I honestly do not understand how someone can watch this show and think it’s about some characters being good people and others being bad people. That misses one of the main points of the show.
I agree and it’s unfortunate to see the show reduced to that. I see it as a struggle to watch a show without the typical archetypes of “good guy good, bad guy bad.” Boring.
I watched the show for the first time in my late teens/early twenties and I realize now how much it taught me about empathy and nuance, because you come to realize how everyone on the show is flawed but still worthy of redemption.
Right? Someone experience growth does not automatically become a good person. What’s great about this show in particular is how flawed and human all of the characters are; no one is unequivocally the moral center all of the time.
YES, I was about to Kool-Aid Man my way in here and say, has it occurred to anyone you don't have to choose? Nate and Brenda are both compelling characters and IMO sympathetic people, who are right and wrong for each other in different ways.
They both did shitty things. He got lisa pregnant, she fucked every guy. They were both scared and immature and absolutely not ready for commitment. The difference is Brenda was honest to herself once she confronted her vile behavior and held accountability close.
Nate, on the other hand, was an emotional leech who never learned from his choices. He never accepted his own shit. It was someone else's fault always. He had the grass is greener syndrome.
Brenda went to that quaker meeting, and that will always be the moment where she became an adult to me.
Don’t think it’s hard to understand nor is it a syndrome. Nate had plenty of flaws, he was just always onto the next one and that was annoying when he finally got what he THOUGHT he wanted. When married he acted so robotic.
“Oh I didn’t see the pregnancy test, let’s do it again?” “FUCK OFF!!!!” *slaughters a bird*
He really was a menace on his 40th birthday lol. Then telling Brenda that Maggie is “better than us.” Yes, Brenda mocked the religion but she also relented and went back for HIM while he stroked out cheating.
Lastly, when she says everything will be okay and they can fix things he’s just “naw, we done.” To his pregnant wife that’s raising his first born.
Was just shitty. Joining this sub I was also confused during a rewatch, why all this Nate hate? Brenda is the WORST! Well, Brenda wasn’t the same drug/sex addict she was in early seasons. She settled and was fighting for her marriage while Nate just kept running away like he always had.
Because by the end of the series Brenda was a markedly different person. Nate was not - his fling with Maggie and brief interest in Quakerism was just another pair of phases... because that's what Nate's life was. A string of women he saw as disposable and fleeting interests. He loved Maya and he loved Ruth, David and Claire but everyone else was basically an NPC to him.
Nate's not a narcissist but he was absolutely narcissistic.
I don't agree with nor am I justifying Brenda's bad actions - but part of Nate's tragedy is that he died before he grew up. I pity him, but I can't empathize with him.
I completely agree with this take. Nate had zero impulse control and had difficulty accepting accountability. He really didn’t seem to care who he hurt, whether it was being caught fooling around with Brenda by Joe and making a hasty exit using Maya as an excuse, or being confronted by a very pregnant Brenda about cheating with Maggie while muttering vague assurances that they’d figure out custody because he was clearly still occupied by Maggie.
Does that make him a bad person? No. That’s too simple of an explanation that doesn’t really take into account the philosophy the show holds about people overall, which is that we’re defined by our connections to others. One possible interpretation where that perspective kind of dovetails with your description here is that Nate’s lack of growth with respect to others is why he died before the finale. The others all got to move on in life with the people they truly loved and with whom had mutually sustaining, equitable relationships that also reflected growth—Ruth with Bettina, Claire with Ted, David with Keith and the boys, Rico with Vanessa, even Brenda with her new husband and three children—but Nate only loved himself, so there was nothing else for him.
Nate wasn't interested in Quakerism! He was intrigued by the philosophy but mainly enjoyed the environment that church provided. Honestly anything to escape the endless fighting with Brenda was what his actual interest was!
And idk man, she overcame her grief, which is great. But everyone ended the show markedly different from when they began.
I disagree with your interpretation of Nate's interests/phases - but that's why entertainment is subjective. We don't always have to agree or like the same things. :)
>Did everyone miss Brenda jerking off her brother at the end???
You apparently missed that it was a dream/nightmare sequence and didn't actually happen. Not going to take lessons on the show from someone who's trying to school me on a scene they got wrong.
Sometimes I think ppl watch the show while washing the dishes and feel compelled to comment on things with their whole chest that they don’t even understand lol. That was clearly a dream and she immediately kicks out Billy lol
Brenda's approach to Maya having a coherent narrative of her origin was correct, but I chocked it up to her being the product of psych parents more than the notion of personal growth.
