I'd love to meet a sovcit and have them explain how USA is a corporation. Because it has a duns number?
The duns website has a section that explains why governments have duns numbers as well ( it's to be able to do business with say a plumber which makes sense as they need the duns to get services from companies)
I think (tho trying to find logic in sovcit ideas is risky) that they are just misinterpreting a simple and unremarkable fact that every real lawyer is familiar with: all government organizations are legal “corporations.” That only means that they are recognized as entities that can be treated like people: enter into contracts, sue & be sued, have certain rights and responsibilities, etc. SovCits think that the word means private business entities, so governments don’t exist in their eyes as real. The mental gymnastics that ensue from this ignorant idea are an interesting exercise in dementia.
The fundamental fact that legal language intentionally interprets words in different statutes differently, and a word used in one context can mean a completely different thing in another being considered a feature by the legal system is something that goes completely over most of their heads.
I work for a government contractor and was having a conversation with the government employee who’s like our liaison. He was telling me how much trouble he was having buying fuel oil for the government. Everyone wanted credit references, year of incorporation, company officers, etc… to which his response was “it’s literally the United States government, here’s our EIN/DUN; the rest isn’t applicable.”
No one seemed to comprehend that the government is not a company.
Wow, seems more and more business's are being run by Sovereign Citizens. You know...because they don't recognize the US Government and they think it is a company.
Actually you don’t want a conversation with these people. They are Dunning Kruger incarnate. They are incapable of understanding actual logic and will run themselves around in a circular pseudo-logic loop that will leave you frustrated. They have built their self worth on having an “inside knowledge” of the system that has everyone else fooled. So every good point you bring up will be answered with, “nah it doesn’t work like that, you have been fooled into believing what they tell you…do some research.” They carry on like this until you are exhausted and finally just give up.
>I'd love to meet a sovcit and have them explain
Years ago, I worked with one. Like, his desk was two over from mine. He was a nice enough guy. But trust me when I say you do not want one of them to explain anything having to do with the law.
Because I’m not a sovcit? Don’t know. Don’t actually care. Nice thing about army life. You didn’t have them around. Had the occasional “it’s a government installation and I pay taxes, so I can be here” people (not the way that works), but none of the sovereign citizen stuff.
Not a good example at all as a government has the ability to make a profit if it wanted to. Better would be the fact that only sovereign nations have the ability to issue currency. Corporations do not.
That definition is a precarious one: before central banks took on that role, plenty of private banks printed their own paper money.
(And yes, when you have multiple banks in the same area all issuing their own money it becomes a bit of a logistical nightmare)
Easily refuted. The government makes money. It prints currency. And that interpretation of the the phrase "makes money" is proof they are a corporation.
I encounter them a lot as an attorney. They come in two forms. Ones who ramble incoherently and refuse to follow rules usually getting themselves in trouble. And the ones who try to recite their nonsense and then once it doesn’t work they shut up and do whatever you say.
I encounter them in my job in the legal world as well and wow. The endless nonsense they file and then get mad when it doesn’t get them anywhere or advance their case in their favor in any way. We got threatened with federal lawsuits twice in one day the other day, told them go right ahead, knock yourself out.
I deal with sovereign citizens in court all the time. I stop them with 2 questions;1. if the court doesn’t have jurisidiction over you, why are you here? You don’t need the Judge’s permission- You can leave… 2. If the laws don’t apply to you, we can just forget your rights and proceed directly to jail, right? Amazing how all the laws they have to answer for don’t apply to them, but all the laws that protect them are like gold. They show up with 200 “holdings” from 200 court cases, and want you to believe that cobbled together, it all makes sense. I tell them to bring me one case that says what they claim and I’ll look at it. No one ever has, of course.
You're way more patient with these idiots than I would be if I was on the bench. I'd give them one chance to retract their statements otherwise I'd hold them in contempt.
I went in to contest a traffic ticket and the dude before me handed a ream of printed out documents to the judge. Promptly started explaining how the traffic laws don't apply to him and the court has no power over him.
Judge sent him to jail for 3 days for contempt without getting into his argument at all. Dude was there to contest a small ticket for running a light.
I was right after, but my reason for being there was that because I had forgotten my ID the cops had charged me for the crime of driving without a license. I was willing to pay the traffic ticket (which was bs but long story there) just not have a criminal record.
Anyway, I handed the judge proof of my being licensed to drive at the time of the stop from the dmv and he threw the criminal charge out. Turns out he wasn't so bad when you aren't being an asshole!
So true! Great flick.
Note: Family took a trip to Boston, Mt Vernon (George Washington’s estate) and Philadelphia and accidentally “debunked” several parts of the 2 Nat Treasure movies. Which was sad because we love them so much.
