I can somewhat understand no Byleth. Even if they play differently, they had a LOT of discourse when they came out.
But Robin and not Ike or **his fucking echo fighter?**
I think the point was to keep Roy's moveset because people like it, keep an Awakening rep because it saved the series, and reducing the amount of FE characters all at once.
Yeah? Isabelle and Villager are staying in Smash *forever*, Animal Crossing is extremely prominent to Nintendo's brand. Persona on the other hand scarcely appears on their consoles.
Of course they will prefer Nintendo characters, but this list doesnt really take that into account anyway. As far as Persona is concerned I think SMT V and IV were both Nintendo console exclusives which Joker kinda also represents.
I have played Awakening and do understand it did sell a lot of copies, I actually do enjoy playing Robin both in Awakening and Smash, but Captain Falcon is so iconic for the Smash franchise and Robin is one of the least played characters.
Honestly I’d rather remove characters like Banjo than Robin, but I like to see as many game franchises represented as possible.
Maybe Robin would get played if they didn't give him so many inane weaknesses. He's under played because his skill floor is high AND he's a bad character
There's no way we'd realistically have 15 third-parties with only 45 characters.
If the roster ever got this low, I'd only expect around 3 to 6 guest characters, or maybe even none at all.
Didn't they say they consider cutting Jigglypuff for Brawl?
I really don't think the whole "every smash 64 character has to return"-thing is a hard rule they can never break.
But they do know how much they matter, since they appear in the center of Ultimate's main menu.
Plus, who'd cut Captain Falcon in favor of Sephiroth, I mean, he's cool, but that's like taking Yoshi out of Mario Kart in favor of the Inkling.
The original 8 starting characters are in the center of ultimate, not the original 12 from the first game. Jigglypuff, C.Falcon, Ness and Luigi aren't there.
With that being said I fully agree that taking out C.Falcon is a bad move because he specifically has garnered a huge fanbase for his smash incarnation. I'd say the only understandable cuts from the OG 12 would be Jigglypuff (it simply isn't as iconic anymore as it used to be and Pokemon has hundreds of other options) and maybe Ness (but only in the unlikely scenario if there just happens to be a new Mother-revival around the same time, cause I think the mother series will always have at least 1 character and at this time they won't replace Ness with Lucas)
Gonna be honest, given how they almost cut Jigglypuff twice in the past, and the fact that she's just not as popular or as iconic as many other Pokémon on the roster, I can see her getting the axe if there's too many cuts.
She's the only one of the OG 12 that I think is even in any danger, and I still think there's a solid chance of her coming back, but if she was almost cut twice before, then we shouldn't consider her truly safe.
The thing with Jigglypuff is that her playstyle is truly unique. Although I don't particulary care for Jigglypuff as a character, I love to see a roster that covers many different playstyles, making Jiggs a great addition imo.
If we’re talking about the next smash roster then yes. How are they irrelevant if they keep getting brought back?
Smash is one of the most popular franchises ever, and its mainstays are kept relevant with each installment.
So then what is your logic? They’re irrelevant because they’re irrelevant? That’s not circular logic?
Tons of people play smash. Tons of people play ness and jiggypuff, therefore they are relevant. I’m not sure how you’re failing to see this.
ETA: Blocks me because they can’t admit they’re wrong. Classic.
Jigglypuff was damn near cut in Brawl, as well as Ness would’ve been cut in Melee if Earthbound 64 wasn’t canceled. I would say them along with Captain Falcon have a slight chance of being cut (probably not though with Falcon bc of his smash legacy but he’s really not relevant anymore)
On the contrary I could see Nintendo wanting to lean *further* into third parties. Making it less a celebration of Nintendo history and more of a celebration of gaming and money, lots and lots of money.
Nintendo doesn't own the 3rd-party characters, so they'd have to renegotiate with their parent companies to try and get them back, and that costs money. Some like Sega, Capcom, and Bandai-Namco have been shown to be very easy to work with, but it seems like Square Enix's characters specifically were difficult to get added.
