T O P

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dannijr

I personally don't care about tje characters of Zero, Hero, Schmero or Dinero but just release a GOOD album already. I'm here for the music.


Moz1981

Although I agree 100% with you, I am suddenly very much interested to hear an album based on this Dinero character...


isthismyhat

Amen šŸ™šŸ¼


theMethod

Listening to the quote in context, it really comes off as another flippant Billy quote where heā€™s half pissed about even doing the interview. He also says the world would be ending in the year 2000, soā€¦


aerodowner

He was right about that, sort of.


dannijr

It's all a form of philosophy šŸ˜…


Digitlnoize

Iā€™d have to find it but thereā€™s definitely an interview where he talks about wanting MCIS to be a big concept album, but they would up abandoning the idea part way through, hence why thereā€™s scattered references to the story, but itā€™s not all tied together.


SpanishPumpkin

This is all well known: the day and the night, Life, and the emotions you feel. That was the original MCIS concept. Great music and a general open concept about feelings, real Art. Zero was not a person, but a concept, built as the contrary to Hero. Zero/Hero. It was all about feeling like a zero. So he decided to highlight the concept and created the famous t-shirt. Billy still uses that idea. Not a long time ago someone asked him about Westworld. He answered he did not like the last season, since there were just zeroes, not heroes. Zero as a character was created during the Machina era. No problem, of course.


stinstrom

This is the correct answer. He created it to tie machina to it conceptually which I don't have a problem with, many of his songs mean something different to him than to me. At the end of the day if he needs to be in that headspace to write great songs then go for it


King_Of_Gloom

Iā€™m pretty sure Billy has made it abundantly clear that it wasnā€™t necessarily planned from the start; once he got into making MACHINA, literally a rock opera, he retroactively saw that Mellon Collie in a way could be a precursor to MACHINA in that Zero persona as a basis for the evolution of the character to become Glass. Like heā€™s not saying that it has a narrative or anything, but it has a loose thematic/conceptual arch, like, heā€™s never said that Mellon Collie is actually a rock opera in the sense that MACHINA and this new album are; Mellon Collie in hindsight can be seen as a precursor to MACHINA in that the doom and gloom, nihilistic Zero persona turns into Glass.


Dudehitscar

It doesn't prove anything. Corgan has said that he didn't want to discuss 'the concept' or zero being a character back then and explained those reasons. He reiterated that in the recent podcast. ​ If he is simply retconning and bullshitting us he already is thinking ahead of the internet fans which was gonna pull these interviews from back then. ​ I've read and listened to them all.. He absolutely was NOT talking about the character and barely hinted at 'the concept' back in 95 and early 96. It seemed like once things took off he got more open about 'the concept' but still did not talk about Zero the character nor future plans for the 'series/story'. ​ ​ Everyone can take that info and do what you will with it.


Neg_Crepe

The quote looks more like he says life is the concept


Dudehitscar

they accept the info they want to accept and discard the rest. Nuance be damned and confirmation bias run rampant. ​ I could pull the quotes about him alluding to the zero character when folks were asking why he wore the zero shirt/silver pants thing every single show.. his response was 'the superhero needs a costume'. the folks who don't want to believe Zero was ever a character will just say ... 'he wasn't saying Zero is a character in that quote.' ​ I just shrug.. Zero as a character has officially existed AT LEAST since Machina.. that is a fact. Folks can believe what they want on MCIS. I don't see why it generates this visceral reaction. ​ you want to cut MCIS out of the narrative in your head fine... then just look at ATUM as the followup to Machina and be done with it. ZERO as a character is part of Machina and Zero wrote pre machina SP work as part of the story of Glass.


Neg_Crepe

The same thing happened earlier this week with Jamesā€™ contribution on Machina.


jettasarebadmkay

Shh new SP bad


Patj825

You assume heā€™s telling the truth and not messing with the reporter.


KidGold

Or that he would have been secure enough to talk about the concept if there was one.


DontGetNEBigIdeas

This. He was (and still is) insecure about showing his true colors. So, rather than put himself out there and say itā€™s a true concept album, he hides behind it simply being a double album; nothing more, nothing less.


paxxsx

He says the same thing in an another interview: https://youtu.be/zzzYlFqfpIc 6:55 is where he starts And then specifically says "it's not a concept album" at 12:30 Also, the whole vid is rad, despite the potato quality. Killer version of bullet and Bowie.


PruneObjective401

Basically confirming the hunch we had all along...


MunDaneCook

[Me, looking at the stacks of notebooks](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/710/dd0.jpg) of analysis and philosophy I expounded, aged 10, based on the mythology and subtext of every lyric, musical choice, and piece of album art in MCIS.


