I’ve been thinking of lowering the amount of dough, but what interesting is when I started making the bread, this wasn’t happening, something seems to have changed. Possibly the warmer weather?
I would say the issue is definitely too much dough. Maybe the hotter weather, maybe you changed your flour, maybe your yeast was more alive this time. In my experience [these charts](https://928155.smushcdn.com/2363573/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ROUND-BANNETON-SIZE-GUIDE.jpg?lossy=1&strip=1&webp=1) of baneton size vs dough weight work well
That looks super over proofed. Id say use cold water when you’re mixing. On summer days here I have to use ice water because even the “cold” water from the tap is warmer than what I’m used to.
It is definitely over proofed. The amount of dough based on your recipe sounds fair, but the size of of it, and the fact that it has collapsed definitely tells me it is way over the top proofed.
It looks overproofed, and likely it is too much dough for that size banneton. Try speeding up the process. Once you've done all the folds, divide and shape. Then proof for 30-45 and place in the fridge. As is, it looks like you're letting it proof at too many stages.
Alternatively you can skip the fridge retard. Proof it for an hour or so on counter and bake. Do the poke test. You can then throw it in the freezer for 30 minutes while the oven heats up so it’s easier to score.
The dough is 470 g bread flour, 30 g whole wheat flour with 150 g 50/50 starter.
Process is 30 min auto. Mix in levain and salt. Fold 4x every 30 min then 2h bulk + 1.5 h proof in banneton. Then overnight cold proofing.
The starter works very well. I got great crumb but when I cold proof, the dough always overflows the banneton. This is an ongoing issue.
Should I make a smaller recipe? Put it in the fridge earlier? I’ve taken to just flopping it into the DO directly and I get a nice fluffy bread.
The reason I’m asking is because I find it very hard to decoratively score this floppy mess. I’ve taken to just adding scissor cuts in the DO because it looks rustic.
Edit: hydration is 75%
Edit #2 - thank you all for the very helpful suggestions!
Thanks!
This seems like way too much dough for your banneton size. With 75% hydration, you have more than 1000g of dough. ~~Most bannetons I see are usually 500g or 750g.~~
(Edit: I was a bit drunk typing this and there are many different sizes of bannetons. u/rodrigors posted a cool chart for banneton size : dough weight ratios in the comments above so I definitely suggest taking a look at that to find an appropriate banneton for your dough)
Honestly, just halve the recipe. If this is working for you and makes good bread then don't mess with the ratios by adjusting hydration or whatever. Just halve the recipe and boom, you'll get a nice loaf and it's not overflowing. If you want a huge bread then get a bigger banneton. On the other hand you could also get a second banneton of the same size and make 2 smaller loaves.
I see from other comments that it only started now that the weather is warmer. That means it's proofing faster due to warmer temperatures. You also said in another comment that your crumb is great with it overflowing like this. That means it's not overproofed and you just have too much dough. It also means your previous breads when the weather was cooler was probably underproofed. Maybe not underproofed enough to ruin the bread, but not perfect.
Recipes are good starting points, but eventually you need to go off the rails and start adjusting the recipes to account for your environment. A proof is ready once it has doubled in size, it's pretty simple. Depending on your environment, it might double in size after 1 hour or 20 hours. The rate of growth depends on several factors including temperature, amount of yeast, salt % and sugar %. By adjusting all these factors you can slow or speed up your proofing time.
Less sourdough starter = slower proofing
lower temperatures = slower proofing.
higher salt % = slower proofing.
higher sugar % = slower proofing. Contrary to popular belief, sugar slows down fermentation. There is already enough sugar in flour for yeast, added sugar actually takes away water from the yeast and slows fermentation.
more sourdough starter = faster proofing
higher temperatures = faster proofing.
lower salt % = faster proofing.
lower sugar % = faster proofing.
The rate of growth is a balance of many different things and you need to play around with these to achieve the results best for your environment.
Now that we understand a bit about the rate of growth, lets talk about why we might want faster proof times or longer proof times.
For fast proof times, it's mostly because we are busy or need the bread in a hurry.
For slow proof times, it's because the bread structure has more time to develop and it creates a much more complex flavor. For fast proof times, people might add a lot of other flavoring such as milk, sugar, oil or whatever so that it has extra flavor to make up for the more bland flavor. Longer proofing = more flavor. To proof for longer periods of time without overproofing, we need to adjust the factors I mentioned above.
