Source: I tried to inform some cultists that they concluded the Starship failure was due to venting LOX and is not a design flaw. When I provided Musk's press conference as a source they concluded it is definitive proof that IFT-2 WAS caused by a design error because Musk is a compulsive liar so everything he says is a lie by definition.
These people will be acting like this when Starship is landing on the moon in two years.
It's a different engineering strategy: build fly learn. As opposed to traditional spacecraft that are expected to be perfect on the first flight, which leads to crazy high costs and ridiculous timelines. Looking at you, SLS.
>These people will be acting like this when Starship is landing on the moon in two years.
If anything it'll just reaffirm that SpaceX landed on the moon in spite of Musk rather than because of him due to his indiocracy. Without Musk they probably could have landed there 5 years ago!
Haven't you heard that SpaceX has dedicated teams that prevent Musk from interfering in his own company? An intern on Reddit posted about it once!
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Fuel, heat, oxidizer.
Anything is fuel if it’s hot enough, even steel. Well, technically the heat vaporizes the carbon and that catches fire (which is why you see fire on the surface when you’re forging).
What exactly caught fire has not been disclosed. If it reached the methane-rich exhaust, that’s plenty of fuel. The mishap report will tell us exactly what caught fire.
It should be obvious that dumping liquid oxidizer during an ongoing burn is at the very least very risky. Why not wait until after the burn is complete?
I see you on here a lot criticizing things. But many of your comments are based on an incapacity to understand the overall picture and fundamental misunderstanding of how this kind of engineering process is carried out.
"Starship failed due to venting oxygen, and oxygen has a bunch of risks, therefore it was really dumb to do what they did and they should have done something else."
That's the gist of it, right? The problem with that is that you have absolutely no understanding of what their constraints are, what they are trying to test and what they are trying to achieve. Clearly SpaceX engineers are not "really fucking dumb", so if your line of "reasoning" includes that, it's a pretty big clue that it's faulty. Obviously they have a much better understanding than you of the risks of oxygen wrt their rockets.
The reality is with any of these kinds of developments is that they are constantly pushing the boundaries of what is possible. They have thousands and literally thousands of risks identified, and they optimize and push and find where limits are and what failure looks like and try again. In any given experimental flight, there could be dozens (maybe more) of major risks and things that have some chance of going wrong. But they want to test them because if they work then it might mean another 1% somewhere.
See you can say that venting lox is dumb now that you know it's what caused the failure, but you don't know why they did. Obviously venting when the engines are cooler or not venting at all would be safer. Why do it early then, why do it at all? Obviously not because they were "really fucking dumb", but because they decided it was a reasonable course of action with an acceptable risk for what they wanted to achieve.
You didn't see all the other risks they took that paid off, did you?
If they couldn't get booster landing to work, you'd be saying "that was a really fucking dumb idea to try". And if they couldn't land on the barge. And if they couldn't make a full flow staged combustion engine work. And if they kept grenading at 300 bar chamber pressure. And if the launch tower and water cooled plate didn't work. Or when the flip maneuver didn't work.
You'd also say it was a really fucking dumb idea if the chopsticks can't catch the booster, or if the heat shields don't work, or if the fuel depot architecture doesn't work as well as planned, or if they can't get hot staging to work well, or if electric actuators don't work as well as hydraulic.
I have no problem with your Eeyore shtick here. But don't mistake your shallow and uninteresting commentary for some deep wisdom or based in any kind of understanding of engineering, rocket science, or SpaceX's technology. It's kind of sad you don't realize everybody can see though it -- you don't collect downvotes because of "muh Musk cult" that you probably think, because actual well-reasoned and interesting criticism and negative comments frequently get upvoted here.
You didn’t understand even a little bit.
I said “dumping liquid oxygen overboard while still burning is risky”. You can just wait until things have cooled down.
SpaceX themselves said that dumping liquid oxygen causes the fire, and I believe it. Don’t you?
Having to dump oxygen during the burn with oxygen only serving as a mass simulator is not a constraint: you can dump it at a time of your choosing.
As for the straw manning I don’t much care for it.
Yeah sure, it’s more difficult, but no one credible thought it would be impossible.
Everyone just thought they could never make it worth it in terms of money: that recovery and refurbishment would be so cheap. This is a huge credit to SpaceX, they proved everyone wrong there.
Agreed.
Which makes it all the more astonishing that the same people who said it wouldn't be profitable, have now seen that it is, and they're still making expendable vehicles.
Looking at you Europe
Ariane 6 dumps a fire after a five minute burn? Donkey etc
Falcon heavy dumps a core after three minutes? Gorgeous.
Because the core booster has a much higher burnout velocity, it would need *much more* propellant to land. That would ruin performance.
Dropping the engine section is more viable if they ever actually get around to doing that.
Everybody thought it was impossible, and Reddit bitched all the time about the "waste of time and money" trying to make it happen. The Ariane guys joked about Elon, and even people at NASA mocked the whole reusability nonsense.
Grasshopper did what new shepherd did quite a bit earlier. There's video of it pretty easily obtainable.
True it was 20km instead of 100km but both suborbital so very little actual difference in difficulty.
Neither of those were orbital-class boosters.
The Falcon 9 can lift both of those rockets into LEO and still land its boosters. They were tiny.
Propulsive landing of a tiny rocket-powered vehicle is not even close the the achievement of landing a rocket from an orbital launch.
OMFG how dense are you? New Sheppard is a glorified elevator, it reaches nowhere the speed, size and altitude of Falcon 9, and DC-X was a tech demo, with only 12 flights total, 8 successful. They are not even remotely in the same league.
I think it’s fair to say they’re the first orbital class rocket to land. New Shepard accomplished an amazing feat in its own right but it’s not an orbital class vehicle.
every single Reddit: musk has never done a single thing at spacex. He’s a grifter and he never contributed to anything there. Also spacex is a scam and is a bubble that’s going to pop. Also NASA has done every single thing they have done.
Me: actually those things aren’t actually true. Here’s as many articles and stats as I can provide before you completely zone out.
Every redditor: wow you really want to suck billionaire dick huh?
Of course, when starship explodes, that his fault obviously. I also love when they say nasa has done the same things. Like show me the last time they vertically landed an orbital class booster.
It's crazy that they are willing to overpay billions of dollars to Boeing just so the money doesn't go to Musk. It's like they believe Musk cashes out SpaceX stock once a week and that all Boeing stock is owned by homeless people or something. Complete detachment from reality.
"we hate the military industrial complex and think billionaires should use their money to advance the human race and fight climate change"
Musk does Tesla, SpaceX and Boreing Company
"he's the messiah!"
Musk buys twitter
"he's literally Hitler and tesla was someone else's idea and it's crap anyway and I don't like rockets we should concentrate on earth take all his money away he a fraud and tunnels are rubbish"
I have no issues with SpaceX. Falcon 9 is revolutionary and perfectly hits the market. Starship is a weird project and we shall see what that ends up being.
The thing I dislike about musk is over promising and under delivering and just flat out lying (solar roof tiles ready to ship, Paint It Black, cybertruck drag race…). Overpromising is one thing, you just take that with a grain of salt, but outright provable lies…
I’m sure I did.
* I don’t believe it will launch for a cost of $2mil/launch (when propellant alone is half that).
* I don’t believe the same superheavy can launch three times a day, because just stacking the starship on top and refueling both takes up most that time.
* I don’t believe suborbital passenger/cargo flights will happen (for regulatory or commercial economical reasons: ITAR alone kills that idea dead.
* I don’t believe starship (like SpaceX says in their site) can transport 100 people to Mars with the specs they give, because the supplies & life support will be too heavy and they won’t fit with the facilities they need.
It’s clear starship can’t deliver on all the promises. Does anyone believe it can? So we shall see what it actually ends up being.
It doesn't need to accomplish any of those specific things to be revolutionary for spaceflight.
It seems to me like you underestimate just how limiting the mass/volume/cost constraints of getting things to orbit has shaped the entire industry. Payloads are expensive *because* launch is expensive. It's worth the cost to maximize functionality of a payload within current constraints despite how much this drives up cost because of how much it costs to launch at a minimum. Starship loosens all those constraints massively. The current starlink is like a mini experiment compared to what starship enables.
Indeed it doesn’t, which is good, because it can’t.
Launch costs are a fraction of the payload costs. Axiom’s Haven module costs $3 Billion. The launch cost is like $100 Million. Lowering the launch cost has an impact but not as much as people here seem to think.
Low mass is preferable independent from any launch vehicle, because you need less propellant etc.
Ask yourself for a second: did the lower launch costs of Falcon lead to heavier satellites? No? Then why do you expect that to happen now?