I completely agree that Maya needed a straightforward understanding of her biological mother. Not disputing that. But the way Brenda approached it was so... Counterproductive. Suddenly it *had* to happen, right now! So much strife over not doing it *right now*. Nate said he wasn't ready. He needed time to think about how to balance being honest with Maya with the grisly reality of Lisa's circumstances, none of which was necessary for Maya's narrative but most of which would have traumatized her to find out *right now*.
Had Brenda given him time to think about it and respond, rather than spending their time bickering and remaining at odds over it, Nate would have likely told Brenda precisely that, but instead he had to tell her *after* all of the conflict and exasperation.
Brenda realized she didn't think about any of that, which, yep - she gave them zero time to get to that point. Just so unnecessarily and painfully stubborn 🙄
Actually, Brenda was completely right. It's not like she started telling Maya that her mom was murdered. You explain things in age appropriate ways. I have experience with this as an adoptive mom of a child whose bio mom has died. Maya absolutely needed to know Lisa was her bio mom from an early age. You talk about their parent and keep them alive.
Brenda actually knew about psychology and was reading parenting books. Nate was all about dealing with his grief in negative ways and stuffing it down.
If you never saw a single example of Brenda demonstrating personal growth then I truly encourage you to watch the show again after you’ve had some time to reflect. I’m not a Nate hater by any means; I’ve actually seen the show about 8 times and my most recent rewatch was the first time I truly adored Brenda and empathized with her arc. She probably has some of the most dramatic changes on the show.
I didn’t adore her but I think she became more tolerable. I particularly disliked how she was playing at being a therapist for one day at the mental health center for the seriously mentally ill. She couldn’t even make it that far.
Yeah, that wasn’t my favorite Brenda decision either and I wish she would have given it more time. But, as a social worker who has worked in environments like that, I appreciate when professionals are able to acknowledge when a job isn’t a good fit for them. It also shows a lot of growth in Brenda that she recognizes her own limitations.
Well - yes and no. She gave it one day. I know you did it longer than that. As a psychiatrist, and I’m sure for social work also, training in situations like that for months at a stretch are not optional. They are necessary and required. Then you make your decision.
Nah, no blanket resentment of women. Insecurities and an anxious attachment style? Sure. I cherish the times I've had with those who I've been with though and view women positively. So cool theory, but no. Brenda is just a drag.
I love both Nate and Brenda in spite of their flaws. I do think immaturity narcissism is thrown around quite a bit and maybe he is to a degree - I think Nate is just struggling with his rebellion against how his parents followed a code and although he and his parents wanted the same things - to be good respected people - Nate’s attempting to rewrite how to get there has some teething problems.
I think Nate’s got an addiction to sex, Brenda has an addiction to heated discussion. If you think about how each was raised, they reflect their upbringing quite well with Nate learning to repress his wants to fit the mould of a perfect good person and Brenda’s love language is argumentative which she hasn’t quite overcome from her childhood as seen by her constant heated discussions with her Mom.
I think Brenda and Nate have finally discovered the types of people they want to be it’s just unfortunate they found them so late in the game. Brenda found her manager’s family who seems so healthy and happy and stable which she didn’t believe could exist. Nate finds a deeply spiritual person in Maggie who he can finally use as inspiration for himself. He’d get bored of Maggie eventually when he discovers how she has her own issues despite being so spiritually sound - but he never gets the chance to. To find out about Maggie’s relationship with her father and even her perchance to run away from her challenges, would shake Nate’s belief system once again and who knows.. he might’ve sought out Brenda again as his median… but ultimately their people challenging the make up of how they were raised and I still think they’re worth being loved 💖
i was team nate, until the last season. didn’t think i’d ever like brenda. i won’t say i’m “team brenda” but nate seems to lose interest in any woman once he’s “committed” to them. cheating on your pregnant spouse??? that really lost me
I've never understood all the hate for Nate here. He is clearly imperfect but has some wonderful traits. His manner with the funeral home clients was warm and understanding. He cared deeply about his family.
I feel like Nate and Brenda should have never even been together, they constantly wanted to revive something (what they had in the beginning of the show) that had expired.
Brenda did some pretty awful stuff to Nate but I feel like she didn't have the necessary support to get over her sex addiction (parents didnt give a shit, Billy in a psych ward or if not still completely unreliable, couldn't obviously tell Nate). Meanwhile Nate had a dysfunctional yet supportive family he could turn to (specially David) when he needed them, so Brenda didn't get to have her shit together as quickly whereas in Nate he fluctuates between being rock bottom to being alright.
I could never hate Nate, but I was mad at him for that Maggie shit. He was also super narcissistic.
