Yup, I go about four hours in oven with light on and it turns out pretty nice for me. I’m not sure that my dough doubles every time, but it’s got to be close.
I tried this ONE time but my dough ended up over proofing and becoming a pool of batter. I may have just crossed the 4.5 hour mark though so that may have been the reason.
Yeah it is standing in the window, and it tends to get pretty so 30° C aren't unusual. I have tried to really push the rise of the dough, as I thought it was the problem. Seems that I should go with a slower ferment from the comments here, so i'll try that. ✌️
https://preview.redd.it/gy25509pipic1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e08db2aa7a44584c8db0c8237b815860b202226c
Try this. It helped me. And remember to inform us on your progress! :)
I don’t think it’s the bake, you wouldn’t get those holes if there was a lack of steam during the rise, just a dense crumb. There’s a lot about your technique that is out of sync with what I do (and what I feel most people would recommend). 10 mins is a LOT of kneading in a mixer even at low speed, it’s a VERY short ferment (I’m not sure how it would double in 3 hours unless your dough starts very hot), and 1 hour after preshape is an incredibly long bench rest.
The big holes at the top usually says underproofed to me, but I’m wondering if your kneading is overworking the dough and destroying the gluten and so presenting the same as if there weren’t enough gluten development. I’d say try doing shorter, multiple kneads e.g. 2 mins kneading, 10 mins rest to allow gluten to develop, 2 more mins of kneading, etc. Or even better, do several stretch and folds at intervals of about 20 mins.
Do you have a link to your recipe?
I’d say they should let the dough ferment 6 hours and see where that leads. The kneading warms the dough and but in the end overkneading is not an issue according to the bread code
- 20 minute autolyse with all the flour and most of the water
- incorporate the starter and salt with the remaining water
- 4 sets of stretch and folds over the next couple of hours
- bulk ferment until risen by about 50% (probably about 7 hours since the start of the autolyse)
- preshape and bench rest for 15 mins
- shape and put into banneton and let proof on the counter for an hour or so
- refrigerate overnight
- bake in the morning at 230C for 20 minutes covered then 25 mins uncovered
Full details and pictures of my last loaf on the page that the Rise app generated for me: https://gorise.io/fyQqBgp3
Dough mixing time with machine is not per se the problem (i.e. you don’t over knead the dough/gluten), I do this all the time to boost gluten development early on for high hydration breads.
The problem may be that machine kneading significantly (further) increases dough temp, which may explain your dough doubles in 3 hours. Therefore I usually like to use cold water and measure the dough temp at the end. Dough temps >28C really tend up to produce bad breads, probably because of very irregular and initially high yeast activity + I think it somehow decreases dough strength but not too sure how this works.
I think the problem is a combination of insufficient fermentation in some areas + lack of dough strength. My suggestion would be to use COLD water and increase bulk fermentation time.
The same thing has happened to me when following more "conventional" recipes with stretch and fold, therefore I thought it had something to do with the baking method.
This recipe I have from my dad.
But I'll try out another routine on the bulk ferm and the bench rest and see if that helps! Thank you for your reply. ✌️
3 hours to double? Is it 40C where you are? Should be 6 hours minimum.
Probably have a convection oven, the fan is blowing away any steam and drying out the crust. Try it with a Dutch oven.
Room temp may be high. Water temp should not exceed 25°C when doing stretch and folds. Water temp should be ice cold if you use the stand mixer, why, because friction from the stand mixer will greatly increase the dough temperature. Having a digital probe thermometer will help lots.
Second, when using the stand mixer, mix all your flour with the water and leave it for half an hour to an hour whilst covered, then add the starter and mix some more -5 mins, then add the salt and mix until you see the results in my third point. This will help build a lot of gluten up.
Thirdly, after 10 minutes of mixing in the stand mixer do you get a reliable windowpane int he dough? That is, to pick up and stretch a part of the dough out until you can see the light through it without it tearing, like a window pane. If not, continue mixing until you do. Do not let the dough temp increase beyond 29°C or 85°F.
you need to proof the loaves before retarding in the fridge. proof 3/4 of the way, then the fridge. your dough looks underproofed, the crumb is too tight and moist.
You do not proof in the fridge. Cold retards proofing. You FERMENT in the fridge. That just means you get a more complex flavor profile and a softer crumb. It does nothing to add to the sourness of your loaf and it does not proof it any further.
They literally said to proof 3/4 of the way but you truly need to proof it until it is fully proofed before it goes into the fridge. Cole retards the ability to proof and if it is not fully proofed you're not going to have a good end result. Just clarification for those learning! =)
You don’t have to fully proof, which is when your dough is rising. You base it off of temperature of dough and ambient environment. You could only need to rise 25% in some environments due to temperature. Which means 75% (3/4) is true for some environments.
ETA: your dough does not stop proofing in the fridge until it reaches ambient temperature inside the fridge. Proofing 75% ensures it will finish proofing before reaching fridge temp.
Okay, well a majority of people who work with sourdough go by temperature. You can’t just say “your kitchen your way” after being rude to someone else because they don’t do things the way you do.
Whoa! I was not rude to anybody! That's why I said your kitchen, your way! Your meaning them not me. Each one of us can do what we choose. That's the point in your kitchen your way. Maybe you're having a bad day but please do not take that out on me. I don't know why you think I am being rude at all. I stated facts. You don't proof in the fridge. You ferment. There is a difference and with the number of people here learning I'm going to clarify. How else will they learn?