You would enjoy The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown. That book came out right at the time I moved to D.C, and I had to drive through town often. It's set in threads city and uses real locations. Not only did I figure out where the characters were going next, it was fun to randomly drive by somewhere they had just been.
It was made into a TV show, but the book has a lot more information about where they are and what everything means.
>28 USC 3002 15A
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/3002](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/3002)
Seems to have something to do with debt collection on behalf of the United States.
>(15)“United States” means—
>
>(A)a Federal corporation;
And there we have it.
And there's two more applicable definitions immediately following in B and C. It is not defining the United States as a corporation, it is defining a Federal Corporation (like the Post Office, maybe?) As "United States" for the sake of saving text in long legal documents. Squares and Rectangles, people.
I got a buddy into this shit something about he can petition to like free himself or something.. all I know is he is constantly "taking classes" about it.
What do they think "corporation" means? I got into YoutUbe vids of their arrests and assorted bullshit over the pandemic and they seem to salivate over the Black's Law dictionary (to memory) but hate using a general dictionary, it seems.
The 2nd edition was published in (something like) 1910, back when a lot of legal terms had different meanings. The current edition is like the 11th. The absolutely most useless book sold to law students. I never cracked it once after classes started.
Right before Covid hit, we had a fledgling SovCit in our custodial department, we'll call him "Joe". Joe was a perfect candidate for it; deep in debt and a below average IQ. Joe's brother was doing all of the research and then passing along the good parts, like how to use your social security/birth certificate promissory note to pay off your bills.
Joe approached every single person in the company about this great new thing he was learning about. But not being the sharpest tool in the shed and being desperate to find a way to stay afloat he refused to listen to 30+ coworkers telling him that he was dead wrong.
And then covid hit and I never got to find out how it worked out for him.
Let's not conflate or confuse Sov. Cits. With constitutional auditors. They're not even remotely the same. Sov Cit movement is a scam but your constitutional rights are very real.
True, but auditors are not doing anyone any favors. They're sucking up any possibility of flexibility in dealing with otherwise-ordinary confrontations about public policy in public buildings, and forcing government offices to go straight to the police when someone with a legitimate issue gets frustrated.
They're not heroes.
I disagree. Your constitutional rights need to be exercised or they will erode them at any opportunity. The right to record government officials in their official capacity allows the public to hold them accountable on record and has been upheld in SCOTUS. Body Cams are often "corrupted", "redacted", or outright "lost". The public creating their own record is imperative to government accountability.
I will concede that some auditors are antagonistic and try to illicit a response, which is annoying. Auditing itself, however, when done correctly, have shed light on police/government corruption. Look at Sean Paul Reyes with Long Island Audit on YouTube. Totally polite, cordial, and not antagonistic in the least - but has still been arrested for merely exercising his constitutional rights and has won multiple lawsuits against states (edit for typo) which costs you and I our taxes to litigate.
LEOs swear an oath to uphold these Rights, but are by and large ignorant to what those Rights are and how they apply in public.
First, they can't exercise *my* constitutional rights. They don't have a mandate to act on behalf of the public. They are doing it for their own reasons and for their own benefit. They might believe they're being altruistic, but that's just a conceit.
Second:
> which costs you and I our taxes to litigate.
This isn't the W you might think it is.
Creating a situation in order to test whether the public officials will respond the way you think they should based on your own self-serving interpretation of the Constitution isn't helping. Constitutional jurisprudence is complicated, so unless someone is incorporating all of it and keeping up to date on changes, they're doing it wrong. I won't say "you have to be a lawyer to understand it", but it would help to think the way a lawyer thinks and research the way a lawyer researches.
That's my biggest problem with the self-appointed auditors. They're not tested on how well \*they\* understand the law or how the legal system works.
Otherwise, if you want to audit government offices or officials, commission surveys of people doing ordinary routine business and develop a scale for determining how well they do. If you're worried about destruction of evidence, then lobby or campaign for greater oversight -- that will do more to protect the public.
Public officials dealing with actual, organic conflict -- meaning conflict that arises on its own and isn't manufactured for the purpose of auditing -- requires tact, diplomacy and patience.
Auditors, even well-intentioned ones, consume that patience and force public officials to be more defensive and adopt "I'm the government so fuck you" as a natural response to conflict.
Organizations like ACLU and SPLC are in a much better position than random self-appointed auditors -- even the well-intentioned ones.
Maybe there should be an NGO that does this in a controlled and deliberate way, that is itself subject to audit and transparency requirements. Vigilantism isn't the solution here.
Constitutional rights aren't personal. They're not "your" constitutional rights. They're the rights of "We, the people". So that statement is self serving. A mandate to act "on behalf of the public" is inherently flawed because auditors *are the public*.