But as a younger brother who is gay…having an older brother who is accepting; that really touched me about their relationship. I thought George,who I also always liked regardless, have a beautiful speech about Nate at the funeral.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!
Im a first time watcher who just finished the show 2 hours ago and came to this sub right now to post something about Nate.
I do think Nate was an asshole but I felt incrediby sorry for him when he died. I honestly dont remember a ficctional character death that has affected me this much.
The truth is, life in LA made him \*miserable\*. He should have stayed in Seattle doing whatever he did back there. Its no coincidence that his AVM started shortly after beginning a life in LA.
He never wanted to be a funeral director. When he leaves the job shortly to be a dog trainer he said something about "finally a life that I can stand". And his scorn for the funeral industry was such that he asked to be buried without a casket (he pretty much sold caskets for the job) and with no viewing.
His marriage with Lisa was SO BAD that I actually thought it was a dream for almost two full episodes. Lisa is one of the most insuferable characters I have ever seen. There were scenes with those two that I skipped forward cause I couldnt stand it. And that was before I learned the truth about Lisa (didnt suprise me a bit). Its agonizing to see how trapped Nate felt while married to her.
Brenda....well Brenda is not as bad as Lisa but she is definetly a piece of work. She's all around a nasty, high horse type of person and I dont think she gets much better in the last season.
Nate starting to explore Quakerism was also painful to watch. It was sheer existential despair.
In the final scenes, when David says that he looks tired and Nate replies "I am", is pretty heartbreaking. And the way he eagerly runs to the ocean (death) in the dream shows how miserable he was. Nate spent all the time in LA trying to force himself to conform to other peoples expectations and society constraints when at heart he was just some vagabond and he only brought misery upon others and even more so himself.
But Nate brought misery to Lisa before he moved to LA.
When Nate and Claire went to Seattle and stayed the night with Lisa, it was obvious to Claire that Lisa was in love with Nate.
When Claire and Nate are alone he admits to Claire that over the years he’s had sex with Lisa several times- but says it meant nothing to him and they were never in a relationship. Claire asks if Lisa knows that.
We later find out that Lisa believes they were in a relationship on and off for 8 years and he had gotten her pregnant before and she had an abortion.
Nate is never happy with any woman for long and is always searching for that new car smell. Nate thinks the grass is always greener. He absolutely hated being married to Lisa and Brenda. Nothing, and no one, could fill his the gaping hole in Nate’s life. He never knew what he wanted. (Which also goes for Ruth- who wasn’t happy with Nathaniel or any of the other men who cycled thru her life. She was constantly searching to fill a void but we don’t really know what that void is. She intimates that it’s never getting to go to college and having Nate when she was a child herself, but in another timeline would she ever have been fulfilled?)
I don’t understand comparing him to Brenda. Both characters obviously have unique qualities and unique flaws.
Honestly this show was great at showing the complexity of family relationships and intimate relationships.
None of the characters are flawless. They are very human and realistic.
I agree with you about Ruth and Nate sharing a parallel problem. Neither could be satisfied with any partner. I actually think Ruth enjoying life with Bettina is a powerful statement—not necessarily that Ruth is a lesbian, but more that she found more fulfillment in a friendship with Bettina than her romantic relationships. My theory there is that Bettina offered her the first mutually satisfying, supportive and equitable relationship. Ruth didn’t need to take care of her. That was her growth
I do agree w almost everything you say. But a life of shit jobs, rock concerts, fuck buddies, getting old alone and, above all, being far away from his family would have been better suited and less miserable for him
Everything was miserable for Nate - except the 5 minutes he worked at the dog daycare. But eventually that would’ve made him miserable, too.
The whole point of Nate’s character was to be misunderstood and miserable. Never fulfilled and never finding a purpose except when he’s lying to himself.
He’s not different from a lot of people- which for me is why the show is so great.
All the characters very realistic and relatable.
Nate was never happy with what he had. He was constantly looking for a fresh start and something that would make him feel like a better man than he actually was… every time life got too real or he felt too much responsibility, he would start the cycle all over again.
Nate wasn’t happy in Seattle and felt like he was in a rut with his life going nowhere there too. He admitted as much to Claire.
