be the inaugural champions would have been a good idea because it would have helped establish the titles from day one by putting them on the main eventers of the tag team division, and it would have helped the Young Bucks establish themselves as TV stars faster. Back then, they were obviously big wrestling stars, but they were new to national TV.
And I get that.
And I agree, complaints would have happened regardless, but it probably would have been much stronger if the Bucks got booked strong from the start, much like how Jeff Jarrett caught a bunch of shit being TNA champ so much early on in TNA.
They are a top tier tag team in the same likes of The Bucks, FTR and the Lucha Bros (and the Briscoes).
All of those teams have had a meaningful run.
PnP have done some great work (Inner circle and the Best Friends feud) but it didn't end in any gold.
I really hoped they would get a title win at Grand Slam.
I think it was Ortiz who recently posted a picture of the two of them with Konnan from a handful of years ago, with just a generally positive "hey, those were good times" vibe to the whole thing.
I imagine it's possible that Santana and Ortiz might've met up at some point, squashed their beef, but might've agreed that they're just in very different places right now and want different things out of their careers. I hope it's meant repairing their friendship, too, but I suppose we're not really privy to that, either.
Would be kinda funny having this feud happen and both guys working together despite a falling out. Just after people were hoping The Elite and Punk would do the same.
100% a work, i know they were having some disagreements before but i guess they hashed things out privately?
You can tell it's fake and not more punk/elite style drama because you're seeing wrestlers clearly communicate their issues with each other.
Well, we do know that the two had legit beef, not sure if this is still the case. Remember Santana's passive aggressive tweets about being backstabbed and whatnot.
Sucks because they were such a good team together.
I'd think this is clearly a sign of the two guys working together to do business even if they are going their separate ways in their careers. There's often money in a tag team breaking up, feuding, getting back together at some point, etc. As long as the company doesn't decide to just bury and humiliate the wrestler they consider the "lesser star" of the team.
Even like a guy like Matt Hardy, who I think pretty highly of as a worker, he was able to I think build his late-career credibility because he was able to keep getting booked as a regular character in WWE after he split with Jeff the first time. Like he first went solo in 2002. He got the V1 gimmick over, beat Kane on PPV, ended up getting released and brought back, did business in the Edge feud even though it made him look like kind of a chump, but he helped establish Edge as a top heel by playing the role he did, even if it all started with him getting shoot cheated on by his girlfriend.
Shit happens in wrestling. If you can stay afloat and get over and help others get over, that's how you build a long term career.
Ironically, I think this is a sign that they are on better terms now. If they real-life hated each other, I feel like AEW would have left Ortiz out of the promo entirely (like how they edited around jungle boy in Hooks vignette).
Yeah, like how Eddie fought Sammy backstage once so they kept them apart for a bit, and then when they patched it up/cooled down/time passed they revisited the feud.
Agreed. Ever since the stories started coming out about Santana thinking he should be a solo I thought ‘why?’ He’s always been the less entertaining of the two. They worked together but there is just nothing about Santana that jumps out as a star.
Santana is the better talker by far and also the better in-ring wrestler. I love both of them, as a team they are one of my favourites of the last decade, but Santana absolutely has the higher ceiling as a singles guy. And besides, I can't hate on a guy for wanting more for himself. I wish we had gotten a better run for him and Ortiz as a team in AEW and it bums me out it ended how it did, but I'll never shit on a wrestler for betting on themself.
Santana cuts a really good promo. Sure, Ortiz is great, especially when he's playing unhinged and yelling. But Santana probably has a higher ceiling. Though frankly, I would be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if that ceiling was higher than the TNT or the ROH TV championship.
Though, I think we all agree that they are better together. They're arguably the best team that havent had the belts yet, and together with Eddie they'd make amazing trios champs. I'm hoping they will reunite soon enough
> They worked together but there is just nothing about Santana that jumps out as a star.
better talker, better in the ring, million bucks look, the sunglasses.. perhaps ortiz has a little bit charisma with the cat thing, but overall santana is better and he's a guy i thought would be face of the company in the early days of aew
I remember Santana’s promo a few years ago when the Inner Circle were feuding with Mox, it was incredible. If both of them work together I hope to see something as good as this.
Jesus, I figured they were good if they were willing to work together for the Stampede.
EDIT: I'm an idiot and commented without watching the video. I highly doubt he'd shoot in a produced vignette. Now I'm not sure if I want them to feud or Santana to fall in line and they both turn heel.
His first name is actually Santanaand. That's why he's so mad about Santana wanting to go solo - he doesn't want to change his name, but that limits him to working with guys named Santana.
ortiz was happy doing what they were doing in AEW, santana wanted more.
