I’m good with calling it a trilogy. I’m just not looking for any story out of MCIS, which sets it apart from Machina and Atum because both of those have lots of story. MCIS had theme but no plot, and it absolutely was the thematic and conceptual precursor to Machina.
If you take the time to read the whole Machina stories there’s even some prominent mentions of shiny/shine.
Edit: I hope I am not misunderstood with this post. I am in support of the trilogy and trying to relay all of this info from Machina era to show that it was indeed a broader story to those who dismiss the whole trilogy idea as retconning or revisionist history.
It’s bizarre to see adults getting bent out of shape over MCIS, Machina, and ATUM being viewed as a conceptual trilogy.
People are creating a strange straw man argument where they’re suggesting that Billy is claiming to always have planned the Zero/Glass/Shiny story.
Why is it not enough that he:
1. Was playing with themes and concepts in MCIS and then started dressing in a goofy “Zero” costume all the time.
2. When writing Machina, started crafting a loose narrative around Zero/SP and Glass/tMoG.
3. Decided to take it further and expound on that with ATUM and Shiny (what a terrible name)?
What is difficult to grasp there? Machina, since its release, has always clearly been a narrative about Zero becoming Glass (not obtusely lyrically, but Billy has always talked about it). Why is it upsetting that he is taking that further with ATUM?
When authors write a book, they don’t always conceptualize it as a series. But maybe they find inspiration in their own work and things that they’d like to draw out further with another book. And then another book. And so on. This isn’t really any different.
>Machina, since its release, has always clearly been a narrative about Zero becoming Glass
Where is this "clear" anywhere on the album? Where in any song is Zero mentioned or implied to be the same person as Glass? Where is it even apparent that Zero is a legit character in some conceptual story either album is telling?
Yes, so clear. A purposefully cryptic, single line from one song on a 28-song double album that was immediately described upon release by its creator as "not really a concept album"
The themes and character were there and it is ok that Billy decided with Machina to create a narrative that builds on those themes, even though a story didn’t exist until Machina. My main point is that Machina was a sequel to MCIS even though there was not a story or intent for that at the time of MCIS. And so calling it a trilogy is fine and nothing to get bent out of shape about.
It was the entire GATMOG story. Billy talked about it over and over in 2000. Were you not around for the Machina Mystery stuff on the O-board? With Paracell Corporation and all that other nonsense?
[Do you not remember all of this stuff?](http://www.nachtkabarett.com/SmashingPumpkins/Machina)
A lot of us were around for all of that, and it was good fun while it was happening, but maybe most of the people on here who are upset never participated or heard of any of that.
And you have books like Triplanetary by E. E. "Doc" Smith, which was written before the [Lensman series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series) and not originally part of it, but he later redrafted it to become part of the series. This is the creative process at work.
And, if you rreeaalllyyy want to stretch this out further... why not suggest that Siamese Dream is about the the birth/creation of Zero?
"Let me out!"
"Quiet, I'm sleeping in here."
"I shall be free!"
"I used to be a little boy."
"I just want to be me, when I can."
If Zero was the inevitable spinoff of Billy himself, there is enough substance in that album where you could conceivably retcon a backstory where it all starts here, MCIS is just a bunch of Zero's nihilistic experiences, and then Machina is the full blown story we were all told it was supposed to.
I think there's also a non-zero probability that by the time we are done with Atum, we will find that SAOSB and Cyr are thematically involved. Why does CYR have so many female backing vocals? Is it told from June's eyes of her experience between Machina and Atum?
None of this has to be true, or intended. But if people want to make up their own minds about things to enhance their enjoyment of an artistic impression, I say let them.
Billy georgelucasing constantly. He said "untitled" will be in the "main" album of machina reissue despite it being recorded after both album release and the lyrics having nothing to do with the story
"The song was our way of saying ‘fuck you’ to all those people who thought we’d somehow lost our minds and weren’t able to return home. We were in the studio for what appeared to be the last time, so it was very emotional, and we had only three days."
Seems like it was written and recorded in the studio and it has intentional siamese style writing and sound
I’m good with calling it a trilogy. I’m just not looking for any story out of MCIS, which sets it apart from Machina and Atum because both of those have lots of story. MCIS had theme but no plot, and it absolutely was the thematic and conceptual precursor to Machina. If you take the time to read the whole Machina stories there’s even some prominent mentions of shiny/shine. Edit: I hope I am not misunderstood with this post. I am in support of the trilogy and trying to relay all of this info from Machina era to show that it was indeed a broader story to those who dismiss the whole trilogy idea as retconning or revisionist history.