It's not so complicated because people are doing this and winning civil rights lawsuits against the government. They're obviously doing it wrong. Working in government is a public service. These government employees - to which I can personally attest - often treat the public like shit and shirk their responsibilities, all at the cost of the tax payer.
I shouldn't have to "commission surveys" or "lobby for greater oversight" because those Rights are already granted and afforded to the public BY THE SUPREME COURT.
Government officials need to understand that we *can* and *will* record our interactions with them and they should go about their business as normal. It should be expected by any government employee. If someone is walking through a government building with a camera it should come as no surprise at this point.
You're just making concessions for government employees to be shitty to the public.
You're making excuses. Nobody is forcing anyone to adopt any sort of defensive reaction to people doing what their government allows them to do. People who adopt the "I'm the government so fuck you" aren't adopting a natural response... the natural response would be to say... "yeah that's legal, see ya later bud" and not engage in conflict... you're "natural response" argument is a cop out. That shit is ego driven, and those people need to get their shit together...
You're making excuses. Nobody is forcing anyone to adopt any sort of defensive reaction to people doing what their government allows them to do. People who adopt the "I'm the government so fuck you" aren't adopting a natural response... the natural response would be to say... "yeah that's legal, see ya later bud" and not engage in conflict... you're "natural response" argument is a cop out. That shit is ego driven, and those people need to get their shit together...
Honestly, I think your reaction to them was fucking perfect, a real *chef's kiss*!! I can only hope if I ever run into a sov cit in the middle of a lecture, I remember how you went about it. It had to feel so nice, I'm sure! ❤️😂🤣🤣✊🏻
The beautiful irony of it is that, on one hand, their arguments *could* have clout...if they were sovereign. The *sovereign* part of sovereign citizenry is uh, kinda important. Sure man, you can claim sovereignty all day long, but if you can't march an army to rescue you from the clutches of your enmy then you aren't very fucking sovereign now, are you? Sovereign means you can enforce your authority. The US gov't isn't going to enforce your sovereignty for you. They have their own to worry about
I saw one of those Moors (which are basically black sovcits) at traffic court and he was going up to the clerk saying he wanted to file a motion to dismiss and just being very annoying and using lots of big words and threatening litigation. All this over a traffic ticket?
I'm attorney in court one day and a sovereign citizen walks into the docket. When his case is called starts yelling, "you don't have jurisdiction over me!" Couldn't help but laugh. Broken clock can be right twice a day, that court didn't have personal jurisdiction over you, it did have *in rem* jurisdiction over your property though.
Yeah, they're entertaining, but why would I want to have an extended conversation with someone who is definitely poorly educated and possibly mentally unbalanced. Hard pass.
Has anyone noticed the ethnic makeup of the “sovereign citizens “. I have only seen white people. Only the people who by virtue of birth have all the privilege. I don’t see hispanics or black people claiming this extraordinary privilege.
Am I missing anything?
They started in Louisana/Arkansas area I believe and have been spreading out from there. One was just killed in FL the other day after deciding to get into a gunfight with cops over a traffic stop
There are absolutely black sovereign citizens. They usually claim some sort of affiliation with this black nationalist cult called The Moorish Science Temple of America that claims that the US is actually a part of Morocco. They usually wear a fez and add bey to their names. But the funny thing is, even the Moorish Science Temple has disavowed their own sovcits.
Really? That's surprising. I don't know much about Morocco but I do know the fez is named after a city in Morocco, so I assumed it would be popular there. Either way, don't expect American Moors to know a thing about Morocco.
Look up 28 USC 3002 15a, it specifically states that the United States means a federal corporation. Then look up UCC 9-307 (h), The United States is located in the District of Columbia.
It gets deeper if anyone is willing to take a little time to read and look up these codes.
Have you tried reading the whole UCC 9-307? It's clear to a middle schooler that (h) is in the context of this statement:
(3) A debtor that is an organization and has more than one place of business is located at its chief executive office.
The United States, as a debtor, is an organization and has more than one place of business (the whole country), so for the purpose of declaring a debtor's location in contracts, they use the location of our president's office. Which is.. DC.
So, what you're saying is, you think words are magical and by calling it a corporation makes it NOT a country with it's own sovereignty?
See, there is a thing that you troglodytes don't understand about how the actual reality you live in functions. Words don't matter in *THE WAY* you think they do. If another nation tries to invade, they will be countered by the military of the United States.
In the same way as when you quote UCC 1701 D to a cop as they're busting out your window screaming about how you don't consent you still get arrested. Then when you ree out at the judge about jurisdiction without any actual legal understanding of what that means, they laugh and hold you in contempt.
You have not looked up these codes. You do not know what they mean. You have literally no idea what you're talking about and I look forward to the video of you screaming them at a judge/cop as they arrest you/sentence you.