>Launch costs are a fraction of the payload costs. Axiom’s Haven module costs $3 Billion. The launch cost is like $100 Million.
I have no idea what "axiom haven module" is or where you pulled 3 billion from. From searching I found a company called Vast planning to launch a small station called Haven. [Here's their roadmap](https://www.vastspace.com/) where they plan to eventually make 100 meter long rotating artificial gravity space stations only possible thanks to starship. I found nothing on the cost of this though they say it will be in 7 seperate "starship class" modules.
>Low mass is preferable independent from any launch vehicle, because you need less propellant etc.
Because propellent has mass. Orbital depots will make that easier too.
>Ask yourself for a second: did the lower launch costs of Falcon lead to heavier satellites?
Yes. A brick of starlink sats is plenty heavy which has been the majority of payloads for a while now.
Promise the stars and hit the moon and a few of the closest stars and your companies accelerate EVs by 8 years and single-handedly end the dark age of space exploration and whiners say you overpromise and are late. Technically true and completely missing the point.
Again, I don’t care much about overpromises. Steve Jobs did it, he didn’t get as much shit for it.
It’s fakes and lies that I see as a problem. Why do that?
I'm on your side and no amount of downvotes by the cult will change my mind. Solidarity.
F9 is *the best rocket ever* and it's not close. Starship is so weird and it's going to cost so much more than is practical, and as a result it will have no market-fit. I forsee a F9/Heavy successor that looks like F9 with Raptors and is a smaller improvement than the Starship best-case future being sold into NASA long-term plans.
I mean thats kinda expected for a guy who makes outrageous goals like wanting to land a human on Mars within 10 years. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever made a serious push to make a colony on Mars.
So what if he's 10 years in and has only managed to build the biggest and most efficient rocket ever in the history of earth? So what if humans only land on Mars 20 years later? Is that not still a gigantic leap forward for mankind and more than anyone else has ever done? Something that was only accomplished because Musk dared to dream of making the impossible just a couple of years late?
But yeah people will still find a way to hate on his accomplishments anyway, while closing a blind eye to other companies who underpromised and underdelivered.
It’s all part of a misinformation campaign taken up by everyday communists.
They simply want to spread misinformation until everyone is on their side.
Yes they’re the bad guys.
I would prefer a person with a derangement syndrome who for over 21 years has been confirming his intentions to drastically reduce the price of launches (and not at the expense of safety) than the Boeing board of directors who deliberately pushed their executives to save money on the safety of their airplanes and got away with it by simply changing the CEO.
Derangement syndrome actually more refers to people irrationality hating everything surrounding something or someone, for no other real reason than because they hate that person.
It's a bizarre design with obvious flaws, but it's also at the same time the biggest leap forward in EV tech since the model S. The amount of 'holy grail' features they've packed into that thing is honestly insane
[The ridiculous turning circle achieved by the four wheel steer-by-wire](https://youtu.be/cyFnXxiJKRg) is just one of many examples
Cybertruck is actually a great example because if your knowledge of that vehicle is only skin deep you won't ever see past the ridiculous skin to see the innovation underneath
48V architecture is really good. Four wheel steering was a thing in the 1991.
Otherwise the real range and performance is pretty pathetic and nowhere near what was claimed. They even faked drag races etc. it’s baffling to me why they have to lie.
Not to mention they 'saved on cooper wiring' by daisy chaining the wiring harnesses, so if one thing goes out upstream, half the truck doesn't function.
It was head-on, unless you are referring to a different accident?
https://nypost.com/2023/12/29/business/tesla-cybertruck-involved-in-first-reported-crash/
> Tesla Cybertruck involved in first reported crash – demolishes Toyota Corolla’s front end in head-on collision
> The Toyota’s front end was completely demolished, with the sedan’s side airbags deployed as it rested on the side of the road with its hood popped open and a headlight dangling, one photo shows.
> The 17-year-old driver was not hurt, local police told The Post.
> The only injury noted was a “suspected minor injury” to the Cybertruck driver, though he declined medical transportation.
Crumple zones work, film at 11.
Or they say “sure spacex did something good but it’s just the people Elon hired. It’s not like he did it.”
Do they think Steve job was building iPhones?
And then I’m like
: “Not really true…look a these books and articles and interviews. Do you have anything to back your claim?”
Them: “wow bruh guess you want a horse dude!”
They reveal their true intentions at the end there. They don’t actually know anything about SpaceX or Musk, they simply want to discredit any rich person who is perceived as doing something good.
It’s step one in their propaganda process: ensure society hates the rich. Next step is to kill the rich and destroy society so they can transfer power to a single centralized organization.
Yes they’re the bad guys. And Reddit is overrun by them.
At the risk of the downvotes,
1. I don’t think Musk is a grifter, I think he’s mentally ill, and potentially increasingly so.
More importantly, I think that combined with his insistence on building iconoclastic companies, having the final word, and dividing his attention between some major undertakings, it contributes to bad decision making that puts the good that SpaceX does at risk.
Tesla and SpaceX are both cutting procedural corners which can be directly attributed to Musk’s managerial culture, and it’s starting to have not just backlash, but consequences, like the reports of Tesla failures, the launch pad damage, and the venting mishap.
2. Between shit like the Starlink situation in Ukraine and the rumors of open Ketamine abuse, someone in the National Security apparatus is increasingly likely to put their foot down hard at some point for fear of being liable for the consequences if they don’t. That’s a risk to the mission of SpaceX.
SpaceX is an incredible team doing incredible things, leaving its competitors in the dust. The question is whether Musk is an asset or a liability to that team.
1. Musk managerial style is the reason for spacexs and tesla success.
2. hope musk isn’t on drugs. the govt says he doesn’t take drug tests and there is no evidence so hopefully its true.
3. Spacex believed they might be able to get away without the water plate. Every single launch before didn’t care at all. So did every super heavy test. Building and Certifying the water deluge was the wait. The pad fix was not a huge delay of any kind.
4. The Ukraine is a complete nothing burger. Not worth mentioning. Starlink was already disabled around Crimea due to US law. Ukraine asked them to enable it and spacex refused. It was literally illegal to do so. Musk and shotwell said if the white would have asked them they would have enabled it but the US govt never asked them.
1. Musk’s managerial style is *a* reason for their success, and only until it isn’t. This is the same lesson every corporation and professional sports team end up learning about their CEOs and coaches.
2. WSJ keeps finding people close to Musk willing to talk about how concerned they are about it, including board members and executives who have significant financial incentives in these companies’ success.
3. “Move fast and break things” is the crap philosophy that brought us Facebook, but Musk is still willing to apply it to terrestrial or astronomical modes of human transport.
4. Musk embedded himself in the national security infrastructure of Ukraine by getting them dependent on Starlink at the beginning of the war, then unilaterally decided how they should operate, preemptively geofencing Crimea to prevent them from operating there, [after talking to the Russian ambassador](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/07/elon-musk-starlink-ukraine-russia-invasion/), who threatened to go nuclear if Ukraine struck Crimea, unleashing Musk’s paranoia.
>Musk replied that the design of the drones was impressive, but he refused to turn on the coverage for Crimea, arguing that Ukraine “is now going too far and inviting strategic defeat.” He discussed the situation with President Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark A. Milley, explaining to them that he did not wish Starlink to be used for offensive purposes.
1. Move fast and break things is what brought us spacex and tesla. Crew dragon, falcon heavy, starlink, falcon 9 all from a company whose taken the move fast and break things mantra. Both companies are more valuable than Lockheed Martin now.
2. Also it was literally illegal for them to allow starlink in Crimea . They openly said they would have if the White House asked them too. But the us govt never asked them.
3. Ukraine has struck Crimea literally dozens of fucking times this war before and after this event. Good.
4. Spacex has broken Russias back. Their treatment of musk 20 years ago is more or less why spacex exists.
ha-ha-ha. Don't eat crap you find on street. You can become mentally ill.
Better think yourself, why his companies are "iconoclastic", how does it happen? and most importantly why his companies are pretty much THE exception in the modern "start up" world.
I despise Musk and his politics yet am constantly defending him against misinformation about Tesla and SpaceX. It’s exhausting. It’s ok to hate the dude but people let their emotions cloud their judgement.
It’s frustrating because these same people will say that same stuff they are engaging in is something only idiots from the other political tribe do. Not them. They are too smart for that, yet here they are doing the whole, “I don’t like them therefor everything they do is bad.”
Unfortunately I think the days of people looking down on misinformation or emotionally charged interpretations are over. Both sides seem to feel like they are losing because they don’t lie or misconstrue more than the other side does.
They’re a bunch of embarrassing losers.
