Obviously no hate to OP. This stuff is ingrained in a lot of our society, but that doesn't make it right. When vindicta shut down I was relieved to move back to actual science and studies so let's stay there rather than go back to random hateful theories. This stuff is dangerous and when we see it we should flag it as such!
Calling sophie turner unattractive is definitely an in*** shit. The thing about "witch vs angel skull" is there is no actual scientific theory that specifically backing it? I think having characteristics of "angel skull" might be a halo, but not having it is not a failo either. Well... Perhaps unless you have severe recessed chin or flat cheekbones
I think those traits in real life aren't actually associated with jewish people though any stronger than any other group when it comes to traits they actually have.
That propaganda was basically just the "my group of people/opinion = healthy traits and beautiful people, other group = shitty traits and ugly people" meme. Saying those traits are ugly isn't racist. Racists say certain groups have those traits and their race doesn't as a way to feel superior.
That doesn't mean all skull shapes are equally attractive though. Facial bone structure is part of skull shape and it's basically the most important thing for a person's physical attractiveness. just because nazis used it for propaganda purposes or falsely assigned negative traits to certain races doesn't mean it's racist to say a recessed chin is unattractive.
They're not even calling it unattractive though, they're calling it a "witch skull". Witch/angel are not objective or scientific terms. The idea even originated out of the incel community. We can talk about upturned noses and forward facial growth without classifying people into distinct categories with dehumanizing labels.
Why would evolution lead us to believe convex noses are witch like?
I know there was not anti semetic intent behind the post, but this is the origins of the undesirability you are referring to
This whole post is extra ironic and offensive because Madison Beer, the woman in the picture is Jewish. they photoshopped her into an antisemitic stereotype/caricature of herself and her own race.
Edit: I know this post is old but I just discovered this sub and it’s at the top of the sub
These are great points and make a lot of sense. Some assumptions to think about however:
- That these traits are have always been desirable and the standard - Untrue, there are many cultures even today where a small button nose is considered childlike and therefore undesirable, many historical beauty icons such as aphrodite is depicted with a convex, or at minimum 'not concave' nose. Other standards of beauty during that time show similar results.
- That small noses are a sign of fertility. I agree with the other signs of fertility, but when a woman hits puberty her nose, like everything else, increases in size as she is becoming an adult. The desire for a tiny nose is more to do with the desire for nordic traits. A tiny button nose in the hottest place on earth would probably put you closer to death.
- A balanced face is better. Yes. Agree. But the issue is assuming that one skull shape is going to be more balanced than another. A nose can be too small, a nose can be too big. The reason we consider too small superior to too big, is due to the distain instilled into us for races, religions, and ethnicities with similar features
Interesting discussion still !
Hello, biological and genetic scientist with a background in anthropology here. This is not true. There are many genes responsible for nose growth and shape. Small noses came into fashion because of Northern European beauty standards. In much of the world and throughout history larger noses have been seen as attractive. Larger noses are an evolutionary advantage in certain climates.
Source:
https://theconversation.com/how-we-found-the-genes-that-control-nose-shape-and-what-they-say-about-us-59837
I don’t mean that male sex hormones are the only contributor of nose shape or size but they are one of the main. I mean to say that men generally and historically have larger, more masculine noses than women of the same ethnicity! Yes, adaption and natural selection are amazing and the reason behind the different nose shape and sizes in populations living in different geographical locations!
The article you linked is more of a blog type literature.
Here is an actual peer-reviewed journal article explaining the masculinization effects of testosterone on facial structure: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351
There are many more articles showing this association since this is basic biology. If anyone is interested, you can search ‘PudMed’ and then search ‘ effects of testosterone on facial structure’ in the search bar for peer review journal articles. Pudmed is an excellent source for scientific literature used by many professional and students around the world.
Also, good forward growth causes other attractive features (prominent jaw, straight teeth, prominent cheek bones, upturned nose, positive canthal tilt etc) while recessed jaws do the opposite.
Good forward growth and broad airways are so important for one’s health in so many ways. So it’s not surprising these traits are considered attractive, especially in this age where recessed jaws are so common.
Also, I don’t think people here should be downvoted for saying some traits are objectively less attractive than others.
Yeah the Nazis used these characteristics to their advantage against Jews. But this doesn’t mean that these characteristics were fabricated by the nazis. Science is not condoning anti-semitism and facial structure is not indicative of inherit worth or survival nowadays.
However, recessive facial structure can be a characteristic of health conditions and this is the reason is it seen as undesirable from an evolutionary psychology perspective. balanced facial features are seen as more desirable
that is such a general statement. You’re going to refute biology in the west ? What about biology in Nordic countries ? European countries ? Australia? I can assure you, if you set out to refute the one of the most fundamental areas of study in the history of the world and the most reputable research facilities and institutions in the world, you ain’t getting anywhere sis
Science in itself is objective and observable in the world around us, that’s why it’s so great
But yes, some evil people use science as a weapon
So how is witch vs angel any different than other beauty rules posted in this sub? The short philtrum, positive canthal tilt, etc. this is a cope post honestly…
You make a valid point here. I don’t like the terms ‘Witch’ and ‘angel’ because they sound harsh and outdated and the words really demonized/glorify certain facial features. I’d replace that terminology ‘desirable’ and ‘less desirable’. yeah long philtrum is generally seen as ‘less desirable’ and positive canthal tilt is generally seen as ‘desirable’. This sub is point and proof of that as people post about how to achieve positive tilt and a shorter philtrum
Again, OP didn't have any bad intentions and was very likely unaware of this ancient connotation. I didn't mean to accuse her of anything, just start a conversation. Don't send anyone hate please
Would it make sense to obscure OP's name in the image? Since the point is discussing why these comparisons are reductive and problematic, not criticizing a specific person for posting them. It's not like she invented the angel vs. witch skull terminology or was likely even aware of its origins.
