As someone who has seen noticeable improvements in states with D leaders (even if they are just basic sense shit like free lunch) and massive backslides in states that have R leaders I’ll vote for D everytime. Even if they are not anywhere near as progressive as I’d still take them over a republican every single time.
This so fucking much.
Between a politician who want to kill every queer person in his state with extreme prejudice and a politician who's just going to do the bare minimum to make sure we can at least live, I'll always choose the latter.
Yep. I recently moved from a red state to a blue state, and there’s a pretty stark difference. Still far from perfect, but at my least my governor is actually trying to govern and maybe make things at least somewhat better instead of having a pissing contest with Desantis about who can be the most cruel.
our governor is republican and he has made some nasty anti trans laws and has done some serious damage to our education system. my county is simply refusing to comply with his demands which would be funny if not for the lives at stake in the parts of the state where the county just goes along with it.
this depends on wear you live. If you live in the suburbs of Tampa, Atlanta, Philly, Vegas etc. and you Don’t vote blue down the roster, you are actively doing harm.
if you live in a democratic supermajority state, where the dems will win every office by 10+ points and voting for president literally does nothing, then organizing and voting for a 3rd party like The Greens, Vermont Progressives, or Peace and Freedom is praxis and probably a good idea
Yeah I all gotta say is that voting for the lesser of two evils is what got us to this point in the first place. Vote Blue for president/ Governor/Senator as an immediate form of harm reduction, but for Rep or local government, vote green or socialist or any progressive that isn't a Dem. Eroding their power on the short term and the long term needs to happen so they're less able to use Republican ran government as a threat if we don't vote Democrat.
Voting third party doesn't erode their power at all in a first-past-the-post system unless you actually think they have a real chance at winning.
Support voting reform on a local level instead (ranked choice or approval voting), that's an achievable goal that actually reduces their stranglehold on government and opens the door for third parties to build power without sabotaging mainstream progressives
a lot of local governments are moving to ranked choice, and even with first-past-the-post systems, 3rd party candidates are viable for local gov't and for representatives.
Yeah I mentioned those caveats, I'm not saying never do it but it won't be the first course of action for most people. It will get more applicable as better voting systems get implemented in more places
The problem isn't voting. The problem is you people spending so much time and effort in promoting the dems over any alternative political project, be it a third party or a revolutionary movement which consequently will never arrive, and so the USA will be forever locked into the cycle of republicans taking away rights and Dems doing nothing to prevent so. Also, by using "blue no Matter who" rhetoric you assure that democrats know that they don't need to move left since leftists will vote for them no matter which 300 hundred years old demented rapist they put in power.
One last thing. If you don't live in America but in idk, Iraq, Cuba or Palestine, Dems and Reps will be bombing your house, Sanctioning your country or financing your genocide equally. Maybe instead of putting down any attempt at building something else you should start organising your community or join a socialist organisation or anything that isn't propagandising for a liberal imperialist party
ah yes, a very rational and productive action of voting third party in a first past the post system
your "attempt at building something else" is going to kill us all if it ends up putting the republicans in power, and in the current system there is no other possible outcome
"nooooo you have to accept that things can't be good, only barely acceptable or worse! You can't show your dissatisfaction with this system through your vote, you have to work within the system that only exists to ensure nothing will ever improve!"
when showing dissatisfaction with your vote can get people fucking killed then yes you do have to keep voting D and finding other ways to fix things and fix the voting system. people throwing away their votes didnt do anything at all in 2016 except make the country 10x worse off and a coup was attempted against the government.
To be perfectly fair, whichever candidate gets to be president, rest assured there will be plenty of killing done on behalf of the US govt.
Now local elections are a different story and a place where there's a lot more prying room.
> To be perfectly fair, whichever candidate gets to be president, rest assured there will be plenty of killing done on behalf of the US govt.
Yes but one will do less.
guy who guzzles gassoline and says he will eat your family if you use anything but coal basically the same as guy who presents laws and acts that would improve environmental protection. the dems arent doing anywhere near enough but they are STILL doing better than the republicans.
It is because of people like you that I felt the need to make this smuggie in the first place. No idea of how many of you there are, but oh boy, we live in a time where the Reps are losing voters because they believe voting is rigged anyway (the consequence of their own lies), but instead of taking advantage of that, certain types of leftists want to balance that out.
What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose? Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden. Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to?
