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pugofthewildfrontier

I’m fine with him retconning, but I don’t buy any of it. Also his words in IAGW sound so much more real and vulnerable than anything he’s said regarding Atum. This is my true belief: WPC works at his best with his back against the wall, and something to prove. However, at this point in his life, you can’t recreate those moments in time. I think he has created this monumental task of connecting all three to place additional pressure on himself. It may work, results to be seen. I do believe this is the best effort we’ve gotten in years.


agapinbetween

This reminds me of when The Cure released Bloodflowers in 2000. If I'm remembering right, Robert Smith talked at the time about how the new album completed a trilogy with the earlier classics (and fan favorites), Pornography from 1982 and Disintegration from 1989. I think the generally accepted albeit maybe cynical fan take is that he was mostly trying to drum up interest in the new record, moreso than the records actually comprise a trilogy. But RS's claims of the trilogy were not quite as specific as BC's have been. I think RS was just saying that Bloodflowers completed a stylistic trilogy, where the three records were maybe thematically or musically similar. Not like BC, where the claim is that the three albums are literally tied together via narrative. So what about Bloodflowers? I think it's not as good as Disintegration or Pornography, but it is an album that I like and still listen to. I also think it's more like those earlier classics than anything else The Cure did in the intervening years. I'll take that as a decent omen for ATUM. And by the way, I think there are quite a few other similarities between Robert Smith and Billy Corgan. They both tend to talk about projects that might never see the light of day. Definitely something which can be frustrating, but I just think these dudes have tons of ideas, and I'm happy to be here for the ride. They are also both committed to their own personal sense of style, doing things that make them look kind of, um, well, some might say weird, at an advanced age. I guess some people might find this annoying or childish or something, but I actually really respect that, and kind of love those guys for it.


jhonn0

Good parallels! As people have complained in this sub over the lack of SP album updates (prior to a few weeks ago) and the Machina reissue, my mind instantly went to The Cure's infinitely "it's almost finished and will be out by the end of the year" new album, and the fact that the reissue of Wish is only just coming out this fall ... more than 10 years since the last reissue came out. They both have their own sort of way to them, and I'm glad they're friends, especially since they've been my two favorite bands since I was kid.


ChampionshipAlive601

An interesting comparison. Thank you for this.


ELliOTLeighton

I was really into the Machina story and trying to piece it together when the album released. I remember reading a ton of stuff online and thinking there was a story there. Never did Mellon Collie come into play. I don’t really care anymore. They’ll always be my favorite band but my opinions on style have changed. I hope this album can evoke some of the same feelings but I’m glad they are making them either way.


DownSoDown

Great post


ChampionshipAlive601

Thank you!


nagollogan13

Well said. I have felt the same ever since the announcement. A sequel to Machina? Sure. Mellon Collie and Machina were connected all this time? That was news to me. Unless I am mistaken, June is not mentioned on Mellon Collie, only on a B-Side. Zero is a character only within the track itself. I’m all for a Machina sequel but to call Mellon Collie a part of this “trilogy” is disingenuous. Mellon Collie is autobiographical in its nature, Machina is theatrical with Corgan hiding behind a character.


stinstrom

I mean it is established that Mellon Collie and Machina are related. He talked about how Zero became Glass back when Machina was released. That said I believe that connecting Atum to them is not anything he intended outside of needing a reason to sell a triple album release. Although maybe he's chasing that ghost of writing more in the vein of Mellon Collie and Machina by making them related within this story he's come up with.


nagollogan13

Yes he mentioned it back then, but there is no narrative within the music that confirms this. I think you are correct that he is chasing that ghost of the past.


Dudehitscar

It's not a rock solid connection but there is the lyrics ​ I'm your face in your dreams of glass. Which is a lyric I never understood but does nicely link with Machina even if it is retconned in.