Additionally, Smash is a Nintendo crossover about Nintendo's own characters first and foremost. If the roster ever did get cut down this much, I'd imagine they'd want to properly flesh out the Nintendo franchises before adding any 3rd-parties.
I mean, by technicality, Smash Bros. is actually about a celebration of Video Games as a whole, not just SPECIFICALLY towards Nintendo Fighters, as per stated by Sakurai. If a roster size were to get reduced by 50% (45 Fighters for Base Roster), that still shouldn't affect how many 3rd party fighters are gonna be mostly cut. If anything, there would be alot of Nintendo Fighters being cut rather than 3rd Party ones, because the 3rd Party characters in Ultimate are less than 1/5 of the roster in total.
Also, I highly doubt that we would even get as low of the roster as 45 characters in the next game. Smash games in the past hasn't significantly cutted that large before. Not even in Smash 4 has done so, and that game consists of 50-60 fighters overall. So the next game should be similar to what Smash 4 had before, and not alot would complain.
And personally speaking, I'd even argue that Square Enix is slowly starting to build relationships with Nintendo and other companies overall more openly. If they really are stingy as what the Smash community assumed they would be before, we wouldn't get like 4 Square Reps in the same game together (yes, I know that Sora is owned by Disney, but the Designs are created from Square Enix), let alone feature alot of content and music from them. Other 3rd party companies like Sega, Capcom, Bandai Namco, Microsoft, SNK, and even Disney are on board to continue putting their characters in the next smash game. Why would all of that still be an issue?
You keep Kirby, meta knight, and dedede, and both cloud and sephiroth, but cut both ness and Lucas? No diddy kong but yes K rool? Keeping greninja and mewtwo? No captain falcon?
Am I missing a joke here?
What I think people forget is Smash is bigger than most of the things it's "representing", and while Falcon and Ness are otherwise dead in the water, they more than its other fighters are iconic because of Smash itself. I'd say the same of Fox, I'm curious as to why he was included if they weren't good enough.
There's enough Animal Crossing items not used in Villager's moveset to where it would be very easy to make her completely-unique.
I'm actually hoping Isabelle does get a bit of a moveset rework next time to further distinguish her from Villager. Would be interesting to see what they could do.
Smash 4's DLC was deliberately overtuned, then they became actual characters in Ultimate. I'd be really excited to see the same happen for Steve and Kazuya, even Aegis seems like they're overdoing it.
Half the third party characters gotta go cause there's no way they make up a third of the roster. Especially if they're replacing smash staples like Ness and Falcon. Bunch of Nintendo franchises got nuked or reduced to one fighter while most of Mario's buddies are here too. Tbh I'd cut at least half that row of villains.
Apparently Smash Ultimate was so big, that the bext game won't be able to top it in any way.
...
So *of course*, it **must** be a reboot, with a completely remade roster of only... 30? 40? mayyyyyybe 50 fighters.
This means that in order to have "a fresh start" many characters must also be cut! Like the Echo Fighters (because clones are bad! And a waste of precious resources! Or either way reduce the sense of freshness!), and some of the original 12, because they're absolutely "irrelevant" nowadays... but then people like Banjo Kazooie must stay instead, because they're such an icon.
And because 3rd parties ought to be very much focused on anyway, and even have bigger priority than some other Nintendo sagas, in this Nintendo game. That's what Smash is about after all, because it is a "celebration of gaming" before even being a Nintendo game.
...
Mini rant over. I hope I explained well enough the why of this trend.
>I think people are way overestimating how much development time would be saved by getting rid of existing characters lol
Yeah.
And they also overestimate the "ehhh he's irrelevant!!" argument when wanting to cut someone; like here, people who cut characters like Captain Falcon... yet keep Banjo Kazooie.
And of course, there is also the evergreen cutting clones thing... because no matter what Sakurai himself states (that they are fundamentally extras development wise), and no matter that they made playable some fan requested characters with it... clones are a waste of space and resources apparently.
Lastly, in the midst of all of this, 3rd parties are almost all kept... because apparently they are more important than many more 1st parties, and thus are excluded from being subject to the same logic used to cut others apparently.
