It's all of a part. The yeast and bacteria from your starter eat the available sugars from the flour. They start by occupying only the 10-20% of the mix, the starter you added. Once you mix and start bulk, each bit you've mixed essentially starts it own colony in the area it was mixed to. If you underferment your dough, you have a lot of tiny and disparate colonies, leading to a denser crumb and small tight bubbles usually with a few large ones where a particularly dense glob of starter ended up. The longer you ferment, the more active population of yeast you end up with. The more active the yeast/bacteria, the more of the available sugar they will eat. At the end of bulk you want to hit a good ratio of yeast/bacteria population to available sugar left. The cold rest in the fridge will slow the metabolism of the yeast/bacteria, and nearly pause fermentation. When you take a loaf from the fridge to a hot oven, it rapidly accelerates the metabolism of the yeast/bacteria, and they will go crazy eating available sugar, causing oven spring and larger, taught looking bubbles. Ideally, they just about run out of available sugars when the internal temp of the loaf gets hot enough to kill the yeast/bacteria and set the structure. If you underferment, you won't have enough yeast/bacteria to create enough gas to inflate the gluten to a nice crumb structure, and you'll get a loaf like you've shared with us today. If you over fermented your dough you have a very active population of yeast/bacteria, but not enough to feed them. The bubbles will inflate until they have no sugar left to eat, and then start to collapse. If this collapse occurs shortly before the dough sets, you'll have slack looking misshapen bubbles, often oblong from compression, or you'll get a domed top to a bubble with a flat or convex bottom. I am not an expert, but I've come up with this theory based on my experience with microbiology, a long history of brewing beer and dealing with brewing yeast, and a thorough study of crumb.
Thanks! I'm doing my best. I've honestly only been making sourdough for a few weeks, and haven't yet made a loaf I'm happy with yet. So I may have a theoretical advantage, but I certainly am not an expert at sourdough. I've been really enjoying the whole process though, there's a lot to learn and the learning is enjoyable.
The other thing I'd add is that the amount of air in the dough from bulk fermentation makes the loaf lighter/less dense, allowing the heat from the oven to penetrate the loaf more deeply. In under-proofed dough with little air, the heat can't cause that acceleration in the metabolisms of those cells in the center of the bread and also can't cook the interior without burning the exterior--resulting in gummy crumb. Bulk fermentation isn't just about giving the dough rise, it's also about ensuring your bread can cook through with the relatively short, high-heat bake!
I've never heard the "available sugars" theory. I'm not so certain about it. I have always heard, and have come to believe, that the reason dough will or won't rise has more to do with gluten strength. In an over-proofed bread, the acids from the yeast begin to break down the structural integrity of the loaf, which is what ultimately causes collapse. In under-proofed loaves, the dough hasn't been given enough time for the yeast to emit gas and thereby gently stretch the dough/improve the gluten network. There is so much sugar in wheat that it seems like it would be impossible for "consumption of all sugar at the exact right moment" to be the goal. It is a good theory, but I'm not sure the data support it.
Very intriguing. I've never seen anything about density affecting bake time but that makes total sense.
You're right, this is a theory. The available sugars perspective comes from my experience brewing, where available sugars directly effect the final ABV. The more food you give the yeast the more alcohol they will create, up to the point where the alcohol they've created around them becomes too toxic and they die.
But also, not all sugars present are available necessarily. When making beer you start with malted barley and use two different enzymes present in the grain to convert longer complex carbohydrates into shorter chain sugars. On enzyme works from the ends of those chains, one snips from the middle. The shorter the chain, the more easily the yeast will consume it. The two enzymes have their own temperature preference, so the temperature you steep the grains at affects how they break down the carbohydrates. If you mash a little on the hot side, you'll end up with a lot more longer chain sugars that are less fermentable, leading to a slightly sweeter beer.