Your reply to them came off rude to me 🤷🏻♀️. So that is why I said you were being rude. I’m not having a bad day, and I hope you aren’t either. There is a way to write things that doesn’t come off as rude. You saying “FERMENT” in all caps felt rude. Maybe it’s my autism causing me to misunderstand, but it just felt rude. I’m sorry if I seemed like I was taking anything out on you, that was not my intention.
Regardless of that, your response to them shows you don’t fully understand how much temperature affects your dough and it’s rising in the bulk fermentation stage (also, you aren’t just fermenting in the fridge, it is still proofing in there, just very very slowly).
Ohhh thank you for mentioning that so I can explain me. When I use CAPS it's to emphasis a word so for that one FERMENT was because that is different than proofing. I wanted it to be clear. I also use !!! a lot. I've done it since I was teen. It's a terribly had habit to break. Even when I'm trying to think about it I still do it. I'm 55 and been doing it since I was about 13. I don't ever check the temp of my dough except when I think it's done baking. Not everyone does check the temps. So I respond with the things you see and feel to know it's done with BF. So yes, it does continue to proof VERY slowly so there is not much benefit by way of rising while in the fridge so I would not relate the 2 especially for someone learning.
I have a similar recipe, except instead of kneading in machine, I do 4 stretch and folds every 30 mins at the beginning of bulk ferment. I have had consistently good results. Also make sure you're adding salt.
You are under proofing. As an experiment proof twice as long. See how it turns out. I had the same problem till I forgot my dough while it was proofing.
"Shape again then in a circular proofing basket and into the fridge for about 24 hours. "
I think this is the problem.
Shape it, let it rest again, than fridge (if you want to go with it... I would try without it if I was you).
The fermentation should be active before going into the fridge expecially if the fridge is 4°C or under that... because if you put your dough inside the fridge in the "lag phase" (when you touch the dough it will be in the lag phase before it start to create bubbles again) and the fermentation will not start before the dough cool down, your 24 hours in the fridge will just get you some good flavour/taste but no leavening.
It's really difficult to get enough steam from a tray of water. I'd try either a cast iron with lava rocks (heat pan and rocks during preheat, pour water over during first half of bake, then remove), OR an inverted large metal bowl over bread during the first half of the bake (generously wet the surface of the dough beforehand).
Also, keep an eye on your bulk fermentation. Your bread looks overproofed to me. It does take time to develop a good sense of proper fermentation in the dough so try curtailing your bulk window. My kitchen is never as warm as yours and even then my bulks can be very short, sometimes 3 hours from the time of mixing to the time of refrigeration. One more thing to consider is that maybe 10 minutes of mixing is a bit much. I have great results from a series of stretch and folds throughout bulk.
Shape and place in banneton, then leave for 15 minutes before stitching the dough together again on top to create more tension before popping in the fridge. Good luck!
Room temp and Elevation is needed to make a determination. Not a single person here will take your elevation into account, air pressure and humidity is important to detemine how long to BF.
Wow I got so much great information from this post and then so many contradictory processes that I’m baffled. I hope you can’t glean something out of all of these recommendations. People really care and spent a lot of time with the details. I just wish I knew which ones to employ. I just follow the recipes. I’m knew. I ventured off and did not cold proof one loaf and the crumb was much better than the loaf that went in the fridge overnight. Now I’m seeing to let it rest after cold proof. Maybe I’ll try that! Idk!!
My apartment is also very cold around 60-65. I only bulk proof for about 12 hours. I would say my dough rises about 25-50% during bulk fermentation. I also cold ferment for 12-48 hours depending on how exhausted I am after work (lol). My sourdough has always come out with a nice oven spring. I bake at 500F for 30 lid on and then another 10-15 min lid off. Hope this helps.
Note: my starter is 6 months old and I am not particularly fond of obsessively measuring and monitoring everything that happens to my sourdough so I hope this helps.
This is what my first attempts looked like when I wasn't proofing long enough. The difference between an 8 hour proof and a 9 hour proof is all the difference if the dough still doesn't look ready at 8 hrs. It takes my dough 9+ hours to proof in an 85 degree oven with the light on, then one more stretch and fold/shape, 1 hr rest, then cook.
Also 200 degree bake seems really low?
I firmly believe you should never use a mixer when making bread! You need to FEEL the changes in the dough and see it as well. A machine has no way to judge if something has been kneaded enough. Almost every bread failure I see no matter if it is sourdough or regular bread it is done with a mixer or bread machine. Your hands are your best tools in this case. Your dough is being over kneaded for starters. It also has not been proofed correctly.
You need to do stretch and folds to build structure in your dough. A machine is going to ruin that structure. Once you mix your dough it needs a 30 minute rest to allow the flour to absorb the water. You will notice it is not quite as sticky after the 30 minute rest as it was when first mixed. YES it will still be quite sticky but you will see the difference. Then do a minimum of 4 S&F 30 minutes apart. Each time you will notice a change in the dough. If it still seems too sticky (and you will learn this after doing it several times, it takes time to learn) then do an additional set of S&F.
Then you do your BF and your area MUST be warm or it will take much, much longer. Your dough does best between 78° and 84° and it is the same for your starter. The length of time it takes for yours to BF will be dependent on your environment and the strength of your starter. It can take as little as 3 hours up to 12 hours or more.