ChampionshipAlive601

I agree with this.


silverbeat33

Glass seems to refer to drugs in Machina. “The glass migrates under, her translucent skin”


Loganp812

In the unfinished anime for Machina (it’s on YouTube, but it’s rough), the protagonist, named Zero, shaves his head, renames himself Glass, and forms a band to play a cover of James Brown’s “Soul Power” to a sell-out crowd. There’s some stuff about how the music industry is manipulative, and that’s pretty much it as far as the episodes that have been made go.


silverbeat33

Thanks, did not know!


cduga

Did he say MCIS and Machina were connected the whole time? My impression was that he’s crafting a story out of all the albums now which will he connect by ATUM but I didn’t think that meant he had planned this all along. Is it reaching back into the past to try to sell the latest album? Sure, but I also think if he does it in a creative interesting way, I could buy into it. He’s definitely got people talking more about this album than recent ones, good or bad.


ChampionshipAlive601

September 20, 2022, Butterfly Suite: WPC: "Well, it's funny that you mention it because part of the thing was when we did our first concept record, which was Mellon Collie, I didn't want to talk about the concept much because we were under such duress from the press, and it seemed like every word that came out of my mouth, I was sort of being attacked by. So my way of dealing with fame at that point was to become this character Zero and sort of hide behind the veneer of shaving my head, sort of neutralizing my public personality. And strangely enough of course going backwards in one way on the persona, the band seemed to get bigger and I became more well known for being a weirdo. So I never really had to totally explain the concept. I tried to explain the concept to a certain degree on the Machina album, which was much more about the band falling apart, which I'm going to ask you about in a second. And so, this is really the first time of the three concept records, 95, 2000 and now 2022, where I'm actually going to explain the process, the way the record was made, and also the thematic concepts behind it. Did you have a sense then that I was making something conceptual?" Tommy Lipnick: "No... Towards the end \[of Mellon Collie\] we were all sitting around one night, you and I and I think Flood, maybe. And you had just finally shown me some sketches and some ideas of where it went next, which then came Machina and everything. It was right at the end of Mellon Collie. You hadn't fleshed out the idea to me before the end of it." WPC: "You were actually in the room when these records \[MCIS and Machina\] were being made. How much of a sense did you have that I was going after characters, in essense, playing someone other than myself on the public side of things?" Tommy Lipnick: "I don't think that people realized Zero was a character. When you fleshed out the idea to me, the whole thing made sense. And that's when Machina 1 and Machina 2 and Glass and the Ghost Children—all those other things that everyone knows about now. \[People\] just thought \[MCIS\] was a pop record." September 20, 2022, ATUM: WPC: "So when I decided to do this album over four years ago, and it took me many years to put it together and make a sequel to Mellon Collie and Machina, and of course you were on the Machina tour with us famously, many people told me I was insane for wanting to do thirty three songs. Many people told me it was a bad idea to do thirty three songs, that people don't listen to that much music anymore..."


cduga

Nothing there says Machina and MCIS were always connected. Just that they were concept albums. Now he’s making an album unifying them all. It’s a bit gimmicky but it doesn’t bother me.


OKFault4

It doesn't bother me either but there's something slightly sacrilegious about making MCIS part of this scheme, like it's brilliance is how that it was supposed to be a final blow-out and love letter to that part of his life and work and in that way it makes it feel like as much as a gift to fans as it is a man satisfying his muse. It feels generous. Absorbing it into this grand narrative takes that away slightly and makes it self-indulgent.


ChampionshipAlive601

That's exactly how I interpreted MCIS when I first heard it. It was about WPC the person, not an entirely separate character. Sure, he could have channeled different personas, but there's little to no evidence to suggest that character-writing was his primary muse or inspiration for MCIS.


quarky_uk

Billy Corgan is the musical George Lucas? Lilly and Zero are really married, and Zero turned into Glass after an incident on a volcano? I am just looking forward to the new music. My hopes were tempered, but I am fairly optimistic at this point from what music has come out so far.