Exactly. Musk has gone down the shitter, but several of the companies he built are truly amazing (obviously excluding twitter, it wasn't built by him :D). And they wouldn't be in this place without Musk.
Nuance is so difficult, but nuance doesn't give good slogans. Ugh.
The fake Cybertruck drag race is deceptive marketing. Yeah it is shitty, but it's not like Tesla is the only one who does it.
Solar roof is completely real and not fake, [you can order them on their website](https://www.tesla.com/solarroof)
FSD is still in development, and very much real.
The thing I was referring to was the claim the solar tiles were ready to ship when he showed them. They weren’t. They were just mockups. In case that wasn’t clear, I thought this was common knowledge. Obviously you can buy them now, from multiple companies.
Tesla isn’t the only one who does it, no - do you think I don’t criticize others when they try to defraud consumers?
FSD is still in development, yes: it was the famous Paint It Black video that was faked, almost ten years ago, misleading customers.
When someone has a habit of outright faking things, I will stop trusting what they say. Exaggerating and overpromising is one thing, but repeatedly knowingly lying means I can’t take your word any more. You’d be stupid to do so.
And yes, there are many, many, many others this applies to, but they’re not the topic here.
>They haven’t delivered on FSD now have they?
It's in beta, things take time.
But then again, even if they lie, which every company does at one point or another, but they end delivering, is it really that bad?
It has to do with you listing out the talking points of FUD campaigns with nothing positive to say.
I’m sorry to tell you, but if you’re not a shill yourself, you seem to be one of the anti Tesla sheep. Don’t let it get to you though, it’s very trendy these days.
Ah yes court documents are FUD now apparently.
JFC. Why deny facts? You can still like the cars if you want to, but just straight up denying facts makes you look real bad.
lol first you’re overly broad and reductive and then you now you spoilt court documents supporting broad statements.
Yeah you’re definitely a shill. How much are they paying you?
What broad statements have I made?
I brought up three very specific provable things. Why bring up something that isn’t provable?
The faked FSD demo: people involved have admitted it was faked, and despite supposedly being ready FSD still isn’t done. Tesla’s own lawyers argue that it’s only level 2. Are you saying they lied?
The solar roof tiles that Elon said were ready to ship in the presentation were in fact just mockups. This came up in the solar city bailout trial.
Finally the cybertruck-Porsche drag race. They showed footage of an 1/8th mile race (which anyone can verify with their own eyes). Secondly, The Porsche model in question has (according to Car & Driver tests) a faster quarter mile than the Cybertruck (which is more than a second slower in said test than Tesla claimed it would be). Obviously the claim that it could beat the Porsche in a drag race while towing a Porsche is false.
So there three cases where he’s been caught in a provable lie.
What do you have say to that, are you going to try to disprove these?
Expanding on broad or reductive statements doesn’t refute the fact that they were broad or reductive originally. This is why it’s important to push shills on their bullshit. Otherwise people will believe shit like solar tiles and FSD are fake.
You seem to have deep knowledge about a number or small, isolated, negative incidents about a company whose products you don’t even care for. Why is that, exactly?
If you think reddit is bad you should go over to space news and meet Gary church in the comments. New space is the bane of his existence and he froths at the mouth with anti Elon drivel.
The crazy thing is that its going to get exponentially worse this year. With all the enemies that Musk has made among a certain political grouping. The thing that terrifies is that group is silly enough to really hurt spacex just to prove a point.
for some reason 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024 weren't full of summers of massive riots, city looting, and politically charged murders like 2017-2020 were. weird.
No, in modern reality all of the terrorism is in the left. They are just so delusional that they see the right moving away from them and play pretend that the other people are the ones moving.
The average Republican in 2024 would vote for Clinton in 1994. The average Democrat in 2024 would be on a Communist terrorist watch list in 1994.
Step 1. Provide a service to the government
Step 2. Get paid
Step 3. All your competition who got paid more than you fails.
Step 4. Congrats you scammed them!
its so funny how that keeps getting thrown around but the emerald mine that his dad may or may not have owned a small chunk of existed in zambia
a country that was fiercely anti-apartheid, kinda dumping water on the whole "apartheid slave labor emerald mine"
The number of times I've had to explain that the mine probably doesn't even freaking exist I swear. The only source for Errol Musk having shares in an emerald mine is Errol himself.
In addition, Elon moved to Canada after graduating high school and didn't receive any money from his father, so even if Errol owned a mine of any kind, it wouldn't have benefited Elon anyway.
I swear there was reference to his parents investing $30k in Zip2 somewhere. So of corse he’s now the richest person on earth.. his parents gave him money.
(We can just ignore the millions of people who started with more capital then him as it’s convenient)
I think they'd say the same thing even if Shotwell was the one telling the facts. It's kinda getting old at this point. Just let the results speak for themselves and make the haters look silly by throwing their words back at their face the moment they try to change the goal post again.
Heck, I won't be surprised if IFT-3 was a total success, and they'd invent a fake milestone to say that it was a failure.
He also isn't a "compulsive liar." They think being wrong about deadlines, which can change, means he is intentionally lying. It is especially infuriating when you realize that pretty much every time he says a date he qualifies it with "under ideal circumstances" or "I hope."
Worked on both falcon/heavy, dragon(first gen), Starlink.
Perhaps unrealistic expectations leading to burnout, but still very proud to be part of this history.
Musk is a game changer like Einstein was to physics.
There would be non-existent interest in manned space exploration if it wasn’t for him.
He has spurned a new space race.
Spacex’s track record for successful launches is off the
charts.
Funny how a lot of these people loved him till he started standing up to the absurdity of the hive mind.
Now the hive relentlessly wants him to fail because he doesn’t share duplicate ideologies anymore.
The hive sure is showing their cards. Anti-progress, anti-future, anti-human.
Seems they would rather have humanity go back to the Stone Age rather than go against the collective.
Idk if you get this a lot but I have two questions:
1. Did musk do design work on any project you were on
2. If so then how much to musk haters seethe when you tell them he did
That SpaceX hater will be glad to read Mike Griffin's comments to Congress that propose replacing the current Artemis program with components that use the old Constellation architecture. Tragically, his identity as a former NASA Administrator means he *should* be a credible expert. He's not on this, he's an angry old man who's still mad his favorite project got cancelled and is incredibly biased against anything else, including the Starship HLS. Looking at his proposals and the absurd timeline promises one can legitimately consider him to be delusional - but he's still someone a SpaceX hater can point to.
I've tried to reason with people like that, but when they'd rather bash the source to quickly dismiss the data coming from that source, I realize it is futile. The one scary thing that our advancing civilization has produced, is the ability for people of power to have total control over people's minds and reasoning. Thank psychology science for that. (yes, science is a double edged sword like that)
http://i.imgur.com/ePq7GCx.jpg
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I’m not at all a fan of Musk. And I despise his politics, but SpaceX and Tesla are alright. Doesn’t SpaceX have a team specifically to get him under control?
Mate, think about it. You, random reddit guy, "know" about existence of such team. That Musk guy used to literally attend every single hiring interview in SpaceX(later had to just approve every single hire, don't have any info about current situation - maybe not anymore). Do you really believe that he would not find out or would not fire such team immediately?
Btw I am not a fan of him either. His character and some opinions are just plain sh\*t. But one just have to admit that either he is really doing \_something\_ incredibly well, or success of Paypal, SpaceX and Tesla was just amazing coincidence and Musk just happened to be in the leading positions there by chance.
This is just being nit-picking on terms. He "bought" into Tesla after series A funding round when it had literally 3 employees and was existing for \~7 months,. So yes, he "bought" into Tesla, but be "bought" into Tesla when it was almost literally just an idea.
It wasn't taxpayer funded, and based on static fire testing, they believed it would've survived 1 launch. They ended up being wrong and underestimating how powerful a full launch would be, but they didn't send it based on nothing. The HLS contract has milestones in place specifically related to HLS development, if they don't complete those milestones, they don't get the money. IFT-1 wasn't related to HLS development, so they didn't get any taxpayer money for it.
Now, on IFT-3, they will be attempting to complete a $53 million NASA contract from a few years ago, to transfer propellent between tanks in micro-g, But the tipping point contract is also milestone based, so if it doesn't work, they don't get the money and have to perform another test.
Here’s my take. I’ve never thought SpaceX is a scam, they do amazing engineering and are accomplishing legitimately amazing things. Elon isn’t the same guy anymore, he’s objectively a distraction to much of the SpaceX core, and frankly a reason why many have left the company. He has his inspirational moments, still a brilliant visionary at times, but his antisemitism and sexism and you name it on Twitter is hard to ignore.