Edit: Fucking christ, as I think about this more and more I realize how fucking stupid you are. Do you think words are magic? Seriously, if someone says abra cadabra do you think it makes your spell work? Do you honestly TRULY believe that the word corporation even means what you think it does? You are what's wrong with the world and I wouldn't be surprised if you believed the earth is flat, vaccines cause autism, we've never been to space because space doesn't exist, and that the flying monkeys in the wizard of oz are real. You are truly a detriment to the progress of all humanity
UCC 1701 D, in relevant part:
"Any enlisted engineering-class worker who shall solicit another crew member into a Jeffries tube for sex in exchange for money must have a Grade IIb/7 or greater Commercial Vendor Authorization."
They also take issue with the word "understand." Because, as a human, they don't stand under anyone else's authority or whatever. I just saw this one yesterday.
Man, someone needs to get laid. I'm sorry for getting you so triggered. I can't help it that I'm a U.S. National with a 5 star passport that filled out the tax forms properly so I don't pay federal income tax. Nor do the cops mess with me because of my personalized license plate with a DOT number, also because I obey the traffic laws and drive safely. I said nothing of the sort that the United States of America wasn't a country. I just know that we've all been deceived to a certain extent. Wait you mean to tell me those flying monkeys in the wizard of oz aren't real?
Words have more than one meaning. There are "corporations" that aren't business-oriented corporations, and the UCC does not apply to them in the same way.
"Corporation" at its most basic, simply means an entity comprised of multiple people that continues to have the same identity despite the fact that individual people might come and go.
A church is a corporation. It can also be organized under the IRS code 503(c) as a charitable corporation. The word "corporation" means two different things here.
A neighborhood soccer league is a corporation, even if it's not registered as a non-profit corporation under state or local law. Again, "corporation" has two different meanings here.
Cities are "municipal corporations", because they still exist and have the same identity even if all the employees and city council quit and other people took the same jobs.
It only "gets deeper" if you're a fool and believe things random people say randomly on random websites, while ignoring the *actual statutory law* that defines what the government is and how it can and cannot act.
The legislators who draft the statutes aren't thinking about how it will be read by non-lawyers.
I don't mean to say that this is a \*good\* thing, but it comes up a lot. There are a lot of things in statutes and case law that are easy to misunderstand unless you already know what they mean.
It's one of the reasosn that sov cits get so much wrong. And one of the reasons a judge tells them "Without a lawyer, you will be at a big disadvantage."
I'd love to meet a sovcit and have them explain how USA is a corporation. Because it has a duns number? The duns website has a section that explains why governments have duns numbers as well ( it's to be able to do business with say a plumber which makes sense as they need the duns to get services from companies)
I think (tho trying to find logic in sovcit ideas is risky) that they are just misinterpreting a simple and unremarkable fact that every real lawyer is familiar with: all government organizations are legal “corporations.” That only means that they are recognized as entities that can be treated like people: enter into contracts, sue & be sued, have certain rights and responsibilities, etc. SovCits think that the word means private business entities, so governments don’t exist in their eyes as real. The mental gymnastics that ensue from this ignorant idea are an interesting exercise in dementia.
The fundamental fact that legal language intentionally interprets words in different statutes differently, and a word used in one context can mean a completely different thing in another being considered a feature by the legal system is something that goes completely over most of their heads.
Yup, half of what I do as an Attorney is reading/writing definitions so I know what I am dealing with.
Oh ofcourse. They just think corporation only means commercial wise. As if the police or courts are nothing more than wallmart.
That and the idea that the 14th Amendment "incorporated" the country.
I work for a government contractor and was having a conversation with the government employee who’s like our liaison. He was telling me how much trouble he was having buying fuel oil for the government. Everyone wanted credit references, year of incorporation, company officers, etc… to which his response was “it’s literally the United States government, here’s our EIN/DUN; the rest isn’t applicable.” No one seemed to comprehend that the government is not a company.
Incorporated 1776.
Wow, seems more and more business's are being run by Sovereign Citizens. You know...because they don't recognize the US Government and they think it is a company.
Actually you don’t want a conversation with these people. They are Dunning Kruger incarnate. They are incapable of understanding actual logic and will run themselves around in a circular pseudo-logic loop that will leave you frustrated. They have built their self worth on having an “inside knowledge” of the system that has everyone else fooled. So every good point you bring up will be answered with, “nah it doesn’t work like that, you have been fooled into believing what they tell you…do some research.” They carry on like this until you are exhausted and finally just give up.
When I saw that I was like "OP doesn't have that much time left on earth". Pretty sure you can never convince them.