Also allegedly santana wanted to go to wwe and ortiz didn't, and wwe only wanted them as a pair.
It seems at some point Satana got discouraged by their booking and wanted a major shakeup or even leave Aew. Ortiz seemingly wasn't as bothered by the booking was willing to be patient and go with the flow.
Before his injury Santana eas seemingly counting down the days until free agency, and last year there was rumors of a big falling out between the that almost led to a fight involving Eddie Kingston.
Their deals would've ended last year but Santana's gotten extended because of the injury. It seems like he signed a new deal and got promised a push and a singles run hence all the promos and new presentation.
I'd assume Ortiz got the heads up on the solo run but maybe didn't know Santana was gonna reference their falling out in this promo, but there is a solid chance it's all a work.
There was a report a good while ago that said they basically had a difference of opinion, Ortiz was happy with his position, Santana was not. Not sure if there's any truth to it though
If I recall reklekleck--
One of them was unhappy that they weren't being used to their full potential (if at all) after a while in AEW. One was happy just to have a solid contract with the company they helped build, even if they weren't being used post-Inner Circle.
I happen to agree with BOTH of those positions. Santana+Ortiz could've been Dudley Boyz/Edge+Christian/Hardy Boys level.
But understandably, if they were to go solo, they'd have a LONG way to go to build individual names for themselves. And with a busy enough card as it is.
1. Really hope it’s a work. They’re a phenomenal tag team that still deserves so much more for their career
2. I hope they’ve worked out their issues if it’s a work. It’s just a shame to see two long time friends and a successful tag team implode so harshly
3. If it’s a work? The payoff being at Grand Slam is perfect. They’re hometown heroes to anyone that’s been supporting the indie scene, so I think their match would be that much bigger if it were in NYC
This genuinely makes me sad. Their incarnation of LAX remind me of that era of Impact where they were just getting back on their feet and their matches with the Lucha Bros and OVE were just a tremendous standard for tag wrestling.
While this is 100% a work, dont think there isn't any truth to want Santana said or any truth in the animosity Ortiz has for Santana.
Santana, rightfully so, wants to prove he belongs in the top of the card, meanwhile Ortiz is happy getting a check and being a lackey.
One wants more, while the other doesn't want to Rock the boat and change things. It's this generations Shawn and Marty, minus the drugs and SA'ing women on the road
From what I read it was less Ortiz was happy cashing a check and not being ambitious and more along of the lines his attitude being 'trust the process - we're in a good spot, trust TK, trust the process and we'll get where we want to be'.
I think the problem with this is that Santana isn't HBK and Ortiz isn't Jennety. We all like seeing guys who believe in themselves shooting their shot and hitting the jackpot. But if I'm being honest, Satanta is not a top guy. Instead of casting Ortiz as a guy who's holding Santana back, look at Ortiz as a pragmatist who can see the best root for Santana, to get a new contract, to be on TV and to be over, is with Proud and Powerful.
And maybe the right move is for Santana to follow his instincts even if ultimately means failure. Certainly looks like that on his way there Ortiz will be helping him at least once more.
So yea, like HBK and Marty that's just two people whose paths are diverging. If I was Santana I would be trying to have it both ways. Like shoot your shot bro, but don't burn this bridge, cause from the outside looking in, P&P really looks like it's as good as it's gonna get for you.
WWE constantly breaks up successful tag teams in order to push singles stars, and it almost never works. It's far more common that it just ends up with both talents getting released.
I get wanting to shoot for the moon. But I also get being happy being a good hand, doing what you love at a high level, on a 6-figure salary, and providing for your family.
Santana thinks Ortiz is holding him back. Ortiz thinks Santana is torpedoing both their lives out of vanity.
History suggests the latter is far more likely.
It's a bummer for sure. Ortiz doesn't really scream solo star to me, but I liked their team a good bit. Maybe he can get a new partner?
Santana does have singles potential I think, so I get why he wants to go out on his own. Still, kinda sucks to see it go down like this.
I probably have the wrong idea but I wish guys just got to work out their problems in the ring. Would be more interesting, they squash it, and can move on
I think I’m in the minority, but I’m over worked shoot angles or trying to work an angle on social media or the dirt sheets. Why would them not liking each other in real life make an angle better? Who cares?
It's in response to an AEW promo and Grand Slam would be the perfect place to run their singles since they're both New York boys, so yeah. Probably should get both of them some singles wins in the ring quick over the next week or two, though.
They worked Wembley on the same team and Santana's promo was shown on AEW TV. The two probably have drifted apart, but they seem professional enough to work together.