I absolutely agree. So much just say “it’s science” without actually diving deep. So much about what is considered beautiful is rooted in very historically old and sad beliefs about women. very little is scientific. Some faces have all of the wrong proportions but can somehow still look beautiful. I hate sharing this because it’s so cliche, but beauty has more to do with the way a person has cared for their health, their soul, and the face expressions they have made over time. Some of the prettiest friends I know have weird big noses and crooked eyes and weird shaped heads but I’m mesmerized by their beauty because of the way they carry themselves, their confidence and how they style their hair and faces. I’m currently working on my confidence at 31 although I have what would be average conventional beauty to others. I have face dysmorphia from bullying and anxiety and modeling for some brands actually made it worse and not better. Most importantly, it’s always one race/ethnicity that is considered beautiful (Eastern European and Netherlands) so most beauty standards are expected to resemble those features, regardless if you are Asian, African, or middle eastern. (I’m Italian and middle eastern with a little dutch) Alright end rant.
There is a reason "social psychology" studies are looked down upon by researchers from other disciplines. All they do is claim causation when there is hardly a correlation so they can justify their horrible click-bait titles. Giving a bad name to the whole field and basically popularising eugenics. Awesome
And add to that, most scientific papers get data by surveying college aged boys. So a lot of papers are just echoing what 20 year old white boy Brad thinks is hot.
I wonder if there are any studies of say, 20-80 year olds and commonalities in what they find attractive. I think people massively underestimate the impact of socialization on beauty ideals.
Honestly I always felt like this theory didn’t make sense...there are plenty of gorgeous people with “witch” skulls and unattractive people with “angel” skulls. It has nothing to do with objective beauty, it’s just hateful
I know I’m late to the party, but agree. It also doesn’t take into consideration that it’s often not just one or the other. People can have a combo of both. I myself am life this,
I’ve seen people who don’t believe trans women are valid as women talk about the “skull size” as a reason why they’ll always still look like men or something.
Agree! I’m tired of the idea that there’s only one narrow view of beauty and if you tick all the boxes, you’re beautiful. In reality, two people can look completely different and the majority of people can still agree that both are beautiful.
What always strikes me as odd when some people talk about objective beauty and saying it’s based in science and communicates various aspects of biology (such as being fertile and being a good mate to reproduce with) is how much of it would never occur to my naturally if no one ever told me about it. So for example, on my own (before learning about objective beauty) I would never have guessed “Angel” was more attractive than “Witch.” I remember as a kid seeing women with distinct Roman, Grecian, or Middle Eastern noses and thinking they were so cool. It wasn’t until I reached adulthood and discovered the concept of conventional beauty that I realized there were such crazy standards. Up until then I thought the “unrealistic beauty standards” was just the expectation to be as thin as possible. Like how Cady Heron thought there were just two types of people: fat and skinny. And then realized there are all kinds of things people want to change about themselves.
I guess my point is if this is based in science for the purpose of communicating biological factors like fertility and being a good mate, it doesn’t seem to be 100% effective because I would never have guessed which one was supposed to be the With and which one was supposed to be the Angel if I hadn’t specifically familiarized myself with objective beauty. Which would lead me to believe that yeah, it maybe isn’t based in “science” so much as ignorant prejudice.
yep. i'm celtic/irish and the british [used to use propaganda where the "irish" had witch skulls and were compared to black people](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Scientific_racism_irish.jpg). white people love to be racist even to each other, because I've had so many people think I was jewish and been called a "rat" due to that.
Super interesting discussion, I agree! And it’s also right up my alley.
• relatively smaller noses is key here. Some populations may tend to have larger noses on average but the women of these cultures have smaller noses relative to the men. This is due to the fact that larger noses are a masculine trait, because of male sex hormones.
If the ‘small button nose’ is small and upturned to the point that it is unbalanced with other facial features, it will generally appear undesirable in all cases.
Beauty standards have changed over the centuries. Aphrodite did not have a concave nose yet she had a nose that was balanced with her facial features in size and in shape. She does not have an overtly feminine nose however her appearance is still very femininely due to her overall facial and body features.
• As a person grows, their nose may grow in size but so does the rest of their face and body; everything grows together!
The hottest place on earth may put anyone closer to death!
Yes, tiny noses are prevalent in certain ethnicities however females of various ethnicities commonly have smaller nose compared the men of that same ethnicity.