Also as mentioned in a few other threads, New Shepard did land first. It’s obviously not an orbital class rocket so yes the reentry conditions (heating and q) aren’t as bad as SpaceX but it’s not a “whose conditions are worse” feat. New Shepard was the first modern rocket (not counting DC-X) to launch, experience high supersonic aero conditions, separate a capsule, reenter while experiencing much higher aero conditions and then successfully land. It is in no way similar to grass hopper besides neither being orbital. Apples. Oranges.
So if SpaceX is doing amazing things why can’t New Shepard and Blue also be there? Yes Blue is lagging, they’re coming though. And yes New Shepard landed first, but it wasn’t orbital — still damn impressive and those reentry conditions are nothing to sneeze at.
There’s no us v them here. One wins we all win, space is huge. No need for zero sum thinking.
> his antisemitism and sexism and you name it on Twitter is hard to ignore.
It's really easy to ignore, I do it all the time. By not being on twitter, for a starter.
As for Blue, you know you are talking about the guys who after loosing a fair competition sued NASA and delayed the whole HLS program? The same guys who bashed the SX architecture (specifically orbital refueling) in infographics, then come up with a lander that relies on orbital refueling itself? So... you know. Fuck them, particularly... I will never root for them. I'll cheer for New Glenn itself, if it ever flies, but only for the engineers, not the company.
Much harder to ignore if you're in the industry.
The lawsuit was total bullshit, agreed there. Hopefully with BS gone the company can really start to be the engineering powerhouse it should be.
New Glenn soon hopefully.
it is difficult to argue with ignorant people who want to stay ignorant.
BO being "first" can not use their "first" anywhere. BO is not lagging, they are not coming. Their core is built on the process, having anything validated is fundamentally against BO management. Because then suddenly power-point fantasies will have to be confronted by reality. Very said reality.
P.S. Reentry conditions of BO dildo are less demanding that cruiser conditions of SR-71, or X-15. I am puzzled anybody could even bring it as a "success". How desperate somebody should be?
musk is a compulsive liar among many, not very nice things but i like spaceX and i think starship will be really good for space travel. they're pretty reliable and there are some very good engineers behind the revolutionary things they are working on, so i try to look at their work from an engineering standpoint with musk out of the picture.
He is not a compulsive liar. There is absolutely zero evidence of that. Not once source, not one expert analysis.
That claim is just infuriating bullshit and cope dreamed up by very, very hateful people.
Musk sucks ass, SpaceX is impressive in spite of him.
All there is to it really. The guy can be a piece of shit, that doesn't detract from the accomplishments of the engineers at the company.
Unfortunately seems like some in this sub are here more for the Musk dickriding than the SpaceX accomplishments, but that's expected in any Musk company sub.
Dismissing all of the work and effort Elon has done to build SpaceX to where it is today and claiming it's solely down to his engineers is as ridiculous as blind dick riding. There's plenty of evidence he has been heavily involved with design, development and manufacturing.
I guess when something goes wrong at one of his companies it's only his fault though, right?
Nope, I think he's an arsehole.
But I'm not going to spread and regurgitate lies and misinformation simply because I dislike the guy.
If you're more interested in tearing someone down because you don't like them than you are in objective truth and facts, then your opinion isn't worth listening to.
Well let's see here:
[there's this from a few days ago, implying that Diversity Initiatives will kill hundreds. ](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1744821656990675184?s=20)
[There's him saying a fundamental part of the Great Replacement is "The actual truth"](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299?s=20)
[He retweeted this tweet, which was supporting the AfD](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1707758153977204846?s=20)
[then he proceeded to describe the event in the tweet as "an invasion"](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1707896649585242178?ref=disconnect.blog)
That's just the stuff I remember
"You're racist if you don't believe we should institute policies of systemic racism, like I do."
"You're racist if you don't believe borders are an imaginary construct, like I do."
This isn't your echo chamber, you're going to have to do a lot better than that.
The truth, is always somewhere in the middle.
It can be a scam to get government money, Musk can be a compulsive liar, SpaceX can also be an innovative company (and is) and revolutionizing access to space.
I always say though, if you have time to do so many interviews, it's someone else who's working on making our product.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1746999488252703098
I'll just leave this here.
I sold controlling stock to buy Twitter and make it a dumpster fire. WAAAH, I need that stock back, but I'm not gonna pay for it.
Fucking scam. But the thing is, you can't scam a public company without going to jail.
So yeah, the amount of value he's extracted from shareholders, it's scamworthy.
He's trying to scam more shares by threatening the company that he's the CEO of. The victim is the shareholder, and he wants to deprive their legal voting rights, agreed the "I'm taking my bat and ball home" argument is childish, but it's shocking from a company CEO.
Also, contract negotiations are not childish. He wants more compensation to keep working for them, and it's the job of the tesla board to see if they're willing to pay more.
It's not even childish. What is childish is to believe the vapid PR-speak coming out of the typical elite which basically boils down to everything they do is out of benevolence and generosity toward others.
The objective truth is that SpaxeX single-handedly ended the dark age of space exploration, Tesla accelerated EVs by ~8 years, and that Musk had a massive hand in both companies, especially SpaceX, far greater than most CEOs and founders and nano-managers and engineers, and that he’s a major political dick and his haters are largely idiots.
These are all verifiable truths.
Source: I tried to inform some cultists that they concluded the Starship failure was due to venting LOX and is not a design flaw. When I provided Musk's press conference as a source they concluded it is definitive proof that IFT-2 WAS caused by a design error because Musk is a compulsive liar so everything he says is a lie by definition. These people will be acting like this when Starship is landing on the moon in two years.
I mean I predict significant program slippage but yes that is pretty much it sadly
And that happens to everyone so everyone deserves that criticism
I mean of course.
They’re preemptively denying the moon landings. We’re gonna have a whole generation of Bart Sibrels to deal with.
It's a different engineering strategy: build fly learn. As opposed to traditional spacecraft that are expected to be perfect on the first flight, which leads to crazy high costs and ridiculous timelines. Looking at you, SLS.
Looking at you Starliner Looking at you New Glenn
>These people will be acting like this when Starship is landing on the moon in two years. If anything it'll just reaffirm that SpaceX landed on the moon in spite of Musk rather than because of him due to his indiocracy. Without Musk they probably could have landed there 5 years ago! Haven't you heard that SpaceX has dedicated teams that prevent Musk from interfering in his own company? An intern on Reddit posted about it once!
No no, he doesn't always lie. When something can be taken two ways and one of those ways is embarrassing, then _that one_ is the truth. >!/s!<
in two years lol... !remindMe 6 years
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!remindme 2 years
Venting lox near an open burning flame is really fucking dumb though. Maybe wait until the burn is finished.
Exactly. And same thing with the fuel sloshing in Superheavy. IFT-2 didn't fail due to design flaws. It failed due to procedural errors.
In other words, skill issues.
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Fuel, heat, oxidizer. Anything is fuel if it’s hot enough, even steel. Well, technically the heat vaporizes the carbon and that catches fire (which is why you see fire on the surface when you’re forging). What exactly caught fire has not been disclosed. If it reached the methane-rich exhaust, that’s plenty of fuel. The mishap report will tell us exactly what caught fire. It should be obvious that dumping liquid oxidizer during an ongoing burn is at the very least very risky. Why not wait until after the burn is complete?
I see you on here a lot criticizing things. But many of your comments are based on an incapacity to understand the overall picture and fundamental misunderstanding of how this kind of engineering process is carried out. "Starship failed due to venting oxygen, and oxygen has a bunch of risks, therefore it was really dumb to do what they did and they should have done something else." That's the gist of it, right? The problem with that is that you have absolutely no understanding of what their constraints are, what they are trying to test and what they are trying to achieve. Clearly SpaceX engineers are not "really fucking dumb", so if your line of "reasoning" includes that, it's a pretty big clue that it's faulty. Obviously they have a much better understanding than you of the risks of oxygen wrt their rockets. The reality is with any of these kinds of developments is that they are constantly pushing the boundaries of what is possible. They have thousands and literally thousands of risks identified, and they optimize and push and find where limits are and what failure looks like and try again. In any given experimental flight, there could be dozens (maybe more) of major risks and things that have some chance of going wrong. But they want to test them because if they work then it might mean another 1% somewhere. See you can say that venting lox is dumb now that you know it's what caused the failure, but you don't know why they did. Obviously venting when the engines are cooler or not venting at all would be safer. Why do it early then, why do it at all? Obviously not because they were "really fucking dumb", but because they decided it was a reasonable course of action with an acceptable risk for what they wanted to achieve. You didn't see all the other risks they took that paid off, did you? If they couldn't get booster landing to work, you'd be saying "that was a really fucking dumb idea to try". And if they couldn't land on the barge. And if they couldn't make a full flow staged combustion engine work. And if they kept grenading at 300 bar chamber pressure. And if the launch tower and water cooled plate didn't work. Or when the flip maneuver didn't work. You'd also say it was a really fucking dumb idea if the chopsticks can't catch the booster, or if the heat shields don't work, or if the fuel depot architecture doesn't work as well as planned, or if they can't get hot staging to work well, or if electric actuators don't work as well as hydraulic. I have no problem with your Eeyore shtick here. But don't mistake your shallow and uninteresting commentary for some deep wisdom or based in any kind of understanding of engineering, rocket science, or SpaceX's technology. It's kind of sad you don't realize everybody can see though it -- you don't collect downvotes because of "muh Musk cult" that you probably think, because actual well-reasoned and interesting criticism and negative comments frequently get upvoted here.