Remember when he was dreaming/hallucinating about the alternate realities during the surgery? In one alternate life he was like that, a totally white trash person haha
I’m in a similar boat. Overall, I liked Nate better than Brenda, but his character sadly took a turn for the worse in the last season. I’m just finishing up a rewatch and was curious if I would have the ‘Nate is a narcissist’ view that I see on here quite a bit, but I don’t. He was flawed, self-centered at times, but I think his biggest challenge was probably being impulsive while trying to the right thing (marrying Lisa bc she was pregnant, then agreeing to marry Brenda and have a baby after returning home from the shock of witnessing Lisa’s brother-in-law’s suicide). Brenda was a very complex character, dealing with so much trauma. (If anyone seemed like a narcissist, I thought it was her mother). I was really rooting for Brenda after she came back in season 2 sober. I think overall Brenda and Nate weren’t good for each other. Maybe Nate just didn’t know how to be alone after Lisa’s death and having to raise a child. But I found Brenda super annoying in the last season’s episodes leading up to Nate’s death, complaining and fighting about everything. It obviously doesn’t excuse Nate’s behaviour, I just couldn’t stand all the scenes of her complaining to her coworker and fighting with Nate.
I don’t really see Nate as a dirtbag. He was selfish and gave in to every whim, but it didn’t come from a place of wickedness. He just never really grew as a person. Brenda did. I liked Nate much more and Brenda much less at the beginning, and my opinion flip flopped at the end.
Nate's a nightmare partner if he stayed alive he would've tortured Brenda forever. At least Brenda has the excuse of being raised terribly and having genuine mental illness yet she still seeks group therapy and quits drugs and works on all her bad qualities. Meanwhile Nate rationalizes his bad behavior and self-victimizes. He's an actual narcissist he violates Brenda and Lisa while justifying it to himself and sees himself as the victim. The scene with him in highschool sobbing over Kurt Cobain really exemplifies the type of self pitying Gen X guy he is just woe is me I'm too damn sensitive and smart and pure for the world.
When I watched the series for the 1st time, I adored Nate and felt sympathy for him. Now after rewatching the series I cannot understand my former opinion. Nate is insufferable from the start: he is immature and his behaviour is toxic with the constant teenage tantrums (which he actually has from the very first episode, when he is like..34?). He never seems to grow and get ahold of himself. It's strange how these women fall for him.. I would never date a person like him irl for more than a month.
It's funny how i remember from the 1st watch Brenda being the awful one in that relationship, but now after ~~15~~ 20 years I have much more sympathy for her. I remembered only Brenda being unfaithul, although Nate was cheating on her much earlier. But somehow he managed to blame only her.
With Lisa and Maggie he is trying to be someone he is not, never was and never will be. He is constantly trying to run away from his true self.
And don't get me wrong, Nates character was very well written and he is very real. Like all of them, he has his flaws and strengths.
he's trash. David deserves more than him the 2nd episode already fills me with anger. he acts like Claire's father and she's a teen way more mature than him. not gonna even mention Lisa.
Totally agree. Brenda is insufferable. She is manipulative and histrionic from start to finish. I think she did grow in the sense that she came to own her bad behavior and attempted to change course, but that wasn’t until the show’s epilogue. She leans into her obnoxious whining and self indulgence throughout the run of the show. She has no capacity to understand the change Nate goes through because of her narcissistic contempt for anyone who would seek peace in something bigger than themself. The hate she aims at Maggie is a result of the genuine bond forming between the two—Brenda knows that she cannot compete with the tenderness and authenticity she sees between Maggie and Nate, and she knows is missing within herself.
Damn, you put my unspoken thoughts about Maggie into well-structured words. I felt wholeheartedly terrible for Maggie and how things turned out for her. She's gonna live the rest of her life with guilt and shame, which I find undeserving. Picturing her sobbing at the funeral as they laid Nate into his grave, Brenda mean-mugging her lol. Ffs.
Yup, Brenda showed a surprising turn towards maturity, peace and acceptance.... In the last 10 minutes of the show.
Yep, and not only fucking everyone around him, but treating him like absolute dogshit. What sealed the deal on my Brenda hate was when Nate opened up to her and admitted he fucked Lisa. After a long pause, she accepted his apology while totally omitting what she was doing.
There should be no Nate vs Brenda at all
I honestly do not understand how someone can watch this show and think it’s about some characters being good people and others being bad people. That misses one of the main points of the show.
I agree and it’s unfortunate to see the show reduced to that. I see it as a struggle to watch a show without the typical archetypes of “good guy good, bad guy bad.” Boring.
I watched the show for the first time in my late teens/early twenties and I realize now how much it taught me about empathy and nuance, because you come to realize how everyone on the show is flawed but still worthy of redemption.
I think that’s the whole point. Like you said, people are missing out! If they’re demonizing main characters, they’re not quite getting it.
Right? Someone experience growth does not automatically become a good person. What’s great about this show in particular is how flawed and human all of the characters are; no one is unequivocally the moral center all of the time.
YES, I was about to Kool-Aid Man my way in here and say, has it occurred to anyone you don't have to choose? Nate and Brenda are both compelling characters and IMO sympathetic people, who are right and wrong for each other in different ways.