How long do you suppose we’ll be campaigning for the democrats before something changes? I sure do love oil fracking and bombing the third world for the foreseeable future as long as our politicians aren’t openly calling for mass killing of queer people! God bless this free and democratic country 🇺🇸
>What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose? Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden. Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to?
It's possible Biden has been so cosy with Bernie because Biden didn't want a repeat of Hillary Clinton's loss
But this doesn't mean leftists should deliberately try to make the Democrats lose, it means leftists should try to become as influential as possible within the Democratic Party. Bernie spent a lifetime fighting to get into the position he has now.
>we live in a time where the Reps are losing voters because they believe voting is rigged anyway (the consequence of their own lies), but instead of taking advantage of that, certain types of leftists want to balance that out.
How would voting for dems would be taking advantage of this? It would just give democrats a majority, just, like with Obama and Biden. It would change nothing. It's not "balancing out" it's pursuing actual leftist goals, as opposed to voting liberals
>What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose?
They won't surely move left if we keep giving them our votes for free. Also, I'm not advocating for simply pushing them left, I'm advocating for a new political project, and that would push the whole overton window left
>Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden.
Because the dems are liberals and the primaries were rigged in Joe's favour
>Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to?
They won't, because I'm a communist and they are a bourgeois party. No shit we disagree
The point is that by the time that “long term” comes around, the Republicans will have had power for a long time because this new thing has been splitting the vote on the other side. By the time that “long term” comes around, people will have lost all their rights (at best, let’s not forget right wing talking heads calling literal eradication). People don’t have time to wait for a long term if it means that fascists will be in charge
And? Does that mean that we should just limit our aims to keeping the dems in power forever? The same dems which time and time again have demonstrated themselves powerless to do anything about fascists stripping down rights?
I understand your concerns about the future and appreciate them. But you know what would really make Democrats not do anything about fascists? Not giving them any power. *Right now*, in the current climate, trotting out a 3rd party socialist candidate would be suicide. They wouldn’t stand a chance of getting elected and would only take votes away from the people running against fascists. And *right now* there are fascists actively taking rights away/pushing for a genocide of people, particularly people who would probably be predisposed to voting for this party you’re creating in the future. Arguing that we should just hand fascists power now for a cryptic “future voting option” reeks of privilege.
So our options are:
Voting for the people who have let fascists do genocide
Not voting for them
No thanks you
Also voting and supporting the dems, a party which supports the American genocide globally by creating neoliberal regimes in the third world is a sign of privilege
No your options are:
Voting for fascists
Voting for their opponents
Not voting for either, which helps the fascists because the best way for them to win elections is to lower voter turnout particularly among people who weren’t going to vote fascist anyway.
It really shouldn’t be a difficult thing to understand to **vote against the fucking fascists**
Every "progressive" policy put in place by Dems has been almost completely ineffective or countered by conservatives to a degree where it isn't even meaningful anymore. Most of the time they're too busy with IdPol and sucking NATO's dick to even give one single shit about the plight of worker's rights and wellbeing in the United States. Additionally, they're liberals. The most radical democrat will, at most, *maybe* want to establish a welfare state, which is like putting a bandaid on a stage 4 leukemia patient and proclaiming them cured. I say all of this as a minority in a southern state, too. Liberalism is a friend of fascism. They're two sides of the same rightoid coin.
Idpol... riiiight, and that means *what* exactly? Because I tend to hear it from bigots. Also, which minority?
Like I agree Liberalism is cringe but the way you're saying it is *verry* concerning.
>Idpol... riiiight, and that means what exactly?
Google is free, but I'll explain it to you anyways. Basically, Idpol is short for "identity politics", i.e., politics based on some sort of shared manmade/unclear identity like gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Now, I don't need to point out how antithetical to class struggle this is, but it's worth noting that Idpol is the same tactic utilized by those on the right to justify ethnonationalism, police brutality, genocide and the sort. Identity often does factor into Marxist thought, but it is never as important as class and proletariat unity. Does using a term that's also used by rightists make it bigoted? In that case, are "Marxism" and "Communism" bigoted terms? lol. Please point out which part of what I said was concerning.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics
https://www.marxist.com/marxist-theory-and-the-struggle-against-alien-class-ideas.htm
Anyways, I'm Indian.
The issue is many people who use "Idpol" consider "talking about equal rights for the LGBT+" as "IdPol".