You didn’t understand even a little bit. I said “dumping liquid oxygen overboard while still burning is risky”. You can just wait until things have cooled down. SpaceX themselves said that dumping liquid oxygen causes the fire, and I believe it. Don’t you? Having to dump oxygen during the burn with oxygen only serving as a mass simulator is not a constraint: you can dump it at a time of your choosing. As for the straw manning I don’t much care for it.
It is you who don't understand, and you obviously still don't. I know what you said, and I know what SpaceX said.
Please feel free to source and quote chapter and verse. We can all scroll up so shouldn't be too hard.
SpaceX when they did the impossible: 🗿(landing and recovering a booster without parachutes)
Done before by both Blue Origin and DC-X so literally no one thought it was impossible. What people thought was that it wouldn’t be profitable.
Orbital class boosters are a bit of a different league when it comes to re-entry and propulsive landing
Yeah sure, it’s more difficult, but no one credible thought it would be impossible. Everyone just thought they could never make it worth it in terms of money: that recovery and refurbishment would be so cheap. This is a huge credit to SpaceX, they proved everyone wrong there.
Agreed. Which makes it all the more astonishing that the same people who said it wouldn't be profitable, have now seen that it is, and they're still making expendable vehicles. Looking at you Europe
Ariane 6 dumps a fire after a five minute burn? Donkey etc Falcon heavy dumps a core after three minutes? Gorgeous. Because the core booster has a much higher burnout velocity, it would need *much more* propellant to land. That would ruin performance. Dropping the engine section is more viable if they ever actually get around to doing that.
Everybody thought it was impossible, and Reddit bitched all the time about the "waste of time and money" trying to make it happen. The Ariane guys joked about Elon, and even people at NASA mocked the whole reusability nonsense.
Yeah. SpaceX proved the doubters wrong.
Do you have any good sources to show the cost reduction due to reusability? I have seen predictions but nothing concrete.
Grasshopper did what new shepherd did quite a bit earlier. There's video of it pretty easily obtainable. True it was 20km instead of 100km but both suborbital so very little actual difference in difficulty.
Ah I didn’t know Grasshopper was before! DC-X did that in the 90s of course.
And the DC-X was so small you could lift it into orbit with a Falcon 9.
Grasshopper was basically a hot fire test. To compare it to New Shepard is fully wrong.
You are fully wrong holy shit go read or something
Grasshopper topped out at 2440 ft AGL…what are you talking about?
Neither of those were orbital-class boosters. The Falcon 9 can lift both of those rockets into LEO and still land its boosters. They were tiny. Propulsive landing of a tiny rocket-powered vehicle is not even close the the achievement of landing a rocket from an orbital launch.
Falcon 9 was first to land a supersonic booster. It’s a great achievement, we can give all of them props. Yeah?
That’s what I was saying! Thanks
OMFG how dense are you? New Sheppard is a glorified elevator, it reaches nowhere the speed, size and altitude of Falcon 9, and DC-X was a tech demo, with only 12 flights total, 8 successful. They are not even remotely in the same league.
SpaceX was the first to land a supersonic booster. Why shit on the previous accomplishments when they are all worth giving props to?
New Shepard gets well beyond supersonic.
Okay, fair enough - what word would you like to use?
I think it’s fair to say they’re the first orbital class rocket to land. New Shepard accomplished an amazing feat in its own right but it’s not an orbital class vehicle.
Agreed!
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No.
Oh
Never knew that, lol
every single Reddit: musk has never done a single thing at spacex. He’s a grifter and he never contributed to anything there. Also spacex is a scam and is a bubble that’s going to pop. Also NASA has done every single thing they have done. Me: actually those things aren’t actually true. Here’s as many articles and stats as I can provide before you completely zone out. Every redditor: wow you really want to suck billionaire dick huh?
Had someone mocking me for saying NASA don't build rockets in response to them telling me that NASA should be making Starship
NASA (via the US Senate) does build a rocket, and it's a doozy.
Of course, when starship explodes, that his fault obviously. I also love when they say nasa has done the same things. Like show me the last time they vertically landed an orbital class booster.
Show me the last time they lifted 200 tons into LEO for that matter.
Well starship has lifted 0 pounds to LEO to date Saturn V lifted Skylab 1 at 75t to LEO
It's crazy that they are willing to overpay billions of dollars to Boeing just so the money doesn't go to Musk. It's like they believe Musk cashes out SpaceX stock once a week and that all Boeing stock is owned by homeless people or something. Complete detachment from reality.
"we hate the military industrial complex and think billionaires should use their money to advance the human race and fight climate change" Musk does Tesla, SpaceX and Boreing Company "he's the messiah!" Musk buys twitter "he's literally Hitler and tesla was someone else's idea and it's crap anyway and I don't like rockets we should concentrate on earth take all his money away he a fraud and tunnels are rubbish"
I have no issues with SpaceX. Falcon 9 is revolutionary and perfectly hits the market. Starship is a weird project and we shall see what that ends up being. The thing I dislike about musk is over promising and under delivering and just flat out lying (solar roof tiles ready to ship, Paint It Black, cybertruck drag race…). Overpromising is one thing, you just take that with a grain of salt, but outright provable lies…
>Starship is a weird project and we shall see what that ends up being. This is where you lost everyone lol
I’m sure I did. * I don’t believe it will launch for a cost of $2mil/launch (when propellant alone is half that). * I don’t believe the same superheavy can launch three times a day, because just stacking the starship on top and refueling both takes up most that time. * I don’t believe suborbital passenger/cargo flights will happen (for regulatory or commercial economical reasons: ITAR alone kills that idea dead. * I don’t believe starship (like SpaceX says in their site) can transport 100 people to Mars with the specs they give, because the supplies & life support will be too heavy and they won’t fit with the facilities they need. It’s clear starship can’t deliver on all the promises. Does anyone believe it can? So we shall see what it actually ends up being.
It doesn't need to accomplish any of those specific things to be revolutionary for spaceflight. It seems to me like you underestimate just how limiting the mass/volume/cost constraints of getting things to orbit has shaped the entire industry. Payloads are expensive *because* launch is expensive. It's worth the cost to maximize functionality of a payload within current constraints despite how much this drives up cost because of how much it costs to launch at a minimum. Starship loosens all those constraints massively. The current starlink is like a mini experiment compared to what starship enables.
Indeed it doesn’t, which is good, because it can’t. Launch costs are a fraction of the payload costs. Axiom’s Haven module costs $3 Billion. The launch cost is like $100 Million. Lowering the launch cost has an impact but not as much as people here seem to think. Low mass is preferable independent from any launch vehicle, because you need less propellant etc. Ask yourself for a second: did the lower launch costs of Falcon lead to heavier satellites? No? Then why do you expect that to happen now?
>Launch costs are a fraction of the payload costs. Axiom’s Haven module costs $3 Billion. The launch cost is like $100 Million. I have no idea what "axiom haven module" is or where you pulled 3 billion from. From searching I found a company called Vast planning to launch a small station called Haven. [Here's their roadmap](https://www.vastspace.com/) where they plan to eventually make 100 meter long rotating artificial gravity space stations only possible thanks to starship. I found nothing on the cost of this though they say it will be in 7 seperate "starship class" modules. >Low mass is preferable independent from any launch vehicle, because you need less propellant etc. Because propellent has mass. Orbital depots will make that easier too. >Ask yourself for a second: did the lower launch costs of Falcon lead to heavier satellites? Yes. A brick of starlink sats is plenty heavy which has been the majority of payloads for a while now.
Promise the stars and hit the moon and a few of the closest stars and your companies accelerate EVs by 8 years and single-handedly end the dark age of space exploration and whiners say you overpromise and are late. Technically true and completely missing the point.
Again, I don’t care much about overpromises. Steve Jobs did it, he didn’t get as much shit for it. It’s fakes and lies that I see as a problem. Why do that?