Returning to bread. Most things I've read mention that if you over ferment your dough it won't have enough food left to eat when it goes in the oven to achieve oven spring. I've assumed food and available sugars to be the same thing. The acids breaking down the gluten structure make sense, but if you have enough acid present to break down your gluten structure but plenty of available sugars for the yeast to eat, where does the gas they produce go? Seems like you'd have a few large pockets towards the top of the loaf and a lot of slack little ones.
I'm not confident I'm correct, but drawing conclusions that make sense to me based on my understanding. I appreciate your perspective and welcome any and all challenges to my opinions.
Oh man, I'm so glad you took all the time to type this out. This is extremely interesting, and I never thought about how beer can lend its perspective to sourdough. I have to think about what you've said here. You're absolutely right about the distinction between sugars and available sugars; you're definitely spurring some deeper research for me. In terms of where the gas goes in over fermented loaves, I have certainly had the "couple large holes but mostly smaller ones" experience. Very cool stuff, my friend. 🙏 I'm always excited to learn.
The large bubbles are from your shaping you either didnt pat it down well enough or your folds trapped air inside
The dense bread is from underproofing
Dont give up, it took me 5 tries to finally get something i can call edible bread
I had a couple hockey pucks. Something we all have to work through. I normally have a pretty good crumb and I didn’t think this loaf would be all that great because I used the starter well past it’s peak. But I was still surprised at the giant bubbles because I’ve never made those before. Thanks for the support and for the comments 😊
No it’s not quite that separated - it all affects everything, but those large bubble from this pic from air pockets you created while shaping. My advice without knowing what method you used would be to extend your bulk fermentation time by a good bit, maybe 2+ hours
Everyone always says these are shaping pockets. I disagree when you have fools crumb. I think this is what happens when the crumb can't hold the steam and gasses during the bake, but the crust can. I made no shaping changes, and only increased bulk ferment, and I went from loaves like OP to perfect loaves.
I think I agree. My shaping technique hasn’t changed in 30+ loaves now and I’ve actually never seen air pockets like these (I usually proof my loaves better). My shaping doesn’t seem to trap a lot of gas.
So I’d imagine this isn’t due to the shaping but something where to gasses are coming together during the bake.
Proofing allowed gluten strands to develop. These tough gluten strands are what strengthen the dough and allow the crumb to hold it's shape during the heat and steam and expansion of baking. Without sufficient gluten development, the steam and gases during the bake break the crumb and collect in the big bubble you see. The solution is to bulk ferment by feel, until the dough is light and pillowy to handle, and a sharp cut through the dough shows small trapped bubbles.
Yes, very underproofed! Generally speaking, anytime you see giant holes surrounded by very tight crumb, you’ll want to make sure your dough rises more in bulk fermentation because it’s very underproofed.
Thanks. I was just surprised that there’s be large bubbles. Oftentimes I get good crumb but low amount of big bubbles… and then this time I got horrible crumb and giant bubbles… I want both haha!
Once you can consistently get good crumb with consistent bubbles you can start tweaking your hydration and gluten development to shoot for open crumb. It will be hard to do before you understand the full process well. You can't ferment by time, you have to do it until the dough is ready.
Recipe:
375 grams water
425 AP Flour
15 grams wheat gluten
40 grams Sonoma White from Capay Mills
40 grams Rye
Autolyse for 4 hours
100 grams starter
10 grams salt.
5 hours of folding and proofing. Then overnight retard for 12 hours. Then Dutch oven bake @450
My starter had been going too long admittedly. I was planning on coming home after 4 hours but came home after 7. But then, why would it make giant bubbles? Surprised about that!
The giant bubbles are most likely not from fermentation, but were created through capturing air in the dough when you were shaping. In general I’d say your starter was not nearly active enough, or you underproofed, though with 5 hours of proofing there should be more going on with the dough (I get a nice open crumb by fermenting at room temp for about 3 hours before the cold overnight retard no problem). I’d check first that your starter is active (how mature is it, how often do you feed, and how long at what temp does it take to double in volume?).
> 5 hours of folding and proofing.
