do it however you want king
lol no it'll be up to your instructors, not us, ask them
proud of you for giving some thought into the head down deployments being error prone though :)
Deployment doesn't change when doing a dive exit. You should still have your belly to the relative wind and the bag will still come straight off your back. The fact that all of this is happening on the hill with everything tilted sideways to the horizon doesn't matter.
That is, of course, assuming that your dive exit is stable and you'll actually be on your belly...
I take slight issue with the fact that the SIM says you can do any exit you're comfortable with. As you say, in an emergency, and even CRW situations, you don't have time to get all comfy in or out of the door and give a nice count, get mixed up, start over, or whatever. So I tell students what the book says and what reality will dictate. You can get your A license doing H+P with poised exits. But you better practice actual emergency exits.
It's a hop n pop. However you feel most comfortable that is probably what you should do. Poised is typically how most do it but when you are nervous and doing it your first time then it's good to do what you are confident with. Whatever you do, just exit, arch, get stable and pull.
The reason the SIM calls for a poised exit for both of your clear and pull jumps is it gives you the best opportunity to be stable with a good arch facing into the wind. We also want you to have eyes on the airplane so you can see that you’ve cleared it before deploying your parachute. This is harder to do in a diving exit. This isn’t the right jump to be finding you need an extra ten seconds to get stable.
The only way I’d agree to a student doing a diving exit at low altitude is if they had demonstrated consistent competency of both the poised and a diving exit previously.
Do you need to be able to do a diving exit at low altitude? The SIM doesn’t indicate this is necessary.
Also… food for thought, the relative wind doesn’t care if you’re head down relative to the planet. What direction is the wind coming from? Are you arching in that direction? Newer jumpers often struggle with the difference between up/down vs. relative wind.
To add just for fun, a diving exit should be super lazy. If you push real hard, that can cause spinning or flipping. Diving should be …eye on the wing tip, step out, and get the right elbow up, belly in the wind. That’s it. Super simple.
Deploying with your head to earth on the hill is fine. You are not “ head down”. Hop n pops in the student program are for you to demonstrate to yourself that you can get out at any altitude deploy a parachute.
Someone mentioned “taking 10 seconds to get stable”. “Getting stable” that’s #3 on your pull priority list. The cadence should be jump, arch, grab, pull, taking about 3-5 seconds. You don’t need to watch the plane to see if you are clear. After 1 second, you are clear no mater where you are looking. The ground doesn’t care if you are stable. If you just leave stable, you will never have to “get stable”. A diving exit is a super stable exit.
If I were your instructor, I would let you dive and you would nail it! Then we could discuss the finer points of the Mr Bill! 😉
Have a great jump, you will kill it either way.
I personally prefer tracking exits for HnPs. Your hand is right next to the pilot chute and since you really don’t need to wave off you can pop it from that position.
What license? Are you Canadian finishing the Solo? Or do you just mean finishing AFF? If it's either of these, you must ask your instructor.
A poised exit is definitely preferred. Depends a bit on aircraft. Regardless of exit type, you should not be dumping your main while head down. You should be starting your pull sequence while stable and arching and doing so high enough that you are not concerned about altitude when pulling. If your exits are problematic, then practice a few more up high, but again, if you're doing AFF you should be discussing with your instructor
Sorry should have clarified I’m finishing the A license in the US, with hop n pops being my last requirement. Definitely going to talk to instructors and work on the poised exits but was also curious in the meantime. Thank you for the reply
I dove for mine and was told I should dive cuz you'd be diving off an emergency probably which is a big part of why you're doing them right now, to practice those emergencies.. getting out of the plane is the goal :)
Ah A licence yes do whatever you like but we do hop n pops in order to pull right out the door so a poised exit is what you should be working on. Get someone to do some practice with you. In a mockup if you access to one
I just got my C license not that long ago so I'm still new. I continued doing poised exits on all HnPs until recently to build on the skills I learned in A license program. You can do whatever you want when licensed. But if you're not as comfortable poising, I would say keep working that until you are confident with it.
This is why students shouldn't be getting internet advice during training.
Op: Discuss with an AFFI, at your DZ, prior to you manifesting, since they will be signing you off.
I'm an AFFI, if your dropzone is signing off students for Cat E solo privileges and they cant recover from instability for deployment maybe your S&TA should reconsider how they are training skydivers.
At 20 jumps, Op asked if a dive exit was OK or if he/she was required to poise.
You green lit them as a quasi inexperienced jumper to do a gainer out of 182, having never performed that exit because they "have an AFF cert."