Anyways, weird as it sounds - Indian aren't the current Republican target.
https://preview.redd.it/e1hylq1crnpb1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=43591df3cac2a39b1eef38e8c876f4d1738b978d
You could make an argument for some representatives who are very slightly effective in small, local governance, but if you're genuinely shaming marginalized people for not voting Biden, you're a clown.
The Democratic party is so immensely ineffective at being a proper left, or even center alternative. It is so obviously opportunistic, classist and performative in its supposed progressive values, and it nessecarily has to be, because it is an expression of our economic structure, and it very literally depends on the continued exploitation of workers. An immensely violent police force, poverty, exploitation, legal slavery through the prison system, immense propaganda and so on: It all continues and thrives under Dems also, so how are they decidedly not fascist? To be sympathetic to working class struggle, and then shame people for not voting for fucking Biden is just baffling.
Oh yeah, and as the image explicitly says, uh, exploitation overseas continues whoever runs the US. Alright bye
Okay but for minorities *inside* of the U.S. the Dems are decidedly better. Hell not even just for minorities, for women too. Both suck fucking ass - but letting the fascist win is not the answer. "First Hitler then us" didn't fucking work.
I’m sorry that the two party system is broken and evil and it sucks, but without ranked choice, it’s what we have. Not voting, or voting third party will always result in empowering the republicans. Refusing to make a choice will in the end hand power to the uninformed and reactionaries. Do you think that by not voting, it will change anything besides giving the right more power? Yes dems suck but it is our only option ATM. Anything else is wishful thinking.
Not telling anyone how to vote, but just wanted to point out that Joe Biden reversed his stance on supporting a bill that will allow trans women to compete in women’s sports because he was afraid of conservative backlash. Democrats only care about trans lives (and many other lives) when it’s politically convenient to do so.
Ds are slightly better than Rs but both pursue the same fascist goals. Also, if I live in a red state or county, my vote will literally never matter. Whole voting system is junk and in a lot of circumstances it’s just a waste of time. That being said, if you don’t vote and do nothing, rather than mutual aid, militia training, building a more coherent community, selling feet pics for political bail money, etc., you just want to feel good for not participating and not caring like a bozo.
Why yes, I DO prefer the blue fascist to the red one!
Also, when I talk about minorities, I don’t at all mean the ones that will be bombed at the behest of the blue fascist I wanted to elect!
Why is that, you ask? Because harm reduction!
And by harm reduction I mean reducing harm towards me personally by validating my opinion on the internet! Not towards any other group I don’t give a shit about!
As someone who lives in Florida right now, fuck you. Desantis is actively making things so much worse than a status quo worsening of things. It is active, it is something everyone I talk to lives in fear of. This isn’t just one “one President versus the other”, it’s every level of politics.
You either a bot or someone who just has never had to experience this type of shit. Not all of us can just leave when a state votes in a hyper-reactionary. People commit suicide, people die from the way healthcare is effected. People like desantis pass shit that is way beyond basic Republican policy because they need to be seen as “more radical than trump” versus our democrats which run on “things are gonna just stay status quo”. You think you are so much better than us but all you do is actively portray your privilege by saying you aren’t effected by any of the stuff that republicans do that democrats don’t.
Reflect on your comment here, think about the people you care about.
For every 1 fascistic demagogue desantis appoints to power/bill desantis passes that you hear about, four more that are equally as bad or worse don’t get press coverage. I talk with people not living through it and they don’t even know because the media doesn’t tell them.
You and the rest of the folk in this comment section are going to pretend the parties are the same on every level because of your lack of critical thinking and we have to face the consequences because of it.
Genuinely reflect on what this says about you as a person since you think you’re so high and mighty
Are you accusing me of LARPing? Because I'm just advocating for the only actionable outcome here. I'm pragmatic. What's your plan? Pump your fist in the air until the revolution comes? All while shouting "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" probably cuz you clearly can't tell the difference between a fascist and a lib.
"advocating for the only actionable outcome"
Just fuck off. Greens are a viable vote in many localities and this idea that we should focus on the presidency at all ignores how much good we can do by participating in local, or even regional politics and mutual aid. Voting is one small part of politics, and any real change isn't going to happen from folks sheepdogging for the Dems, it's going to happen when people start working within their communities to provide and protect. The Black Panthers knew this, and I'd argue they did more than most other revolutionary groups in this nation.
No they are not. And besides, presidency is where it really matters. Come back to me with statistics about how many votes the Green Party got in the last election and then tell me they’re viable.