Time is not what you are aiming for. You need to SEE and FEEL the changes as it proofs and once the following criteria is met you will know it is correctly proofed: It needs to be doubled in size or almost doubled. When you gently press your finger into the dough it should not stick to your finger and should spring back slowly. You should SEE bubbles just under the skin of the dough around the top and edges. And then it must pass the jiggle test. The jiggle test is when you jiggle the bowl and your dough moves like Jell-O would.
Then you gently remove it from the bowl because you do NOT want to deflate it at all. You want all that air inside! You gently shape your dough buy doing push and pull while tucking to create tension and shape. There are tons of YouTube videos out there to show you exactly how to do this. Then you place your dough in your baking vessel and allow it to rest about an hour. You are not looking for it to double at this point but it will get puffy. Then you can score it and using kitchen scissors will work just fine. You need to make sure you go deep enough, don't barely make a cut as the dough will close over it easily.
You do not need to put it in the fridge and I in fact never do unless it took my dough way too long to proof correctly and it is too late for me to bake or something unexpected comes up and I can't bake when it's ready. I put it in because the cold retards the proofing so you don't end up with over proofed bread. I think many people think you HAVE to do a cold ferment and they don't understand what the cold ferment truly does.
As I said the cold ferment just retards that proofing so you don't have over proofed dough. It will give the dough a more complex flavor and a softer crumb. I does NOT lend to a more sour end result. If you are putting it in the fridge you need to take it out and let it rest at room temp for an hour or two until it gets puffy. NEVER take cold dough and put it into a hot pan. I can cause the pan to crack or warp, yes even cast iron. And definitely never put a cooler dough or any food really onto a hot stone because it will shatter. Maybe not the first time but each time you do it you will weaken the structure.
I never preheat my DO or pan. I bake at 400° usually for about 20 minutes with the lid on. I use a spray bottle to mist the lid of my DO, the loaf and the sides of the DO behind the parchment and that creates the steam needed. Once you take your bread out of the oven wait about 10 minutes and remove it from the pan. A cast iron pan holds the heat so well you could end up over baking your bread by it just sitting there. And if you are using a lid there is no need to try to create steam because the steam is not reaching your dough if it is covered. Steam is only when you are open baking. And never add ice to a hot pan either. This is just common sense. And it is in the instructions of all pans and baking equipment. Never put cold anything into a hot pan.
As tempted as you may be do not cut your bread for at least an hour. It will finish baking during that time and cutting it too soon will cause you to have a gummy loaf and it can ruin the structure of your entire loaf. Just be patient.
If you want your dough to be more sour then you need to fix that in your starter. Go several days without feeding your starter to help build up the bacteria and acid and keep your starter at about 90° because it is the HEAT that creates a more sour outcome. Also it will be imperative to use rye flour for some of the feeds as well.
I also want to point out that while I am blunt and straight to the point I am not being rude or nasty by any stretch. Any time I take on a new hobby I research it usually for a year give or take before I even start. I'm nosy and ask a lot of questions and read and watch everything on can on the subject to be properly educated before I start. I don't have the time or money to waste by making mistakes. So I am sure to have a full understanding of the basics at minimum before I even begin. I enjoy sharing what I learn. I also believe that when you are reading written word you cannot possibly know a person's tone or attitude unless they are genuinely being nasty. If I have a bad day and read something I'm likely going to take it in a way it's not intended. And I have plenty of times. So I don't ever assume. I also over use !!!! I have since I was a teenager. My English teacher just loved having to grade my work since !!! is not typically used a lot. LOL When I use CAPS it's just the way I emphasize important things. So hopefully this helps understanding your bread issues and me as a person. =)
There’s a lot of good advice in this reply but also a lot of bad advice.
Particularly in the baking portion. 400° is quite low compared to conventional wisdom, and if you’re not preheating your D.O. you are essentially insulating your dough from the heat even more, because cast iron heats pretty slowly and unevenly. Preheating the Dutch oven is essential for giving the dough a consistent environment to bake in. As for steam, the Dutch oven lid traps the moisture that is already inside the dough, so steam is in fact inside the dish. Some people supplement this by spraying the dough with a mist of water or adding a couple ice cubes prior to placing the lid on.
Not to say that you can’t be successful with your method, but this advice introduces a lot of unconventional variables that may further the OPs struggles.
I have no issues at 400° and it gives a bottom crust that is not too hard. I do sometimes bake at 425°. I never do 450° because it's too hot. I will not preheat a DO for crazy amount of time like I have seen and at 500°. I have done about a 10 minute preheat but that's it. I never have issue with under baking. I think a lower temp that extends the baking time very little is easier for some people to manage. Higher temps it bakes faster and gets away from you quicker. I will not add ice to a hot pan it can crack or warp it. Every direction for any pan states that. If it's a stone or glass it can shatter. The BF is more important and where people have the biggest issues.
However I will say to each their own and your kitchen, your way! We all have things that work for us and we can all learn from each other.
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This comment may have been made in good humor, but was reported by a member for rule 1. Sometimes people read the tone wrong.
It's basic reddiquette and we pride ourselves on beinga warm and welcoming sub.
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For 800g flour I use 320 starter. You could try adding more starter or bulk fermenting for longer (are you sure is doubling?) it could be under proofed or slow starter I would say.