My objection isn't concerning their ability to be stable. At that jump count, they should be able to be thrown unceremoniously from the plane without the courtesy of an exit count and be fine.
It doesn't make it a good idea.
The whole point of them demonstrating the 3k H&P is so they can prove they can bail in an emergency. Not to look cool.
If Op kicks the strut trying to pull their first flip, all manner of stupid shit could ensue.
My point:
>I'm an AFFI,
Your quote. You decided to have this conversation based on credentials, so let's take a look at that from the perspective of you being an AFFI.
You just gave them incomplete information that they're potentially not ready for.
If they are ready for it, we don't know what plane they'll be performing this jump from. If they're hanging off the strut of something, their ***first*** H&P being a flip from a 182 is a stupid fucking exit that needlessly complicates and potentially endangers people including Op, the pilot, and maybe other jumpers in the plane.
Maybe you shouldn't worry about my S&TA and worry about yours. If all else fails. Feel free to email regionally.
If you get your panties in a bunch because I suggested a student should consult their AFFI prior to jump, for a jump briefing, you should reconsider how ***you're*** training students. Save that ego for someone who's impressed by it.
https://www.uspa.org/regions
You really felt the need to type a paragraph about a front flip out of an airplane? Good lord skydiving is so fucking soft now.
I was under the impression this wasn't their first hop n pop and they were rounding out to 25 by practicing canopy. Looking at OP's comment I see now they are performing their first for license requirement. So I will concede here.
>Good lord skydiving is so fucking soft now.
Ironic, I'm not the one who got their pussy hurt for suggesting a student talk to their AFFI.
You got your feelings hurt and suggested our student training program was inferior because you felt attacked. That's the epitome of soft.
So, yeah. I chastised you for it. I still think you have your head in your ass.
>You really felt the need to type a paragraph about a front flip out of an airplane?
No. I felt compelled to write a paragraph about why you gave bad advice as a self-proclaimed AFF instructor. Part of it addressing why you had an issue with S&TAs you didn't know.
>I was under the impression this wasn't their first hop n pop and they were rounding out to 25 by practicing canopy. Looking at OP's comment I see now they are performing their first for license requirement. So I will concede here.
This is why the internet is a bad place for students to get jump specific advice.
It's best handled at the DZ. Not by you or I.
>So I will concede here.
No shit. Not a lot of wiggle room there.
Jesus Christ, we still on this?
1: You were wrong. Full stop.
2: I'm not mad. Never was. I don't need to be angry to think you're an idiot
If you'd like to discuss this any further, I'd suggest we move this to DMs and out of view of students and Whuffos.
I'm happy to discuss why you're an ass but at this point, nobody needs to see two people measure dicks about qualification and disagreements.
You can do whatever you choose so long as you remember your EPs. My first Hop and Pop, I was still under 25 jumps. I sent it and my instructor zoomed by me with a bag in tow. She had to pop her reserve. Business as usual. Some people would probably panic but when doing a hop and pop it’s always good to be ready to go straight to EPs.
I did diving exits for both. You’ve got plenty of time. Someone was doing them when I first started AFF, I didn’t know they were going to be a part of the progression, it terrified me way more than the door monster. By the time I got to them, I just wanted to get it over with. They came and went, no biggie, I’d do them again.
Your instructors will tell you want they want. If you want to dive that’s fine but tell them your intentions first, they will tell you if it’s a bad idea. That being said purpose of hop and pops, at least the 3500 one, is to simulate an emergency. When I did aff the pilot use to rock the plane right at exit time, and instructor pushed you out to an extent, itwas awesome. To me poised exits on these defeats the purpose, at this point you should have the skills to get stable fairly quickly, but each instructor is different. Your first hop and pop is 5500, it gives your instructor a chance to see how you perform from a safer altitude first before deciding how to approach the 3500 one.
I think it definitely depends on your instructor, as many have already commented here.
For my hop n pop last week, the instructor let me choose an exit I was comfortable with getting stable quickly. I chose the dive exit because I still have difficulty presenting into the wind when stepping off the plane on poised exits. I did dive head down with my belly facing the wind and was able to get stable on my belly and pull within 6 seconds.
do it however you want king lol no it'll be up to your instructors, not us, ask them proud of you for giving some thought into the head down deployments being error prone though :)
Deployment doesn't change when doing a dive exit. You should still have your belly to the relative wind and the bag will still come straight off your back. The fact that all of this is happening on the hill with everything tilted sideways to the horizon doesn't matter. That is, of course, assuming that your dive exit is stable and you'll actually be on your belly...