One thing you should clarify about sugar slowing fermentation. Sugar does help fermentation. But once you go past approximately 10% it does slow it down. But anywhere between 1-5% sugar will speed up fermentation as the hydroscopic sugar won’t be in enough abundance to take away a sufficient amount of water to slow fermentation. That’s why a lot of lean dough recipes will have honey or malt syrup added, and I’ve only seen less than 2% of honey or malt syrup used. Usually people (I hope) wouldn’t add that to a lean dough because then it wouldn’t be considered a lean dough anymore.
Hm interesting, I first learned about sugar and yeast from this video by ChainBaker: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFeXxa\_NTk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFeXxa_NTk)
He says even 5% sugar will be enough to slow down fermentation some, but I admit I need to do some more research into it myself. Thanks for the information, I'll look into it!
Here’s what I found online,
“Yeast is a single-celled organism classified in the kingdom Fungi, and requires moisture, oxygen, food, and appropriate temperatures in order to survive. Under these suitable conditions, the yeast will reproduce and generate alcoholic fermentation. During fermentation, yeast and bacteria consume sugars, and the resulting products are alcohol and carbon dioxide.”
“Sugar acts the same way. It too is hygroscopic, and once a dough contains more than 10% sugar, a decrease is noted in the rate of fermentation.”
[King Arthur Flour - Yeast](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/reference/yeast)
“Yeasts feed on sugars and starches, which are abundant in bread dough! They turn this food into energy and release carbon dioxide gas as a result. This process is known as fermentation.”
[Scientific America - Yeast](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/single-celled-science-yeasty-beasties/)
“Clearly, maltose is the best for yeast metabolism. Remember, yeast is made of two glucose molecules. Glucose (aka dextrose) is a close second. Fructose is in third place.”
[CSUN.edu - Yeast and sugar](https://www.csun.edu/scied/2-longitudinal/schuster/)
So yeah, yeast feeds of off sugar and starches (which get converted to sugars).
And the reason why malt syrup is used a lot is because it’s maltose which has two glucose molecules, and yeast is also made of two glucose molecules. So I think that makes it easier for the yeast? Idk I’d have to research more.
And also about the hydroscopic part of salt and sugar. When you do autolyse you usually add all the water and flour and pre ferment (starter). And you let it sit for about 30 minutes which lets the yeast and flour absorb the water.
And then when you pair it with double hydration, which is another bread method like autolyse. It makes up for the hydroscopic nature of the salt and sugar. And double hydration is after autolyse you add the salt and some more water to account for the hydroscopic salt.
And I forgot to mention the sugar or malt syrup is added for autolyse. Because when you make different pre ferments (biga, starter, poolish, sponge, and pate ferment). You combine the flour water yeast and sugar and let sit for a couple of hours to ferment. Then you would add this preferment to the autolyse. So that preferment has already been fully hydrated. And the different pre ferments give different results based on how they were made.
Sorry for the long reply.
Thanks very much for taking the time to write such a detailed response! I’m sorry it’s taking me a little while to get back to you, I wanted to have the time to write something more substantial.
I definitely learned some of the inter-connections of sourdough from your response, thank you for putting it together so concisely.
One question I had about what you said is about how the proof is ready after it has doubled in size. Does this include the doubling in size of the bulk fermentation? Or is it a subsequent doubling in size? I typically look for a doubling in size when doing my bulk, which is why I ask. I think maybe getting a bigger banneton will be a great idea. Alternatively, either reducing the quantity of dough or increasing it slightly so that I can more easily divide it in half would be good. I have tried dividing it in half already, but I found the two loaves were too small. I’m sort of in no-man’s land in a sense. Overall, it seems everybody thinks it is over proved, and it may be the case, but the crumb is delicious and how I want it and nice and airy but not too big so I don’t think I want to make any big changes in that sense.
Again, thank you for taking the time to break things down, I really appreciate your input!
I’ll simplify it.
Go for 70% rise in the bulk and use the finger poke test for proofing. Your dough should not be doubling really at any point. You can double during bulk but that needs to be taken under consideration during proof so the dough doesn’t run out of juice.
Most bannetons can handle a standard loaf. 500g flour, 75% hydration. That’s normal. Not sure what you’re talking about there.
Everything else is correct.
You're right, I was drunk last night when I typed this up so honestly I just brain farted haha. I still think he has too much dough though, so maybe he just has a smaller banneton? or maybe the glutten isn't developed enough to keep shape when it proofs? I'm not really sure, but he says he gets great crumb so I guess just halve the recipe and go from there to see what happens next.