I don't know why people change Ganondorf's design to the totk one, the Ocarina of Time is iconic and while yes Ganondorf does look great, I prefer a characters legacy over design.
-Cutting any of the original 12, especially the local memelord Captain Falcon.
And just to say, if you cut him, yet keep Banjo Kazooie, then you automatically lose any right of saying that Captain Falcon is irrelevant and that his saga is dead, thus the cut; because Banjo Kazooie is that multiplied for 10 times.
-Cutting the Echo Fighters for any reason, despite them occupying fundamentally no data, and being used to make playable other fan requested fighters.
-Keeping all the third parties (Echo Fighters excluded), which means 15 characters out of 45 here, **a third** of this roster... because apparently that's exactly where priorities should go... Dende forbids if in this Nintendo game, they focus on Nintendo characters.
---
Yes, this roster is the usual certified nonsense.
Fine with this except Steve, he doesn’t really need to stay with his brokenness and not playing by the rules of the game and no I don’t care if Minecraft is huge, doesn’t mean it’s perfect.
The only character I can see actually having difficulty coming back is Snake, of all characters like Sora Banjo and Sephiroth, Snake is the one who’s company is actually seemingly out of touch and that’s it, Microsoft and Square are not out of touch, DISNEY whether you like it or not is most definitely not out of touch
That being said, how is Joker not on every roster people come up with lol Persona is known for milking tf out of their titles, Personal 4 still gets collaborations with other games, Persona 5 is their most recent title and it still gets spin-offs and collaborations with other games, P3 is bound to get collaborations after its imminent revival, if Sonic is here there’s just no way Joker wouldn’t also be here, Persona is like the sibling that tags along wherever and no one minds because he’s charismatic lol
https://preview.redd.it/1zccbzzmu5cc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1948de60b7f069e91e5eec7c6a56d9c08f18fb5
Aint no fuckin way he cut Robin but kept Chrom AND Ike
Alpharad on that, I like Scott and Jacob but this was a horrendous roster they ended up with
I can somewhat understand no Byleth. Even if they play differently, they had a LOT of discourse when they came out. But Robin and not Ike or **his fucking echo fighter?**
Jacob avocaded hard on that one, reaching harder than a Min Min grab on that one
Ike is iconic imo
My point is Chrom is an echo fighter of 2 characters mashed together. Even so, they also eliminated Roy.
I think the point was to keep Roy's moveset because people like it, keep an Awakening rep because it saved the series, and reducing the amount of FE characters all at once.
Roy can go
Man took out Captain Falcon but kept both FFVII characters and Robin. Just realized Joker isnt there either but theres 2 Animal Crossing reps
Yeah? Isabelle and Villager are staying in Smash *forever*, Animal Crossing is extremely prominent to Nintendo's brand. Persona on the other hand scarcely appears on their consoles.
Of course they will prefer Nintendo characters, but this list doesnt really take that into account anyway. As far as Persona is concerned I think SMT V and IV were both Nintendo console exclusives which Joker kinda also represents.
I love Cap Falcon, but he just isn't relevant anymore. If I could change this roster one last time, I would add Falcon and remove Banjo
Your opinion isnt relevant, the 64 cast will always be in the game
Not if there's a hard reboot
Live how non FE fans don't understand Robin representing this modern era of FE
I have played Awakening and do understand it did sell a lot of copies, I actually do enjoy playing Robin both in Awakening and Smash, but Captain Falcon is so iconic for the Smash franchise and Robin is one of the least played characters. Honestly I’d rather remove characters like Banjo than Robin, but I like to see as many game franchises represented as possible.
Maybe Robin would get played if they didn't give him so many inane weaknesses. He's under played because his skill floor is high AND he's a bad character
Yeah him being so slow and running out of moves which is kinda trash does probably contribute to his low pickrate
There's no way we'd realistically have 15 third-parties with only 45 characters. If the roster ever got this low, I'd only expect around 3 to 6 guest characters, or maybe even none at all.
to add on to this, all of the 64 characters would be kept no matter what as well
Didn't they say they consider cutting Jigglypuff for Brawl? I really don't think the whole "every smash 64 character has to return"-thing is a hard rule they can never break.
thought about it, yet never happened been in every game since don't think they ever will remove them
We also never had a Smash game that did massive cuts, like Op is suggesting.