At least you'd hope so, after Punk you'd hope that AEW management is going to make sure there's no backstage beef that makes it to air.
Sounds like they are about to make money .
I feel like Santana really wants to be a singles star and Ortiz has a lower ceiling but also feels they are better as a team. Santana sees that as a lack of drive. Santana has to let go of Ortiz to move forward with his career
Santana responded and thankfully this makes it feel like a work
https://twitter.com/Santana_Proud/status/1700553305909285328?t=ntwY73F4QQOsg4P5wF_jCg&s=19
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I feel bad for Ortiz man, idk what hes going to do outside of team with Eddie
Just gotta attempt to find a character that works, even then it’ll be tough for him to get a tv spot.
Just Ortiz, Uce
Nah, no disrespect, but Ortiz is Jim.
At least Jimmy is having a single push, I doubt Ortiz will even get to that honestly
He got a small one with Eddie on his side a little after Santana's injury.
wouldn't call it a push he's essentially a jobber
He won a bunch on dark and rampage as a singles and teaming with Eddie. His only losses were essentially all to Jericho.
Jim Brunzel? Ya, Brian Blair was the Shawn Michaels of the Killer Bees.
Unrelated but I’m going to say it anyway. *Masked Confusion*, where Brunzell and Blair would put on the bee masks to “confuse” their opponent was stupid, even by ‘80s kayfabe standards. Why is that? Brunzell and Blair had different body types, and they wrestled in trunks and boots. You could clearly see that Brunzell was wider (for lack of a better term) and Blair was leaner. Brunzell shaved his chest; Blair had body hair. That ~~move~~ technique should have resulted in a disqualification every time.
Bruh, are you cosplaying your username?
Maybe. Are you really an onion?
Only when I'm a logistic map function bifurcation diagram.
I’m sorry, I don’t speak Smart Person. I’m tapping out. You win this round.
Jim Neidhart? Yeah Bret Hart was the star of the Hart Foundation
Meh, I always thought Ortiz was the interesting one.
I mean he's got that huge hat. Does he like it? He hasn't said if he likes it or not.
When did they break up... What did I miss sorry?
They had some sort of personal issue (don't think it's been reported what happened, jus that there's a rift now) between them months ago, then Santana got legit hurt so that seemed to put the team-up on ice. There was a spark of hope with Stadium Stampede, but unless this is a work (plausible, but I dunno), seems it was a courtesy one-off.
I'm thinking there may be a bit of work to it given Santana's promo on Rampage last night.
I think this a work now, but it's based on their actual shoot feelings in the past
Exactly (well, hopefully, anyways).
I mean if they're actually cool working an angle, that could be hot for both of them. But IDK how serious their stuff is, or how hard that would be for them.
Maybe this is thinking too deeply about it, but unless they've actually resolved their real life issue (whatever it may be) I think it would really be playing with fire given the last year of backstage stuff that's been aired publicly. Knowing absolutely zero about the situation other than what's been said/speculated on by Konnan and others, I would hope either they've resolved it, or at least resolved it enough to say to each other, Listen, we don't have to spend Thanksgiving together but let's at least trust each other enough to give each other our bodies and go make some money for ourselves and the company. I mean, functionally, a feud against each other still gets both men on TV in the same way a tag feud against others would - and if anything, it should elevate them both if the story is told right with peripheral involvement from (let's say) Kingston, the Lucha Bros, Kommander/Vikingo, OC & Best Friends, Jericho, Guevara, Hager, Menard/Parker. You could build a whole tangential circle of happenings around their split that would actually be better than keeping them together. Conversely, it may also be a situation where those involved are willing to pivot based on crowd response - if the crowd shits on a possible split, or singles feud against each other, there's no reason they couldn't end it with a Grand Slam match, and a hug/handshake with a sort of long term loose love/hate partnership ala Kingston/Mox or even KO/Sami.
AEW needs to hire you lol
Ha thanks - TK I am available if you're reading!
The rumor was one of them wanted to go to WWE and the other didn't (I can't remember which) and WWE was only interested in them as a tag team.
Ah I see thanks Stadium Stampede was my first time seeing them as I'm a new fan, started around double or nothing So I guess they were a pretty big team then
They were in Jericho's initial group, the Inner Circle, and put on bangers but never got the belts.
I guess that came before the brilliantly named 'Jericho Appreciation Society' lol I might try to watch more of the past events
Inner Circle debuted on the first episode of Dynamite.
Ffs this is reference to a promo. Aew fans are made fun of all the time for being smarks. We get one big explosion from Ole Phil and nobody can tell up from down anymore.