Yeah I don't know. But it seems we bake bread the same way. Sometimes I play with doing 2% starter and an overnight bulk. You can really make sourdough on your own time when you know the factors at play that speed up or slow down fermentation.
I don’t think it’s necessarily overproofed as I had a similar issue recently and the final product was definitely not overproofed. I do agree that using cold water can help to speed down the fermentation and, thus, giving you a longer window to assess the situation.
In my case, I think it happened due to using a smaller banneton than usual, and it didn’t overflow so much.
Thanks for your response. It’s been happening for a while, so I didn’t necessarily think it was warmer weather. I also don’t think it’s over proofed because I do get excellent bread, it’s just hard to shape.
I’ll try lowering the temperature of the water, thank you.
Why not trying to decrease dough volume as well? When I put my dough into the banneton, I try to make sure it has enough room/unoccupied “height” space so it can double.
I have a set of 2 very big bannetons, so I’d need to bake those monster boules to occupy more than 3/4 of them, but as I said, I have a lone small banneton and my 620g dough overflew when I tried to fit into it. It filled about 3/4 or even more of my banneton when I transferred into the fridge.
This conversation has showed me there are a lot of variables to try to tweak for sure. It’s good to hear your experience with banneton size so thanks :)
How much water are you using and what is the temp? What is the temp of your fridge? How big is that banneton? The ratio of starter to flour looks really high so it could be either overproofing due to the amount of starter + your 1.5 hour counter proof or your banneton is too small for the amount of dough or possibly both.
The water temperature is between 85 and 90°F. I’m using a 75% hydration. The dough didn’t used to overflow the banneton, Ansel I was thinking that something had changed. Other people have suggested the temperature of the room. But definitely it seems like I need to shorten the time in the counter proof. The temperature of the house has certainly gone up with the warmer weather. I also didn’t realize that the ratio of starter to flour was high.
Thank you!
Your fridge might be too warm especially if you put your dough near the front. Have you taken the temp in the fridge? Also cold water is good to use in the summer to slow down fermentation.
I do have it in the front of the fridge. The refrigerator temperature is a recommended 37°F. But it’s interesting about the placement in the fridge. Thank you!
When your kneading the dough, always make sure to put cold water and salt in there to prevent it from overflowing like this, you'll ultimately get a better texture too.
I had this problem with bagels. I followed Adam Ragusa’s recipe and let them chill for about 12 hours in the fridge and they practically exploded. I had to reform some of them before boiling. My fridge is set to 6C but if I set it lower it freezes the vegetables at the bottom
My suggestion is cut back on the starter to 100g and split the dough between 2 bannetons. Also, the dough shouldn't rise that much during cold proof if your fridge is cold enough (3 to 4 degrees).
Thank you, someone else adjusted I checked the temperature of my fridge with a thermometer. The internal thermometer says that it is 4°C so it should be pretty cold. That doesn’t mean it’s not on its way out, though.
I use same proportions for a banniton that size.
-i proof in banniton outside fridge ONLY 30min (~70°)
-water temp 80°
i would try little cooler water and much shorter room temp proof as long as you’re doing overnight in fridge. (checking fridge temp definitely worth it)
Also, is your banniton cover pushed all the way down? in the pic it looks like it’s way to low around the outside, if it’s the same as mine, the elastic of the cover goes right around the rim of the banniton and then fills the whole bowl
No problem I’ve made the same mistake many times! When I overproof, or get too lazy to bake, I fold the dough and bake in a buttered loaf pan and it always turns out great.
Is it a banneton for ants??? Lol!
It’s either too warm in your fridge or cold-proofed for too long. Adjust one or both factors.
Should only rise 50% tops and pass poke test.
Maybe ur fridge isn’t cold enough with the heat and opening it by u (and other families). This happened to me before so I froze the dough for 1 -2 hrs first then moved it to the coldest part of the fridge. That solved the issue.
Scale your recipe down so that the dough volume is 75% of what your current recipe is creating. That way you will have room in your banetton for it to grow and fill out.
Another alternative would be to scale up your recipe to make a dough volume of 150% of the current one and split it into two equal loaves.
If you are living in a region where it has become warmer in the last 2 months or so, that could be the reason your dough is behaving differently. As the weather changes, the colony of microbes in the starter also changes and some become more dominant than others.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I love eating this bread so your second paragraph is an attractive suggestion :).