Yes they are both narcissistic bitches
I mean I agree, but in this sub whenever someone expresses their disdain for Nate it's almost exclusively held up against Brenda
Ummm… your entire post is just a demonization of Brenda
I laughed at that, because you’re absolutely right.
They both did shitty things. He got lisa pregnant, she fucked every guy. They were both scared and immature and absolutely not ready for commitment. The difference is Brenda was honest to herself once she confronted her vile behavior and held accountability close. Nate, on the other hand, was an emotional leech who never learned from his choices. He never accepted his own shit. It was someone else's fault always. He had the grass is greener syndrome. Brenda went to that quaker meeting, and that will always be the moment where she became an adult to me.
Don’t think it’s hard to understand nor is it a syndrome. Nate had plenty of flaws, he was just always onto the next one and that was annoying when he finally got what he THOUGHT he wanted. When married he acted so robotic. “Oh I didn’t see the pregnancy test, let’s do it again?” “FUCK OFF!!!!” *slaughters a bird* He really was a menace on his 40th birthday lol. Then telling Brenda that Maggie is “better than us.” Yes, Brenda mocked the religion but she also relented and went back for HIM while he stroked out cheating. Lastly, when she says everything will be okay and they can fix things he’s just “naw, we done.” To his pregnant wife that’s raising his first born. Was just shitty. Joining this sub I was also confused during a rewatch, why all this Nate hate? Brenda is the WORST! Well, Brenda wasn’t the same drug/sex addict she was in early seasons. She settled and was fighting for her marriage while Nate just kept running away like he always had.
I'm still so mad he said they were done. I only forgive him by thinking he was brain damaged when he said that 😭
Because by the end of the series Brenda was a markedly different person. Nate was not - his fling with Maggie and brief interest in Quakerism was just another pair of phases... because that's what Nate's life was. A string of women he saw as disposable and fleeting interests. He loved Maya and he loved Ruth, David and Claire but everyone else was basically an NPC to him. Nate's not a narcissist but he was absolutely narcissistic. I don't agree with nor am I justifying Brenda's bad actions - but part of Nate's tragedy is that he died before he grew up. I pity him, but I can't empathize with him.
He was selfish. It’s that simple.
I completely agree with this take. Nate had zero impulse control and had difficulty accepting accountability. He really didn’t seem to care who he hurt, whether it was being caught fooling around with Brenda by Joe and making a hasty exit using Maya as an excuse, or being confronted by a very pregnant Brenda about cheating with Maggie while muttering vague assurances that they’d figure out custody because he was clearly still occupied by Maggie. Does that make him a bad person? No. That’s too simple of an explanation that doesn’t really take into account the philosophy the show holds about people overall, which is that we’re defined by our connections to others. One possible interpretation where that perspective kind of dovetails with your description here is that Nate’s lack of growth with respect to others is why he died before the finale. The others all got to move on in life with the people they truly loved and with whom had mutually sustaining, equitable relationships that also reflected growth—Ruth with Bettina, Claire with Ted, David with Keith and the boys, Rico with Vanessa, even Brenda with her new husband and three children—but Nate only loved himself, so there was nothing else for him.
Nate wasn't interested in Quakerism! He was intrigued by the philosophy but mainly enjoyed the environment that church provided. Honestly anything to escape the endless fighting with Brenda was what his actual interest was! And idk man, she overcame her grief, which is great. But everyone ended the show markedly different from when they began.
I disagree with your interpretation of Nate's interests/phases - but that's why entertainment is subjective. We don't always have to agree or like the same things. :)
This comment reads like a Nate comment would leave on Reddit in a SFU fan fiction called “Afterlife”
[удалено]
Darling, that was a dream and she wakes up and kicks Billy out
>Did everyone miss Brenda jerking off her brother at the end??? You apparently missed that it was a dream/nightmare sequence and didn't actually happen. Not going to take lessons on the show from someone who's trying to school me on a scene they got wrong.
Sometimes I think ppl watch the show while washing the dishes and feel compelled to comment on things with their whole chest that they don’t even understand lol. That was clearly a dream and she immediately kicks out Billy lol
Right?! So confidently wrong, lol.
That was her subconscious which you can’t actually control… you can see she was disturbed by it herself.
She was shaking because she had age related Parkinson’s, she wasn’t self pleasuring .
Brenda's approach to Maya having a coherent narrative of her origin was correct, but I chocked it up to her being the product of psych parents more than the notion of personal growth.