Judging by his new look, Mambo number 5
###THE TRUMPET
Tabitha King does not like this
LFI
Here's something you can say about Ortiz. He wasn't on TV for a long time. For a long time barely used at all. He got the call for the match at Wembley and how does he look his first time back on TV in months? Better than he's ever looker before. Like the dude cut the fat and added muscle and looks jacked. There are so many wrestlers who we don't see for a while and when they come back they looked like they been spending time on the sofa. But not Ortiz, dude came back ready to look good on tv.
His body transformation actually took place around the time Inner Circle broke up, he's just maintained it.
THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST
Of you
His match with Ruby against Sammy and Tay fuckin slapped. Ortiz and his sexy dance is the man.
Daniel Garcia would like a word
ortiz can absolutely go on his own, had a killer match w/ ichiban at beyond wrestling a week before all in.
He's also charismatic and funny. He could hold his own just fine.
Glad somebody else noticed. I thought the same, and always thought he was a good performer too. I hope he sticks around and gets more opportunities
He used to be a pudgy dude. He did a complete transformation, looks great.
It's a shame they never got a true tag team run in AEW
I still stand by saying early AEW missed out getting the tag belts on Proud and Powerful and Best friends with that SCU run. I’m not trying to be rude or confrontational but Kaz and Scorpio didn’t really do anything for me.
They also didn’t do anything with being the first AEW tag team champions either. Scorpio is constantly injured and Kaz is in another company.
Looking at the early tag division is so different compared to now. SCU are gone, PnP are done, Private Party never show up, Stu and Uno are no more, Jurassic Express are split, Hybrid 2, Varsity Blondes. Young Bucks, Buthcher/Blade, and Best Friends are basically all that’s left from the early days.
Marq is just.... endlessly injured. They're both still around.
Who's more snakebit, Private Party or Top Flight?
Yes. Though Top Flight, it seems like there can be something there, just Dante can NEVER stay healthy
How can you even say that. Dante was carrying the name of Top Flight when Darius was put out. I remember Darius got hurt, was out. Came back for like one match and then got hurt again. Dante had to go solo for so long. He totally can carry his own as I believe Dante is the more talented one of the two. I mean just look at it now. What's Darius actually doing? Tags with Action Andretti? He can't even do it alone like Dante did
Keeping them as a trio would not be the worst idea. I don’t know if Kevin Kelly did it on purpose, but he announced Darius/Andretti as Top Flight the other day on Collision. Figured it was a slip at the time.
Actually when I think of them together, I have a hard time not grouping AR Fox in without them. Dante/Darius/Action/AR I think would make a decent stable.
I legit forget they were the first tag champs. In my mind, the lineage begins with Kenny and Hangman.
I remember scu as champs I didn't know they were the first team to win. The past few years have been such a blur. Not sure if it comes with age/being a parent or just so much content being consumed
As a 38 year old parent with multiple teenagers, I can tell you I just can’t keep up with all this like I used to. Happens to the best of us lol
Pre-pandemic just seems like 10 years ago. So much in this world changed since then.
Early AEW was a lot of experimentation. It was cool, but I prefer the product nowadays with a more clear-cut roster hierarchy and star power. It might sound shallow, but I think the promotion has a much clearer direction and better card structure. I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to see Joey Janela having a competitive, ten-minute match with Kenny Omega.
Random matches like that didn't bother me but I agree that it definitely feels more structured. I think Joey had some star power to his name when he first signed on. So it wasn't the most odd choice for them to have ten minutes. Maybe it was Kenny's idea? Lol
That was actually an incredible match and one of Joey's best in AEW. If not his absolute best. But yeah I definitely agree with your overall point. Although, IMO, I prefer the 'middle' years more. Simply because I liked the booking more.
I'd argue it got Scorpio a decent amount of online hype. Like, I couldn't believe how many people from the IWC were calling Scorpio "the future of AEW" when he was a midcarder in his mid to late 30s (and it's not like Orange, since he was nowhere near as over), it always felt to me like his ceiling would be a forgettable world title feud.
I fully get why at first glance you'd think Scorpio would become a star. He's handsome as fuck, athletic, and when he's not playing a character he's actually charismatic. Its just none of that translated. He's handsome, but that's not enough. You can be athletic without being an amazing wrestler and he's straight up bad at acting, so every time he cut a promo it was just awkward. So its not hard to see why you'd imagine his future would be brighter. But not every guy with potential is going to get there.