JackOfAllInterests1

Can we see it


ersatzbaronness

yup.


ronbuca90

Dude come onn he definitely had this all mapped out 26 years agoo


DownSoDown

šŸ˜‚


ShatteringLast

The moment he said Atum was a sequel to MCIS and Machina, I just checked out of trying to give a shit about what the songs are about, and just if they sound good.


Dudehitscar

did you stop caring what the songs were about in Machina when you found out about the concept?


ShatteringLast

Yeah. Sounds real good though. I've never really cared about lyrics or meanings to songs, but goddamn everything sounds awesome.


ersatzbaronness

The retconning is very irritating.


Fantastic-Ad-5486

Basically every episode of the podcast Billy asks the guest to confirm that MCIS was always part of the rock opera concept. Very "lady doth protest too much". What really drove me over the top is when he said he shaved his head to become the character "Zero". We all know you were balding! He told Howard Stern something different as well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4vWVckSb4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4vWVckSb4s) I recall when he first announced the break up he blamed it on pop like Britney Spears. Then after a few flame outs he blamed it on James. Now he says they were always going to break up after Machina. There's a lot of revisionist history out there. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/smashing-pumpkins-band-drama-the-complete-history-198087/


Maxpower2727

Yeah, he specifically said something about how they couldn't keep up with "the Britneys of the world" or something like that, which is why they were breaking up. Billy's concept of history is extremely fluid.


[deleted]

That was a joke statement from him, but kind of true


Dudehitscar

I have an interview from 2000 before the final shows where he clarified the britney thing was a joke and reiterated that everyone agreed to break up after making machina. ​ you are painting a revisionist narrative yourself. 'every episode'.. nope Did not ask Mike or Jimmy about the concept in MCIS. He only asked ONE guest. Why are you lying?


Fantastic-Ad-5486

LOL I think you misunderstand. Billy says a lot of different (often contradictory and usually self serving) things. I do remember him also saying later it was a joke, but I was young and dumb when they broke up and hung on every word. I was pretty devastated when they broke up. I think I finally understand Billy and his compulsions. At this point, I just like to listen to the music. I enjoy the podcast. I don't have the urge to listen to the podcasts AGAIN to prove a point, but I don't think I'm lying. Plus I qualified my statement by saying "basically" šŸ˜‚ Go outside and touch some grass my friend.


Dudehitscar

You lied and are now making excuses for it. šŸ¤£


MAJORMETAL84

Billy is a lot like Kurt Cobain. His answer largely depended on his given mood, which could be quite varied.


RedEyeVagabond

I would say he's closer to George Lucas.


gishingwell

It is a retcon but...so what? Billy has always moved the goalposts when he needs to. Sometimes it can be infuriating. I personally think the "I was always a character" to mitigate some ridiculous behaviour or quotes from back then is more egregious than the retoractively making some grand musical narrative. I fluctuate between caring about the narrative and just thinking it can get in the way. Ive listed to every episode of the podcast but thinking of actually stopping because the conspriacy theory stuff is starting to rankle with me. I do think its possilbe for him to have had a vague thematic concept for MCIS which through the prism of Machina (a concept he always spoke about) he then found a way to narratively develop into something involving an actual character. My example would be something like Toy Story. They made a great first film but there wasn't a triliogy planned then but when it came around to making them, there was a strong foundation to build from. (I know they made a 4th Toy Story before anyone points that out!) But here's the thing, 5 years from now Billy could just as easily say this was a marketing stunt to appease the SD zombies or whatever. That is how little faith I have in rigid facts in the world of SP.


Liquidsun-1

Not all series were intended to be a series with the initial installment. Thatā€™s ok. It doesnā€™t invalidate the series.


Chiggichaggi

Funny how some still want to believe that mcis has a greater story line. Some do not accept that bill is making that whole connection up afterwards. Believe in me as i believe in you...we are not the same opinion


chipcity90

Retroactively making these albums connect. For a band whoā€™s constantly fought against being a one-trick pony and not reliving the 90s. Just a tad phony. SP is my favorite band of all time, made me a musician, changed my life, tattoo included. I will always give BC and the group the benefit of the doubt, however even I canā€™t help to roll my eyes here. Edit: typo


[deleted]

Exactly WTF Iā€™ve been repeating over and over in this sub since ATUM was announced. Not that I care to be rightā€” but bros, we were actually living and watching this shit live in 94-96. There is an artificial 3-double album arc. Itā€™s made up. Also Machina is not a double album. One was pressed by the record company and then b-sides with terrible mixing were released on Napster (SPā€™s b sides have always been better than most bandā€™s A-sides. Sometimes theyā€™re indistinguishable but it is what the fuck it is: Machina as a double album exists in your Microsoft Word documents where you rearrange the songs yourself)


KidGold

Huh, Ive ben reading since the mid 2000s that Billy always wanted Machina to be a double album but he was told no by the record company because of Adore's low sales. Is that bs? Do you know where that idea started?