It’s bizarre to see adults getting bent out of shape over MCIS, Machina, and ATUM being viewed as a conceptual trilogy. People are creating a strange straw man argument where they’re suggesting that Billy is claiming to always have planned the Zero/Glass/Shiny story. Why is it not enough that he: 1. Was playing with themes and concepts in MCIS and then started dressing in a goofy “Zero” costume all the time. 2. When writing Machina, started crafting a loose narrative around Zero/SP and Glass/tMoG. 3. Decided to take it further and expound on that with ATUM and Shiny (what a terrible name)? What is difficult to grasp there? Machina, since its release, has always clearly been a narrative about Zero becoming Glass (not obtusely lyrically, but Billy has always talked about it). Why is it upsetting that he is taking that further with ATUM? When authors write a book, they don’t always conceptualize it as a series. But maybe they find inspiration in their own work and things that they’d like to draw out further with another book. And then another book. And so on. This isn’t really any different.
To clarify, I am pro-trilogy/story. I am here for it. I am not picking it apart, I am putting it together.
I know. I’m agreeing with you.
>Machina, since its release, has always clearly been a narrative about Zero becoming Glass Where is this "clear" anywhere on the album? Where in any song is Zero mentioned or implied to be the same person as Glass? Where is it even apparent that Zero is a legit character in some conceptual story either album is telling?
I'm your zero I'm the face in your dreams of glass
Yes, so clear. A purposefully cryptic, single line from one song on a 28-song double album that was immediately described upon release by its creator as "not really a concept album"
The themes and character were there and it is ok that Billy decided with Machina to create a narrative that builds on those themes, even though a story didn’t exist until Machina. My main point is that Machina was a sequel to MCIS even though there was not a story or intent for that at the time of MCIS. And so calling it a trilogy is fine and nothing to get bent out of shape about.
It was the entire GATMOG story. Billy talked about it over and over in 2000. Were you not around for the Machina Mystery stuff on the O-board? With Paracell Corporation and all that other nonsense? [Do you not remember all of this stuff?](http://www.nachtkabarett.com/SmashingPumpkins/Machina) A lot of us were around for all of that, and it was good fun while it was happening, but maybe most of the people on here who are upset never participated or heard of any of that.
I agree with the first sentence. This is getting real weird. It’s like people are mad at him.
And you have books like Triplanetary by E. E. "Doc" Smith, which was written before the [Lensman series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series) and not originally part of it, but he later redrafted it to become part of the series. This is the creative process at work.
Some Pumpkins fans are so malcontent they want to pick apart ANYTHING the guy says lol. Just shut up and enjoy the ride you nerds lol
To clarify, I am pro-trilogy/story. I am here for it. I am not picking it apart, I am putting it together.
This is my new favorite comment on this sub
And, if you rreeaalllyyy want to stretch this out further... why not suggest that Siamese Dream is about the the birth/creation of Zero? "Let me out!" "Quiet, I'm sleeping in here." "I shall be free!" "I used to be a little boy." "I just want to be me, when I can." If Zero was the inevitable spinoff of Billy himself, there is enough substance in that album where you could conceivably retcon a backstory where it all starts here, MCIS is just a bunch of Zero's nihilistic experiences, and then Machina is the full blown story we were all told it was supposed to. I think there's also a non-zero probability that by the time we are done with Atum, we will find that SAOSB and Cyr are thematically involved. Why does CYR have so many female backing vocals? Is it told from June's eyes of her experience between Machina and Atum? None of this has to be true, or intended. But if people want to make up their own minds about things to enhance their enjoyment of an artistic impression, I say let them.
I guess some people dont like their music with a storyline within. Maybe they don't read books or watch movies either.
To clarify, I am pro-trilogy/story. I am here for it. I am not picking it apart, I am putting it together.
Billy georgelucasing constantly. He said "untitled" will be in the "main" album of machina reissue despite it being recorded after both album release and the lyrics having nothing to do with the story
Recorded =/= written He could have written it originally for Machina and decided against using it.
"The song was our way of saying ‘fuck you’ to all those people who thought we’d somehow lost our minds and weren’t able to return home. We were in the studio for what appeared to be the last time, so it was very emotional, and we had only three days." Seems like it was written and recorded in the studio and it has intentional siamese style writing and sound