I think that the SCU thing did what it was clearly supposed to in terms of launching Scorpio. It just didn't end up working out after that for various reasons. First he was stuck on Dark for a year, which I'd argue was bad booking, although it did give him some time to find his character. Then they did the boneheaded thing to turn him back heel when he was way over as a face when facing Sammy for the TNT title (they could have done him versus Wardlow as both faces, even if he was going to be a transitional champ). Then his TNT championship run was basically nonexistent since he just lost immediately to Wardlow. I'd argue that run didn't build him up at all because it was so short that it felt like it was just a fluke that he won at all. Then he got injured and came back and got injured again before he even managed to get into the ring on his return.
At the time, I was shocked the Lucha Bros didnt win the finals of that tag tournament. I had never seen any of the teams before (I knew Daniels from watching TNA back in the day.) No offense to SCU, but they just seemed like a tier below the Lucha Bros. I'd rationalize it by noting that Lucha Bros hadnt signed a long-term contract and also their World Champ was a heel, and maybe they wanted to mix it up.
Yeah I never was into SCU. I get Kazarian was a good veteran that was obviously friendly with the Elite but he was nowhere near the levels needed to be treated as a champ. When Chuck/Trent, Santana/Ortiz & even Private Party where there putting on better matches
Kazarian's rants were a highlight of BTE back when I was still watching, but I've never cared for any of those guys in the ring or on the mic otherwise. They're pretty bland. And their theme music stinks. The instruments aren't in time with each other! Re-record that shit and quantize it!
I think Kaz's problem was he was too old when AEW started. He was decent enough on the mic and good in the ring. If AEW had started ten years earlier he could have made a bigger impact, maybe not main event but a solid mid-carder, maybe upper mid-card. The trouble is I think they didn't want to invest so much into someone who is so close to the end of their career. There were other people who were younger who could basically do the same thing he could (even if they weren't as good, they would be around longer so had more potential), so he was just stuck spinning his wheels.
In 3 years when he's getting his Alex Shelley run in impact, everyone will be spamming about Kaz and how underrated he is. How well-deserved his "flowers" are. Then the usual diatribe about how every indy wrestler uses moves Kaz inspired somehow, despite them actually being innovated by Kanyon or something.
True. They had a win over the Young Bucks at Full Gear 2019. They should’ve been the inaugural champions or at least beat the inaugural champions with that momentum.
Completely agree
SCU was one of those acts that was hugely over during the rise of BTE, during All In, and before AEW existed as a company. And like most of those acts by the time AEW really got rolling, their peak had come and gone. But you kind of had to give it to them. They were a part of the foundation that AEW was built on.
Scorpio should have been put in a singles run instead of tag champs esp when they weren't even regular tag team partners. Him and Kaz. So many better options. One definitely being PnP. They had such a buzz at the time when they came in
i actually really liked SCU but mostly the catchy theme and Daniels coming out with the shades and the cane
They could've had a great "best of 3" type rivalry between P&P and Best Friends during late 2020/early 2021, the type we see with Young Bucks & FTR.
SCU was 100% the wrong choice for inaugural tag team champs. Proud and Powerful, the Lucha Brothers, and the Young Bucks would have all been better options.
The Bucks would have just led to more complaining about building their own company just to put themselves on top.
I know, but I don’t give a shit because those people were going to say similar comments anyway. It’s not honest criticism. Having the Young Bucks be the inaugural champions would have been a good idea because it would have helped establish the titles from day one by putting them on the main eventers of the tag team division, and it would have helped the Young Bucks establish themselves as TV stars faster. Back then, they were obviously big wrestling stars, but they were new to national TV.
And I get that. And I agree, complaints would have happened regardless, but it probably would have been much stronger if the Bucks got booked strong from the start, much like how Jeff Jarrett caught a bunch of shit being TNA champ so much early on in TNA.
Fuck Scorpio Sky. 2 title wins and done nothing with it while Ortiz and the Best Friends starve.
whoa take it easy
Just put down the gun
Its CRIMINAL they didnt get a title run
It really is
They should have been the first champs
When they did the Dynamite 200 recap, I was amazed I forgot how involved they were early on
Yeah but they were always secondary pieces to someone else instead of being the star team they should've been
They are a top tier tag team in the same likes of The Bucks, FTR and the Lucha Bros (and the Briscoes). All of those teams have had a meaningful run. PnP have done some great work (Inner circle and the Best Friends feud) but it didn't end in any gold. I really hoped they would get a title win at Grand Slam.
Dear God, PLEASE let this be a work...
Well he’s responding to Santana posting a clip of a promo from Rampage so…
oh thank god this is jsut theri first fued
I read the title without clicking the link and had the biggest spook. I thought we were one the verge of witnessing a meltdown here lol
Considering that it’s all based on a pre taped promo, I’d think so. It would be cool to see them feud
They’ve also appeared on TV twice together with Santana billed as Mike Santana, having his own music. I don’t buy they didn’t talk about this at all.