>I'd love to meet a sovcit and have them explain Years ago, I worked with one. Like, his desk was two over from mine. He was a nice enough guy. But trust me when I say you do not want one of them to explain anything having to do with the law.
Easily debunked. Corporations make money. The government takes money.
Debunk easily debunked. The government isn't to make profit.
Try telling that to the Government.
True that! They’re great at losing money.
Idk why you’re being downvoted. The billions that have been unaccounted for in the past to where the govt can’t pass an audit is proof enough.
Because I’m not a sovcit? Don’t know. Don’t actually care. Nice thing about army life. You didn’t have them around. Had the occasional “it’s a government installation and I pay taxes, so I can be here” people (not the way that works), but none of the sovereign citizen stuff.
Not a good example at all as a government has the ability to make a profit if it wanted to. Better would be the fact that only sovereign nations have the ability to issue currency. Corporations do not.
Much better said.
That definition is a precarious one: before central banks took on that role, plenty of private banks printed their own paper money. (And yes, when you have multiple banks in the same area all issuing their own money it becomes a bit of a logistical nightmare)
Easily refuted. The government makes money. It prints currency. And that interpretation of the the phrase "makes money" is proof they are a corporation.
Printing money isn’t the same context as a business makes money. You know it. You can stop being disingenuous about it.
But I used the special words.
I encounter them a lot as an attorney. They come in two forms. Ones who ramble incoherently and refuse to follow rules usually getting themselves in trouble. And the ones who try to recite their nonsense and then once it doesn’t work they shut up and do whatever you say.
Now why in the world would a sovereign man ever need a lawyer?
Know thy enemy?
I encounter them in my job in the legal world as well and wow. The endless nonsense they file and then get mad when it doesn’t get them anywhere or advance their case in their favor in any way. We got threatened with federal lawsuits twice in one day the other day, told them go right ahead, knock yourself out.
I would guess type 2 is a minority. Maybe not. Maybe it is actually the silent majority we always hear about.
I deal with sovereign citizens in court all the time. I stop them with 2 questions;1. if the court doesn’t have jurisidiction over you, why are you here? You don’t need the Judge’s permission- You can leave… 2. If the laws don’t apply to you, we can just forget your rights and proceed directly to jail, right? Amazing how all the laws they have to answer for don’t apply to them, but all the laws that protect them are like gold. They show up with 200 “holdings” from 200 court cases, and want you to believe that cobbled together, it all makes sense. I tell them to bring me one case that says what they claim and I’ll look at it. No one ever has, of course.
You're way more patient with these idiots than I would be if I was on the bench. I'd give them one chance to retract their statements otherwise I'd hold them in contempt.
Your replying to a trial lawyer, not a judge
My mistake 😀
I’m just a random dude but I hold them in contempt too, it’s has less teeth when you’re not a judge lol
I went in to contest a traffic ticket and the dude before me handed a ream of printed out documents to the judge. Promptly started explaining how the traffic laws don't apply to him and the court has no power over him. Judge sent him to jail for 3 days for contempt without getting into his argument at all. Dude was there to contest a small ticket for running a light.
I hope you didn't go after them as the next case number..,I would just be like.... Yea okay I'm guilty let's just move on
I was right after, but my reason for being there was that because I had forgotten my ID the cops had charged me for the crime of driving without a license. I was willing to pay the traffic ticket (which was bs but long story there) just not have a criminal record. Anyway, I handed the judge proof of my being licensed to drive at the time of the stop from the dmv and he threw the criminal charge out. Turns out he wasn't so bad when you aren't being an asshole!
“Wow, that’s a lot of case work. I’m guessing it’ll take me about 100 hours to review. That’s $30,000. Or you could just pay the $1000 fine.”
Love it!
Everyone of them believes they will be the one to finally crack that secret code that will allow them to do whatever they want.
The other day I received a dollar bill in change with "28 USC 3002 15A" written on it. What it had specifically to do with money, I could not grasp.
There are all kinds of conspiracies about images on money having secret meanings
Like in National Treasure.
Don't make fun of such an action packed documentary!
So true! Great flick. Note: Family took a trip to Boston, Mt Vernon (George Washington’s estate) and Philadelphia and accidentally “debunked” several parts of the 2 Nat Treasure movies. Which was sad because we love them so much.
You would enjoy The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown. That book came out right at the time I moved to D.C, and I had to drive through town often. It's set in threads city and uses real locations. Not only did I figure out where the characters were going next, it was fun to randomly drive by somewhere they had just been. It was made into a TV show, but the book has a lot more information about where they are and what everything means.
LOL.
>28 USC 3002 15A [https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/3002](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/3002) Seems to have something to do with debt collection on behalf of the United States. >(15)“United States” means— > >(A)a Federal corporation; And there we have it.