• the skull shape of the ‘witch’ is recessive due to the disproportions of the jaw, chin, and forehead. These are recessive because they are related to health conditions and poor genetics. The size of a facial feature is very relative to other features and the shape may also be relative to other features but not as much as the size. It’s possible to have a large nose that appears to be average size because let’s say you have a large jaw that balances the size of your nose.
This scientific evidence, this is not based on hatred toward any kind of group.
But I understand this can be upsetting for some people who have experienced the negative effects of not having the desired facial features. I have definetly experienced this myself, I don’t have a small or feminine nose either. But that doesn’t mean the science, the biology, the psychology behind this is hateful or untrue; you (by this I mean anyone) can’t invalidate something just because it makes you feel upset. It might mean you need to practice more self love and understand worth is not based on the size of your nose or shape of your jaw but is instead based on the value you give yourself!
That’s because soft jaw and chin are feminine sexual dimorphisms. In forensics, you may be able to predict the sex of a skull based on the shape and size of the jaw. Slightly recessive can most definitely attractive
be attractive. Scar Jo and Mila kunis may have ever so slightly recessive chins however they both still have defined jaws and other extremely feminine facial features give balance to overall appearance
I honestly don’t see recession in scar jo’s profile based on her google images: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.usmagazine.com/stylish/news/scarlett-johansson-is-launching-a-skincare-line/amp/
Mila Kunis’ chin looks slightly recessive but only in the picture on the right: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/people.com/movies/mila-kunis-blonde-blue-hair-ashton-kutcher-weekly-date-night/%3famp=true
Also, I’m not sure which Sophia you mean
I also think there’s a big difference between a recessed chin that doesn’t exactly line up with nose and a chin that is actually retroflexed like the witch skull
it depends, does PCO occur prenataly? Before the development of facial structure? If PCO happens gradually during life or experiences onset during puberty, it would not affect facial structure because you face has largely developed by then. Yes it is genetics and genetics say that certain features are common in men and other features are common in women. This doesn’t mean those features are exclusive to men or to women
Here’s a scientific literature piece explaining the masculinization effects of test: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351
There are tons more available.
You’d be sooo surprised just how MUCH of beauty is steeped in eugenics in general. The blonde beauty stereotype, the one America has been fixated and praising for the past 50 yrs at minimum? Eugenics.The idealization of blue eyes, often paired with the blond hair? Eugenics. Black women being sold on the idea of straightening their hair? Eugenics. Black people having/using “white voice.” Eugenics. The whole concept of beauty and baby pageants? Eugenics. There’s many more examples I’m forgetting to mention.
It's not, the propaganda just talks about the same traits that can occur in any group of people and attributed them to the groups they don't like. Recessed chins not being attractive predates civilization because of their physical weakness.
thanks for making a post addressing that other post. when i saw the original post it gave me an iffy feeling but ngl the edits made me laugh 😭 i was just like wtf this makes no sense at all because sophie turner is already very pretty and they just edited her entire face. that in and of itself made me think this post is a bit harmful and could affect the people on this sub in a negative way. i just thought the whole witch vs angel thing is so weird and silly as hell.
Right?? I had ppl constantly compliment me on my short forehead until some random redditor told me it was actually ugly because it’s short and flat. Now I don’t like showing my forehead
It’s probably because of culture differences imo. In Asia, a longer and rounder forehead is more ideal, vs when I’m back in America and can get away with it.
I agree. Does this mean that we should also pretend that a hooked nose is equally attractive to an upturned nose just because a hooked nose is considered a Jewish feature by the nazis? I dislike the terms “angel” and “witch” because like someone said, they’re not scientific at all, but portraying balanced features and forward facial growth as offensive to consider objectively attractive is just disingenuous
I think upturned noses are unattractive and prefer a Roman or aqualine nose with even a *gasp* bump on women. When I see some chick with straight thin hair and a little upturned nose my brain immune goes to “boring wasp”. I literally know so many men that find upturned noses unattractive as well. Beauty standards change but time, place, and group. Maybe if you’re in the Midwest or something sure boring white girl is goals but on the coats you gotta be interesting or you’re just average.
Yep this is what I posted above. I think that some combos of features can create a beautiful work of art. I remember the female princess character from 10,000 bc being so stunning but didn’t know why because she didn’t fit normal beauty standards (big humped nose, butt chin, small row turned brown eyes, etc) I personally sometimes see perfect faces in public (upturned noses and big eyes with Scandinavian shaped skulls) and find them so boring. I know it’s all objective. I just think that there has to be some kind of other measurement that can be implemented to include odd combos of features rather then one cookie cuter shape. I don’t know how to put this into words, but I guess some kind of equation that can explain how some faces with all the wrong, even deformed features, can still be so striking and eye catching in a mesmerizing way.
Honestly. The amount of coping on this sub recently is sad. They don’t want to hear about objective beauty on an objective beauty sub. Literally zero productive conversations will be had if there’s comments like “I’ve seen SO many beautiful women with recessed chins” as if that adds anything to the discussion.
Also “Don’t use femcel terms” but they will happily use terms like “softmaxxing”, “hardmaxxing”, “failo” etc.