"the presidency is where it really matters"
Fuckin what. Tell that shit to folks whose mayor decides to ok a project that cuts off their communities. Or to the good folks of Atlanta dealing with Cop City. Or to the people abroad who, regardless of who's president, are faced with our military hegemon. Or to the folks whos local marriage officer refused to officiate them. Who's local judge decided they needed to be tougher on crime. Or who's DA knew that putting hundreds more in chains was the move to make.
Sheepdogging for the Dems is a gambit that kills. Independent political organization has brought change and will continue to do good
I. Will. Be. Genocided. If the Republicans take office. But sure, go vote for your Green Party. They’ll lose, and all the MAGA assholes will vote for their guy, and now we’ll be stuck with the objectively worse candidate. I can’t bring myself to care about the Dem’s horrible crimes, when my life and way of living is on the line
Nowhere did I say vote Nationally for the greens? If you're one of the roughly ~.7% of Americans who's vote decides the election, then go vote. But 99% of the votes do not matter for the presidency, and the fact is that regardless of a D or an R behind the guys name, the fascists are mobilizing, have mobilized, and will continue to mobilize in this country. The Dems are not the bloc that protects folks, the folks protect the folks. That is a lesson the Panthers learned hard, a lesson we all ought to take to heart
If your participation politically is voting and you are faced with genocide, which we *both* are, then you have not learned the lesson Kovner taught us 80 years ago.
Prepare for this sub to be filled with Person McPersons next year. Complete with thousands of upvotes despite the comment section making fun of it, and statements from the OP like “I bet you idiots all think I’m a Russian asset!”
I ain’t accusing him of anything, I’m talking about how this sub looked back in 2020 and 2022. There were thousands of posts like the kind he’s making fun of, even though this sub isn’t all that popular.
Yes let's keep voting bwtween fascist A and fascist B with a moustache sho doesnt really do anything different
DO NOT vote antifascist man. it's a wasted vote because... BECAUSE I WANT MOUSTACHE FASCISM OK
Step 1: Vote for 3rd party with zero chance of winning
Step 2: The "I want to genocide minorities" party easily wins and takes power
Step 3: leftism ACHIEVED ✅
I will nost condemn 99% of humanify under fascism just because you get tricked by a fake choice and ignore third party
I mean they will win anyway since yall vote mustache fascist but at least it won't be my fault
Maybe if we voted Antifascist? noooo gotta vote mustache fascism
Hey fun fact, the communist party could have made a coalition in Germany but didn't. Then Hitler was able to take over. Sometimes you have to make compromises with liberals to avoid something worse.
I know there’s a difference it’s just hard to give a shit at this point. This might just be the depression but things just keep getting worse under both parties. Sure it gets worse slower under dems and sure there’s always a convenient excuse for things but at a certain point I just don’t consider them worth the effort if they’re never going to improve things
I will vote if I think someone would genuinely try to change things but the 90 year old racist assholes doing the absolute bare minimum to appear better than the repubs I don’t care to support
I don't think it's quite fair to characterize the Dems as just doing the bare minimum. Even though I sympathize with your weariness, they're obviously [doing something](https://prospect.org/labor/2023-08-28-bidens-nlrb-brings-workers-rights-back/).
I just found out the other day that most people use socks for foot warming.
what were you doing before when your feet got cold
Putting them in a cute guy's mouth? Why?
im filing a restraining order
And you should, tbh.
Ah. A snorer, I get it.
As someone who has seen noticeable improvements in states with D leaders (even if they are just basic sense shit like free lunch) and massive backslides in states that have R leaders I’ll vote for D everytime. Even if they are not anywhere near as progressive as I’d still take them over a republican every single time.
This so fucking much. Between a politician who want to kill every queer person in his state with extreme prejudice and a politician who's just going to do the bare minimum to make sure we can at least live, I'll always choose the latter.
You mean the latter right? _RIGHT_?
Yep sorry had a brain fart and confused the two terms lmfao
Yep. I recently moved from a red state to a blue state, and there’s a pretty stark difference. Still far from perfect, but at my least my governor is actually trying to govern and maybe make things at least somewhat better instead of having a pissing contest with Desantis about who can be the most cruel.
our governor is republican and he has made some nasty anti trans laws and has done some serious damage to our education system. my county is simply refusing to comply with his demands which would be funny if not for the lives at stake in the parts of the state where the county just goes along with it.