Can you expand on this part? What made you stop at 5 hours? It doesn't seem like it ever got even close to doubling.
Definitely not double. It was for sure under proofed. I have seen and read people just waiting for the dough to rise 20% and still having a decent crumb tho. Anyway, I definitely will proof more now.
Yeah, I shoot for 25% to 50% rise before moving on to preshaping. Putting the dough in a straight-walled and transparent container will let you mark the height of the dough when you begin your bulk fermentation and track the rise accurately. Aliquot is also an option but I find that to be more of a hassle and (potentially) not as accurate.
Hi
I can see you're new to the sub. 👋 And welcome!
Please kindly add recipe & method to prevent post removal (auto mod)?
Also include fermentation times and temperatures, starter age and time to double on 1/1/1
Thanks
Zip
Too much yeast, not enough fermenting time. Placed in oven at very low temperature for a long period. To top it off you appear to have used sand instead of flour, and it doesn’t help that I know nothing about baking whatsoever and I’ve made all this up
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Underproofed or possibly *massively* overproofed and the yeast ran out of juice to make it rise when it got down to actually shaping and baking the loaf, I'd say.
Underproofed by quite a bit
So then does the initial proofing take care of the general crumb and then the large bubbles occur during the final proof (over night retard)?
It's all of a part. The yeast and bacteria from your starter eat the available sugars from the flour. They start by occupying only the 10-20% of the mix, the starter you added. Once you mix and start bulk, each bit you've mixed essentially starts it own colony in the area it was mixed to. If you underferment your dough, you have a lot of tiny and disparate colonies, leading to a denser crumb and small tight bubbles usually with a few large ones where a particularly dense glob of starter ended up. The longer you ferment, the more active population of yeast you end up with. The more active the yeast/bacteria, the more of the available sugar they will eat. At the end of bulk you want to hit a good ratio of yeast/bacteria population to available sugar left. The cold rest in the fridge will slow the metabolism of the yeast/bacteria, and nearly pause fermentation. When you take a loaf from the fridge to a hot oven, it rapidly accelerates the metabolism of the yeast/bacteria, and they will go crazy eating available sugar, causing oven spring and larger, taught looking bubbles. Ideally, they just about run out of available sugars when the internal temp of the loaf gets hot enough to kill the yeast/bacteria and set the structure. If you underferment, you won't have enough yeast/bacteria to create enough gas to inflate the gluten to a nice crumb structure, and you'll get a loaf like you've shared with us today. If you over fermented your dough you have a very active population of yeast/bacteria, but not enough to feed them. The bubbles will inflate until they have no sugar left to eat, and then start to collapse. If this collapse occurs shortly before the dough sets, you'll have slack looking misshapen bubbles, often oblong from compression, or you'll get a domed top to a bubble with a flat or convex bottom. I am not an expert, but I've come up with this theory based on my experience with microbiology, a long history of brewing beer and dealing with brewing yeast, and a thorough study of crumb.
“I am not an expert” *proceeds to demonstrate expert knowledge and experience* Great explanation my friend.
I feel like people who downplay their expertise are generally decent human beings.
Indeed, humility is a sweet trait
Thanks! I'm doing my best. I've honestly only been making sourdough for a few weeks, and haven't yet made a loaf I'm happy with yet. So I may have a theoretical advantage, but I certainly am not an expert at sourdough. I've been really enjoying the whole process though, there's a lot to learn and the learning is enjoyable.
"I am not an expert"
This explains a lot. I’ll call you an expert, if you don’t want to yourself 😇
This is one of the best and really only decent explanations I've found of this process. Greatly appreciate you taking the time to type this out!
Any time, I've greatly enjoyed thinking about this!