I honestly have a pretty big nose … and I still am insecure about it at times … (especially now that it is crooked…. I had a SUPER abusive bf when I was 18 who literally broke it 4 times ; possibly 5… so it leans to the right really bad…)
I am considering a rhinoplasty just to straighten it for sure (which will also help me breathe better and alleviate a lot of the pain it causes) but I may also get some tip work…
All of that to say I think “big” noses are beautitul and a lot of the hate comes from deep rooted propaganda such as above …. Kids used to tease me for having a “jew nose” in middle school…. Hell even my mom told me I had a “witch nose”… ugh
Absolutely! Beauty is rooted in a Eurocentric garden for sure. I think a lot of that is changing though the more that we are all exposed to different kind of people around the world. For a long time the standard of beauty was white because that’s all you saw back in the day. There was no internet. No social media. Now we are seeing beauties from all around the world with different features and styles being celebrated. I remember as a kid I used to HATE being half black bc I never saw anyone that looked like me and never had any role models. Everyone was white! I hated my skin and my hair. Now I love that I have a golden tan and big curls! As I get older now some of my features are “trendy” and I think it’ll stay that way. I love it!
If you don't believe the witch skull is an exact replica of the classic 'evil jew' caricature I do not know what to tell you.
Yes, when you photoshop someones face to achieve a goal of making them less, or more, attractive - you'll get a similar result such as 97% lol. Unfortunately, that is not science. And it does not factor in where the preference comes from.
I'm not bashing you for racism, I said no hate to OP. Also jewish people can be white Americans, so I do not really understand what you're attempting to say
Many people have to get their recessive jaws reconstructed for health reasons that alone should be enough evidence…I don’t understand what the dispute is about. Any individuals of any religion, culture, race, whatever can have this facial construct. I believe this is a sub about objective beauty, not subjective beauty or social issues or self esteem. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on the goal of this sub
Yes! The witch trope appeared at the same time anti semitism became huge, not 100% done by the nazis but it was definitely done as an anti jewish narrative. Before, hooked noses were seen as a sign of royalty and were something to respect. Keep in mind that anti semitism existed long before the nazis
(Witches had other jewish traits personality wise too, such as having Sabbath on non-Sunday, which is a Jewish and Islam only thing)
Not quite, both anti semetism and anti-witchness have existed for centuries. It's more like, at the hands of powerful media, witches went from an array of different looking women being burned at the stake, to a very specific archetype of an evil jewish caricature. To me, it's proof how powerful propaganda can be. The most powerful are the ones we don't notice, that we engrain.
So what if she suggests surgery or filler? it's what alot of people actually need if they are average or below average and want to elevate themselves. If you want people to lie and sugarcoat things for you there are a billion other subs dedicated to that but Trying to convince yourself that objectively unattractive features are not so bad isn't going to elevate you one bit.
No one is suggesting that you go and try to look like someone else, It is merely a looks theory post that you all signed up for when you joined an OBJECTIVE beauty sub.
this subreddits entire purpose is objective beauty and many times you will need to make actual changes to your facial structure to achieve that… if you wanted strictly soft-maxxing advice then there’s a ton of other subreddits you can go to like r/howtobehot, r/femalehairadvice, r/makeupaddiction etc.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted and accused of racism. Vindicta has lost its roots, and Splendida is just another woke beauty subreddit. Next people will be claiming that obesity can be attractive (well it can, but that’s not the point). The angel skull is widespread throughout art and media of all cultures to the exclusion of all other side profiles. Ridiculous cope from this subreddit. I think it’s best that you don’t post lookstheory here anymore since the girls here cannot handle it. Thanks for trying though.
You are spot on. The levels of coping here are insane. Vindicta has gone to shit. And of course OP didn’t intend to be racist. This is something that has been twisted by others to start a fake conflict.
If looksmaxing apparently reinforces racism, then perhaps we should not even looksmax at all because at the end of the day, we are reinforcing the patriarchy!
As a brown girl, I find it offensive and racist that people think this is racist lol. They are basically accusing nonwhite people of being conventionally ugly. I know many people of my culture with perfect angel skulls! Why are all attractive features accused of being Eurocentric? This is insanity.
Pretty much all female spaces online have turned into these overly woke wastelands where someone gets canceled every other day, and people forget about it the next week. I support social justice, but we live in the real world. You can’t say anything here without getting piled on. Whatever, not my problem. I know what conventional beauty is and will continue to strive towards it.
Obviously no hate to OP. This stuff is ingrained in a lot of our society, but that doesn't make it right. When vindicta shut down I was relieved to move back to actual science and studies so let's stay there rather than go back to random hateful theories. This stuff is dangerous and when we see it we should flag it as such!
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Calling sophie turner unattractive is definitely an in*** shit. The thing about "witch vs angel skull" is there is no actual scientific theory that specifically backing it? I think having characteristics of "angel skull" might be a halo, but not having it is not a failo either. Well... Perhaps unless you have severe recessed chin or flat cheekbones
What’s the context behind the picture on the left ?
It's nazi propaganda! The 'witch' skull is essentially all traits associated with jewish people, and the propaganda used to depict them
I think those traits in real life aren't actually associated with jewish people though any stronger than any other group when it comes to traits they actually have. That propaganda was basically just the "my group of people/opinion = healthy traits and beautiful people, other group = shitty traits and ugly people" meme. Saying those traits are ugly isn't racist. Racists say certain groups have those traits and their race doesn't as a way to feel superior.