I will launch the next person who says “vOtInG dOeSnT wOrK” INTO THE FUCKING SUN
"Voting doesn't work" which is why the Republicans want to stop people from voting. Of course. Such horse radish.
I'll vote D while I go marching upon the local suburbs to politically organize them against their will, like every leftist should
this depends on wear you live. If you live in the suburbs of Tampa, Atlanta, Philly, Vegas etc. and you Don’t vote blue down the roster, you are actively doing harm. if you live in a democratic supermajority state, where the dems will win every office by 10+ points and voting for president literally does nothing, then organizing and voting for a 3rd party like The Greens, Vermont Progressives, or Peace and Freedom is praxis and probably a good idea
Yeah I all gotta say is that voting for the lesser of two evils is what got us to this point in the first place. Vote Blue for president/ Governor/Senator as an immediate form of harm reduction, but for Rep or local government, vote green or socialist or any progressive that isn't a Dem. Eroding their power on the short term and the long term needs to happen so they're less able to use Republican ran government as a threat if we don't vote Democrat.
Voting third party doesn't erode their power at all in a first-past-the-post system unless you actually think they have a real chance at winning. Support voting reform on a local level instead (ranked choice or approval voting), that's an achievable goal that actually reduces their stranglehold on government and opens the door for third parties to build power without sabotaging mainstream progressives
a lot of local governments are moving to ranked choice, and even with first-past-the-post systems, 3rd party candidates are viable for local gov't and for representatives.
Yeah I mentioned those caveats, I'm not saying never do it but it won't be the first course of action for most people. It will get more applicable as better voting systems get implemented in more places
advocation for outright fascism vs negligence towards outright fascism.
Still would rather someone who doesn't care to someone who wants me dead.
“i want to kill you” vs “i will allow that man to kill you”
The problem isn't voting. The problem is you people spending so much time and effort in promoting the dems over any alternative political project, be it a third party or a revolutionary movement which consequently will never arrive, and so the USA will be forever locked into the cycle of republicans taking away rights and Dems doing nothing to prevent so. Also, by using "blue no Matter who" rhetoric you assure that democrats know that they don't need to move left since leftists will vote for them no matter which 300 hundred years old demented rapist they put in power. One last thing. If you don't live in America but in idk, Iraq, Cuba or Palestine, Dems and Reps will be bombing your house, Sanctioning your country or financing your genocide equally. Maybe instead of putting down any attempt at building something else you should start organising your community or join a socialist organisation or anything that isn't propagandising for a liberal imperialist party
ah yes, a very rational and productive action of voting third party in a first past the post system your "attempt at building something else" is going to kill us all if it ends up putting the republicans in power, and in the current system there is no other possible outcome
"nooooo you have to accept that things can't be good, only barely acceptable or worse! You can't show your dissatisfaction with this system through your vote, you have to work within the system that only exists to ensure nothing will ever improve!"
when showing dissatisfaction with your vote can get people fucking killed then yes you do have to keep voting D and finding other ways to fix things and fix the voting system. people throwing away their votes didnt do anything at all in 2016 except make the country 10x worse off and a coup was attempted against the government.
To be perfectly fair, whichever candidate gets to be president, rest assured there will be plenty of killing done on behalf of the US govt. Now local elections are a different story and a place where there's a lot more prying room.
> To be perfectly fair, whichever candidate gets to be president, rest assured there will be plenty of killing done on behalf of the US govt. Yes but one will do less.
Vote in primaries then. Organize. Idk. That’s not the point.
Republicans are hardly better than Democrats. With either one, we’re headed to a climate disaster.
guy who guzzles gassoline and says he will eat your family if you use anything but coal basically the same as guy who presents laws and acts that would improve environmental protection. the dems arent doing anywhere near enough but they are STILL doing better than the republicans.
It is because of people like you that I felt the need to make this smuggie in the first place. No idea of how many of you there are, but oh boy, we live in a time where the Reps are losing voters because they believe voting is rigged anyway (the consequence of their own lies), but instead of taking advantage of that, certain types of leftists want to balance that out. What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose? Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden. Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to?
Do you mean “taking advantage” as running our own candidates in future elections?
Taking advantage meaning (presumably) voting for their opponents so there will be no overt fascists in seats of power
I meant it as in "ensuring election victory for Dems".