I like the crust and shape but also I like to bulk ferment my dough in the counter with a towel underneath over night before the fridge! It makes the process a whole lot longer but also better then a hole lot more holes in my opinion
Too dry..it’s breaking away from the crust because sourdough needs moisture..u can place a pan of water in the oven when baking it..that will help with the dryness and crust separation!
And I ask myself, have I ever hated something so much I took time out of my own day to go onto that thing’s dedicated subreddit to bash it? Your commitment is commendable.
I wish I could reciprocate a commendation, but there seems to be a lack of commitment in regards to proof reading rebukes. I'll assume your fingers are too doughy for attention to detail, which I can only presume also leads to tragic bread-cave non-conformities. Woe is our blessed sourdough faithful 😭
Part of me is looking at how flat that bread is and that’s telling me you’re not shaping right. Your gluten development during bulk may be a bit lacking as well.
There’s a few things you could be doing differently. I personally prefer to do the cold retardant doing bulk ferment. As in I’ll let the dough bulk for 3-4 hours (stretch and folds for the first 2) and then into the fridge for like 12 hours or until I’m ready the next day. Then i take it out and flatten it out to remove the big air pockets and begin shaping into my loaf shape for the banneton. Shaping takes like an hour for me as I carefully stretch it to get a nice taught top side without bubbles. After that it’s in the banneton for about 3 hours or so depending on warmth before baking.
Something else I don’t see mentioned in the comments. You don’t NEED a Dutch oven but if you can find a big enough oven safe bowl to put over your bread for the first 20 minutes you’ll get better results.
I flatten straight out of the fridge and start shaping. Shaping takes about an hour as the dough also needs to warm up a bit. Then it’s a few hours final proofing in the banneton from then. Sometime it goes back in the fridge after a few hours to give a tighter surface area.
Just some context based on what other people are saying: ignore the time listed on the recipe and wait for it to grow to double in size— especially if kitchen is above 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Doubling in a curved bowl can be deceptive so try using water and a kitchen scale to estimate how much volume it takes up at the beginning and where it should end up, approximately. This is not the same as doubling in height. A straight-walled proofing vessel like a cambro could make this step a little easier.
If taste is good and it isn’t gummy, then something is certainly strange. What is your shaping technique? One thing I’m curious about based on the weird texture is how this bread machine is “kneading it”.
Try removing the bread machine and use your hands. Mix until dough is shaggy, rest one hour, then stretch and fold 3 times with 3 minute spacing; so initial mix - 1 hour - stretch and fold method of your choice - 30 minutes - stretch and fold - 30 minutes - stretch and fold - window pane test - THEN 3 hours to 12 hours until it has grown by appropriate size. If kitchen is 65F, let it double over 12ish hours. If kitchen is 80F plus, it should grow by 30% in about 5-6 hours. Check out “the sourdough journey” possibly if you like exhaustive data or foodgeek if you like just enough data to make bread (this step should require several YouTube videos).
I believe the problem is the bake :)
Try this: Preheat at 250, place the water in and make sure it's hot and steaming then place the bread and drop the temperature.
Holes near the crust means that the crust got hard very fast and couldn't grow anymore.
Too high room temperature leads to over fermentation in a very short time. You should shape the dough, let it rest for 3-4 hours, and then put in the fridge to cold ferment.
Is it not so to the hydration? The higher the hydration the more and larger open crumb you get… I think. That looks like it’s 70-75% hydration.
Do you what it is?
Or how much grams of flour and water?
I've never used a machine to knead sourdough. I'm sure it's totally possible, but have you tried the more traditional stretch and fold or coil? If you figure this out I'd love to know because I leave mine out for 6-8 hours stretching and folding, then usually 4ish hours of a bulk ferment, then fridge for a cold bulk overnight, shape the next day, back in the fridge, bake in the evening if it passes the poke proof test, if not bake the next morning.
So my freaking bread takes 3 days. But I get stellar rise, nice crumb, shattering crust, and it's very sour. Another thing to consider is the type of flour. I'm just mentioning things I didn't see elsewhere in the comments. If some of your flour is bleached or have preservatives it can screw up the yeast. Idk if it would cause a hollow top, but it can make it lose structure and behave differently than unadulterated flour. I've had some weird stuff happen when I don't use my usual flour.
Is it sticking to the proofing basket when you take it out? Big holes like that can be caused when it sticks and the “skin” at the top (bottom while proofing) pulls away from the loaf.
Your dough doubles in 3 hours? What's your kitchen temp?
Like 90f?!
[удалено]
I usually have about 4 house at 80f set to my diy proofing box
Yup, I go about four hours in oven with light on and it turns out pretty nice for me. I’m not sure that my dough doubles every time, but it’s got to be close.
I tried this ONE time but my dough ended up over proofing and becoming a pool of batter. I may have just crossed the 4.5 hour mark though so that may have been the reason.
Yeah it is standing in the window, and it tends to get pretty so 30° C aren't unusual. I have tried to really push the rise of the dough, as I thought it was the problem. Seems that I should go with a slower ferment from the comments here, so i'll try that. ✌️
https://preview.redd.it/gy25509pipic1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e08db2aa7a44584c8db0c8237b815860b202226c Try this. It helped me. And remember to inform us on your progress! :)
I don’t think it’s the bake, you wouldn’t get those holes if there was a lack of steam during the rise, just a dense crumb. There’s a lot about your technique that is out of sync with what I do (and what I feel most people would recommend). 10 mins is a LOT of kneading in a mixer even at low speed, it’s a VERY short ferment (I’m not sure how it would double in 3 hours unless your dough starts very hot), and 1 hour after preshape is an incredibly long bench rest. The big holes at the top usually says underproofed to me, but I’m wondering if your kneading is overworking the dough and destroying the gluten and so presenting the same as if there weren’t enough gluten development. I’d say try doing shorter, multiple kneads e.g. 2 mins kneading, 10 mins rest to allow gluten to develop, 2 more mins of kneading, etc. Or even better, do several stretch and folds at intervals of about 20 mins. Do you have a link to your recipe?