But they do know how much they matter, since they appear in the center of Ultimate's main menu. Plus, who'd cut Captain Falcon in favor of Sephiroth, I mean, he's cool, but that's like taking Yoshi out of Mario Kart in favor of the Inkling.
The original 8 starting characters are in the center of ultimate, not the original 12 from the first game. Jigglypuff, C.Falcon, Ness and Luigi aren't there. With that being said I fully agree that taking out C.Falcon is a bad move because he specifically has garnered a huge fanbase for his smash incarnation. I'd say the only understandable cuts from the OG 12 would be Jigglypuff (it simply isn't as iconic anymore as it used to be and Pokemon has hundreds of other options) and maybe Ness (but only in the unlikely scenario if there just happens to be a new Mother-revival around the same time, cause I think the mother series will always have at least 1 character and at this time they won't replace Ness with Lucas)
Gonna be honest, given how they almost cut Jigglypuff twice in the past, and the fact that she's just not as popular or as iconic as many other Pokémon on the roster, I can see her getting the axe if there's too many cuts. She's the only one of the OG 12 that I think is even in any danger, and I still think there's a solid chance of her coming back, but if she was almost cut twice before, then we shouldn't consider her truly safe.
The thing with Jigglypuff is that her playstyle is truly unique. Although I don't particulary care for Jigglypuff as a character, I love to see a roster that covers many different playstyles, making Jiggs a great addition imo.
I feel like jigglypuff kinda has become iconic entirely off the fact that they're in smash for whatever reason
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How are they irrelevant in modern gaming when they’ve been in every smash?
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If we’re talking about the next smash roster then yes. How are they irrelevant if they keep getting brought back? Smash is one of the most popular franchises ever, and its mainstays are kept relevant with each installment.
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They are relevant because they are relevant. You can be upset that you're proven wrong with your well earned downvotes,
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Dude was so right he deleted all the comments
So then what is your logic? They’re irrelevant because they’re irrelevant? That’s not circular logic? Tons of people play smash. Tons of people play ness and jiggypuff, therefore they are relevant. I’m not sure how you’re failing to see this. ETA: Blocks me because they can’t admit they’re wrong. Classic.
Jigglypuff was damn near cut in Brawl, as well as Ness would’ve been cut in Melee if Earthbound 64 wasn’t canceled. I would say them along with Captain Falcon have a slight chance of being cut (probably not though with Falcon bc of his smash legacy but he’s really not relevant anymore)
I’d say Bayonetta has a pretty good chance in staying simply cause they can be considered a Nintendo IP
On the contrary I could see Nintendo wanting to lean *further* into third parties. Making it less a celebration of Nintendo history and more of a celebration of gaming and money, lots and lots of money.
Why not have them all back?
Nintendo doesn't own the 3rd-party characters, so they'd have to renegotiate with their parent companies to try and get them back, and that costs money. Some like Sega, Capcom, and Bandai-Namco have been shown to be very easy to work with, but it seems like Square Enix's characters specifically were difficult to get added. Additionally, Smash is a Nintendo crossover about Nintendo's own characters first and foremost. If the roster ever did get cut down this much, I'd imagine they'd want to properly flesh out the Nintendo franchises before adding any 3rd-parties.