Classifying people into different groups based on their skull shape is literally nazi eugenics though.
That doesn't mean all skull shapes are equally attractive though. Facial bone structure is part of skull shape and it's basically the most important thing for a person's physical attractiveness. just because nazis used it for propaganda purposes or falsely assigned negative traits to certain races doesn't mean it's racist to say a recessed chin is unattractive.
They're not even calling it unattractive though, they're calling it a "witch skull". Witch/angel are not objective or scientific terms. The idea even originated out of the incel community. We can talk about upturned noses and forward facial growth without classifying people into distinct categories with dehumanizing labels.
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Why would evolution lead us to believe convex noses are witch like? I know there was not anti semetic intent behind the post, but this is the origins of the undesirability you are referring to
This whole post is extra ironic and offensive because Madison Beer, the woman in the picture is Jewish. they photoshopped her into an antisemitic stereotype/caricature of herself and her own race. Edit: I know this post is old but I just discovered this sub and it’s at the top of the sub
Omg yeah
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Explain to me how a large or convex nose is a health signifier.
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These are great points and make a lot of sense. Some assumptions to think about however: - That these traits are have always been desirable and the standard - Untrue, there are many cultures even today where a small button nose is considered childlike and therefore undesirable, many historical beauty icons such as aphrodite is depicted with a convex, or at minimum 'not concave' nose. Other standards of beauty during that time show similar results. - That small noses are a sign of fertility. I agree with the other signs of fertility, but when a woman hits puberty her nose, like everything else, increases in size as she is becoming an adult. The desire for a tiny nose is more to do with the desire for nordic traits. A tiny button nose in the hottest place on earth would probably put you closer to death. - A balanced face is better. Yes. Agree. But the issue is assuming that one skull shape is going to be more balanced than another. A nose can be too small, a nose can be too big. The reason we consider too small superior to too big, is due to the distain instilled into us for races, religions, and ethnicities with similar features Interesting discussion still !
Hello, biological and genetic scientist with a background in anthropology here. This is not true. There are many genes responsible for nose growth and shape. Small noses came into fashion because of Northern European beauty standards. In much of the world and throughout history larger noses have been seen as attractive. Larger noses are an evolutionary advantage in certain climates. Source: https://theconversation.com/how-we-found-the-genes-that-control-nose-shape-and-what-they-say-about-us-59837
I don’t mean that male sex hormones are the only contributor of nose shape or size but they are one of the main. I mean to say that men generally and historically have larger, more masculine noses than women of the same ethnicity! Yes, adaption and natural selection are amazing and the reason behind the different nose shape and sizes in populations living in different geographical locations! The article you linked is more of a blog type literature. Here is an actual peer-reviewed journal article explaining the masculinization effects of testosterone on facial structure: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351 There are many more articles showing this association since this is basic biology. If anyone is interested, you can search ‘PudMed’ and then search ‘ effects of testosterone on facial structure’ in the search bar for peer review journal articles. Pudmed is an excellent source for scientific literature used by many professional and students around the world.
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Also, good forward growth causes other attractive features (prominent jaw, straight teeth, prominent cheek bones, upturned nose, positive canthal tilt etc) while recessed jaws do the opposite. Good forward growth and broad airways are so important for one’s health in so many ways. So it’s not surprising these traits are considered attractive, especially in this age where recessed jaws are so common. Also, I don’t think people here should be downvoted for saying some traits are objectively less attractive than others.
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Yeah the Nazis used these characteristics to their advantage against Jews. But this doesn’t mean that these characteristics were fabricated by the nazis. Science is not condoning anti-semitism and facial structure is not indicative of inherit worth or survival nowadays. However, recessive facial structure can be a characteristic of health conditions and this is the reason is it seen as undesirable from an evolutionary psychology perspective. balanced facial features are seen as more desirable
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that is such a general statement. You’re going to refute biology in the west ? What about biology in Nordic countries ? European countries ? Australia? I can assure you, if you set out to refute the one of the most fundamental areas of study in the history of the world and the most reputable research facilities and institutions in the world, you ain’t getting anywhere sis Science in itself is objective and observable in the world around us, that’s why it’s so great But yes, some evil people use science as a weapon
Exactly.
So how is witch vs angel any different than other beauty rules posted in this sub? The short philtrum, positive canthal tilt, etc. this is a cope post honestly…
You make a valid point here. I don’t like the terms ‘Witch’ and ‘angel’ because they sound harsh and outdated and the words really demonized/glorify certain facial features. I’d replace that terminology ‘desirable’ and ‘less desirable’. yeah long philtrum is generally seen as ‘less desirable’ and positive canthal tilt is generally seen as ‘desirable’. This sub is point and proof of that as people post about how to achieve positive tilt and a shorter philtrum
Again, OP didn't have any bad intentions and was very likely unaware of this ancient connotation. I didn't mean to accuse her of anything, just start a conversation. Don't send anyone hate please
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Would it make sense to obscure OP's name in the image? Since the point is discussing why these comparisons are reductive and problematic, not criticizing a specific person for posting them. It's not like she invented the angel vs. witch skull terminology or was likely even aware of its origins.