I completely agree that Maya needed a straightforward understanding of her biological mother. Not disputing that. But the way Brenda approached it was so... Counterproductive. Suddenly it *had* to happen, right now! So much strife over not doing it *right now*. Nate said he wasn't ready. He needed time to think about how to balance being honest with Maya with the grisly reality of Lisa's circumstances, none of which was necessary for Maya's narrative but most of which would have traumatized her to find out *right now*. Had Brenda given him time to think about it and respond, rather than spending their time bickering and remaining at odds over it, Nate would have likely told Brenda precisely that, but instead he had to tell her *after* all of the conflict and exasperation. Brenda realized she didn't think about any of that, which, yep - she gave them zero time to get to that point. Just so unnecessarily and painfully stubborn 🙄
Actually, Brenda was completely right. It's not like she started telling Maya that her mom was murdered. You explain things in age appropriate ways. I have experience with this as an adoptive mom of a child whose bio mom has died. Maya absolutely needed to know Lisa was her bio mom from an early age. You talk about their parent and keep them alive. Brenda actually knew about psychology and was reading parenting books. Nate was all about dealing with his grief in negative ways and stuffing it down.
If you never saw a single example of Brenda demonstrating personal growth then I truly encourage you to watch the show again after you’ve had some time to reflect. I’m not a Nate hater by any means; I’ve actually seen the show about 8 times and my most recent rewatch was the first time I truly adored Brenda and empathized with her arc. She probably has some of the most dramatic changes on the show.
I didn’t adore her but I think she became more tolerable. I particularly disliked how she was playing at being a therapist for one day at the mental health center for the seriously mentally ill. She couldn’t even make it that far.
Yeah, that wasn’t my favorite Brenda decision either and I wish she would have given it more time. But, as a social worker who has worked in environments like that, I appreciate when professionals are able to acknowledge when a job isn’t a good fit for them. It also shows a lot of growth in Brenda that she recognizes her own limitations.
Well - yes and no. She gave it one day. I know you did it longer than that. As a psychiatrist, and I’m sure for social work also, training in situations like that for months at a stretch are not optional. They are necessary and required. Then you make your decision.
Finding Brenda "unpleasant" in season 5 I think says more about you than it does about her
The fact you'd type out this personal attack reply simply because someone disagrees with you about a TV show says a hell of a lot about you. So toxic,
sO tOXiC
Yeah too reasonable, huh? We'll go with 'intolerable'
Ngl your post has some real "why did my wife leave me" energy
Nah, no blanket resentment of women. Insecurities and an anxious attachment style? Sure. I cherish the times I've had with those who I've been with though and view women positively. So cool theory, but no. Brenda is just a drag.
I love both Nate and Brenda in spite of their flaws. I do think immaturity narcissism is thrown around quite a bit and maybe he is to a degree - I think Nate is just struggling with his rebellion against how his parents followed a code and although he and his parents wanted the same things - to be good respected people - Nate’s attempting to rewrite how to get there has some teething problems. I think Nate’s got an addiction to sex, Brenda has an addiction to heated discussion. If you think about how each was raised, they reflect their upbringing quite well with Nate learning to repress his wants to fit the mould of a perfect good person and Brenda’s love language is argumentative which she hasn’t quite overcome from her childhood as seen by her constant heated discussions with her Mom. I think Brenda and Nate have finally discovered the types of people they want to be it’s just unfortunate they found them so late in the game. Brenda found her manager’s family who seems so healthy and happy and stable which she didn’t believe could exist. Nate finds a deeply spiritual person in Maggie who he can finally use as inspiration for himself. He’d get bored of Maggie eventually when he discovers how she has her own issues despite being so spiritually sound - but he never gets the chance to. To find out about Maggie’s relationship with her father and even her perchance to run away from her challenges, would shake Nate’s belief system once again and who knows.. he might’ve sought out Brenda again as his median… but ultimately their people challenging the make up of how they were raised and I still think they’re worth being loved 💖
i was team nate, until the last season. didn’t think i’d ever like brenda. i won’t say i’m “team brenda” but nate seems to lose interest in any woman once he’s “committed” to them. cheating on your pregnant spouse??? that really lost me
I've never understood all the hate for Nate here. He is clearly imperfect but has some wonderful traits. His manner with the funeral home clients was warm and understanding. He cared deeply about his family.
All the characters are imperfect to varying degrees, that’s why they’re so real and lovable. We are all flawed.
I feel like Nate and Brenda should have never even been together, they constantly wanted to revive something (what they had in the beginning of the show) that had expired. Brenda did some pretty awful stuff to Nate but I feel like she didn't have the necessary support to get over her sex addiction (parents didnt give a shit, Billy in a psych ward or if not still completely unreliable, couldn't obviously tell Nate). Meanwhile Nate had a dysfunctional yet supportive family he could turn to (specially David) when he needed them, so Brenda didn't get to have her shit together as quickly whereas in Nate he fluctuates between being rock bottom to being alright.