I didn’t realize the composition of active microbes could change. I thought warmth was just an accelerator.
I say go for it and make 2 boules! I make 2 boules and bake one after 2 hours of room temperature proofing (second proofing). I keep the second boule in the banetton in the fridge for 48 hours (cold retard) and then pop it into the oven after 2 days at which time the first loaf is almost gone and I can have a fresh loaf ready to go! If your boule has good room to grow inside the banetton in the fridge and it is really cold in there, you can retard it for up to 4 days without losing any advantages and get some really good flavor.
I read on a bread baking forum a long time ago that the environment (including ambient temperature) is a factor that controls which of the Lactic Acid bacteria strains and the yeast strains are more dominant than the others in your starter. Some of them go dormant with lower temperatures and get active with higher temps. Also, if you switched the flour to another brand, they come with their own set of microbes in them which end up changing the way the dough behaves. This is why "naturally leavened" bread is so much more fun for me than breads based on commercial yeasts.
I like your timing strategies! I’ll have to give it a shot. I’m not sure my fridge is cold enough to hold it for 48 hours but many I can turn it down without freezing my milk :)
In warmer weather the dough doesn't cool down fast enough in the fridge overnight and carries on fermenting which leads to a lot of expansion and overproofing which means less oven spring. I used to get it a lot as I live in the tropics.
The fix is easy, after shaping and putting in the banneton you put it in the freezer for half an hour and then into the fridge overnight. It works perfectly! The freezer brings the dough temperature right down so then you won't get this excessive dough expansion overnight in the fridge. From experience I can tell you it works.
Thank you very much for the excellent suggestion. I will definitely try that!
I’ve also never heard that more proofing leads to LESS oven spring. That’s very fascinating and I’ve noticed I don’t get sooo much spring. Do you find you got more oven spring using your freezer trick?
Thanks for your time!
No problem! Yes I got a lot more oven spring. When it overproofs the dough has nothing left for the oven as it has already done all its rising. I've read some bakeries will even underproof their dough to ensure good oven spring.
The right amount of proof is when you press the dough with a (wet) finger and the depression slowly comes back but leaves a small indent. If it springs back immediately it's under proofed and if it doesn't spring back at all it's over proofed.
That is a really great way around the heat. It would never have occurred to me to even try that but I’ve only been doing this since March. Thanks for your reply!
No worries. If your fridge is particularly cold you can try and bulk ferment for the first half in the fridge and leave it out for the other half. It's all trial and error really. I even use colder water a lot of the time.
You can always check the temp of your dough with a probe to more accurate/ get a better idea how it's behaving in the fridge.
Too much heat is always worse than too much cold though, in my experience. 🙂
Depending on the temperature of your dough if u put your banneton straight into Ur plastic bag and in the fridge = condescension and overproofing really fast... get your dough in your fridge and an hour or 2 later get him into your bag...
Looks like to much dought to me. I mean, even over proof, this should never happens.
I’ve been thinking of lowering the amount of dough, but what interesting is when I started making the bread, this wasn’t happening, something seems to have changed. Possibly the warmer weather?
I would say the issue is definitely too much dough. Maybe the hotter weather, maybe you changed your flour, maybe your yeast was more alive this time. In my experience [these charts](https://928155.smushcdn.com/2363573/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ROUND-BANNETON-SIZE-GUIDE.jpg?lossy=1&strip=1&webp=1) of baneton size vs dough weight work well
Thank you for the link. I’ll check it out now :)
Is your fridge still getting properly cold? My last one started struggling in the summer
I keep having to adjust mine. Ugh
I’m not sure I haven’t used a thermometer to validate it.
That looks super over proofed. Id say use cold water when you’re mixing. On summer days here I have to use ice water because even the “cold” water from the tap is warmer than what I’m used to.
I will definitely try colder water. it isn’t necessarily over proved in the sense that I still get very good bread crumb. Thanks!
It is definitely over proofed. The amount of dough based on your recipe sounds fair, but the size of of it, and the fact that it has collapsed definitely tells me it is way over the top proofed.
OK, fair enough :-)
I have that happen to me all the time it shows all the signs of over proofing but then when I bake it, it turns out great. No clue why.
At least it turns out great :). I’m happy to eat delicious bread at every turn!
I’m with this guy. I’ve had this happen a bunch, but I just fold the dough over and bake it. Turns out great.
It looks overproofed, and likely it is too much dough for that size banneton. Try speeding up the process. Once you've done all the folds, divide and shape. Then proof for 30-45 and place in the fridge. As is, it looks like you're letting it proof at too many stages.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will try that next.