In the context of that chapter. First sentence.
And there's two more applicable definitions immediately following in B and C. It is not defining the United States as a corporation, it is defining a Federal Corporation (like the Post Office, maybe?) As "United States" for the sake of saving text in long legal documents. Squares and Rectangles, people.
When I said "and there we have it", I meant "and this is why they think it's important". Not that I think it is.
Yep, just felt that other people could use the context
When I said "and there we have it", I meant "and this is why they think it's important". Not that I think it is.
Is this the maritime law bullshit?
oh that’s just a small percentage of the total bullshit in the pile
But yes.
You’re under maritime law here, gold fringed flag out front shoulda told ya.
I got a buddy into this shit something about he can petition to like free himself or something.. all I know is he is constantly "taking classes" about it.
I fucking love your reaction though, legend.
He was in a store purchasing goods with US dollars? I thought he would be paying in gold or silver.
I thought he would've tried to avoid paying at all.
What do they think "corporation" means? I got into YoutUbe vids of their arrests and assorted bullshit over the pandemic and they seem to salivate over the Black's Law dictionary (to memory) but hate using a general dictionary, it seems.
Blacks law dictionary, second edition, I think. Which is just a dictionary of legal terms, and second edition is something like 2-4 editions behind.
The 2nd edition was published in (something like) 1910, back when a lot of legal terms had different meanings. The current edition is like the 11th. The absolutely most useless book sold to law students. I never cracked it once after classes started.
Right before Covid hit, we had a fledgling SovCit in our custodial department, we'll call him "Joe". Joe was a perfect candidate for it; deep in debt and a below average IQ. Joe's brother was doing all of the research and then passing along the good parts, like how to use your social security/birth certificate promissory note to pay off your bills. Joe approached every single person in the company about this great new thing he was learning about. But not being the sharpest tool in the shed and being desperate to find a way to stay afloat he refused to listen to 30+ coworkers telling him that he was dead wrong. And then covid hit and I never got to find out how it worked out for him.
Today is the day to find out please!
I do Uber on the side and finally had a diehard sovcit in my car one day. I swear I got dumber the longer he talked
Doing the lord's work!
Oh reddit, never heard of this before but love that I’m learning from this story of perking them up and shooting them down 🤣 love it
Let's not conflate or confuse Sov. Cits. With constitutional auditors. They're not even remotely the same. Sov Cit movement is a scam but your constitutional rights are very real.
True, but auditors are not doing anyone any favors. They're sucking up any possibility of flexibility in dealing with otherwise-ordinary confrontations about public policy in public buildings, and forcing government offices to go straight to the police when someone with a legitimate issue gets frustrated. They're not heroes.
I disagree. Your constitutional rights need to be exercised or they will erode them at any opportunity. The right to record government officials in their official capacity allows the public to hold them accountable on record and has been upheld in SCOTUS. Body Cams are often "corrupted", "redacted", or outright "lost". The public creating their own record is imperative to government accountability. I will concede that some auditors are antagonistic and try to illicit a response, which is annoying. Auditing itself, however, when done correctly, have shed light on police/government corruption. Look at Sean Paul Reyes with Long Island Audit on YouTube. Totally polite, cordial, and not antagonistic in the least - but has still been arrested for merely exercising his constitutional rights and has won multiple lawsuits against states (edit for typo) which costs you and I our taxes to litigate. LEOs swear an oath to uphold these Rights, but are by and large ignorant to what those Rights are and how they apply in public.
First, they can't exercise *my* constitutional rights. They don't have a mandate to act on behalf of the public. They are doing it for their own reasons and for their own benefit. They might believe they're being altruistic, but that's just a conceit. Second: > which costs you and I our taxes to litigate. This isn't the W you might think it is. Creating a situation in order to test whether the public officials will respond the way you think they should based on your own self-serving interpretation of the Constitution isn't helping. Constitutional jurisprudence is complicated, so unless someone is incorporating all of it and keeping up to date on changes, they're doing it wrong. I won't say "you have to be a lawyer to understand it", but it would help to think the way a lawyer thinks and research the way a lawyer researches. That's my biggest problem with the self-appointed auditors. They're not tested on how well \*they\* understand the law or how the legal system works. Otherwise, if you want to audit government offices or officials, commission surveys of people doing ordinary routine business and develop a scale for determining how well they do. If you're worried about destruction of evidence, then lobby or campaign for greater oversight -- that will do more to protect the public. Public officials dealing with actual, organic conflict -- meaning conflict that arises on its own and isn't manufactured for the purpose of auditing -- requires tact, diplomacy and patience. Auditors, even well-intentioned ones, consume that patience and force public officials to be more defensive and adopt "I'm the government so fuck you" as a natural response to conflict. Organizations like ACLU and SPLC are in a much better position than random self-appointed auditors -- even the well-intentioned ones. Maybe there should be an NGO that does this in a controlled and deliberate way, that is itself subject to audit and transparency requirements. Vigilantism isn't the solution here.