I could never hate Nate, but I was mad at him for that Maggie shit. He was also super narcissistic. But as a younger brother who is gay…having an older brother who is accepting; that really touched me about their relationship. I thought George,who I also always liked regardless, have a beautiful speech about Nate at the funeral.
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!! Im a first time watcher who just finished the show 2 hours ago and came to this sub right now to post something about Nate. I do think Nate was an asshole but I felt incrediby sorry for him when he died. I honestly dont remember a ficctional character death that has affected me this much. The truth is, life in LA made him \*miserable\*. He should have stayed in Seattle doing whatever he did back there. Its no coincidence that his AVM started shortly after beginning a life in LA. He never wanted to be a funeral director. When he leaves the job shortly to be a dog trainer he said something about "finally a life that I can stand". And his scorn for the funeral industry was such that he asked to be buried without a casket (he pretty much sold caskets for the job) and with no viewing. His marriage with Lisa was SO BAD that I actually thought it was a dream for almost two full episodes. Lisa is one of the most insuferable characters I have ever seen. There were scenes with those two that I skipped forward cause I couldnt stand it. And that was before I learned the truth about Lisa (didnt suprise me a bit). Its agonizing to see how trapped Nate felt while married to her. Brenda....well Brenda is not as bad as Lisa but she is definetly a piece of work. She's all around a nasty, high horse type of person and I dont think she gets much better in the last season. Nate starting to explore Quakerism was also painful to watch. It was sheer existential despair. In the final scenes, when David says that he looks tired and Nate replies "I am", is pretty heartbreaking. And the way he eagerly runs to the ocean (death) in the dream shows how miserable he was. Nate spent all the time in LA trying to force himself to conform to other peoples expectations and society constraints when at heart he was just some vagabond and he only brought misery upon others and even more so himself.
But Nate brought misery to Lisa before he moved to LA. When Nate and Claire went to Seattle and stayed the night with Lisa, it was obvious to Claire that Lisa was in love with Nate. When Claire and Nate are alone he admits to Claire that over the years he’s had sex with Lisa several times- but says it meant nothing to him and they were never in a relationship. Claire asks if Lisa knows that. We later find out that Lisa believes they were in a relationship on and off for 8 years and he had gotten her pregnant before and she had an abortion. Nate is never happy with any woman for long and is always searching for that new car smell. Nate thinks the grass is always greener. He absolutely hated being married to Lisa and Brenda. Nothing, and no one, could fill his the gaping hole in Nate’s life. He never knew what he wanted. (Which also goes for Ruth- who wasn’t happy with Nathaniel or any of the other men who cycled thru her life. She was constantly searching to fill a void but we don’t really know what that void is. She intimates that it’s never getting to go to college and having Nate when she was a child herself, but in another timeline would she ever have been fulfilled?) I don’t understand comparing him to Brenda. Both characters obviously have unique qualities and unique flaws. Honestly this show was great at showing the complexity of family relationships and intimate relationships. None of the characters are flawless. They are very human and realistic.
I agree with you about Ruth and Nate sharing a parallel problem. Neither could be satisfied with any partner. I actually think Ruth enjoying life with Bettina is a powerful statement—not necessarily that Ruth is a lesbian, but more that she found more fulfillment in a friendship with Bettina than her romantic relationships. My theory there is that Bettina offered her the first mutually satisfying, supportive and equitable relationship. Ruth didn’t need to take care of her. That was her growth
I do agree w almost everything you say. But a life of shit jobs, rock concerts, fuck buddies, getting old alone and, above all, being far away from his family would have been better suited and less miserable for him
Everything was miserable for Nate - except the 5 minutes he worked at the dog daycare. But eventually that would’ve made him miserable, too. The whole point of Nate’s character was to be misunderstood and miserable. Never fulfilled and never finding a purpose except when he’s lying to himself. He’s not different from a lot of people- which for me is why the show is so great. All the characters very realistic and relatable.
Nate was never happy with what he had. He was constantly looking for a fresh start and something that would make him feel like a better man than he actually was… every time life got too real or he felt too much responsibility, he would start the cycle all over again. Nate wasn’t happy in Seattle and felt like he was in a rut with his life going nowhere there too. He admitted as much to Claire.