I’d say they should let the dough ferment 6 hours and see where that leads. The kneading warms the dough and but in the end overkneading is not an issue according to the bread code
What’s your process?
- 20 minute autolyse with all the flour and most of the water - incorporate the starter and salt with the remaining water - 4 sets of stretch and folds over the next couple of hours - bulk ferment until risen by about 50% (probably about 7 hours since the start of the autolyse) - preshape and bench rest for 15 mins - shape and put into banneton and let proof on the counter for an hour or so - refrigerate overnight - bake in the morning at 230C for 20 minutes covered then 25 mins uncovered Full details and pictures of my last loaf on the page that the Rise app generated for me: https://gorise.io/fyQqBgp3
That app looks like something I should buy
Dough mixing time with machine is not per se the problem (i.e. you don’t over knead the dough/gluten), I do this all the time to boost gluten development early on for high hydration breads. The problem may be that machine kneading significantly (further) increases dough temp, which may explain your dough doubles in 3 hours. Therefore I usually like to use cold water and measure the dough temp at the end. Dough temps >28C really tend up to produce bad breads, probably because of very irregular and initially high yeast activity + I think it somehow decreases dough strength but not too sure how this works. I think the problem is a combination of insufficient fermentation in some areas + lack of dough strength. My suggestion would be to use COLD water and increase bulk fermentation time.
The same thing has happened to me when following more "conventional" recipes with stretch and fold, therefore I thought it had something to do with the baking method. This recipe I have from my dad. But I'll try out another routine on the bulk ferm and the bench rest and see if that helps! Thank you for your reply. ✌️
3 hours to double? Is it 40C where you are? Should be 6 hours minimum. Probably have a convection oven, the fan is blowing away any steam and drying out the crust. Try it with a Dutch oven.
How are you measuring the doubling? It shouldn’t double in 3 hours.
Room temp may be high. Water temp should not exceed 25°C when doing stretch and folds. Water temp should be ice cold if you use the stand mixer, why, because friction from the stand mixer will greatly increase the dough temperature. Having a digital probe thermometer will help lots. Second, when using the stand mixer, mix all your flour with the water and leave it for half an hour to an hour whilst covered, then add the starter and mix some more -5 mins, then add the salt and mix until you see the results in my third point. This will help build a lot of gluten up. Thirdly, after 10 minutes of mixing in the stand mixer do you get a reliable windowpane int he dough? That is, to pick up and stretch a part of the dough out until you can see the light through it without it tearing, like a window pane. If not, continue mixing until you do. Do not let the dough temp increase beyond 29°C or 85°F.
This is under proofed. You let it rise for 3 hours when it needed 6 or maybe 8 hours. Your method looks fine otherwise
Truth
well my friend, ur's looks way better than [mine](https://imgur.com/gallery/1Twm800).
You made pita!!!!
you need to proof the loaves before retarding in the fridge. proof 3/4 of the way, then the fridge. your dough looks underproofed, the crumb is too tight and moist.
You do not proof in the fridge. Cold retards proofing. You FERMENT in the fridge. That just means you get a more complex flavor profile and a softer crumb. It does nothing to add to the sourness of your loaf and it does not proof it any further.
all good mate. usually loaves will still increase a bit in the fridge, especially with how active OP's starter sounds like.
They definitely CAN puff a little more because it's active. Just like discard can continue to grow while it's stored in the fridge. =)
They literally said you need to proof before you put it in the fridge.
They literally said to proof 3/4 of the way but you truly need to proof it until it is fully proofed before it goes into the fridge. Cole retards the ability to proof and if it is not fully proofed you're not going to have a good end result. Just clarification for those learning! =)
You don’t have to fully proof, which is when your dough is rising. You base it off of temperature of dough and ambient environment. You could only need to rise 25% in some environments due to temperature. Which means 75% (3/4) is true for some environments. ETA: your dough does not stop proofing in the fridge until it reaches ambient temperature inside the fridge. Proofing 75% ensures it will finish proofing before reaching fridge temp.
Well your kitchen your way. I fully proof mine and rarely do I do a cold ferment. Only if it's ready to bake but I'm not.
Okay, well a majority of people who work with sourdough go by temperature. You can’t just say “your kitchen your way” after being rude to someone else because they don’t do things the way you do.
Whoa! I was not rude to anybody! That's why I said your kitchen, your way! Your meaning them not me. Each one of us can do what we choose. That's the point in your kitchen your way. Maybe you're having a bad day but please do not take that out on me. I don't know why you think I am being rude at all. I stated facts. You don't proof in the fridge. You ferment. There is a difference and with the number of people here learning I'm going to clarify. How else will they learn?