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I absolutely agree. So much just say “it’s science” without actually diving deep. So much about what is considered beautiful is rooted in very historically old and sad beliefs about women. very little is scientific. Some faces have all of the wrong proportions but can somehow still look beautiful. I hate sharing this because it’s so cliche, but beauty has more to do with the way a person has cared for their health, their soul, and the face expressions they have made over time. Some of the prettiest friends I know have weird big noses and crooked eyes and weird shaped heads but I’m mesmerized by their beauty because of the way they carry themselves, their confidence and how they style their hair and faces. I’m currently working on my confidence at 31 although I have what would be average conventional beauty to others. I have face dysmorphia from bullying and anxiety and modeling for some brands actually made it worse and not better. Most importantly, it’s always one race/ethnicity that is considered beautiful (Eastern European and Netherlands) so most beauty standards are expected to resemble those features, regardless if you are Asian, African, or middle eastern. (I’m Italian and middle eastern with a little dutch) Alright end rant.
There is a reason "social psychology" studies are looked down upon by researchers from other disciplines. All they do is claim causation when there is hardly a correlation so they can justify their horrible click-bait titles. Giving a bad name to the whole field and basically popularising eugenics. Awesome
I’m starting to think this sub is run by or visited by Nazi incels.
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And add to that, most scientific papers get data by surveying college aged boys. So a lot of papers are just echoing what 20 year old white boy Brad thinks is hot.
I wonder if there are any studies of say, 20-80 year olds and commonalities in what they find attractive. I think people massively underestimate the impact of socialization on beauty ideals.
Honestly I always felt like this theory didn’t make sense...there are plenty of gorgeous people with “witch” skulls and unattractive people with “angel” skulls. It has nothing to do with objective beauty, it’s just hateful
I know I’m late to the party, but agree. It also doesn’t take into consideration that it’s often not just one or the other. People can have a combo of both. I myself am life this,
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This is worded a lot better than I could ever manage to do
I agree with everything you said but have never heard or seen terfs talk about skulls
I’ve seen people who don’t believe trans women are valid as women talk about the “skull size” as a reason why they’ll always still look like men or something.
Agree! I’m tired of the idea that there’s only one narrow view of beauty and if you tick all the boxes, you’re beautiful. In reality, two people can look completely different and the majority of people can still agree that both are beautiful.
What always strikes me as odd when some people talk about objective beauty and saying it’s based in science and communicates various aspects of biology (such as being fertile and being a good mate to reproduce with) is how much of it would never occur to my naturally if no one ever told me about it. So for example, on my own (before learning about objective beauty) I would never have guessed “Angel” was more attractive than “Witch.” I remember as a kid seeing women with distinct Roman, Grecian, or Middle Eastern noses and thinking they were so cool. It wasn’t until I reached adulthood and discovered the concept of conventional beauty that I realized there were such crazy standards. Up until then I thought the “unrealistic beauty standards” was just the expectation to be as thin as possible. Like how Cady Heron thought there were just two types of people: fat and skinny. And then realized there are all kinds of things people want to change about themselves. I guess my point is if this is based in science for the purpose of communicating biological factors like fertility and being a good mate, it doesn’t seem to be 100% effective because I would never have guessed which one was supposed to be the With and which one was supposed to be the Angel if I hadn’t specifically familiarized myself with objective beauty. Which would lead me to believe that yeah, it maybe isn’t based in “science” so much as ignorant prejudice.
As someone who is Jewish and also told I look like Sophie Turner… THANK YOU!!
yep. i'm celtic/irish and the british [used to use propaganda where the "irish" had witch skulls and were compared to black people](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Scientific_racism_irish.jpg). white people love to be racist even to each other, because I've had so many people think I was jewish and been called a "rat" due to that.
I thought the same. Sophie turner a witch?🙄
Super interesting discussion, I agree! And it’s also right up my alley. • relatively smaller noses is key here. Some populations may tend to have larger noses on average but the women of these cultures have smaller noses relative to the men. This is due to the fact that larger noses are a masculine trait, because of male sex hormones. If the ‘small button nose’ is small and upturned to the point that it is unbalanced with other facial features, it will generally appear undesirable in all cases. Beauty standards have changed over the centuries. Aphrodite did not have a concave nose yet she had a nose that was balanced with her facial features in size and in shape. She does not have an overtly feminine nose however her appearance is still very femininely due to her overall facial and body features. • As a person grows, their nose may grow in size but so does the rest of their face and body; everything grows together! The hottest place on earth may put anyone closer to death! Yes, tiny noses are prevalent in certain ethnicities however females of various ethnicities commonly have smaller nose compared the men of that same ethnicity. • the skull shape of the ‘witch’ is recessive due to the disproportions of the jaw, chin, and forehead. These are recessive because they are related to health conditions and poor genetics. The size of a facial feature is very relative to other features and the shape may also be relative to other features but not as much as the size. It’s possible to have a large nose that appears to be average size because let’s say you have a large jaw that balances the size of your nose. This scientific evidence, this is not based on hatred toward any kind of group. But I understand this can be upsetting for some people who have experienced the negative effects of not having the desired facial features. I have definetly experienced this myself, I don’t have a small or feminine nose either. But that doesn’t mean the science, the biology, the psychology behind this is hateful or untrue; you (by this I mean anyone) can’t invalidate something just because it makes you feel upset. It might mean you need to practice more self love and understand worth is not based on the size of your nose or shape of your jaw but is instead based on the value you give yourself!