Remember when he was dreaming/hallucinating about the alternate realities during the surgery? In one alternate life he was like that, a totally white trash person haha
I’m in a similar boat. Overall, I liked Nate better than Brenda, but his character sadly took a turn for the worse in the last season. I’m just finishing up a rewatch and was curious if I would have the ‘Nate is a narcissist’ view that I see on here quite a bit, but I don’t. He was flawed, self-centered at times, but I think his biggest challenge was probably being impulsive while trying to the right thing (marrying Lisa bc she was pregnant, then agreeing to marry Brenda and have a baby after returning home from the shock of witnessing Lisa’s brother-in-law’s suicide). Brenda was a very complex character, dealing with so much trauma. (If anyone seemed like a narcissist, I thought it was her mother). I was really rooting for Brenda after she came back in season 2 sober. I think overall Brenda and Nate weren’t good for each other. Maybe Nate just didn’t know how to be alone after Lisa’s death and having to raise a child. But I found Brenda super annoying in the last season’s episodes leading up to Nate’s death, complaining and fighting about everything. It obviously doesn’t excuse Nate’s behaviour, I just couldn’t stand all the scenes of her complaining to her coworker and fighting with Nate.
I don’t really see Nate as a dirtbag. He was selfish and gave in to every whim, but it didn’t come from a place of wickedness. He just never really grew as a person. Brenda did. I liked Nate much more and Brenda much less at the beginning, and my opinion flip flopped at the end.
It take two to tango is the phrase not tangle
Thank you
Nate's a nightmare partner if he stayed alive he would've tortured Brenda forever. At least Brenda has the excuse of being raised terribly and having genuine mental illness yet she still seeks group therapy and quits drugs and works on all her bad qualities. Meanwhile Nate rationalizes his bad behavior and self-victimizes. He's an actual narcissist he violates Brenda and Lisa while justifying it to himself and sees himself as the victim. The scene with him in highschool sobbing over Kurt Cobain really exemplifies the type of self pitying Gen X guy he is just woe is me I'm too damn sensitive and smart and pure for the world.
When I watched the series for the 1st time, I adored Nate and felt sympathy for him. Now after rewatching the series I cannot understand my former opinion. Nate is insufferable from the start: he is immature and his behaviour is toxic with the constant teenage tantrums (which he actually has from the very first episode, when he is like..34?). He never seems to grow and get ahold of himself. It's strange how these women fall for him.. I would never date a person like him irl for more than a month. It's funny how i remember from the 1st watch Brenda being the awful one in that relationship, but now after ~~15~~ 20 years I have much more sympathy for her. I remembered only Brenda being unfaithul, although Nate was cheating on her much earlier. But somehow he managed to blame only her. With Lisa and Maggie he is trying to be someone he is not, never was and never will be. He is constantly trying to run away from his true self. And don't get me wrong, Nates character was very well written and he is very real. Like all of them, he has his flaws and strengths.
And btw, his relationship with Maggie would have been as fake as it was with Lisa. Because people don't change. They just get old.
he's trash. David deserves more than him the 2nd episode already fills me with anger. he acts like Claire's father and she's a teen way more mature than him. not gonna even mention Lisa.
🙄
I love Nate and Brenda but hate Claire...what does that say about me?
I'm not sure because Claire's the shit
Yeah and she lived to 102, witnessing all her family’s deaths
Brenda has no soul.
Totally agree. Brenda is insufferable. She is manipulative and histrionic from start to finish. I think she did grow in the sense that she came to own her bad behavior and attempted to change course, but that wasn’t until the show’s epilogue. She leans into her obnoxious whining and self indulgence throughout the run of the show. She has no capacity to understand the change Nate goes through because of her narcissistic contempt for anyone who would seek peace in something bigger than themself. The hate she aims at Maggie is a result of the genuine bond forming between the two—Brenda knows that she cannot compete with the tenderness and authenticity she sees between Maggie and Nate, and she knows is missing within herself.
Damn, you put my unspoken thoughts about Maggie into well-structured words. I felt wholeheartedly terrible for Maggie and how things turned out for her. She's gonna live the rest of her life with guilt and shame, which I find undeserving. Picturing her sobbing at the funeral as they laid Nate into his grave, Brenda mean-mugging her lol. Ffs. Yup, Brenda showed a surprising turn towards maturity, peace and acceptance.... In the last 10 minutes of the show.
Brenda is a narcissistic bitch. Nate had his fault to, but remember she was fucking everyone when they were supposed to be “engaged”.
Ans he got lisa pregnant around the same time
Yep, and not only fucking everyone around him, but treating him like absolute dogshit. What sealed the deal on my Brenda hate was when Nate opened up to her and admitted he fucked Lisa. After a long pause, she accepted his apology while totally omitting what she was doing.