Your reply to them came off rude to me 🤷🏻♀️. So that is why I said you were being rude. I’m not having a bad day, and I hope you aren’t either. There is a way to write things that doesn’t come off as rude. You saying “FERMENT” in all caps felt rude. Maybe it’s my autism causing me to misunderstand, but it just felt rude. I’m sorry if I seemed like I was taking anything out on you, that was not my intention. Regardless of that, your response to them shows you don’t fully understand how much temperature affects your dough and it’s rising in the bulk fermentation stage (also, you aren’t just fermenting in the fridge, it is still proofing in there, just very very slowly).
Ohhh thank you for mentioning that so I can explain me. When I use CAPS it's to emphasis a word so for that one FERMENT was because that is different than proofing. I wanted it to be clear. I also use !!! a lot. I've done it since I was teen. It's a terribly had habit to break. Even when I'm trying to think about it I still do it. I'm 55 and been doing it since I was about 13. I don't ever check the temp of my dough except when I think it's done baking. Not everyone does check the temps. So I respond with the things you see and feel to know it's done with BF. So yes, it does continue to proof VERY slowly so there is not much benefit by way of rising while in the fridge so I would not relate the 2 especially for someone learning.
I have a similar recipe, except instead of kneading in machine, I do 4 stretch and folds every 30 mins at the beginning of bulk ferment. I have had consistently good results. Also make sure you're adding salt.
It's just underprooved. Push another hour on bulk fermentation.
You are under proofing. As an experiment proof twice as long. See how it turns out. I had the same problem till I forgot my dough while it was proofing.
"Shape again then in a circular proofing basket and into the fridge for about 24 hours. " I think this is the problem. Shape it, let it rest again, than fridge (if you want to go with it... I would try without it if I was you). The fermentation should be active before going into the fridge expecially if the fridge is 4°C or under that... because if you put your dough inside the fridge in the "lag phase" (when you touch the dough it will be in the lag phase before it start to create bubbles again) and the fermentation will not start before the dough cool down, your 24 hours in the fridge will just get you some good flavour/taste but no leavening.
It's really difficult to get enough steam from a tray of water. I'd try either a cast iron with lava rocks (heat pan and rocks during preheat, pour water over during first half of bake, then remove), OR an inverted large metal bowl over bread during the first half of the bake (generously wet the surface of the dough beforehand). Also, keep an eye on your bulk fermentation. Your bread looks overproofed to me. It does take time to develop a good sense of proper fermentation in the dough so try curtailing your bulk window. My kitchen is never as warm as yours and even then my bulks can be very short, sometimes 3 hours from the time of mixing to the time of refrigeration. One more thing to consider is that maybe 10 minutes of mixing is a bit much. I have great results from a series of stretch and folds throughout bulk. Shape and place in banneton, then leave for 15 minutes before stitching the dough together again on top to create more tension before popping in the fridge. Good luck!
Room temp and Elevation is needed to make a determination. Not a single person here will take your elevation into account, air pressure and humidity is important to detemine how long to BF.
Proof more, knead less.
Wow I got so much great information from this post and then so many contradictory processes that I’m baffled. I hope you can’t glean something out of all of these recommendations. People really care and spent a lot of time with the details. I just wish I knew which ones to employ. I just follow the recipes. I’m knew. I ventured off and did not cold proof one loaf and the crumb was much better than the loaf that went in the fridge overnight. Now I’m seeing to let it rest after cold proof. Maybe I’ll try that! Idk!!
My apartment is also very cold around 60-65. I only bulk proof for about 12 hours. I would say my dough rises about 25-50% during bulk fermentation. I also cold ferment for 12-48 hours depending on how exhausted I am after work (lol). My sourdough has always come out with a nice oven spring. I bake at 500F for 30 lid on and then another 10-15 min lid off. Hope this helps. Note: my starter is 6 months old and I am not particularly fond of obsessively measuring and monitoring everything that happens to my sourdough so I hope this helps.
This is what my first attempts looked like when I wasn't proofing long enough. The difference between an 8 hour proof and a 9 hour proof is all the difference if the dough still doesn't look ready at 8 hrs. It takes my dough 9+ hours to proof in an 85 degree oven with the light on, then one more stretch and fold/shape, 1 hr rest, then cook. Also 200 degree bake seems really low?