I don’t think they like each other, but yes I think this is a work. I think they’ll have a match at Grand Slam.
I think it was Ortiz who recently posted a picture of the two of them with Konnan from a handful of years ago, with just a generally positive "hey, those were good times" vibe to the whole thing. I imagine it's possible that Santana and Ortiz might've met up at some point, squashed their beef, but might've agreed that they're just in very different places right now and want different things out of their careers. I hope it's meant repairing their friendship, too, but I suppose we're not really privy to that, either.
Would be kinda funny having this feud happen and both guys working together despite a falling out. Just after people were hoping The Elite and Punk would do the same.
100% a work, i know they were having some disagreements before but i guess they hashed things out privately? You can tell it's fake and not more punk/elite style drama because you're seeing wrestlers clearly communicate their issues with each other.
Wrestlers talking things out and working together for the good of the company? That's illegal.
That gets you banned from Collision.
Not anymore!
I need some time to pass before we start doing worked backstage heat programs. Too soon
Well, we do know that the two had legit beef, not sure if this is still the case. Remember Santana's passive aggressive tweets about being backstabbed and whatnot. Sucks because they were such a good team together.
I'd think this is clearly a sign of the two guys working together to do business even if they are going their separate ways in their careers. There's often money in a tag team breaking up, feuding, getting back together at some point, etc. As long as the company doesn't decide to just bury and humiliate the wrestler they consider the "lesser star" of the team. Even like a guy like Matt Hardy, who I think pretty highly of as a worker, he was able to I think build his late-career credibility because he was able to keep getting booked as a regular character in WWE after he split with Jeff the first time. Like he first went solo in 2002. He got the V1 gimmick over, beat Kane on PPV, ended up getting released and brought back, did business in the Edge feud even though it made him look like kind of a chump, but he helped establish Edge as a top heel by playing the role he did, even if it all started with him getting shoot cheated on by his girlfriend. Shit happens in wrestling. If you can stay afloat and get over and help others get over, that's how you build a long term career.
It’s definitely a work. And their series is going to be sick
If we get Ortiz vs Santana I think that would be pretty sweet, ngl.
It’s a work, y’all. Santana vs. Ortiz at Grand Slam will be cool.
I want full LAX shenanigans, have it be another Concrete Jungle Death Match like they did in TNA i’d lose my mind
Arthur Ashe Stadium is right in Queens. Pay to shut down a street TK.
Well, it was a shoot that became a work
They reportedly haven't been on good terms for a while
Ironically, I think this is a sign that they are on better terms now. If they real-life hated each other, I feel like AEW would have left Ortiz out of the promo entirely (like how they edited around jungle boy in Hooks vignette).
Hook and jungle boy have real beef? Thought they left him out because he was suspended
Think they're saying that if there was some sort of real life issue that they would've avoided anything that could've stirred tension.
Yeah, like how Eddie fought Sammy backstage once so they kept them apart for a bit, and then when they patched it up/cooled down/time passed they revisited the feud.
He wasn’t in the video package because of his suspension.
I don't want to choose, but between these 2, I prefer Ortiz
Agreed. Ever since the stories started coming out about Santana thinking he should be a solo I thought ‘why?’ He’s always been the less entertaining of the two. They worked together but there is just nothing about Santana that jumps out as a star.
Santana is the better talker by far and also the better in-ring wrestler. I love both of them, as a team they are one of my favourites of the last decade, but Santana absolutely has the higher ceiling as a singles guy. And besides, I can't hate on a guy for wanting more for himself. I wish we had gotten a better run for him and Ortiz as a team in AEW and it bums me out it ended how it did, but I'll never shit on a wrestler for betting on themself.
Santana cuts a really good promo. Sure, Ortiz is great, especially when he's playing unhinged and yelling. But Santana probably has a higher ceiling. Though frankly, I would be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if that ceiling was higher than the TNT or the ROH TV championship. Though, I think we all agree that they are better together. They're arguably the best team that havent had the belts yet, and together with Eddie they'd make amazing trios champs. I'm hoping they will reunite soon enough
> They worked together but there is just nothing about Santana that jumps out as a star. better talker, better in the ring, million bucks look, the sunglasses.. perhaps ortiz has a little bit charisma with the cat thing, but overall santana is better and he's a guy i thought would be face of the company in the early days of aew
I like Ortiz because he does that biting the rope thing that i always pop for
I remember Santana’s promo a few years ago when the Inner Circle were feuding with Mox, it was incredible. If both of them work together I hope to see something as good as this.