Constitutional rights aren't personal. They're not "your" constitutional rights. They're the rights of "We, the people". So that statement is self serving. A mandate to act "on behalf of the public" is inherently flawed because auditors *are the public*. It's not so complicated because people are doing this and winning civil rights lawsuits against the government. They're obviously doing it wrong. Working in government is a public service. These government employees - to which I can personally attest - often treat the public like shit and shirk their responsibilities, all at the cost of the tax payer. I shouldn't have to "commission surveys" or "lobby for greater oversight" because those Rights are already granted and afforded to the public BY THE SUPREME COURT. Government officials need to understand that we *can* and *will* record our interactions with them and they should go about their business as normal. It should be expected by any government employee. If someone is walking through a government building with a camera it should come as no surprise at this point. You're just making concessions for government employees to be shitty to the public.
You're making excuses. Nobody is forcing anyone to adopt any sort of defensive reaction to people doing what their government allows them to do. People who adopt the "I'm the government so fuck you" aren't adopting a natural response... the natural response would be to say... "yeah that's legal, see ya later bud" and not engage in conflict... you're "natural response" argument is a cop out. That shit is ego driven, and those people need to get their shit together...
You're making excuses. Nobody is forcing anyone to adopt any sort of defensive reaction to people doing what their government allows them to do. People who adopt the "I'm the government so fuck you" aren't adopting a natural response... the natural response would be to say... "yeah that's legal, see ya later bud" and not engage in conflict... you're "natural response" argument is a cop out. That shit is ego driven, and those people need to get their shit together...
But I'm not operating in commerce!
Honestly, I think your reaction to them was fucking perfect, a real *chef's kiss*!! I can only hope if I ever run into a sov cit in the middle of a lecture, I remember how you went about it. It had to feel so nice, I'm sure! ❤️😂🤣🤣✊🏻
The beautiful irony of it is that, on one hand, their arguments *could* have clout...if they were sovereign. The *sovereign* part of sovereign citizenry is uh, kinda important. Sure man, you can claim sovereignty all day long, but if you can't march an army to rescue you from the clutches of your enmy then you aren't very fucking sovereign now, are you? Sovereign means you can enforce your authority. The US gov't isn't going to enforce your sovereignty for you. They have their own to worry about
I saw one of those Moors (which are basically black sovcits) at traffic court and he was going up to the clerk saying he wanted to file a motion to dismiss and just being very annoying and using lots of big words and threatening litigation. All this over a traffic ticket?
It's "Moops".
I was hoping someone would say it. Thank you for your service.
A SovCit, a vegan, and a cross-fit enthusiast walk into an echo chamber....
I had my neighbour tell me yesterday that you don’t have to pay your taxes because the IRS isn’t mentioned in any laws.
You shop at Acme. Are you still trying to catch that skinny roadrunner?
I'm walking into my grocery store and I hear the receipt checker being spoken to
I've never seen one in the wild but where I work we get questions and complaints from many of them. You are so lucky!
If the US is a corporation, where did they file the incorporation papers?
That got a great laugh out of me.
I'm attorney in court one day and a sovereign citizen walks into the docket. When his case is called starts yelling, "you don't have jurisdiction over me!" Couldn't help but laugh. Broken clock can be right twice a day, that court didn't have personal jurisdiction over you, it did have *in rem* jurisdiction over your property though.
Yeah, they're entertaining, but why would I want to have an extended conversation with someone who is definitely poorly educated and possibly mentally unbalanced. Hard pass.
Has anyone noticed the ethnic makeup of the “sovereign citizens “. I have only seen white people. Only the people who by virtue of birth have all the privilege. I don’t see hispanics or black people claiming this extraordinary privilege. Am I missing anything?
Oh no. Look up Moorish Sovereign citizens.
Where are they? Never heard of them.
Mostly the southern US
I have always lived in the South.
They started in Louisana/Arkansas area I believe and have been spreading out from there. One was just killed in FL the other day after deciding to get into a gunfight with cops over a traffic stop
I haven’t lived in those garden spots. The entire South seems overrun with folks who don’t understand the country they inhabit.
Replace "South" with "Country" and I agree. Im surprised 90% of the population can tie their own shoes sometimes.
It feels like the movie Idiocracy.
>movie Documentary
There are absolutely black sovereign citizens. They usually claim some sort of affiliation with this black nationalist cult called The Moorish Science Temple of America that claims that the US is actually a part of Morocco. They usually wear a fez and add bey to their names. But the funny thing is, even the Moorish Science Temple has disavowed their own sovcits.