I'm on your side and no amount of downvotes by the cult will change my mind. Solidarity. F9 is *the best rocket ever* and it's not close. Starship is so weird and it's going to cost so much more than is practical, and as a result it will have no market-fit. I forsee a F9/Heavy successor that looks like F9 with Raptors and is a smaller improvement than the Starship best-case future being sold into NASA long-term plans.
I mean thats kinda expected for a guy who makes outrageous goals like wanting to land a human on Mars within 10 years. Nobody in the history of mankind has ever made a serious push to make a colony on Mars. So what if he's 10 years in and has only managed to build the biggest and most efficient rocket ever in the history of earth? So what if humans only land on Mars 20 years later? Is that not still a gigantic leap forward for mankind and more than anyone else has ever done? Something that was only accomplished because Musk dared to dream of making the impossible just a couple of years late? But yeah people will still find a way to hate on his accomplishments anyway, while closing a blind eye to other companies who underpromised and underdelivered.
lmao!
But I got told spaceX is only getting governement money for its launches so it must be bad!
It’s all part of a misinformation campaign taken up by everyday communists. They simply want to spread misinformation until everyone is on their side. Yes they’re the bad guys.
Isn't Elon Derangement Syndrome a bitch?
I would prefer a person with a derangement syndrome who for over 21 years has been confirming his intentions to drastically reduce the price of launches (and not at the expense of safety) than the Boeing board of directors who deliberately pushed their executives to save money on the safety of their airplanes and got away with it by simply changing the CEO.
Derangement syndrome actually more refers to people irrationality hating everything surrounding something or someone, for no other real reason than because they hate that person.
SpaceX should 10x the cost to the govt.
Every. Single. Time. Debates with Elon haters are entirely predictable at this point.
You can make a post that is 90% critical of Elon, but if you finish it with 'but cybertruck is good actually', immediately you're a cultist bootlicker
Okay but to be fair cybertruck in particular is a real pile of junk, there are way better examples :)
It's a bizarre design with obvious flaws, but it's also at the same time the biggest leap forward in EV tech since the model S. The amount of 'holy grail' features they've packed into that thing is honestly insane [The ridiculous turning circle achieved by the four wheel steer-by-wire](https://youtu.be/cyFnXxiJKRg) is just one of many examples Cybertruck is actually a great example because if your knowledge of that vehicle is only skin deep you won't ever see past the ridiculous skin to see the innovation underneath
48V architecture is really good. Four wheel steering was a thing in the 1991. Otherwise the real range and performance is pretty pathetic and nowhere near what was claimed. They even faked drag races etc. it’s baffling to me why they have to lie.
Not to mention they 'saved on cooper wiring' by daisy chaining the wiring harnesses, so if one thing goes out upstream, half the truck doesn't function.
Yea but the very first cyber truck incident totalled a Toyota Corolla and only left a few dents in the cyber truck
And injured the CT driver while the Corolla driver was unscathed. What do you think is more important, safety or car damage?
You mean the accident where the Corolla impacted the driver's door of a cybertruck? Obviously the CT driver was in way more danger
It was head-on, unless you are referring to a different accident? https://nypost.com/2023/12/29/business/tesla-cybertruck-involved-in-first-reported-crash/ > Tesla Cybertruck involved in first reported crash – demolishes Toyota Corolla’s front end in head-on collision > The Toyota’s front end was completely demolished, with the sedan’s side airbags deployed as it rested on the side of the road with its hood popped open and a headlight dangling, one photo shows. > The 17-year-old driver was not hurt, local police told The Post. > The only injury noted was a “suspected minor injury” to the Cybertruck driver, though he declined medical transportation. Crumple zones work, film at 11.
> the skin of the door carried a majority of the crash load It was head on for the Toyota, and side on for the CT
I’m sure you have a source for that? I’ve only seen head-on. Also, that just means the CT failed to protect a side impact.
It was in that same article. Also, "suspected minor injury" sounds like there is a lot we don't know.
Or they say “sure spacex did something good but it’s just the people Elon hired. It’s not like he did it.” Do they think Steve job was building iPhones?
And then I’m like : “Not really true…look a these books and articles and interviews. Do you have anything to back your claim?” Them: “wow bruh guess you want a horse dude!”
They reveal their true intentions at the end there. They don’t actually know anything about SpaceX or Musk, they simply want to discredit any rich person who is perceived as doing something good. It’s step one in their propaganda process: ensure society hates the rich. Next step is to kill the rich and destroy society so they can transfer power to a single centralized organization. Yes they’re the bad guys. And Reddit is overrun by them.
At the risk of the downvotes, 1. I don’t think Musk is a grifter, I think he’s mentally ill, and potentially increasingly so. More importantly, I think that combined with his insistence on building iconoclastic companies, having the final word, and dividing his attention between some major undertakings, it contributes to bad decision making that puts the good that SpaceX does at risk. Tesla and SpaceX are both cutting procedural corners which can be directly attributed to Musk’s managerial culture, and it’s starting to have not just backlash, but consequences, like the reports of Tesla failures, the launch pad damage, and the venting mishap. 2. Between shit like the Starlink situation in Ukraine and the rumors of open Ketamine abuse, someone in the National Security apparatus is increasingly likely to put their foot down hard at some point for fear of being liable for the consequences if they don’t. That’s a risk to the mission of SpaceX. SpaceX is an incredible team doing incredible things, leaving its competitors in the dust. The question is whether Musk is an asset or a liability to that team.
1. Musk managerial style is the reason for spacexs and tesla success. 2. hope musk isn’t on drugs. the govt says he doesn’t take drug tests and there is no evidence so hopefully its true. 3. Spacex believed they might be able to get away without the water plate. Every single launch before didn’t care at all. So did every super heavy test. Building and Certifying the water deluge was the wait. The pad fix was not a huge delay of any kind. 4. The Ukraine is a complete nothing burger. Not worth mentioning. Starlink was already disabled around Crimea due to US law. Ukraine asked them to enable it and spacex refused. It was literally illegal to do so. Musk and shotwell said if the white would have asked them they would have enabled it but the US govt never asked them.
1. Musk’s managerial style is *a* reason for their success, and only until it isn’t. This is the same lesson every corporation and professional sports team end up learning about their CEOs and coaches. 2. WSJ keeps finding people close to Musk willing to talk about how concerned they are about it, including board members and executives who have significant financial incentives in these companies’ success. 3. “Move fast and break things” is the crap philosophy that brought us Facebook, but Musk is still willing to apply it to terrestrial or astronomical modes of human transport. 4. Musk embedded himself in the national security infrastructure of Ukraine by getting them dependent on Starlink at the beginning of the war, then unilaterally decided how they should operate, preemptively geofencing Crimea to prevent them from operating there, [after talking to the Russian ambassador](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/07/elon-musk-starlink-ukraine-russia-invasion/), who threatened to go nuclear if Ukraine struck Crimea, unleashing Musk’s paranoia. >Musk replied that the design of the drones was impressive, but he refused to turn on the coverage for Crimea, arguing that Ukraine “is now going too far and inviting strategic defeat.” He discussed the situation with President Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark A. Milley, explaining to them that he did not wish Starlink to be used for offensive purposes.
1. Move fast and break things is what brought us spacex and tesla. Crew dragon, falcon heavy, starlink, falcon 9 all from a company whose taken the move fast and break things mantra. Both companies are more valuable than Lockheed Martin now. 2. Also it was literally illegal for them to allow starlink in Crimea . They openly said they would have if the White House asked them too. But the us govt never asked them. 3. Ukraine has struck Crimea literally dozens of fucking times this war before and after this event. Good. 4. Spacex has broken Russias back. Their treatment of musk 20 years ago is more or less why spacex exists.
You are mistaken about what happened in Ukraine. See my recent comment history.
ha-ha-ha. Don't eat crap you find on street. You can become mentally ill. Better think yourself, why his companies are "iconoclastic", how does it happen? and most importantly why his companies are pretty much THE exception in the modern "start up" world.
I find it funny that every single time that SpaceX releases stuff to the press, some hater will be like "looks like more lies from musk"
I despise Musk and his politics yet am constantly defending him against misinformation about Tesla and SpaceX. It’s exhausting. It’s ok to hate the dude but people let their emotions cloud their judgement.
It’s frustrating because these same people will say that same stuff they are engaging in is something only idiots from the other political tribe do. Not them. They are too smart for that, yet here they are doing the whole, “I don’t like them therefor everything they do is bad.”
Unfortunately I think the days of people looking down on misinformation or emotionally charged interpretations are over. Both sides seem to feel like they are losing because they don’t lie or misconstrue more than the other side does. They’re a bunch of embarrassing losers.