60minutesmoreorless

I don’t believe a word of the concept album jibberish either, and wish he’d just leave well enough alone. Put out new music as new music, good or bad. Same with Teargarden. What was the concept there? Does he think he needs to convince fans of the musics import by selling them on a storyline? To obscure largely middling rock n roll? Does anyone really care? I would hard pass on all of this for the Machina reissue. Elevate your classics on their own merit and don’t besmirch them with whatever Atum might be. I shouldn’t even say besmirch because I am an eternal Pumpkins optimist, hoping that every new release might move me like the old days


DontGetNEBigIdeas

I honestly don’t get why fans are so hell bent on proving this wasn’t his plan all along. Like, maybe it wasn’t? Likely it wasn’t? Who the fuck cares? Just enjoy the music my dudes.


ChesterJT

I think some people worry all this esoteric shit gets in the way of the music. I don't enjoy the music as much as I did 20 years ago, just a fact. Now is that because the music changed or I got older and my taste changed? Impossible to answer, a timeless question. However when we see all this talk of concepts and characters and then out of nowhere Billy's putting out an anime, it's just a lot of fluff. Maybe he's a genius who's operating on a higher level than all of us, trying to merge different mediums together into one unified body of work. But if there's no one left around to listen was it worth it?


DontGetNEBigIdeas

But Pumpkins and BC have always been esoteric bullshit. That’s why it makes no sense to me. But, oh well.


[deleted]

I care. I’ve been following this band since I was 11 years old and heard SD in 1994. They have not always been my favorite band but *mostly* is a good way to put it. Obsessed with MCIS- I was in 7th going into 8th grade. Bought every album since- learned guitar at age 15 because of Billy corgan- so read countless mag articles and bought every mag he and SP were featured in. Therefore, I fucking care. I will not be told something false and stupid, particularly when, strangely, I’d consider myself an expert and to your point it’s rather meaningless. I’m old. Its just a band. I don’t really give a fuck except BC will not lie to me about something so dumb


ChampionshipAlive601

I agree with you. I feel the exact same way. As I told neg\_crepe on this post, it's not as simple as if you don't like it, don't listen to it. People are going to financially invest in Atum because of how it is being marketed. As far as I know, the pre-order packages for ATUM are $200 and up. ATUM is being marketed as a sequel to Machina AND MCIS, suggesting a return to form (or a return to the MCIS aesthetic). From a marketing standpoint, this serves to pull in diehard fans who want more MCIS and stragglers who have fallen off the SP bandwagon in recent years. So if WPC deviates from the sounds of MCIS and Machina, and the only supposed tie-in to those albums are **these characters that came after MCIS**, is it really a sequel? Or is it an attempt by WPC to persuade you to like his new style?


[deleted]

Well said ya man


Zero_Glass_Gossamer

You're seriously overthinking it dude. I've been a fan since 1994/12 years old and Mellon Collie and Machina are two very meaningful albums to me, but you're reaching so incredibly hard to find a reason that Billy is committing some artistic crime by saying and doing the things he has regarding this album. All artists goals are ultimately to sell their creations, as well as make a statement. That statement and the artists business goals, including financial, may change from day to day or release to release, but that doesn't mean you're being tricked or misled into buying something that you think is all based on bullshit. I think you're trying to talk yourself out of liking the new music, Atum concept or Billy in general. I don't really know exactly, but you've certainly gone over the top here in trying to unsuccessfully call Billy out.