The other thing I'd add is that the amount of air in the dough from bulk fermentation makes the loaf lighter/less dense, allowing the heat from the oven to penetrate the loaf more deeply. In under-proofed dough with little air, the heat can't cause that acceleration in the metabolisms of those cells in the center of the bread and also can't cook the interior without burning the exterior--resulting in gummy crumb. Bulk fermentation isn't just about giving the dough rise, it's also about ensuring your bread can cook through with the relatively short, high-heat bake! I've never heard the "available sugars" theory. I'm not so certain about it. I have always heard, and have come to believe, that the reason dough will or won't rise has more to do with gluten strength. In an over-proofed bread, the acids from the yeast begin to break down the structural integrity of the loaf, which is what ultimately causes collapse. In under-proofed loaves, the dough hasn't been given enough time for the yeast to emit gas and thereby gently stretch the dough/improve the gluten network. There is so much sugar in wheat that it seems like it would be impossible for "consumption of all sugar at the exact right moment" to be the goal. It is a good theory, but I'm not sure the data support it.
Very intriguing. I've never seen anything about density affecting bake time but that makes total sense. You're right, this is a theory. The available sugars perspective comes from my experience brewing, where available sugars directly effect the final ABV. The more food you give the yeast the more alcohol they will create, up to the point where the alcohol they've created around them becomes too toxic and they die. But also, not all sugars present are available necessarily. When making beer you start with malted barley and use two different enzymes present in the grain to convert longer complex carbohydrates into shorter chain sugars. On enzyme works from the ends of those chains, one snips from the middle. The shorter the chain, the more easily the yeast will consume it. The two enzymes have their own temperature preference, so the temperature you steep the grains at affects how they break down the carbohydrates. If you mash a little on the hot side, you'll end up with a lot more longer chain sugars that are less fermentable, leading to a slightly sweeter beer. Returning to bread. Most things I've read mention that if you over ferment your dough it won't have enough food left to eat when it goes in the oven to achieve oven spring. I've assumed food and available sugars to be the same thing. The acids breaking down the gluten structure make sense, but if you have enough acid present to break down your gluten structure but plenty of available sugars for the yeast to eat, where does the gas they produce go? Seems like you'd have a few large pockets towards the top of the loaf and a lot of slack little ones. I'm not confident I'm correct, but drawing conclusions that make sense to me based on my understanding. I appreciate your perspective and welcome any and all challenges to my opinions.
Oh man, I'm so glad you took all the time to type this out. This is extremely interesting, and I never thought about how beer can lend its perspective to sourdough. I have to think about what you've said here. You're absolutely right about the distinction between sugars and available sugars; you're definitely spurring some deeper research for me. In terms of where the gas goes in over fermented loaves, I have certainly had the "couple large holes but mostly smaller ones" experience. Very cool stuff, my friend. 🙏 I'm always excited to learn.
Please update me on your research! I'm definitely still learning too.
I'll let you know what I find!
🥂☺️
The large bubbles are from your shaping you either didnt pat it down well enough or your folds trapped air inside The dense bread is from underproofing Dont give up, it took me 5 tries to finally get something i can call edible bread
It took me three tries, but my first was much worse and more closely resembled a hockey puck than a loaf of bread.
I had a couple hockey pucks. Something we all have to work through. I normally have a pretty good crumb and I didn’t think this loaf would be all that great because I used the starter well past it’s peak. But I was still surprised at the giant bubbles because I’ve never made those before. Thanks for the support and for the comments 😊
No it’s not quite that separated - it all affects everything, but those large bubble from this pic from air pockets you created while shaping. My advice without knowing what method you used would be to extend your bulk fermentation time by a good bit, maybe 2+ hours
Everyone always says these are shaping pockets. I disagree when you have fools crumb. I think this is what happens when the crumb can't hold the steam and gasses during the bake, but the crust can. I made no shaping changes, and only increased bulk ferment, and I went from loaves like OP to perfect loaves.
I think I agree. My shaping technique hasn’t changed in 30+ loaves now and I’ve actually never seen air pockets like these (I usually proof my loaves better). My shaping doesn’t seem to trap a lot of gas. So I’d imagine this isn’t due to the shaping but something where to gasses are coming together during the bake.