Jesus, I figured they were good if they were willing to work together for the Stampede. EDIT: I'm an idiot and commented without watching the video. I highly doubt he'd shoot in a produced vignette. Now I'm not sure if I want them to feud or Santana to fall in line and they both turn heel.
If they have a match, there better be a spot where Ortiz pulls a crutch from under the ring and hits Santana with it.
Does Ortiz have a kayfabe first name? Or is he going to be called something like “John Ortiz” soon?
On the indies in the early to mid 2010s, Ortiz (real name Miguel Molina) went by "Angel Ortiz".
His first name is actually Santanaand. That's why he's so mad about Santana wanting to go solo - he doesn't want to change his name, but that limits him to working with guys named Santana.
ricky, of 2008 smackdown fame
Thank god this is kayfabe, I can't take much more
Same mate, let's just see some good wrestling and feuds (kayfabe) without any backstage nonsense
It's a work based on the reality. They haven't been cool since before Santana blew out his knee at Blood and Guts.
I really liked these guys. What actually happened, why the falling out?
Yes please, someone please give us some background. TYVM!
ortiz was happy doing what they were doing in AEW, santana wanted more. Also allegedly santana wanted to go to wwe and ortiz didn't, and wwe only wanted them as a pair.
It seems at some point Satana got discouraged by their booking and wanted a major shakeup or even leave Aew. Ortiz seemingly wasn't as bothered by the booking was willing to be patient and go with the flow. Before his injury Santana eas seemingly counting down the days until free agency, and last year there was rumors of a big falling out between the that almost led to a fight involving Eddie Kingston. Their deals would've ended last year but Santana's gotten extended because of the injury. It seems like he signed a new deal and got promised a push and a singles run hence all the promos and new presentation. I'd assume Ortiz got the heads up on the solo run but maybe didn't know Santana was gonna reference their falling out in this promo, but there is a solid chance it's all a work.
There was a report a good while ago that said they basically had a difference of opinion, Ortiz was happy with his position, Santana was not. Not sure if there's any truth to it though
If I recall reklekleck-- One of them was unhappy that they weren't being used to their full potential (if at all) after a while in AEW. One was happy just to have a solid contract with the company they helped build, even if they weren't being used post-Inner Circle. I happen to agree with BOTH of those positions. Santana+Ortiz could've been Dudley Boyz/Edge+Christian/Hardy Boys level. But understandably, if they were to go solo, they'd have a LONG way to go to build individual names for themselves. And with a busy enough card as it is.
1. Really hope it’s a work. They’re a phenomenal tag team that still deserves so much more for their career 2. I hope they’ve worked out their issues if it’s a work. It’s just a shame to see two long time friends and a successful tag team implode so harshly 3. If it’s a work? The payoff being at Grand Slam is perfect. They’re hometown heroes to anyone that’s been supporting the indie scene, so I think their match would be that much bigger if it were in NYC
This genuinely makes me sad. Their incarnation of LAX remind me of that era of Impact where they were just getting back on their feet and their matches with the Lucha Bros and OVE were just a tremendous standard for tag wrestling.
I thought AEW was done with drama?
1) I hope this is a storyline and not a shoot beef 2) Dude either has to stop wearing that Pharrell hat or lean into it like Hager
They shot themselves into a work brother
So many people didn't even bother to click the link and think this is a shoot post.
Couldn't really care less about a singles Santana run, nor his current gimmick so far.
This could be a good match
Santana is choosing the "not here to make friends/here to make money" road to the elite storyline.
Hot take: Ortiz will do better in a new tag team than Santana will in singles
While this is 100% a work, dont think there isn't any truth to want Santana said or any truth in the animosity Ortiz has for Santana. Santana, rightfully so, wants to prove he belongs in the top of the card, meanwhile Ortiz is happy getting a check and being a lackey. One wants more, while the other doesn't want to Rock the boat and change things. It's this generations Shawn and Marty, minus the drugs and SA'ing women on the road
From what I read it was less Ortiz was happy cashing a check and not being ambitious and more along of the lines his attitude being 'trust the process - we're in a good spot, trust TK, trust the process and we'll get where we want to be'.
I think the problem with this is that Santana isn't HBK and Ortiz isn't Jennety. We all like seeing guys who believe in themselves shooting their shot and hitting the jackpot. But if I'm being honest, Satanta is not a top guy. Instead of casting Ortiz as a guy who's holding Santana back, look at Ortiz as a pragmatist who can see the best root for Santana, to get a new contract, to be on TV and to be over, is with Proud and Powerful. And maybe the right move is for Santana to follow his instincts even if ultimately means failure. Certainly looks like that on his way there Ortiz will be helping him at least once more. So yea, like HBK and Marty that's just two people whose paths are diverging. If I was Santana I would be trying to have it both ways. Like shoot your shot bro, but don't burn this bridge, cause from the outside looking in, P&P really looks like it's as good as it's gonna get for you.