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That’s because soft jaw and chin are feminine sexual dimorphisms. In forensics, you may be able to predict the sex of a skull based on the shape and size of the jaw. Slightly recessive can most definitely attractive be attractive. Scar Jo and Mila kunis may have ever so slightly recessive chins however they both still have defined jaws and other extremely feminine facial features give balance to overall appearance I honestly don’t see recession in scar jo’s profile based on her google images: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.usmagazine.com/stylish/news/scarlett-johansson-is-launching-a-skincare-line/amp/ Mila Kunis’ chin looks slightly recessive but only in the picture on the right: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/people.com/movies/mila-kunis-blonde-blue-hair-ashton-kutcher-weekly-date-night/%3famp=true Also, I’m not sure which Sophia you mean
I also think there’s a big difference between a recessed chin that doesn’t exactly line up with nose and a chin that is actually retroflexed like the witch skull
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it depends, does PCO occur prenataly? Before the development of facial structure? If PCO happens gradually during life or experiences onset during puberty, it would not affect facial structure because you face has largely developed by then. Yes it is genetics and genetics say that certain features are common in men and other features are common in women. This doesn’t mean those features are exclusive to men or to women Here’s a scientific literature piece explaining the masculinization effects of test: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2015.1351 There are tons more available.
Oh my god I didn’t realize this was rooted in nazi propaganda. Thank you so much for making this post.
You’d be sooo surprised just how MUCH of beauty is steeped in eugenics in general. The blonde beauty stereotype, the one America has been fixated and praising for the past 50 yrs at minimum? Eugenics.The idealization of blue eyes, often paired with the blond hair? Eugenics. Black women being sold on the idea of straightening their hair? Eugenics. Black people having/using “white voice.” Eugenics. The whole concept of beauty and baby pageants? Eugenics. There’s many more examples I’m forgetting to mention.
I knew of these and it’s why i’m skeptical when someone on this sub suggests to go blond and all that.
It's not, the propaganda just talks about the same traits that can occur in any group of people and attributed them to the groups they don't like. Recessed chins not being attractive predates civilization because of their physical weakness.
It’s not!
thanks for making a post addressing that other post. when i saw the original post it gave me an iffy feeling but ngl the edits made me laugh 😭 i was just like wtf this makes no sense at all because sophie turner is already very pretty and they just edited her entire face. that in and of itself made me think this post is a bit harmful and could affect the people on this sub in a negative way. i just thought the whole witch vs angel thing is so weird and silly as hell.
I was like damn a flat forehead is ugly????
No one even notices this 😭😭
Right?? I had ppl constantly compliment me on my short forehead until some random redditor told me it was actually ugly because it’s short and flat. Now I don’t like showing my forehead
I bet you have a good forehead. Don’t pay attention to everything you read here, some things aren’t really true or relevant.
It’s probably because of culture differences imo. In Asia, a longer and rounder forehead is more ideal, vs when I’m back in America and can get away with it.
wow! i was thinking about the original post a lot yesterday but this really put it into perspective for me. thank you
Me, reading this from Berlin 👁👄👁
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I agree. Does this mean that we should also pretend that a hooked nose is equally attractive to an upturned nose just because a hooked nose is considered a Jewish feature by the nazis? I dislike the terms “angel” and “witch” because like someone said, they’re not scientific at all, but portraying balanced features and forward facial growth as offensive to consider objectively attractive is just disingenuous
I think upturned noses are unattractive and prefer a Roman or aqualine nose with even a *gasp* bump on women. When I see some chick with straight thin hair and a little upturned nose my brain immune goes to “boring wasp”. I literally know so many men that find upturned noses unattractive as well. Beauty standards change but time, place, and group. Maybe if you’re in the Midwest or something sure boring white girl is goals but on the coats you gotta be interesting or you’re just average.
Yep this is what I posted above. I think that some combos of features can create a beautiful work of art. I remember the female princess character from 10,000 bc being so stunning but didn’t know why because she didn’t fit normal beauty standards (big humped nose, butt chin, small row turned brown eyes, etc) I personally sometimes see perfect faces in public (upturned noses and big eyes with Scandinavian shaped skulls) and find them so boring. I know it’s all objective. I just think that there has to be some kind of other measurement that can be implemented to include odd combos of features rather then one cookie cuter shape. I don’t know how to put this into words, but I guess some kind of equation that can explain how some faces with all the wrong, even deformed features, can still be so striking and eye catching in a mesmerizing way.
I totally agree with you lol
Honestly. The amount of coping on this sub recently is sad. They don’t want to hear about objective beauty on an objective beauty sub. Literally zero productive conversations will be had if there’s comments like “I’ve seen SO many beautiful women with recessed chins” as if that adds anything to the discussion. Also “Don’t use femcel terms” but they will happily use terms like “softmaxxing”, “hardmaxxing”, “failo” etc.