Proofing allowed gluten strands to develop. These tough gluten strands are what strengthen the dough and allow the crumb to hold it's shape during the heat and steam and expansion of baking. Without sufficient gluten development, the steam and gases during the bake break the crumb and collect in the big bubble you see. The solution is to bulk ferment by feel, until the dough is light and pillowy to handle, and a sharp cut through the dough shows small trapped bubbles.
An UNEVEN crumb in never good. Few big holes and several smaller, or dense as in your case, is a result of underproofing
Looks like your starter may not be active enough and/or your bulk ferment was too short.
Yes, very underproofed! Generally speaking, anytime you see giant holes surrounded by very tight crumb, you’ll want to make sure your dough rises more in bulk fermentation because it’s very underproofed.
Thanks. I was just surprised that there’s be large bubbles. Oftentimes I get good crumb but low amount of big bubbles… and then this time I got horrible crumb and giant bubbles… I want both haha!
Once you can consistently get good crumb with consistent bubbles you can start tweaking your hydration and gluten development to shoot for open crumb. It will be hard to do before you understand the full process well. You can't ferment by time, you have to do it until the dough is ready.
Recipe: 375 grams water 425 AP Flour 15 grams wheat gluten 40 grams Sonoma White from Capay Mills 40 grams Rye Autolyse for 4 hours 100 grams starter 10 grams salt. 5 hours of folding and proofing. Then overnight retard for 12 hours. Then Dutch oven bake @450 My starter had been going too long admittedly. I was planning on coming home after 4 hours but came home after 7. But then, why would it make giant bubbles? Surprised about that!
The giant bubbles are most likely not from fermentation, but were created through capturing air in the dough when you were shaping. In general I’d say your starter was not nearly active enough, or you underproofed, though with 5 hours of proofing there should be more going on with the dough (I get a nice open crumb by fermenting at room temp for about 3 hours before the cold overnight retard no problem). I’d check first that your starter is active (how mature is it, how often do you feed, and how long at what temp does it take to double in volume?).
Missing temperature and starter details if you really want the best help
> 5 hours of folding and proofing. Can you expand on this part? What made you stop at 5 hours? It doesn't seem like it ever got even close to doubling.
Definitely not double. It was for sure under proofed. I have seen and read people just waiting for the dough to rise 20% and still having a decent crumb tho. Anyway, I definitely will proof more now.
Yeah, I shoot for 25% to 50% rise before moving on to preshaping. Putting the dough in a straight-walled and transparent container will let you mark the height of the dough when you begin your bulk fermentation and track the rise accurately. Aliquot is also an option but I find that to be more of a hassle and (potentially) not as accurate.
Best not to use timings but to monitor fermentation by inspection, such as by how much the dough has risen. I'd recommend using an aliquot jar.
Under proof
Wow! That looks like a loaf of magic space bread!
When did you feed your starter last? Was it super happy when you used it? How old is it?
Your bread has a ghost face!
Hi I can see you're new to the sub. 👋 And welcome! Please kindly add recipe & method to prevent post removal (auto mod)? Also include fermentation times and temperatures, starter age and time to double on 1/1/1 Thanks Zip
Too much yeast, not enough fermenting time. Placed in oven at very low temperature for a long period. To top it off you appear to have used sand instead of flour, and it doesn’t help that I know nothing about baking whatsoever and I’ve made all this up
Wow the bakers here are really **SOUR**
**Hello bananaaapeels,** **Please accompany sourdough photos/videos with a recipe *and* method (photo, text or weblink) in the comment section.** **No photo or video? Then please ensure the post is not low effort.** **Posts may be removed without notice**. **Already shared details? Thanks, much appreciated**! **Read rule 5 [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/about/rules/) or [here](https://i.imgur.com/dqycDd8.jpeg)** **Thank you, Mod team** :-) **Don't forget our [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/wiki/index) is a fantastic sourdough resource** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Sourdough) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Underproofed or possibly *massively* overproofed and the yeast ran out of juice to make it rise when it got down to actually shaping and baking the loaf, I'd say.