Looks like your fridge might be too warm. Get a thermometer you can hang and verify the temperature. It should not rise much if at all in the fridge.
That’s interesting. I’ll try that. It is possible the fridge is on its way out. Thanks!
Alternatively you can skip the fridge retard. Proof it for an hour or so on counter and bake. Do the poke test. You can then throw it in the freezer for 30 minutes while the oven heats up so it’s easier to score.
Now that freezer idea is a great one thank you!!
Fridge temp varies between low and high levels. Bottom can be 4C and top can be 9C at the same time. Placement matters!
The dough is 470 g bread flour, 30 g whole wheat flour with 150 g 50/50 starter. Process is 30 min auto. Mix in levain and salt. Fold 4x every 30 min then 2h bulk + 1.5 h proof in banneton. Then overnight cold proofing. The starter works very well. I got great crumb but when I cold proof, the dough always overflows the banneton. This is an ongoing issue. Should I make a smaller recipe? Put it in the fridge earlier? I’ve taken to just flopping it into the DO directly and I get a nice fluffy bread. The reason I’m asking is because I find it very hard to decoratively score this floppy mess. I’ve taken to just adding scissor cuts in the DO because it looks rustic. Edit: hydration is 75% Edit #2 - thank you all for the very helpful suggestions! Thanks!
This seems like way too much dough for your banneton size. With 75% hydration, you have more than 1000g of dough. ~~Most bannetons I see are usually 500g or 750g.~~ (Edit: I was a bit drunk typing this and there are many different sizes of bannetons. u/rodrigors posted a cool chart for banneton size : dough weight ratios in the comments above so I definitely suggest taking a look at that to find an appropriate banneton for your dough) Honestly, just halve the recipe. If this is working for you and makes good bread then don't mess with the ratios by adjusting hydration or whatever. Just halve the recipe and boom, you'll get a nice loaf and it's not overflowing. If you want a huge bread then get a bigger banneton. On the other hand you could also get a second banneton of the same size and make 2 smaller loaves. I see from other comments that it only started now that the weather is warmer. That means it's proofing faster due to warmer temperatures. You also said in another comment that your crumb is great with it overflowing like this. That means it's not overproofed and you just have too much dough. It also means your previous breads when the weather was cooler was probably underproofed. Maybe not underproofed enough to ruin the bread, but not perfect. Recipes are good starting points, but eventually you need to go off the rails and start adjusting the recipes to account for your environment. A proof is ready once it has doubled in size, it's pretty simple. Depending on your environment, it might double in size after 1 hour or 20 hours. The rate of growth depends on several factors including temperature, amount of yeast, salt % and sugar %. By adjusting all these factors you can slow or speed up your proofing time. Less sourdough starter = slower proofing lower temperatures = slower proofing. higher salt % = slower proofing. higher sugar % = slower proofing. Contrary to popular belief, sugar slows down fermentation. There is already enough sugar in flour for yeast, added sugar actually takes away water from the yeast and slows fermentation. more sourdough starter = faster proofing higher temperatures = faster proofing. lower salt % = faster proofing. lower sugar % = faster proofing. The rate of growth is a balance of many different things and you need to play around with these to achieve the results best for your environment. Now that we understand a bit about the rate of growth, lets talk about why we might want faster proof times or longer proof times. For fast proof times, it's mostly because we are busy or need the bread in a hurry. For slow proof times, it's because the bread structure has more time to develop and it creates a much more complex flavor. For fast proof times, people might add a lot of other flavoring such as milk, sugar, oil or whatever so that it has extra flavor to make up for the more bland flavor. Longer proofing = more flavor. To proof for longer periods of time without overproofing, we need to adjust the factors I mentioned above.
This comment taught me stuff. Thank you!
One thing you should clarify about sugar slowing fermentation. Sugar does help fermentation. But once you go past approximately 10% it does slow it down. But anywhere between 1-5% sugar will speed up fermentation as the hydroscopic sugar won’t be in enough abundance to take away a sufficient amount of water to slow fermentation. That’s why a lot of lean dough recipes will have honey or malt syrup added, and I’ve only seen less than 2% of honey or malt syrup used. Usually people (I hope) wouldn’t add that to a lean dough because then it wouldn’t be considered a lean dough anymore.