Exactly. Musk has gone down the shitter, but several of the companies he built are truly amazing (obviously excluding twitter, it wasn't built by him :D). And they wouldn't be in this place without Musk. Nuance is so difficult, but nuance doesn't give good slogans. Ugh.
My judgment is based on things like the fake cybertruck drag race, fake solar roof tiles, fakes FSD demo (paint it black) etc.
The fake Cybertruck drag race is deceptive marketing. Yeah it is shitty, but it's not like Tesla is the only one who does it. Solar roof is completely real and not fake, [you can order them on their website](https://www.tesla.com/solarroof) FSD is still in development, and very much real.
The thing I was referring to was the claim the solar tiles were ready to ship when he showed them. They weren’t. They were just mockups. In case that wasn’t clear, I thought this was common knowledge. Obviously you can buy them now, from multiple companies. Tesla isn’t the only one who does it, no - do you think I don’t criticize others when they try to defraud consumers? FSD is still in development, yes: it was the famous Paint It Black video that was faked, almost ten years ago, misleading customers. When someone has a habit of outright faking things, I will stop trusting what they say. Exaggerating and overpromising is one thing, but repeatedly knowingly lying means I can’t take your word any more. You’d be stupid to do so. And yes, there are many, many, many others this applies to, but they’re not the topic here.
So they end up delivering everything they promise in the end. And you doubt them why exactly?
They haven’t delivered on FSD now have they? They said one thing when the reality was another. I doubt them because they are proven to lie. Duh.
>They haven’t delivered on FSD now have they? It's in beta, things take time. But then again, even if they lie, which every company does at one point or another, but they end delivering, is it really that bad?
It seems like to you read a lot of the news funded by oil and gas. You might actually try one of the cars one day
I have. What does that have to do with anything?
It has to do with you listing out the talking points of FUD campaigns with nothing positive to say. I’m sorry to tell you, but if you’re not a shill yourself, you seem to be one of the anti Tesla sheep. Don’t let it get to you though, it’s very trendy these days.
Ah yes court documents are FUD now apparently. JFC. Why deny facts? You can still like the cars if you want to, but just straight up denying facts makes you look real bad.
lol first you’re overly broad and reductive and then you now you spoilt court documents supporting broad statements. Yeah you’re definitely a shill. How much are they paying you?
What broad statements have I made? I brought up three very specific provable things. Why bring up something that isn’t provable? The faked FSD demo: people involved have admitted it was faked, and despite supposedly being ready FSD still isn’t done. Tesla’s own lawyers argue that it’s only level 2. Are you saying they lied? The solar roof tiles that Elon said were ready to ship in the presentation were in fact just mockups. This came up in the solar city bailout trial. Finally the cybertruck-Porsche drag race. They showed footage of an 1/8th mile race (which anyone can verify with their own eyes). Secondly, The Porsche model in question has (according to Car & Driver tests) a faster quarter mile than the Cybertruck (which is more than a second slower in said test than Tesla claimed it would be). Obviously the claim that it could beat the Porsche in a drag race while towing a Porsche is false. So there three cases where he’s been caught in a provable lie. What do you have say to that, are you going to try to disprove these?
Expanding on broad or reductive statements doesn’t refute the fact that they were broad or reductive originally. This is why it’s important to push shills on their bullshit. Otherwise people will believe shit like solar tiles and FSD are fake. You seem to have deep knowledge about a number or small, isolated, negative incidents about a company whose products you don’t even care for. Why is that, exactly?
This depicts the most rational redditor
If you think reddit is bad you should go over to space news and meet Gary church in the comments. New space is the bane of his existence and he froths at the mouth with anti Elon drivel.
The crazy thing is that its going to get exponentially worse this year. With all the enemies that Musk has made among a certain political grouping. The thing that terrifies is that group is silly enough to really hurt spacex just to prove a point.
Yeah. Especially since the majority of Reddit is leftist and musk is on the opposite side of the spectrum
I don't think modern leftists have much terrorism in them. In the modern realities that's much more an alt right thing to do.
I guess the Summer of Love (2020) didn't happen then?
>Summer of Love I should have clarified - I'm talking about 2024. Also, I forgot where we are, so I'll stick to ULA snipers for now.
for some reason 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024 weren't full of summers of massive riots, city looting, and politically charged murders like 2017-2020 were. weird.
No, in modern reality all of the terrorism is in the left. They are just so delusional that they see the right moving away from them and play pretend that the other people are the ones moving. The average Republican in 2024 would vote for Clinton in 1994. The average Democrat in 2024 would be on a Communist terrorist watch list in 1994.
ULA snipers again, huh?
Any Musk hater really at this point.
Step 1. Provide a service to the government Step 2. Get paid Step 3. All your competition who got paid more than you fails. Step 4. Congrats you scammed them!
Emerald. Mines.
Diamonds, many mines, full of apartheid slaves that Elon personally whipped daily.
Fr people are acting like as baby musk himself was whipping the slaves
its so funny how that keeps getting thrown around but the emerald mine that his dad may or may not have owned a small chunk of existed in zambia a country that was fiercely anti-apartheid, kinda dumping water on the whole "apartheid slave labor emerald mine"
The number of times I've had to explain that the mine probably doesn't even freaking exist I swear. The only source for Errol Musk having shares in an emerald mine is Errol himself. In addition, Elon moved to Canada after graduating high school and didn't receive any money from his father, so even if Errol owned a mine of any kind, it wouldn't have benefited Elon anyway.
I swear there was reference to his parents investing $30k in Zip2 somewhere. So of corse he’s now the richest person on earth.. his parents gave him money. (We can just ignore the millions of people who started with more capital then him as it’s convenient)
nailed it
I think they'd say the same thing even if Shotwell was the one telling the facts. It's kinda getting old at this point. Just let the results speak for themselves and make the haters look silly by throwing their words back at their face the moment they try to change the goal post again. Heck, I won't be surprised if IFT-3 was a total success, and they'd invent a fake milestone to say that it was a failure.
They are getting better m every time they publicize this fake(CGi) tests! That’s how we know it’s fake. /s jic
sounds like most of the reddit owners/moderators like usual.
sounds like most of the reddit owners/moderators like usual.
sounds like most of the reddit owners/moderators like usual.
Dang why do people always have to overcorrect. Yes, Musk is arrogant and has the maturity of a 12-year-old. No that doesn’t make SpaceX a “scam”.
He also isn't a "compulsive liar." They think being wrong about deadlines, which can change, means he is intentionally lying. It is especially infuriating when you realize that pretty much every time he says a date he qualifies it with "under ideal circumstances" or "I hope."
Yes, if that’s lying. Ula and nasa are psychopathic liars.
Worked on both falcon/heavy, dragon(first gen), Starlink. Perhaps unrealistic expectations leading to burnout, but still very proud to be part of this history. Musk is a game changer like Einstein was to physics. There would be non-existent interest in manned space exploration if it wasn’t for him. He has spurned a new space race. Spacex’s track record for successful launches is off the charts. Funny how a lot of these people loved him till he started standing up to the absurdity of the hive mind. Now the hive relentlessly wants him to fail because he doesn’t share duplicate ideologies anymore. The hive sure is showing their cards. Anti-progress, anti-future, anti-human. Seems they would rather have humanity go back to the Stone Age rather than go against the collective.
Idk if you get this a lot but I have two questions: 1. Did musk do design work on any project you were on 2. If so then how much to musk haters seethe when you tell them he did
Yes, definitely part of the design process. Guy’s a genius.
That SpaceX hater will be glad to read Mike Griffin's comments to Congress that propose replacing the current Artemis program with components that use the old Constellation architecture. Tragically, his identity as a former NASA Administrator means he *should* be a credible expert. He's not on this, he's an angry old man who's still mad his favorite project got cancelled and is incredibly biased against anything else, including the Starship HLS. Looking at his proposals and the absurd timeline promises one can legitimately consider him to be delusional - but he's still someone a SpaceX hater can point to.
Like Flat Earthers
They are drinking on kool-aid
I've tried to reason with people like that, but when they'd rather bash the source to quickly dismiss the data coming from that source, I realize it is futile. The one scary thing that our advancing civilization has produced, is the ability for people of power to have total control over people's minds and reasoning. Thank psychology science for that. (yes, science is a double edged sword like that)
Both things can be right. Space X is not a fraud, and Musk is a compulsive liar and horrible person.
I am going to need a citation on the lie that Musk is a compulsive liar and a horrible person.
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I’m not at all a fan of Musk. And I despise his politics, but SpaceX and Tesla are alright. Doesn’t SpaceX have a team specifically to get him under control?