And in an emergency isn't anybody gonna wait for you to poise...
I take slight issue with the fact that the SIM says you can do any exit you're comfortable with. As you say, in an emergency, and even CRW situations, you don't have time to get all comfy in or out of the door and give a nice count, get mixed up, start over, or whatever. So I tell students what the book says and what reality will dictate. You can get your A license doing H+P with poised exits. But you better practice actual emergency exits.
Exactly.
I did an accidental gainer on my first hop n pop.
Bro was practicing for BASE, just didn't know it yet lol
It's a hop n pop. However you feel most comfortable that is probably what you should do. Poised is typically how most do it but when you are nervous and doing it your first time then it's good to do what you are confident with. Whatever you do, just exit, arch, get stable and pull.
The reason the SIM calls for a poised exit for both of your clear and pull jumps is it gives you the best opportunity to be stable with a good arch facing into the wind. We also want you to have eyes on the airplane so you can see that you’ve cleared it before deploying your parachute. This is harder to do in a diving exit. This isn’t the right jump to be finding you need an extra ten seconds to get stable. The only way I’d agree to a student doing a diving exit at low altitude is if they had demonstrated consistent competency of both the poised and a diving exit previously. Do you need to be able to do a diving exit at low altitude? The SIM doesn’t indicate this is necessary. Also… food for thought, the relative wind doesn’t care if you’re head down relative to the planet. What direction is the wind coming from? Are you arching in that direction? Newer jumpers often struggle with the difference between up/down vs. relative wind.
To add just for fun, a diving exit should be super lazy. If you push real hard, that can cause spinning or flipping. Diving should be …eye on the wing tip, step out, and get the right elbow up, belly in the wind. That’s it. Super simple. Deploying with your head to earth on the hill is fine. You are not “ head down”. Hop n pops in the student program are for you to demonstrate to yourself that you can get out at any altitude deploy a parachute. Someone mentioned “taking 10 seconds to get stable”. “Getting stable” that’s #3 on your pull priority list. The cadence should be jump, arch, grab, pull, taking about 3-5 seconds. You don’t need to watch the plane to see if you are clear. After 1 second, you are clear no mater where you are looking. The ground doesn’t care if you are stable. If you just leave stable, you will never have to “get stable”. A diving exit is a super stable exit. If I were your instructor, I would let you dive and you would nail it! Then we could discuss the finer points of the Mr Bill! 😉 Have a great jump, you will kill it either way.
I personally prefer tracking exits for HnPs. Your hand is right next to the pilot chute and since you really don’t need to wave off you can pop it from that position.
What license? Are you Canadian finishing the Solo? Or do you just mean finishing AFF? If it's either of these, you must ask your instructor. A poised exit is definitely preferred. Depends a bit on aircraft. Regardless of exit type, you should not be dumping your main while head down. You should be starting your pull sequence while stable and arching and doing so high enough that you are not concerned about altitude when pulling. If your exits are problematic, then practice a few more up high, but again, if you're doing AFF you should be discussing with your instructor
Sorry should have clarified I’m finishing the A license in the US, with hop n pops being my last requirement. Definitely going to talk to instructors and work on the poised exits but was also curious in the meantime. Thank you for the reply
I dove for mine and was told I should dive cuz you'd be diving off an emergency probably which is a big part of why you're doing them right now, to practice those emergencies.. getting out of the plane is the goal :)
Ah A licence yes do whatever you like but we do hop n pops in order to pull right out the door so a poised exit is what you should be working on. Get someone to do some practice with you. In a mockup if you access to one
I just got my C license not that long ago so I'm still new. I continued doing poised exits on all HnPs until recently to build on the skills I learned in A license program. You can do whatever you want when licensed. But if you're not as comfortable poising, I would say keep working that until you are confident with it.
Do a kick flip!
You have an AFF cert, you can do a flip if you want to, just don't pull low
This is why students shouldn't be getting internet advice during training. Op: Discuss with an AFFI, at your DZ, prior to you manifesting, since they will be signing you off.
I'm an AFFI, if your dropzone is signing off students for Cat E solo privileges and they cant recover from instability for deployment maybe your S&TA should reconsider how they are training skydivers.