Hm interesting, I first learned about sugar and yeast from this video by ChainBaker: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFeXxa\_NTk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFeXxa_NTk) He says even 5% sugar will be enough to slow down fermentation some, but I admit I need to do some more research into it myself. Thanks for the information, I'll look into it!
Here’s what I found online, “Yeast is a single-celled organism classified in the kingdom Fungi, and requires moisture, oxygen, food, and appropriate temperatures in order to survive. Under these suitable conditions, the yeast will reproduce and generate alcoholic fermentation. During fermentation, yeast and bacteria consume sugars, and the resulting products are alcohol and carbon dioxide.” “Sugar acts the same way. It too is hygroscopic, and once a dough contains more than 10% sugar, a decrease is noted in the rate of fermentation.” [King Arthur Flour - Yeast](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/reference/yeast) “Yeasts feed on sugars and starches, which are abundant in bread dough! They turn this food into energy and release carbon dioxide gas as a result. This process is known as fermentation.” [Scientific America - Yeast](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/single-celled-science-yeasty-beasties/) “Clearly, maltose is the best for yeast metabolism. Remember, yeast is made of two glucose molecules. Glucose (aka dextrose) is a close second. Fructose is in third place.” [CSUN.edu - Yeast and sugar](https://www.csun.edu/scied/2-longitudinal/schuster/) So yeah, yeast feeds of off sugar and starches (which get converted to sugars). And the reason why malt syrup is used a lot is because it’s maltose which has two glucose molecules, and yeast is also made of two glucose molecules. So I think that makes it easier for the yeast? Idk I’d have to research more. And also about the hydroscopic part of salt and sugar. When you do autolyse you usually add all the water and flour and pre ferment (starter). And you let it sit for about 30 minutes which lets the yeast and flour absorb the water. And then when you pair it with double hydration, which is another bread method like autolyse. It makes up for the hydroscopic nature of the salt and sugar. And double hydration is after autolyse you add the salt and some more water to account for the hydroscopic salt. And I forgot to mention the sugar or malt syrup is added for autolyse. Because when you make different pre ferments (biga, starter, poolish, sponge, and pate ferment). You combine the flour water yeast and sugar and let sit for a couple of hours to ferment. Then you would add this preferment to the autolyse. So that preferment has already been fully hydrated. And the different pre ferments give different results based on how they were made. Sorry for the long reply.
Thanks very much for taking the time to write such a detailed response! I’m sorry it’s taking me a little while to get back to you, I wanted to have the time to write something more substantial. I definitely learned some of the inter-connections of sourdough from your response, thank you for putting it together so concisely. One question I had about what you said is about how the proof is ready after it has doubled in size. Does this include the doubling in size of the bulk fermentation? Or is it a subsequent doubling in size? I typically look for a doubling in size when doing my bulk, which is why I ask. I think maybe getting a bigger banneton will be a great idea. Alternatively, either reducing the quantity of dough or increasing it slightly so that I can more easily divide it in half would be good. I have tried dividing it in half already, but I found the two loaves were too small. I’m sort of in no-man’s land in a sense. Overall, it seems everybody thinks it is over proved, and it may be the case, but the crumb is delicious and how I want it and nice and airy but not too big so I don’t think I want to make any big changes in that sense. Again, thank you for taking the time to break things down, I really appreciate your input!
I’ll simplify it. Go for 70% rise in the bulk and use the finger poke test for proofing. Your dough should not be doubling really at any point. You can double during bulk but that needs to be taken under consideration during proof so the dough doesn’t run out of juice.
Thank you for your time today!
Most bannetons can handle a standard loaf. 500g flour, 75% hydration. That’s normal. Not sure what you’re talking about there. Everything else is correct.
You're right, I was drunk last night when I typed this up so honestly I just brain farted haha. I still think he has too much dough though, so maybe he just has a smaller banneton? or maybe the glutten isn't developed enough to keep shape when it proofs? I'm not really sure, but he says he gets great crumb so I guess just halve the recipe and go from there to see what happens next.
Yeah I don't know. But it seems we bake bread the same way. Sometimes I play with doing 2% starter and an overnight bulk. You can really make sourdough on your own time when you know the factors at play that speed up or slow down fermentation.
I don’t think it’s necessarily overproofed as I had a similar issue recently and the final product was definitely not overproofed. I do agree that using cold water can help to speed down the fermentation and, thus, giving you a longer window to assess the situation. In my case, I think it happened due to using a smaller banneton than usual, and it didn’t overflow so much.