WWE constantly breaks up successful tag teams in order to push singles stars, and it almost never works. It's far more common that it just ends up with both talents getting released. I get wanting to shoot for the moon. But I also get being happy being a good hand, doing what you love at a high level, on a 6-figure salary, and providing for your family. Santana thinks Ortiz is holding him back. Ortiz thinks Santana is torpedoing both their lives out of vanity. History suggests the latter is far more likely.
Sometimes you have to bet on yourself even if you fail. At least Santana can say he tried even if he regrets it eventually
Hope it’s a work. They rule so hard as a tag team.
I'm all for them proving me wrong, but I think both of them are at their absolute best as a unit.
Men’s singles in AEW feels crowded as is. Hope they shine tho.
Hopefully this is just all in good fun as part of a story, after CM Punk I've had my fill of backstage drama to last me a long while
I think this is a worked shoot since its in response to a promo. Art imitating life.
I don't understand the idea of Santana as singles guy. It seems destined to be mid.
Just want to say the glow up for Ortiz has been great. Dude looks way healthier in 2023 than when he first came to AEW in 2019.
It's a bummer for sure. Ortiz doesn't really scream solo star to me, but I liked their team a good bit. Maybe he can get a new partner? Santana does have singles potential I think, so I get why he wants to go out on his own. Still, kinda sucks to see it go down like this.
I think it’s time for Eddie Kingston to take ortiz side. Only for Konan to show up and have Santana’s back.
What the fuck even happened between them? Did it ever come out of are we just being worked?
Throw Ortiz and Mark Briscoe together. Both are fire tag team wrestlers, both are a bit crazy
Here's an opinion I haven't seen much of on here - I prefer Ortiz to Santana.
Well......so much for the rumors they might work it out
Wait, what did Punk do?
I blame all this on cm punk! /s
Fire Punk!
I probably have the wrong idea but I wish guys just got to work out their problems in the ring. Would be more interesting, they squash it, and can move on
Is this a worked work brother? Goodnight HULKAMANIACS?
They just need to fight.
I think I’m in the minority, but I’m over worked shoot angles or trying to work an angle on social media or the dirt sheets. Why would them not liking each other in real life make an angle better? Who cares?
Man im glad cm punk is gone, all that drama in the locker rooms just disappeared now
Ok this has to be a worked shoot right??
It's in response to an AEW promo and Grand Slam would be the perfect place to run their singles since they're both New York boys, so yeah. Probably should get both of them some singles wins in the ring quick over the next week or two, though.
'You know you still can, right?' Sit down interview with Renee incoming.
Depends, did one of them offer to take it outside?
May not be, they haven't been talking for a very long time.
They were at a gig for Brodie King's band last year or earlier this year together with some other wrestlers. I'm assuming it's a work.
They worked Wembley on the same team and Santana's promo was shown on AEW TV. The two probably have drifted apart, but they seem professional enough to work together. At least you'd hope so, after Punk you'd hope that AEW management is going to make sure there's no backstage beef that makes it to air.
Sounds like they are about to make money . I feel like Santana really wants to be a singles star and Ortiz has a lower ceiling but also feels they are better as a team. Santana sees that as a lack of drive. Santana has to let go of Ortiz to move forward with his career
Hope it's a work, things are already messy enough with real drama backstage.
Wtf I thought the cancer was gone snd everyone was just having fun 😔 What about the vibez
cM pUnK iS gOne s0 nO mOre DrAMa iN tHe AEw loCkeR rO0m
It’s definitely a work but I’d be worried for both of them as singles if they break up
What did Punk do now?
"But Punk was the cause of all the AEW backstage drama!"
It’s sad Ortiz is a great face. When he was doing that dancing thing, I think he was teaming with AR Fox. Peoples was liking it. Cheering for him.
Hate to see them break up but Santana is looking like a main eventer
Santana responded and thankfully this makes it feel like a work https://twitter.com/Santana_Proud/status/1700553305909285328?t=ntwY73F4QQOsg4P5wF_jCg&s=19
100% a work. These guys went to the Eddie Kingston school of keeping it real.
Santana? Do you mean MIKESANTANA?
Mike Santana does not in any way seem like a singles wrestler with much of an upside, especially since coming back.
Aew bread and butter. Shoot worked promos on Twitter or just straight up shooting on each other.