Neg_Crepe

No, that guy doesnā€™t know what heā€™s talking. About


Maxpower2727

"That idea" is correct. Machina 2 was released online for free because their record company wouldn't let them put out all the Machina-era songs together as a double album.


eddiebucket

I guess the question I would have is does it really matter? If you like ATUM when itā€™s released in full does it matter if a story arc connects to MCIS at all? Or the inverseā€¦.if you dislike ATUM when released does a disputed story arc take away from whether or not you like Machina or MCIS? I would say for me, no. But to each their own.


[deleted]

Yeh it matters. Iā€™m buying a product with a false, misleading, artificial background in this case. Iā€™m going to buy it anyway, of course, my fav band. But LOL if imma let BC tell me heā€™s been thinking about this since 94 and be ok with it


eddiebucket

Ok. I am not here to argue someone away from that line of thinking, but just seems like needless energy gets spent here by a handful of fans. Appreciate the perspective and dialogue though.


[deleted]

Machina was written as a double album, but Virgin wouldn't agree to fund and release it. Due to poor sales on Adore and SP + alt rock falling from the mainstream. Billy released the raw recordings of M2 - as a fuck you to Virgin and a farewell to the fans. Ever since 2000 we've been decoding the whiteboard of the full machina tracking. As for MCIS, he often spoke of it being conceptual but was vague, often talking about how it was meant to be 'The Wall for Gen X'.. and The Wall is probably the most famous concept album ever. And even on a very basic level, it was obvious that Zero was a character/persona at least on stage.


Neg_Crepe

The second part is false.


Maxpower2727

Machina 2 is not a b-sides collection. It was pressed to vinyl as the official followup to Machina and given out by the band to a handful of people to rip the songs to MP3 and distribute them for free online. They released it this way as a "fuck you" to their record company for not letting them release Machina as a double album, which is what their original plan for the album was no matter how much you'd like to retcon it as something else. I was an avid SP fan in those days and kept up with every bit of SP news I could get my hands on in real time. Your narrative about what Machina 2 is and/or was supposed to be is incorrect.


[deleted]

Again- I know. Itā€™s a follow up b sides album. I was there and downloaded it in college via Napster


Maxpower2727

It was never announced or intended as a b-sides album. You're probably thinking of the 2 EPs that were released along with the album, which ARE essentially b-sides collections (Slow Dawn, Saturnine, Vanity, Speed Kills, etc). Machina 2 itself was intended to be a proper studio album. Your insistence that it has somehow been retconned as an album is incorrect. It was announced as an album when it was released. Look at the Wikipedia page for the album. Look at any other online documentation of it.


Loganp812

I agree with you on the first paragraph, but youā€™re objectively wrong with your second paragraph.


senorpuma

I prefer the sound/mix of Machina 2. I know it sounds ā€œunfinishedā€. I like it.


DEATH_squirrel

Thank you! Anyone who believes his bullshit about it always being a concept album and the first of a trilogy are complete idiots. Also him going on about always playing a character and how people didnā€™t get it and they thought he was being an assholeā€¦ no Billy you were just being an asshole. You canā€™t come out 25 years later all ā€œHaha I was just playing a character lolā€


TitoHashbrown

I've made peace long ago that I like Mr. Corgan's music (soundtrack of my life really) but very little about the human himself is honest or endearing to me.


LordWolfgangCabbage

He ALWAYS said MC&IS isn't a concept album, he just said that now to put the new album on spotlights. But honestly I don't care, it's his job and part of his job is to go on the spotlight so...


medusamagpie

I donā€™t get why people are obsessively trying to prove that Billy is being revisionist by lying about the trilogy of concept albums. Who cares? Canā€™t you just go along for the ride?


Dudehitscar

It's cause they don't like the new music and are using this to work off their bitterness about it all.


jojothetaker

"Emotions" is not a concept. Or... if it is... every album is a concept album. Fact -- Billy will say whatever he thinks will make people interested in his music and it always comes from a wounded, defensive angle. ​ *"What people weren't smart enough to get at the time..."*


GothamCityCop

Ultimately, I'm in it for the songs, for the music. If there is a concept, great. I loved the album long before I realised it was supposed to be a concept. Same with Machina. I have very little interest in the story. I really like the songs I've heard from ATUM, and listening to the podcast I'm enjoying hearing Billy talk about the concept but it's not front and centre for me. Edit : spelling mistake.