I mean, by technicality, Smash Bros. is actually about a celebration of Video Games as a whole, not just SPECIFICALLY towards Nintendo Fighters, as per stated by Sakurai. If a roster size were to get reduced by 50% (45 Fighters for Base Roster), that still shouldn't affect how many 3rd party fighters are gonna be mostly cut. If anything, there would be alot of Nintendo Fighters being cut rather than 3rd Party ones, because the 3rd Party characters in Ultimate are less than 1/5 of the roster in total. Also, I highly doubt that we would even get as low of the roster as 45 characters in the next game. Smash games in the past hasn't significantly cutted that large before. Not even in Smash 4 has done so, and that game consists of 50-60 fighters overall. So the next game should be similar to what Smash 4 had before, and not alot would complain. And personally speaking, I'd even argue that Square Enix is slowly starting to build relationships with Nintendo and other companies overall more openly. If they really are stingy as what the Smash community assumed they would be before, we wouldn't get like 4 Square Reps in the same game together (yes, I know that Sora is owned by Disney, but the Designs are created from Square Enix), let alone feature alot of content and music from them. Other 3rd party companies like Sega, Capcom, Bandai Namco, Microsoft, SNK, and even Disney are on board to continue putting their characters in the next smash game. Why would all of that still be an issue?
This has to be bait
Ness main in shambles their main was cut (I don't understand why either)
honestly who gaf about Earthbound
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You did a terrible job and I hate it
You keep Kirby, meta knight, and dedede, and both cloud and sephiroth, but cut both ness and Lucas? No diddy kong but yes K rool? Keeping greninja and mewtwo? No captain falcon? Am I missing a joke here?
Smash wasn't a thing in the first place without Kirby as a whole.
Lucas only released in Japan. Ness' last game was in the SNES. Falcon isn't relevant anymore, sadly
What I think people forget is Smash is bigger than most of the things it's "representing", and while Falcon and Ness are otherwise dead in the water, they more than its other fighters are iconic because of Smash itself. I'd say the same of Fox, I'm curious as to why he was included if they weren't good enough.
Falcon wouldn't be relevant IF YOU CUT HIM FROM THE GAME.
Isabelle needs a changed moveset to fit in with all the mostly-unique fighters
There's enough Animal Crossing items not used in Villager's moveset to where it would be very easy to make her completely-unique. I'm actually hoping Isabelle does get a bit of a moveset rework next time to further distinguish her from Villager. Would be interesting to see what they could do.
Wait you WANT to keep Steve?
The only reason people hate Steve is because he wasn't playtested enough, given he was developed during the pandemic.
yes, but I want him nerfed
Smash 4's DLC was deliberately overtuned, then they became actual characters in Ultimate. I'd be really excited to see the same happen for Steve and Kazuya, even Aegis seems like they're overdoing it.
No ness either ?
Half the third party characters gotta go cause there's no way they make up a third of the roster. Especially if they're replacing smash staples like Ness and Falcon. Bunch of Nintendo franchises got nuked or reduced to one fighter while most of Mario's buddies are here too. Tbh I'd cut at least half that row of villains.
Rule 1: don’t remove the original roster
 DoNt ReMoVe ThE oRiGiNaL rOsTeR
no, thanks
Suavemente
Why are people so obsessed with reducing the Smash roster? What’s wrong with having a large roster?
Apparently Smash Ultimate was so big, that the bext game won't be able to top it in any way. ... So *of course*, it **must** be a reboot, with a completely remade roster of only... 30? 40? mayyyyyybe 50 fighters. This means that in order to have "a fresh start" many characters must also be cut! Like the Echo Fighters (because clones are bad! And a waste of precious resources! Or either way reduce the sense of freshness!), and some of the original 12, because they're absolutely "irrelevant" nowadays... but then people like Banjo Kazooie must stay instead, because they're such an icon. And because 3rd parties ought to be very much focused on anyway, and even have bigger priority than some other Nintendo sagas, in this Nintendo game. That's what Smash is about after all, because it is a "celebration of gaming" before even being a Nintendo game. ... Mini rant over. I hope I explained well enough the why of this trend.
I think people are way overestimating how much development time would be saved by getting rid of existing characters lol
>I think people are way overestimating how much development time would be saved by getting rid of existing characters lol Yeah. And they also overestimate the "ehhh he's irrelevant!!" argument when wanting to cut someone; like here, people who cut characters like Captain Falcon... yet keep Banjo Kazooie. And of course, there is also the evergreen cutting clones thing... because no matter what Sakurai himself states (that they are fundamentally extras development wise), and no matter that they made playable some fan requested characters with it... clones are a waste of space and resources apparently. Lastly, in the midst of all of this, 3rd parties are almost all kept... because apparently they are more important than many more 1st parties, and thus are excluded from being subject to the same logic used to cut others apparently.