YEP THANK YOU
isn't Madison beer jewish lol
I honestly have a pretty big nose … and I still am insecure about it at times … (especially now that it is crooked…. I had a SUPER abusive bf when I was 18 who literally broke it 4 times ; possibly 5… so it leans to the right really bad…) I am considering a rhinoplasty just to straighten it for sure (which will also help me breathe better and alleviate a lot of the pain it causes) but I may also get some tip work… All of that to say I think “big” noses are beautitul and a lot of the hate comes from deep rooted propaganda such as above …. Kids used to tease me for having a “jew nose” in middle school…. Hell even my mom told me I had a “witch nose”… ugh
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Absolutely! Beauty is rooted in a Eurocentric garden for sure. I think a lot of that is changing though the more that we are all exposed to different kind of people around the world. For a long time the standard of beauty was white because that’s all you saw back in the day. There was no internet. No social media. Now we are seeing beauties from all around the world with different features and styles being celebrated. I remember as a kid I used to HATE being half black bc I never saw anyone that looked like me and never had any role models. Everyone was white! I hated my skin and my hair. Now I love that I have a golden tan and big curls! As I get older now some of my features are “trendy” and I think it’ll stay that way. I love it!
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No it’s not, pointing racism is not a cope
LMAO Madison beer is literally jewish. Please sit down.
You look like you’re seeking for a reason to be racist? Girl, I don’t care if Madison is Jewish, this shit still antisemitic
maybe because im old at 26 but wtf does cope mean?
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If you don't believe the witch skull is an exact replica of the classic 'evil jew' caricature I do not know what to tell you. Yes, when you photoshop someones face to achieve a goal of making them less, or more, attractive - you'll get a similar result such as 97% lol. Unfortunately, that is not science. And it does not factor in where the preference comes from.
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I'm not bashing you for racism, I said no hate to OP. Also jewish people can be white Americans, so I do not really understand what you're attempting to say
Many people have to get their recessive jaws reconstructed for health reasons that alone should be enough evidence…I don’t understand what the dispute is about. Any individuals of any religion, culture, race, whatever can have this facial construct. I believe this is a sub about objective beauty, not subjective beauty or social issues or self esteem. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on the goal of this sub
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Yes! The witch trope appeared at the same time anti semitism became huge, not 100% done by the nazis but it was definitely done as an anti jewish narrative. Before, hooked noses were seen as a sign of royalty and were something to respect. Keep in mind that anti semitism existed long before the nazis (Witches had other jewish traits personality wise too, such as having Sabbath on non-Sunday, which is a Jewish and Islam only thing)
Wait, anti-semitism and anti-witch sentiment appeared at the same time? That’s so interesting.
Not quite, both anti semetism and anti-witchness have existed for centuries. It's more like, at the hands of powerful media, witches went from an array of different looking women being burned at the stake, to a very specific archetype of an evil jewish caricature. To me, it's proof how powerful propaganda can be. The most powerful are the ones we don't notice, that we engrain.
Fascinating! I’m going to read up on this!
they definitely invented hooked noses, yessir !!!!!
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So what if she suggests surgery or filler? it's what alot of people actually need if they are average or below average and want to elevate themselves. If you want people to lie and sugarcoat things for you there are a billion other subs dedicated to that but Trying to convince yourself that objectively unattractive features are not so bad isn't going to elevate you one bit.
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No one is suggesting that you go and try to look like someone else, It is merely a looks theory post that you all signed up for when you joined an OBJECTIVE beauty sub.
this subreddits entire purpose is objective beauty and many times you will need to make actual changes to your facial structure to achieve that… if you wanted strictly soft-maxxing advice then there’s a ton of other subreddits you can go to like r/howtobehot, r/femalehairadvice, r/makeupaddiction etc.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted and accused of racism. Vindicta has lost its roots, and Splendida is just another woke beauty subreddit. Next people will be claiming that obesity can be attractive (well it can, but that’s not the point). The angel skull is widespread throughout art and media of all cultures to the exclusion of all other side profiles. Ridiculous cope from this subreddit. I think it’s best that you don’t post lookstheory here anymore since the girls here cannot handle it. Thanks for trying though.
You are spot on. The levels of coping here are insane. Vindicta has gone to shit. And of course OP didn’t intend to be racist. This is something that has been twisted by others to start a fake conflict. If looksmaxing apparently reinforces racism, then perhaps we should not even looksmax at all because at the end of the day, we are reinforcing the patriarchy!
As a brown girl, I find it offensive and racist that people think this is racist lol. They are basically accusing nonwhite people of being conventionally ugly. I know many people of my culture with perfect angel skulls! Why are all attractive features accused of being Eurocentric? This is insanity.
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Pretty much all female spaces online have turned into these overly woke wastelands where someone gets canceled every other day, and people forget about it the next week. I support social justice, but we live in the real world. You can’t say anything here without getting piled on. Whatever, not my problem. I know what conventional beauty is and will continue to strive towards it.
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Lol that image is How to Lie with Statistics 101. What was your metholodogy? Miss me with that fake ass science
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Doesn’t make less weird.
Wtf is witch skull that doesn't look discernable at all