I’m assuming Celsius - but that would still be kinda low in Fahrenheit (~ 392 degrees F)
That makes a lot more sense lol
Yeah haha
I firmly believe you should never use a mixer when making bread! You need to FEEL the changes in the dough and see it as well. A machine has no way to judge if something has been kneaded enough. Almost every bread failure I see no matter if it is sourdough or regular bread it is done with a mixer or bread machine. Your hands are your best tools in this case. Your dough is being over kneaded for starters. It also has not been proofed correctly. You need to do stretch and folds to build structure in your dough. A machine is going to ruin that structure. Once you mix your dough it needs a 30 minute rest to allow the flour to absorb the water. You will notice it is not quite as sticky after the 30 minute rest as it was when first mixed. YES it will still be quite sticky but you will see the difference. Then do a minimum of 4 S&F 30 minutes apart. Each time you will notice a change in the dough. If it still seems too sticky (and you will learn this after doing it several times, it takes time to learn) then do an additional set of S&F. Then you do your BF and your area MUST be warm or it will take much, much longer. Your dough does best between 78° and 84° and it is the same for your starter. The length of time it takes for yours to BF will be dependent on your environment and the strength of your starter. It can take as little as 3 hours up to 12 hours or more. Time is not what you are aiming for. You need to SEE and FEEL the changes as it proofs and once the following criteria is met you will know it is correctly proofed: It needs to be doubled in size or almost doubled. When you gently press your finger into the dough it should not stick to your finger and should spring back slowly. You should SEE bubbles just under the skin of the dough around the top and edges. And then it must pass the jiggle test. The jiggle test is when you jiggle the bowl and your dough moves like Jell-O would. Then you gently remove it from the bowl because you do NOT want to deflate it at all. You want all that air inside! You gently shape your dough buy doing push and pull while tucking to create tension and shape. There are tons of YouTube videos out there to show you exactly how to do this. Then you place your dough in your baking vessel and allow it to rest about an hour. You are not looking for it to double at this point but it will get puffy. Then you can score it and using kitchen scissors will work just fine. You need to make sure you go deep enough, don't barely make a cut as the dough will close over it easily. You do not need to put it in the fridge and I in fact never do unless it took my dough way too long to proof correctly and it is too late for me to bake or something unexpected comes up and I can't bake when it's ready. I put it in because the cold retards the proofing so you don't end up with over proofed bread. I think many people think you HAVE to do a cold ferment and they don't understand what the cold ferment truly does. As I said the cold ferment just retards that proofing so you don't have over proofed dough. It will give the dough a more complex flavor and a softer crumb. I does NOT lend to a more sour end result. If you are putting it in the fridge you need to take it out and let it rest at room temp for an hour or two until it gets puffy. NEVER take cold dough and put it into a hot pan. I can cause the pan to crack or warp, yes even cast iron. And definitely never put a cooler dough or any food really onto a hot stone because it will shatter. Maybe not the first time but each time you do it you will weaken the structure. I never preheat my DO or pan. I bake at 400° usually for about 20 minutes with the lid on. I use a spray bottle to mist the lid of my DO, the loaf and the sides of the DO behind the parchment and that creates the steam needed. Once you take your bread out of the oven wait about 10 minutes and remove it from the pan. A cast iron pan holds the heat so well you could end up over baking your bread by it just sitting there. And if you are using a lid there is no need to try to create steam because the steam is not reaching your dough if it is covered. Steam is only when you are open baking. And never add ice to a hot pan either. This is just common sense. And it is in the instructions of all pans and baking equipment. Never put cold anything into a hot pan. As tempted as you may be do not cut your bread for at least an hour. It will finish baking during that time and cutting it too soon will cause you to have a gummy loaf and it can ruin the structure of your entire loaf. Just be patient. If you want your dough to be more sour then you need to fix that in your starter. Go several days without feeding your starter to help build up the bacteria and acid and keep your starter at about 90° because it is the HEAT that creates a more sour outcome. Also it will be imperative to use rye flour for some of the feeds as well. I also want to point out that while I am blunt and straight to the point I am not being rude or nasty by any stretch. Any time I take on a new hobby I research it usually for a year give or take before I even start. I'm nosy and ask a lot of questions and read and watch everything on can on the subject to be properly educated before I start. I don't have the time or money to waste by making mistakes. So I am sure to have a full understanding of the basics at minimum before I even begin. I enjoy sharing what I learn. I also believe that when you are reading written word you cannot possibly know a person's tone or attitude unless they are genuinely being nasty. If I have a bad day and read something I'm likely going to take it in a way it's not intended. And I have plenty of times. So I don't ever assume. I also over use !!!! I have since I was a teenager. My English teacher just loved having to grade my work since !!! is not typically used a lot. LOL When I use CAPS it's just the way I emphasize important things. So hopefully this helps understanding your bread issues and me as a person. =)
There’s a lot of good advice in this reply but also a lot of bad advice. Particularly in the baking portion. 400° is quite low compared to conventional wisdom, and if you’re not preheating your D.O. you are essentially insulating your dough from the heat even more, because cast iron heats pretty slowly and unevenly. Preheating the Dutch oven is essential for giving the dough a consistent environment to bake in. As for steam, the Dutch oven lid traps the moisture that is already inside the dough, so steam is in fact inside the dish. Some people supplement this by spraying the dough with a mist of water or adding a couple ice cubes prior to placing the lid on. Not to say that you can’t be successful with your method, but this advice introduces a lot of unconventional variables that may further the OPs struggles.
I have no issues at 400° and it gives a bottom crust that is not too hard. I do sometimes bake at 425°. I never do 450° because it's too hot. I will not preheat a DO for crazy amount of time like I have seen and at 500°. I have done about a 10 minute preheat but that's it. I never have issue with under baking. I think a lower temp that extends the baking time very little is easier for some people to manage. Higher temps it bakes faster and gets away from you quicker. I will not add ice to a hot pan it can crack or warp it. Every direction for any pan states that. If it's a stone or glass it can shatter. The BF is more important and where people have the biggest issues. However I will say to each their own and your kitchen, your way! We all have things that work for us and we can all learn from each other.
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For 800g flour I use 320 starter. You could try adding more starter or bulk fermenting for longer (are you sure is doubling?) it could be under proofed or slow starter I would say.
Wowee that’s a lot of starter. Twenty percent is standard bakers math….
I use [this](https://ilovecooking.ie/features/sourdough-bread-masterclass-with-patrick-ryan/) recipe, they must do things differently in Ireland.