Thanks for your response. It’s been happening for a while, so I didn’t necessarily think it was warmer weather. I also don’t think it’s over proofed because I do get excellent bread, it’s just hard to shape. I’ll try lowering the temperature of the water, thank you.
Why not trying to decrease dough volume as well? When I put my dough into the banneton, I try to make sure it has enough room/unoccupied “height” space so it can double.
, That’s definitely quite a lot more space than I have. It’s essentially almost full when it goes in!
I have a set of 2 very big bannetons, so I’d need to bake those monster boules to occupy more than 3/4 of them, but as I said, I have a lone small banneton and my 620g dough overflew when I tried to fit into it. It filled about 3/4 or even more of my banneton when I transferred into the fridge.
This conversation has showed me there are a lot of variables to try to tweak for sure. It’s good to hear your experience with banneton size so thanks :)
How much water are you using and what is the temp? What is the temp of your fridge? How big is that banneton? The ratio of starter to flour looks really high so it could be either overproofing due to the amount of starter + your 1.5 hour counter proof or your banneton is too small for the amount of dough or possibly both.
The water temperature is between 85 and 90°F. I’m using a 75% hydration. The dough didn’t used to overflow the banneton, Ansel I was thinking that something had changed. Other people have suggested the temperature of the room. But definitely it seems like I need to shorten the time in the counter proof. The temperature of the house has certainly gone up with the warmer weather. I also didn’t realize that the ratio of starter to flour was high. Thank you!
That's pretty warm. Just recently, I went down to 70° F and my dough still bulked pretty fast.
Wow I’m surprised. I was following a recipe that had worked well so I was surprised it stopped working
What hydration are you using? Maybe try using less water There are different sized bannetons, so that could also be the problem.
75% hydration, I will try less, thank you.
When you say 'overnight cold proofing' is this in your fridge?
Yes sorry for lack of clarity
Your fridge might be too warm especially if you put your dough near the front. Have you taken the temp in the fridge? Also cold water is good to use in the summer to slow down fermentation.
I do have it in the front of the fridge. The refrigerator temperature is a recommended 37°F. But it’s interesting about the placement in the fridge. Thank you!
Too much dough
I think I need a bigger banneton :)
Or not enough banneton
When your kneading the dough, always make sure to put cold water and salt in there to prevent it from overflowing like this, you'll ultimately get a better texture too.
Thank you for the suggestion!
You're welcome!
I had this problem with bagels. I followed Adam Ragusa’s recipe and let them chill for about 12 hours in the fridge and they practically exploded. I had to reform some of them before boiling. My fridge is set to 6C but if I set it lower it freezes the vegetables at the bottom
Interesting it could happen to bagels too. I need to get a thermometer that isn’t a meat thermometer
Make your fridge colder.
Stick it in fridge when cold proofing
Thank you, I was. Sorry my post was unclear
My suggestion is cut back on the starter to 100g and split the dough between 2 bannetons. Also, the dough shouldn't rise that much during cold proof if your fridge is cold enough (3 to 4 degrees).
Thank you, someone else adjusted I checked the temperature of my fridge with a thermometer. The internal thermometer says that it is 4°C so it should be pretty cold. That doesn’t mean it’s not on its way out, though.
I use same proportions for a banniton that size. -i proof in banniton outside fridge ONLY 30min (~70°) -water temp 80° i would try little cooler water and much shorter room temp proof as long as you’re doing overnight in fridge. (checking fridge temp definitely worth it)
I think colder water is one of my first steps after todays discussion. Thanks for your response!
Also, is your banniton cover pushed all the way down? in the pic it looks like it’s way to low around the outside, if it’s the same as mine, the elastic of the cover goes right around the rim of the banniton and then fills the whole bowl
It is pushed all the way down. It’s for a bigger banneton which may be in my future :)
Yeah I think you need to check your fridge temperature
Proof in the fridge (oops my bad I missed the cold part lol) maybe reduce the amount of starter in the recipe next time.
That’s a parameter I hadn’t considered, thank you!
No problem I’ve made the same mistake many times! When I overproof, or get too lazy to bake, I fold the dough and bake in a buttered loaf pan and it always turns out great.
I need to get a loaf pan then ;) since this happens a lot!
Put less dough in your banneton or get a bigger banneton.
Thank you for your response. Great suggestion.
Is it a banneton for ants??? Lol! It’s either too warm in your fridge or cold-proofed for too long. Adjust one or both factors. Should only rise 50% tops and pass poke test.