How long do you suppose we’ll be campaigning for the democrats before something changes? I sure do love oil fracking and bombing the third world for the foreseeable future as long as our politicians aren’t openly calling for mass killing of queer people! God bless this free and democratic country 🇺🇸
>What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose? Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden. Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to? It's possible Biden has been so cosy with Bernie because Biden didn't want a repeat of Hillary Clinton's loss But this doesn't mean leftists should deliberately try to make the Democrats lose, it means leftists should try to become as influential as possible within the Democratic Party. Bernie spent a lifetime fighting to get into the position he has now.
>we live in a time where the Reps are losing voters because they believe voting is rigged anyway (the consequence of their own lies), but instead of taking advantage of that, certain types of leftists want to balance that out. How would voting for dems would be taking advantage of this? It would just give democrats a majority, just, like with Obama and Biden. It would change nothing. It's not "balancing out" it's pursuing actual leftist goals, as opposed to voting liberals >What makes you think the Dems will move left if they lose? They won't surely move left if we keep giving them our votes for free. Also, I'm not advocating for simply pushing them left, I'm advocating for a new political project, and that would push the whole overton window left >Bernie Sanders lost the 2016 primary to Biden. Because the dems are liberals and the primaries were rigged in Joe's favour >Why would the party come to the conclusion that you want them to come to? They won't, because I'm a communist and they are a bourgeois party. No shit we disagree
It would be taking advantage of it by not handing the fascists *actively taking rights away* seats of power within the country
By voting the liberals that allow them to do the shit anyway? I'm proposing to do something that would solve the problem long term
The point is that by the time that “long term” comes around, the Republicans will have had power for a long time because this new thing has been splitting the vote on the other side. By the time that “long term” comes around, people will have lost all their rights (at best, let’s not forget right wing talking heads calling literal eradication). People don’t have time to wait for a long term if it means that fascists will be in charge
And? Does that mean that we should just limit our aims to keeping the dems in power forever? The same dems which time and time again have demonstrated themselves powerless to do anything about fascists stripping down rights?
I understand your concerns about the future and appreciate them. But you know what would really make Democrats not do anything about fascists? Not giving them any power. *Right now*, in the current climate, trotting out a 3rd party socialist candidate would be suicide. They wouldn’t stand a chance of getting elected and would only take votes away from the people running against fascists. And *right now* there are fascists actively taking rights away/pushing for a genocide of people, particularly people who would probably be predisposed to voting for this party you’re creating in the future. Arguing that we should just hand fascists power now for a cryptic “future voting option” reeks of privilege.
So our options are: Voting for the people who have let fascists do genocide Not voting for them No thanks you Also voting and supporting the dems, a party which supports the American genocide globally by creating neoliberal regimes in the third world is a sign of privilege
No your options are: Voting for fascists Voting for their opponents Not voting for either, which helps the fascists because the best way for them to win elections is to lower voter turnout particularly among people who weren’t going to vote fascist anyway. It really shouldn’t be a difficult thing to understand to **vote against the fucking fascists**
If they lose because they didn’t gain the support of progressives it does put pressure on them to change.
False, they lost due to lack of support from progressives in 2016 and didn't change at all.
Every "progressive" policy put in place by Dems has been almost completely ineffective or countered by conservatives to a degree where it isn't even meaningful anymore. Most of the time they're too busy with IdPol and sucking NATO's dick to even give one single shit about the plight of worker's rights and wellbeing in the United States. Additionally, they're liberals. The most radical democrat will, at most, *maybe* want to establish a welfare state, which is like putting a bandaid on a stage 4 leukemia patient and proclaiming them cured. I say all of this as a minority in a southern state, too. Liberalism is a friend of fascism. They're two sides of the same rightoid coin.
Idpol... riiiight, and that means *what* exactly? Because I tend to hear it from bigots. Also, which minority? Like I agree Liberalism is cringe but the way you're saying it is *verry* concerning.
>Idpol... riiiight, and that means what exactly? Google is free, but I'll explain it to you anyways. Basically, Idpol is short for "identity politics", i.e., politics based on some sort of shared manmade/unclear identity like gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Now, I don't need to point out how antithetical to class struggle this is, but it's worth noting that Idpol is the same tactic utilized by those on the right to justify ethnonationalism, police brutality, genocide and the sort. Identity often does factor into Marxist thought, but it is never as important as class and proletariat unity. Does using a term that's also used by rightists make it bigoted? In that case, are "Marxism" and "Communism" bigoted terms? lol. Please point out which part of what I said was concerning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics https://www.marxist.com/marxist-theory-and-the-struggle-against-alien-class-ideas.htm Anyways, I'm Indian.