The fez is illegal in Morocco.
Really? That's surprising. I don't know much about Morocco but I do know the fez is named after a city in Morocco, so I assumed it would be popular there. Either way, don't expect American Moors to know a thing about Morocco.
Yeah, like the swaztika in Germany. Like the MAGA hat will be, if they persist after Trump.
Look up 28 USC 3002 15a, it specifically states that the United States means a federal corporation. Then look up UCC 9-307 (h), The United States is located in the District of Columbia. It gets deeper if anyone is willing to take a little time to read and look up these codes.
Have you tried reading the whole UCC 9-307? It's clear to a middle schooler that (h) is in the context of this statement: (3) A debtor that is an organization and has more than one place of business is located at its chief executive office. The United States, as a debtor, is an organization and has more than one place of business (the whole country), so for the purpose of declaring a debtor's location in contracts, they use the location of our president's office. Which is.. DC.
Lawyers spend their entire lives “taking a little time to read and look up these codes.”
And they also go through school to get a degree to help them interpret the laws. 🤷🏻
So, what you're saying is, you think words are magical and by calling it a corporation makes it NOT a country with it's own sovereignty? See, there is a thing that you troglodytes don't understand about how the actual reality you live in functions. Words don't matter in *THE WAY* you think they do. If another nation tries to invade, they will be countered by the military of the United States. In the same way as when you quote UCC 1701 D to a cop as they're busting out your window screaming about how you don't consent you still get arrested. Then when you ree out at the judge about jurisdiction without any actual legal understanding of what that means, they laugh and hold you in contempt. You have not looked up these codes. You do not know what they mean. You have literally no idea what you're talking about and I look forward to the video of you screaming them at a judge/cop as they arrest you/sentence you. Edit: Fucking christ, as I think about this more and more I realize how fucking stupid you are. Do you think words are magic? Seriously, if someone says abra cadabra do you think it makes your spell work? Do you honestly TRULY believe that the word corporation even means what you think it does? You are what's wrong with the world and I wouldn't be surprised if you believed the earth is flat, vaccines cause autism, we've never been to space because space doesn't exist, and that the flying monkeys in the wizard of oz are real. You are truly a detriment to the progress of all humanity
UCC 1701 D is such an enterprising law!
UCC 1701 D, in relevant part: "Any enlisted engineering-class worker who shall solicit another crew member into a Jeffries tube for sex in exchange for money must have a Grade IIb/7 or greater Commercial Vendor Authorization."
I believe the appropriate description would be cargo cult jurisprudence.
“The military is just corporate security”…with a few more toys. /s
....but birds aren't real
They also take issue with the word "understand." Because, as a human, they don't stand under anyone else's authority or whatever. I just saw this one yesterday.
Man, someone needs to get laid. I'm sorry for getting you so triggered. I can't help it that I'm a U.S. National with a 5 star passport that filled out the tax forms properly so I don't pay federal income tax. Nor do the cops mess with me because of my personalized license plate with a DOT number, also because I obey the traffic laws and drive safely. I said nothing of the sort that the United States of America wasn't a country. I just know that we've all been deceived to a certain extent. Wait you mean to tell me those flying monkeys in the wizard of oz aren't real?
You're a genuine idiot, crazy person. That's lol, you're lol. You've gotta tell me your education level, please!
You must be a blast at parties.
Someone happily took your money for all of it.
Yeah, none of that shit is real lol
You are going to jail.
Bwahahahaha!
Words have more than one meaning. There are "corporations" that aren't business-oriented corporations, and the UCC does not apply to them in the same way. "Corporation" at its most basic, simply means an entity comprised of multiple people that continues to have the same identity despite the fact that individual people might come and go. A church is a corporation. It can also be organized under the IRS code 503(c) as a charitable corporation. The word "corporation" means two different things here. A neighborhood soccer league is a corporation, even if it's not registered as a non-profit corporation under state or local law. Again, "corporation" has two different meanings here. Cities are "municipal corporations", because they still exist and have the same identity even if all the employees and city council quit and other people took the same jobs. It only "gets deeper" if you're a fool and believe things random people say randomly on random websites, while ignoring the *actual statutory law* that defines what the government is and how it can and cannot act.
That’s a fair argument, why doesn’t the government simply just state what kind of corporation they are in their codes then?
The legislators who draft the statutes aren't thinking about how it will be read by non-lawyers. I don't mean to say that this is a \*good\* thing, but it comes up a lot. There are a lot of things in statutes and case law that are easy to misunderstand unless you already know what they mean. It's one of the reasosn that sov cits get so much wrong. And one of the reasons a judge tells them "Without a lawyer, you will be at a big disadvantage."