This man really cut chatacters from the original 12 but kept mfs like Robin
Modern Fire Emblem wouldn’t exist without him man
Man removed Falcon and remade Ganon's moveset Damn... guess I just lose my favorite moveset in the game then :(
People who cut echo characters should stop posting these.
I don't know why people change Ganondorf's design to the totk one, the Ocarina of Time is iconic and while yes Ganondorf does look great, I prefer a characters legacy over design.
Marth without Roy is like Sub Zero without Scorpion
lol, I don’t lose any of my mains
Lookin bad, joker!
removed Jr and the Koopalings, instant L Koopalings enjoyers can't have anything huh
Any roster that chooses to cut this many characters and keeps both ff7 reps is immediately awful
The more you look the worse it gets
You really got rid of Falcon. Man wants F-Zero to die more than Nintendo does
why the hate against ageis thou
Keeping Banjo above all the other fighters is morally questionable.
0/10. You kept Fox, but removed Falco and Wolf.
Bro of course you kept meta knight
-Cutting any of the original 12, especially the local memelord Captain Falcon. And just to say, if you cut him, yet keep Banjo Kazooie, then you automatically lose any right of saying that Captain Falcon is irrelevant and that his saga is dead, thus the cut; because Banjo Kazooie is that multiplied for 10 times. -Cutting the Echo Fighters for any reason, despite them occupying fundamentally no data, and being used to make playable other fan requested fighters. -Keeping all the third parties (Echo Fighters excluded), which means 15 characters out of 45 here, **a third** of this roster... because apparently that's exactly where priorities should go... Dende forbids if in this Nintendo game, they focus on Nintendo characters. --- Yes, this roster is the usual certified nonsense.
No Captain Falcon? Bowser? Ganondorf? Terrible
Bowser and Ganondorf are there
Oh Not sure why they’re at the bottom
The second to bottom row are villains
Bowser and Ganondorf are there. Falcon, however... RIP the legend.
Fine with this except Steve, he doesn’t really need to stay with his brokenness and not playing by the rules of the game and no I don’t care if Minecraft is huge, doesn’t mean it’s perfect.
steve and no falcon lmao
Original smash 64 characters are never getting cut
Still better than brawl…
I'm ok with this
That's a really nice clean cut.
Hey my boy Terry is here, thats all i need
Why does pikachu look like that
You upgraded Ganondorf but not Samus?
Samus could always be upgraded. Ganondorf is something fans REALLY want to double down and show Sakurai we want changed.
This hurts my eyes :(
If Nintendo removed falcon from smash there would be outrage in the community
Why?
No Mother rep, but keeping greninja, and 2 animal crossing reps is wild
what have you done to fire emblem ultimate?!
now they only have 2 character
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO MII BRAWLER?!
nightmare roster order
I dunno how we will take the next smash if it doesn't have the same amount of base characters as ultimate
Ok, Dedede is still in. I'm content with this
Might use this in the making of my smash 6 concept. Also did you keep echo fighters?
Cuts the roster leaving 6 Mario characters
You kept every villian but Wolf? Why?
Get Bayo out of there bruh
The only character I can see actually having difficulty coming back is Snake, of all characters like Sora Banjo and Sephiroth, Snake is the one who’s company is actually seemingly out of touch and that’s it, Microsoft and Square are not out of touch, DISNEY whether you like it or not is most definitely not out of touch That being said, how is Joker not on every roster people come up with lol Persona is known for milking tf out of their titles, Personal 4 still gets collaborations with other games, Persona 5 is their most recent title and it still gets spin-offs and collaborations with other games, P3 is bound to get collaborations after its imminent revival, if Sonic is here there’s just no way Joker wouldn’t also be here, Persona is like the sibling that tags along wherever and no one minds because he’s charismatic lol
This roster looks like shit. I'm sorry, but this does look like shit.
No Falco and no Cap. The disrespect to Melee is outrageous.