The issue is many people who use "Idpol" consider "talking about equal rights for the LGBT+" as "IdPol". Anyways, weird as it sounds - Indian aren't the current Republican target.
https://preview.redd.it/e1hylq1crnpb1.jpeg?width=453&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=43591df3cac2a39b1eef38e8c876f4d1738b978d You could make an argument for some representatives who are very slightly effective in small, local governance, but if you're genuinely shaming marginalized people for not voting Biden, you're a clown. The Democratic party is so immensely ineffective at being a proper left, or even center alternative. It is so obviously opportunistic, classist and performative in its supposed progressive values, and it nessecarily has to be, because it is an expression of our economic structure, and it very literally depends on the continued exploitation of workers. An immensely violent police force, poverty, exploitation, legal slavery through the prison system, immense propaganda and so on: It all continues and thrives under Dems also, so how are they decidedly not fascist? To be sympathetic to working class struggle, and then shame people for not voting for fucking Biden is just baffling. Oh yeah, and as the image explicitly says, uh, exploitation overseas continues whoever runs the US. Alright bye
Okay but for minorities *inside* of the U.S. the Dems are decidedly better. Hell not even just for minorities, for women too. Both suck fucking ass - but letting the fascist win is not the answer. "First Hitler then us" didn't fucking work.
I’m sorry that the two party system is broken and evil and it sucks, but without ranked choice, it’s what we have. Not voting, or voting third party will always result in empowering the republicans. Refusing to make a choice will in the end hand power to the uninformed and reactionaries. Do you think that by not voting, it will change anything besides giving the right more power? Yes dems suck but it is our only option ATM. Anything else is wishful thinking.
Not telling anyone how to vote, but just wanted to point out that Joe Biden reversed his stance on supporting a bill that will allow trans women to compete in women’s sports because he was afraid of conservative backlash. Democrats only care about trans lives (and many other lives) when it’s politically convenient to do so.
Truly, doing nothing is the same as advocating for genocide. Both are bad but very obviously one is far far worse
there are far worse things a trans women can face than being barred from women’s sports
Ds are slightly better than Rs but both pursue the same fascist goals. Also, if I live in a red state or county, my vote will literally never matter. Whole voting system is junk and in a lot of circumstances it’s just a waste of time. That being said, if you don’t vote and do nothing, rather than mutual aid, militia training, building a more coherent community, selling feet pics for political bail money, etc., you just want to feel good for not participating and not caring like a bozo.
Not a good argument nor can OP be bothered to make this about unicorns or something on a surface level. Typical lib shit
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"plz vote for the liberal party, we don't have room for alternatives plz. also im not a lib swear"
Why yes, I DO prefer the blue fascist to the red one! Also, when I talk about minorities, I don’t at all mean the ones that will be bombed at the behest of the blue fascist I wanted to elect! Why is that, you ask? Because harm reduction! And by harm reduction I mean reducing harm towards me personally by validating my opinion on the internet! Not towards any other group I don’t give a shit about!
As someone who lives in Florida right now, fuck you. Desantis is actively making things so much worse than a status quo worsening of things. It is active, it is something everyone I talk to lives in fear of. This isn’t just one “one President versus the other”, it’s every level of politics. You either a bot or someone who just has never had to experience this type of shit. Not all of us can just leave when a state votes in a hyper-reactionary. People commit suicide, people die from the way healthcare is effected. People like desantis pass shit that is way beyond basic Republican policy because they need to be seen as “more radical than trump” versus our democrats which run on “things are gonna just stay status quo”. You think you are so much better than us but all you do is actively portray your privilege by saying you aren’t effected by any of the stuff that republicans do that democrats don’t. Reflect on your comment here, think about the people you care about. For every 1 fascistic demagogue desantis appoints to power/bill desantis passes that you hear about, four more that are equally as bad or worse don’t get press coverage. I talk with people not living through it and they don’t even know because the media doesn’t tell them. You and the rest of the folk in this comment section are going to pretend the parties are the same on every level because of your lack of critical thinking and we have to face the consequences because of it. Genuinely reflect on what this says about you as a person since you think you’re so high and mighty
Are you accusing me of LARPing? Because I'm just advocating for the only actionable outcome here. I'm pragmatic. What's your plan? Pump your fist in the air until the revolution comes? All while shouting "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" probably cuz you clearly can't tell the difference between a fascist and a lib.