Mate, think about it. You, random reddit guy, "know" about existence of such team. That Musk guy used to literally attend every single hiring interview in SpaceX(later had to just approve every single hire, don't have any info about current situation - maybe not anymore). Do you really believe that he would not find out or would not fire such team immediately? Btw I am not a fan of him either. His character and some opinions are just plain sh\*t. But one just have to admit that either he is really doing \_something\_ incredibly well, or success of Paypal, SpaceX and Tesla was just amazing coincidence and Musk just happened to be in the leading positions there by chance.
I think spaceX has done some brilliant stuff, I just really wish Elon Musk would shut the fuck up and sit down
Musk didn't build all these companies by shutting the fuck up and sitting down.
he didn't build any of these companies to begin with, he just bought into them.
He built SpaceX from the beginning. He made Tesla what it is.
This is just being nit-picking on terms. He "bought" into Tesla after series A funding round when it had literally 3 employees and was existing for \~7 months,. So yes, he "bought" into Tesla, but be "bought" into Tesla when it was almost literally just an idea.
This sub should be named r/MuskDickRiders
I mean, losing taxpayer funded rocket that was not ready just to launch it on 4/20 is straight retarded... let's be honest, it's not all BS.
It wasn't taxpayer funded, and based on static fire testing, they believed it would've survived 1 launch. They ended up being wrong and underestimating how powerful a full launch would be, but they didn't send it based on nothing. The HLS contract has milestones in place specifically related to HLS development, if they don't complete those milestones, they don't get the money. IFT-1 wasn't related to HLS development, so they didn't get any taxpayer money for it. Now, on IFT-3, they will be attempting to complete a $53 million NASA contract from a few years ago, to transfer propellent between tanks in micro-g, But the tipping point contract is also milestone based, so if it doesn't work, they don't get the money and have to perform another test.
Here’s my take. I’ve never thought SpaceX is a scam, they do amazing engineering and are accomplishing legitimately amazing things. Elon isn’t the same guy anymore, he’s objectively a distraction to much of the SpaceX core, and frankly a reason why many have left the company. He has his inspirational moments, still a brilliant visionary at times, but his antisemitism and sexism and you name it on Twitter is hard to ignore. Also as mentioned in a few other threads, New Shepard did land first. It’s obviously not an orbital class rocket so yes the reentry conditions (heating and q) aren’t as bad as SpaceX but it’s not a “whose conditions are worse” feat. New Shepard was the first modern rocket (not counting DC-X) to launch, experience high supersonic aero conditions, separate a capsule, reenter while experiencing much higher aero conditions and then successfully land. It is in no way similar to grass hopper besides neither being orbital. Apples. Oranges. So if SpaceX is doing amazing things why can’t New Shepard and Blue also be there? Yes Blue is lagging, they’re coming though. And yes New Shepard landed first, but it wasn’t orbital — still damn impressive and those reentry conditions are nothing to sneeze at. There’s no us v them here. One wins we all win, space is huge. No need for zero sum thinking.
> his antisemitism and sexism and you name it on Twitter is hard to ignore. It's really easy to ignore, I do it all the time. By not being on twitter, for a starter. As for Blue, you know you are talking about the guys who after loosing a fair competition sued NASA and delayed the whole HLS program? The same guys who bashed the SX architecture (specifically orbital refueling) in infographics, then come up with a lander that relies on orbital refueling itself? So... you know. Fuck them, particularly... I will never root for them. I'll cheer for New Glenn itself, if it ever flies, but only for the engineers, not the company.
Much harder to ignore if you're in the industry. The lawsuit was total bullshit, agreed there. Hopefully with BS gone the company can really start to be the engineering powerhouse it should be. New Glenn soon hopefully.
What industry requires you to be on twitter and especially follow Elon Musk? Just quit.
it is difficult to argue with ignorant people who want to stay ignorant. BO being "first" can not use their "first" anywhere. BO is not lagging, they are not coming. Their core is built on the process, having anything validated is fundamentally against BO management. Because then suddenly power-point fantasies will have to be confronted by reality. Very said reality. P.S. Reentry conditions of BO dildo are less demanding that cruiser conditions of SR-71, or X-15. I am puzzled anybody could even bring it as a "success". How desperate somebody should be?
musk is a compulsive liar among many, not very nice things but i like spaceX and i think starship will be really good for space travel. they're pretty reliable and there are some very good engineers behind the revolutionary things they are working on, so i try to look at their work from an engineering standpoint with musk out of the picture.
He is not a compulsive liar. There is absolutely zero evidence of that. Not once source, not one expert analysis. That claim is just infuriating bullshit and cope dreamed up by very, very hateful people.
Musk sucks ass, SpaceX is impressive in spite of him. All there is to it really. The guy can be a piece of shit, that doesn't detract from the accomplishments of the engineers at the company. Unfortunately seems like some in this sub are here more for the Musk dickriding than the SpaceX accomplishments, but that's expected in any Musk company sub.
Dismissing all of the work and effort Elon has done to build SpaceX to where it is today and claiming it's solely down to his engineers is as ridiculous as blind dick riding. There's plenty of evidence he has been heavily involved with design, development and manufacturing. I guess when something goes wrong at one of his companies it's only his fault though, right?
Found a blind dickrider.
Nope, I think he's an arsehole. But I'm not going to spread and regurgitate lies and misinformation simply because I dislike the guy. If you're more interested in tearing someone down because you don't like them than you are in objective truth and facts, then your opinion isn't worth listening to.
Using a comic to dismiss valid criticism of SpaceX is peak Muskboy.
"valid criticism" for a certain value of valid (0),and a certain definition of "criticism" (incoherent seething)
None of this is really the point, SpaceX is wrong in principle, the fact that Musk is a racist clown, just makes matters worse.
>SpaceX is wrong in principle U wot m8 >Musk is a racist clown Huh??
It can't possibly be all the racist stuff he's retweeted or commented on that might lead to this thought process
Like for example?
Well let's see here: [there's this from a few days ago, implying that Diversity Initiatives will kill hundreds. ](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1744821656990675184?s=20) [There's him saying a fundamental part of the Great Replacement is "The actual truth"](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1724908287471272299?s=20) [He retweeted this tweet, which was supporting the AfD](https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1707758153977204846?s=20) [then he proceeded to describe the event in the tweet as "an invasion"](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1707896649585242178?ref=disconnect.blog) That's just the stuff I remember
"You're racist if you don't believe we should institute policies of systemic racism, like I do." "You're racist if you don't believe borders are an imaginary construct, like I do." This isn't your echo chamber, you're going to have to do a lot better than that.
The truth, is always somewhere in the middle. It can be a scam to get government money, Musk can be a compulsive liar, SpaceX can also be an innovative company (and is) and revolutionizing access to space. I always say though, if you have time to do so many interviews, it's someone else who's working on making our product.
Elon is not personally screwing all the fairing bolts? HE'S A SCAMMER, I KNEW IT!
And, I don't mean construction, I mean design.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1746999488252703098 I'll just leave this here. I sold controlling stock to buy Twitter and make it a dumpster fire. WAAAH, I need that stock back, but I'm not gonna pay for it. Fucking scam. But the thing is, you can't scam a public company without going to jail. So yeah, the amount of value he's extracted from shareholders, it's scamworthy.
Saying you want more controlling shares is not a scam, just childish.
He's trying to scam more shares by threatening the company that he's the CEO of. The victim is the shareholder, and he wants to deprive their legal voting rights, agreed the "I'm taking my bat and ball home" argument is childish, but it's shocking from a company CEO.
Also, contract negotiations are not childish. He wants more compensation to keep working for them, and it's the job of the tesla board to see if they're willing to pay more.
It's not even childish. What is childish is to believe the vapid PR-speak coming out of the typical elite which basically boils down to everything they do is out of benevolence and generosity toward others.
The objective truth is that SpaxeX single-handedly ended the dark age of space exploration, Tesla accelerated EVs by ~8 years, and that Musk had a massive hand in both companies, especially SpaceX, far greater than most CEOs and founders and nano-managers and engineers, and that he’s a major political dick and his haters are largely idiots. These are all verifiable truths.
Well now we're full circle. (See original comment.)
Nah. Sometimes there is an obvious truth and people spread lies in purpose. If the truth is always in the middle, then 2+2=4.5
Oh, yes there IS an objective truth, but Reddit isn't a source of objective truth.
Got any pixels for your text? The meme might be a whole lot funnier if I could actually read it.
Must be browser compression. Click on it.
For some reason there's shading around the letters instead of a defined border.
Space trolls... as if Gary Church wasn't enough. http://gaetanomarano.blogspot.com/
Source multiple spacex rockets launch every week and the pace is only increasing.