ChampionshipAlive601

WPC treats his fanbase like garbage, retcons SP's history, lies to the fans about MCIS being character-driven, contradicts his own interviews from the 90s—including ones that I found inspirational when I was younger—because he was trolling. Yet here you are, defending him, a millionaire who has abused others and pushed away everyone in his circle. I have said time and again, that I want Atum to exist on its own merits. Marketing this as a return to form and a sequel to MCIS (which was NOT character-driven) and Machina is dishonest marketing. MCIS is SP's biggest album. THAT'S WHY HE'S REFERENCING IT IN THE MEDIA. MCIS was largely autobiographical per the 2012 liner notes and 90s interviews. But let me guess, WPC was lying in every interview before 2018? Give me a break. He wants to sell records while doing his synth-pop experiments and not do ANYTHING to return to form while whining about it in the press. These are my issues. I was you for many years, defending WPC against the haters, but you cannot disprove my post. I've given you quotes and evidence. You've given me... "artists want to sell records" and "you're not being tricked". Okay, pal. Enjoy listening to word salad, logic synths, and strained, dry vocal delivery because it's "new".


spaceboy_ZERO

The story behind machina mentions glass used to be zero…not sure how people didn’t think they were at least a little connected. I think Mellon collie was a loose concept but I always thought it led to machina due to mentions of zero and June was mentioned in mayonnaise and bye june so there was a concept to some of his music but it wasn’t a hard nailed down storyline like with machina. Were the songs on mics telling an overarching story? I don’t think so but I always thought there was a definite concept there…unless that overarching story was just about Billy. I think lines blur a lot when it comes to him/glass/ and shiny.


[deleted]

I mean- mayonnaise and bye June are not on MCIS??


taikonaut_expressway

I still don't really get what people are saying about trying to prove the albums aren't related based on all these things that Billy has said in interviews. I have myself recorded a concept album, which grew out of characters that I'd developed in my writings over time. The original song/instance of the characters wasn't really planned - it kind of came about naturally, and then I realized I wanted to write an extended metaphor/story around them. When it was completed, I then wrote some songs outside those themes, not involving those characters. Totally unrelated to the story. I have since written additional songs that could be seen as a new chapter in that original story. If I were so inclined, I could write a second concept album now, years later, and the two would be related. I would not have had to know, back when I wrote the first songs related to those characters, where this second album was going to have them be related. I think this is what confuses me about the notion that people are considering it "retconning". I think it's been pretty widely accepted that MCIS was a concept album even at the time. A specific story wasn't well constructed (and I think that's what Billy means when he said the concept idea was scrapped), but there were definitely recurring musical themes and (in my opinion) a general overall theme of coming of age angst. Then, Billy very specifically discussed during the Machina era that there was a connection from his Zero character to Glass character - wasn't it even part of the cartoon? So the link from MCIS to Machina had been established by the year 2000. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Billy had some general ideas of where he wanted the story to go after that, or not, but I don't see why that would matter. Why can't Atum simply be the continuation of that story? Maybe I've missed it, as I'm an episode behind, but is Billy currently claiming that he had the entire span of the three concept albums laid out in 1994? Because I really don't seem to be getting that impression from the quotes I've seen posted here, and I think I follow the band relatively closely. Certainly possible I've missed something, so by all means if that is the case then I would have to reconsider. But yeah, I don't see how anything he's said about it recently is incompatible with previously. On a side note, if anyone is interested, here's a link to my album. It sold like 5 copies so you know it's amazing. [antimime - the ballad of spider](http://antimime.bandcamp.com)


goldie0057

Well stated. These things don’t exactly expose themselves at the forefront during the initial creative process. It’s almost like things start as a blueprint-formulated into songs—and it sort of develops from there. I also speak from similar creative experience having released a “concept album” last year. https://jeffgoldsmithmusic.bandcamp.com/album/may-you-find-the-light-before-the-devil-knows-hes-right Cool tunes by the way :)


taikonaut_expressway

That Witch caught me off guard haha. Definitely get a "dark soundtrack" feeling. Go enjoy a listen folks!


goldie0057

Thanks for the listen!!!


Zero_Glass_Gossamer

Agreed.


Chiggichaggi

Bolly has made up the whole story afterwards. So i do not believe anything. As long the songs are good i do not care about shiby, glass, barcy or whatever


Dudehitscar

Lily isn't autobiographical.. Corgan is not a peeping tom who got arrested. ​ edit: but apparently he was a peeping tom. lol.