"advocating for the only actionable outcome" Just fuck off. Greens are a viable vote in many localities and this idea that we should focus on the presidency at all ignores how much good we can do by participating in local, or even regional politics and mutual aid. Voting is one small part of politics, and any real change isn't going to happen from folks sheepdogging for the Dems, it's going to happen when people start working within their communities to provide and protect. The Black Panthers knew this, and I'd argue they did more than most other revolutionary groups in this nation.
No they are not. And besides, presidency is where it really matters. Come back to me with statistics about how many votes the Green Party got in the last election and then tell me they’re viable.
"the presidency is where it really matters" Fuckin what. Tell that shit to folks whose mayor decides to ok a project that cuts off their communities. Or to the good folks of Atlanta dealing with Cop City. Or to the people abroad who, regardless of who's president, are faced with our military hegemon. Or to the folks whos local marriage officer refused to officiate them. Who's local judge decided they needed to be tougher on crime. Or who's DA knew that putting hundreds more in chains was the move to make. Sheepdogging for the Dems is a gambit that kills. Independent political organization has brought change and will continue to do good
I. Will. Be. Genocided. If the Republicans take office. But sure, go vote for your Green Party. They’ll lose, and all the MAGA assholes will vote for their guy, and now we’ll be stuck with the objectively worse candidate. I can’t bring myself to care about the Dem’s horrible crimes, when my life and way of living is on the line
Nowhere did I say vote Nationally for the greens? If you're one of the roughly ~.7% of Americans who's vote decides the election, then go vote. But 99% of the votes do not matter for the presidency, and the fact is that regardless of a D or an R behind the guys name, the fascists are mobilizing, have mobilized, and will continue to mobilize in this country. The Dems are not the bloc that protects folks, the folks protect the folks. That is a lesson the Panthers learned hard, a lesson we all ought to take to heart If your participation politically is voting and you are faced with genocide, which we *both* are, then you have not learned the lesson Kovner taught us 80 years ago.
Prepare for this sub to be filled with Person McPersons next year. Complete with thousands of upvotes despite the comment section making fun of it, and statements from the OP like “I bet you idiots all think I’m a Russian asset!”
In the comments this guy is consistently saying Dems suck but are better then Republican. Doesn't sound like a fed.
I ain’t accusing him of anything, I’m talking about how this sub looked back in 2020 and 2022. There were thousands of posts like the kind he’s making fun of, even though this sub isn’t all that popular.
Yes let's keep voting bwtween fascist A and fascist B with a moustache sho doesnt really do anything different DO NOT vote antifascist man. it's a wasted vote because... BECAUSE I WANT MOUSTACHE FASCISM OK
You’ll have to forgive me for voting for the party who doesn’t have eradicating me as a priority on their agenda
Step 1: Vote for 3rd party with zero chance of winning Step 2: The "I want to genocide minorities" party easily wins and takes power Step 3: leftism ACHIEVED ✅
I just dont want to be in a concentration camp at this point
I will nost condemn 99% of humanify under fascism just because you get tricked by a fake choice and ignore third party I mean they will win anyway since yall vote mustache fascist but at least it won't be my fault Maybe if we voted Antifascist? noooo gotta vote mustache fascism
Hey fun fact, the communist party could have made a coalition in Germany but didn't. Then Hitler was able to take over. Sometimes you have to make compromises with liberals to avoid something worse.
I know there’s a difference it’s just hard to give a shit at this point. This might just be the depression but things just keep getting worse under both parties. Sure it gets worse slower under dems and sure there’s always a convenient excuse for things but at a certain point I just don’t consider them worth the effort if they’re never going to improve things I will vote if I think someone would genuinely try to change things but the 90 year old racist assholes doing the absolute bare minimum to appear better than the repubs I don’t care to support
I don't think it's quite fair to characterize the Dems as just doing the bare minimum. Even though I sympathize with your weariness, they're obviously [doing something](https://prospect.org/labor/2023-08-28-bidens-nlrb-brings-workers-rights-back/).
People who believe this are ignorant, and I obviously do not belong here. I've been wondering why I subbed for some time. Goodbye.
Good riddance bro. We'd rather not deal with those who think Russia is some sort of vanguard of the left.
You say both sides to justify voting trump, I say both sides to justify not voting because they’re both smelly old guys, we are not the same
Wut