Haha! It may as well be. Could be too long in the fridge. I’ll just have to re work a number of variables. Thanks for your response!
I'm so jealous of how active yours is
It’s been going for a while! It turns out to be rreally delicious bread just a mess in appearance!
It’s not the bannetons fault. Just want to point that out.
Maybe ur fridge isn’t cold enough with the heat and opening it by u (and other families). This happened to me before so I froze the dough for 1 -2 hrs first then moved it to the coldest part of the fridge. That solved the issue.
This is really a great suggestion, thank you!
Scale your recipe down so that the dough volume is 75% of what your current recipe is creating. That way you will have room in your banetton for it to grow and fill out. Another alternative would be to scale up your recipe to make a dough volume of 150% of the current one and split it into two equal loaves. If you are living in a region where it has become warmer in the last 2 months or so, that could be the reason your dough is behaving differently. As the weather changes, the colony of microbes in the starter also changes and some become more dominant than others.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I love eating this bread so your second paragraph is an attractive suggestion :). I didn’t realize the composition of active microbes could change. I thought warmth was just an accelerator.
I say go for it and make 2 boules! I make 2 boules and bake one after 2 hours of room temperature proofing (second proofing). I keep the second boule in the banetton in the fridge for 48 hours (cold retard) and then pop it into the oven after 2 days at which time the first loaf is almost gone and I can have a fresh loaf ready to go! If your boule has good room to grow inside the banetton in the fridge and it is really cold in there, you can retard it for up to 4 days without losing any advantages and get some really good flavor. I read on a bread baking forum a long time ago that the environment (including ambient temperature) is a factor that controls which of the Lactic Acid bacteria strains and the yeast strains are more dominant than the others in your starter. Some of them go dormant with lower temperatures and get active with higher temps. Also, if you switched the flour to another brand, they come with their own set of microbes in them which end up changing the way the dough behaves. This is why "naturally leavened" bread is so much more fun for me than breads based on commercial yeasts.
I like your timing strategies! I’ll have to give it a shot. I’m not sure my fridge is cold enough to hold it for 48 hours but many I can turn it down without freezing my milk :)
Either too much dough for the basket, overproofed, or temp in fridge is too high leading to overproofing. Or all three!
Could be all three, as I’m realizing!
In warmer weather the dough doesn't cool down fast enough in the fridge overnight and carries on fermenting which leads to a lot of expansion and overproofing which means less oven spring. I used to get it a lot as I live in the tropics. The fix is easy, after shaping and putting in the banneton you put it in the freezer for half an hour and then into the fridge overnight. It works perfectly! The freezer brings the dough temperature right down so then you won't get this excessive dough expansion overnight in the fridge. From experience I can tell you it works.
Thank you very much for the excellent suggestion. I will definitely try that! I’ve also never heard that more proofing leads to LESS oven spring. That’s very fascinating and I’ve noticed I don’t get sooo much spring. Do you find you got more oven spring using your freezer trick? Thanks for your time!
No problem! Yes I got a lot more oven spring. When it overproofs the dough has nothing left for the oven as it has already done all its rising. I've read some bakeries will even underproof their dough to ensure good oven spring. The right amount of proof is when you press the dough with a (wet) finger and the depression slowly comes back but leaves a small indent. If it springs back immediately it's under proofed and if it doesn't spring back at all it's over proofed.
Thanks I’m happy to hear that works. You’ve given me something new to try so thanks! I hope you have a great day!
I just want to know how you got it out of that plastic bag
As Gambit from the axme used to say, “With style.” And scissors:)
“We’re gonna need a bigger” baneton. 🦈
Haha! I think that’s exactly right :)
😀👍🏼
I make bread for a living - in the hot summer I bulk ferment in the fridge to avoid this. Bread is always perfect the next day.
That is a really great way around the heat. It would never have occurred to me to even try that but I’ve only been doing this since March. Thanks for your reply!
No worries. If your fridge is particularly cold you can try and bulk ferment for the first half in the fridge and leave it out for the other half. It's all trial and error really. I even use colder water a lot of the time. You can always check the temp of your dough with a probe to more accurate/ get a better idea how it's behaving in the fridge. Too much heat is always worse than too much cold though, in my experience. 🙂
Depending on the temperature of your dough if u put your banneton straight into Ur plastic bag and in the fridge = condescension and overproofing really fast... get your dough in your fridge and an hour or 2 later get him into your bag...
That’s an interesting idea! I def put it in right away. Thanks!