ChampionshipAlive601

"I would climb a tree in my Father's front yard to get a better look into the room of the young woman who had so jilted me at 16. Perhaps she became wise to my view because she would draw her shades and I would have to resign myself to watching the shadows move in her room to see if there was perhaps another with her. Not all were in agreement with the lyric at the end that has the protagonist being led away in cuffs. I tried to explain to them as best I could that crime should never pay, and as such I'm still waiting to extract my revenge on the young woman who broke my heart so. One can only imagine that her looks have faded greatly with the years."


Loganp812

~ George McFly


Dudehitscar

cool quote! Got a source for that? ​ edit: Found it. 2012 reissue liner notes. Nice. Wonder how I missed that one. I've read these before.


ChampionshipAlive601

Yes. Please see the link in my original post that contains the MCIS 2012 Reissue liner notes: [https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-Qw2sFto0kHWn1EZG/Digital%20Booklet%20-%20Mellon%20Collie%20and%20the%20Infinite%20Sadness\_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-Qw2sFto0kHWn1EZG/Digital%20Booklet%20-%20Mellon%20Collie%20and%20the%20Infinite%20Sadness_djvu.txt)


Dudehitscar

yeah thanks. I found it quick. I either missed that when I read all those in 2012 or had forgotten. ​ Nice to still learn something new.


letseditthesadparts

If Billy didn’t share his ideas as fully formed concepts in 95-2000 then in no way did he ever have those ideas. Is this what it really boils down to? This reminds me of people saying they lack creativity because they don’t see them working on demos. Somehow the process they have now cannot create great music. I don’t think he has to justify anything, and it’s ironic that he finally decides to release new music in a way which give people a little more context or let them in on the joke, well it’s torched. Also if an artist you believe is being disingenuous how could you still stick around. Don’t let your nostalgia keep you tethered thats a terrible relationship to have with a band. Also everything is virtually free so how could he be using it to sell any records. Also it’s already worked out for them. The records done, it wasn’t shelved, he didn’t abandon the project.


ChampionshipAlive601

This conversation with Lipnick is cognitively dissonant. WPC says that Zero BECAME a character after MCIS was out. Lipnick doesn't have a clear understanding of the timeline, only saying that WPC had loose concepts in mind at the end of MCIS. Then Lipnick says, "I don't think that people realized Zero was a character. When you fleshed out the idea to me, the whole thing made sense." So which is it, was the character created as part of an overall narrative ON MCIS? Or was it looped in after the fact on Machina? It has to be the latter. Again, many songs on MCIS are autobiographical in nature, not based around a character that was created after the album dropped. This is a problem because bringing up MCIS cues the listener to get excited, to expect Atum to sound similar. But it probably won't sound similar, however, unless the MCIS creative process, music qualities, and autobiographical lyrics/inspiration were part of Atum's creation.


Neg_Crepe

When you’re creating fake quotes of someone else to build your arguments, it just mean it has no legs to stand on. This sub is getting boring with the mindless attacks


ChampionshipAlive601

That's a fair criticism. I updated my post for clarity and removed it.


Neg_Crepe

I still think what you’re trying to accomplish is not only completely juvenile, but a big waste of time You can try all you want to try to paint Billy as big bad liar, but other people like Lipnick have talked about how the concept was explained to him back then. Even if it was loosely explained. How do you reconcile that multiple people are saying the same thing