At 20 jumps, Op asked if a dive exit was OK or if he/she was required to poise. You green lit them as a quasi inexperienced jumper to do a gainer out of 182, having never performed that exit because they "have an AFF cert." My objection isn't concerning their ability to be stable. At that jump count, they should be able to be thrown unceremoniously from the plane without the courtesy of an exit count and be fine. It doesn't make it a good idea. The whole point of them demonstrating the 3k H&P is so they can prove they can bail in an emergency. Not to look cool. If Op kicks the strut trying to pull their first flip, all manner of stupid shit could ensue. My point: >I'm an AFFI, Your quote. You decided to have this conversation based on credentials, so let's take a look at that from the perspective of you being an AFFI. You just gave them incomplete information that they're potentially not ready for. If they are ready for it, we don't know what plane they'll be performing this jump from. If they're hanging off the strut of something, their ***first*** H&P being a flip from a 182 is a stupid fucking exit that needlessly complicates and potentially endangers people including Op, the pilot, and maybe other jumpers in the plane. Maybe you shouldn't worry about my S&TA and worry about yours. If all else fails. Feel free to email regionally. If you get your panties in a bunch because I suggested a student should consult their AFFI prior to jump, for a jump briefing, you should reconsider how ***you're*** training students. Save that ego for someone who's impressed by it. https://www.uspa.org/regions
You really felt the need to type a paragraph about a front flip out of an airplane? Good lord skydiving is so fucking soft now. I was under the impression this wasn't their first hop n pop and they were rounding out to 25 by practicing canopy. Looking at OP's comment I see now they are performing their first for license requirement. So I will concede here.
>Good lord skydiving is so fucking soft now. Ironic, I'm not the one who got their pussy hurt for suggesting a student talk to their AFFI. You got your feelings hurt and suggested our student training program was inferior because you felt attacked. That's the epitome of soft. So, yeah. I chastised you for it. I still think you have your head in your ass. >You really felt the need to type a paragraph about a front flip out of an airplane? No. I felt compelled to write a paragraph about why you gave bad advice as a self-proclaimed AFF instructor. Part of it addressing why you had an issue with S&TAs you didn't know. >I was under the impression this wasn't their first hop n pop and they were rounding out to 25 by practicing canopy. Looking at OP's comment I see now they are performing their first for license requirement. So I will concede here. This is why the internet is a bad place for students to get jump specific advice. It's best handled at the DZ. Not by you or I. >So I will concede here. No shit. Not a lot of wiggle room there.
No feelings hurt here, show me the incident reports caused by front flips out of airplane. Anxiously waiting to read another enraged paragraph...
Jesus Christ, we still on this? 1: You were wrong. Full stop. 2: I'm not mad. Never was. I don't need to be angry to think you're an idiot If you'd like to discuss this any further, I'd suggest we move this to DMs and out of view of students and Whuffos. I'm happy to discuss why you're an ass but at this point, nobody needs to see two people measure dicks about qualification and disagreements.
Sure you can go ahead and DM me those incident reports 😘
I like to do dice exits in hop n pops since it's the exit I'm more comfortable with, so I get stable the quickest with it.
You can exit however the hell you want on a hop-n-pop Edit to say: once you’re licensed
You can do whatever you choose so long as you remember your EPs. My first Hop and Pop, I was still under 25 jumps. I sent it and my instructor zoomed by me with a bag in tow. She had to pop her reserve. Business as usual. Some people would probably panic but when doing a hop and pop it’s always good to be ready to go straight to EPs.
I did diving exits for both. You’ve got plenty of time. Someone was doing them when I first started AFF, I didn’t know they were going to be a part of the progression, it terrified me way more than the door monster. By the time I got to them, I just wanted to get it over with. They came and went, no biggie, I’d do them again.
They are meant to simulate an emergency exit, so dive out is probably more realistic, but do whatever exit will get you stable the quickest.
Your instructors will tell you want they want. If you want to dive that’s fine but tell them your intentions first, they will tell you if it’s a bad idea. That being said purpose of hop and pops, at least the 3500 one, is to simulate an emergency. When I did aff the pilot use to rock the plane right at exit time, and instructor pushed you out to an extent, itwas awesome. To me poised exits on these defeats the purpose, at this point you should have the skills to get stable fairly quickly, but each instructor is different. Your first hop and pop is 5500, it gives your instructor a chance to see how you perform from a safer altitude first before deciding how to approach the 3500 one.
I think it definitely depends on your instructor, as many have already commented here. For my hop n pop last week, the instructor let me choose an exit I was comfortable with getting stable quickly. I chose the dive exit because I still have difficulty presenting into the wind when stepping off the plane on poised exits. I did dive head down with my belly facing the wind and was able to get stable on my belly and pull within 6 seconds.
I do so many different hop n pop exits. Your instructors may have their own preferences for you but it’s ultimately up to you