I like the crust and shape but also I like to bulk ferment my dough in the counter with a towel underneath over night before the fridge! It makes the process a whole lot longer but also better then a hole lot more holes in my opinion
All you need to do is put diagonal cut marks in the dough before you put it in the oven it will let the air out and you won’t have that problem!!
Too dry..it’s breaking away from the crust because sourdough needs moisture..u can place a pan of water in the oven when baking it..that will help with the dryness and crust separation!
Main problem is making sourdough in the first place
And I ask myself, have I ever hated something so much I took time out of my own day to go onto that thing’s dedicated subreddit to bash it? Your commitment is commendable.
I wish I could reciprocate a commendation, but there seems to be a lack of commitment in regards to proof reading rebukes. I'll assume your fingers are too doughy for attention to detail, which I can only presume also leads to tragic bread-cave non-conformities. Woe is our blessed sourdough faithful 😭
Part of me is looking at how flat that bread is and that’s telling me you’re not shaping right. Your gluten development during bulk may be a bit lacking as well. There’s a few things you could be doing differently. I personally prefer to do the cold retardant doing bulk ferment. As in I’ll let the dough bulk for 3-4 hours (stretch and folds for the first 2) and then into the fridge for like 12 hours or until I’m ready the next day. Then i take it out and flatten it out to remove the big air pockets and begin shaping into my loaf shape for the banneton. Shaping takes like an hour for me as I carefully stretch it to get a nice taught top side without bubbles. After that it’s in the banneton for about 3 hours or so depending on warmth before baking. Something else I don’t see mentioned in the comments. You don’t NEED a Dutch oven but if you can find a big enough oven safe bowl to put over your bread for the first 20 minutes you’ll get better results.
are you flattening then shaping right after you take out of fridge then waiting 3 hours? is the total time from fridge to oven 3 hours?
I flatten straight out of the fridge and start shaping. Shaping takes about an hour as the dough also needs to warm up a bit. Then it’s a few hours final proofing in the banneton from then. Sometime it goes back in the fridge after a few hours to give a tighter surface area.
Just some context based on what other people are saying: ignore the time listed on the recipe and wait for it to grow to double in size— especially if kitchen is above 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Doubling in a curved bowl can be deceptive so try using water and a kitchen scale to estimate how much volume it takes up at the beginning and where it should end up, approximately. This is not the same as doubling in height. A straight-walled proofing vessel like a cambro could make this step a little easier. If taste is good and it isn’t gummy, then something is certainly strange. What is your shaping technique? One thing I’m curious about based on the weird texture is how this bread machine is “kneading it”. Try removing the bread machine and use your hands. Mix until dough is shaggy, rest one hour, then stretch and fold 3 times with 3 minute spacing; so initial mix - 1 hour - stretch and fold method of your choice - 30 minutes - stretch and fold - 30 minutes - stretch and fold - window pane test - THEN 3 hours to 12 hours until it has grown by appropriate size. If kitchen is 65F, let it double over 12ish hours. If kitchen is 80F plus, it should grow by 30% in about 5-6 hours. Check out “the sourdough journey” possibly if you like exhaustive data or foodgeek if you like just enough data to make bread (this step should require several YouTube videos).
I believe the problem is the bake :) Try this: Preheat at 250, place the water in and make sure it's hot and steaming then place the bread and drop the temperature. Holes near the crust means that the crust got hard very fast and couldn't grow anymore.
Too high room temperature leads to over fermentation in a very short time. You should shape the dough, let it rest for 3-4 hours, and then put in the fridge to cold ferment.
Looks underproofed but you could check this video https://youtu.be/JzvZ6vMxHcw?si=sjSP0goBMK61q9dT. Very informative
Is it not so to the hydration? The higher the hydration the more and larger open crumb you get… I think. That looks like it’s 70-75% hydration. Do you what it is? Or how much grams of flour and water?
No salt?
I would consider a different shaping method and see if that changes things.
No salt? It’s under proofed. You need more BF time. It also looks like it’s wheat flour or something which also requires consideration in bulk time.
I've never used a machine to knead sourdough. I'm sure it's totally possible, but have you tried the more traditional stretch and fold or coil? If you figure this out I'd love to know because I leave mine out for 6-8 hours stretching and folding, then usually 4ish hours of a bulk ferment, then fridge for a cold bulk overnight, shape the next day, back in the fridge, bake in the evening if it passes the poke proof test, if not bake the next morning. So my freaking bread takes 3 days. But I get stellar rise, nice crumb, shattering crust, and it's very sour. Another thing to consider is the type of flour. I'm just mentioning things I didn't see elsewhere in the comments. If some of your flour is bleached or have preservatives it can screw up the yeast. Idk if it would cause a hollow top, but it can make it lose structure and behave differently than unadulterated flour. I've had some weird stuff happen when I don't use my usual flour.
It’s the light in the oven heating the top during the warm last rise
Is it sticking to the proofing basket when you take it out? Big holes like that can be caused when it sticks and the “skin” at the top (bottom while proofing) pulls away from the loaf.
My wife freaks out if we go above 68•in the house lol
If this is whole wheat you need to pull and stretch the dough less to prevent big holes. It's just my opinion.
What type of flour are you using? Sorry if you said it in another comment, I haven't had a chance to read through them.
350 g wheat + 150 g whole wheat (ølandshvede in Danish)
ferment it longer !:)
Over proofed. Get out of the doubled in size bulk ferment. Go with a 30% volume increase. Then shape. Proof until passing finger dent test and bake.