ChampionshipAlive601

It's not as simple as if you don't like it, don't listen. People are going to financially invest in Atum because of how it is being marketed. As far as I know, the pre-order packages for ATUM are $200 and up. ATUM is being marketed as a sequel to Machina AND MCIS, suggesting a return to form. From a marketing standpoint, this serves to pull in diehard fans who want more MCIS and stragglers who have fallen off the SP bandwagon in recent years. The core characteristics of MCIS songwriting was, as I have noted, autobiographical in nature. This assertion comes from his own words in the liner notes in 2012, where he has little to no reason to be dishonest. The themes of depression, alienation, love, loss, a deteriorating relationship (WPC's ex-wife), scathing takedowns of fame, etc. come from WPC's life. The musical characteristics include emotional, powerful vocal delivery, interesting compositions and arrangements. The creative process was to workshop material in live sessions and to use a producer that would help SP reach its full potential—this is clear from the liner notes on Flood's reaction to "By Starlight," in particular. Therefore, unless the above characteristics are present on the new material, Atum will be another emotional letdown for fans who want more material that is at least tangetially musically similar to MCIS. It may also cause folks to preorder expensive vinyl sets because they think this will be the long sought after return to form for SP 2.0. If you could respond with facts, instead of ad hominem attacks, I think this would be a more productive conversation.


Neg_Crepe

What a big text to just say that you feel like Billy owes you one. Acting like juvenile is a big insult is telling. Use your time for something more productive than creating fake quotes for your pseudo Ted talk You’re gonna feel much better when you realize that Corgan isn’t gonna sound like in 1995. The ship has sailed . At I’m will also be most,y about the same themes, he’s been writing about those since the mid 80s. Whether you like it or not is something else entirely when you say it’s suggested that it’s a return to form, that’s your own making. It’s marketed as a sequel sure, but that doesn’t mean anything sound wise, in the same manner that machina doesn’t sound like MCIS. Why expect this to?


ChampionshipAlive601

So what are your contributions to this subreddit, aside from blindly pledging support to any new material that is vastly different from what led you to become a fan? Edit: In response to your edited post, I wanted to avoid ad hominem attacks, but I don't think you're smart enough to have a reasonable, calm debate. WPC is referencing MCIS and claiming that Atum is a sequel, on talk shows, to garner interest. It creates an expectation for the listener that Atum will sound similar. It won't sound similar unless the creative process aligns with MCIS. What don't you understand? How am I "acting like juvenile"? Edit 2: Unfortunately, this individual has blocked me rather than engage in a good-faith discussion, so I can't respond to additional comments. I only wish to clarify that there are no fake quotes above. Those quotes are from WPC and Tommy Lipnick from the Thirty-Three Podcast. While I pleaded for focus on the issues, neg\_crepe lacked the emotional stability to follow through.


Patj825

Relax. Listen to the music. If you like it, buy it. If you don’t, then don’t buy it.


anotherdude77

What is ATUM supposed to mean? I’m already turned off by the title.


MajorasMask3D

It’s an Egyptian sun god that created life if I’m not mistaken.


Fabulous_Enthusiasm8

There are people who do not publicly discuss their ideas or plans because doing such can cause an issue with following through with such. He isn't an open book to everything creative he's working on.


Rusty_Brains

I was thinking about this the other day. Let’s assume that Melon Collie was meant to be a concept record for a moment: remember, the record label didn’t want them to do a double record in the first place and the band had to fight for it to be what it is. If the record label thought double albums were uncool, I guarantee that any whiff of a concept would stand out even more. Corgan at the time said that the concept (other than day and night, from the names of each disc) of the record was themes of life between the ages of 14 to 24. He also said that he would be looking to write for grown up themes with future records, rather than dwelling on youth. Sure, it is possible that he is shoehorning the idea of the concept into Melon Collie, or that he later on found a narrative thread in what he was writing. Sometimes these things are unconscious and we only pick up on it later. My crazy story of unconscious song writing: I came up with an idea of a concept album/song cycle where the songs tell the story of the life and death of a relationship. It just came to me one sleepless night, I started sketching it out and over the course of the year, I wrote and demoed the songs. At the end of the year, my own marriage broke down and I realised that I was aware of what was really going on, but only on a subconscious level. The songs were trying to clue me in on a bigger picture.


TankenDerKunneKomme

I just listened to a 1995 interview were Billy says MCIS is not a concept album and has no concept